 The Coalition of Northern Groups CNG has said that with the arrest of Nnamdi Kanu and Sunday Igbohu, the government should go beyond prosecution to digging up and exposing their sponsors and the agenda behind them. The Pan-European Social Political Organization has responded to the arrest of Igbohu saying that though they are surprised it was still studying the situation of events before making a formal statement, Kanu was arrested in Kenya while Igbohu was reportedly arrested in the Benin Republic. Well, while allegedly trying to flee to Germany, this is the report that we've gotten so far. But to discuss this and of course the security implications, we have Dennis Amakri, a former assistant director with the Department of State Security, D.S.S., and we have Iniba Gifiong, who is a legal practitioner. Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you. Great. Thank you. I'm going to start with you, Mr. Amakri, because this is obviously a security situation. The last time I spoke about this issue of Nnamdi Kanu and then of course the D.S.S. going to the House of Sunday Igbohu, the security expert that we had on had said that the way that government was handling this situation was giving these non-state actors more air time, more visibility than they should have, you know, on a normal day. But I want to hear from you what you think, you know, the implications, the security implications for these arrests and the way that it is being handled, you know, might be on the Nigerian state. Yes. Thank you for having me. Yes, I agree. I agree that we are giving a lot of air time to non-state actors, especially the terrorists and bandits, you know, who have been harassing the country for so long. But about Nnamdi Kanu and Igbohu, that's a different case altogether. Nnamdi Kanu's situation, I think, is something bordering on treason. And well, I think the courts have to decide on it. He skipped bail, he ran away, and then he was picked up and brought. So I think for a country that operates under the rule of law, he should have his time in court to defend himself. His lawyers will be there to defend him. On Igbohu's case, I think people are becoming too emotional about it because the narrative right now is that he's a Euroban nationalist fighter. But the reason that the DSS gave was that they hadn't told about a cashier of arms in his house. And then, of course, they went there and they found the arms, and now he is to appear in court to defend why he is carrying arms. You know, like they say, if you are a diplomat, and then, of course, you have immunity, but if you are found with gun, you stop being a diplomat and you now become a soldier. So if he's saying that the arms don't belong to him, like some people have said, then let them appear in court. And then, of course, talk about it. That's what the cases of the lawyers are. The lawyers will be there to defend them or to prosecute him. But the idea of running away also spoils his case because it's now showing just like Kanu. You know, you don't run away. But can I come in there because I was waiting for you to land. Namdi Kanu did make a case saying that the reason why, and I'm not his counsel, but he did say that the reason why he ran was because he was afraid for his life. And we can see a clear case of almost a similar case of what happened to Namdi Kanu where his house, his family home was sacked, gunshots, and people were allegedly hurt. Same thing for Sunday Moho. In the middle of the night, his house is ransacked. Someone is shot dead, blood everywhere. And the community seems to be threatened. Maybe the modus operandi of the Secret Service or the DSS is the reason why these people are running for their lives. Because what is wrong with the Department of State Security inviting this man as they've been inviting other politicians. And for the case of Namdi Kanu, I'm just also saying maybe that's the reason why these people keep running for their lives because they feel very threatened. I mean, especially for a person who's never really killed somebody but has been agitating for an independent state. You have to understand the underground water that runs in this particular cases. You know, what people see on the surface is exactly not what is going on. Namdi Kanu has been directing people in Nigeria to do certain things, bomb down police stations. He has asked them to do certain things. He has even put bounty on the head of a of a serving of a serving governor, okay? So when you when you see people like that, non-state actors that are violent, it's different from non-state actors that just how many people have gone to let put it, let put it this way. How many people have gone to read Ghanifah and his house with guns? Because there are no guns there. And when they go there, he's trying to follow them. He goes to court and he has his day in court and they release him and he goes away. You know, in the case of Igbo, there was gone. How can we tell that there were guns there? And again, permit me, and I'm not in any way speaking for Igboho, but I'm saying that there have been cases where we have as normal citizens, seen and heard police officers tell us that they will shoot you and give you the gun and say that you are the one who carried the gun. So why would they have it like that? No, no, no, I'm just saying I'm just saying again, I'm just saying I'm just saying if Igboho is saying that those guns do not belong to him. And let him go to court, let him go to court and prove it. OK, let him go to court. There is no problem with that. If somebody allegations, there are still allegations. Exactly. If he goes to court, you will do that. But there was a gunfight where even a DSS officer was shot in the arm. OK, so we are not going to say what happened. They shot themselves or what? Let everybody go to court. We believe in the rule of law and it's in Nigeria. I think even the lawyers will tell you they want him to have his day in court. In court. That's why the lawyers exist. So let him go to court and then either defend or prosecute. And talking about lawyers, let's take a legal aspect or a legal view of this, you know, story. We have seen the Nnamdi Kano situation happen. And now we're having the Sunday Buhu situation. Where do you where do you think that, you know, the government is coming from and and does Nnamdi Kano one way or the other have any because, again, I remember that he had two shorties who had to shorty for him when he was given that bail before he jumped and disappeared from the country. And for Sunday Buhu, just as Mr. Maki has said, they all should deserve their day in court. But again, I'm going to ask the first question that I asked Mr. Maki, why are we giving so much attention to these non-state actors as opposed to the people who are really terrorizing the country? The reason why, you know, attention is being paid to Sunday Buhu and Nnamdi Kano by the Buhari regime is because those are the persons in the whose activities the president or the government is emotionally invested in. By that, I mean those are the persons that are of interest, persons of interest to the security agencies and the president. The Boko Haram that is killing people, the terrorists in the north that are being called bandics. The S-men that are rampaging, murdering, raping people across the country. They are not of interest to the SSS. And I have a problem with the media keep saying DSS. Because, you know, there is no agency known to law at DSS. That is part of the problem that we have. The agency that is known to law is state security service that you can abbreviate as SSS. I don't know where this name DSS came from. It is part of the community that we have to address. If an agency is established by law, that is the National Security Agency's Act with the names state security service, who should stick to that name? Because what we keep saying DSS, you see that name has now become a reputation of impunity. And I listen to Metamarche saying they should have their day in court. Do DSSs believe in the judiciary? Do they believe in the rule of law? The people who were arrested in Iboho's house had been detained beyond 24 hours. Which court have they been arraigning? The people that were arrested at Dunami's church for merely wearing Buwari must-go t-shirt by the same agency. For almost over two weeks now, have they been taken to court? Weshawira was arrested and detained and the court gave another for his release. Is it not the same agency that defied the court and refused to release him in flagrant disobedience to the court? Is it not the same agency that invaded the federal court in Abuja? Is it not the same agency that invaded our National Assembly? Is it not the same agency that is on rampage? Arresting, violating the rights of citizens? So let him stop taunting us. Let him stop taunting us to say they should have their day in court. This pretend that the DSS believe in the judiciary process has to stop and let us get this clearly. Whatever Iboho, whatever Nandikano are fighting for, it is within the contemplation of the right to self-determination, which is even recognized on Nandirando. Under article 20 of the African Charter of Human and People's Rights, Ratification and Enforcement Act, there is nothing that amounts to terrorism in saying you don't want to be a Nigeria anymore. But then Mr. Macri made a case. Mr. Macri made a case saying that look, Nandikano, as he said and I'm quoting him, had put a bounty on the governor's head. He has mandated people to burn down a police station. I haven't seen that press release by Nandikano, by the way. But of course he's saying that they know more, they have more information than we do because they're the Department of State Security Service and they have more information than we would probably have. And so he's saying that maybe these people are inciting violence and causing some form of obstruction in the country. And that's why, in your words, they are persons of interest to the government and the State Security Service. Look, what I'm saying is that let us stop pretending that this is an effort by the government to enforce the law or to uphold the rule of law. This is just the regime that is opposed to anybody that expresses an opinion that they are not comfortable with. It has nothing to do with whatever Nandikano was saying. When the same government pretended that they wanted to try him and they filed a charges before Justice Miyako, why did the military invade his house? Why did they assault his father? Why did they kill his supporters even when the charge was paid? If he had violated his belt condition, they'd go back to the court. So let us stop this hypocrisy that there is a government that is interested in enforcing the law. This has nothing to do with the enforcement of the law. This is just about a regime that is determined to quell all form of dissent. That is what it is about. And they keep saying Nandikano has done this, Iboho has done this. Do they genuinely believe in the judicial process? I'm just telling you now that even Iboho supporters who are arrested, they have been kept for four many days now. The conditions and the conditions cannot be detained beyond 24 hours. Why are they still in custody? Have they been given access to legal representation? So you cannot be pretending that you want to enforce the law and you do not comply with the constitution. And you are killing people. And they came out to say we only kill two people. Those officers that killed two people, two Iboho supporters that they have admitted to, have they been tried? Have they been dismissed? Have they been arranged for murder? He said that there was an exchange of gunfire. So those instances of each other were there. Did they have some immunity from bullets? That none of them was killed? I refuse to believe them. Let them produce the CCTV. Because Iboho has said there was CCTV in his house. They should produce it for the endurance to see. For us to believe. Why do they have to invade the house in the day or the night? Why do they have to shoot guns into his vehicles and destroy properties in his house? Is that a part of legitimate and democratic civilized world of law enforcement? I think we should let Sir Macri answer this question. Mr. Macri, would you care to respond? Yes, I think my Leonard friend there is being emotional about the whole thing. Because he's saying that the government does not believe in the rule of law. Why is it that when Cano was brought back, he was taken to court? If they don't believe in the rule of law, in fact, they would have taken care of him overseas or have him bringing here and locking him away. What do you mean by taking care of him overseas? He was taken to court. Yes, he was taken to court. And of course, he has his day in court, which has been rescheduled. But you see, one thing about these things is that, yes, there is nothing wrong with people agitating for self-determination, you know? And that is a normal thing that people do. And it takes years and years. Sometimes we talk about people who want a republic of Ireland and they belong to it. And so many years are gone by. But when you start carrying arms or start, you know, just like in Israel, where they started shooting missiles into Israel, Israel is not going to fold his hands and say, oh, we are under the rule of law. We believe in the human rights. Mr. Macri, I have seen, again, I am not a spokesperson for either of these gentlemen, but I have seen rallies that have been organized by Igboho, and I did not see guns. Yes, you have seen rallies. And I haven't seen guns. And at those rallies, they are advocating for the Euroband nation. Yes. And when you say they start carrying guns. The rallies were not dispatched. Yes. I even attended one. When you say they start carrying guns. The rallies were not dispatched. They were not dispatched. They carried out their rallies and then people were singing and nobody dispatched them. But then the rally that was supposed to happen in Lagos, or that tried to happen in Lagos, till today, we're still waiting to hear about the little girl that was shot at by police officers while people were trying to encode rally for the Euroband nation, or what they call it, a rally, a protest. It was peaceful, but then it turned into something bloody because policemen shot at a girl and that girl died. So were there guns in Lagos? Those were rallies. So when you say they start carrying guns, I want you to explain to us where the guns come in. Yeah, Mary, you have to put it in perspective. If you have to put it in perspective, Lagos had had problems. I've seen the one in Osho. I've seen the one in Oyo where Igbo had a big following and they had protested and no problem. Nobody shot anybody. Nobody dispersed anybody because it is their right. It's their right. Even Igbo has been demonstrated in the East. It is only when guns become involved. Now, in the case of Lagos, the Commissioner of Police have come out to say that, see, we had a very bad experience in Ensaas and because of that, we were not expecting... Who started the shooting? Again, for Ensaas, I recorded every single day at that... No, no, I just want to put... I'm sorry, I'm going to let you speak because we keep going back to Ensaas as an example of sorts as to why we cannot have peaceful protests in Lagos. I recorded, I was reporting from that toll gate every day. At no point did we see that protest become not peaceful until the day that soldiers were dispatched to shoot at protesters. And so when the government makes reference to that, I'm wondering, who made that protest become not peaceful in Lagos and why is the Lagos State Government so afraid of any other protests? I agree with you that Ensaas started peacefully. You know, and it proceeded peacefully. The government was even responding to the Ensaas people. There was no problem until we had involvement with soldiers. I agree with you. And of course, there was no reason whatsoever for that intervention because everything was going on very well. But where the government or the police in Lagos is feeling worried because they felt that, okay, my house had been burnt before and I know I will not take any chances for them. I'm not a spokesman for the police. But police felt that they have to preempt whatever that might happen again by not allowing any kind of protest. But if you want, you can go and talk to the police and you can ask them why they have to stop a peaceful protest. Okay, you need to be out of time. So I want you to quickly just wrap this up. Why do you see this going? Because people are asking that Mimoho and kind of be given a fair day in courts. Do you see fairness playing out at the end of the day? The only thing is a sham. I can tell you, I doubt even anything will come out of it. Does this mean that you do not even trust the legal process and the profession that you belong to? I'm not saying the legal process. The government does not believe in the legal process. Let us stop, like I said, this is just a pretense that I hope we want to take this into court. This is not about trial. This is not about prosecution. This is not about criminality because if this is about criminality, we know who the real criminals are. I don't know that you've seen the video of the EMEA of Darabah State that gave Estmen 30 days to vacate forests in Darabah. That is the kind of situation that we are. Where is the SSS? Where is the intelligence? Why is the intelligence so good in kidnapping somebody in Kenya and abducting him to Nigeria? But the intelligence cannot see the kidnappers. Cannot see the Estmen and they're killing people from the country. Why is the intelligence, the Boko Haram, he took ISIS to kill Shekhar? Where were our SSS? Where was the intelligence? So this is about where they are interested. They have the resources, they have the capacity, but they don't have interest in fighting crime. They are interested in resistance. And they're simply at heart. We need to go. Thank you very much. Inibar Effiong is a legal practitioner. Dennis Amakere is a former director of the DSS. Thank you, gentlemen, for being part of this conversation. Thank you for having me. All right. At this point, I want to thank you all for being part of the conversation. We will see you tomorrow. I'm Baraka Desala to all our Muslim friends. Good night.