 Chair Jones-Carter it's 430 if you'd like to call the meeting order. It is 430 PM and I'm calling this meeting of the design review board to order Recording secretary, can you please call roll? Board member Cook is absent board member Liptec here board member Sharon is absent Board member Wolfridge here Vice chair Weigel here chair Jones Carter here Let the record reflect that all board members are present with the exception of board member Cook and board member Sharon I would like to open public comment on non-agenda items We are now taking public comment on items that are non-agenda matters This is the time when any person may address the board on matters not related to this agenda But which are within the subject matter jurisdiction of this committee Should I wait for a clock or can I just get started if you just wait a few seconds about a good time, okay? All right These address please announce yourself. Hello. My name is Dwayne D. Witt. I'm with the Sonoma County Housing Advocacy Group But I'm out of Roseland and that was before we got annexed into the city I'm very glad that you folks are volunteering for this position And I'm very glad that you'll be reading the statement of purpose in a moment I'm hopeful that one of the things that you'll begin to do is take on the seriousness of the role of you folks being our bulwark if you will against Misinformation that may come forward on the idea of resiliency and sustainability Those two words have basically been used for a while now Stating that they are the city's policy and yet I don't see them here in Any document that we can read to look at to see city policy statements? We don't see the city's design guidelines Perhaps you folks could get those things here in the room for us at these meetings So we'll be able to refer to them during the discussions to make sure that we are able to be fully informed and a part of the decision-making process on what may come forward This is especially important now because for seven years almost We've been using the Tubbs fire as the reason why we have to build housing I'm all for building lots of housing build build build, but downtown downtown downtown That's where it needs to be it needs to be in the center of the city to have it be a sustainable resilient downtown area Unfortunately, what's been happening in my area of Roseland they've been pushing the housing out to the very farthest edges of the city's limits And now they want to go further south down along what they call South Santa Rosa Santa Rosa Avenue Morland Avenue and X more push more thousands of housing units in and we've already reached carrying capacity That's a little term for you don't have enough infrastructure for all the traffic That's being generated by the thousands of people that are using the roadways to get to the new housing that you're building And most of this new housing that's coming into Roseland isn't being occupied by Roseland residents I've been asking around and most of those folks are coming from out of the area Because it's cheaper to live here than it is in Alameda County or San Francisco County or Marin County So I'm hoping that you folks at design review will take all this type of information into consideration and Look at things because the city has told us for Geez two decades. It seems that we're going to be a city-centered resilient Sustainable town the way to do that is to build up 10 story buildings 12 story buildings downtown get them going that's how mr. Futrell got the ATT building because he was going to put housing in there still waiting on that. Thank you for your time Thank you Item 2.1 the statement of purpose zoning code chapter 20 dash 52 030 f project review The review authority shall consider the location design site plan configuration and the overall effect of the proposed project on Pond surrounding properties and the city in general Review shall be conducted by comparing the proposed project to the general plan in the applicable specific plan applicable zoning code standards and requirements Consistency of the project within the city's design guidelines architectural criteria for special areas and other ethical city requirements It's using Item 3 statements of extension. Do we have any? Seeing none item 4. We're moving on to the first scheduled item 4.1 concept design review lands drive housing development 0 1601 1680 1696 and 1705 lands drive dr. 23 dash 044 Presented by Connor McKay senior planner. Are there any ex-parties disclosure disclosures on this item? Seeing none Connor Thank You chair Jones cutter members of the board I'm gonna share my screen here How's everybody doing I'm really happy to be here this afternoon to present the concept design review for the Lance Drive housing development project One second let me clean up my screen here So the purpose of this concept design review It's required pursuant to chapter 2016 the resilient city development measures more on that later and Ultimately this is an opportunity for the designer view board to make recommendations related to the projects design components as they exist right now in a conceptual manner So the conceptual development proposal at this time is 672 multifamily residential units and associated amenities across 25 buildings There also includes a small lot single family dwelling component of the project consisting of 100 lots Finally at the corner of Lance Drive in Grinville Road There's a proposed 4,800 square feet of community serving retail and outdoor plaza Regated regarding the parking up to 1524 total parking spaces are proposed There would be approximately 1.87 spaces per unit for the apartment component of the project and 1.9 spaces per unit for the single family dwellings As I mentioned this project is required to Perform the concept design review at the DRB this afternoon because it is located in the north station area Priority development area which makes it eligible for reduced review authority before the zoning administrator So after this afternoon's concept design review the project would be required to submit a minor design review application and Small lot subdivision and tentative map entitlements and those Last two entitlements would be reviewed by the planning commission where the design minor design review is Qualifies for review by the zoning administrator However, the director can elevate that review to the design review board if it deems necessary Here we have neighborhood context pulled from the project plan set that is included in your packet just generally you can see it's in the northwest portion of the City of Santa Rosa Near the Santa Rosa north smart station it's directly east of Constock middle school and the community park there as well Here we have an aerial as you can see the project site is Predominantly undeveloped with some single family residential in the small two skinny parcels near the center of the project site The currently the access point is Lance Drive General plan and zoning this is an interesting project site because there's split designations of general plan and zoning districts I'd also like to note that the table on the left does not include the commercially designated and the commercial zone zoning district at the corner of Lance Drive and Bernville Road Where the 4,800 square feet of community serving retail and the community Plaza are proposed to be located? Strictly speaking the concept design review action is not a project pursuant to the California Environmental Quality Act And is therefore exempt from that provision in August of 2022 the project had a neighborhood meeting we had 53 attendees and I've listed their Summarized concerns on this slide. You also received all the public comments that we've received Regarding this project in your packet and then also I'd like to like to note that in addition to the late correspondence that you received today After that was distributed. We received four emails actually in support of the project so with that there's my contact and then the Applicant is here to really go over the design and the site layout and things of the actual the nuts and bolts of the project So I'm available if you'd like to ask any questions about the concept design review process the resilient city measures Or anything kind of on the city side If there are no questions, I'll pull up the applicant presentation Yes, so I just I'm going to go into a little bit more detail in the concept design review So we have not received a formal application for this project yet This is a required first step in an eventual formal application and this provides the DRB with the opportunity to look at the concept as it exists right now what the Applicant is thinking about developing and ultimately it would result in a better informed project because the applicant have the opportunity to consult with our designer view board and receive recommendations and Respond any questions about what they're thinking I Want to chime in a little bit as well There are three pre application meetings that staff works with the applicant on one is where staff facilitates conversation between the applicant and the neighbors another one is conversation between the applicant and staff looking at you know engineering and water and all that stuff and then And the permit process and then the third is a facilitated discussion between the application or applicant and the design review board And that's where we are tonight And again, I'll say no analysis or almost no analysis has gone into this project so far Thank you Hey, Susie, um did the applicant? So it sounds like they did a neighborhood meeting, but did they actually do a pre-app meeting with city staff? You don't have to do it right you can kind of skip it correct the city met with the previous development team for this project and We provided the comments that we provided to that team to this team so for their purposes I feel like they've kind of checked that box And the only reason concept design review is required here is because they're in a priority development area And they're opting to go through the zoning the reduced review authority design review If they if they wanted to forego the concept design review and go through the standard design review process They could the neighborhood meeting is required. Thank you We have the applicant presentation I'm really quick before the applicant makes their presentation the current developer team actually did do a separate pre-app with city staff So I was incorrect in that Thank you That podium will raise so that the mic is closer to you. I believe I Think of my oh Yes Thank you. I think that seems like that's probably okay. Yes Just make sure you speak loud enough so that the recording can pick up your voice. Okay. Well. Thank you very much I'll raise a little bit more. I'm Ron Metzger. I'm design principal at LPAS architects I'm here with Chris Kelly from our office. He's the managing principal for our office and Michael Millett. He's our landscape architect I'm also here with Sean Murphy and Andrew Rosenberg from Pacific Development. They are the project applicant And we're all here and we can answer any questions that you might have as we go forward So let's get into it So as Connor mentioned, you know, the site is fairly centrally located. It's a really a great site. It's 34 vacant air vacant part 34 acre a vacant parcel And it's surrounded by development. So it's a very good infill site It's centrally located with close proximity to retail to parks schools and transit So it's really the ideal kind of residential site It's also indicated in the general plan as a a forehousing and so this project will really make a dent in the city's housing goal of 4,685 additional homes This as Connor mentioned, there's three land use designations ranging from 18 dwelling units to the acre to 30 units to the acre And so we're kind of in the middle there when we look at a blended element. If we go to the next slide This slide shows the kind of a closer look to the northeast are Multifamily development with townhomes and condominiums to the south across Grenville Road or single-family homes on the south side of the site but on the same side of Grenville Road is a large PG need substation and a church the most of the west side of the site is a public open space in terms of the soccer field and School and then to the north or single-family homes and what we've tried to do is we've developed this project is integrated into the fabric of the neighborhood To the extent possible have buildings front directly on to the street to create a nice street edge extend public streets through the project where possible and That sort of thing. There's a few things that you should know in terms of the development of the site in terms of constraints There's a large PG need power easement that runs north south and so There's kind of a couple rows of buildings on the west and then there's a gap between that and Going forward that is because there's two large Overhead power line easements. There's a natural gas line and there's sewer lines that are going to go through there So what we can actually do in that area is relatively limited And so we've been working around that In terms of the edges I mentioned we've tried to put buildings on to the street Along the north edge. We've rotated the single-family lots sideways so that you don't have homes looking with their primary windows into the neighbors along the Substation we would like to screen those to the extent possible with evergreen trees In the terms of the site organization we've tried to also create a lot of connectivity both from a pedestrian standpoint with open space and Walkways that connect through the entire project and also vehicular Connections to the project We envision this project being built in over seven eight years in three phases So as the phase one is 396 units it's in the southeast kind of that wedge-shaped shaped piece along Gurnville Road It also has the 4,800 square feet of neighborhood-serving retail there at the corner Phase two is single-family residential We are proposing a hundred single-family lots in that area and then phase three is 276 additional Four rent residential projects there on the west side of the project So that's how we get to a total of two seven hundred and seventy two Units Connor gave you an idea of the amount of parking space We exceed the city standards and but we do so because we believe that's what the market requires and Approximately half of all the parking that will have throughout the site will have some sort of electric vehicle infrastructure So about 40% within the multi-family and then obviously in the garages of the single family which increases the overall ratio As Connor mentioned in August of 2022 we had a neighborhood meeting and there's a variety of things that came out of it Some people thought there was too many housing units that it was too dense We have actually reduced the density since that meeting and we did so because we wanted to provide for sale housing And so the single-family lots are just slightly Less dense than what we were proposing in that area before and overall We have about a hundred units less than what the general plan would allow without any kind of density bonus And and the reason why we're less than what's allowed is There are the site constraints such as the power lines There's water quality swales that we are incorporating and again. We want to create a product that Meets the market in both rental housing and for sale housing There was also a concern about traffic and emergency access Currently all the neighborhoods right to the north they come right to the intersection of Land-strive and Greenville Road and it backs up and there was a lot of concern particularly in an emergency situation that that would get Exacerbated and so what we have done since that meeting is we've created a second entrance along Greenville Road Kind of on the far west where our site is along Greenville Road So we'll have two entrances to the site lands drive with multiple entrances off of that And then another one off of Greenville Road. We also have an emergency access EVA connection on the north property line So that would really only be for emergency vehicles Residents would not be able to go and go through that neighborhood on a day-to-day basis But it would accommodate emergency situations if the need arose there was a loss also We've also kind of strengthened the vehicular connectivity between phases as well to again Just make it a more seamless Project for both pedestrian vehicular traffic There was concern about increased water runoff and that sort of thing We've added a lot more open space in this plan than what we had before you can see the kind of brighter green areas And that is really intended to both Detain water To slow runoff coming from the site, but also to treat water we probably have approximately eight acres of Landscape open space across the entire site Another issue that came up in the community meeting was the location of the neighborhood serving retail We previously had it a little bit further to the west along Lance Drive a little bit more remote from Greenville Road and We agreed that you know it was really more appropriate to be a little bit closer to the corner And so we rotated and kind of moved it a little closer so that it I think it makes it a better solution for that that there was also feeling that the architecture was maybe too big and quite frankly it was much more boxy I will say and working with Pacific development we wanted to create an architectural vocabulary that was a lot more residential in character So we've modified that which has a lot more variation in mass form and in material and texture I'll go to the next slide The single-family development what you're seeing here are 100 single-family lots you're not seeing the actual footprint of buildings on site plan and this Is designed to create kind of a small lot single-family community where the front porches Front the public streets and then the garage Garages for the most part are tucked back behind alleys and so it becomes a very walkable community in that regard Lots are intended to accommodate homes with three to four bedrooms 1600 to 2000 square feet And you see an example of a typical of floor plan on how that might work where you have the front door facing the street the Garage facing alley and the main active outdoor space is in between the homes Kind of straddling the property line Architecture for these I would imagine would be coming back for you What we are trying to do is create a framework so that a single-family builder can create a Market responsive community in this location if so that let's now Look at what we're proposing in terms of the multifamily components. So in the next slide you can see an image of What buildings might look like on land stride? What we've tried to do is articulate each of the units in the building with a residential form So on these buildings we have a gable form at each unit and we've separated the mass of those Forms with a recessed balconies. We've also created accent colors to kind of enhance that Recess nature and create a more three-dimensional Appearance we've added accent materials such as porcelain tile and brick made here Within the building so that kind of tan areas a porcelain tile again to create more richness to the facade We are looking because it is a large project at a couple of color palettes This one is a cooler color palette where the accent color is more of a blue gray And if we go to the next slide This is a view of the same phase of buildings But with the warmer palette with kind of a green and tan again You can see that accent tile on the corner and then also within windows If we go to the next one This just shows kind of a the typical Building and the scale and kind of the silhouette and our architecture character of a typical building that we are proposing This is the cooler palette that you see here in front of you But again, like I mentioned we have a cool palette and a warm palette and the idea is to intermix those so that you don't have a Repeating pattern in that regard We can go to the next slide so as I mentioned the projects can be developed in three phases So the second phase of multifamily is our third phase and that is what you're seeing here Although we're using a similar building footprint, which will facilitate project management You can see the architectural character is slightly different instead of gable forms We're using shed roofs and we're using kind of a variety of colors We've changed the materials by introducing horizontal siding in in many areas And again, we'll have two color palettes in this area as well. I Think we can go to the next and This shows you kind of the difference where you had the gable forms In phase one this shows sheds going in different directions and then a different Articulation on the ends itself We can go to the next so in each of the Communities we have a gathering area for residents And it includes a community clubhouse that'll have co-working space lounge space Fitness center pet wash bike parking things like that and we've tried to incorporate the architectural vocabulary actually from both phases with gable forms and shed forms and Kind of the same palette of materials with porcelain tile as an accent Vertical we've introduced vertical on board and batten siding in here that you can see And this is kind of the front side of a typical Clubhouse element if we go to the next you can see from the back side where you have the pool And in this case the fitness center has a high roof of high windows There's a shade structure that provides Some sun shading to the windows and that shade structure becomes the overhang for a covered patio That is slightly separated from the pool But again, it kind of breaks down the mass of the clubhouse in a way that also feels very residential and kind of ties it back into the overall vocabulary of the building If we go to the next you can see the Character of the buildings with kind of the low slope shed and the gables and how they kind of relate to each other In elevation and you can see the palette of materials on the top It's it's we tried to create a very contemporary palette throughout with very light colors So that it feels fresh, but then use accent colors to create some variation We can go to the next At the corner of Gernville Road in Lance Drive, we have our community or neighborhood serving retail We also have a community park and our community garden rather and the vision for the community garden Is much like what you have out front of here really more of a demonstration garden of sustainable practices for water use for plant communities for soil conservation that sort of thing and and be very pleasant to walk through and Be a nice visual anchor to that corner. You can see although this is the backside of retail It's very transparent and what we are proposing is a patio with a overhead structure So that the tenants that are in this building we would want to see them spill out I mean We don't have any tenants lined up at the moment But we would want to make it something that would be Desirable like for a coffee or or something that really would be a valuable asset to the overall neighborhood If we look at the next slide It's the opposite side of the retail building We imagine that it'll be because 4,800 square feet is a big for one tenant That's probably going to be two or three tenants So we we've again articulated with a shed structure and a gable so that it can be Each tenant can have their own identity Or we could also share particularly the longer one with a couple of tenants. We've recessed the Glass to create more of an overhang to the front doors and just create a kind of a layering of the building when you come in from this side That you see If we go to the next Slide of this is the it's similar to the clubhouse in that regard an elevation You see the varying roof lines and roof forms and again the pallet of materials both vertical siding plaster tile accents So kind of a rich palette that you would have We can look at the next This takes us back to the overall site plan Again, this is a conceptual level plan that shows what what we think is the minimum level of planting in terms of trees We as we go through the and develop the project in more Technical detail. We think we can potentially add more But what we've tried to do is articulate kind of the difference between street trees Parking lot trees pedestrian trees screen trees and that sort of thing Also in the first phase over by the clubhouse There's large oak trees that are associated with an existing house We've designed the site to work around those so those really become kind of a community amenity For that clubhouse and pool and play area all around that area At each of those clubhouses, you can kind of see where the blue is there's a pool There's pet parks and things like that, but we also have other satellite outdoor areas particularly along the greenway next to the power lines where we have a play area and Barbecue areas for residents there, so we've tried to distribute things around And balance what we can use open space that is active and then also passive open space and also water treatment Open space that we might have We are as you can see we're not showing trees at the moment Under the power lines because there's not only power lines. There's underground gas line and sewer line, but as we Look at this in more detail and work with the utility It's my hope that we can potentially get the smaller plantings that would be acceptable and I guess that is really What we have to show you today We are getting ready to do our Application to the city, but we're here to answer any questions that you might have Thank you very much. Thank you like to open public Public comment period on this item Recording secretary. I have the sheets So if you Tom Robertson if you can make your way to the podium And due to the number of speakers that we have present will be allowing each person two minutes to speak There is a clock here and And next up is a zeta Good afternoon Adam chairman members of the board Our company has been involved in Santa Rosa for over 30 years in the downtown, but also up on in the Fountain Grove area This company Pacific development is known to us. They're a high quality company. They do excellent projects We visited My partner and I recently visited their new project in Alameda, which is a mid-rise project It is first rate they have excellent financial backing and Obviously have hired a good architectural firm One of the things that I would like to point out is that 30 years ago This community passed an urban growth boundary and I was very involved and very in favor of Passage of that. I'm not interested in sprawl and part of that bargain was that This kind of development within the city limits would be permitted and What is crucial is and it's my understanding they're not using the maximum density that they would be allowed That the density of this project be maintained for the reason which I'm sure you're aware of If it is reduced it simply means they're gonna have to charge more so We need housing desperately in Santa Rosa I'm not a Santa Rosa resident my office address is 625 Fifth Street, but this is a Top-flight firm. I know the staff will work well with them. They've been very good at working with us on our project In the downtown, which we'll be back in front of you Hopefully and not too very long again for a design review Session in any event. Thank you very much and I hope you have positive comments for this project. Thank you If you could please state your name clearly when you approach the podium and After a Zeta is airy My name is Zeta Da Vinci and I am a resident of Westbury HLA and Thank you for taking the time to listen to my concern And I am here. I am for for affordable building but I am here to ask that To reduce the number of the unit in this complex when I am looking at the map I see a big trap and remind me the Evacuation of a for the fire in few years ago and still I think That there is not adequate And I mean I'm sorry for my English and I am very So it's it's The traffic I think it's gonna be I'm sorry. So My yes, my main question is to reduce the number And also I am very concerned regarding the air pollution. It's impossible that 15 almost 1500 cars they they Come in that complex and they don't affect the air quality of our in our neighborhood and also the the the parking spaces they are not enough and It's gonna impact whole our neighborhood with the cars that they cannot Park in there in the complex and Also, I am concerned regarding maybe the safety of our community. Thank you again and I Hope that's the number is gonna be reduced Thank you Ari Thomas and next up is Patricia I'm Ari Thomas. This project is a great opportunity to move port Move towards the general plans visions as much as possible and provide an example of the future that we want in the city This is a really well situated. Oh, thank you This is a really well situated spot, especially for people who rely on public transit and who have kids attending the middle school Please make these all affordable houses to not price people out I honestly think that we should not build any housing that isn't affordable, but especially in this spot To address the traffic impact you can incentivize people not to use personal vehicles and not take a parking space or two parking spaces with reduced rent To meet a carbon neutral goal We as a city need to shift decisively towards non-car transit because transportation is such an oversized portion of greenhouse gas emissions here Again, this is a perfectly placed spot to move boldly in that direction with such a big project I also really want you to prioritize making this an environmentally beneficial project I love that you're keeping the trees and I want you to just go crazy with the tree cover I want you to add a lot of food plants, especially if the community garden is not so much like individual plots And it's more of like a demonstration garden and It'll help the tree cover will help with the pavement and not create as much of a heat island I was inspired by the permeable concrete that they have out here at City Hall And I ask you to use that and that will help with the groundwater and runoff concerns I like your new palettes and the different materials that you used It definitely has a residential character and I would ask that you Get even more bold with the color palettes like maybe not use the white and not use as many neutrals because I think that would add a really beautiful character and Thank you. I love the gable forms. Thank you Thank you very much After Patricia we have Chris Hello, I'm Patricia Dreger. I'm opposed to the whole project Out of selfish reasons probably because I live a couple blocks up Lance on Iroquois there It's a beautiful spot if we develop it, which I think is a good idea Even though it's County still and not city yet according to what I read Let's do it less densely. That's my issue number one water Where is that water gonna come from and I had a good fellow explain it to me that we could dig a new trench And bring it in from the river, but I kind of don't know that the river always has that much Also roads if you drive up Lance Iroquois You'll see what I'm talking about. It's one of the crumbliest bits of road in town And so now you add the 1500 other cars and this gets real tricky Then third who is paying to maintain the beautiful environment? Is that tacked on fees for the rentals of the apartments? Is it a homeowner association? Fee that you pay for and you buy the home there. How does that work? I'm not quite sure how that's still gonna be affordable if all that is on there. Maybe the real the Stores or whatever they're gonna be on that little corner might help with that but please remember water and roads Big issues. Thank you so much Thank you and after Chris we had Dwayne Good evening board members. My name is Chris Gunther. I'm a Santa Rosa resident parent and homeowner I'm here today representing over 500 residents that are part of the bikeable Santa Rosa campaign a grassroots campaign Aimed at catalyzing an active mobility network connecting all neighborhoods in Santa Rosa We believe that people of all ages and abilities should be able to safely and conveniently move about our city without a car if they so choose While our advocacy primarily focuses on city-owned streets We recognize that land use decisions made by this board and others affect Santa Rosa's prospects for a genuinely multimodal transportation future So we've come today to say that we welcome enthusiastically this new project Which will bring much needed housing to Santa Rosa housing that is close enough to basic services amenities and public transportation To make living a car-free or car-light lifestyle possible for residents We know that you've heard concerns from other members of the public just now and In the correspondence that this development will contribute to parking and traffic congestion in surrounding neighborhoods This is a legitimate concern and should not be ignored But we believe the way to mitigate these negative impacts is not with fewer units nor more parking nor wider roads But by ensuring residents have genuine alternatives to driving to meet their basic needs For this reason we support the inclusion in this plan of many design features that will help make car-free and car-light living a possibility for residents Including a bike-ped path enclosed protected parking for bikes and alleyway garages for the single-use property We believe the plans could be improved even further by lowering the number of dedicated parking spots and working with the city to ensure There are connected protected bicycle and pedestrian routes to all of the nearby amenities including the retail store Stores and library at Coddingtown Mall the Children's Museum Schultz Museum and ice rink the smart station the bus depot and all local schools Thank you for your consideration Thank you, and after Dwayne we have I'm sorry, I don't know how to pronounce this PIOTR Is Dwayne still here? All right. We're skipping Dwayne Can you please pronounce your name for me? I'm my name is Peter. Thank you. I know it happens every time I had a substitute teacher in school I'm sorry. No, no. Good. Thank you and good evening I'm Peter. I am a YMV. That's yes in my backyard. So I'm very excited about all kinds of projects I like density and I want alternatives to cars. I'm actually very excited to see there's many other people here tonight share some of these interests So I consider the projects are only in a few small details I Want to see if we have options for interesting roofs like solar green roofs or ultra-white passive cooling roofs these new technologies or Even very old technologies in the case of green roofs can make Dramatically reduce the energy cost of heating and cooling. I hope to see how that can be integrated Also, I want those green spaces that we've seen that look very nice to include native plants and as much as possible avoid normal lawn grass which Mainly just produces like fertilizer enriched runoff and doesn't really contribute anything. We want to bring in pollinators in native white life Similar concerns like what sort of tech and even simple stuff like heavy-duty insulation can we put on the walls to further Improve the energy efficiency of these can we bring them as close to net zero as possible? My other concern of course is bringing in public transit connections into that area as well as walkability I live on Grinville Road are very close to it and having walked to the smart station It can be uncomfortable Can we improve all of that road network to make it more comfortable to walk from that site there? But the biggest concern I have if I can do it in 20 seconds is will the project and it's over the course of its entire Life cycle be financially self-sustaining for the city or is the city going to be on the hook to maintain roads and other things in Excess of the value of the tax revenue. Thank you Thank you Teresa and after Teresa is Harold Thank you. My name is Teresa Altezio and I'm here as a homeowner I want to thank you for your time in this. I Heard a lot of people discussing the parking and We do have an issue in that area already because people are Parking far from their homes because we just don't have enough for the homes that we have currently The streets there are not wide enough the roads are Definitely need to be fixed. I I've watched the emergency exits. I've noticed that they did add an exit and I think that's great But I still have concerns with the emergency vehicles with the current roads that we have Traffic, you know, are we going to have another light up there the light that we currently have is not sustainable It doesn't it for some reason. It's not very good You know, you end up sitting there on Iroquois and Lance for a long time in order to be turning on to Gernvill We do have a bus area there I Would love to see that you know people with bikes can drive to go down the roads and be able to ride everywhere But now it's it's like you're taking your hand in your life in your own hands because the roads and the way the people drive through there is Very dangerous. So if we're going to put a lot of Vehicles there and I I think it's great that you think that people are not going to drive or have the vehicles but most homes have a minimum of two vehicles per place and You're going to have all of that traffic that's going to be there in any time that we have in another Disaster That's my concern is when we have the disasters pulling out of these places It takes an hour to an hour and a half the last time we tried to get out of our home and that's It's not acceptable not for what these people are going through So thank you for your time Thank you and after Harold we have Paula Good evening everybody I'd like to thank the council for allowing me to speak Tonight I'm here to support Pacific development For those of you that don't know me. I'm The president of a company called IGH partners. I've lived in San Rosa started two different businesses in Santa Rosa and IGH partners is currently developing a multifamily in downtown Santa Rosa right now My partner Tom and I Tom already spoke have been fortunate to meet Pacific development over the last a few years because they provided us with a great sounding board they've been Developing all different types of projects for many years and they spent about a half a day Touring us through their Alameda project. We'd asked them for that so that we could just see what they were up to and I have to say that I was really impressed with the work that they did in the time that they took Just to talk with us just as as Another developer, but one of the things that really struck me about what they're doing is that They have a true multi multi-use project. They have a marina They have a warehouse conversion condominiums and a multifamily and if there's any group that is Experienced enough to do the type of project that we're talking about here in Santa Rosa It would be Pacific development. So they have my full support as a Group that's capable and interested in improving Santa Rosa just the way they've done with Alameda. So, thank you very much Thank you Paula Hello, my name is Paula Sifle. I am the president of the homeowners Association for Westbury Drive in Santa Rosa here We have a hundred and sixty units and on that faithful day or that fire eviscerated coffee park me and my neighbors sat on Guernville Road and We prayed that we weren't going to burn in our cars after watching what happened in Paradise it is the responsibility of this board this council to Be stewards of the public safety You have not addressed After deciding that you may entertain 1500 more people and God knows how many more people on that road the egress From our units To a safe place Was not adequate. We sat on that road And we watched the sky turn Red and orange as people's homes burned It is your responsibility adding new streets to dump on to Guernville Road Makes no sense We have other concerns and we will be bringing sequa We will be bringing other homeowners associations in the area And we have retained counsel and we will fight this project on every particular Item that we can and in any way we can for as long as we can it is a horrible idea Thank you Please please please Reframe from addressing other people speaking if you want to support them you can raise your hands But clapping and booing is not appropriate. You'll be asked to leave Justin Hi guys, my name is Justin. I live on one of the properties That's actually included in this development. So unlike all these people I actually have to move when it goes through them That being said Totally supported. I've lived in and out of this neighborhood for the last 10 years. I Want to share some of the things that I go through with living in the middle of that big open space Constant homeless Constant illegal dumping constant illegal parking and camping. There's been two fires in the last two years one of them damaged a Bunch of the the fences of the homes on Iroquois It's just it's getting worse. It's not going to get any better Pacific development is bringing an A-class development to a C-class neighborhood. That's straight up the fact I mean, this is a really well thought-out development It unlike a lot of the buildings that are going up in Santa Rosa these big boxy structures that go right up to the street This is set back. There's a lot of greenery It's going to be great for the neighborhood the people that I see walking their dogs down my access road Now they're going to be able to walk all the way to Comstock I think it's good for the neighborhood I think a lot of the issues that people have with the Landstrive light can be easily fixed Put a designated left turn lane put a designated right turn lane Encourage people to utilize the Jennings neighborhood to access Dutton in college and know that if there ever was another disaster Going east on Guernville Road is not the only option to leave this neighborhood there's plenty of other ways that you can get out of it and I think that Pacific development with the design is going to address that This is also a project that's going to take like they said seven to eight years to build so There's a lot of things that can be worked out and a lot of new habits that people could learn to live with To have this development in their neighborhood Thank you, that's all good and Leona. Hi there. I'm Leona. I'm also a resident of this neighborhood I live about one block north of the phase three on the corner of Pawnee and Iroquois. I Also have some concerns regarding the parking if there's going to be less than two parking spaces per unit on average I don't see how that's going to be sufficient We have one of the largest apartment complexes on the other side Valley Oak and there's a Lot of overflow over there on to the neighborhood and so I'm just trying to figure out how We will fit all the extra vehicles It's very hard to get out of some of the corners on the streets because everybody is so far on the corner The whole Iroquois road is a through way from Gernvall Road to West Steel the street is not marked at all people are flying through there all day long And so I'm just Hoping that there could be some reconsideration on the amount of parking spaces just because It's already so impacted within the neighborhood. I'm not opposed to this project I don't feel like I have all the information yet to form a complete opinion But I did want to address that as somebody who's lived here for over a decade That parking is an issue within the neighborhood and it's not safe as it is Thank you Thank you. I'd like to close. Oh, I don't have cards for them Michael, how you doing? My name is Michael lived in Santa Rosa about ten years. I lived in that area for Maybe eight. I guess just a few concerns, you know, it's great to have housing That entrance onto Gernvall Road is going to be from the designs. It looks like they're trying to have people turn in both ways People drive super fast on Gernvall Road And I doubt that people are going to be able to turn left out of there at any time unless there was you know a bridge or something The other big concern I think is the amount of non permeable space There's a tiny creek that runs along the south side of Gernvall Road Which probably all that water is going to go into and I mean half a gallon of Let's see half an inch of Rain on an acre is going to be like 14,000 gallons on that acre so 34 acres. That's almost half a million gallons of water just for a half Half inch of rain and so if they can make it so those that water is mostly infiltrated that'd be great and then the last thing for me is just Planting that many valley oaks along the road. It is not going to be sustainable for You know 50 years there. There's not going to be enough room for those roots to grow I like that they're keeping the big the big oak tree in the middle There's one oak tree in the very back that I don't think has enough room from the house Housing development in the very back that they're keeping But yeah, definitely spacing out plants and native plants and and water permeability So yeah, thank you And Dwayne Thank you. My name is Dwayne DeWitt. I'm from Roseland But I'm very familiar with this area because my maternal grandparents sold their four acres of land on Ridley Avenue to Hugh Codding to help build this whole neighborhood out there when he put Codding Town together I've been going through there all my life and my cousin still lives within a half mile of this project. It's proposed One of the things that's most important I feel is that the project be Compatible with the city's vision that we're going to be Using cars less We're going to be using that smart train that people are going to be using bike paths and walkways and things of that nature When I see this massive amount of parking, I'm like wait a minute that doesn't that's not necessarily something that's compatible The woman that lives nearby though. She wants more parking and the people that live by there are probably going to keep driving So we're in a conundrum. How are you going to get the resilient? Sustainable development that you talk about from this project or anywhere else in Santa Rosa if we're all still riding In cars sometimes some people ride bikes, but definitely not in the rain The thing that I feel is most important the gentleman just spoke about the non-permeable land and all that Stormwater runoff that comes from places being paved when we are in an area that's prone to drought and when we're having difficulties Preparing for the future not knowing if we're going to have the amount of water that we're needing So I'm hoping there'll be some sort of stormwater retention basin approach Some sort of swales things that can be more helpful You design pros you can put it out there as to what you say is better And then I'll just come to the next meeting and see if we can find a Meeting of the mines a middle ground. Thank you so much for your time Thank you Before I close public comment does anyone else like to make a comment? Seeing no one approach. I'm closing public comment And at this time we'll take any questions from the board from the applicant I'll start with you Ernest sure Thank you very much for the presentation and The drawings the renderings help a lot in trying to figure out exactly what's going on. It's a big site. So Very helpful for me to wrap my mind around Just a few questions just for clarity And maybe the first one might be just for playing just so we better understand I know that there were a lot of questions about how the road is going to function and how people are going to get on and off the road As I understand it. This is just a conceptual designer view. This hasn't gone through any analysis yet So a lot of those questions I imagine get answered as a traffic studies conducted that maybe some of the folks are Hoping to hear answers for is that about right? Yeah, that's a that's about right and part of the project Entitlement review process would include referrals to traffic engineering who would study the conceptual Idea of having the Gernville Road access. So a lot of those questions will get answered down the line It's not something we're looking at here correct this meeting. Yeah All right and Then I know that there were some Comments and questions about open space areas and lawn areas and we're just looking at the plans I'm just looking at some of the notes It looks like they're just to confirm a lot of those green space areas are actually retention basins. Is that correct or Are they open space lawns? I can answer This is Ron over LPS I can answer that. Yes We will not be having a lot of lawn area because it takes up a lot of water and Maintenance most of those large green areas are for water retention and Water quality and so we will be using plants that Can thrive in that environment and filter water and that sort of thing So yeah, there won't be like play lawns one thing that's nice about this Development is very close to a city park. And so we do have that kind of resource immediately adjacent Sure great that helps clarify. Thank you One thing that kind of got It was actually a public comment But it was also a question I had it was regarding the idea of a community garden was just looking for Some clarification on what what exactly the intent of that is in the plan Well, we are still working through that a little bit internally We were and I there's a variety of ways to think about it We were not thinking it would be a like a plot garden that are rented out with individual Vegetables and that kind of thing we're thinking it might be something different and and I think a great example Is what you have here as that I don't know Shawn if you have other thoughts Good evening board members Shawn Murphy Pacific Development. Yes, so really looking for input. This is a community garden We thought that the retail Might be actually a local flower shop And really trying to activate that hard corner of Lance and Gernville together with neighborhood serving retail But really a community amenity there for a garden Together with the street trees that are going to be planted along Gernville Perfect. Thank you And I think that might actually be my limited questions. Thank you Vic are you do you have questions? Just super super quick. I think how big is a small lot? That's a great question And let me just go to I believe they're about Oh, is that what they are 3,200 square feet, they're approximately 31 feet wide by 56 feet deep Thank you and I Lots of great comments, which made me think and come up with additional questions I Do think I have a question about the creek Which is across the street across Gernville and the question is How how or as you as you continue to develop the project, how will you Address the fact that it's across a major a big fast road from a creek Which is really important in Santa Rosa So I don't expect you to answer that but it is a question That the creek is there. It's a it's an important important part of the city and You know there for you as you continue to work that those are that was it the creek Yeah, the creek in the small lot. Thank you True I'm gonna go through my notes here for questions not comments Questions, okay. I did have a question So In the design guidelines So one of the members of the public's question about paving for the station area North station area specific plan. Oh, it's mouthful. There is a requirement for permeable paving So I was just wondering if you guys have had that Discussion about the integration of permeable paving at all since it is a specific requirement in that area And yes, no, it's fine. I'm just I'll say I'll say we probably need to study that in relation to the guideline to make sure that we are in compliance. Okay, and Actually, that's it for my questions. Well, thank you. I Only had a few and I think Ernest looked at my sheet and took all my questions Because I'm an avid gardener so When the question came up about the garden space I was hoping that it would be an actual space where people could actually grow gardens. I think So that's not a question, but a Comment and in just so I want to make sure you said that there were eight acres of green space and To follow up on Ernest's question Is that all the bioretention space the eight acres? Yeah, that that would include all of the area that is not Driveway or building or walkways. It's it's open space. That's landscape taught. Yeah. Yeah, it has taught lots swimming pools But it does have like patio's outdoor living kinds of spaces as well But it does include the bio retention areas So there is no wide open just green go through a ball of space Not large play areas of that sort you would have to go to the park So tied to that I found the PG&E easement on One of the site plans and so it it looks like the PG&E easement runs Effectively on the left-hand side of the substation and you guys have kind of done a doubled up parking scenario there in phase 3 to accommodate it But I guess the question I have is So it would run kind of adjacent to where you've got the playground and barbecue area and then goes up And then there's this green space shown That runs north south that's adjacent to the single family phase 3 So I guess the question I would have is tied to what Melanie was asking so that's shown as a lot of green space And it looks like it maybe kind of half straddles the PG&E PG&E easement So I guess with the plan to be also for that to be bio retention and kind of heavily planted for that It is bio retention. I think you're referring to the area kind of north of Landstribe and we were also talking about right now. We're showing the the whole thing as a rectangle I think it would as we look at it It would be nice to maybe look at ways to shape it where we could get Because it is on the edge of the easement And the easement isn't exactly parallel with the parking that we're using But to see if there's opportunities to get some vertical planting in there. That's not going to be Impacting the the lines, but yeah, yeah, you are correct that there's two rows of parking that go north south there and the towers for the power lines are kind of Particularly on each side of the eastern most one and then there's gas and sewer that go through that as well Thank you And the other question is on your drawings and this might not be what you Present fully but on your lower levels. There's always there's no the patios have no screening on them Is that on purpose or is that something that will be added later? That's a good question right now We we have not probably given out enough thought so if you were if particularly for property management If you were if you have residents that are living on the ground floor and they may be more exposed with their patio We probably want to look at that in more detail. Yeah, okay And the only other question I have is Looking at the plans. It looks like the from the buildings to the proposed clubhouse There's not a clear path And maybe I'm not reading it clearly, but it looks like you it kind of stops and then you have to make your own way Across the road Well, we've tried to create a pedestrian network that ties all of the buildings to together going across Driveways through Paseo's or along parking edges to bring everybody in those communities to the clubhouse I Believe there it's a small drawing, but if we've missed something We will take another look at it But we absolutely need to have an accessible path of travel for everybody to get to those amenities. Yeah. Yes, okay great Are there any further questions Chair Jones-Clarke if I may So the I just was looking into the north Santa Rosa station area specific plan and that designates this that corner of Lance Drive and Kernville Road for a community garden and we actually define that believe it or not So that is a public space with plots of land available for gardening by members of the community living in the area Community gardens are open to the public can provide green space in urban areas along with opportunities for social gatherings beautification education and recreation Great. Thank you. I Actually have a follow-up question. So so the location that was shown on the This is on The developers or the design teams Presentation it that's where it shows the neighborhood serving retail with community garden kind of area Correct. So that it is Required is it required are you suggesting that something is provided at that corner specifically correct? Cool. Thank you Again great all right So I'm gonna ask the board to pry in summarize their comments and Oftentimes will repeat something because we really want to drive that point home So if you want to just say I'm repeating this that would be great So let's start with Vic. I have the summary is I have two comments Emergency egress and looking to the future Say what they are So I'm just I heard emergency egress coming from Many residents people who live nearby and I can I myself Was here and lived through the tubs fires up pretty lots of people here have and it is a real real thing in Santa Rosans memory and How they think about the city so I Know that the development of the project itself cannot solve the problem, but it as as you work with the city Highlighting emergency egress and and just knowing that it matters a lot will help as you as you move the project forward I don't think it will prevent the project But I think it will help if it becomes something really important My other comment is looking to the future, which I believe Dwayne said and so did Peter Essentially Please push on I hope you might push on building technologies aiming toward net zero as you continue to develop How you will build Many many buildings here That's it. Thank you Ernest Thanks I'm gonna keep my comments pretty Limited and just conceptual since this is a conceptual review Limited comments are just Looking at some of the elevations of the buildings and I think it's mostly related to phase ones Layout since there there is a lot of rigid. Well not rigid, but everything is very aligned on this site I just have a concern if some of those gable type Structures are so repetitive and the buildings are repetitive on to their own That it may create a Scale that feels a little out of place. I just have a little concern with the gable type structures I think it's building a type a and B and phase one That's gonna create a long row of repetition Maybe Just investigating if there's a way to break that up a bit Part of it is that there's no repetition or there's no variation in roof heights for those I think the other options in phase three provide a little bit more Variation so I think those seem to I want to say be a better design, but it has a little bit more interest in my opinion Looking at the pool building I believe it was the west elevation was left blank I'd have to see which sheet that it's a big drawing set. So I'm not I don't remember which sheet it was on Just checking on the west elevation to make sure that there's maybe a little bit more interest going on there And then just some considerations It looks like there is it's called out on the Applicants presentation There's there seems to be the good idea of having that connection to the middle school on the adjacent property You know, there's gonna be a lot of families that are gonna be living here Just making sure that there's that it's a thoughtful connection thinking about safety that kind of thing and lighting Making sure that there it's a logical Maybe that's obvious, but a logical connection right now Looks like it's at the very back corner of a soccer field Just making sure that we really have that in the right place and I'm not gonna dig in on the Community garden thing because I think someone else wants to talk about that But whenever I've seen the idea of community gardens come up It it does feel like it's on a leftover Part of the site and that's where I was kind of thinking was happening here But it sounds like it really needs to be here. So I'm just curious to see How you guys address that one it it does feel like it's a little bit in a corner I understand that it's gonna be next to the retail. I think having the If there was the a business that was associated with it, maybe that was that would be you know They could play off each other, but I I'm really curious to see how that is handled where this must be a pedestrian friendly site and it's in the furthest corner of the property How that's actually gonna be used is it gonna be meaningful? So I think that'll be an interesting design challenge I think that's all the comments I have for this. Thank you very much for your guys's presentation Thank you Thanks chair So I want to bring the architects attention to Section four point one zero the north Santa Rosa station area specific plan design guidelines I Hope you looked through these There are pieces of the project to me that don't feel like you did So I would encourage you to take another peek at that But one of the biggest things that to me that I think You know we heard a lot about How Gernville is unsafe people drive fast those sorts of things the issue with Gernville Road in this area is that there is nothing That is pedestrian facing right so you zip by and you get to your destination and And that's what it is. And so one of the large guidelines in the north station specific area plan Is to to to a one I think that's what it is and that that has to deal with It's the first item in here building should be built to the minimum setback assigned for the district so I think that's kind of happening on a couple sides of the the property But it's not happening at the intersection of Gernville and Lance, which is probably the place it needs to happen. So you have You have building a six pushed back away from the road And then you have all the amenity spaces for the clubhouse and then you have parking and street adjacent to Gernville There is another got design guideline d. Point 3 Parking shall not be in direct view of streets. It should be screened and hidden from streets And so what effectively the design guidelines you're saying is put the building next to the street activate the pedestrian space Put your parking and drive aisles behind the building. And so I think that's a huge design shift That could help Activate that intersection not only both for your proposed retail amenity But also for the housing and also when you have pedestrian activity on a street. It tends to slow traffic down In addition this property is very close to the north station of the smart train so People are going to walk out to Gernville Road And they're going to walk down Gernville Road to the smart station one would hope I Completely agree with Ernest on the gables I Think the gable the one thing that he didn't mention is I think to me what's causing them to look off Is that because they're? Effectively gable parapets because you probably have mechanical systems and whatnot behind them. They feel false, right? So when you look at them from an Angle they don't feel complete whereas with the Shed roof situation there. They're probably constructed in a similar man similar manner and have the same depth but because of the way that That geometry is working. You're not seeing that same kind of falseness with the gables. So I would Echo his comment as well For that though in addition I think the relief between the the gabled area and the back could be Accentuated a little bit so an additional foot or two To develop a little bit more massing breakup. I think that'll also help with what? Ernest was talking about I Think the corner is intriguing with the way that you've currently laid it out, but it has no connection whatsoever to Sidewalks on Gernville or Lance and it needs a connection to sidewalks on Gernville and Lance It's how you're going to it's the main entry to this project So from a pedestrian or bicycle experience, that's how somebody's going to enter More than likely specific especially if there's a retail component or a community garden And as of right now the project proposes no Bicycle or pedestrian connection at that corner I'll reiterate the permeable paving. I think the member of the Pollock made a really good Comment about that and I think you should really evaluate it I agree with Ernest on the west side of the clubhouse at the white stucco It does feel a little bit blank compared to the rest of the elevations When you move forward, please make sure that you provide Designs for all of the site-built elements including Trash enclosures and other secondary components And then the last thing that I think the public should know is The north station north Santa Rosa station area specific plan has a reduction in standard parking in The zoning code it's written into it so If there were this were built anywhere else in Santa Rosa that did not have a built-in parking reduction it would require and I did a rough back of the napkin calculation here 719 parking spaces. So because we're in a Priority development district with transit the zoning code already allows for reduction in parking and So they're providing 607 parking spaces on this property and that I believe based on their calculations is 1.7 spaces per unit which actually exceeds the minimum so the minimum is 1.5 spaces per unit just so everybody knows So they're actually providing more parking than required, which I think is a good thing for as many units as they have Tied to that I'm a proponent of going denser if you could But that would require going after a density bonus affiliated with affordable housing Which it does not sound like the applicant is interested in it. That's at this time But I would encourage you to do it and with that comes a reduction in parking So you're only required to have one space per unit in an affordable development So that would I think appease Some of the concerns about the traffic right less parking less cars That's worth in but more density for unit types And then obviously controlled by the the powers that be of affordability by the state of California Other than that great project overall, I hope you guys listen to the members of the public about the development I'm concerned as well about EVA access and then access to the streets around But I kind of have sympathy that kind of hemmed in a little bit with the PG&E substation in the church And it'd be hard to kind of get an easement to go through in that area from a vehicular perspective but Please look at that with more depth and With that those are my comments Melanie. Thank you Um, I don't think I need to reinerate the garden issue. So I'll leave that alone Yeah, and I did like the one comment from looking up at the the color scheme at the At the units, I think it's a great opportunity to add more variety I always think about little kids in a complex That's that big and everything looks the same and how do they find their way home? So I'm a big proponent of adding more color whenever possible and trying to make the units look a little more Individual instead of just repetitive with a little change of color on each building and If we could if you could look at adding more green space That is not just bioretention I think that would go a long way with this project And Then the other item was the lower level units I think that they need to they deserve to have some kind of screening or security around them as well and that is my final comment and Are there any other oh Sorry, we have a board member who submitted some quit comments. I Think that's appropriate. Yes, so Adam Adam Sharon Yes, and if you don't know Adams a long time member of the board and a landscape architect So his comments are thank you for bringing this proposal to activate a currently underutilized pocket of the urban fabric The site is uniquely situated in Santa Rosa at a nexus of transit retail community assets schools parks places of worship Etc that make this area an ideal spot for this scale of development I encourage the applicant team to continue to look beyond the parcel boundaries for guidance and maximize the proposal's connections to the surrounding neighborhood context The frontage along Gernville Road will be vitally important to the thousands of people who pass the site daily This entire stretch of Gernville lacks sidewalks and upgraded pedestrian and bicycle facilities should be prioritized And this should be expressed through the entire site a key component of the project Is that the parcel is situated to be walkable bikeable to transit and shopping and these? Priorities should be expressed through many open space and community gathering nodes along with an emphasis on human scale walkability and Safety rather than cars and parking kudos on the proposed Gernville Road frontage bike pathway Please be sure this carries through to the final design and use this example to continue to create similar open space and active Transportation opportunities throughout the site I applaud the proposed community facilities community garden open space and pedestrian focus of the Landstrive Gernville Road intersection This serves well to announce the development and act as a community gateway Thank you And if there are no further questions Know for the comments This item is for discussion and direction only and no action will be taken on this item Thank you very much for your presentation Thank you very much is very helpful Item 4.2 is study session way finding ordinance EIR previously certified We're gonna actually recess for five minutes and then we'll come back You can just hand Okay, I think it's been five minutes I'm gonna start from the beginning Item 4.2 study session way finding ordinance EIR Previously certified by CC rezoning zoning text amendment ReZ 23-009 Present it by Christian Thank you chair Jones Carter and members of the board today before you today is a proposed zoning code text amendment This is going to be for the way finding sorry. This is going to be for the Wayfinding sign ordinance or we'll be proposing into the future of what's planning commission next this is going to be This is a city-wide type of ordinance, but it's only going to cover two specific areas in the city So for the project, this is going to be a zoning code a text amendment to Incorporate these wayfinding signs into our zoning code We're going over permitted areas the types of wayfinding the location design standards application process installation and the sign removal Existing signs that we have and definitions So right now is this is the project timeline so I just want to add we have actually two wayfinding sign programs now in the city so Currently we have a pilot program with railroad square Which is for business wayfinding and then we have a permitted wayfinding sign program here in downtown that you might have seen around courthouse square And then during this process we created a public survey and that was during October and November of last year That was largely to see how the city felt about these sign programs Especially about business wayfinding because we currently prohibit that type of wayfinding in the city And then we went to cultural heritage board last week for recommendations And I'll be going over those as well with you and then next will be planning commission next month And then city council hopefully in March with the ordinance taking effect in April First I wanted to go over what we're going to be defining as wayfinding So we have our two very specific categories, which is a business wayfinding and the public civic amenity wayfinding So this will differentiate between the different types within the city that we have Examples would be railroad square is more business wayfinding while the ones out here in courthouse square are public civic amenity wayfinding And then we also are defining sign plaque and signposts just to indicate what they are in this program and the sign programs So for additional information on these programs we're looking at having them allowable in the downtown station area and the north station area Only for the city. So these are specific policies and goals Outlined in their specific plans that they wanted wayfinding programs. So that's why it's being limited to these two specific areas at the moment And then this is going to be for business identification and public civic amenity design navigation For business wayfinding. This is going to be limited to six signs per business This is going to a double-faced recount as two signs In railroad square currently none of them reach this count. So that's currently not an issue And then we have listed allowable dimensions for these and Which would be eight inches in height and 24 inches in length and then the signposts have a maximum of eight feet in height So we have different types of standards for the locations Though these wayfinding signs can be located on site So we have general location standards and then we have standards for the public right of way and for the private property Many of these standards came from different departments within the city that have different regulations over a public right of way or how they might want to place certain signs within Pedestrian located areas So this would be design standards for public and civic wayfinding They'll be required to do iconography and directional arrows They would need to showcase Where would these civic amenities would be located and it's used to enhance and clarify a message within the area Those would be required in English and Spanish You might have seen that currently in the signs that are located downtown and then the font sizes listed as three to six inch lettering We will be prohibiting flashing and digital signs and then Locations within the ground floor overlay need to actually showcase travel time and distance to location I will go over what that means shortly So here we have the active ground floor overlay this was included in the downtown station area specific plan So if you see the kind of peppermint pattern Within the area that will be the areas within the city that require a time estimate locate time estimates to locations So maybe something is five minutes of walking distance that would need to be located on the sign So for business wayfinding it has many of the same Standards one I did want to mention that isn't listed here currently is will be requiring one public and civic sign For each sign post and that would be double-sided if it is a double-sided sign program So whatever they that would like that to be located. It is going to be part of the business wayfinding package For prohibited text, that's a different thing for this type of wayfinding. We wouldn't be allowing phone numbers or websites On the application process currently that we're going for is the sign program so this is a type of application that will allow for a large area to Indicate every single sign that is part of this program and the locations of these signs, and that's how we were able to establish We do have currently have a lot of sign programs around the city So it's not an entirely new process We're just incorporating wayfinding into the current sign program process And then if anyone ever wants to propose a new sign to these sign programs It would just be a sign permit and they wouldn't have to go through the large process again since their existing sign programs And then we'll also have standards for installation and removal It would be on the business to be removing the signs promptly after close of their business Here are two examples of the wayfinding that we have in the city The one on the left is the public civic amenity wayfinding and the one on the right is the business wayfinding at railroad square Here is some specific feedback requesting and any additional that you may have so sign post materials and design Color uniformity for business signs are color legend depending on the use So maybe a park might be green or something like that And then if you want to include travel time and distance look inclusion outside of the ground floor overlay So maybe all those all of these signs may might need Time estimates to their locations Before I go into this recommendation, I wanted to provide you the cultural heritage board recommendation so you can get an idea At that meeting last week, they were hoping that these Would come through as concept review to the cultural heritage board if they're in a preservation district They also wanted us to look into regulating distance between sign posts to reduce clutter Ensuring sign flow sign posts blend in with the furnishing zone and other objects and structures in it So that would be like the areas of the sidewalk that you see all of the different sign posts For like parking or directing you to a specific area or a street sign or benches And then another would be matching the historic character of the district This is kind of captured in our design guidelines but they would like it to be in the zoning code and then they did not think logos would need to be following any type of uniform standard and They would like for each sign post to have like a sign header that would indicate the area that it's Located in and then specifically in the historic districts. They would like a type of sign ornamentation As the header so that would be a kind of like a structure on top of the signpost kind of metal-esque Still working on the details And then they like the idea that public and civic wayfinding is a requirement for business wayfinding And they would like to have historic landmarks included as part of that requirement So now planning an economic development department is I'm hoping that the design review board provided comments and recommendations to staff about the proposed wayfinding sign standards and My information is also listed here for anybody Okay, thank you We'd like to open public comment Chair Jones Carter seen there's no one in the room. I think we can close public comment. I'd like to close public comment Are there any questions of the From the board of staff or the staff Thank you very much. So is the intent that there's gonna be like a The design standards are gonna be Collected and provided in a manual that are used In the future, how does this work? Yeah, so the design standards that we're looking for are gonna be directly in the zoning code That's where they'll be located Is that do you need a clarification? No, I think that makes sense. I'm just thinking typically if I Signage can be such a You know a visual thing that having it as a written description in a zoning code is there opportunity for A support documents that help Guide what those requirements are or is everything going to be in text? I have not been able to discuss if we would be updating the design guidelines I'm not sure if anyone would like to jump in Good evening Chair Jones Carter members of the board Jessica Jones deputy director of planning Thank you very much for that question at this point What we are working on is development of zoning code regulations and to the extent that we can we're trying to keep Everything within the zoning code. I believe that there are some design Standards that have been developed and are in there So we're definitely looking for the board to see if we you know got it right if there are new ones We want to add changes that we want made but to the extent that we can make these Design standards rather than guidelines. It will certainly help the process Typically sign programs and sign permits are done at an administrative level rather than coming to a board for more discretionary review So it's better for us to have standards in the zoning code. That makes sense. Thank you So to to tack on to that from a question perspective. Yeah, I would agree. I think Or I would the question I'm gonna I get would ask is So maybe it's a multi-tiered question. Sorry So we have a sign we have assigned programs already, right? And they're kind of in the zoning code kind of not right. They're not it doesn't sound like they're particularly well-defined Maybe or are they or? so we have the Regulations to create sign programs are in the zoning code, but the programs themselves are proved Individually for you know different generally they're in shopping centers and such so they are not in our code, but they are adopted through the code By staff and are kept, you know separately. So any new project that comes in Any new sign within that program would have to meet those sign program Regulations that were approved by staff through the zoning code process if that makes sense It does and I think I think my so my second question is so it sounds to me like the what we're currently discussing our hybrid a hybrid sign program that includes both identification of public services and Also businesses right so it's a hybrid system similar to You know, for example, what Healdsburg has right, you know on their square They've got a hybrid sign program where they've got public restroom this way Go to the restaurant over here this way right and so they've and they've got them all over the place right and but Healdsburg Obviously being much smaller than Santa Rosa So I guess Are you looking for direction on what we'd like to see in general as it relates to a sign program or specific? Direction for each individual hybrid public business sign program being proposed So the sign programs would come in at the request of an applicant So what we're looking for is Guidance on the design standards That you would perhaps want to see in an overall program or for individual, you know sign The the posts the signs themselves That type of thing Does that answer your question? It does. Thank you Do you have any questions? Does specifying the post as necessarily metal limit options In a positive way I think it could limit options. I'm not too sure We're having difficulty creating The definition so adding metal in there just made it easier to Create the definition There might be some type of standard for having these in the public right away needing to be metal I don't know that specifically but I would have to check with other staff that we have I had a question Who who enforces this? Enforcement would be well planning would be the ones that would be overseeing the application process And then the actual enforcement of these signage would be through our code enforcement team Asked a question Who would it does someone need to review these signs then are actually Provided by the businesses or by the city in terms of I see that it's like The example with next to the light pole There's the pole itself, and then there's all the businesses that tack everything on who would submit an application Would that be a building permit application that goes in and then people get to tack their stuff on or? So For the sign programs that would be submitted by the applicant so whoever that may be so we had the downtown association submit the public civic ones you see down here and I was the one that reviewed the entire submittal and saw Each sign that was going to be there and then future signs that might be inserted in at certain points throughout the year So it's approved through planning. Yes, so early through building There may be an associated building permit depending on how it is attached And then there may be an associated encroachment permit with engineering for public right of way Okay, so that they'll review more for the actual Installation of the post and the sign not necessarily for the signage Yeah, and then traffic or transit will have to be looking at how they are Viewed by pedestrians and then how if they are going to be proposed on any existing sign poles we have around the area Perfect. Thank you. So I mean So I've done my fair share of a pertinent signs, right? And and I think so the process is different in different jurisdictions obviously and The threshold for the review of the design of the sign is different based on the jurisdiction And it's also different based on the size of the signage, right? And so I think that the question that I have is you know the Let's use the downtown district sign as an example, right Christian you reviewed that I mean they're handsome signs, right? They've got a clear direction. There's an identification about the location, right? But it has pieces. I think missing, right? There's pick pictograms are kind of missing right pictograms are kind of a universal way of communicating with the public Not everybody speaks English and or Spanish right people speak other things beyond that and pictograms help communicate that so I guess Maybe that's why I'm struggling to I'm maybe like doing a half question half comment It's that it seems like we don't it seems like we don't have a threshold for what What determines how signage gets reviewed, right? If it's a little baby sign That says this is the address and this is the business That seems to me like an administrative process, right? but if it's a signage program that's being installed on 35 street corners in a large district in the city That feels to me like it needs to go to a different entity to be reviewed, right? And that that's kind of the process that PRMD has just for example Right, there are thresholds within their zoning code about the signage size and and in typology of sign and then when you hit a certain point it says guess what you got to go to the design review committee and discussion And so I think that's maybe what's missing. I think that's what's confusing me a little bit That makes sense Yeah, absolutely, and so I think you know that's definitely within the purview of the board to make that recommendation if you know so the The programs that have been approved thus far that Christian mentioned, you know for Robert Square and for the courthouse square Those have been approved at the administrative level but you know hearing what you're saying I think you know it certainly makes sense if the board wants to recommend that you know a program that includes more than you know X many Sign polls in you know various locations should come to the board for consideration whether that's so you know I think Christian mentioned earlier the cultural heritage board had recommended in preservation districts that they come for concept review before the CHB so, you know the board could consider whether you feel strongly that it come to the board for For action or for concept review and maybe I'm a little bit confused. I'm sorry So the the big the plan is that this project would be implemented throughout the city of Downtown Yeah, so currently we're the proposal is for the North station area. Oh, let me bring up the map. I have it. Oh Sorry, it's the map is located in the exhibit So it's proposed in the North station area and the downtown station area Those are the only areas we're proposing at this time because of our specific plan specifically wanted those two That's why Okay, but but the bigger point the bigger picture is that then moving forward Outside of this project it would come to the design review board Mike in my goodness or no if that is the direction that the DRB would like to take you could recommend that to Planning Commission and that would be added as an part of the amendment. I don't know if I really need to see signs, but I'm just saying But that's just my thought so let me get some feedback from this board Yes, okay, I definitely I have Kind of a big comment, which is I In a group that I work with there's one guy and he always says the same thing and he always says What is the worst possible outcome if we do this and what is the best possible outcome if we do this and and that's That's that is a question, right? Like will we end up with such a proliferation of signs that it's too dense and we can't read it I don't know I'm just but it is something worth considering as we do the and it is way finding and we have to remember it These are way finding signs. They're not just hey, I exist. They're like here's how to get here's how to go from where you are to where this other place Somebody's got a somebody's got to mock it up at full scale because this for example this is 8 by 22 and If the if the font is three to six inches and it has to be in English and Spanish Not gonna work Physically it won't work The font's gonna have to be and you can look you can look at the at the image right because if it's three inches and This is a this is eight right? That's three and three It's an inch at the top blank an inch on the bottom and there's nothing in between that won't work Right, but if it's six if we have six inch font That gives you an inch at the top and an inch at the bottom and you've got like what do you have three letters per? Page so it needs to be mocked up at full scale. Please do that Like physically physically full-scale not on a computer screen Just get some boards and do it please I ran a shop for a very long time and taught architecture We always did full-scale Yeah, sorry, I'm not particularly sure so you want to mock up you know I don't want to do it in order to get the standards You will have to physically sit down with things that are the sizes that you think they need to be and test them because you Because you can't have both three to six inch font and an eight-inch height limit on And have it in English and Spanish It just Just yeah, it's simple, you know get get some poster board with this one this Santa Rosa downtown district These are in place, right? Yes, both of these are currently in place I Don't have the exact measurements on my head, but they are within the same parameters of what is that that's not eight by 24 Yeah, I do not have sorry. I don't have it in front of me right now So I can't know but because eight by eight is a third of 24 And if you if you and you can visually see that the Santa Rosa downtown district is not Three times as wide as it is tall each sign it I mean like No, it's it's not it's not a max it well even Yeah, so I was just gonna say Vic the what I think Krishna saying is the maximum Sign size is eight by 24 for each individual business or weight And so this would be quote-unquote in compliance because it is smaller, but it's not it can't be in compliance Also with the font size Right, I mean there's just there so so the question I guess is Do you want this sign to come to the divide design review board? That's the question. I Mean, I know I would You would absolutely You know, I think I think it would have been nice to to see this Santa Rosa downtown district signage Right as as handsome as it is Right, and I've seen it. It's handsome, but I think it's missing some pieces, right? Like like I said pictograms, which is a simple little thing, but it's it's a universal kind of Acceptance of everyone who may partake of said sign, which I know sounds a little cheesy, but it's an inclusivity thing, right? And if Santa Rosa keeps talking about being an inclusive city, which I think we are in many ways And that that's an element we missed on for instance, and so I may ask are you Suggesting coming back as a design review board action or as concept review So that I don't know the answer to so like I said my my You know, I've done this in a number of other jurisdictions Most of them have a kind of a concept procedure for the design itself, and then it gets approved ministerially I think that's that's not a bad idea To get it done that way To have a concept component and then approve ministerial that way It's you're not relying on a on a board to vote yes or no But you are relying on a board to say hey guys you you miss this piece or you miss that piece Kind of thing So I would say the the process that I would be in favor of is seeing it at a concept level But requiring a physical mock-up like Vic said Somewhat mimicking I think what PRMD does Which is a fairly straightforward process at least in my experience. Yeah, and I think it would be I apologize chair. Yeah, I think Doing it at a concept level. I think would work well in this instance is it would be more streamlined And would be a quicker process for applicants rather than going, you know full-on to the action. It's a much more costly and I More timely process Ernest I didn't get your feedback sure, I Think my only concern is Having You know if I look at the signs, you know, there's the level of consistency between what the The city sign looks like and what the business signs look like the business signs are allowed to have their own Font style their own logos all that kind of stuff the city of Santa Rosa Uses the San Sara fonts and the specific sign Sizes of text and all that When I start thinking of wayfinding and the world my background for accessibility I start to question We're creating a kind of like broad Program where it's saying comply with the ADA standards in the California building co-chapter 11b That's good, but for at least like the the city programs it sounds like The ones that are going to end up being responsible for compliance would end up being the city It doesn't fall in the designer. Yeah, we're supposed to know what we're doing But it's the owner that would really hold that liability And we're not really having a review for compliance because it's only going to The planning department and how is the planning department to know what all the technical requirements for the signage? Thank you for that question So I will say even if a project or sign program Doesn't require a building permit any time a planning application comes in it gets referred out to all of our internal Departments and divisions and that includes our building division and so it would be reviewed by our building division for those technical pieces Including ADA compliance So even a planning application will go through the building department for a technical review of compliance correct Yeah, both of the current ones as well were reviewed by building engineering and traffic Okay So the only thing I could See a hindrance of us getting a review as a designer review board. Let's say we don't You know, I know Drew has a lot of familiarity with this stuff, but let's say it was a fresh board where folks might not have So understanding of the technical requirements for what needs to happen and We start saying just make it all like fancy fonts. We want to start seeing some fancy fonts It's not going to be codified the zoning code that that's not allowed or anything. We're going to rely on The suggestion of the of DRB is going to essentially give something that's whimsical and that's how People are going to be expected to proceed. We're going to create potential conflicts in my mind, so I Feel like there needs to be a little bit more a Little bit more guidance than what's provided to ensure that we're being consistent and we're meeting compliance and one way or another Or that we're actually going above the minimum level. We have an opportunity to have wayfinding and When we're talking about inclusion maybe we do introduce some ideas of Hightening the level of accessibility and providing wayfinding into our signs instead of having it be an afterthought I Think that should be a consideration if we're going to roll this out if it was one side and I could see Okay, it's just one sign, but we're talking about a program So I think we should at least have that as a consideration so I think we're kind of torn here on The next steps But maybe we should do a concept review I think And with that if the board is wanting to move forward with providing Requirements in the code to come to the board for concept review for a sign program Is that for all sign programs or is there a threshold for the number of posts being proposed or the air at the size of the area? It'd be helpful to know that I I'm really torn on this because I I think We could be we could be a stumbling block in the process and I don't want that to happen and so That was why I said do you think it really should be coming to us? And I'm not I'm still not sure if it should if it warrants to design review In my opinion Well a when you say it yeah, I do you mean In the future every individual sign. Yes. Oh, I don't I definitely don't think I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean I don't think we can do that. I do think the Setting the standards we can certainly weigh in on that I think we could set some standards But I think the the issue is the review of the standards would be coming to us Chair if I may so to continue along with the the PRMD kind of parallel, right? so in the counting county zoning ordinance Which Christian if you want to look it up. It's section 26 80 to 050 article 84 sign regulations if you want to get Follow we got later. So there's a big giant chart at the bottom and Obviously the county is a different scenario than the city There's a lot more kind of varied zoning and kind of agricultural zoning and other things that we really don't have in the city But what's nice about the chart at the end is it's real clear use permit design review zoning permit boom-boom done Right, and so then that defines what type of signage on what type of land use Requires design review, and I think coming up with something like that for I think Probably like zoning type and then like Matt, you know like you got 30 signs for a big giant area like downtown Santa Rosa, which has a varied You know usages may be appropriate So for example if you have a business and you're putting up one sign Right, so that's a commercial Business district or whatever right it would just say Zoning permit right CP. That's what will be required, but if you have a Thousand unit apartment complex with a way finding that requires you know way finding around the property to find your way That would be a design review Requirement right wouldn't be a use permit wouldn't be a zoning permit would be a design review requirement So make does that give you some better threshold ideas at least in my mind. I don't know if everybody else agrees Yeah, well we could install a minimum signpost requirement and that would probably a good start right now We don't so that the minimum signpost requirement would probably help with establishing as actual sign program and not us getting like singular Way finding posts and then that would also limit the type of clutter You might be would be seeing and then if you wanted to establish a maximum signpost as well But I'm not sure if that's something I was also interested in But we do our zoning code does break down designer view by the different review authority level and the requirements for each one So that is also something we can Insert this type of program into if you would like I just I you know, I just don't I Have a great deal of confidence that we could come up with some parameters But I don't think that we should be the In the review process for that's just me but I We don't vote on this right there's no Discussion I Think I'm in alignment with you on that one. I don't I think helping set up the reviewing the design standards and and maybe having feedback on that and I Feel like that would be The limit of our scope because having to go through every single Sorry, I Get concerned that we become a bottleneck for tiny little things whereas I think if we have a Program that we can agree on of what the parameters are And I I think that sets up where we go and how we push forward and or how the city pushes forward Reviewing the additional signs. I don't see it so and just to be clear so This is the opportunity to provide comments on the design standards and there are design standards that are proposed in the language before you So at this point our next step Is moving forward to the planning commission with a draft ordinance with a recommendation for council? for adoption so You know what we really are hoping for is a consensus of the board if there are things that you want added into this Including, you know, if you do want a requirement to come back for for new proposed sign programs for new You know if railroad square so the railroad square sign program that is up right now Was approved through a temporary use permit So once this program or this this ordinance is in place, they will need to come back through So the what we heard from the cultural heritage board is that they want to see in preservation districts, which rather square is a Concept review of that. So if that is put into place in the ordinance That program would come to the cultural heritage board for concept review So what we need to know is if you know the railroad squares or sorry the downtown association Wants, you know to put in a similar program, you know beyond what is already in place Is that something that this board wants to see as a concept review and and do you have specific questions or or suggestions to? Enhance the standards that have been developed in what we have now They have a question on the on the time frame for this because it says that you know you submit your application You get the permit. How long does this all take for an applicant? I can give an estimate for the ones that we've done. I believe the downtown one took About four to five months and the railroad square one was around three I Don't know. Do we have a minimum review time for sign? Generally speaking, you know the sign permits and sign programs as we've mentioned are done administratively and so I would say Two to three months would be kind of a maximum for those, you know, obviously it depends on our Staff level and workload So sometimes it can take more if we've got a lot of comments, you know It depends on the applicant's response time, but generally speaking at an administrative level. It's a much quicker process than Taking something to the zoning administrator or to one of our boards and commissions So does anybody have any Any items that they would like to add to the project So yeah, I mean just to tack on to your comment Jessica, I mean just as a design professional who goes after sign permits a lot In full honesty three months for an administrative design permit is kind of ridiculous I got an app retentant sign in a week from the county and I've done that from other districts I'm not I'm not saying it's No, I just happens. Yes. I hear you saying and I would say for a single sign permit Yes, that is that is the case that sign programs are different And that's I think what Christian was referring to the sign programs that we've done perfect Yeah, so and that's where I would make the distinction meet me personally As a design professional if I'm coming in for one sign, I want it in a week I want it administratively no big deal if I'm coming in for a big business complex if I'm coming in for 50 signs and railroad square I would expect a more robust process in all honesty Most other jurisdictions in the Bay Area you cannot put up a sign until it goes in front of like five boards I know if you talked to Michael Birch about this He would wax poetic about it right because all he does is building signage and how difficult it is in other jurisdictions in the Bay Area we we we are Easy peasy when it comes to that so I think large sign programs Need to find their way here concept But individual but like it so it says here individual business amenity sign so that that's absolutely administrative The only thing that I would say is a public civic amenities wayfinding under that section that would need to come to designer of your board for concept and then The thing that I think is is a little nebulous in here is it there's not like a definition for like business park or Large sign program and that would be the other thing I think that would kick it to the next level, but if it's like you know a couple of signs that absolutely Administratively monument sign one monument sign administrative, you know that type of stuff to me seems like it would it should go through The city process be handled administratively get done in a couple of weeks. So should we should we set a Number that we want to see Yeah, can I give some perspective of the two? Railroad square is about nine sign posts and about 40 businesses are taking part of that and about I would say over a hundred signs total on those and then the downtown ones is around like 26 Sign posts and then they each have five rotating inserts depending on what they want to showcase and as well as the events in Courthouse Square Okay Do you have a number that you would like to see? It's come to us It would be Throwing darts at it, but knowing now when that thanks for that information knowing that nine actually nine signs hosts 40 businesses, I mean that It's actually quite a bit It almost makes it seem like five Makes it a program and it's still hosting fair amount of businesses But but again, that's throwing darts at What do we want to see? I think anything less is just no reason That's it, but that's assuming that we get Okay, let me just think about this. So if there are 40 businesses we would see it at one time Yeah, so for the Redwood Square proposal they gave every single business that was going to be a part of it at that moment and then Additional businesses have been added since that time Following those standards and when the additional businesses would come in if those additional ones are coming in those would be signed permits Not a signed program So that would be done through their own system and then we would just review it based on the standards that we have already Okay, okay So I would say that to me the value of a sign program For example, the so if you have a baseline idea of like the signs must be this big They must be this color. They have to have picked whatever the list of stuff is Then that it's much it's kind of like an EIR in a way, right? You get to kind of poke at it as things get updated and it becomes an easier process for the upgrade component and So I guess what I would be concerned about at the concept design review is not necessarily the individual design of each business sign That's the business is business business so to speak, right? What I think I would be concerned about from a design review perspective is is The size of the sign the ability of that sign to be visible to members of the public all members of the public Right inclusive of all members of the public Is it providing accurate information to where the business is located or the public or civic amenity? public restrooms Hospital whatever it ends up being Right, so are those things are are those items being hit on into the sign and is it easy to read, right? Like the big overreaching thing is is easy to read and is it durable and will not be, you know, vandalized over time and The same that again that the downtown Santa Rosa one. I think it fits all that criteria, right? It's all metal. It's got interchangeable signs that all got proposed all at once You can find where you're going. It's clear You know, so that's the type of stuff I think that I would be looking for and the reason that I would say that it a large sign program needs to come before dr B is that Boom done you get the comments done and then that way that whole signage program gets conditioned for the ability to have Stuff changed over time and it's less kind of this revolving Issue of well, I we already submitted this and we're it's move that there's a more robust process in place So then it becomes much easier to go in and get you're just your one sign. That's just how I see it well We're kind of we're kind of torn here Yeah, I I guess I think you should come back to us as a Oh, but you want some suggestions. You need suggestions from us. Okay Yes, we are headed to the planning commission in February. So we are looking for your suggestions tonight if you can okay All right, so so it sounds like everyone's an agreement that if it's a program DRB should and that's the comment that it would be then is that if it's We would dr. B would see review it at a certain level Is that an acceptable comment to kind of Summarize yeah, I would select the level that you would like Concept seems to be the one that everyone is semi On board with but if you want to break it down further as like becoming a review authority over these signs Yeah, you would probably want to state you would want concept Yes Yes, yes, so a sign program. I'm just looking at the Proposed language right now is for a way finding programs submittal or a new sign post So as I'm Christian, you can correct me if I'm wrong as I'm reading this if somebody is wanting to propose a new sign post That would be a Program, is that correct? Yes, it would be updating the current program We also have another process in place if you would like for that to be done We have the changes to an approved project process That is a it could be director level And if you wanted them to update their sign program by adding additional sign posts It could be done that way rather than a new sign program So I might my thought was just more along the lines of you know If a program is proposing five or more new sign posts It needs to come to the designer view board per concept review right less than that can be done at an administrative level Yes, just a suggestion. No, that's perfect. I'm sorry. We're talking about posts now not signs She said five posts. Yeah, five posts can have yeah Yeah, yes, so if it's four sign posts That each have nine signs on them That's that Yes, you have to pick a number Well, but and and somehow we've lost the way finding idea right because you can It are we talking about way finding only or are we really talking about sign posts? Well, yeah referencing signpost is just stating like that is the way finding sign So wanting to know how many you want to limit of the actual way finding the program So you need to I would just need to know How many is the threshold we can also set a minimum in general so we can't do less than five at all And then you could you know, whatever type of I See, yeah, so we could say if they're coming to us they have to have this many participants in The process and then it would come to as a concept Yeah, so if that the right now the threshold the best way is for the the number of sign posts because that's is Indicating where it's going to be within the city And then though the height of those signposts will indicate how many signs will be on it basically and then There whatever they propose will give you additional information, but yes, I Have an idea for number and you had tell me tell me if you agree or not How does for sound because what if it's a square with four corners? Or if it's a block with four corners a hundred percent on board. Yep. Okay. I I'm I'm offering three because Why because because squares or squares, but We have some small areas Where you you might be I it just that there are also paths Fine, I but no, no, no, that's a three. I I Mean you and less than three is like that's not really a program. That's just a couple of signposts out there All right three Any other suggestions Comments I made that the comment about the the pictograms Yes, I think under design standards public civic communities wayfinding underneath here It should have So before you should switch e to f so it says flashing those signs are permit prohibited and under e you should say inclusion of pictograms for Inclusionary signage is encouraged What do you mean by pictograms? So pick pictograms is a definition within the building code about how Inclusionary elements are defined like bathrooms parking First aid that kind of stuff. So pictograms is a building code Determination would that be better under iconography on a Under under a iconography. I I do see Drew's point at a pictogram is a defined term Yeah, yeah, we could add that Yeah, I would say iconography is like the business logo. I'm that's what I see this But I think pictograms are defined like okay accessibility thing So currently iconography is listed as those visual symbols and images which would be referring to I Guess the same thing in my mind because that's how I can you repeat that gram is is a defined term Yes, I picked a gram would actually come with technical requirements that so you're essentially able to now enforce Part of the building code by having the term pictogram whereas I can an icon can be any kind of artsy You know free thought form Okay, so we would need to do additional standards to change iconography to include logos and then pictograms would be added for the accessibility features Yeah, I really think it should be its own Its own item. Yeah, when you guys feel about the travel time and distance I I Think it's a great idea, but not if the font has to be three to six inches It's not possible so that I am going back to this the actual numbers which which aren't gonna work. I Think it's too much required on there. Yeah, you might be able to squeeze like Five minutes underneath an arrow Unlike one side of it, but I agree with you guys it it's gonna get too tight and then you're not gonna see it Yeah, I don't have the exact measurements on the downtown one besides the panels themselves those inserts on the whole sign Are four inches in height? So the letters aren't yeah, they can't be three inches But they're beautiful. I mean, it's it really is a beautiful signage Personally, I really like the Santa Rosa downtown district one much more than the other one with I like the standardized Logo look of it or no logos or whatever you call it, but it just looks more uniform to me Then the other one with the individual stores Logos and stuff looks Well, it's harder to read. Yeah, but but that's because the individual store is trying to catch your attention. Yeah, right? And I would it is harder to read. Yeah, the Santa Rosa one it provides a sense of place Yes, I think is what you're trying to say. So how do we write that it? We'd like a uniform sign So Logo list You want for business or for public? Yeah, cuz there are two different I know there are two different allowances, right? You do have us one specific for civic and then yeah I think letting businesses do their thing offers. Okay. All right Something but yeah, I wonder though to the chair's point, you know when we start going up in historic districts or You know other places that have a sense of place like your neighborhood or whatever if it this expands beyond you know Right, like I live in the junior college area, right? You know some people live in the st. Rose neighborhood so on and so forth. So if there were I don't know how you specifically Write that in as a requirement, but maybe it's an option under the business way finding something like for for you know for business way finding signage located in District areas, you know, it is the applicants option to provide a Sense of place or something. I don't know. It's kind of nebulous, but Are you suggesting like the the civic? The civic sign has the Santa Rosa kind of emblem at the top having something similar on the business one where it indicates Rosalind or whatever District, I think that I think that's nice. It creates a sense of a sense of belonging and and allows the Individual business sign to be what it whatever it wants to be. I like that. Okay, if I mean I'll concede No, but but Melanie your your point about the the civic signs being standardized Even though that standard and perhaps that standard varies slightly based on the district So I want to clarify I'm gonna pull up my screen again So are you talking about this top portion on both of them? So they both have a district area Signifier it's just not the difference is the rare world square one is not as prominent so the CHP comment was they would like to have a Specific standard for a sign header so that would but I would be considering it as and that would signify the community Character of the areas proposed. We agree. Okay. Yeah, I think that the railroad square sign just kind of disappears And it looks like a business sign. I think it's the CHP's point I was wondering if there is a proposed text or font size for these whoa So the sign itself can vary Right with them with and you said that the the downtown sign is the each little plaque was four inches tall and That might be 24 inches wide could be 20 inches wide. I'm just like is that a fourth or is it a fifth? They are 20 inches wide. They're 20. Oh, so it's a fifth. Okay Did you clarify exactly which portion of the sign you're talking about for the text and size and Just tell us are you talking about the downtown district or are you talking about the other one? That's railroad square. Are you talking about in general? So in general the sign text standards are the same for both Okay, so if there's anything you would like to propose. I would say to tack on the Vicks comment The dimensions a maximum it says a maximum of eight inches height by 24 inches is allowed. I Think you should go to 12 inches in height and 24 inches because then that allows you a broad right you could have Effect you can have six inch text and three inch text together with gaps Because the the eight inch dimension is limiting the ability to have English text Spanish text or English text and more descriptive information, right? And that's why the Unfortunately the downtown signs have text that's smaller than and then the signage Requirements actually say but do they work so so we need to ask if that downtown district sign works and is legible Then then three is not the size three inches is is too big as a as a minimum Right if that downtown sign works because where it says public restroom in Banio Publico like that's If that's a four-inch thing, that's less than an inch. That's way less than an inch in height for the font Do I mean do people I'm I'm looking at Santa Rosa, but you're saying yes, do we have to provide a recommendation on the font size So we currently have them so you don't need to provide an additional recommendation. I just know it is a comment coming up okay, I Question if we should be Challenging the font size because I have a feeling it was probably there for a reason and if we start arbitrarily Changing font sizes without knowing the reason that it's there We're just kind of guessing at it, and I don't think we should be doing that But Ernest if if people aren't following the font size Then I don't then But there is a stand there is a there is a recommended There is a font size that you have right now a font It's three to six listed on here I would just say that the downtown sign would be considered a legal non-conforming sign So in the future these signs would stay as is and then when they propose to do any changes They would have to come into conformance with our new sign standards. Oh, I mean, I'll just give everybody a little bit of context So if you're in a building and you have to egress out of the building the building record Requires what's called a tactile visual sign, right? So this is a pedestrian scale sign, which is what we're talking about and so in the building code a Pedestrian-scaled sign the tactile sign the height of the lettering is can be anywhere from one inch to two inches tall So I think the requirements set forth in The document are probably fine Just having that as context In terms of do they work? That would be my comment I have any further comments to make So are you interested in keeping three to six or do you want to shrink or in you can keep three to six? What if what if? Because it because that would make this sign no good and it's a beautiful sign I would I would hate for this sign to be to be like not that doesn't that doesn't do it because Then if you think how big this thing would have to be and what it would look like I mean this it's it's got some really nice proportions. Oh, this is we're not the final We're not the final correct. This is going But this is going as a to the planning commission who will be making a recommendation to the city council One thought is if there are concerns about Not having more flexibility in the sign height or excuse me the lettering height Right now the proposal is three to six inches So it would have to be within that frame If there's concerns that maybe that is too tall we could you know you could start it at one inch to six inches Which would give more range and you know flexibility If that helps It might help and it also So I one of the the main message Might have a different font size than the secondary Then then right then because and we can see that really clearly in this the center sign of The Santa Rosa downtown district. We have fonts of three different sizes, right? Maybe it you could say Primary information should have a larger font size than secondary information and No font size shall be I mean It's less it is less than one inch there and I and I hate and I would hate to say that but I mean Let's let's because I think we we don't want to get too Too tight on this so I think if we go with the one to six inches and Let people figure out how it's going to work best I think that that's a good compromise Okay, can I just say what one thing that maybe helps support that so I'm on the Just for context if we're talking about someone with a visual impairment There is guidance on what the heights are and So we're talking about someone that's going to walk up to the sign and look at it This isn't you driving by a sign. This is intended to be for someone really looking at this thing They're looking at three inches For character height per foot of viewing distance above 21 feet So three to six inches is Yeah, but 20 that's like to be able to read it from 21 feet away And I I don't think I don't think these signs are intended for that No, I think he's just giving you a comparison that The the standard is if a sign was 20 feet away. Yeah letters could be three three inches, right? Yeah, so three to six inches is pretty I think might be sufficient even for folks with visual disabilities but what if Okay, then then Then an eight inch sign is as a maximum height And what and the maximum height right now is eight inches Height of a plan. I think that I heard the board suggest Increasing that to a maximum of 12 inches And we're doing all of this without even drawing it. We do like that. This isn't this is not right This is not the way to do to be designing things Seriously, I know I'm well, it's it's it's our it's our recommendation. It's our best guess and That's all we have all we have to go on right now unless you want to Have them come back Give us an actual bring it and let us see it and Be able to be more prepared Because I personally I didn't think that this is what we were doing right now actually but So is the board asking for this ordinance to come back for further review? I'm not okay. I think I think we've got a pretty Yeah, we've got a pretty straightforward kind of set of objectives that we've kind of established right just in summary we'd like to see Three or more signs as a sign program at concept We would like to increase the Maximum allowable sign to 12 by 24 which doesn't mean we're gonna see 12 by 24 we could see 6 by 24 6 by 18 We've agreed that 3 to 6 inch lettering is acceptable but I think three of us have and Which and if we want to enlarge that to 2 by 6 or whatever I'm amenable to that thick, but I think We've we've we said we would like an inclusion of Pictogram definition and I think and then a district specific Sign header But as designed by the person proposing a sign I don't think there needs to be any and it would need to kind of conform to the to the to the standards Right, so it would be its own thing, but it would still be 8 by 24, right? And it could have a you know an iconography or in a lettering The last thing that I'm just occurred to me as we've been talking about inclusivity and and ADA and other things is As I was reading the text. We actually don't have a Contrasting color comment in here. I think that's important to like to set some boundaries for somebody right like hey Bring us a sign and they bring us a sign that's green with green like that's not great for anybody So I think just a requirement for the like under the lettering like lettering must be of contrasting visual color to background You know just real simple guideline like hey, this is you know No purple on purple no green on green Anybody have anything else to add and that Vic did you want to? Increase the text size and just settle on that with everybody it's not like I cannot I cannot settle on that I cannot do design without Actually having the stuff to look at this is all this isn't a house. This is a sign I want to see what these things look like I want to be able to compare them and I I don't think that's I I'm not going to design standards Without that okay Wait, let me just say this It is it is possible for Vic to actually go and see these signs and then email you Her recommendation or suggestion we can do that correct absolutely that is correct The last thing I was going to say is To help Vic to like and from a guideline perspective moving forward I also don't see a requirement to provide a full-scale mock-up And I think that's a critical element of of a sign program It doesn't need to be like the same materiality right? It could be poster board on poster board from a cost savings perspective, but I would say full-scale mock-up indicating color color and Color and font or something like that Because like I would hate to make somebody do a full-scale mock-up of like a Laser cut stainless steel sign, you know, I mean that's that's an expensive proposition to have a board go I guess what change it all It's not a mock-up. That's a yeah, and I believe I know the answer is question But I'm just gonna ask for clarification. You're referring to the sign itself and not the actual poll. Yes For the mock-up. Yeah, I would think just the design itself I think I think everybody knows what a poll is like if there's a picture of the poll. I think yeah Make sure we're understanding the sign itself and the polls are standardized, right? So that was one of the Question recommendations if you wanted to do any type of changes to the sign polls or require design standards for these sign polls post I would say we I would err on the side of being more nebulous so far I mean an example be a historic district, right? Maybe it's a historic district of all craftsmen homes or something and so maybe the sign designer We want that post to be evocative of you know, typical craft craftsmen design elements from a column, right? And that would fit the character of the neighborhood. So I don't think it Makes sense to limit the sick the post must be a four by four HSS column with a black epoxy paint I mean, I think that's the bad way to go about it. May I ask if the downtown district sign is Isn't like a monument sign or is what it physically? What is it? Is it on a post? Yeah, so these ones are on posts either their city ones or their own and then some of them are double-sided Or some of them are single side. I mean they're flat the railroad square one is clearly on a post We see the post the downtown district though Is it's not clear what that is? Yeah, so it just varies So some of them are located on city type structures, and then some of them they provided their own signposts You need a location of where to find these I Need some way Yeah, I can provide I can email a the two Location maps that we have thank you. I will get out there I will get out there this weekend and look and and with my tape my measuring tape and Camera etc etc. Yeah, they don't like if you were to put a requirement in there I would just say like post post post shall be of similar character to surrounding Context or something if you were to put anything Thank you for letting me do that All right, this item is for discussion and direction only no action will be taken on this item Where's my sheet saying and with that I'm adjourning the meeting Thank you very much