 This is the NIO book call for Monday, September 11th, 2023. We are looking at the draft that Klaus has been working on and making suggestions. And I had forgotten to turn on the recording until now. So I think in that spot, there we go. So I think in that spot, something that basically says, hey, our goal is to move the needle on these regenerative agriculture and soil. But lots of people have very different attitudes and approaches to it. A very useful framework is phylogenomics. So we're going to employ it thus. And then you're off and running. Yeah, thank you, Jerry. I was being lazy in my words. And you used the exact right words. So well, I will suggest some text right here. And then Klaus, you can change it to whatever makes sense for you. But I'll paraphrase what I just said right here. OK. Talk amongst yourselves for a moment. So when are you leaving, Klaus? Monday, next week. Beautiful. And the first part of your trip is to South America. Yeah, we're going. We're landing in Santiago, Chile, where the tour starts. We're flying in a day early. And then it goes around Patagonia. And we end up in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Beautiful. Have you been to either of those places? No, no, it's just our bucket list. So suggestion. Two suggestions, OK? One, do not bother with Pablo Neruda's house in Santiago. OK? Do not bother. It's just like this little house. And to get there, you've got to walk up these big hills. And we went, not big hills, but a street up a hill. And when we went there, it was just full of dog shit. I mean, it was just huge. That's my remembrance of the great Pablo Neruda's house. What is lots of fun, though, OK? Is they have these buses that run along the coast up north. Valparaso, I think, is, wait a minute. Valparaso is where Pablo Neruda's house is. It's on the coast. It's an hour's train ride away, I think. That's where Pablo Neruda's house. If you happen to go there to Valparaso, they have these buses that race up and down the coast with rock music playing. And it's kind of a fun experience, OK? Yeah. And Buenos Aires, what a lot of people do is take a boat ride from Buenos Aires on the river. I think it's the Amazon. Yeah. And they often go to. It's the river plate. Río de la Plata ends in BA. The Amazon is elsewhere. I stand corrected. People often take like a three and a half hour boat ride to, I think it's the capital of Uruguay. Yeah, you can basically go across the Mar del Plata to Montevideo. Or Punta del Este is like the kind of touristy, resorty kind of place. Punta del Este is the name of it over in Uruguay. Yeah, but there's a shorter little tour you could take. This is the. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, Bariloche. Cool. Beautiful. There's a shorter tour that you can take from Buenos Aires boat tour to a kind of a colonial village. And I'm blanking on the name right now. Colonia, OK? Colonial village, Colonia, right? And in it, there is a wonderful restaurant called Restaurant Florida, OK? How I got there is when we got off the ferry, there was this, you know, 40s jazz playing. And we were just attracted to go to follow the jazz. And we had this three hour lunch and found out how really good the red wine is from Uruguay. Yeah. But the rest is called Restaurant Florida because it was opened by a chef from Miami who decided to abandon Miami and move to a very, very small place. Grows all of his own food on an organic farm. So just two thoughts. Yeah. Well, we were sort of in that agenda because so much work, you know, too, when you travel on your own. And then you need more than two weeks really if you're ready to do that. But so we just go with what's called, which is love the way they organize their trips. OK. Well, I'm sure if you're going to Buenos Aires, they'll take you on a tour to Teatro Colonia, which is the big concert hall opera house, which is a really interesting tour because they kept running out of money and they kept hiring different architects. So it's a combination of Italian, French, German architecture in this one beautiful concert hall. Yeah. Well, I can't wait. It'll be fun. I love that it generally looks awesome. A couple more tips on VA because I lived in VA for two years when I was 10 and 10 to 12. And then I went back a couple of times. Like the cool part of town seems to now be Palermo. And Palermo has enough sort of subdivisions in it that there's Palermo Norte, Palermo Hollywood is a piece of it. And I had some really nice meals, very different meals in Palermo because the prototypical Argentine meal is a beautiful steak and the same fricking salad in every place you go to. It's astonishing. And then there's a series of sort of neighborhoods that come from downtown. There's a train station Corrotido. You take a commuter train out to Tigre is the last stop. And Tigre is in the middle of the delta of the Mar del Plata. And there's a bunch of little boat tours and other kinds of things. I never figured out what the magic of Tigre was. You do boat rides between the little islands in the delta. There are lots of restaurants there as well. If you see something good there, let me know. You will, on that commuter rail, you will pass a neighborhood called La Lucila. It's one of the stops. That was where my grade school was. And I lived a little further out in a neighborhood called San Isidro. Yep. And I went to the Lincoln School in La Lucila, funny enough. And then the theater that Stuart was talking about is called the Teatro Colón, which is quite famous. And then make sure it looks like you already have one. But if you're just going to watch Tango performances that's kind of interesting. If you otherwise go to a milonga. A milonga is where ordinary citizens go to dance Tango with other people. And it's more interesting, more local, more beautiful. It's not a couple of people doing like ferocious twisting and turning in front of you to perform Tango. OK. Yeah. Well, it's pretty constrained in the sense that this is nonstop. Yeah. The itinerary is like boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom. Yeah. So you won't miss anything. You won't miss any high points. So back to our program, which was already in progress. Yeah. So then we got this abstract. So we'll play with this a little more. And then you wanted me to talk more specifically why am I using chat GPT and how and also spiral dynamics here. So here's what I wrote for the introduction. Now I worked with chat GPT, starting with 3.5, upgraded to 4.0 midway through. And that really made a significant change. I framed the relationship with chat as conversational. In fact, when I first started, the responses came back as, OK, conversation partner. Right. Just using spiral dynamics as a frame of customizing conversations to and with specific audiences. And then I'm putting in here this spiral dynamics paper from Beck and Cohen, which are also inserted into the chat GPT introduction or personalization. They're intuitively understandable, readily observable all around us. And then from a marketing communications point of view, they offer simple to convey markers that guide language and concepts. So when you put yourself into how do I talk to this particular group, this sort of helps to choose metaphors and language. So the interactions are conversational, advancing. And I've had one interaction where chat GPT is saying, I'm going to give you two answers. Please pick the one that you find more aligned with your intent. So it's simultaneously very arrogant, simultaneously ran two responses to my question. And then I picked one, but it would also advance in a sense that it would give me a response. And then I would say, well, you missed that. We could be doing this. And then it comes back saying, that's absolutely right. My apologies. I overlooked that. So the interaction with chat GPT is really amazing. It's really like you're talking with someone. And then coming up with more complex responses. It's now asking me questions, frames responses, starting with considering moral boundaries. So it comes back with considering that you want to use told story as a guide post for the moral dimension of this issue. KFO environment offers multiple choice responses to questions to narrow down the conversation. It's remarkable and has become astoundingly routine. It causes me to change the question, I added multiple responses. I also wanted to have an alignment around moral boundaries and ask to use told story and in particular his letter to a Hindu as a reference to how I see the world. Told story has in my mind crystallized the essence of the human animal. This is who we are. This is how it works. No sense pretending it's not. This that has been tried and failed repeatedly. So what works not to forget the, how does it work? Now these are all great questions to explore. So just referencing how I have customized or laid in some algorithms into chat GPT to frame the conversation. I like this a lot and I'm thinking that your abstract and introduction don't need to be separate. You might want to combine them and then kind of layer in the layer in three things. Thing number one is, hey, here's the situation in the world that's causing me to write this book. I'm trying to figure out how to get healthy soil again. And you've got some of that. Then in order to address people of different groups we are adopting this framework called Spiral Dynamics. And then you talk about Spiral Dynamics and then you say, oh, and by the way, I am co-authoring this with chat GPT, which is like hit the world like a thunderstorm and at the end of 2022. And here's how and why I primed it and what the conversation was like. And you might also, I'm starting to think that because you have a lot of text that's basically straight out of chat GPT that's in the draft, oh, I just had a funny idea. It may or may not be interesting or necessary to distinguish your edits from the original chat GPT. I mean, imagine where the manuscript where we could tell where your edits were and what was raw. I don't think we need to do that, but the idea came into my head as you were talking because I'm realizing that so much of the text is straight out of chat GPT. And then the funny idea I just had which I think you're both gonna like is in the acknowledgments at the top where you say like what this book is, book title. And then you can basically say buy chat GPT as told to Klaus Mager, which is what happens with a lot of sort of memoirs and things like that where the person isn't really that good at writing themselves. So they tell it to somebody or they're a famous person or they went through some thing. So basically instead of listing chat GPT as a co-author or and what you did was generated on chat GPT prompted and edited by Klaus Mager, which is good. But what I'm suggesting is I'll just write it below something like that. I'm just suggesting it as an alternative. Yeah, I mean, that doesn't... It does excite either of you. That chat GPT has more autonomy and direction than is the case because it responds to very specific prompts and questions and it has been very iterative and interactive to get to the outcome here. Good point. Stuart, did you want to voice your objection too? Yeah, well, no, I had two things that I just wanted to say. One, you might, because it's just so earlier on in this, you might have a sentence or two about the utility of chat GPT as a writer, as an author. Could be as just a little bit of an aside. That's one piece. Two, I'm gonna push back on Jerry's thought that you're combining the abstract and the introduction. I think there are two different things serve two different purposes. Some people will only read the abstract and you wanna have that be a kind of a standalone document that summarizes what the content is because a lot of people are not gonna dig in to 50 pages or whatever number of pages it is. What you've got, so what you've got right now as introduction is actually how this book was written. It's really not an introduction to the book. It's a subsection about how the book was written, which is, hey, I used chat GPT to do this. Where it starts with introduction is like an introduction to the book would be about soil, right? So that's why I'm saying if you combine these things then you can flow it all together and it'll make sense because I think that the writing with chat GPT is as interesting as the use of spiral dynamics is as interesting as the overall actual topic of the book which is regenerating our soil. So if you want to separate the abstract and the introduction isn't working as an introduction right now. Like it's not really an introduction to the topic of the book. Does that make sense? What we're looking on the screen right now? Pardon? You can title it maybe something different but I do like the idea of having this separated. You could say how this book was written or... No, I mean as the abstract really is this is the topic here from soil to civilization and how this paper aims to communicate this urgency such as actionable strategies. And then here is how it was written or this is how I went about it technically to write it. This is by the way, no chat GPT. I wrote this myself. Which is what got me started thinking about maybe marking and making visible what you wrote and what chat GPT wrote but we don't need to do that. How about the following suggestion? Take the subheading of introduction and put it where you now have a gen abstract because I don't know that a book like this needs an abstract. I think an abstract is outside the book and different. I think the book needs an intro and the thing that you have right now labeled as abstract is in fact what I would think of as an introduction. Then you can take this subhead where it says introduction and call it how enter chat GPT or how this book was written or this book is a synthesis or something else that nicely encapsulates what this last piece is, which is, hey, I wrote this using chat GPT. And I agree with what Stuart said about some reflections on the use of chat GPT as a writer. Yeah. And I agree with Jerry's suggestions about the abstract and the introduction. You would call this introduction here. Yes. And then this here. And then this, I don't know what title you want but how I wrote this, enter chat GPT. Methodology. Methodology, the process. Okay. And so the moral boundaries, the letter to the Hindu thing. So the last paragraph of this section might wanna go up with the abstract. Well, maybe not. Gosh. Because part of what you saw, the reason you're adding a letter to the Hindu here is that that's part of how you prompted, how you trained chat GPT to respond to you appropriately, right? Yeah, no, I mean, chat constantly refers to a told story. Right. I mean, and what you don't see is I've taken these references out of the responses because I'm editing the text coming back. So I wanted to be in there because it shapes the response by chat GPT to a specific question. I mean, it says considering what told story would think here or considering what Spiral Dynamics is saying. So it fashions responses to it, right? There are several time squares that rewrite this taking out the references to told story and Spiral Dynamics but it's completely embedded in the overall book here, really. So, and I mean, I was watching a video by some 16-year-old kid giving, and I actually posted it on the thread or in our email change saying 23 tips on how to work with chat GPT, you know? And so he wrote a letter to his boss excusing himself from work and it was just a horrible way to write it and he goes, I probably end up getting fired if I submit this. So I asked Chad to rewrite it and then, so chat GPT rewrote it. So that's how, but he's telling chat GPT write this from a teacher's perspective or from a pirate's perspective. So they are telling chat GPT, pretend you're a pirate. How would you frame this? So the young folks are using chat GPT in ways that are like holy smokes, it's just another tool, another toy to play with. So that was really amazing to see. So I'm asking chat GPT to write in the voice of a told story or a spiral dynamics framework. So then the other thing that we were talking about, so here I was coming to the end, Visions for the Future, and I read this, I took a whole bunch of stuff out and rewrote some of it. But Visions for the Future here is, now it's basically the current trajectory of human impact on the environment is creating a verbal effect of consequences affecting both the biosphere and social systems. If not mitigated within the next five to 10 years, these impacts could lead to irreversible damage and create an array of challenges for human civilization. And then Chad is saying my confidence in these statements is high. It's interesting that because I've also asked it to put a confidence factor on its statements. So in the beginning, Chad would say, I have an 18% confidence level, I have a 90% confidence level. And now it's changing it to saying, my confidence is high. So it doesn't put a percentage factor on it anymore, which is sort of interesting. But given the overwhelming scientific evidence, supporting these trends, the urgency of exchange has never been more critical. So then I thought, so where do we go from here? So we have Visions of the Future and it's pretty quirm. So where do we go? And then this is the theory you slogan leading from the emerging future, right? So when you go through the curve, you come down to presencing and then you move to crystallization, right? Meaning you have a clear understanding, now what is our current situation? What are we dealing with? And what would be in the form of crystallization, you define what are desirable outcomes, right? So you go to the other side of the U-curve, on that other side are desirable outcomes. This is where we want to be. But then you move from crystallization to prototyping. prototyping means that you create a project frame that is maybe 60% defined, you know, 60, 65%. So you don't wait to do something perfect because you can't, you don't have enough information for that. So you design something at 60% and then you start prototyping and then you do the, and then you continue designing, you know, as the prototype moves along. And so that's leading from the emerging future, you know, as the future, which is now sort of nebulous and poorly defined, we sort of know, but we don't really know how to get there. So as that picture emerges out of the shadows and you have a clearer understanding, what are all the influence factors you need to consider, then you continue, you know, this design process. So go ahead. What you're doing here is from TheoryU. Yeah. I don't see that you're pointing to TheoryU and if you're calling it the same thing, you should probably include TheoryU just like you included spiral dynamics as an influence. In your introduction, you might wanna say there are several influences here. One of them is TheoryU for how to structure the inquiry and another is spiral dynamics for how to address the audiences. And then it's all clear and whatever. Otherwise, if I see leading from the emerging future and you don't mention TheoryU, it sounds a little bit like plagiarism or you're just sort of like, not saying what you're referring to here. And I think it's a lovely thing to talk about to bring in TheoryU and to say why it's a useful framework here. Yeah. And I think in the intro, it'll make a lot of sense. It'll be like, oh, in order to structure the inquiry, I'm using TheoryU, in order to talk to people, I'm using spiral dynamics. Yeah, actually I have been, I was still working with deep licensing, my gig was, we need to combine TheoryU with spiral dynamics in order to create a communication that really addresses the spectrum of the people we're dealing with. So that has been in my mind for quite a while. So, but leadership is not what a person or an individual does. The essence of leadership is the capacity of the system in which everyone is participating to sense and shape the future and to be in touch with what is waiting, wanting to emerge and then stepping into that. So it is really a collective sensing effort, where everyone, no matter where on the spectrum you are, it's like a hologram. You can step into it wherever you are called to, because it has so many facets. So then this is now again, a reference to spiral dynamics without saying it, not the practicality of using an evolved understanding of human values for social change, or traditional ways of communicating for social change often fall short. They either oversimplify or they create polarised groups, making collective action difficult and evolved understanding of human values inspired by developmental psychology and system theory can significantly enhance the efficacy of our messages and strategies. So why an evolved understanding of values is needed? No, there is audience complexity, a singular message rarely resonates with everyone. Then there's dynamic change. Societies and individuals are not static. They are complex and systems that evolve over time. So a communication strategy should take this dynamism into account. So, Kass, is this section you're reading to us or created by ChatGPT? Yeah, yeah, but I mean, I've been, multiple iterations on this. Great, great. That's great. Yeah, I didn't take this out of CREU. And so this actually came, this is new material. I mean, it came out of this. I had to have it, I had to re-wide it several times to get to this stage here, which makes it really interesting because Chat will tell me, oh yeah, I like this better too. It reads nicely. It's a good summary. Then keep principles for effective communication, holistic insight. Adopting a systems thinking approach is vital. Message should elucidate how each part of a system interacts with and impacts the whole adaptive solutions. No, life is inherently unpredictable and chaotic, rigid linear solutions fall short because they can't adapt to new unforeseen challenges. And that's really the essence of CREU also without, and I haven't communicated with Chat yet about CREU. So I haven't laid that in as a thought model. Came up with this on its own. So communication should focus on flexible and adaptive solutions. And the essence of prototyping in CREU is to be flexible and adaptive. To not vet yourself to, this is our design and we have to make this work, it's simply proposing a design and then see where it goes. Then the integrative approach in our polarized world, integration rather than alienation is needed, acknowledging strengths and contributions of various few points, showing how they can complement each other and the discussions should consider both individual responsibility and systemic factors. Striping for a balanced and nuanced view, transparent intentions, trust basically. Trust is a cornerstone for any meaningful exchange, being transparent about intentions, limitations, potential impacts, it's vital and then data-driven and experiential wisdom. Effective communication uses a plent of empirical data and experiential wisdom. While numbers and facts can provide compelling arguments, stories and experiences often appeal to our shared humanity, offering a more rounded and persuasive message. So the storytelling aspect here. And then how to measure effectiveness and I thought that was really a great response here. Efficacy can't be assumed, it must be measured. So key metrics include engagement, are people actually engaging with the message? You know, one thing that I found, I've been preaching the desertification of huge tracts of land because of chemical farming and how this disrupts the local brain cycle. And for some reason I just couldn't push through until a colleague of mine is a farmer scientist from the Sierra Club wrote this paper and I actually posted it also on the OGM thread where it became so obvious, you know, that soil that is moist absorbs heat and cools it, has a cooling effect, you know, because it increases evapotranspiration so you have water going up and down. So anyway, this resonated everywhere, you know, it was just, so that was, that is a effective communication. And I actually posted it with the climate reality project, with the director of training and the guy just went, wow, this is huge. So from what you're saying right now, Klaus, which is really interesting, I think there might be a section you put in, I don't know exactly where, but here's what I've discovered works in conversations, maybe before you go to spiral dynamics, because the spiral dynamics is a way of amplifying and customizing the messages and the approaches that you want to do for each of the different spiral layers, levels. But what you're saying right now is, you know, I started, in fact, there's a little piece of it that could be like, here's my path through, I don't know if this is in the intro or if this is dead in the middle, but I started by talking about regenerative agriculture and all these kinds of things and that wasn't sticking very well. Then I shifted to talk about water. Everybody really picked up on water and water was non-controversial and whatever else. Then I started going a little deeper into water like the small water cycle and a couple other things where everybody got enthusiastic about it because they're like, oh, I didn't know that. I like water, I want to save water, so water reclamation or water landscaping is interesting, but all of a sudden when I start realizing that there's dynamics about water that are extra beneficial, that got even more interesting. So some narrative about your lessons in trying to do this in different contexts and places would be a personal, a lovely personal reflection and a set of insights in the middle of this text. So just to take that a little bit further, one of the questions that's popping up in my mind is, so why are you writing this paper? Okay, what is it that you want to generate as a result of this book? Well, I think that came out in the introduction here. Our aim is to elucidate the role of soil in the historic rise and fall of civilizations. This paper aims to communicate the urgency, such as actionable strategies in a language accessible to the general public. So by addressing the underlying values and concerns of each, we hope to accelerate a global transition to sustainable agriculture. Great. I just wanted to make sure we had it. Sure, yeah, I mean, that's important. No, I just wanted to make sure we had it. So then, but then here this is coming to this, this conclusion again. And so this is spiral dynamics without saying spiral dynamics in this particular part here why an evolved understanding of values is needed, key principles for effective communication, then how to measure effectiveness. So I can give this example about soil, I mean, dealing with water to get to soil and how people resonate with that. So in conclusion, traditional methods of communicating for social change are often not sufficient for the complex polarized and ever changing world we live in. What's needed is a more evolved understanding of human values that takes into account the complexity and diversity of our society that allows us to create messages that resonate with order range and encourages the adaptability and integration that are crucial for tackling challenges we face. It's not merely a theoretical concept, it's a practical results oriented strategy that has far reaching implications for how we go about enacting meaningful social change. So that's how far, that's how far I've got with it. Wait, where are we now in the document at the very end? Yeah, how to measure effectiveness. So that's interesting, I didn't realize we were at the very end of the document right now because this feels like good summary material kind of up in the middle somewhere. And also because you're drawing explicitly on spiral dynamics and it feels to me and I think this is what motivated you originally that theory you tends to be a very good setup for spiral dynamics, theory you. The conclusions of using theory you are like, hey, you're gonna need to have a complex emergent way of addressing audiences that have very different feelings about this. I don't know why you're saying this is sort of spiral dynamics without saying spiral dynamics, you should make the links more explicit. But that's maybe because you have the God's view of the whole document and chat GPT has only a chunk at a time kind of view. But there's no reason to not say, hey, why an evolved understanding of values is needed and complexity, that's why we use spiral dynamics. See that, go to that section, see it here. But if you make the linkages in your logic more explicit, I think the book then flows as a book. And so this leading from the emergent future, I don't know if this needs to be at the tail end of the book, maybe it's somewhere else in closer to the middle, maybe before you get to spiral dynamics. Yeah, I'm not sure if you go back into the flow here. So we have food revolt, you know why we need to revolt here and how precarious the current system really is. We must consider local conditions. I mean, this is really leading up to an introductory understanding of what is happening in the international world. And then it talks about bio regions. So really an important part. And then how bio regions link in this culture and traditions. So I'm going across here, what you think of Europe, for example, European culture traditions deeply rooted in the history of each bio region. And then comes the impact of industrial agriculture which ignores bio regions and wants to establish a centralized monoculture type of farming where they want to call the same potato everywhere. So you just said industrial agriculture ignores bio regions, which is a lovely sentence that is not in the book. Instead, it says industrial agriculture has had significant impact on the environment affecting various. Yeah, be really direct. Yeah. So then comes the regenerative movement. Here is the response to the industrialization and why this is so important and what it all brings, economic opportunities, social justice, equity, cultural preservation and so on. And then is the path to a regenerative future still in an abstract way of thinking. The role of large scale multinational companies, how do they impact in an economy organized by bio region, multinational companies can play both positive and challenging roles. Positive contributions, but environmental and social challenges. So how these companies ignore bio regions and prioritize short term profits, exploit natural resources, compromise environmental and social standards. And then we go into here, there is such a thing as innovation brokerage in supporting a community-based regenerative transition. And then what skills does it take to become an innovation broker? So right here, before the spiral wizard, right at the end after the skills required for innovation brokerage, right here, just put some X's down right under regenerative transition or something like that, I would put it, I would move and Stuart correct me if you would do something different. I would take that nice section you have at the end that is basically theory you applied to this. I would move it right here because it introduces the application of theory you for generative leadership and all that kind of stuff, which fits pretty nicely in the sequence of things you've been talking about here because you've been landing big ideas, innovation brokerage, bioregions, et cetera, et cetera, boom, boom, boom. It would be a nice sort of conclusion to the whole section and it points directly to spiral dynamics, which you say like because of this, we're using spiral dynamics to do the communication, that's the next section and then you're off to the races, then you will still probably need a conclusion at the very, very, very end. You'll need something like the introduction to wrap things up and get people comfy with leaving the book at the end. But I would move that chunk right here. Stuart? Yeah, I agree and in terms of the conclusion, I would actually say something to the effect of, here's what I've gone through X, Y, and Z, the analysis of the current situation, a few different analytical models to think about as you're trying to influence others. My hope and wish and prayer is that as a result of reading this paper, you choose to take some action and then perhaps list a bunch of things that people might do. And then a small second thing, a whole bunch of the things that ChatGPT has given you are numbered lists. Numbered lists make for terrible books. This is just my impression in terms of formatting. So what you will probably wind up doing, I think, is just removing the numbered indented lists and having communication and relationship building be the heading for a paragraph. And if you take out the numbered list, yeah, and then you bold the titles of each section. So cultural sensitivity and empathy and bold. What used to be the first phrase after the number, just bold each of those and they turn into little baby subsection headings. That is going to read much better through the whole document. Yeah. Class, I want to check on something. Okay. How are you doing with this process? Yes. When you say process, do you mean the conversation right now? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's challenging in a way that I have sort of a flow in my head. And you're messing with it. Yes. That's just what I mean. Okay. How are you doing with the process? How are you doing with the feedback? How are you doing with some of the details we're providing? Because as a writer, there's a tendency to get committed to your words. We fall in love with our own words, with our own process. And it takes a certain mindset to actually be okay with people fucking with your words and your mindset. And I just want to make sure that you're okay. We get defensive at times, okay? Yeah, I'm trying hard to not be defensive about this. I'm just shuffling this flow together. All we're doing is making suggestions. You're the author. You're the ultimate arbiter of how it all hangs together. And it says what you want it to say. Yeah. So CREU hasn't come in flowing into the conversation until now, until I started getting into the end of it here, where basically, so I'm saying, so my first thought was it belongs here because now we're moving into solutions. So the first part that we have here, before Spiral Dynamics came about, hold on, this is probably faster too. Where is it? So until here, I'm basically describing scenarios. This is an explanation of the agricultural system is totally mocked up. There are historical examples of why this is a very dangerous thing to do. And the changes required would constitute a regeneration of farmland. And so here is how regeneration works, mostly in few of bio regions. So that's, and then here's the skill sets that you would need to make that happen. So then I was coming into, let's talk about Spiral Dynamics here, the Spiral Visit. And then I have an introduction, utilizing Spiral Dynamics for practical and results oriented communications and systems change. So that's a tool set. So how does this really work? So I put in an introduction here, which we talked about last time. When approaching communication from an advanced system in a few points, several core principles emerge, such as holistic understanding, flexibility, integration over alienation, contingency planning, transparency, data tripping and experiential learning. And I can take the numbers out and highlight. So by adhering to these principles, we can tailor messages for practical applications. So then we come engaging minds, changing menus. So I'm still focused on how do you communicate this stuff and how do you interact with people who will take this on an emotional level. Because even within the Sierra Club, the last meeting I had was just getting really contentious because you can't tell people what they should eat. Well, I'm not telling people what they should eat. I'm telling people about the consequences of what they eat and let them make their own decisions. But this is really knee-jerk reactive stuff. But then coming back to the crisis of the industrial food system, food as a cultural element. And so how do you engage the general public gives a spiral dynamics approach. And then it's the summation. Then there's food as a cultural element. How do you deal with this? How do you talk down, bottom-up approaches, mixed approaches? And then communicating insights in the course of actions. You know, communicating bottom-up, top-down. Again, public and private partnerships, social and moral appeal. And then from there, I have this chapter talking in colors. So this is now a deep dive. What does spiral dynamics actually have to say in the context of climate change? Within the context of a food system to people who live in a communication or information bubble that is linked to the stage of development they have. And this is where spiral dynamics has these segmentations that are really pretty common sense, understandable. So this is what a person living in red thinks about climate change, about their social environment. And then out of this, then comes the, we got all this now. And then there comes this next thing is, so what are the visions of the future? Where are we going? And so the first part of that is it looks really pretty grim and take it serious. And then I wanted to transition now to talk about what does this mean in practical terms? So we got all this late in. We have all the influence factors and the negativity. And here's how people are positioned in the matrix of the society. So where do you go with this? And then I go leading from the emerging future, because we don't really know where we need to go yet. We sort of have a rough understanding, right? But it's way too broad to have any level of specificity. So I'm going to reconsider my earlier suggestion to move this into the middle partly because you're convincing me of a couple of things. One of them is that ending the book with spiral dynamics and a communication strategy seems like a weak ending. It feels like you go in depth into it a lot, but it wasn't making me happy that that was the whole thing. Where here, you're saying, hey, how do we act into the future? And you're using it for you and a couple of other things to give some pragmatic advice. That actually works as a good way to end. So I'm liking that that would happen. And I would, again, explain theory to you a little bit more or bring it in explicitly so that you can talk about it. But as an application strategy or framework, I like it a lot. I got confused earlier when you had the introduction section up in the middle. It felt like there was a book inside the book. No. Let me go back and see if I can recover. Communicating insights. No, not that. Where'd it go? Here's another introduction under the spiral visit. Yes. Introduction is under the spiral wizard. Yes. It felt like you were doing a book inside the book because there you have the crisis of the food system. So all the pollution. I was like, wait, didn't we already do that earlier? So this, so this section, the crisis of the industrial food system and so forth. I was like, wait, this feels like territory we should have covered earlier in the intro of the setting of the problem. We did. We did. This is a repeat. Okay. And you have. We emphasizing the soil depletion water. We talked about this at length in the, in the other sections. Okay. So maybe what you can say is why you're repeating it here and refer back as we said earlier, soil depletion really matters, but we're, but we need to emphasize it. We need to do something else to it. Cause right now I'm feeling like you don't even remember that you wrote about soil depletion earlier and it's not connected where if you want to bring these things up again, it's not a way to refer to weave them into the text. Does that make sense? If, but if, but if what you're doing here is introducing spiral dynamics and trying to go straight to the communication strategies, then I'm not sure you need the crisis of the industrial food system and food as a cultural element here, unless they make a lot of sense for the thing you're trying to build right now. And what you, what it feels like you can do here is say, Hey, we have some books here that are really popular. Like a lot of people are worried about water and soil. And, and, and then food is like this great common, common bond that, that people have across the way. We're going to apply those three things which we talked about earlier in more depth to a spiral dynamics approach for communication. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I saw that saying that sort of same year. Well, we have so using spiral dynamics for practical and results oriented communications and social systems change. So we got that. And actually, I don't need any headline here. Yeah. You know, it's just made just be confusing. Your format just changed. Just change that to normal text. Yeah. So I think what might be useful. Is for you to take in this feedback. Okay. Right now. I'd call the book. It's a hot document. There's a lot of emotion in it. And, you know, it's almost perfect that you're headed out on a vacation. Leave it alone. Yeah. For three weeks. Just leave it alone. Don't even look at it. You know, maybe, maybe make some of the changes that we talked about today, but then just leave it alone. Let it cool down. And then come back to it when you get back and, and have a sense now, a greater sense of clarity about what you wanted to do and how you wanted to do it. And, and then read what you produced and see if it does it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't sure how far down the pipe. I wanted to go with this, but I really like this. Siri you frame here because I mean, when you think about the level of uncertainties, I have a meeting tomorrow here at Ben's. You know, I organized a panel discussion, the screening of the Kiss the Crown short version, and then we have a panel discussion. And it's packed. I mean, it's amazing that I got an article into the local paper. Not the editor is there. There's really starting to people starting to raise their heads and thinking, wow, there really is an issue with food. That's a whole lot bigger than what we have looked at in the past now. Yeah. It's a, it's a big deal because, you know, as you, as you, as you say in a lute to there's all kinds of cultural aspects tied to it. And then the transition, the mindset that people will, you know, we'll go through. It's like, you know, right now we think nothing of importing food sources to reflect the culture that we come from. And yet, you know, some of that is, it's killing the ecology. It's killing the ecology and it's time to get used to eating from local food sources. And that being said, that's a good thing because that's some of the change that needs to take place for all of us. Yeah. And so the interesting part is that when you think about CREU, you have, you have just like in Spiral Dynamics, people in different stages along the line, right? You have people who are barely encountered the iceberg model and barely have glimpsed underneath to see what's all involved here. You have others who are ready to prototype, but they don't necessarily have the consensus behind them to do what they want to do, right? Because there is just not enough participation by enough people to make these things work. So the essence of CREU is really to move people into a presencing stage where everybody agrees on, here are the issues. I was in a meeting this morning with a group that it's the Farm Action Fund and now they put in these policy recommendations and all of that. And they have completely missed in their recommendations the need for agriculture to decentralize, right? Because it's so centralized 40% of our foods and vegetables come from California. Well, you know, they can't do it anymore. So now we're importing, we are actually having a trade deficit in agricultural imports if you can believe this. It's crazy, right? But the general public doesn't get this yet. So they haven't thought about it yet, the implications of having to decentralize the food supply and the lead speaker in the meeting when I post the question, he goes, yeah, honestly, we haven't really thought about this yet. And so my solutions, you know, when you are not clear yet on what it is you need to solve now. A couple of things, because I have somebody else coming into this room at the top of the hour. So I will have to end on time, unfortunately. A couple of things. Klaus, I'm assuming you're not going to be on the calls for your vacation. So we'll miss you for three weeks. I think Stuart is right on where you can let this thing cool off a little bit, but also as you're bored with or want to retreat into the room and start doing some work, this is a perfect thing to sit and sort of look at again and work on. So I think you'll have some fun time with it while you're away. Yeah, but let it chill for a while. Yeah. And then Stuart, shall we meet next Monday and go into your work and other stuff? And like, should we keep the Neo book calls going while Klaus is away? Do you want to suspend them until Klaus is back? No, I'm good. I'm ready to dig in. I'm ready to dig into my stuff. Sounds great. Sounds great. And I will have stuff to bring in as well. So when you come back, Klaus, we will probably have a couple of different pies baking in the oven or something like that. That should work. I think it'll be fine. Any other thoughts before we shift modes and so forth? I'm good. I mean, it's sort of flowing along. You've done a lot of work. It's great. It's actually absolutely wonderful in terms of the stuff that you've included. Yeah. I hope you haven't said a bad precedent for me because I don't want to use chat dpt. That's just a preview, Jerry, for the conversation next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it goes. Klaus, any other questions for us or thoughts? No, I'm good. I'm going to play with this theory you stuff. I think that will make that will make a nice continuation of this conversation here. Yeah. And as you make theory you more explicit here in this section, you might want to add a paragraph about theory you in your introduction. Because just like spiral dynamics, I'm going to apply this other model called theory you and here's why. And I think that'll bind it together nicely. Yeah. Okay. Very good. And I can guarantee you as a result of, you know, all of us noodling, the end product will be better. Oh, there's no question. Thank you guys. I mean, we are already. No, no, you have been very helpful. Don't don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Good. Yeah. Okay. Very good. And I can only I can only share my own, my own, my own experience of sitting with, you know, four different marked up manuscripts and sitting there as the author going. Yeah. So that's what I say, you know, remember, you are the ultimate arbiter. Because it's, it's, it's your book. Okay. Yeah. No, but I do appreciate the feedback. Cool. And actually defending it. I think it brings it home clear to myself. Absolutely. As you, as you get thoughts, send us email or use the Nio books channel and matter most whatever you want. You know, we'll be on the beat. Okay. Yeah. My wife's wet and physical, physical altercations if I keep working with my own vacation. We don't want to, we don't, we don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Go enjoy your family and enjoy the south man. Have a, have a, have a wonderful time. Yes. All right. Thank you. See you next week. Okay. Cool. Bye.