 C'est le prof de l'extrême force de Dibian, et nous avons ici Julien Clisseau, qui est principalement le prof de l'extrême force de Dibian. S'il vous plait. Bonne matin. J'ai caduré ce prof, parce que j'ai travaillé dans l'extrême force de 7 ou 8 ans maintenant, je pense. Et j'ai essayé de réduire mon involvement pendant les dernières années, et de trouver plus de personnes pour travailler sur ces packages. Et donc j'ai voulu avoir un feel pour pourquoi vous ne voulez pas travailler sur ces packages. Et si vous avez des questions sur comment cela fonctionne et ce qu'il faut faire. Donc, apparemment, l'extrême force de Dibian, maintenant, a un peu de 160 packages en stabilité, donc il y a différents types de packages, il y a des hauteurs protocoliques, il y a des hauteurs protocoliques, comme l'extrême force de Dibian, il y a l'extrême force de Dibian, évidemment, et tous les voitures qui passent autour de ça. Et puis, il y a Mesa, qui porte un 3D, et tous les voitures autour du hardware 3D. Et puis il y a un nombre d'apps, que ce soit des démons ou des petites utilités. Et des compétences, mais vous verrez que ce n'est pas en stabilité, ce n'est pas en test. Et il y a un peu d'articles. Un d'entre eux n'est pas capable d'appliquer. Oui, donc compétences n'est pas beaucoup. Parce qu'à un moment, il y a des gens qui sont intéressés en compétences, et en gardant les types, et puis, ce n'est pas possible. Et personne n'est pas capable d'appliquer. Il est sorti une fois en compétences, et puis, il est mort. C'est probablement la même version de packages en compétences et en cils. On devrait probablement les retirer bientôt. Ce qu'on est en train de faire, c'est d'avoir un desktop en deviant, ce qui fonctionne très bien avec les compétences. Est-ce que l'app Stream est encore active pour les compétences? Est-ce que l'app Stream est encore active? Ou est-ce que c'est un projet de déprocation? Je n'ai aucune idée si c'est active ou non. C'est peut-être intéressant pour les compétences de packages, qui ont juste été installées. Je ne sais pas. Je pense que, à un moment, Canonical a acheté un des gars de compétences pour travailler sur Unity. Je ne sais pas si c'était mort avant ou si ça l'a tué. Et qu'est-ce qu'il y a? C'est bien. Il y a beaucoup de libraires de protocoles. Beaucoup d'entre eux l'ont lu sur cette page d'EPO parce que ce spring, je pense, il y avait beaucoup de séries pour les libraires de protocoles. Il y avait 20 packages dans un grand dame de fixations de sécurité. Et puis, oui, Mesa et un bunch d'apples, les protocoles, et les servis et les libraires. Comment beaucoup de libraires? C'est une des choses que je pense de faire pour Jesse, c'est de faire attention à beaucoup de libraires pour un hardware qui n'a pas élevé pendant 15 ans. Parce que, oui, j'ai 740, je ne sais pas. Exo, il éleve ce truc. Il les éleve pour... Pour l'input, on a élevé beaucoup de libraires qui disent qu'ils ont déjà un libraire de kernel et qu'ils utilisent Fdev. Pour l'input, nous sommes dans Fdev, Synaptics, Wacom, et peut-être Joystick, qui, oui, c'est un nombre raisonnable de libraires, mais pour le vidéo, c'est comme 20. Probablement 3 de ces libraires sont utilisés, et le reste, c'est juste de plus en plus. C'est vrai, oui. Donc, il y a des gens qui travaillent... Il y a des gens qui s'involent dans les libraires qui sont concentrés sur un libraire, parce qu'ils ont un hardware qui est intéressant de garder le code à date. Donc, maintenant, c'est le cas pour Nouveau, principalement. Je pense que QXL, aussi, c'est le chauffeur d'inside-space. Il y a aussi un maintien dédicatif, mais tout autre, c'est quand on rentre, et donc, oui, avant cette semaine, personne d'autre, le chauffeur, a été abdéuté depuis... le WC-Freeze, ce qui veut dire que si vous voulez utiliser un nouveau hardware pour Radeon ou Intel, donc, oui, j'ai été un peu intentionnellement gardé sur l'abdéutation, en essayant de voir si les gens se battent et disent, ok, j'ai besoin d'une nouvelle version de ce chauffeur, et puis je pouvais dire, oh, merci pour la volunteer, tiens-moi, je n'ai pas travaillé aussi bien, donc, oui. On utilise, un peu sur le packaging, on utilise la gîte pour tout ça, upstream, et donc, on update le change log, peut-être des dépendances, et vous allez y aller. On fait un peu de patchs, mais je pense que la plupart des patchs sont backpots pour upstream, ce qui signifie que quand la nouvelle version est élevée, généralement, ça signifie que toutes les patchs que vous avez élevées se disparaissent. Donc, généralement, ça signifie que toutes les patchs que vous avez élevées se disparaissent. Ce n'est pas difficile d'acheter un access upstream. Quand vous avez envoyé un peu de patchs, les gens sont fiers de les jouer pour vous, donc ils disent, oh, prenez un compte. Et, oui, upstream c'est bien de travailler avec, donc, il n'y a pas vraiment d'issues sur la frontière. Ce qui fait du temps d'essayer c'est ceci, parce que il y a beaucoup de patchs et les comptes s'étendent régulièrement, et ce n'est pas un bon travail. Donc, basically all the important bugs except the ones for companies get handle pretty quickly but for everything else we mainly say well, don't reply because there's no time or when we reply we say ok file this bug upstream for some cases that works but many of the components are not really actively maintained upstream, which means the bug just stay there just like there's a pile of X bugs on free desktop.org that just sit there waiting for somebody to be motivated enough to fix them. Yeah, so we should probably find a way to close all of these old bugs because they're just noise that doesn't help anyone ok so I guess now I have a question for you why are you not part of the extract force ok, so maybe a question for Mikele why are you part of the extract force wait wait for the mic maybe can I ask answer before since I I'm not part of the extract force and the motivation is that if I were part of all the teams that in these days have asked me why you're not part of this team yet I would be part of nothing I couldn't have the time to do everything actually I would be you sleep right, you could stop doing that oh yes, I'm still part of the sleeping team ok so I decided to join the team because my laptop has an invidia card with the optimus thing in there and I want to have the latest xserver so I went on the IRC and I asked is it going to be uploaded and they say if you do something yes so I just started to work on it and yeah, that's it so everyone's in a bite, somebody bites that's nice Ben? I thought you were ok so I'm not actually a member of the extract force but I've done an upload of western recently because what I am is I am upstream x2go which is a sort of terminal service solution for UNIX terminal service and we use this really old and buggy fork called NX which is from no machine and we are currently heavily exploring alternatives like testing western with a free RDP back end that's pretty fresh in western so basically what I'm sitting here is being interested in what other technologies do we have for remote access over the network x over the network that scales well that can cope with high latency and that so and then I'm particularly interested in western and in x Wales and having that in Debian not if it works with free RDP in the back end but that would be cool so that's my interest here so I have a question for you of the disaster in bug counting here how much of it is for stale drivers that we aren't actually actively maintaining and how much of it is for packages that aren't directly related to x like whale and western comp is that kind of stuff you have any way of getting an idea of what the bug count is in the relevant packages I mean we have 3 video drivers 3 input drivers in the core server and so I guess it's around 100 for Intel right exactly many of those are probably like fixed because they are from the squeeze days or something that is still open because nobody is bothered to close them yet ATI might be a bit less I mean one easy thing to do to reduce the number of packages here is to just focus the x strike force on the x window system itself and you know shed some of the packages that are definitely unrelated that's the ATI driver yeah that's the ATI driver so we are up to over 100 yep and Nouveau is probably around the same ballpark as well yeah video drivers are always going to have reported bugs in them because video hardware is broken yeah and then there are bugs that are filed against the server as well but yeah it's for the server there are the mix of relevant bugs and some that are not so much right possibly many of the x server bugs are also driver bugs it's not that bad actually really good I expected more so like how many bugs are in comp is it's a package that nobody should be maintaining certainly not the x fork force it's a package that nobody is maintaining yeah so I think yeah also yes 77 bugs 81 bugs yeah a surprisingly small number considering how well maintained the packages yeah it's also not used so yeah it's yeah packages that have no users tend to not get that many bugs so yeah amount of like 1400 bugs maybe 3 or 400 needs somebody to look at them maybe half of them can be just closed because they are too old and probably fixed already and then yeah so that's I mean but you still need on an ongoing basis to reply to bug that get filed against the video drivers and then get the information that's needed to to allow the user to push them upstream and have the upstream developers look at them which isn't ongoing work that if you don't do it for a few months then you get backlogged and it's even harder to you know come back and fix that maybe the way to go would be to just when a bug is more than like 6 months old without being touched by anybody to just close it because it's not helping but do you have any documentation on what what one should should provide upstream so what we should actually ask the bug reporter that would help upstream fix the bugs Intel has that documentation so they they used to be easy to remember URL for it now they move it to some other site that Intel Linux Graphics it moves from IntelLinuxGraphics.org to 0.1.org and then and without working redirects so yeah but basically you need the kernel kernel log xlog and if it's a hang then you get this file in debugFS that attache the last command sent to the hardware before it is hung so that you can figure out from that set of commands what triggered the crash so most of that for at least the kernel and xlog we have a report bug hook that attaches them to the bug report so usually we manage to get most of the information in the initial report but then sometimes people either remove it or report from another machine or report with the wrong log that doesn't have the relevant information and then but in many cases the bug handling is ok I received this bug, I asked the submitter to move it to free desktop.org and or I reassigned it to Ben and he gets to handle it or both of those at the same time because sometimes the bugs clearly in the kernel and not in the x part of the driver yeah I mean the Intel driver in particular they're not using SNA there's almost no code there anymore you wouldn't expect there to be 100 bugs in something which is basically a pass through to either to the kernel yeah most of those that aren't like fixed for a year or two are probably kernel bugs but then somebody needs to handle DRM on the kernel side and I'm not sure anybody does that in other matter currently we're in about the same situation and bug counts on the kernel team and we have periods of people heroically going through large numbers of bugs and trying to deal with them and we also have long periods of bugs so some basically when we do deal with both in DRM they're going to be forward to upstream unless it's obviously we're very nice to something that's been effected recently so one thing we did do for Wheezy was so Wheezy shipped with a 3.2 kernel but we shipped the 3.4 DRM in that kernel because so we asked the Intel and Radeon developers what they thought would be a good base and I think both replied 3.4 and we had issues with the send bridge I think hangs or I think we still do and there's a patch I think with the back port we changed from having hangs on some subset of machines to another which is kind of typical for but now there is one specific patch that I applied in 3.2 that I shouldn't have and that's going to be reverted ok I guess that improved or that added some support for some hardware but we don't have what we are saying on the other day that we don't have yet a good story for how to keep updating that for new graphic hardware in stable but at least the kernel in unstable is always updated I think which helps but we hadn't updated Mesa from I don't know 8 that shipped in Wheezy to 9 until like earlier this year a few month ago so given that the stable releases and the distribution media are always lagging new hardware obviously it seems like one of the critical issues facing installation of Debian is making sure that stable will run on newer hardware and that stable will correctly say oh this hardware is not supported by this environment we need to use some fallback graphics mode visa fb dev something it does because if there is no support for the hardware it will use probably visa is that working? I haven't tested it a long time I mean sometimes the driver claims to support the hardware but it actually doesn't can happen I can't do much about that because often times when I'm doing an install I have to make sure that I use a text mode install because the kernel is going to come up but then X doesn't start so the installer the installer's graphical mode uses visa fb and the fb dev x driver because you don't want to I mean you don't need acceleration during your installation you don't need like multiple monitor support so on a uefi device what do we do in that environment I guess if I fb I don't know not sure but that's what I would expect we don't ship any other video driver than fb dev inside the installer right I haven't, yeah I've been bitten so often by the graphical installer that I haven't even tried it in the last year or so anything else you guys want to know or any other comment ok thank you thank you Julien