 It is five o'clock, so I will call together or to order this meeting of the finance and personnel committee We'll start out with the roll call other Feldy Oh, they're Ackley. Oh, they're flaky Panesky. Oh, they're Pirella All the Mitchell's here five out of five. We have a quorum. Will you all please stand and join me in the pledge? of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands With liberty and justice for all right we have a pretty full room today, so We'll go into item number four for introduction of committee members and staff for everybody up on the Dias if we can have all of the members of the finance and personnel committee introduce themselves first and then Other elders who are also in attendance follow up We'll go my right to left Tray Mitchell district nine committee chairman City administrator, and I apologize that I did not turn on any of the microphones for that All right moving on to item number five then we have approval of the minutes from our July 11th meeting Is there any discussion on those minutes? If not, we'll be looking for a motion to approve All right, we have a motion a second then all those in favor, please indicate by saying aye All opposed chair votes aye the a seven the motion passes minutes are approved With that we are on to item number six, which is our own number 11 of 22 23 Submitting a claim from Laura campman for alleged damages to her tire when she drove over the cover of a metal works water hole Turning atoms, so this is just here for you to file the claim was previously denied Thank you questions or comments If not, we would be looking for a motion to file All right, we have motion a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor all opposed chair votes aye the a seven the motion passes With that we are on to item seven, which is our own number 19 of 22 23 Submitting a claim from Richard a Olson for alleged damages to his vehicle when it was struck by a city of Sheboygan garbage truck Well parked on Custer Avenue This is also here for you to file. This is a A claim that was actually paid not in the amount that was originally claimed, but it was paid Questions or comments on this one if not, we'll be looking for a motion to file All right, we have a motion a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor All opposed chair votes aye the a seven the motion passes Next up we are on to item number eight, which is our own number 40 of 22 23 Submitting for your information the 2023 budget schedule and 2023 preliminary budget fiscal factors for guidance Prior to departmental budget preparation My understanding is that this one was on here for our information if there's any questions that committee members have Or comments to be made Regarding the dot attached document Oh, they're prella. Yeah, I just wanted to know what is the Wisconsin's expenditure restraint program? Dr. Krueger Thank you. There are two tools that the state has in place to Control the levy that the city is able to put through each year and expenditure restraint program is one of those if we qualify within that expenditure restraint There are certain qualifications including Keeping the levy increase each year to a certain percentage and it's based on different indexes and such Provided by the state if we stick to the allotted amount the state actually gives us a payment for doing so Thank you Administrator Wolf. Thank you chair I just wanted to point out for the elders to to realize that over the years the expenditure restraint Dollars have been reducing year over year So we we are dependent on the expenditure restraint as part of our our revenue that we budget in and Year over year that that amount has been decreasing Thank you. Thank you any other comments questions if not we would be Looking for a motion to approve on this one. All right. We have motion a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor All opposed chair votes aye the aye seven the motion passes With that we're on to item nine RO number 143 of 21 22 Submitting a summons and complaint in the matter of PNC Bank National Association versus ray are Pay that now So this is just another one that you're going to be filing this was a summons and complaint in which the city was involved as a lean holder and the matter has now been dismissed so We can file the document Fair enough questions comments on this one if not, we'll be looking for that motion to file All right, we have a motion a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor All opposed chair votes aye the eyes haven't the motion passes And we are on to item 10, which is resolution number 40 of 22 23 a resolution authorizing a transfer in the 2022 budget from contingency to the Department of Public Works to Fund the unexpected replacement of their like a robotic total station. Is there anybody that would like to speak? on this one Director people Director people Thanks, mr. Chair. Yes, this this budget Transfer is to we have a what's we use first our surveying equipment for our Engineering and design system so this survey equipment was out early in the year Unfortunately with large gust of wind I tip this unit over and it's a very expensive high precision piece of equipment So it was totaled unfortunately Accident happened and we're looking to replace this piece of equipment this we've actually replaced it already But now this is kind of the funding now to replace some of the budgets that we took to replace this piece of equipment Thank you other flaky Panoski so so It was damaged you bought a new one and now we're finding money for the new one we bought How does that work? We use some balances in some of our existing accounts that we but now to replace what we had earlier in the year Otherwise by the end of the year we're not going to have money in those accounts in other words So we're replenishing it out of the contingency account so that we have money in those accounts to to reimburse us And refresh my memory. How much was it? Ish It's right around 40,000. Okay. Thank you Any other discussion on this one if not, we'll be looking for a motion to approve Do we have a second? All right, we have a motion and a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor all opposed Chair votes aye the ayes have it and the motion passes Next up we are on item 11, which is resolution number 42 of 22 23 A resolution authorizing a transfer in the 2022 budget From contingency to the police department for unanticipated repairs resulting from a burst sprinkler pipe chief Sure early in the year we had a sprinkler head in the ceiling of the vestibule in the entrance to the police department combination of very cold temperatures and the way that the wind was blowing It froze and then the pipe burst and so we had water damage in the lobby of the police department there And then to some of the carpet and and inside of the municipal courtroom So insurance picked up some of it and this is what's left Thank you Questions or comments on this one if not, we'll be looking for a motion to approve All right, we have a motion. Do we have a second? All right, we have a motion and a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor all opposed chair votes aye the ayes have it the motion passes That brings us to item number 12 which is resolution number 43 of 22 23 a Resolution authorizing a budget amendment to pay for the hiring of an engagement Coordinator in the senior services department Hi director of senior services Emily Rendell or Ojo here So as you likely know, we are getting ready to move into our new building and on track for an antit anticipated opening date in November Previously the senior services department did have three full-time employees including this coordinator that was kept in the TO But the position was left open as we were not operating a building So as we prepare to move into our new building We're ready to have a third full-time person helping us run programs and run the building and as you can see We have some supporters in the room with us So we'd like to reactivate that position What's unique about this and a very lucky good and kind thing is that the Friends of Uptown Social has offered to Pay for the cost of this position in the 2022 budget year Thank you questions or comments from Administrator will thank you chair I just want to thank the Friends of Uptown Social for supporting this position for for this year It's it's a great partnership, and it's really nice to see it's great to see The relationship that Emily has with the support of the of the Friends group, so thank you again for all that you do But I was going to thank him for the comment and then second it but yes, thank you Any other comments on this one discussion questions compliments Oh, they're Brella. Yes, it just said I I look forward to the grand opening We do too I Think the mayor is excited to get his conference room back Fair enough If there's a no further discussion, we'll be looking for a motion to approve on this one All right, and we have a motion in a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor All opposed chair votes. I the eyes have it the motion passes. Thank you Next up we're to item number 13, which is RC number 276 of 21 22 Your committee to whom was referred arrow number 31 of 21 22 by city clerk Submitting a summons and complaint in the matter of link media, Wisconsin LLC versus city of shabuagon. I Think somebody wants me to get my steps in so just get a sign This is another matter for filing This was a lawsuit that was filed against the city the matter has been dismissed We did as probably some of you saw in the media with a with a settlement That's designed to be a one-time settlement that hopefully will not impact us going forward Questions or comments on this one if not, we'll be looking for a motion to file All right, we have a motion a second then seeing no further discussion all in favor Oh All opposed chair votes. I the eyes have it in the motion passes That brings us to item number 14, which is a direct referral of our own number 44 of 22 23 By the finance director submitting a report to the finance and personnel committee Regarding the progress of the Carlson Deppman compensation study. I do have a PowerPoint. I'm not sure if you can get it up Well, I will start with an introduction. We have two consultants here today with us Patrick Lynn is from Carlson Deppman consulting He is the individual who has been working with myself and administrator wolf over the past many months And also with the department heads over the past few weeks and also today They had meetings with department heads that requested him He has 19 years of public sector experience including being human resources director multiple places But most recently Calumet County in Wisconsin and then we have Sandy Mott's here, too She is from Cunningham and Butler. She is the individual we brought in for today's meetings to sit down with the department heads That had concerns over the study just to be an HR professional side so that we can have that a little bit of a buffer will say between the consulting Compensation piece and then just the human resources aspect just an outside opinion to help us out She has 30 years actually more than 30 years of public sector experience in human resources And she is the former human resources director from Appleton. She was there for 24 years So she went through a very similar compensation study as we're going through right now I will go through this quickly because I have gone through it a couple times But I did want to make sure that I at least touched on some Items before we start any discussion or questions that the committee does have the timeline April 2021 the study was Approved by counsel to go with Carlson Deppman from May 2021 through July of 2021 Employees and supervisors were to fill out job Description questionnaires and these were detailing different duties that they have assigning percentages to those duties coming up with the required Education required experience all those details that really help Carlson Deppman pick apart these positions and decide and Analyze where they should go within the scale and then human resources had their chance to review the JDQs at that point as well In August and September of last year the department heads met with Carlson Deppman here on site And there was an individual also remote in and they went through answered questions brought up concerns to Carlson Deppman of what might be different in their department from others that they have seen things like that in September 2021 in November. This is just a kind of a gap that I have For Carlson Deppman was doing their review and actually doing the development of the wage scale After that, I just wanted to put this out there for clarity that the human resources director Was no longer working on the study as of November 2021 So that is really where I became more involved in this study December 2021 to April 2022 That's when the city administrator and myself reviewed the draft scales and that's when I think I sent Plenty of emails of questions and had three separate meetings with Patrick just to answer my questions and concerns of the study just to make sure I was understanding and questioning What I thought might be brought up brought forward later on in May of 2022 in June of this year We had presentations both at department head meetings and the committee and council meetings from Patrick those were in detail about the process the study all the results things like that and And in June of 2022 in July of 2022 I'm just saying that we were viewing the study by finance and personnel and also counsel It had gone to finance got approved to be pushed to council counsel as you know pushed it back to finance for further review So one thing that I had realized when we had conversations with certain individuals was that there was not very Very much clarity when it comes to certain definitions or words that we've been using Throughout this study process. So I just wanted to point out three just to help with hopefully the conversation today So we have the ratings which that is Carlson Dettman's calculated figure related to the requirements of each position So that rating is what was used to put people on to a grade So the grade is the range of pay that a position would pay and Then the step is the placement on the grade and the actual rate of pay somebody would receive So those are the three kind of terms that we use I will also say control point is another one that I should have at here So control point is using the 100% of our market data We will go further into that later But the control point is really where that middle point of the scale is And Patrick can correct me anytime if I miss they misspeak He's rating those So I just wanted to touch very high level on the Carlson Dettman process First they got all these job description questionnaires and they reviewed them and analyze them They met with the department heads to try and gain an understanding based on their expertise and what their Departments do they take those job description description errors and rate each position on five different factors and those are listed They go from thinking challenges and problem-solving work environment preparation and experience But you can see those five on the screen From there the jobs are placed on to grades based on that scoring or rating and they create benchmark jobs They then compare positions to market data to develop that wage scale Once they have a wage scale developed they use mathematical analysis to confirm accuracy and Compare that wage scale to the market data to make sure that we are using correct information And then they did provide the city with draft scales for review and at this point The they have been answering questions from the city on placements and following up with concerns as necessary I'm not sure if we want to continue or if people want question want to ask questions I Have a couple things that I had promised the committee so I do have those in my slides But I can leave it up to the chair if you'd like me to continue or break for any questions I'll give you a break for a moment just to ask anybody has any questions, but anything that's been Covered so far Oh, they're Perala So I have I have a question for for Patrick the the five criteria that determine the Rating do they weigh the same or one of them is more Important and others We had a similar conversation about that this afternoon and Yes, it's both your answers Or it's both your questions that when our job evaluation starts It's kind of like the SAT you sign your name today SAT you get a certain number of points And so in our system the lowest number of points you're gonna possibly ever see is 250 points at that stage 50 points for each criteria they're weighted equally at 20 percent as you work your way through the system So as your position gains in responsibility gains usually and required knowledge or education Bigger problems that you're resolving decision-making begins to control or be become the largest factor not by Leaps and bounds, but certainly, you know at a higher waiting and it stands to reason that the further you get up into an organization The more decision-making authority and and responsibility you're gonna be placed Right behind that would be thinking challenges and education Then interactions in the lowest weighted factor still weighted importantly is our work environment factor And so the question so the answer to question is at the beginning of the system It's more narrowly compacted in terms of the waiting as you get further and further through your pay structure Decision-making begins to take a prominent role may I So everything if I translate what you said to in terms that are that I can relate to If everything is equal, then you would look at the decision-making Let's say two positions have the same rating for all criteria then What is that you how would you evaluate a difference between the two positions would you would start looking at the decision-making level? So I'm trying to understand I'm trying to Make sense of the idea that they start having all the same value But then end up in and but decision-making Following followed by thinking challenging and problem-solving will then have a prominent or more prevalent Wait after that you threw a wrinkle that maybe is confusing me a little bit And you said they have the same criteria. They're the same job, then they would be rated the same I'm trying to answer that. I'm sure that you address this question in some of your meeting today I assume maybe not but due to the conversations I had with with some people before so if since some people notice some discrepancies between Levels that would otherwise be considered the same But so I'm trying to understand if the if if those in theory should be the same Maybe some of these criteria have been given a different way to depending on the department That's what I'm trying to understand. So if I I hope I'm you'll tell me if I don't answer your question that I think part of it is the perception that the jobs are saying the same Our challenge is that we don't work off of job title It's an incredibly dangerous thing for us to do that we have to dig into the job duties and responsibilities and other requirements to evaluate it so One one department one organization that these jobs are the same But when you dig in fact We had one where we had one of the departments is saying these jobs are identical And I actually took the two JDQs in the meeting and I used Microsoft word to actually merge them over the top of each other And it was night and day difference And so to say that the jobs are the same sometimes is not the same as digging into the job duties and responsibilities and then seeing that they're not the same so Perception is not always reality sometimes we and we had a couple of those where yeah, this is kind of like that other job We need to align that I mean there's you know those situations did exist But in many situations, it's not an apples to apples comparison in some situations And so it's you know kind of the connection from one pay system to the post-pay system There is no right and you didn't hire us or if you you know even going to anyone else to replicate what you already have You know the desire was let's look at our jobs independently evaluate them. Let's look at the market and come up with a structure that Then we have to dig into the duties and responsibilities which invariably means there's going to be differences from what is today Versus what's being recommended, you know And if there's some perception the jobs are identical and we like I said we've had a handful of those today as we dug further and further into them at least to us and some of those in fact I had some notes here in terms of some of the conversations was we need clarifying documentation what you're describing to us does not at all Exist in the job documentation. It was presented to us We need to get something either get it revised or we need to go with what's on paper already So it's it's not as clear-cut as saying the jobs are the same Thank you. Any other questions or comments on the material covered so far if not Thank You Patrick One question that was posed previously was about the potential of splitting out the public work scale Which is how the city has historically been doing the compensation plan but we did do some research and 13 of the communities that were reviewed They do not have separate scales and I would say that the majority of Municipalities from what I have been what I have seen and heard about they do not split out the scales So that is why we were we would be recommending still keeping those two scales together These are 13 of the comparable communities that we had considered in our study and it was the ones all available online With short amount of time to get research. So Patrick, can you come up to the microphone place that in our book of business? We don't have any clients that I'm aware of they have separate public works scales. We might have some they have a separate utility scale We might have some that have a separate library scale And then if I work in counties nursing homes are one that typically come out as is separate But usually if the jobs unless there's something incredibly unique about the organization and in public works Like I said, we we don't have any that are separate scales Could that happen in the future if the the you know the the skilled trades blue collar Roles keep evolving as we anticipate them the next few years sure, but in terms of today, we don't have that Oh, they're Dacker I guess I my question is that how do you how do you work when you when there's differences when they're when when? The wage scale needs to be adjusted for like a public works job, but how and when it's separate How do you then do that if you don't have a separate scale all of a sudden? You know the the the wage are the Position, you know the demand is greater It's so how do you then adjust that if you have it on the same wage scales as say? someone downtown here I Will just touch on city policy currently and then I'll have Patrick jump in Currently if there's a table of organization change that is actually built into our ordinances So similar to a budget amendment that would have to come through council if there was a budget impact But just because they're on the scale current on a curtain current grade at this moment doesn't mean it cannot be changed The director of public works can work with myself HR director and city administrator to formulate What would be a fair wage and that would be brought for the council for approval? Then I'll pass on to Patrick so I think the the underlying theme is this is that I Mean this when I say I love our job evaluation system. I think it helps cut through a lot of the Otherwise confusing aspects it boils it down to his duties and responsibilities But there are sometimes two occasions where we need to step outside of that system in terms of how we place jobs The first one would be compression You know in the police and fire world You know if the job evaluation and or market pricing doesn't our job evaluation system in conjunction with the market pricing Doesn't align there are times when we have to adjust positions manually to make certain that we have people promoting to those roles So compression would be the first one that we're Constantly addressing on our projects. The other one is market, you know that one that to which you're alluding which is And there are certain roles that are notoriously difficult or they ebb and flow just depending on the environment That if there's one clear market data that is showing us that our job evaluation system just isn't cutting it a really good example That doesn't apply here so it's easier to use is We do a job evaluation project and a market pricing for an electric utility You know the electric linemen might fit at this point in the grade But based on job evaluation, but we know if we don't have it up here You're never gonna hire another electric linemen We've got data for days for that particular role we can point to it. So every once in a while there's a market adjustment But we're always careful when we start talking about market because you know the goal in this particular case in the discussion Still is do you build a structure on the median market half pay more half pay less or do you push it a little bit further? Especially given the current economic times such as being recommended here to just kind of get ahead start knowing that the market's gonna catch back up is You're not looking at what's the highest employer paying in the marketplace Nor are you looking at them with the lowest is so it's always trying to find it What's that what's that place in the market in the data that aligns with your market philosophy? So I know a lot of times we'll have people saying hey, I've got this one employer who's paying more I Would guarantee you have one employer who's paying less just mathematically That's how it has to work But when you do have a job that is falling behind and this is probably another piece that we we work with clients on If it is hampering your ability to hire so not just as the market evolving But you know we used to get now I would say categorically across the state public works employees, you know, I've heard the story, you know Hundred times over we used to get 400 applicants for this role now. We're getting 50 That could be public works that could be jail or that could be correct Dispatcher that could be engineer you name the job title that there are just fewer applicants in general The question is what's a quality of those and if you're not getting the quality So if you get ten applications, but all ten are quality It's probably not an indication that you're really bottoming out Now if you get ten applications and none of them are worth worthy of hire now We got something we need to really dig into so it's it's not as easy as saying here's a market rate Let's plug it in here's a market rate Here's any hiring difficulties or recruiting challenges and then making that recommendation And we do that quite frequently with our clients that as you get further and further out in a new wage structure It loses, you know over the course of time, which is why every decade or so you want to kind of go back and revisit it But in the intervening time so our recommendation Recommendation only is every two to three two to four years But I would say probably three being the hallmark going back and revisiting the market not evaluating all the jobs Just saying where do we stand in the marketplace? Sometimes that analysis says hey, here's three jobs that have really fallen out of line We recommend you address those because of whatever particular circumstances We could also have I know I'm giving you a little bit more what you asked for But we could also say here's a job that's falling out of line with market But you're not experiencing the hiring challenges for whatever reason but you have the knowledge So if you do experience it here's the market rate You don't need to call us again. You've got that data in hand So market does play a role in terms of what we're looking at I guess the other question also when it comes to downgrading jobs Because a good example, I guess I'm gonna take that as is like our garbage system You know we used to have our guys used to ride on the back of the trucks hang on to the things They were jumping off in the middle of winter that the injury rate was Phenomenal or things like that. We now have an automated garbage system guys sit in truck They push buttons and not saying it's not a hard but it's not it's not as Risky of a job as what it was in the past. And so, you know the market is It is a little you know, so what about something like that? It was that you're a little bit high on that actually I Would dance the short answer is yes We do have situations that happen and we might even have some of those situations as we fine-tune and deliver final recommendations to the city where we have to address That very thing that you're discussing A lot of times, you know what will have will happen is that we're changing this job We're not gonna cut the existing employees and that they understand so but yeah, it happens and you know that hey We just automated dysfunctions. It kind of very similar to the I'll use that garbage truck example You know, but that happens, you know, we went from a manual meter read situation to a proximity reader or to a tower Based or whatever that you you took a lot of wear and tear off people's legs or driving You know those sorts of things that Technology and other program evolutions absolutely and you'll find Hey, we had somebody do this and we decided you know it was a nice to have not unnecessary to have and so we stripped that duty away So it doesn't happen as frequently as jobs evolving upwards But on the reclassification like when I say reclassification projects done adopted the years gone by two years have gone by that We will get those situations of Yep, it's just a different world and we need to change and so let's adjust it downward and so it happens all the time I guess Were there any other questions or comments before we continue? And this is kind of small up here, but I wanted to just go through the implementation that was originally proposed The each employee would go to the next Step on the grade that the study has placed them and we had it that if an employee had five years or more of experience at The city they would be moved to a step five minimum Trying to talk and point here at the same time So I did put a table together just for illustration purposes and again, it is pretty small up on the screen But we have two two individuals for example that have ten years of experience at the city and two Individuals with four years of experience at the city and then we have current step placement So we have somebody who's been here ten years. They're between a two and a three based on their current rate They're between those two steps on the scale because they have more than five years of experience They would have been placed at a step five if an individual has Ten years of experience and is currently between a eight and a nine They would have gone to a nine on this on the step in their grade for the same let's say the person only has four years of experience and it's the same type of Step placement currently the person who has four years of experience is between the two and a three They would go to a three. So the main difference between the ten and the four year Individual will say is that the ten-year individual would automatically get put at that step five when When when The person with four years of experience would only get to that next step Which is step three and then that last individual again because they're already between an eight and a nine Even though they only have four years of experience. They would go to a step nine and that is Likely because they got brought in at a higher rate than the person with the ten years of experience The Estimated cost for implementation. I reran these numbers again just to make sure that we were most up-to-date Currently we have for 2022 we would have a budget impact of just over $322,000 Dollars and we do have four hundred thousand dollars set aside for this So it would have about eighty thousand dollars of buffer which I would recommend using in 2023 because you can see the budget impact of just this Implementation proposal is eight hundred and eighty one thousand dollars Any questions on that Thank you What's the magic of five years? We had recommended five years because if they had come in at the minimum point that would have been the control They would have made it to the control point already and that is the control point. So that is putting them at the market rate Hundred percent of market rate correct Thank you Any other questions before we continue? Good to go All right, we had the request for another costing analysis Scenario so I came up with the attached analysis If we were to implement based on years in current position with the table that is shown on the screen if somebody were to have 30 years in the position They would be at a step placement of 13 at a minimum and it would go down to if you have five years in your position You would be at a step three That is the amounts that are listed below then it would be 286,000 for 2022 but then 2023 would be a higher increase from the initial proposed and it would be one 1.06 million dollars and that's mostly because there would not be as many individuals at that step five As we had discussed previously The schedule or the wage scale is actually set up that you get bumped up a little higher throughout the scale The steps one to five to get you to that control point and after that you're going up instead of two and a half percent it's one and a quarter percent and That would then have those the steps after the control point are stretched out a little further So that's where the initial plan has a little bit lower of a cost next year But it's really caught this year and then this actually has the opposite effect Hoping I'm making sense. So ask questions if you have them any questions So far so good. Okay, and I do want to mention the factor with the next step We do have a two and a half percent cola or cost of living adjustment factored in at this point just for reference purposes Additionally I wanted to just point out again the cost of Putting individuals on the step on the grade based on their actual tenure So if we were to look at somebody with 30 years of experience Technically if they would have gone through the scale they would have been maxed out So that is this cost the seven hundred four thousand would just be this year's cost and it'd be one point three four million next year Now I'm going to backtrack in my PowerPoint a second So I just also wanted to touch on the back pay. I Wanted just to Bring it to the committee's attention again that the current version of munis or the payroll system that we have at this moment Does not easily determine back pay. It is actually Very very manual and we just did back pay for the police union contract and that was Actually, and I I would feel bad saying it was simple because it's not simple But it was two full days of work just to implement that and calculate and set up our payroll system for that And it was just changing the rates the salary structure was already in there The positions were already attached to that salary structure. It was just changing rates So if we do the complete comp plan implementation and have back pay with that We aren't even sure how much time that would take because we're manipulating every single position Every single person in each position and then we're also having to manually calculate all back pay. I Just wanted to bring it up because the amount of work is substantial and the employees who are Would be in charge of this are actually already helping human resources department Significantly, so it would just be a lot on the people that are handling this And that's all I had in my presentation, but of course we can answer any questions Bring up any concerns that you may have while we have these two awesome consultants with us So that we can make sure that we address anything you have Well, they're flaky finisky. Thank you. I would like to hear from Patrick and Sandy about the Meetings with those department heads who chose to have meetings and what some of that outcome was I told Sandy to interrupt me anytime. She pleases here. So if I get it perfectly, she won't but I know she's also not afraid to so yeah, we met with six departments today community development court fire library public works in it. I missed someone. I apologize, but I think that was the extent of what we reviewed and Throughout the day, I think we had some very good conversations some vigorous more vigorous than others but if I look at there was basically five Tenetive outcomes, you know that we We were here to listen and we knew that we would have to dig a little bit more deeply on some of the classifications depending on what we received so Couple of them we realized pretty quickly in our conversation that and I think I alluded to this previously that The documentation Did not have what we were hearing from the department heads and so trying to get that clarified our preference as it should be yours is It's it's it's much more important to have the written confirmation of those duties than the verbal It's you know, we found over the course of the years that There's something more meaningful about putting what you're putting it into writing as opposed to just simply stating it Some of the jobs or at least a couple of them have changed in the interim of this process You know and it's been and that's not at all surprising and so again We're awaiting some additional clarification on the job documentation Some were clear both ways. Yeah, either this doesn't make sense. I don't know that we could get behind this and others that yep Got to change it, you know and based on what we had or Additional clarification based on what we were able to dig through the job documentation, but there were some that were very clear many of the requests and I and I said this jokingly but I think the people knew when I was that they were Implementation issues as opposed to job evaluation or job grading issues Which really kind of fall back on the city because That involves the amount of money that you are willing and or able to spend in the implementation of this process And so any deviation from what Caitlin just presented We would need to have the city make certain that they were comfortable with that if at all and then there was One or two of them that really resulted in more strategic conversations that here's where the position Should be but it's not currently performing at that level and so some conversations about here's what you would need to include to add To coach existing employees to to get it to the grade where it was being sought and again That's not an uncommon conversation relating to Whether it's in a formal appeals process or the preliminary review in this particular case to have those conversations that no This is this isn't the job. We're seeing but here's how to get to the job that you're seeing and and I thought those were pretty particularly valuable I think as we look at you know some of the conversations regarding the conversation of the current system to the proposed system That I think a lot we're trying to link one to the other in terms of grade placement or you know Grade structuring to be honest and and I do this on purpose on these projects I almost always never look at the prior system because I don't want that to influence our results You paid for an original review. You should get an original review of the system now at the end Of course there are conversations because even though we don't view it the employees certainly do have that view of the world Hey, I was a grade 10 before why aren't I a grade 10 before? But any linkage to the two you know is pure happenstance as opposed to intentional I Think you know and I think Caitlin said this before and I've heard Todd say it and I'll just say it myself that the last thing I would wish on any particular client is to Conduct a study of this nature without a human resources department intact Todd and Caitlin have kept this ball rolling Despite the turnover you've had have been as engaged as any client that we've had And have been very particular not to to put their thumbs on any scale just like hey, here's this position We've received questions from our department. What do you think? But I've received zero coaching of this position shall be at this level or shall be at this grade And so I want to make that distinction that we we have really been called upon to kind of be that independent on the set of eyes And I think we've heard a couple you know that in light of Some recent you know challenges internally that some departments have just said you know I've done what I we've done what we needed to do to keep our human resources Operations afloat which might not otherwise be ideal in terms of centralized versus decentralized I get it you know that you know nature abhors a vacuum and when you do have that vacuum people are going to do Whatever they can to keep things moving, but some evidence of that as we we've gone through today In terms of I just want to make certain that we talk I want to talk about a couple things because Caitlyn's thrown some terminology out Accurate information, but as we look at this Based on some of the conversations we've had you know we talk We use the terms percent and percentile sometimes interchangeably and It can get confusing and since this is being recorded. Luckily. There's the opportunity to go back and review This is I spit it out of it when we talk about the control point being 100% of market That's 100% of the estimated market for that grade Which let's just us for the sake of argument today, you know that we're gonna stick with the median market We're not talking about any you know blend to kind of advance it That that 100% is the 50th percentile of the market and so percent You know we build the minimum and the maximum on percentages of that control point That control point is intended to be the median the 50th percentile of the marketplace in most cases But I hear this term market rate batted around quite a bit that I have a job that is rated at $25 an hour at the control point People think that we've come up with some sort of magic number that we've been able to pull from the mountaintop to say This is a $25 an hour job We could have 10 different surveys and I can have one survey giving me a $23 an hour rate a $27 an hour rate and anything in between I could have one give me an $80 an hour rate that we ultimately we have to throw You know do the statistical analysis but the point is that that Grade is intended to represent the market for that job or at least the approximated market that Minimum to the maximum is intended to reflect the market range of pay that would otherwise be acceptable So to hear the term market rate I would love it to be at that control point or at least within a step or two beyond that Realistically speaking you know that we try to make certain you know again through our analysis that that those That we're not falling too far out of you know give or take five percent it happens But again, you've got a pretty healthy Width of jobs in between so I want to just like I said I want to make certain that we understand when we talk about market rate Sometimes implies a level of precision that I don't think anybody can provide and when we talk about percents versus percentiles I know that that can get lost in the weeds very quickly. I sometimes have to revisit myself to make certain that we don't So that was kind of a high level of overview. We Just kind of in terms of follow-up. I'm sure that's probably also, you know, where do we stand? What is this going to be done? As I indicated that there's a handful of jobs we need revised and or new job documentation That could materialize overnight, which I doubt people got other things that they need to do as part of their jobs I would expect it's probably going to take a week or so and and so making certain that we have that information and Then going back through and some of those some of these things will be able to analyze relatively quickly Some of them we already accomplished today in terms of our cleanup So I would expect in the next couple of weeks to have the information upon my return I'll be going on vacation the first week of August here and then Upon my return my intent is to just plow through that because it's not it's a day's worth of work if that if not So we're waiting for more documentation and additional analysis and then having the recommendations back to the city Did I answer it? I know you asked for additional clarification. I answered providing what you were seeking. I Have a question about the 50th percentile. I am remembering the graph that we saw that had the Had the line and then it plotted our own salary along the 50th percentile And they were fairly close together is am I you're correct I'm correct. Okay, so when we talk about taking It to the 60 62 and a half percent Tile 62 and a half percentile. Sure. So instead of keeping our wages Smack in the middle or just a little bit above Because of the time Where we are in the universe about hiring people yeah, we've decided to move People up to the 62 and a half percentile. Correct. Thank you. And it's done for two reasons One is exactly that the market is continuing to move and probably will Even if we get you know declared with the recession anytime soon It's still gonna keep moving because we don't have enough employees to fill all the roles that we have The second and I in fact, I know it's true with your study as it is with every other study In fact, I had one last week where I was meeting with the village board and 75 percent of their comparable Organizations were in the process of conducting their own wage studies. So we knew that data we were using Was going to become obsolete pretty quickly not by you know huge percentage is by by enough to be measurable And so making those recommendations to kind of cushion the blow of those additional Wage studies coming online and being adopted allows you to weather that storm a little bit more easily as well Did you have any other follow-up? I actually have a I Have I have a question for Sandy Do it Sandy with a different perspective and a different set of eyes Patrick Patrick talked about the five or six things that Were significant that were brought up did you See the same things and be see other things in addition Yes, and so from a human resources perspective I had several observations in terms of listening to the departments today that maybe have added a little bit to The lack of the administration may be with the current pay plan So for example departments are modifying their job descriptions and because of the void in your human resources department There isn't anyone in HR that are vetting whether those are Regular and permanent changes or temporary changes and so sometimes you need to change a job description on a temporary basis Because it's just the market you you can't fill the job the way it is So you have to ask other staff to step up, but sometimes then those job descriptions become Permanent changes and so are those job descriptions being updated accurately in the files And so some of the other thing with the job descriptions not being updated We had departments trying to look at where their jobs were rated in comparison with other job descriptions That they could view online through the neoguff system and many of those job descriptions that appears have not been updated So the departments that are trying to do comparisons are looking at maybe old data not their fault It's just what is there for them right now? I think kind of a lack of a good administrative Policy in terms of how do you make changes in the comp plan and when is it okay for a department to make that? When does it need the administrator and HR's approval and and how do you adjust positions? I think there needs to be some more defined policy guidance for that What's required for a position and we dealt with this in Appleton to Departments are saying it absolutely have to have a master's degree or bachelor's degree But HR would say you really don't need a master's or a bachelor's degree and if you looked at the market It isn't required it might be a preferred And so you want to make sure that there isn't a manipulation of the system that you have kind of a standard What is required for educational background? What is required for experience level and that's applied consistently across the departments? To changes What I heard today from some departments is there's some modification of to is that haven't gone through any approval process So someone is no longer performing let's say in a supervisory role, but the rated is a supervisor and that was changed just because I Don't know why that was changed and so there was no approval for that right so there's been a lack And I think a lot of that comes from the turnover in your HR department is not having really good guidance and administration for How things move in the compensation plan? Patrick touched a little bit upon and I think we're all used to in government is we just want to get it done And we don't want to have any changes right because nobody likes change I think with this compensation plan you need to be open to change So if all of a sudden we feel like we aren't getting applications We can't fill a position or a job is changed either because we made a structural change or Over the course of ten years through gradual and incremental changes this position no longer looks like it did ten years ago Department needs to be able to come forward to HR and say I think we need to relook at this position I no longer think it's placed appropriately in that comp plan and you need to have a process to allow for that to happen to Keep your compensation plan current I Think those were the majority of things that like I kind of observed from just a human resource process thing There was one other thing Patrick didn't touch on though that I wanted to mention too when he does the evaluation In his system. He does not look at the person the name the gender of those positions He is evaluating those positions based on the job duties and what was submitted in that JDQ So you can think of a JDQ is like a really comprehensive job Description and those were completed by the employees and then we're supposed to be vetted up the chain of command And then through HR should have also kind of added those to say are there any anomalies things that don't make sense And I think was some of the transition in your HR department. I'm not sure that that vetting really took place That's why I think it was important for the departments to have an opportunity come today and really kind of talk through some of those changes And then I already touched on some of the job documentation in your neoguff system appears to be outdated So one of the recommendations would be once you get through this compensation study I think all of your job descriptions need to be updated to comply with what was submitted on the JDQ's Perfect, okay Thank you. Yeah Oh, they're a I was wondering the So if I understand correctly the Some people will be able to adjust the JDQ to capture some nuances or Substantial aspects. I don't know that Perhaps were not captured from the start is that right? That's what you said Patrick, right that that is going to happen in some cases Okay, so you met six Departments heads and how many positions were actually Addressed and which translates in how many jobs? I could probably count a little bit. I kind of made notes It was between 20 and 30 I think is a safe number overall might have been a little bit more than that some of them were grouped together, but I think by and large it was Not an overwhelming 2030 excuse me Patrick 2030 actual jobs or positions jobs actual jobs. Yes, okay Any other questions or comments? chair Can I ask a question to? Caitlin by all means Caitlin the So you said that the As far as munis goes we that the manual type of job that Hypothetically we should be doing or need to do if we wanted to Remember that the munis manual work that you were referring to is that because we don't have a module Munis or is because munis doesn't have that capability in any case It is actually the current version of munis we are on so we are doing an upgrade again in a few weeks And so that will become available However, I did talk to the munis I went to a munis training a few weeks back and she told me that any payrolls that are Being run in the current system will not work with the even once we go to the upgrade So it would have to be any payrolls that are run in the upgraded version That back pay is is a bit easier to do So it would be a bit easier to do with a new upgrade It will but the July 10th date that will be a payroll that was run in our old system and that would be very difficult Okay, thank you Any other discussion on this one? chair just one more Thank you Caitlyn the cola the two two point five percent for cola that would be Implemented no matter what right? That will be determined during budget time So we have an anticipation that there will be a cost of living adjustment No matter what the outcome of the compensation study is but depending on how much the compensation Study takes of the budget that cola could be adjusted So it could be less than two point five Or more I suppose depending on how much our number how our figures come through. Thank you Thank you chair Oh, they're flaky Panasky and a follow-up to that all employees get a cost of living adjustment Correct. So the cost of living adjustment actually will move the entire scale for non-represented employees And then we already have Contracts for those who are represented in the union and they have already Negotiated the rate of increase for them. Thank you other comments questions That's our time to ask what we have Patrick and Sandy in the room with us All the Pirella I'm not sure chair if this is the right time But I would like to to hear from the department's heads as well. Should we do that at another time or should we do that now? I would say that's not germane to what we currently have in front of us. I would have to be something Separate and in the future. Okay, keep that going. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right Any other discussion? Administrator will Close one. Yeah, thank you chair. I just want to thank everybody. I know that this process has been going For a very long time. I know that we're still any program that the That would come forward Especially when it comes to a wages We're never gonna please everybody There's been a lot of discussion and concern whether our our past program was actually The correct program that we should have in place and again, we don't have any documentation to To better understand how that was developed and put together But we've had it for for many years from a prior human resource position We've done our due diligence in Communicating with all of the departments and we've done a really good job I feel in talking with them and getting Patrick and Sandy on board to help continue that discussion again, there's there's still going to be some Some frustration and some friction just because there's We all have our our different opinions on what's going on But really what what we are bringing forward is a program that has a good strong foundation that we can build on into the future and Again, the implement it is two pieces the implementation part is really going to be budget driven For the city to decide on and I know Caitlyn's been running all kinds of Different concepts and how it's going to work and we have to be very careful because We're trying to fix what has what has been a problem for many many many years as we've Obviously uncovered and when and again, we want to take care of our employees And we want to make sure that we're marketable for new employees coming in so again I want to thank everyone. I want to thank Patrick for coming in I want to thank Sandy for coming in and helping out from an HR perspective and I just want to thank the committee for again allowing us time to Continue to review and answer questions and make sure that we vet this as best as possible But I still feel very strongly that this is a good program We as a as a city can continue to make additional improvements moving forward But at least we've got a good platform That makes sense. So thank you Thank you and Also wanted to make sure that I took the time to thank both you Patrick and Sandy for coming in today and Everybody who has been involved in this process it has not been Small or fast I wouldn't say I know there's been a lot of time and effort that's gone in Trying to shape the absolute best plan that we can put together for all of our city employees whether it's You representing your own position your department or Working on the administrative side of putting the final plan together All that time spent is very much appreciated. I hope that that reflects how much we care That that is something that everybody is noticing because I a lot of people are going above and beyond With that I will ask if there are any other comments on this one. Otherwise, we'll be looking for a motion to All right, we have a motion a second then seeing no further discussion All in favor All opposed Chair votes, aye the ayes haven't the motion passes Thank you again And next up we have item number 15 almost done Which is the hiring process update for the director of human resources and labor relations Administrator wall. Thank you. I was getting all excited about leaving We do have another interview with another candidate tomorrow Otherwise, we've had three three applications And really we'll we'll know more after tomorrow's interview on the next steps To you know to whittle it down to hopefully You know two or one so that's where we are today Questions on the update Otherwise that one is for discussion only so I will move on to state that our next regularly scheduled meeting is on august 8th and with that we have exhausted our agenda and We're looking for a motion to adjourn Fastest motions of the evening We have a motion and a second then seeing no discussion all in favor All opposed chair votes, aye the ayes haven't the motion passes. We are adjourned Thank you everybody