 Good morning, and welcome to the 10th meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Our first item of business today is to take a decision on whether we take items 4 and 5 in private. Are we all agreed on that? Thank you very much. Our agenda item number 2 is the DWP role in devolved social security. This morning, we are going to hear from Chloe Smith, MP, Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work to discuss how the Department for Work and Pensions is supporting the Scottish Government in its implementation of social security provisions of the Scotland Act 2016. There is an interdependence between the hybrid Scottish and UK systems, both in terms of delivery infrastructure and decision making, and the committee is keen to develop its working relations across the nations, both at parliamentary and governmental level. I welcome to the meeting Chloe Smith, Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work. The minister is accompanied by Andrew Lattow, the Deputy Director of Pensioner Benefits and Careers Allowance Policy within the devolution team, and Margaret Morrison, the area director for Work and Pensions Services Scotland at the Department for Work and Pensions. I will start by inviting the minister to make a short opening statement before moving to questions from committee members. Over to you, Minister. Thank you very much indeed, Ms Whitman. Can I first of all double-check that you can hear me and see me as you'd expected? Yes, we can. Great, that's an excellent place to start. Thank you very much indeed, Ms Whitman, for inviting us today and for your predecessor having issued the invitation. We're very pleased to be here to talk about the issues at hand. I wonder if it might just be helpful to make a few, as you invite me to, broader remarks before we start. What I wanted to begin by saying was underlining our long-standing commitment at the UK Government to devolution. Of course, the Scotland Act, as you know, devolved significant social security powers to the Scottish Parliament for legislative responsibility transfer to Scottish ministers in 2016 with executive competence passing on in 2020 and April. A range of benefits continue to be administered by DWP on behalf of Scottish ministers. What that means in practice is that my department and I continue to work in close collaboration with the Scottish Government, including Social Security Scotland, at both ministerial and official level to support the implementation of the devolved powers. By way of example, this includes sharing information to support the administration of the new benefits such as carers allowance, supplement providing access to our customer information systems to identify and verify information, as well as giving Social Security Scotland the use of our payment and accounting services. As you will know, we have already commenced the transfer of some existing clients with DLA children cases, and joint planning is under way in relation to the transfer of the other existing case loads. I think that our core priority here, our core shared priority, is to do this safely and securely without disruption to claimants. All of this is not without its challenges, which of course it would be good to discuss today. I think that we are all aware that there is a really ambitious to-do list ahead of us in 2022. The resource that this requires from both Governments is considerable. I think that as we saw during the pandemic, we are at our strongest when we are able to work together to achieve these common goals. It is absolutely essential to maintain an open dialogue between the two Governments to ensure that we understand the Scottish Government's policy and design at the earliest opportunity. Especially in cases where the Scottish Government is relying on DWP to support its delivery, that allows us to do the necessary planning and to avoid having unnecessary interdependencies at a policy data or operational level. As we move forward, many people in Scotland will receive support from both Governments, many recipients of Scottish Social Security benefits also having reserved DWP benefits and employment support. Again, we need to have very clear close working together, which we intend to do, to help claimants to be clear about how to get the support that they need from both organisations. As and when systems diverge in the future, we intend to continue to work very closely with the Scottish Government to understand the relationship between the devolved and reserved elements to make sure that we take into account people's experiences. For me, I really want to work together to deliver all this because I want Scottish people to get the support and the opportunities that they need. When we do work together successfully, we are helping people to be safer and stronger and more prosperous. For me, I see it as an absolute privilege to be in this role and therefore to be with you today answering questions in the committee because it is so important to provide that foundation at scale for so many citizens. As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Andrew Lattow, who is my deputy director for devolution, and Margarita Morrison, who will be able in particular to illustrate how we serve Scottish people on the ground through the job centres and so much more. Thank you very much, minister, for your opening statements. I am now going to move straight into questions from members. There is a lot of interest, as you can imagine this morning, to put questions to you, minister. I would urge my colleagues that if a question has been answered, we can make sure to allow enough time for discussion to reframe your question a little bit. We have five broad themes that we are going to be looking at. The first is going to be UK disability benefit reform. We are then going to move on to questions around about passported benefits, then on to case transfer, then on to Scottish child payment data sharing and finally ending with some questions around the fiscal framework review. I am going to start off with my colleague Miles Briggs, who is in the room and then we will move to Pam Duncan Glancy, who is also in the room. Over to yourself, next slide. Thank you, convener. Good morning, minister. Good morning to your officials as well. Thank you for joining us today. I wanted to start with looking at how the systems work during the pandemic, because I think we would all accept that there has been really unprecedented pressures put on the social security system. I wanted to ask specifically how the systems, both within DWP but also working with Social Security Scotland, have been able to respond to that? Well, thank you very much indeed, Mr Briggs. This is of course critical, because I think that one of our really core common goals here ought to be how we recover from the pandemic and support people in doing so right across the United Kingdom and certainly that is forefront in my mind. I think that the scale of what we have been able to do speaks for itself, because what you saw during the pandemic was the way in which we had to work together to be able to face up to one of the biggest challenges in recent memory. If you look at what we were able to do, for example, through the furlough scheme and more, you can see to the tune of 900,000 jobs in Scotland having been supported or indeed protected by the UK Government's scale. So that's just to begin to give an idea of the extent of what we have been through. Of course, at the same time, you had systems like Universal Credit hugely ramping up again to be able to support people in their hour of need. I can pass to Margarita if she'd like to add some more practicality about what that looked like in the immediate circumstances as people walk through the door of job centres in need. What I would then just point to as well is, as I say, how much we have to do now together to recover. Much of that can be supported from DWP services and in the common work that we've got to do together that I've already been talking through. Of course, a lot of this is much wider as well into the broader needs of the economy. Would it be helpful, Mr Briggs, if I do let Margarita say something just on the front line part? We practically doubled our case load at the beginning of Covid, so it was very important that we brought in additional colleagues. We brought in about 1200 additional work coaches in Scotland, and we did fast track training to make sure that they could do the immediate things, and that was about getting people paid. Our job centres remained open throughout, and even during the period where the whole country was closed down, we made sure that we were doing customer welfare calls so that we could understand people at home on any help that we could provide with them. If there were any issues of concern, we passed them over to our Advanced Customer Service Leads to make sure that they were in touch and that they could talk through and help and support what the customer actually needed. We do work very closely with the Scottish Government. We have a joint operational forum where issues are discussed, but the key thing for us was to make sure that people had the money in their pockets, and then we could then start to talk to them about their future at a later stage of the pandemic. It worked very well. I will get the exact figure, but it was mid-90 per cent that we got people paid on time at the beginning of the pandemic, so the system stood up extremely well. Thank you for that. That is very good to hear. I wanted to ask further to that. Now we are coming out of the pandemic. The future plans we have, before I come on to some of the disability benefit reform questions, how is the labour market in Scotland recovering from some key programmes that we really need to see to help people into work? For example, the kickstart programme. How is that being embedded in Scotland as well? Yes, certainly. On the kickstart programme, we have significant success with that, but 11,000 young people into work over the last period, which has been really exciting. Some fantastic stories, both on the disability and ill health run. Mental health has been a very big issue during the pandemic, and we are taking extra care to give support either over or out there. We tend to favour face-to-face, and I give that direct support to the customer that we will do to life if there is a mental health issue or anything else that the customer has explained. That taught us a lot in terms of pace and speech. It is just really important to get people into work very, very quickly, particularly those who have just come out of work and are very keen to get back into the labour market. It is a lot of great stories. We have used a lot of the learning of kickstart, and in our way to work programme now, we are making sure that we are equally talking to our employers out there, bringing them on-site, and trying to cut away some of the paperwork that we do, like CVs and supporting letters, to make sure that we can join up the employer and the young person, or the person looking for work, our plus 25 customers, et cetera, so that they can get a chance to have a great conversation. We have seen customers leaving the job centre with each other because we have had the employer on-site. The other thing that we are doing is the success of our job spheres and our youth hubs. We are very successful, because in the youth hubs, for example, we had young customers there who got peer support from other young customers, as well as the support, for example, our annual youth hub was extremely successful in that people had a connection there, and were able to talk through what they wanted to do with other people. So real success there. In addition to that, we want to take some of that forward now for our older customers to make sure that they get the opportunity of that. We are looking at that at the moment. The other thing that we are doing on a large scale is job spheres throughout Scotland, and as an example of that, towards the end of March, we are going into every local authority area that we would like us to, and at the moment we are speaking to them, and it appears to be a lot of them, where we can carry out care job spheres because we do feel that a lot of our customers have got those entry-level skills that will help the care sector during the time where they have unemployment. So we are hoping that we can really assist with that. There are a number of initiatives on the go, and we are also talking to the Scottish Government. One of the additional things that we are doing with the Scottish Government is we are doing a pilot in Dundee, with Dundee City Council in the Scottish Government, on loan payments. We are really just trying to understand what are the current barriers to work and overcoming those together so that we can help them get work. Hopefully that is a favour. I was just going to add a bit, because part of your question was also the scale of the statistics. If it would be helpful, I just wanted to add to the extent that, at the UK level of course, as the economy continues to rebound and we come back after the pandemic, you are seeing 1.2 million vacancies currently available, many of which are in sectors absolutely vital for our recovery. The priority is to be able to go further and go faster and help people into the jobs that they can do right now, find a job, progress in work, thrive in the labour market, wherever that may be. Of course, at a Scotland level, if I look at the rates of those who are seeking work, the number of Scottish people seeking work has come down on the previous quarter, which is a positive thing. Indeed, it is lower than the same rate for the UK as a whole, 3.6 per cent compared to 4.1 per cent, which I think is a positive position to be looking from. Thank you for that. I am pleased to hear about that work and it would be useful if you could keep the committee informed on any of these programmes as they are developed as well. I think that we would all appreciate advanced knowledge around that. Moving on, I also wanted to ask, finally before I hand back to yourself, with regard to how the DWP and Social Security Scotland have functioned and worked together during this period, we know that there is going to be significant work coming forward involving the Scottish Government, especially in developing proposals around changing PIP and DLA. I just wondered how that relationship is being built. I know yourself and the minister went to university together. I think that it is hopefully that positive relationship is being built for organisations working together to help make that a smooth transition as possible. You are absolutely right on that. Mr McPherson and I have had a chance to know each other in a couple of different roles and it is a pleasure to continue to work with him. At ministerial level, we have the right relationships to exchange the ideas, the work, the detail that we need to do. We regularly support that by the joint ministerial working group on welfare, which is the structure that goes around our work as individual ministers. In addition to that, my officials run at various levels of programme, run all the work that is necessary to co-operate. On that, I wonder if I might bring in Andrew to mention a few more parts of that. I will say that this has been a lot of extensive work considering that we are talking about what has been needed since the earlier legislation that brought about the devolution. Considering the length of time still to play in some of the agency agreements and the work that I referred to in my opening remarks, these are relationships that will need to endure as well. If I invite Andrew to describe them a bit more. I will be very happy to thank you minister. There are a number of informal and formal structures between the two Governments. The most established ones are around Fair Star Scotland, with the fair work part of the Scottish Government, and the contractors are sort of a Fair Star Scotland. We have a model that works and we are trying to transfer the bits of that that work across to co-operation and social security. If I might characterise it, I would say that there are three communities. There is the operational community, so there is Margarita and Margarita's counterpart in Social Security Scotland, Mr Wallace. There are the two devolution programmes, one in DWP, which is turning things off and one in Scottish Government, which is turning things on. That has very formal structures as it will have to because of the nature of the work that is being undertaken. There is my community, which is the policy community, and I talk very frequently to my counterpart in the Scottish Government. The one that you asked about is the developing relationship between Social Security Scotland and DWP operations. That is probably the one that is the most work-in-progress. We certainly co-operated a lot during the pandemic. Excellent colleagues in Social Security Scotland were delivering carousel and supplement and Scottish health payment, funeral expenses and all of those things, but inevitably we had to carry on delivering DLA for children when we had intended to replace that with child disability payment and we also had very practical discussions here. We have a lot of people who work in Dundee, the job centres, pension centres or whatever it is. Social Security Scotland's main centre is in Dundee. They can help us, we can help them, but we've got peaks and drops of work because we've got people trained to do very similar work. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. I'll now hand it over to my colleague Pam Duncan-Glancy, and after that it'll be Jeremy Balfour. Pam? Thank you, convener. Minister and your officials, it's good to meet you. I just want to start on the kind of disability benefit reform but also with a word of caution about the workplace statistics that you shared. Some of those statistics may indeed hide some inequalities in the workforce and in the workplace, and they also may be people getting into work that isn't necessarily secure long-term or more hours than just a few and in some cases zero hours. Just to ask that perhaps some of that data is also considered so that we make sure that the whole economy and everyone in it is doing better and not just some of us. On the disability benefit reform, I'd be really keen to start by asking a question about access to work actually and where that sits with that and whether or not the minister believes that some of the changes put in place during the pandemic for access to work around electronic submission of claims, et cetera, which were quite useful for a number of disabled people could be made permanent and I have two further questions after that, but they're short. Thank you very much indeed Ms Duncan-Glancy and it's great to join you at the committee. I understand your point about the statistics first off and if I may, I just want to underline how committed I also am to supporting in particular disabled people and those with health conditions in the right way into employment. For me, it's not just to start a job, it's to start and stay and succeed in a job and I hope those would be values that we all share as we scrutinise data that really, of course, is about people's lives not about numbers. Coming on to access to work I'll just make a few brief points and then I'll draw on Margarita for the practicality of how this has been run through her job centres. Indeed, there have been a few easements that we've made in access to work as we had across a number of different DWP services through the pandemic and I think the broad point for me is that I'm really open to reviewing those, learning from them and taking forward the good afterwards after the pandemic in the recovery that we're now looking towards. I think for me, the key as well in access to work is that we want to be able to make sure people are getting their support quickly and I'm conscious that over the last couple of years, there have been delays in people getting access to work. We've been open about that and open about how we are working to try to get those down. Let's see Margarita, get those down and get the support where it's needed as quickly as possible. For example, right now we are ensuring that those who have a job offer or indeed a self-employed person who needs to start something that we are processing those applications inside four weeks because we think that's the right thing to do to support a person as they needed at the sharp end. If I just turn to Margarita you might be able to add a bit more about what that's been like through the pandemic Some of the just give you some top headlines then I'll give you some information on what's actually happening in our job centres. Over the past 18 months the access to work has delivered in-depth upscaling sessions a wide variety of internal colleagues including our work coaches, our disability employment advisers and their employer advisers. Externally we've provided awareness of access to work to a range of organisations employers, customer representative groups and this will continue throughout 2022 folks and activities in areas with the largest disability employment gap in Scotland. We frequently promote access to work through the department's social media channels and introduce specific access to work pages on the job help website. We are taking a range of steps to continue to raise awareness of access to work among people with a disability or health condition in all parts of the country. We regularly promote the scheme through department's channels and access to work pages. We're also ensuring that our advisers who work with potential claimants including Job Centre plus health professionals and advisory groups have the information. We're talking regularly to disability confident employers of which there are 1,400 in Scotland to make sure that we can work in collaboration to get the best outcome for our customers. In terms of some practical things that we are doing we're working very closely at the moment in some of our offices with GP surgeries just to understand better. We've got work coaches in there at the moment so that we can understand what the barriers are. We work with autism Scotland around autism accreditation and making our job centres better places to be so that people have a calm atmosphere in which to talk to us about their aspirations. We have practised pilot health model offices in Scotland at the moment and that's really just working along with our NHS colleagues and others really just to try and understand what barriers are there to jointly overcome them. We have advanced customer support so I mentioned it earlier that where we think someone needs more time on their application or in the discussion we're having with them we will make referrals to advanced customer support or particularly our disability employer advisors. They carry out a duro they can talk to customers about their needs and overcome the barriers with them and they are training our work coach colleagues so that everybody has got awareness in those where to go on matters such as that. We also have youth employee work coaches and they work with claimants with multiple barriers and again our youth hubs has helped to provide another environment that we can take them to and spend the necessary time from to make sure we get the right outcomes for them so just a flavour there. Thank you both for that that's really helpful. My other question is how does the minister and the DWP plan to include the Scottish Government in the development of the reforms to personal independence payment and how much consideration is being given to the effect on potential case law divergence? Thank you for that question and I suppose in many ways that brings us on to the areas where we have such close work to do together. Of course what is happening is that the Scottish Government is introducing its ADP adult disability payment to replace PIP from and that's from March this year in three local authority areas two further early implementation areas and then full national roll-out at the end of August so what we're of course doing is to make sure at a legislative level that that is orderly taking through some Scotland Act orders just recently to support the introduction of ADP in much greater detail though there is then the full devolution programme that is working together to make sure that this is a safe and secure transfer. I'll just first start with the general points obviously the design and any questions to do with ADP would be for the Scottish Government to answer for you and anything in terms of PIP are questions that I and the team here today would be able to to try to tackle for you but I think the key point for me is that we do want to be able to jointly have a stable system that is getting people the support that they need on time and in as far as the PIP side of things goes I do acknowledge that there can be in some cases an amount of time that people are waiting for the PIP decision to come through that's been in large part due to the pandemic with various problems to do with assessments that have related to how people can be how people can be seen but there's a number of ways that we can put together we at DWP and with Social Security Scotland to make sure that we between us have the right assessors in place and the right processes in place to support that so that people are getting the support that they need could I just ask for some clarification sorry minister I probably wasn't as clear on my original question as I should have been it was more in relation to the green paper that proposes changes to disability benefits which might indeed have an impact on people in Scotland and it was just to ask what sort of engagement you have with the Scottish Government on that particular process I'm sorry I did misunderstand your question thank you for clarifying that so what we have here is a broad piece of work on the part of the UK Government which is as you say green paper to do with the health and disability benefits it's called shaping future support and that was brought out last year and in that as you know we are committed to bringing forward a white paper this year so work has gone on to get actually a great range of responses in on the consultation four and a half thousand in fact which are really value and then from there to shaping what we think may be the way forward to fulfil the objectives that we set out there in that green paper in supporting people to live independently and to have the right kind of experience of the benefits system and it also indeed to support people into work where that's appropriate in terms of how we need to dovetail that with the Scottish Government I think it's fair to say actually that if you like while that review is our piece of work the Scottish Government also I understand has an independent review on its side and I think it's actually quite right and fair that those two pieces of work are within each of our responsibilities where we will need to work together is to ensure that we are doing a safe and secure transfer of people from those who've been claiming the reserve benefits to the ADP in Scotland so in as much as it's in a shared space I'm always very happy to have conversations with my Scottish Government colleagues about our green paper but actually it may be the case that we've got to quite understandable different lines of work going here Thank you very much for that I'll hand over now to Jeremy Balfour for his questions I know that my colleague Marie McNair has had her question on this theme answer to them we'll go back to Pam Duncan-Bazie for theme 2 after that Jeremy and to your officials I wonder if I can just follow up very briefly on a question for my colleague Pam in regard to access to work it seems to me it's one of these hidden secrets that a lot of people don't know about and I was interested your official saying what we're trying to do to promote it more I'm just wondering is this a joint piece of work that you've ever discussed I know it's a DWP benefit money comes from DWP but it seems to me still that many companies, particularly smaller companies medium-sized companies don't know about access to work and just wondering if you can maybe give us some idea about how we can even promote it better both Governments together on that Well thank you very much for that Mr Balfour because access to work is so valuable and so needed to all our interests to be able to raise awareness as you say access to work is and will remain a scheme provided by the Department for Work and Pensions so we will retain responsibility for that but nonetheless I would hope that the message could go out from this committee and in other opportunities to as you say raise awareness and information of it what we've been doing recently on that is in various ways across the United Kingdom is working with stakeholder organisations to raise awareness and ensure that their members know about the scheme we want to work with employer associations as well we are working with disability charities and disabled people's organisations I think that is absolutely critical by the way that I want the voice of disabled people to be central in everything I do so for me it's very important to work with DPOs and others and access to work is one good example of that at an employer level we find it's very positive to be able to promote access to work to employers as part of the disability confidence scheme and by way of example there's 1,400 members of that in Scotland so those are some of the ways in which we continue to raise awareness Margarita, would you like to add anything to that as to the very front end thank you minister I think that the other important thing in the early 2020 the access to work stakeholder forum was established in Scotland and this is led and chaired by disabled people's organisations with DWP and Scottish Government officials working collaboratively to understand the existing experience and explore opportunities for improvement and collaborate on policy developments the group meets frequently and continues to contribute and provide insight in relation to the access to work scheme it's consistent with our wider approach to stakeholder engagement where similar forums in England and Wales operate and all three chairs work together to ensure experiences and improvements including views are shared and we have a collective approach to access to work administration and policy development and every devolution of the access to work scheme could create an inconsistency there so we're really keen to keep the collaboration with job centres to make sure that we get that collaboration and understanding of ideas that work and I've seen first hand in terms of employees in our own business and DWP when we've used access to work grants to make sure they have the ability to get to work today at work and have the right adjustments to make sure that they have a pleasurable experience in our employment so hopefully that works thank you for that, it's really helpful the question is in this area is in regard to the differential in regard to number of disabled people in employment in Scotland compared to England so there's a higher number of people unemployed with disabled in Scotland than there are in England and the number is growing larger I just wonder on the question why you think that might be the case and what do you think we can do particularly here in Scotland as we come out of this two year pandemic where disabled people might be left behind how can we get more disabled people into safe employment and also employment that gives them an opportunity to be promoted and to be fulfilled in their work there's a huge amount to do under this heading Mr Balfour it's a really important question and you are correct of course on the figures across the UK the disabled employment rate is 53% regrettably in Scotland at 49% we are very interested in actually two measures here and in fact these are both manifesto commitments for us we're interested in helping greater numbers of disabled people into employment and we set a goal in 2017 that actually over 10 years we wanted to help a million people more into employment and we're seeing that happening and there'll be plenty more to do of course beyond that but also the other type of measure that we're really interested in is the disability employment gap and again just to cite the figures at the UK level that gap in other words the gap in employment rates between disabled and non-disabled people is 28% and unfortunately it's the case that in Scotland it's 33% so I'm looking at ways of doing all about efforts to bear on helping disabled people into work and as I said earlier to not just be in work but to start and stay and succeed in work actually retention is critical if you think about what would need to be the case for that gap to close retention of course is absolutely critical so helping people to stay in the workplace if they should for example become in worse health while they're in work we want to support that and help them stay there's a number of tools that we're using to try to go about this we've already mentioned access to work and in the course of that I've mentioned the disability confidence scheme which are ways of engaging with employers to encourage them to do their part Bless you Margarita as Margarita has already mentioned herself in job centres we have disability employment advisers who are there to really support this effort, support claimants directly but of course critically support colleagues, the officials in job centres to be able to put the right expertise towards supporting disabled people and we also have a large range of programmes of particular provision which is there to support people with disability or ill health and I'm very excited actually about the way that some of those are going to move forward in the years to come for example we want to make sure that there will be increased time with the work coaches in the job centres and the right support through those programmes so that we can continue to encourage disabled people to as I say start and stay and succeed in work Thank you I'm actually going to pass over to my colleague Marie McNair who is joining us remotely who does have a question now on this theme over to Marie Good morning minister this morning to the committee and a lot of the points that I wanted to make have been covered but I've got one on PIP just really will there be any changes from your proposals we'll see changes to the PIP criteria prior to 2025 you will be aware that this is the target date for the completion of transfer from PIP to adult disability payment you're looking really for assurances that there will be nothing that will put at risk the safe and secure transfer Over to yourself minister Thank you for that question Oh sorry can you hear me is there an issue on the line No I can hear you Thank you very much for that question and as you say and as I've already mentioned this morning the aim here absolutely is to ensure the safe and secure transfer of benefits because of course behind that is people's lives we are talking about real people who need real support so as I've already covered we intend to bring forward proposals in a white paper in later this year mid 2022 as I noted in my letter to the committee to Ms Witton in February and I appreciate that at the same time as I've already said there is an independent review that the Scottish Government is looking to take forward so these two are perhaps in their way parallel strands the key for me then will be to make sure that we are able to keep both of our schemes under review as the landscape evolves and to do that in a way that has claimants firmly in mind Thank you Thank you very much I'll now move on to a question from Pam Duncan-Glancy on theme 2 Thank you Does the minister believe that changing the eligibility criteria for the enhanced rate of mobility would impact on passported benefits? Thank you very much for that question May I My colleague Andrew wanted to say something to the previous question May I let him do that and then come to your question if that would be okay? Absolutely I wanted to say about the 2025 day it's all just to this year because that's the day on which ADP is available for airscoll and anyone who has a new claim or who comes up for a reassessment for PIP won't be doing it in PIP but we'll be doing it in ADP so changes we might make in England and Wales to PIP or whatever they may or may not be would kind of not be relevant directly relevant to Scotland because ADP will be the benefit that operates there Thank you very much for adding that Andrew and I guess that follows on to the question that Pam actually just asked in terms of passporting benefits Pam I could start and then the minister can follow it on a technical level just to explain passporting which is a phrase I dislike intensely I prefer to say access to premiums because actually what we need to do as DWP is find the right people who need the additional amount whether they're disabled people or carers in different benefits a universal credit for example whether somebody has a carer it's done within universal credit it's not done by passporting from carers allowance so using another benefit as a passport isn't the only way to find the people who need extra money in the reserve benefits there are potentially other ways of doing it but clearly for as long as somebody has done an assessment which is the assessment that we need whether that's in DWP or the Scottish Government there will be not be a very good customer experience for us to ask somebody to go through a second assessment just to find out whether they can get an additional amount in universal credit alongside what they're getting from the Scottish Government however the whole point of devolving the disability benefits is precisely that the Scottish Government can take a different path from the UK Government from a DWP point of view we provide reserved benefits to everybody but we will need to find the people who get the premiums and if we can't use a Scottish Government benefit to do it because it's veiled away from where the English and Welsh benefit is then we will find me to find another way of doing it but we have to provide whatever we provide to people in England and Wales we have to provide it to people in Scotland as well and we have to find a way of achieving that Did that answer your question or do you have a... Thank you that was really helpful I'd be keen to just hear if the minister has a view and also whether that is the case if the answer that's just been given which is helpful is true for carers allowance as well and also at any point have you threatened to label adult disability payment not comparable to PIP based on proposed changes to eligibility criteria that the Scottish Government may wish to take On carers allowance perhaps we might be able to come to that in a sort of a separate thread if you like because there's probably quite a lot to say around that and to bring together there but sticking with the point on PIP and ADP as Andrew has set out clearly the construction of ADP and thresholds or qualification within that is absolutely a matter for the Scottish Government I entirely agree with how he's set out the position in terms of any changes that may be the responsibility of the UK Government in terms of PIP and how these two things relate at a practical point we continue to work very closely to understand each other's changes but I do want to echo and be very clear about the distinction here which is that decisions to do with the design of ADP are for the Scottish Government and as Andrew has explained access to premier through that is something that we have been able to take decisions on for the immediate Thank you I'll now hand over to my colleague Marie McNair again who is on Blue Danes remote Thank you Kierina and again a number of the points is going to be covered I would say that Duncan Glancy has asked about the 20 meter rule can you comment on the rationale for introducing it in the first place Yes, I'd be happy to although I would note that that is a historical point and not one that is to do with the conjunction between reserved and developed benefits which I think is the point of this session but the need in a benefit to support people with disability is to be able to understand in a sensitive way how their needs may be impacted by their condition Of course in the case of PIP we are primarily trying to understand what functional effect there is on a person's life rather than provide support by the label of condition but that's the reason why there is a mobility rule at all and we have sought to be able to set it at what we think is an appropriate level so that we're getting the support to the people who need it the most Thank you on record saying that the Westminster Government introduced the rule to cut money from disability benefits do you dispute that? Yes, I do What we're trying to do in PIP of course and have always done is to be able to get support with others Thank you very much I'll now move on to Jeremy Balfour who's in the room and after that Marodda Coo's remote Thank you I wonder if I can go back to the questions again that we got from the officials in regard to how we could assess if we can just keep calling it passport benefits at the moment, just to understand what we mean by that Firstly, have there been discussions between the UK Government and the Scottish Government about how we could access these passport benefits in another way if we weren't using PIP as the criteria? Have those discussions started at a ministerial or official level? I wonder if you could maybe explain a wee bit more about how that could happen so if we had a divergence in regard to benefits here in Scotland compared to those in England and Wales are there mechanisms that we could use to still allow people to get for example, the Christmas 10 pound bonus if you get PIP at the moment and it's obviously linked to a particular is it possible to work on that or is that going to be almost too complicated to do? I think the broad answer really here Mr Balfour is as I set out in my letter to the committee which is the way that we've answered already to the questions this morning so in the immediate term we have decided that the receipt of the equivalent elements of ADP and CDP will be the means of identifying these additional needs and we think that that is a reasonable thing to do and therefore have decided that that is our best option but as I said in the letter the way of identifying those needs certainly can and will be kept under review as the benefit landscapes continue to evolve and we've already pointed of course to our green paper into the independent review which are perhaps vehicles for how each Government is able to look at these things ahead. I'm very happy perhaps to bring in Andrew if he wants to add about any further aspects of these discussions that are official in a friend of freedom. If I might so I'd like to make two comments. When is the Christmas bonus? Mr Balfour you're quite right to identify the Christmas bonus. That is a unique situation where we in the UK Government are giving some money to somebody who's been assessed as if they're getting a benefit by the Scottish Government and he's a direct link and there is no other way of doing it because the entitlement of the Christmas bonus derives from the entitlement of the other benefits and the way we will deal with that if we need to use the spillover effect where if there's a cost to the UK taxpayer due to decisions made by the Scottish ministers then we will recruit that cost from the Scottish Government so that one is a particular very specific issue. On your other point about discussions with officials at the moment we think it's premature there's a lot of work to be done simply to replace PIP with ADP, which is to give funds for other funds and so on. Our ministers are content for the time being that CDP and ADP are sufficiently they meet the terms under which we would give people an increased intentional credit for example. There is no need at the moment to think through whether those benefits will be significantly away because they haven't yet and in due course we would need to do that and I mean I'm looking, I'm responsible for pension credit for example. I am looking very carefully at my universal credit calling still with carers in the context of universal credit by not using carers allowance and getting the work coach to have a discussion with the carer to see what their caring responsibilities are how could we do that on the side of things. But if I might say whether I wish to be rude that is the matter for the UK Government I mean we would keep the Scottish Government colleagues informed but the operation of the policy on the reserve benefit system is for UK Government ministers. Thank you Jeremy, I'll now pass over to my colleague Emma Roddick who joins us remotely. Thank you, convener. I'm told minister it's good to meet you virtually and thank you for your time this morning. My question is very much along the same lines as my colleague Pam Duncan-Glade just like a little bit more clarity on policy change you've said that you agree with the minister that no further changes are possible to ADP at this time but that it's for the Scottish Hydria in future. Do you appreciate there has been devolution of some social security powers there are limits to those powers and we're not entirely clear yet on where those limits are in terms of what can be done without the eligibility of claimants of devolved benefits to continue to receive their reserve benefits and is it your intention to reconcile that and facilitate the Scottish Government's policy wishes on devolved benefits? Over to you self minister, I hope that you managed to get that. Yes, thank you I did a lot although unfortunately Emma's quality wasn't ideal but thank you very much for your question. I mean I hope we are being very clear this morning we do not believe that there is such a risk we think that this is a perhaps a misunderstanding or dare I say a red herring. We are really clear that the construction of the Scottish Government's benefit is a matter for them and I hope I've also been able to be clear about the ways in which we A. Understand that both our landscape and the Scottish Government's landscape may well evolve through our but B. Nonetheless, we want to continue to work together to ensure that we have the safe and secure transfer of benefits in order to get support to the people who need it the most. I think Andrew wanted to add a point which I'll let him do and then I hope that that really will answer your question. I just want to take a hypothetical example this is not what the Scottish Government proposes but in theory the Scottish Government could replace PIP with something completely different which would use the money to do something else to make infrastructure improvements it's not going to, it's going to use it to pay benefit. If the Scottish Government decided to do that we would still be left in DWP needing to find people in Scotland who could get a premium in the reserve benefits because of their disability even if there were no benefit in Scotland we would still have to find a way of doing that. Thank you Emma I know that you have a supplementary question to come back with. I've certainly seen some difficulties around the hybrid nature of social security at this point in a Scottish context is the DWP also struggling with the hybrid nature including do you see a need to increase the wall powers in future to remedy some of the issues that we've already covered this morning? Thank you for that question. I don't see any for there to be difficulties because as we've been saying this morning we do have really comprehensive ways of working together actually and I do think that working together is how we're going to be able to get the best result for people. I think we will be able to help people to be as I've said before safer and stronger and more prosperous if we work together sensibly but on the subject of developing further powers I think there is a legitimate question to ask you which is about first of all being able to really grip the powers that have been developed and considering regrettably that we're in a position where for example we're looking at the end of the agency agreements and yet still there are such large amounts of things to do and for the Scottish Government to be ready to do so I would certainly hope that actually there'd be a focus on making most use of the powers that have already been devolved and being ready to really deliver for citizens rather than necessarily looking for more powers. Thank you very much for that minister we'll now move on to questions in the next theme which is round about case transfer I know that Jeremy Balfour's had his question answered so we'll move on to questions from Pam Duncan-Glancy in the room and then Miles Briggs. Thank you, convener Have the Scottish Government raised with the Department of Work and Pensions changing the 20 metre rule and the eligibility criteria of the mobility component as a priority? I'm terribly sorry can I ask you to repeat the question I didn't quite hear you? Of course, apologies Have the Scottish Government raised with you changing the 20 metre rule and the eligibility criteria of ADP of the mobility component as a priority? If they'd like to change it in the ADP that's entirely for them As to whether that's come up in conversation in terms of it being their responsibility to take such a decision I don't believe that's been made with me but I'll ask Andrew whether that's been made at an official level No, frankly I wouldn't expect them to because it's a matter of decision with the Scottish Government Thank you both I have one follow-up question Have you at any point insisted on adult disability payment eligibility criteria and descriptors remaining unchanged from the ones used in PIP? No Thank you very much We will now move on to questions from Miles Briggs Thank you convener I think that theme 2 we've ventured into a lot of theme 3 as well but I wanted to ask a question with regards to scale of resource which DWP have had to commit to the transfer process as well and whether or not you could outline what that's looked like We know the additional and higher costs of delivering the social security system through Social Security Scotland we hope that will come in line with the same projections DWP currently have but I just wondered what that resource looked like Thank you very much indeed Mr Briggs I think that these are really essential questions and ones that we all want to see well delivered again for the reasons that I've been saying through the morning because we want to see safe and secure transfer of benefits and delivery for people who need it the most I think that just to illustrate the point as I understand it Social Security Scotland's staff requirements have for example doubled from the original estimated requirement from 1900 up to 3500 so it is really important to have accurate estimates of the resource that will be required and certainly that will be true both in terms of staffing and of course the cost required indeed again the cost estimates could be argued to be considerably larger than what the Scottish Government might have first made for our part again what we want to do here is to ensure that we have a sensible supporting dialogue and all structures necessary to make a success of this Let me turn to Andrew who might be able to explain what the resource commitment is in a programme level in terms of us working together with the Scottish Government to execute this devolution I'd like to add two points really one is about the long term in steady state there will be no pick in Scotland there will be no the number of deed or deed benefits that won't exist therefore there will be a saving to DWP because we won't be having to administer those benefits but a cost to Social Security Scotland that's in steady state but there are of course start-up costs and there are devolution programmes or change professionals in both DWP and the Scottish Government who will not be there forever they will be there for as long as it's necessary to move to the two parallel systems it will be difficult to find the exact figure because a lot of people in DWP are working on Scottish devolution and there are obviously some people who have dedicated to Scottish devolution but I can't really put a figure on it for that reason for example everybody in DWP who is responsible for administering TLA for children at some point has been involved in the devolution of Social Security to Scotland and that's quite a lot of people the other point that I was going to make is kind of it it's a sort of constitutional point in the wake of the independence referendum that there would be the establishment of an autonomous social security system in Scotland that comes with a cost it is clearly not as efficient to have two social security systems as to have one but there are reasons why that offer was made to the people of Scotland that this would be set up so it is less efficient to have two systems Thank you for that and I think none of us either ourselves in the UK Government or here in the Scottish Parliament want to see administration costs being the focus it's getting money to the front line and to people who really need it so I just wanted to finally ask is the exercise which we're seeing presenting unprecedented complexity for the DWP or is it similar in scale to previous benefit changes and where is the potential increasing costs that the Scottish Government are now saying will be needed to administer the system what's within the system which is making this so complicated compared to other benefit changes which we've seen under DWP I'm going to let Andrew answer that question in the first instance because he has a fantastic organisational history in memory here I would say that the nearest analogy would be early task credits so the transfer 50,000 of things like child premiums and income support to HMRC which had a different ministerial fee different data structures a different way of looking at the world even because it's an organisation that generally takes money from people rather than giving money to people so we did a lot of work around tax credits and the reverse is true in bringing tax credits into universal credit I think it's the fact that there are two different systems complexity and different procurement cycles we're in different sectors of technology DWP's IT is extremely advanced in the case of universal credit we're rather creaking frankly in the case of some other benefits whereas Social Security Scotland has the opportunity to start from the most modern technology so I think that's what actually complexity I think that there is a question that has been asked previously which is part of the problem to do with ideological differences and frankly at an official level known the problem is we have different IT systems different procurement cycles and those sorts of things If I may just add one point to that or really just to emphasise a point from that I think that the point is fair that Andrew makes that two systems is inevitably less efficient than one in the sense that we both want to be able to support the same people in many cases the same needs and the same shared concerns In my view when we do work collaboratively to tackle big problems whether they be administrative or whether they be the kind of shops we've seen in recent years we are better able to draw on skills if we do that together and if we do that at scale Thank you very much for that Miles I'm actually going to go back to my colleague Emma Roddick who unfortunately I cut off I didn't realise she had another question because she froze on the screen so Emma back to herself and hopefully your connections When you go No I think she's frozen again Thank you for your patience with my IT I just wanted to come back in on two points and yours First on the issue of that we have while I appreciate that the delivery of devolved social security has taken isn't the fact of the matter that had to move emphasis and resources because of the pandemic simply I know that in a previous response and the stones they did with would result in charge for the different intention is ability benefit should the DWP changing ensure that this benefits rather than punishing the Scottish Government for doing so I'm terribly sorry we couldn't hear that clearly enough to be able to answer it No I completely understand that and it's maybe something that we would need to follow up in writing with yourself because I think as in the room got some of it and then it really sped up at the end and we couldn't quite catch what Emma was saying unfortunately there I'm going to have to move on to the next theme and I've got questions from Natalie Dawn who also joins us remotely Natalie Thank you convener and good morning minister have you here with us this morning in relation to the Scottish child payment can you advise how the DWP are progressing delivery on the agreed transfer of data from the UK Government to the Scottish Government and can you confirm if this is on track Thank you very much indeed Ms Dawn we are indeed working closely together I believe it is on track this is something where Mr McPherson and I have had very close discussions recently and officials are working extremely tightly to be able to get the data that is needed in the way that is needed and to support the transfer very happy for Andrew to take more technical questions than that but I hope I can give you that assurance in answer to your first question I would only supplement that by saying we've had extensive discussions with the Scottish Government at its technical level and some of it relates to what I was saying earlier about incompatible IT systems particularly it is not just universal credit that gives rise to the Scottish child payment, it's other benefits as well which do not have the same data structures it's a very technical issue it's not that the DWP doesn't want to provide it's clearly we do want to provide this information to the Scottish Government it's a question of I put it crassly, I'm a policy person on our technician but if I were to put it crassly does DWP change its systems to fit with what the Scottish Government system has or does the Scottish Government change its system to fit with the data in the format in which DWP holds it that shouldn't be something that needs to go into the public domain that should be behind the scenes it unsettles people it's unfortunate that we get into discussions about those technical issues which unsettle people unnecessarily because we are definitely going to be providing them with the information to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Government requires Thank you that's good to know that we're on track obviously the Scottish child payment is aimed at tackling poverty head on it's a very ambitious programme can I ask if the minister recognises the hybrid nature of devolved benefits and accepts that if Scotland is to have low income benefits that are going to help to tackle poverty in this way and help people with the cost of living crisis that we're seeing just now then the Scottish Government needs that data availability which is obviously reserved as you've just touched upon and that needs to be from the UK Government and if this is genuinely a joint programme of work again as you've just touched on the Scottish Government cannot be thwarted in our aims to use these powers to help people that are reliant on the data from the UK Government so I would ask the minister what you would suggest as the way forward to ensure that joint co-operation well I think we have the methods already in hand of joint co-operation and what I can add to my assurances is that actually we I and Ben Macpherson actually are explicitly agreed that our joint efforts and our commitment to resolve this on both sides have already secured the agreed approach to the provision of data which supports the proposed delivery timeline of the Scottish Government and indeed Ben has thanked me for that in letters and the DWP's contribution so far on continued commitment to the delivery of the extended Scottish child payment I wouldn't say that is the action of a pair of ministers who are trying to thwart each other in any way Thank you Thank you very much Thank you very much I'm going to move on to Pam Duncan-Glancy for her questions on this theme Thank you, convener The role out of the Scottish child payment to over sixes has taken some time What pressure has the Scottish Government put on the Department of Work and Pensions to move faster to do this, if at all and what assurances have the Scottish Government sought that the DWP's strategic solution will be operational by the time the role out Thank you, Ms Duncan-Glancy I mean, there's a number of points that we could provide in answer to that and Andrew may want to confirm on the extent of discussions but I think the key point is those discussions have been lengthy we're all aware of the pressing timetable and we have reached agreement on how to do it I think the committee will be aware of the history if you like in the sense that there was simply a different type of data that related to the under sixes compared to the over sixes and that has been the thing that we needed to resolve but we've done so and I think that's really important because it allows us then to get on and do it which for me is the absolute priority I mean, I wouldn't describe any of those things as pressure being put by one Government on another, I would just describe this as us having had to roll our sleeves up and work out how to do it Andrew, would you like to add anything to that? Yes, I think that the SCB and SCB2 issue is to make sure that the two Governments are talking to each other in advance and not making assumptions and I think we're getting better at that so we were already providing data to the Scottish Government to have noticed the best start grant for children under the age of six and kindly look best at them as well and I think there may have been a misunderstanding that that data was available in exactly the same format for children over the age of six and it's really simple lifting up the phone and asking if not being laid available in that format and do that before making announcements. Yes, thank you, that's really helpful. At what point did the Scottish Government ask that particular question? I'm afraid the point is that they didn't necessarily do so and we would very much prefer that to be a thing that happened in the future if we ever were to find ourselves in a similar position. As Andrew says, the really key point here is that we need to be able to have these discussions first before promises are made. Around this committee table we are all politicians, I'm sure we all love to make promises, but we have to do that in a responsible way that is backed up by a sensible knowledge of what can technically be achieved and by when. Thank you. Thank you, Pam. We're going to actually bring Emma in who has questions on this theme as well. Broadcasting is quite hopeful that we've got a better connection. Emma, let's try again, thanks. Sorry, you kind of broke up on my end there so I was just making sure. I noted in a previous response that Andrew advised further costs associated with changing eligibility due to more disabled people being eligible would result in the Scottish Government being charged for the difference. I wanted to ask if your intention is as you say to get disability benefits to all who need it, should the DWP not be leading on changing eligibility to make sure that this happens with reserved benefits rather than punishing the Scottish Government for doing so? Thank you very much for being able to put your question technically more clearly because now we've got you loud and clear. I just reject this characterisation. I'm really sorry. I just don't think it's at all appropriate to be talking in terms of one Government punishing another when actually we need to be able to be working together to help people. I really think we can perhaps do better than that. I mean, I'll give Andrew an opportunity if he'd like to refine his, come back to what he said earlier in order to answer your fresh question. But I think the point is we need to think sensibly and collaboratively about the population that we're seeking to support and the nature of what we each together understand to be disability or ill health and be able to ensure that the support is there. The idea that people may unfortunately suffer a particular change in their health in the future or that may have functional impairments from a disability is not something that should be taken as an excuse for a bum fight. It's something that we need to be able to support people with and we will. Thank you. The only thing I would add is I think there is also an issue here because we are all concerned primarily with the customer experience. I was making a comment which is a more technical comment about how you account behind scenes for who is going to make the payment. So the payment needs to be made and also in the case of the Christmas bonus many people will receive it anyway because they are in receipt of multiple benefits each of which would give their eyes to a Christmas bonus. It's if we could isolate the point where the UK Government has forecast a certain amount of expenditure based on these other criteria on when people get a Christmas bonus and a few people in Scotland get an extra Christmas bonus which was not budgeted for, that's going to need to be paid for in some way. I understand that the committee may want to put some questions about the fiscal framework or broader budgetary points at the end of the session but the point is that the Scottish Government will receive the biggest funding settlement since devolution and that's from the spending of you in autumn of last year indeed over the next three years a bit of old administrations are all receiving at least 20 per cent more per person than the equivalent UK Government spending so those are the fundamentals of actually how budgeting works as obviously every committee member will know the block grant, Barnett consequentials how we make the sums add up behind the scenes in order to get the support to where it is needed. Thank you Emma did you have a question a further question no I think I'll leave it there thank you convener we will now move on to the last theme which is roundabout the fiscal framework and my colleague Jeremy Balfour has a question just two very quick questions minister I think we're more just kind of to get some kind of information of where we are I know back in October 21 both Governments asked for an independent report on the fiscal framework I just wondered could you update us where we are on that and when are we likely to see any of the workings from this independent review coming into a public domain that would ideally be a question that you might be able to put to the Treasury so in terms of the UK Government it's that department that would lead on that so I'm afraid I'm not able to give you that detail that you're asking for today okay thank you we can maybe tip it up in a letter the answer may be the same in regard to my final question has any thought been given or had the independent review been asked to look at if there is divergence within social security system how that would be dealt with within any fiscal framework going forward again that may be a question for the Treasury Lauren for you yes it's certainly a question that I can recognise although as I say the Treasury is conducting the review and you may want to get further information from them I mean at a general level the principles around social security are of course already addressed in the current framework and I would say that despite all we've discussed this morning policy divergences haven't actually materialised significantly at this stage in terms of social security I think it would be difficult and of course hypothetical to suggest to argue what might need to change in the existing framework so the really practical answer is that it's too early to tell and I think my expectation would be therefore that this would not be a core part of the fiscal framework review being done at present thank you minister for that answer and thank you for your time it's much appreciated thank you very much I would just like to say my own thanks to yourself and your officials for coming by this morning I think you've given the committee a lot to think about and I think the key thing going forward is going to be the collegiate working between both sets of governments and the twin tracks of the independent review and obviously your own looking at the changes that maybe are going to be made to your own disability benefits thank you very much and hopefully we'll have further conversations in the future well may I thank you Ms Whitson for having us on behalf of my officials and I it was good to hear your questions and we look forward to working closely with you in the future thank you very much I am now going to suspend briefly and give members a moment for a comfort break we'll bring ourselves back in about 10 minutes at the most we're a wee bit ahead of schedule everybody welcome back to this morning's meeting we're now at agenda item number 3 which is subordinate legislation we're going to consider four negative SSIs as outlined on the agenda the negative instruments under consideration are disability assistance for working age people consequential and miscellaneous amendment and transitional provision Scotland regulations 2022 and carers allowance uprating miscellaneous regulations 2022 social security industrial injuries prescribed diseases amendment Scotland regulations 2022 and council tax reduction Scotland amendment regulations 2022 members are invited to consider all four of these instruments together background information is outlined in papers 3 to 6 do members have any comments they would like to raise in relation to these instruments and if you do have comments it would be helpful if you could highlight which instrument they relate to Pam Duncan-Glancy thank you first on SSI on council tax reduction it would be helpful to know whether the Government has any plans to gather data on the numbers of people who access council tax reduction and who they are and also do we know how many people, if any, have missed out of the error that is noted in the papers and will their payment be given back will that be backdated so I don't know if that's something that the committee may wish to write to the Government about or I still intend to vote for the SSI but I just thought it would be worth asking those questions do any members have any comments on that I'm content for us to write to seek clarity on those points raised are we agreed online are we agreed with that as well that's great Pam did you have a further comment unsurprisingly the other one is on the SSI on the upgrading to carers allowance and it's just to say that whilst any increase is welcome I'm still disappointed that it is of course only £4 and that we're not able to look or that the Government haven't looked at any sooner than they have so I just wanted to put that on record that £4 is welcome because it's an increase but it is absolutely nowhere near enough and I hope that the Scottish Government move as quickly as possible to addressing the rate of carers allowance and eligibility for it but I will of course vote for the SSI thank you very much your comments are now on record and will be noted within the minute of the meeting therefore I ask that's brilliant thank you very much and that does conclude the public part of this morning's meeting at next week's meeting will be considering the medium term financial strategy and framework for resource spending review as well as considering affirmative support in it legislation we're now going to move into private session to consider our remaining agenda items members who are joining us online should leave this meeting now and join us with the teams link in your calendar thank you very much everybody