 April 2nd 2019 rules ad hoc rules procedure town council committee is hereby called to order at 9.40 a.m. Who's taking minutes? I did it the last time, I know it's not me. Usually the person who did it last just knows it's not them. Yeah, do we want to time things today or not? We probably should. I think it would be helpful. Try half an hour to start on each of those? If we've got three, that would give us a half a break. So I'm going to just jump in and suggest we start with meetings. And did you move it wholesale in terms of language or was there any language changed? I didn't compare, so I'm just curious. I'm pretty sure I moved it wholesale, I'm pretty sure I copied and pasted it. But at some point I can go back and double check. I just thought I'd ask. Because I didn't compare and I figured you'd know. So I uploaded it onto, I think I re-numbered it as a number one just so it wouldn't get confused. And Darcy had put in some Darcy edits where she did a CSDD with some yellow highlighted. So I worked on that to get to something called a V1. I'm sure it was like 99.9% yours. You changed a little bit of wording. I liked it, so I just took it. I completely forgot. Some of this was read long enough ago, so people won out. So the V2 or something? I think this was V1. It was V1 because we hadn't discussed it at all. So we had it, it was called initial thoughts. So this will be... Shall we just go through each numbered section? Yeah. So I had a re-wording for number one, someone substantial. I added the vice president into the first sentence because the charter says that one specifically. So I guess it's the second sentence. In the absence of the president, I said then the vice president shall preside over the meeting since that's specifically what the charter says. And then in the absence of both the president and vice president, the following order shall determine who presides. So you would just do the president shall chair in the absence. The vice president. Okay. And then here's the next order. So I decided my suggestion was to order and pick an order of four of our now five standing committees. So start with finance and then I went with just randomly OCA and then CRC and then governance. You know, go down each committee and say this chair, this chair, this chair and then if none of them are available, then we select. But again, if none of those six people are available, then we probably should be having a meeting. But I was wondering if we want to designate just one before the council votes or if we just want to designate each chair and just pick an order of committee. This chair rather let you guys speak first. Although this one hasn't been one. I hate to at 945 already be disagreeable, but I'm feeling disagreeable about this. I think one of the points of this is not to is to make this as user friendly as possible. And if you bury vice president in that first sentence, it's not user friendly. The first sentence says it's going to be the chair and then the very first bullet point after that is the vice president. And if you want to put the charter reference there just to be really clear that you didn't pick that at random, I would be totally fine with that. But then that way it's like somebody's I immediately goes to first as opposed to it's within that first sentence and then you have to go to second. And then the other part is after the chair, the finance committee, which I think is is excellent, right? That's the other standing committee. Then third, I don't see huge value in picking the other committees because the other committees might not exist as was firmly pointed out to. So we I'm not sure why we would want to choose that for people. I think that I like it the way it is. Or that's the point where you take a pause and say, wait, we don't have the first three people are is it really appropriate that we should be meeting? And then some somebody realizes, well, yeah, actually, there's still nine of us here. You know, we could we could do this. But but I'm less comfortable with trying to actually leave this. Exactly. Unless go ahead and add that charter reference because that's very specific that we didn't just pick it. Right. I think at least the charter reference would be to to something. Oh, come on. To to see. So disappointed. I think it's C. It's also a little tricky to list the committees of the council in any kind of order because then that gives the impression that even though it was randomly done. Right. And I really think that in all reality, you know, we're that we're the case to happen. Right. We're still safe because people are going to look around the room and say, OK, clearly that person's been doing this other committee for a while. We will pick them. Yeah. Yeah. We'd be smart. You can see me typing. Yeah. This way. We just do it here. I don't want to download it. Okay. Regular meetings. Okay. So I guess then my next question would be just and this is just Samantha. Do we need to say first, second, third? If we say the following order shall determine who shall preside? Do we need to then say first, second, third, or can we just shorten that up? Because again, I think it's. I think it's. I know what to do next. First, I do this, then I do that, and I do the next thing. Three equal bullets. I just like it. I like it. I think it's short. It's A, B, and C rather than bullets, but it's only three words. Yeah. It's easy to. For me, I'm so new to all of this legislative stuff that having bullet points and. Where you can just. Second, third. Yeah. This is the rules for not dummies because we're all really smart, but version versus that somebody who's really familiar with the rules already. Okay. So. Two, I had one sentence to add and then just one small change the annual calendar. I would change to of regular council meetings instead of of four council meetings. I would just say of regular to make sure it we're setting our regular schedule. And then at the end, I would just put the charter reference that just reaffirms that the town, the council must meet at least one time each month. Just to reaffirm. I would put it on the public at the end. Yeah. At the end of that whole set of things, the town, the council must meet at least one time each month. So you would. Having. You know, I don't know. Having just said we're going to meet twice a month. Yeah. The other section that says we have to meet once a month seems completely bizarre to me. Yeah. No, I know. We are in agreement with the charter. Right. So I don't see why we have to say the charter says we have to meet once a month in here at all. I think the only way you can use the charter reference. Because if you put the charter, we had this argument with the bylaw review before we had the bylaw review when I told them how unhappy I was with it provided to us already, which was you can't cite the charter at the very end of the paragraph unless all the things in the paragraph are from the charter. So you could start out. You could start out with saying have to be held at least once a month for charter blah, blah, blah, but shall be held. And if and what we're really so I could see putting that in there, you know, to be comprehensive. But on the other hand, if we're going to say this is the rule that it's first and third Monday until we change the rule. So it's a question of how much do you want to put in the rules? That's true. Do we want to leave it at do we want to just say that we all agree that we're going to conform with the charter and not say anything. Or do we want to say as we have here, we're going to do it every first and third Monday. And if we're going to change that schedule regularly, we're going to have to actually have the council revise the rules. So are we willing to have which I think we maybe are. I don't know. But are we willing to have the council revise the rules to change away first and third Monday? Or do we need to be more broad? I think that it might be meant to cover like if we decide that August is a holiday for the council. We still would have to meet once in August. Right. So the rules themselves per the charter have to include when our regular meetings are under two, six D something. So that's what this paragraph is doing. Right. So I support throwing in the first and third Monday of each month with that whole center. Should we go ahead and be permissive here? No. No. I'm just saying that that may be a reason why that sentence isn't redundant. Right. Because that might be something that would come up. It says as we're adjusting, we can't adjust the Labor Day one to August and the mid-September Rosh Hashanah one to October because then we've just violated this other. You know, you can't adjust the July one to late June to avoid July 4. So maybe what we want right after the schedule is adjusted as a new holiday. Right. The next sentence could be. The town council must meet at least once a month. Time for a month. At least once a month. And then you could put the charter. Or should we just do it that way? I mean, it depends. And so that would cover you of where you could go down to just one in July and August. But you can't go to zero. Right. Yeah. And in reading this, should the heading, the first sentence isn't actually a sentence without saying regular meetings before, shall, because of the semi-colon? Are you trying to use real sentences? Real sentences, yeah. So regular meetings, colon, underlined, or however we're going to do the heading. And then it would read, regular meetings shall be held. It's actually nicely explicit in terms of managing people's expectations. Right. So maybe that would be good to add in. I think maybe we should wait till next year. Yeah. I don't see us taking us down to once a month this year at all. We'll still meet second time. We've already set our schedules. So I think actually, I like that, because why don't we put it in, but then we can take it out later as we sit and think about it more. But I like that phrase. If you can pick up that phrase, because that clarifies where we're at. No, but we're not attending twice a month. July is a holiday. Well, but we've scheduled two meetings in July, August, and December already for this year. Yeah, but that's not. If you agree, we can have a second. The rule. Yeah. I mean, the rule is not that we have to, just because we decided this year that we're meeting in July. And then repeat the words, regular meeting shall be held. I would repeat it. I would repeat regular. You want to say regular because that goes back to the whole that goes back to what needs required for public comment and other requirements. So maybe two now has like two bullet points under it rather than trying to do it all. The first bullet point is the part about regular meetings and the second bullet in terms of layout. Oh, I like it. Okay. So I'm going to, the first. And that gives us a place to put the annual calendar as well. We could have that as a separate bullet point. And that, those one. Regular meeting shall be held. So regular meeting sits out as its own, okay? Yeah. And then. Yeah. I would get rid of that whole clause. I mean, I'm not sure I'm in agreement with meet only once during July, August, and December, but I'd get rid of this anything after that. May meet only once during. And then take out that clause about the second Tuesday. Right. Take out the whole section. Just, just end the sentence after the word December. Again, we're trying to suit so many people. We're trying to make sure we're clear on public comment. We're trying to make sure we're clear on a new person looking at this person who's been doing it forever. That's right. Okay. Good. Yeah. And what's the phrase? Yeah. From the charter on town bulletin board, because I get nervous about calling things postings that are actual meeting posts. It's just on the town bulletin board. Where are we on that? So just posted on the count. So on this first one posted on the town. I just don't want to imply that the town bulletin board. Meeting's posting was used. It's slightly different way of speaking. Yeah. So my question only with quorum, I had some rewarding, but I don't really care about that is we have this in voting. Do we leave it here until we see the whole set of roles together and decide which place it's more appropriate or I think it has to be here. So then maybe it's not in voting. I think it has to be in both. It definitely has to be here because so we're in this meeting. So you can have a meeting and no votes because they're vote requirements. But the vote requirements still have to specify what the quorum was in concert with the vote requirements, right? I mean the vote requirements aren't based on. Well, I'm not sure you need to restate what quorum is. We can maybe when we see the whole set of rules together we can decide. But I think it definitely needs to be in here. I think this is more appropriate than in the voting section. It might need to be repeated over there. We'll have to see. Okay. Depending on the phrase associated with the vote. And I would add the reference to the CMR for the participating remotely. And I'd add the reference to the charter for the first sentence. Those were my two other changes. So the first sentence that quorum is charter section 2.6B. And the remote is a state reference. And so that's 940 CMR. MGO. Nope, CMR. Mass rags. It's also our remote participation policy. But it's 940 CMR 29.10. But it's going to be next. So CMR 29.10 is not controlling though. Our local policy is 10, 4B. 29.10 parentheses 4 then parentheses B. Is the regulations that say. 29.10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 10. 17. 20. 20. Ten. 21. 22. 22. 22. 22. 27. 30. 29. 30. 30. 30. 30. 30. 40. . 40. . 30. 30. . 30. 30. 30. references given that so many of them have letters, what's the find and replace theory behind this in terms of saying charter 2.2B with a space, without a space, section, okay, with a SEC period before it. So charter SEC period, just in terms of as we're adding, might as well add them correctly. SEC period, space 2.2, no space, well, yeah, no space, no space, and then another end per end because you've already got a charter in per end, okay, that's the standard. The B has to have a per end. The B is a per end around it and then there has to be a closed per end for the whole thing. So that's why it looks funny because it's got two. And then you do go on to explain the town's remote participation policy. Yes. And I think you're fine that you're not reciting or you could recite the town's policy. Well, you could recite the CMR there because the CMR says if you have a local policy. I mean, I don't know. I wouldn't cite the policy. We reference the policy. The only thing I would say is after council meeting, remove through remote participation and just say remotely because it's kind of participate remote essentially may participate. You could put remotely right after may participate in fact in remotely in any council meeting in compliance with the town's participation policy. Actually remotely going right after participate makes more sense. They participate remotely. In any council meeting in compliance. We so fun. We have an agreement in the rules. It's in the rules that we have not been following. I think it's actually still a really good idea. I think that we should just say. Right. We've never done it. We've not done it. So should we just delete it? I think it's a brilliant idea. I think that we need to go back to it because we need to. Do we want to keep it 10 or do we want to keep it 10 30 until last night? We'd had a good two month run where we were pretty much done by 10 30. Do we want to stick 10 or do we want to. So what I liked in notion was you don't bring forth something brand new after this. It's not that you necessarily zip up your bags and leave the room. Right. Exactly. You might suddenly be in town 10 30 if you haven't finished something but you don't start a whole new discussion at 10 o'clock. Exactly. It depends on where you are in the agenda. Right. And then you decide. I'm waiting all night. But you'd rather have them on topics. Yeah. Although if the person's there and been sitting there for four hours and then we've done a bad. I think we've done a really good job. If there's an audience, we're just moving into this. Yes. Yes. We're holding ourselves hostage but not other people. Yeah. It makes sense to have a discussion at 10 or 10 30 about. Do we want to continue. What are the remaining items on the agenda that are absolutely necessary. Right. That's exactly it. It's not a hard stop. It's a stop and say where are we. I was just questioning whether we wanted to keep it 10 or whether we wanted to do 10 30. No agenda item shall be brought forth. So that's sort of the if you want to go back to the town meeting after 10 there always had to be a vote for every new agenda. And so if we voted after 10 to hear agenda item eight when we get to nine we didn't have to re-vote. So how does this comport. I mean how does this what I'm asking is how does five and do we want to because now we have two things entitled regular meetings. So how does five's material work in with two's material. And how much do we need to call out separately versus bullet points because I just think it doesn't make sense to skip from two and then down five. But. So it could be time. We could retitle it. Time. Is there. Or length of time. And it also mentions public comment. The other thing I think what you might be suggesting is we could just move number five. We just go into regular meetings. That's what I'm saying. Extra bullets. Yeah. Or two bullets. Right. Public comment. So the six thirties one bullet the ten o'clock's another bullet and the public comments another bullet because they all belong to regular meetings. That's why you specify regular meetings. Now that now that we know what we know. Right. Meetings right. Well. No. Regular meetings. It's still a regular meeting. I would do that. Yeah. It just doesn't need to be underlined anymore. And the last bullet point I'll need a period somewhere. Come on. I'm taking the capital H off of holiday. And then the ten o'clock is a separate bullet point as well. You'd still leave it within six thirty. Yes. They start at six thirty and they don't go past ten unless you vote. It's all kind of related. Okay. You're looking at that phrase as a. As a time. As an envelope. Okay. So minutes. The bullet points I had concerns about. I think your bullet points are one of two options. So these were potentially. Yeah. I figured they might be choices. But. Because I didn't want to edit. You know. You know in other words there were two different ideas. Right. This was. You were camped in. Put some minutes on. You know. Right. Just a quick. It's what we kind of did. Like when should they be. So it was like how soon do we want these minutes available. Yeah. So if we want. Or. As a committee here are thinking of doing the second one the 48 hours. We need to have a. Conversation with the clerk. Because. Right now what happens is. The clerk. The Athena prepares the minutes. So she has to go back to the video and use Margaret's notes. To do that. And that's not possible within 48 hours. Because you don't even have a video available. For at least 24 of that. So we would need to have. Someone would need to have a. Conversation with the clerk about how minutes are being. Prepared. Know where I got that. Is. That we have a. We have a district meeting. And. Bernie Kubia came. And when he said that when he was a town manager. He had them out in 48 hours. But the other. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I'm not sure about that. Actually. I think that. I think aspirational is important. And I think that when. We present this. If we're told. No. This can't happen. I think the aspiration is still there. I don't think we should be based on. What. The town manager has decided is our level of resources. So. So let me ask. If the video is. When is the video. I have no idea when. Amherst media. That's not a relevant problem for us. The problem. I was going to say. We think. The process. The process is. There's a. Draft note. I don't know. I don't know why you would say anything. At that point. I mean what. I mean. Within two weeks. Five days. Faster. Right. Monday night. I guess I'm just trying to figure out. What's our what's our real aspiration here. Let's pretend resources aren't an issue. What. What would be our real aspiration for draft. Why couldn't they just take the. Handwritten drafts or the computer drafts. That Margaret takes. During the meeting. Just clean them up slightly. I mean. I don't know what she does during the meeting other than the. I don't know what kind of note she takes. My my aspiration would be. What is our true aspiration. Yeah. In terms of resources aside. A working draft of minutes. By the end of the week. But one of the things I wrote was something like a. Summary of the actions taken. At the meeting so all the votes we did can we get a. Summary of that within like a day. Voted council voted unanimously to approve. The SOI for Fort River voted unanimously to approve. The East street school so that that can go out. Like. Facebook on something like that. I don't necessarily need within two days. Or a summary of what we discussed in terms of. Point here made point here made but I would love somehow. Those actions we took last night. To be. Summarized somewhere by the end of say today. So that it can go out on official. Social media platforms of what we did. So. If she's not that's not our fault and so. That's crazy if she's sitting there for four hours and not taking. Exactly. So she's definitely taking votes and not sure she's always capturing. The names from. The way she looks around the room but if she is great I think. I think she may have a chart that she's marking our names off. On like a like a seating chart. And that helps her. And so. But. I agree completely. Because why are we spending resources if it's not actually. But I will point out that. As those of you have been on town meeting now. The town clerk used to be able to crank out the votes for the next. After town meeting. Because of course they weren't having to take actual minutes. They've taken. Right. I don't like that. The vote. The strict thing about the summary because that's what came up in our. This meeting was. In the literal. But as much as what was the summary. That's readable and understandable to people that were actions. Well. What does that mean because. You can't you can't describe a summary. Okay. You can say. Actions taken. Votes taken. You know. Referrals taken. Because those are all votes. Or. Consensus. That to do something. It's not about what we are. Tending to do all. With everything. And so. You just say votes. Because summary then becomes. Well I wish I would have understood three or four. Sentences about what you did. And at that point you've just written the minutes. But if we could say the vote. So. If. Themselves like. The first part. Is fine. What we wanted. Yeah. And then. Minutes. On. Showing. So we can have a bullet. So. Showing. The votes taken. Well I feel. Or just have a record of the votes. So it's a voting record. Yeah. Minutes then. Okay. No. Because minutes have to include the. Summary of discussion and all. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Technically. Votes taken is not. Is not minutes. Right. So. So a record of the votes taken. Shall be made. Available in. Electronic form. Within. One. Business day. Two business days. By the close of business. The day after that. I don't. How would we word it within 24 hours of. The end of. We say within 24 hours. And leave it up to interpretation. Or what do you want. Do you want. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. Want to know. Interpretation. Or what do you want. Do you want it to be by. Four thirty. P. M. The next day. By close of business the next day. Business. The day after the meeting. Yeah. Good. By close of business. The day after the meeting. Because that's really what the public. Truly. How does she know what actually happened. Last night. They want to know everything. Right. Of course. In terms of facts. They want to know. Right. And then the second bullets. Minutes of the. Should be made available. You know, so I'm just making two, the record of the votes is done minutes of the meeting. Which I want to come back to after we finish these bullets. Instead of should, shall. Shall. I know, right? I will. You wrote a should, Kathy. I wrote a should, too. Yeah. Made available in electronic form is better. I think it's in electronic form, yeah. Or draft minutes. I don't know. I don't know whether we have to say draft. Well, you probably, well, wait. Realistically, that's what you're asking for. Right. Yeah. Because we haven't yet, at that point, we haven't yet said what's going to be the method of approval. We're just saying whatever the method of approval is, draft minutes shall be made available in electronic form. That's the question. So because the approval process is separate, although related. Right. Shall be included in the next regular meeting packet. Because that we deal with in agendas or somewhere else. Meeting packet times. Why can't we get given that sometimes the next agenda packet, even the minutes, we don't get till Friday. And it's two weeks after we met. So somehow the minutes sort of. Or it's three weeks. Yeah, the minutes. It's probably a discussion that our president needs to have with the town clerk. Because as the clerk of the council. But what do we know? Yeah. We wouldn't have to also read minutes. You know, I mean, sometimes. Agree. We would have that first. That's the first thing we all need before we go into the meeting. Within four or five days after the meeting? By the Monday afternoon. So that's. Monday afternoon. Do we include the weekend or not, I guess is the question. And so we've said votes by the business business day, which typically not always, but typically would be Tuesday. Right. Because we have a meeting Monday night, so Tuesday by closed business. So then do we want the draft minutes available in electronic form that Friday? Or do we want it the next Monday? I mean, we should say what we want. And then we'll do that. Let's say by Friday, closed business. Close business Friday? After the meeting. Before we're going into a new week of town council business, so to speak, even if we're not actually meeting. It's better than what we have. I'd really like to hear from Bernie Kubiak about how he did it, you know, in his town. Yeah. Getting them out in 48 hours. I think we're not just making this up just because we'd like to. I think it's that we think it would make our work go better. And we think it would help the public. It's a public thing too. It truly is a public thing. But it also makes our lives easier if we remember what was going on less than five days ago. Yes. I'm going to put it after any meeting. Any meeting. Well, so then we should instead of do it Friday, close a business because there's a meeting say Thursday this week. That's a council meeting. So we should do it for. Do you want to just say after regular Monday meetings because we've already specified that? Or we could just say by close of business for business days later or and then it's consistent if the meeting if we have a meeting on Wednesday. Then you don't have to deal with it separately for emergency meetings or special meetings. It's all. And I mean, everybody knows that something's going to slip at some point, but this is our base. This is the baseline. So I think approval of minutes goes under its own bullet point when we decide. I mean, not, it's not in number five. I just not. I know. I don't know whether we need it. Well, do we want to add more time to this or go to another thing? I'd like to talk about minutes a little bit more. We let's add more time to this one. So I have two points. One is our first paragraph is actually got some challenges in that some of those are according to the chart. Some of those are according to what some of you want. Some of those are according to MGL. And I don't think we should be presenting them. I want to be clear on what we're presenting as fact versus preference. And so the names and make of the makers and seconders is completely not a thing in any rules except if we make the rules. The record taking of each vote with charter is chart. So I think it's important to space out what we think is when we don't have choice about the record about by each counselor. We do have a choice about some of the other issues. I'm mainly, I would really like to see if we can get through as many sections as possible. So I agree with you, but I'm wondering if we know we need to do that. Okay. So maybe should I just take a stab at it? Yeah. Okay. I'll go back to that section. What I would suggest is downloading this whole document and then uploading it. Yeah. So the CS version is the one we've been editing here today. Yes. And then if you, the best thing to do is download it to your machine. Do what you want to it. And then load it back up as a B2. Okay. Okay. So just when you get to it. Absolutely. So I agree with what you just said. Great. And then that way we can move on to something else. I think that, that comment and modify that first paragraph. So I'll work on that. And then the question is, do we want to remove this whole thing about. I would. So wait, wait, wait, wait, why would we take that out? I mean, I'm not saying a method of approval. A method of approval. Yeah. So whether it's that method or not is the question, but I think we should address. So I don't think we should give an option. That's one of the things I don't like about this. This is president approves or you vote as part, we should just say, we're either going to do a vote or we're going to do a president approval. You have choices. Which could be approval by the public body chair alone by majority vote of the public body by consent of the public body approved unless there is an objection. So it's actually three separate. So I think if the president is authorized with the approval, no one else sees the minutes before approval. That the awkward part was when Lauren said, oh, you can't really have two people working on the minutes. It's like, wait, what? That's a new thing. I have literally never heard anyone say before in 11 years of open media law training. So what that means is that you really can't give feedback to the president. You can only give feedback to the clerk. Right. And then you have to hope the clerk is incorporating it before they give it to the president. I think the way we've been doing it, just vote. So we should say by majority vote of the council because that's one of the choices. And so we should make that clear so that nobody wonders later. By majority vote of the council. Yeah. And maybe someday we'll be feel differently. But for now, this is how we feel. Can always be changed. Do we need an executive session section? It's all governed by state law. That's what I was thinking. Let's just take it out because the only thing I would say if I did leave it in there is must be governed by state. You must follow state law. So do we even need to mention it? Like, don't do anything here. People might want to know what it is. Because it's only certain things, right? So wait, we have a separate agenda section, right? Yes. So it should be in there. It's listed as one of the agenda options. The explanation of how it works in terms of this part here that already currently says could be over there because that's where it matters is in terms of the agenda. You're going to have to be able, you're going to have to have the president cite the reason, call for a council vote. That all has to happen as part of the agenda. Right. But we, is the agenda order? Yeah. I see. It doesn't really fit in. No. It doesn't. The agenda order does have posting. That's where the posting of agenda and packets timing is. And that's where the president can move the order. So you could add it. So you have other text there that isn't just the list of agenda. So you could move it over. And the question is, do we list it like that? Or do we just say, shall follow mass general law? Do you like the part where it says about by a majority is necessary to initiate? I mean, it's kind of an odd phrase, but I actually might be user-friendly in terms of people understand executive session. Yeah. People want to know. I mean, when it happens. We take that. We take that and we move it over. It's a trigger for the public. You know, they're like, why are they going into executive session? Yeah. Right. And how? Who decided? They decided that that's how you do it. Yeah. So this entire part of it's just going to move over. Just move over. And then you just do that. And be a little beefier. Oh, you're just going to note that it does. And it'll be a little beefier than we might have otherwise intended to make it clear to the public. And then we have the brand new public dialogue session. So I thought that should be moved down to other council meetings. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. In terms of we have this thing. Just like you have special meetings. Special meetings. We have work sessions. Yeah. That makes sense. Public dialogues. Emergency meetings are under this. Now that we see how the rest of it shapes up, that's where it fits. Yeah. Here's your options for other meetings. So I'm a little confused. So rule three, I'm like really good running all the way down through other council meetings, special meeting, work sessions, emergency meetings. Then this part that starts agenda is this background or is this an addition to? That's the bylaw review committee proposal. Okay. So that's really, that's really the basis for a lot of this, but that isn't part of what we expect our final rule to be. No, that was. So our rule three is ending at this point. We would delete the rest of this. After public notice. So after what's currently item 11, Mandy Jo, basically that first page. It's the first page. Public notice is on there. The first two pages are the rules. Yes. And everything else is sort of background. Which I totally get. I'm just making sure that's where the cutoff is. Public dialogue is going to go under other council. So you just move the title other council meetings above public dialogue. And the executive session piece, it's being moved to where? I just moved it to agenda items. Which is a whole separate. Yeah. I noticed that it didn't say whether it was the majority of the councilors. The then present, right? At the meeting. Then present. The majority of the then councilors at the meeting. Yeah. So that's, I just moved it right now to 4.4. So the rest of it looks nice and clean now. Except for that. Public dialogue, other council meeting. So public dialogue, 45 minute. Get rid of the yes. Just the way the sentence is written. During the 45 minute period. Not minutes period. I think we added a word that caused the tense to be wrong. So instead of regularly scheduled, is that where we say regular meeting? I mean, just in terms of phraseology. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay, regular. Now that we have these terms apart, that regular is actually a real. Regular council. Meaningful word rather than just regular. Not irregular. Regular. You know, it's like it's to work on something. Oh, you're saying is public dialogue a kind of work session? No, no. In a second. Do you have a work session or a round table? Because we've got something we just want to talk. Maybe the best examples we've been talking about. So special meetings encompass. Everything. So I personally like the work sessions being specified out special meetings. This Thursday's fine. Fincom meeting that is called as a council meeting as a special meeting. This describes a particular way of handling something that I like to do. So I just wanted, when I saw that a special meeting could also be. It could be anything. Right. I have some rewording of the special meeting. And we'll put the charter section references. The charter section reference at the end is one of it. So special council meetings may be called by. So just sort of tightening the language. The president again, more of just. Or at least three counselors. And then. For any purpose was less less student there. I deleted the next sentence and sort of read. Just the rules for posting of meetings and agenda packets apply to special meetings. There's not a, there's not a separate rule that applies to special meetings. Right. So the charter is what called out the special meetings, but. I just wrote the rules for posting of meetings and agenda packets apply to special meetings. Not this instead of the 48 hours. That's. Why do we have to say that? I don't think we have to. I think we can just skip it. Because it's not different. That's the important thing. It's no different. Just because you've made a special meeting doesn't mean you don't still have to follow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then put the charter section reference at the end. So I guess it's 2.6. Not two dash six. All those. All those parentheses. And we need an extra parentheses before the little three eyes. Missed one. So can we move. So other council meetings, could we move up special meetings, which are definitely called out in charter. First, because that. Yeah. And then maybe emergency meetings and then. Public dialogues and work sessions. Right. Because it's like, these are the have to do because they're part of our charter. And the other in terms of they have actual rules and the other rules we made up and they're really good, but we made them up ourselves. As we speak. The special and emergency are called out exactly in the charter. And even do them in that order three and four. Right. So emergency as written does not conform with our charter. And so just lift the language. So I've got the language. The first sentence should read the president or vice president. If the president is unavailable may call an emergency meeting, which shall comply with the general laws comma or the vice president. If the president is unavailable, not in the charter. Town manager can't he's got to find the president or the vice president if he wants an emergency meeting. So I'm assuming some other charters say it's either the president or the town manager. Comma which shall comply with the general laws. Could we could which is also part of the charter. Can we break this into more than one emergency meeting. Can we stop there and then the other part. I know the chart. I know what the chart says, but we didn't lift the other language directly from the charter, which says, which shall be designated an emergency. Yeah. That's not in the charter. And so we want to add something to it would be something we add right the charter. We have to have the charter. The charter allows the president or the vice president. In the president's absence, the wording I gave was the rewording for like normal language versus the charter language, which is slightly more wordy. Yeah. So I don't think so. I think that because if you look at the actual chart, because here's what I'm trying to get at. You can't call anything an emergency just because you feel like it. There are generally when you say posted and conducted in accordance with general laws, the general laws also talk about what constitutes an emergency, not just how to post and how to do minutes. So there are people who tried to call things emergencies. We have local communities that have called emergencies. They're not emergencies. It's not true. Just felt the emergency like to them. So I like the fact that in the charter, it said shall be designated an emergency by the town council president under 2.64. I think that makes it really clear that it's not just, oh crap, we forgot to do something. That's not an emergency. I remember the bylaw review committee member in the very first meeting, they had an emergency petition. That's emergency measure. That's slightly different. Emergency measure. That's not a meeting. So an emergency meeting. So the charter says emergency meetings which shall be designated an emergency by the town council president or the vice president in the absence of the president shall be posted and conducted in accordance with the general laws. So the conducted is the, you have to comply with all of the what can be an emergency meeting. 2.64, page 6. So I'd like to capture some kind of the designated emergency by that. Instead of call. Rather than just Paul says, we really need to do this in a hurry. And Lynn says, okay. It's like no, it's an emergency. The president or the vice president president is unavailable may designate and call an emergency meeting. Whatever. Designate. What I know that I know the phrasing doesn't quite scan. Yeah. Charter to that. I just figured we should make it a little more better than the charter legalistic. May designate an emergency and call. Yeah. My designate and call an emergency meeting. Yeah. And then I have the clause which shall comply with the general laws. Which is slightly different than what the charter says, which is posting in charters. Post it and conduct it. I just like everything just needs to comply. You just need to comply with it. I think that's good. It's basically telling you, you have to go and look to see if you're compliant. The meeting shall be filed. Yeah. Yeah. We don't need any of it. And different states have different roles and different communities may have tacked on things. Right. That's what the basic rules are. That's so that you all know that you didn't do that. And then, and then you've got your public dialogue that works. Yeah. So now the order makes special. Makes a little more sense. Yeah. And it's on, when it's online, this right now. It sometimes does get confused and say, we've halted sinking kind of thing. And then sometimes it seems to lose the last section. And other times it doesn't lose it. This last part, I don't know what number it is now, public notice. First of all, does it belong under other council meetings if we're going to use it? It should be up before other council meetings if we're going to use it. But do we need it? We don't need it. Because it's just national. Yeah. Which part? The public notice about council meetings shall be posted with the clerk. It's just... Oh. Yeah, I thought that was already gone. We just don't need it. I think it was in maybe two sections and we deleted the first section maybe. Nothing that was in here was wrong. It was just now we have a different lens to view it through. And we realize what things we can get through. And then the rest of all the stuff that we...all the options and extras were just gone. That's our 20 minutes. So we're moving to... We finished that one in the 50 minutes? Yeah. That's just too more to do. We finished it and I just have to come back and phrase that. It apparently just... The internet's down. I have very little access to the public. Don't close it. So don't close it. Just don't close it. Just leave it there. So then it's committees... I have committees downloaded, but no one else is going to be able to read it. I have it downloaded. Like you said, mine's like hanging on it. Nothing. So I don't know whether I have it or not, but I've got everything downloaded. So we could do committees or we could do legislative process. It's under intro to pilot policy and bylaws. Which do people want to start with? Legislative process. Okay. It's under intro policy and bylaws. I got close to the mic. I don't have that word policy on it. I have intro and reading bylaws and other measures. Yeah, that one. There's... It's under the intro policy folder and that's version one. The word policy isn't in the folder title, but it's in your version. And the working title of the actual rule is legislative process. So we've completely changed all sorts of things. Making it confusing. It evolved because it used to be like two or three different sort of sections in our outline and we're evolving it to one section. Merci. Thank you. So... Kathy had some... You had some highlights you added to me that nothing's changed, right? You just highlighted sections you wanted to talk about. And the yellow highlights are actually sections I thought we should talk about. Because they had massive decisions. So we started at the very top. Yes. I'm giving us 30 minutes. Yeah, or less. Let's try 30. So we're on the introduction of bylaws and other measures section. Can you bullet point it? Could be bullet pointed. We need to decide whether we would want bullet points or whether we want little A, Bs and Cs when we get to final decisions. Yeah, it can be. I don't know. So I'll initially just throw bullet points on. You know what I mean? Each of those should be a bullet point. I think each paragraph that I had would be a bullet. So there would be three bullets instead of three paragraphs. Or was Alyssa one... I was actually saying proposed bylaws and other measures. In writing, limited to one subject clearly stated in the title, bear the name of the sponsor in the form necessary for final adoption. I would break it into those four like little arrows or bullet points or whatever. Because that way it's a checklist. It's got to have. Oh, okay. Limited to one subject that's clearly stated in the title. So one, two, three, four. Shall be. So proposed bylaws and other. Shall be. And then bullet points there. So you can see at a glance all the things you need to at least start. And then this. It's on paragraph then. Okay. Yeah, we can figure out, you know, again, bullet points, letters, little numbers, whatever. Arrows, cute little boxes, whatever you want. Final penalties must be bylaws. The one I had highlighted was the... Do we want to say that proposed bylaws need to include a statement of authority for the council to act referencing either the charter or MGL. That would be smart, right? It was in some, it wasn't in some. That's why it's highlighted. Like it's not a charter requirement. It's not a charter requirement, but it seems like a really smart way of doing business. Okay. So we'll leave it in. So does that suggest that we can't do something on our own? So we just have to cite somewhere that allows us to make that bylaw. So charter section, it would be like 2.2 or something. Last night I thought it was really good on Meg's where you said pre-petition allows any individual to bring something. So she's bringing a policy idea to set up a whole committee. You brought a new committee. You could cite the broad... It's essentially you should cite the broad power of the council, but you have to use a reference. So is there... Give me an example of something we couldn't do, something that was against the law. So you're saying that's... We would not be able to reorganize the government structure in town, because that's set specifically to the charter. We can't say conservation and planning is now with DPW as one fell swoop. Right. That's the town manager's duty under the charter. Well, we couldn't... With this MGL, some things are set up following the state law. Yeah. You can change... Certain things. Okay. All right. I get it. Right. We can't mandate a new position like a new recycling coordinator. We can't tax the land that you may have. There are certain things we can't do. Even though we have broad powers we don't have. That broad. Okay. All right. I got it. Sorry. Sorry. That's the blue is added. This is the blue. And I'll just read that. I didn't send it to everyone. Yeah. So it's not in what some people are seeing. Okay. I sent an idea to Mandy as the author. Anyway, I... And it was actually triggered because of the proposal we saw last night. That the council may establish the work or study group to consider a new measure that determines that the issue is sufficiently complex to warrant analysis of alternative approach. So I was trying to write up somebody that this isn't... We're going to talk about it tonight and again in two weeks. We're actually going to give it to a group. And it doesn't have to be of the council. So I didn't... You know, I... My multiple examples was the marijuana group that was formed that had select board and other people. Yeah. I guess my question was, is this... Before a measure is presented to the council, like the marijuana was a group to sort of create the measure. Right. So is your proposal a... Is it four things that haven't been created yet that we no need created, but don't necessarily fall into our standing committees or might not just want to be counselors? Or is it when transportation advisory committee might come up with a bylaw that they're proposing we adopt for smart streets or something? And it... I know where to put it. Because it could be, someone brings us a great idea, but we can't... We've got to think a long time on it. You know, and we want to have a way of doing it. Is it better in the committee section with the ad hoc committees? Because to me, I see that as like the ad hoc committee stuff and your select committee proposal and stuff like that. I saw somewhere else in Wadedown when you called citizens of the work of city government through committees and things like that. How can we engage people? Okay. You've been creating quick ad hoc things and the main thing I wanted is something that is broader. Yeah. So we're actually bringing in a whole bunch of people who are counselors if we need to. Yeah. And that was my one concern about... Well, one of several concerns about what was proposed last night is I think the group you mentioned... Yeah. So let's figure out a way to move that to the committee. Okay. Yeah. And like that. And I highlighted the second paragraph, the original second paragraph of this referral, which is the sort of automatic referrals section that I felt we should highlight and potentially discuss. I came up with some wording and the intention of this wording, and I have some changes to it, but the intention of this wording was when something comes in, the president can say this is obviously finance or this is obviously GOL or this is obviously CRC. This is an appointment. We need to send this to appointments and just say I am referring it to... And maybe it's multiple committees. We've got standing committees. I'm sending it directly on. No. I was going to say that was a quick half hour. But the president can do that, but if the president does do that, the president has to report to the council on that referral. Yeah. When? At the next regular council meeting. That works. But the president can also say I don't know or maybe... And the president can't refer to a town multiple member body automatically. Right. Only to a council committee. Only to a council committee. And so if the president maybe thinks it needs to go to a multiple member body instead of a council committee or isn't sure maybe which committee or multiple committees or what the council might do because it's not quite automatic, the president brings it up at the next regular council meeting for a vote. Because when it comes to finance stuff, we're always going to shunt it over. It makes sense to me. And appointments we've already agreed to automatically get shunted. Should get shunted. We have a few things where we know where it's going. We just know. Then I get to the whole gray area which we booted around last night. Okay. Does it go to a committee at all? Or is it a full council discussion? Right. Just the may choose to automatically or may choose to place. It feels like to do it automatically without even the council. The council would have knowledge. So let's back up for a second. So we've already agreed as a council that appointments go to appointments. We are probably going to agree after last night's discussion that finance stuff goes to planning arts although we didn't quite have a vote yet. And again, it's pretty straightforward. But what is it that the president, because I did like the project, what is it that the president gets that we haven't gotten that she's referring? So I understand that we like with the finance thing I said, you know, we don't want to delay that when that thing came in. But see we didn't all see that that thing from the school committee came in until it was in our packet. Right. So if it had come in email, which it used to, and said you guys are going to have to act on this because the school committee acted on it, the president could then say in an email theoretically, I've referred this to finance because their next meeting is tomorrow and our next council meeting isn't for two weeks. But so what is she getting that we wouldn't know she was sending away? So in theory of the appointments. So I wouldn't have wanted, so how could, yes, how could we prevent her from sending that away? That's a good point. I hear that. We wouldn't want that one to be sent. Right. Correct. So a carte blanche may do it seems too broad. Specific kinds of things that we've already decided on some place. Well, so I guess one of my thoughts was, and I don't know, I get the carte blanche and how do we get that discretion in a way that's not too strict? How do we give some discretion in a way that isn't too strict so that we end up seeing a bunch of, you know, we're four months in, I have a feeling at some point we're going to get a lot of requests to do stuff. Some of which, and for example, and this is something GOL hasn't done, all those resolutions that we've been passing in theory have by our charge needed to go to GOL. Not a single one of them has gone to GOL. It's something GOL has to discuss as to whether we're going to remove that portion from the charge because it's not going there. But if you've got things like that, or finance committee has a change to their charge, can they send that if it really is just basic? Can they send it directly to GOL? Does it need to come through the council for a vote? And that's not something that's necessarily so obvious like an appointment, but appointments, I don't necessarily agree that the council's voted that all appointments automatically go. I don't remember whether we have or not. Well, we said that we don't have to have a council meeting to vote. To vote, you know. But I think we need to give that discretion to someone to move our processes along so that things can happen. And it could be things like the East Street School where the question was does finance look at it or not. It's on an agenda, and we don't have many examples, but something could come. It might be appropriate for two different committees, finance to look at the financial aspects. I don't know. And I don't know what... No, yeah, no, I get it. You as the committee of GOL, yeah. No, and our committee will be dealing with the council charges to conform. Yeah, no, we'll be slowly going through those. So what's stopping? So maybe we look at this from a different standpoint. And one of the things that, of all the important things people just said that jumped out. So there was nothing stopping finance committee. That's what I'm trying to get at. There's nothing stopping finance committee from, in theory, taking the time to have already sent their revised charge to GOL without the council having to decide that it needs to go to GOL. So do we believe as a council that the only way things can get to committees is if this body says, and that's why this body says or the exception to finance issues that the schools send us that we have to do a thing to or choose not to that needs to be advised to the council which we all know needs to go through finance committee. Or like we said at the beginning when I say appointments, I mean the appointments that the town manager have to be acted on within X number of days, we did agree as a council that we didn't have to have a separate town council meeting to say now appointments needs to deal with that. It's that appointments is now unnoticed because he's filed it with the clerk and with the town council. He doesn't have to file it at a meeting. He's filed it with the council and we have to act on it. But when it comes to and so we might want to call those two things out but for everything else isn't it in fact discretionary already that if I at outreach want to ask finance something or want to ask governance something, can't I just do that? I mean do I have to wait for the whole council to tell finance committee that now is the time to send it off to GOL to do the thing? I mean I know that seems like a small example but it actually is. I mean in terms of does this stuff really have to cycle through the council? That's not what it is. Right and so how do you just give that discretion? And what's the downside so looking at it from that standpoint like it's a charge thing, it's like stupid for us to spend our time as a council deciding whether or not you need to fix it before we vote or after we vote right that's a waste of time. But so that was straightforward but like something like last night's proposal. So when last night's proposal first the last night's proposal from Meg about that she presented that a lot of people were done for the team act that's now called something else. We all knew about that proposal so it wasn't a secret right it came to all of us and we didn't know when it was going to show up on an agenda. Was there anything stopping any of our council committees from saying we're going to post this as an agenda item because we want to talk about this without having been given authority by this town council to do so because I think that's part of the referral issue is if the president can send it to us without the full council's thing can we in fact ourselves as committees decide that? Well I think it depends on how people decide it. It's different so could that one I could see that we see an interesting idea and our committee wants to talk about it. Are we allowed to do that without it? Are we allowed to do that without it being referred to us? That's five in our case it's going to be five people talking about it. So it starts to get... I would say personally I would say yes. It is okay for that. It would be okay as long as the committee reports on that they've put it on their agenda. In this case it's not the president taking it off the council agenda it's the committee saying interesting idea. I guess I don't see the difference between the committee deciding it and the president just saying hey that's an interesting idea and sending it off to the committee. That's what I'm trying to get at in terms of that discretion level. I'm already saying it's acceptable for the committees to just take it on themselves then why wouldn't it also be acceptable for the president to say you can think about this if you want and then the committee could say uh-oh we ain't touching that until the council tells us we're doing it or the committee could start working on it. I mean this is you just jumped over the council and I would have hated to not have. But you can jump over the council right now. But if the committee can pull it in themselves isn't that also jumping over the council? What's the difference between the president saying the committee look at it and the committee saying hey we're gonna just take this on. But GOL has had it been sort of waiting and so GOL has for a while had it on the future agenda items because it seemed to be for some GOL members a GOL potential GOL issue that fell within GOL's charge but we were concerned about this exact thing. Can we take it up without a council referral or not partially because when GOL reported out to the council that GOL was thinking of looking at the structure of committees in general in the town because we believed it was part of our charge and we reported out that we were going to start that long process we got a lot of pushback from the council and some of GOL members were confused at that pushback because they thought it fell firmly within GOL's charge to take up that issue if they thought it was necessary and so I think it does go to can committees do it on their own can the president when someone emails the council and say you know the president if I'll take the other thing there's a what could be considered a transportation advisory committee thing a request from a member to consider reducing speed limits within the core of town by five miles an hour to a maximum of some certain to me it seems like that's a TAC thing and we as a council would have to refer to a multi-member body but if the new community resources committee looks at that it comes into the whole council and CRC says hey we can look at that why can't they without it coming through the council if they think it's worth their time can't the president say hey we have a committee that deals with that it's funny I'm having a different reaction to some things coming in there's not a council committee so I sit and talk about it I have a different reaction to that that the rest of us don't the committee is making a judgment that it doesn't need talked about by the full council before it goes to the committee too in a sense well I don't know whether they're making that it just is on the council agenda if they can see it's not on the agenda no they can't they don't have any idea the committee doesn't know whether it's slated for three agendas away or not I mean and that was when the committee in GOL brought some of this up I kept saying partially because I am vice president and know some of agenda items the president intends to bring it to the council the president intends to but most many committees and I have been pushing for the town manager to the president to release the planned agenda items months out the council doesn't know whether it's on an agenda in three months or two months because we have such full agendas and it hasn't made it on yet until there's time doesn't mean there's not a plan it doesn't mean there isn't a plan to bring it up but we would not be privy to that plan and so if somebody comes and asks us about something whether it's on the phone in an email to the whole town council shows up at public comment and that particular committee says that sounds pretty cool I'm sure at some point that committee would check in with the president to see what was going on but I don't think they do a full stop unless we want to tell them that's what I'm getting at if we want to say that the president can't do that maybe similarly we want to say that committees can't do that committees can't do things unless they've been referred to them we sort of have that conversation around the different iterations of CRC are you doing stuff on your own organically or are you only doing the stuff we the council tell you to do and this partly comes back to that but it has the added layer as you said one person deciding where it goes and is what they're saying more if the president more informally saying I don't know when we're going to get to this but if you want to shop it out to so and so feel free or are they saying you are a signed committee to work on this it's a very different kind of referral like Brian will versus I don't know when we're going to get to it if you want to I ain't stopping it so where does that what they have is ordinance and I put two financial measures and appointments I called out in this draft and the governance one somewhere I think I called out governance but not as an automatic referral it doesn't go to community resources our licenses go to board of license commissioners Northampton may not have a board of license commissioners it's a different reality so the two I called out were that we as a council can act until they've been considered by those committees it wasn't automatic referral I called them out as if you look at financial measures all measures authorizing a loan levy of a tax or the expenditure of money with the exception of annual reports shall be voted on by the council only after they have been considered by the finance committee and then I mirrored that language with statements made by the town manager confirmation of appointments shall be voted on by the council only after they've been considered by outreach communications so it's not really they shall be automatically referred we couldn't it's just they have to consider that it's kind of a converse it's the converse since that has to happen couldn't it just happen more organically rather than having to sit through this meeting and being told it's going to happen when we all know it's going to happen but then are we going to limit it to that or are we going to give somebody a judgment call or are we going to in fact be inspired by all of this to say nobody has judgment calls and we don't let anything happen in the committee that hasn't been referred by the council I mean I think we have to give some if we want to more efficiently manage our council meetings with respect to referrals we have to give someone discretion so it's specific criteria and including that any referrals made get noticed to the council that the council gets told about that I think that's extremely important that no one can be making a referral without the full council being told that that happened because then any council member at that moment could say I moved to reconsider that referral I would like to have a discussion on whether that should be referred to that committee is that the right one you can look at that list of referrals that maybe the president made and it can be a wait I'm not sure that was correct can we discuss that one if we're making the president report that back at the next regular council meeting we're only two to three weeks away from that referral at most there might have been a meeting of a committee at that referral but there might not have been already and chances are they wouldn't have spent a huge amount of time on it and they're not if they've got concerns themselves right so yeah because the advantage there it can start that process for the stuff that seems so automatic and for the other ones either the committee gets the referral and says hey I'm not sure we should be considering this we're coming back to the council for a formal discussion before we start it or the councilors can see it and say I don't know whether this was right to do how just because we spoke for it last night it could have happened that so let's use that example because that was pretty fraught it could have happened that so we all saw it months ago none of us knew when it was going to show up on the agenda because we don't have that list of agenda items which we all wanted at one point or another so we didn't know when would this ever come up we knew it would come up some day somehow under what you're suggesting it would have been okay for the president to say hey I don't know when we're going to get to this but if you feel like you want to take a crack at it because every chance that it might get referred to you at some point in the future feel free or not not directing you, not forcing you to do it or if Meg had come directly to your meeting and said I bet you guys are going to be the ones working on this eventually would you please help me work on this and you could have chosen to do it or not and either way in that second case USGOL would have reported out at the next town council meeting potentially, hey we started working on a thing in case you were all wondering where that happened or conversely if the president sent it to you would like you said I want to wait and hear from the full town council before we spend any effort on this person from the public is doing it they get to choose who they want to present it to government committee that's fine but if they want to present it to the whole council I think it should come to the whole community so that's one criteria where the committees get sent and then the regular ones like finance we definitely know is going to go so there the president can make the call and push it along with ordinances we need to have in the rules that the president does make those calls on if we want only certain things it needs to be in these there are three different things I'm seeing one is where it's regular we know for sure finance there the president can make it committees can reach out to each other let me ask another one we don't have it yet but the zoning subcommittee of planning board at some point will always make referrals make proposals will come in with proposals for zoning by law changes do they automatically go to CRC under CRC or do they have to come to a full council before CRC can even take them up what if it's a renumbering of the zoning by law I mean to some extent right can we leave some discretion associated with that to say zoning subcommittee needs to adopt some new national law that has a new definition and that that can go to CRC directly so how do we leave that discretion how do we put that in there to make it clear what's big and what's not routine and small but it delays and takes time and isn't necessary to send it through it makes them that now remember that they're going to have hearings at some point so it may be that it may be that the zoning subcommittee wants to talk to the CRC before they go down the road of the rest of it there's a lot of discretion to do there's a lot of cleanup there's a lot that you're bringing to us is purely substituting some words but you should flag anything where there had to be a decision here because it could have gone through and so it should be flag which is why I refuse to accept their work if they had done that we could have gone through and said oh these are fine but it must be a way of distinguishing this and as Darcy said we probably are spending more time on this than we need to because if it's minor editing it makes all the difference so it's not just rounding your views but if zoning subcommittee came to the town council president and said we think these things are minor and this thing is more substantive can we just take the minor things run by CRC make sure they're in format that's right how do you figure out where that is so you have the council has to vote on that proposal no matter what the question is can just the council see that before it gets referred to the CRC or some other committee for the pros and cons analysis for that impact analysis or not I mean I would like to have when you try to rewriting this to say for minor edits it could go the president has discretion to send it to a committee that has you know that is in the IAB folder you know so minor we only need minor I'm fixing it and then that committee still has to re-bring it back and they're bringing the pros and cons and because they're the we only have a committee that was just formed so here's my question about what's a technical you know at what point is anybody allowed to work on these things and so I think I understood you to say Darcy if it's a simple thing then it doesn't take long for the whole council to just refer it anyway so what's the big deal and that way it goes to the council here's my big deal so an actual change maybe not a 40 page change but a one page change to a zoning bylaw that actually is a substantive change I don't think it makes any sense for the full town council to look at that in any level of depth before we have CRC look at it and I can guarantee you that if it shows up on the full council agenda we will not be disciplined enough to say all our questions need to go through CRC first I can guarantee that certain people will say oh we're going to look at the full bylaw okay well I'm concerned about paragraph 3 and I'm concerned about paragraph 6 and I'm concerned about that and then we will not be able to just immediately say this is CRC's problem and then it comes back to us so how do we how do we ensure that we're informed but we can't we can't make other councillors not talk if it's in the full for example last night's finance committee referral I really wanted to ask a whole bunch of questions that I figure finance is going to come up with but hey it's in front of us so I've got questions about this like how much money did they ask for because we didn't see you know like and how much would MSBA cover if they do that how much are we where does it come out of our budget when we do pay for it is it a JC is it this capital line is it that I had so many questions I have a feeling finance will cover all of them when it comes back but it was hard well no but you know it's hard to not ask when you're reading a proposal for referral to not ask those questions prematurely at that point and that discussion if we trust say CRC or finance to be thorough enough it will save us time in the long run because those questions will be answered the next time it comes back so if council members have questions and looking at this coming up these are the questions coming up for me so just make sure you look into them you're deliberating at that point if you're sitting there and saying okay I have these 15 questions about the MSBA thing one person one member of the no of the finance committee you can't do that you can't send your questions privately up to the finance committee I have a make a suggestion here so the first sentence we're okay financial measures up to be the second point I'm just looking at the structure of it so the first thing after that financial measures you know why do I not have blue blue was that was her private notes no it was her private notes to not it should be below the it should be called back here's the thing so I see a paragraph that says it's called referral measures the second one's yellow it doesn't have a heading or is it had a heading in mind it has a heading in mind weird what I uploaded had a heading V1 V1 and 2019 20328 28 that's weird because what I uploaded had headings and that's where we got confused because I realized the financial thing was buried in there because it didn't have a heading but apparently there was a you have the heading and you pulled it off of that with a heading but you have the heading yeah the heading that's just weird I'll re-upload with some modifications as a V2 so weird so we can like find it because right now there's a financial you know, bolded financial measures all measures authorizing a loan blah blah blah bolded appointments shall be voted on by council only that's so weird it did seem oddly dense so weird so then someone was suggesting those two go up if I moved those up so after referrals financial measures then I would do the third measures because we've just talked about financial bylaws also that's the third one so let's hear what Kathy has to say first so I ask it the word measure has got the behind in the charter so it's a nice word because it's bylaws it's resolutions it's new policies so for other measures because we've just done financial measures we may choose to automatically or may choose to place the measures so I'm just I want to do some kind of editing that doesn't do as it can do it I'll work on some but if it followed after these two we're saying some of them are just going to move right through and then others have to have a little bit more thought to it or a technical fix whatever you want to use technical fixes minor word edit can go directly but we may then on a lot of these try to say where it's going to require a lot of analyses the council will generally refer to the committee I mean we might want it to signal that it's not supposed to be four hour discussions right that's one of our rules is that our reaction is to stop talking because it's going off to the committee is that what you're saying to provide that level of direction would that be the one hour discussion or the one minute so let me ask something else as I go back for this section financial measures and appointments right now don't include automatic referral they say that they can't be voted on until finance has come considered so should I add sentences in front that say all measures authorizing shall be automatically referred to the finance committee upon receipt or something like that because I don't know what happened took more time than needed because first it was the full council then it was two sessions of finance then it was full council with hearing and then it was and since we when we get to practically consider all of those yes we should put that into so I think I think it is important to keep the language you have or a variation of the language you have maybe Joe about confirmation will happen blah blah finance measures will happen blah blah and add the part about the moving them along because both those things are still true it's still true that you know they can only be voted on by the council after they've been considered but the council doesn't have to take a vote to send it to them so both cases are still true not just substitute one for the other and then and then the other things we said the first sentence was okay except I don't actually feel that way any measure may be referred by whom in which case I'm not sure that's just extraneous I think we are talking very specifically about how referrals will work I'm not clear that that first sentence communicates anything the town council may refer the council may refer the president of the council may refer no may vote to refer so can everyone see this except me no I'm she's on after a sentence and I'm typing on our local copies okay she's creating an actor here but I'm doing it on a local copy so you won't see it so she's changing it the council may refer just so it's clear who's referring if we need to say that sentence at all it needs to be clear any measure to council committees or town multiple member bodies off to some random other committee to not just our own council and then it's going to talk more about who else has the right okay so I will work on a re-wording of all of that and then the report back I think is what Shalini timeline some had 60 some had 45 do we want a timeline right right I didn't know that it was 60 or 45 but I wanted to have so after you figure out what it's 60 or 45 the council may have the option of extending the deadline there might be something we really wanted to think you know saying everything's going to come back in 60 days you added the the option of extending extending the deadline or have the authority to proceed in the absence of such a report so it was just not making it instead I mean a couple of options obviously you've already thought about one option would be to instead of addressing this or address it in a broad sense and then every time we make a referral say what the deadline is because we've been undisciplined about that at this point because we also know a lot of people are meeting all the time so we figured we'd figure it out soon we could put that in too though and rather than having these be the dates it's the date of whatever we said in the referral and then we can say when we refer to the council right we're sitting there and we're saying we want to hear back from you in 30 days and if they come back in 30 days and say we're not done yet then we say okay are we going to act without you or do you want another 30 days so you're suggesting a rewrite of this to say upon that the county specifies the time period for which they and they can always come back and ask for more time they just have to report which is what we can do if we have this as a default so the rule is to discipline ourselves to provide a deadline and then the rest of it doesn't need to be there so the question I have though is when things can get automatically referred then there wouldn't automatically be a deadline oh well then put a separate deadline on the automatic referrals finance committee gets something automatically referred if we don't have committees shall report back on measures referred within a certain you know if we don't have that generic it's only when the council refers something that comes with a deadline as we include it which is why I like the generic so add so I would say make it specific to automatic referrals anything that's automatically referred in fact needs a sooner update probably than anything else because we all need to know what they're doing or that they specifically wanted to do something else with it it could even be earlier than 45 so did we automatic referrals could have even shorter deadlines did we limit the automatic referrals to those three areas we haven't fully I have to work on that language or the it would it would in fact it would in fact the it would it would be the financial matters it would be appointments and it would be these minor we haven't talked about GOL getting any automatic referrals at this point although there's something down below um no bylaws shall it's another voted on bylaws shall be revoted on by the council only after considered by GOL so it's again we could somehow maybe throw in an automatic referral bylaws but but bylaws right it's not but it's the question again goes when CRC has considered that planning and zoning recommendation bylaw does it go automatically to GOL or does it have to come back to the committee the council before it goes to GOL the content I think needs to be discussed before it goes to GOL I'm using up but you know nice format but you shouldn't be fixing it a lot before we've even decided we like it because then GOL's doing work for potentially something that might not even have a chance of passage as opposed to the finance committee charge which you could have fixed that before we got it because we knew we were going to do that because it was just I don't think that would have been there was some discomfort I think that didn't you know not spend GOL I was trying to read your face but I think the negative was really as non-resonance and what was interesting is Dorothy had proposed for originally but I think that's why Pat wanted to be able to register so automatic referrals 45 days I'll come up with new language we want the option of extending any reports so it had if they hadn't reported the council has the authority to proceed with consideration of the measure and absence of the report I don't think so I think we I mean it just came from other towns I'm just not sure what it adds because I think we just if we just stick with Shao report and then not they don't have a choice and then if they haven't if they just haven't like we come back to council and we say wait why haven't we heard anything on that we have to act then their report is they have no report I mean the report is they came to no conclusion but then the council act on its own because the council could have always acted on it we're just asking them to do work for us so that we don't all have to know this is this one's not going to be ready for into the main document as a near final we live the attorney review down further because if we're trying to look at this in sort of a chronological way the notice of consideration of bylaws needs to be higher and the attorney review needs to be so the bylaw review is sort of after these referrals for the substantive policy discussion and so that's why I have them both in the same one so I'm talking about the next section where it says attorney review of bylaws and notice of consideration of bylaws I'm just trying to understand that notice of consideration to the public is going to happen well before it comes back to a final vote for the council sometime between notice of consideration and something else is when that attorney review is going to happen it's not going to be prior to prior to the final vote right but I'm saying that happens after we've notified the public about consideration of bylaws it's not going to be it's not going to be done and a GOL review might happen sometime between the first reading and the second reading too right that's what I'm trying to get at it's like if I'm trying to figure out how this how will bill becomes a law yeah I moved sections around to try and figure things like that out where you know at some point like referral was listed after notice of bylaws and I'm like what I'm like why would you like that's so you know so I tried to make it somewhat logical so I'll move it down after the public notice of consideration of bylaws those two sentences yeah although it should then probably be absences of a measure sponsor it should probably be after that too yeah just trying to think through it was hard to figure out the most logical ordering of these sections so if we're looking at the public notice of consideration generally okay I mean it's what the rule is right I mean it's what the chart is the first paragraph is the rule the second paragraph I think is MGL required based on what's said that came out of the bylaw review committee's proposals um the third one is just a general rule right that's we can waive the full reading to go to a summary so that when we have bylaw review committee's proposal to rescind and adopt new and full we don't have to sit there reading 200 pages of bylaws that we're adopting for a while um we can just do a summary of what the changes are when it's a wholesale section similar to what happened at town meeting when the bylaw proposal was like seven pages long I'm a little fuzzy maybe I should take a crack at on the notice of consideration section the first two paragraphs I'm looking again for bullet points and more guidance in terms of there's 14 days in both cases zoning bylaws have publication deadlines in newspapers um these are different things and that's not immediately obvious reading this and so maybe we bullet it out slightly differently to be all bylaws of any kind is one one approach and then zoning bylaws also have this additional or everything other than zoning and zoning but these these two don't really scan next to each other right now in terms of people understanding what to expect to see okay so counselors and the public and published what about in addition zoning bylaw amendments maybe because those requirements are slightly they're not the second paragraph doesn't completely comply with the first paragraph for you know zoning bylaws have to be read at two separate council meetings which is different than these publication requirements required by MGL and this is notice of this technically is the notice section right and so that's where I was starting to get following I'm like so shouldn't we take it out but maybe we should have it in here because it's a clearer to the public who acts went on what yeah like what to expect once you see a notice somewhere here's what you can expect to see happen next exactly but otherwise the four sort of paragraphs are okay yeah yeah it's just it's just trying to make it more user friendly user friendly okay and the absence of a sponsor and I highlighted it because is it any measure or is it just certain matters that you know we had this last night when um wasn't kushman except we we told kushman no no no I know I know so that that's part of this but my question is when writing this rule do we want this to apply to any measure or just specific things so the because this is unless this you know you have to withdraw it unless the sponsor is designated another counselor a sponsor by providing the president written notice 24 hours in advance so whatever we include in theory if there's not 24 hours notice that someone's not going to be there to talk about it on that measure and measure is very broad it gets withdrawn so do we want to limit that to sort of not you know bylaws essentially I think bylaws because if somebody wants to come and talk about the Tibet flag and then they get sick but the time is the time when they're going to raise the flag and so that hopefully they've scrambled and found somebody but if they're sick and they haven't I think we should go ahead and approve the resolution anyway yeah right that's why I highlighted this draw that what what do we really care about sponsors being there or designating and the Mayday thing we've done for decades so they don't need to come and talk about that unless they were changing it but or or we could say so what would you restrict bylaw bylaw ordinance legislation does it is that a broad you know so I'm just looking because we could do any measure not including resolutions or proclamations well but I also don't want to do the parking thing until we send out that parking thing I don't want to waste our time saying that somebody has to come and talk about their block parking right like who cares let's just put it on the consent so here's the other thing sponsoring member if we set that to sponsoring counselor make it even more clear that if the sponsoring counselor of any measure that means it's not something the public is brought to us it's something like it would have been say the ECAC that was sponsored by Darcy and Evan they weren't there it wouldn't have needed to be postponed unless they said no you can act because that's a counselor sponsoring it versus something else so maybe it's just the president shall have the discretion to withdraw the matter unless the sponsor has designated another counselor instead of being an automatic you know the president so if the sponsoring member of any measure is not pressed it's due to come before the discretion to withdraw the matter unless the sponsor has designated another let Lynn see Lynn can always throw stuff off the agenda Lynn can decide the day of can decide five minutes before the meeting that she's not actually going to hear Meg's item I mean she can literally decide and I've read this multiple times before I put it in now I'm reading again so as it's written even with member it doesn't apply to Meg's provision at all it applies only to those things brought forward by a counselor so that needs to be made clear in the heading absence of measures of we need to read so when you say sponsoring member you meant a counselor so I think they mean a counselor but now this could have been coming from a rules section where everything must have a counselor sponsor including the AEF resolution must be sponsored by a specific count in some world not in our world but maybe this is a result of sort of that type of world where everything has a this came from three different places and also was included in the bylaw review committee's draft for us it was like everywhere I think it's an attempt to prevent the council from taking up an item that a counselor has sponsored without that counselor there the question still remains yes we need to clarify that and the question still remains do we make a second rule for non-counselor sponsored items because the president always has the discussion to say no but it's also true that we have had bylaws for example at our previous legislative body that were sponsored by an individual through the petition process and we thought that night even though they were told to be there then the question was whether or not and there was mixed feelings about whether or not we should have the discussion about that item or postpone it to another time when everyone had arranged their schedules to be there at a certain time so that is different than if it's the body itself and it seems like there might be two different variations but we should probably address them because we wouldn't want in a situation where somebody has put a ton from the public and really has made this plan that they're coming and then something happens and then we say we as a council would not want the discretion I think to say we're going to act on it anyway even though you didn't show up so that would be weird similar to TMAC which was originally on the 18th and TMAC requested it be postponed so they didn't show up we could have killed it then and what would have been wrong Lynn could have because we don't have rules as president said we're still considering it that night without them without you your loss I wouldn't have agreed with that it would have felt bad but I think your point is if we don't have a rule that could happen even though we like to think that people would only use their discretion for good they might feel pressure to use their discretion so maybe we should I will draft a second paragraph that deals with one's counselors the president has to withdraw that consideration unless the counselor designates someone else 24 hours and can do it non-counselors sponsored measures coming from the public do we want to give the president discretion do we want that a shall does it have to be a counselor that is designated by the presenting member or can it be another person does it have to have I can come up with something with many different options I'm curious where people are thinking we just don't want people to feel screwed I'm wondering how much discretion do we want to allow in the rule as I'm drafting this because I can totally think of 20 different ways I could write this last night that one we talked about this already the Cushman and we acted on it anyway and so it would seem like so we don't want to not act on them that's why we're saying can we separate what it's called I'll come up with a different bullet point is there something that's like traffic requests or maybe it's but I mean the case anyway the president is going to decide those things by discretion anyway I'm not sure if this is especially for counselors to honor counselors and specifically say we cannot act if it's sponsoring counselors that makes sense but I'm not sure we need to put anything else in but it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other could we just leave the whole section out completely do we even need it for counselors then it happens that a counselor who's worked on something for a long time and it's on a particular agenda and then they are sick who's discretion who decides at that point is it a majority vote the council can always overrule the president's decision by a motion to essentially overrule I don't know what it's technically called we talked about this in our motions section or something that says that is like the council can I forget it's not that one but it's like when the president makes a ruling the counselor can say I object and I take that ruling to the council as a whole and if the majority disagrees with the president then the president's ruling goes by the wayside I forget what it's technically called that may or may not you know we're writing rules when there's going to be a gray area I also think that it is good to write maybe maybe the way we split the view we do just write the part about the counselor sponsored ones and leave the other one alone until we decide we need it because it hasn't come up and we can then say we should add a rule about that but I do like the idea because I don't want to burst your revels or anything but these 13 people are getting along really well I've been part of an elected body where people would gang up on individuals and if they couldn't be there and then at the last minute the rest of the council would have been happy to say we're screwing you over but let's start with just our counselor we'll keep it to us for now and we'll add to it later yeah exactly and until we're running late we have like three more sections here resubmission resubmission had a big choice of can someone can a motion embody if something's failed by the council can a council reconsider that resubmit that not a motion for reconsideration like a formal resubmitting of that general policy or whatever within six months generally no except if the council approves it by a certain vote so this is charter this is just general rules this is not charter this is someone else's idea the zoning I know it's a fact the other one is just a general we're not going to beat a dead horse because someone's not happy with the vote you can't keep doing it so this is so the question is majority or super majority I saw both in different options I think that kind of scans well with the planning board situation in terms of a zoning bylaw you can't bring the exact same thing back unless you convince the planning board not super majority but the planning board that it's a good idea if you have a majority of people wanting to bring it back there's no majority to vote for it yeah that's the thing you might not ever get you might get seven people that say oh we screwed that up and now we're seeing the consequences I want to bring it back but super majority might not that's why I left it yeah because if it's not a measure that needs a super majority to and I want to bring it back yeah or with a minor tweak it was one thing majority so what do these words actually mean though because if a measure has been finally rejected no motion shall be submitted unless approved well how do you approve a submission to see where I'm getting yeah no I totally see where you're getting now that you read it it is standard language that's why we have to fix it I think it contradicts what we're also putting in about reconsideration by the motion that too well so reconsideration can only happen in the next meeting the meeting that happens or the meeting after according to our rules so this would be I'm not moving to reconsider that I'm just submitting the measure again and what happens now is if somebody brought us a zoning bylaw that had been rejected and just came and put it on our plates again you have to wait two years unless you can get the planning board to agree to it and we just send it away so how do we how do we accept the idea of looking at another file you would need to move to approve the resubmission of this subject or consideration unless resubmission if you put the word resubmission and you got it resubmission is approved by majority and it's also a question of what does it mean by being finally rejected because we do have a section about what is it, measures previous that the rescission motion to rescind or motion to amend something previously adopted but that's already previously adopted so this is things that this is things that the council didn't adopt finally is because in theory if you read it at two meetings and you decide to vote at two meetings the first vote could be zero, the second vote could be passed but it's not really passed until the second vote it's not fully rejected until the second rejection and so what would that motion look like? it would be a motion to resubmit this subject matter we would have a motion that said we agree that this group this sponsor can resubmit and now it's back in place can I just say that maybe putting two-thirds makes it more serious the first time around it'll make us be more serious the first time around that we won't be as willing to reject it and knowing that it's going to face that you can't just come back in two weeks if you're going to have to get two-thirds in six months within six months I think waiting six months is enough this is to look at it again within six months after six months after six months it doesn't matter unless it's zoning because of the laws this never happens some things that if we get a lot of people resubmitting things after we've rejected it and we're going to know here it comes again my sense is for the most part people are going to bring back substantially the same thing they're going to try to figure out what the problem people have that it was because they would like a winning vote so it's substantial the word substantial in the same but substantial it is if you bring a measure that says you have to shovel your sidewalk where it's a $500 fine and then you bring it back and say no I'm changing it to a $400 fine it's the same thing so you have to wait six months or get a majority of the council to say no we're not going to make you wait six months the only other thing is could you put the zoning bylaw part first because that's the controlling the zoning bylaw that's just the way it is because otherwise when you say any measure that implies zoning bylaw is a subset the question is do we continue or do we just hold this withdrawal of measures any sponsor can withdraw and then carrying over I modified Northampton had this one and so I attempted to modify it into a more readable manner this means that if we're in the middle of something's been referred to say CRC and now we've had an election and CRC's still not ready to bring it back it automatically stays in CRC it doesn't have to be reintroduced at the beginning of the new once the new council's sworn in it's just there unless one of these four things has happened wow because that's not mentioned in here at all that's that's what it means that that's why this exists that's my understanding as to why you would have this but I based on the words that are written here so you're saying that would be the purpose but the other purpose would be that two people wanted to come up with a committee and then decided one of them decided no I don't want to do it anymore they could take their name off of it you're saying that I was on carry over you're on withdrawal I didn't know wonder you were so confused so we didn't get through our business and the new council's been elected what needs reintroduced or what just stays in those it's still on it our default is it's still there it doesn't have to be reintroduced why would that be true we can choose you're saying it's an option this is what this says that the default is it stays there this four things happens it's already failed the first of two required votes it's received a negative recommendation from GOL which like I said I modified it from Northampton so I put the right one or the council says no we're not letting this carry over the new council's going to have to bring it forward again or the sponsors that brought it aren't even going to be in it so we'll have 100% turnover with the council but it shouldn't come back as if it's a brand new thing be able to have the discretion to continue the discussion and if new people come so it would be the old council saying no we're not letting this carry over to the new one or if the sponsors of the measure are no longer going to be on the council then it doesn't go through there's plenty of easy ways to not have it carry over it's also a recognition of at the end of a if you think of it at the end of the lame deck session hey what's still out there and do we want it still out there it's almost a clean up of this here's the things that are still out here and yeah we're going to let these go through but we're not going to let these we're just going to kill these now and December 2nd to essentially clean up yeah not necessarily number two the negative recommendation no no the whole thing in general we could delete the whole thing shall not apply no I'm just saying the first paragraph so the second paragraph says here's how you don't carry something over how you prevent something from being carried over it will carry over unless unless we affirmatively act to not carry it over right yeah so I think we need that the default is carry over right and it requires an action to stop the carry over right so yeah the automatic carry over part because I didn't you would just want it to be true no matter what you want it to carry over is that what you're saying would remove the second section because you don't want to give the council the power the power to not have something carry over you want to say that you're stuck with whatever it is moving forward because it's already there because you can always reject it yes and have we decided that we're having two required votes so we can think about it and come back and discuss it in terms of the vote the votes we need to read the charter the charter requires two readings I think some people interpret that as two votes for bylaws and others interpret it as two readings one vote Northampton takes two votes Northampton takes two votes on nearly everything though much different than what the charter requires the charter requires two readings for bylaws but there's so few exceptions there are two votes on resolutions there are two votes on resolutions there are two votes on proclamations there are two votes on like yo there are two votes on almost everything they don't have to vote twice on that yeah that's about the only exception practically and so when we finally have to do a bylaw we're going to have to make a decision or we can determine in the rules the two votes would not violate the charter it would almost clarify the charters required two readings if I go back to what the intention was I don't think we ever discussed actual votes twice but the intention was almost what we've already been doing with other things which is you need you should not ever bring a bylaw up at a meeting and at that first meeting vote to adopt it and make it final at that meeting you need to give the people and the council time to think about it discuss it come back discuss some more because people after that first one you might get the opposite coming in and I don't think as a charter commission we ever discussed do you need to vote at both I think it was you have to have it considered at both meetings but not necessarily voted at both give yourself time to think about it maybe just because I think it makes sense just dies on the mind talk about it think about it come back so there isn't a current requirement to vote twice on the bylaws it's just red twice so I can find some towns do a new proposal comes up you can figure out what you want to vote on but you're not doing it the first time or are we better off to give the council the discretion to say do we want to vote on this this time or do we want to go back and think about it so we want to insist that we can't vote on it the first time bylaws can't be but other things although we often might think I'd like to think about this more do we want to force ourselves to have to wait I'm not sure we want to force ourselves to wait but sometimes it's like because everyone is ready to vote that's the right to postpone though which applies to any measure actually really like that a rush to vote second guess so you have to be able to define what you're doing what measures it would apply to right so we wouldn't do it in transformations I mean it is more that how do we carve it out so we're setting up a new committee setting up a new committee setting up a new subcommittee so say everybody does the ground work to set up a new committee a couple people have started working on it together they've gone to GOL to say are we kind of on the same we're getting it right in terms of the format they're like well it hasn't been referred to us yet but yeah that looks about right and we've all talked about it in a general sense in some way when you actually then bring that committee charge you're saying you can't vote on that committee charge first time out I'm saying that before all of that so we were well how much we were talking about the committee before the committee charge has been brought to us I mean that was a shocker so you would count that so you would count that first discussion as being a one even though you didn't have the document in front of you exactly right and we didn't even have charge documents for them so it's not two readings it's two discussions yes that's what you're trying to get right you don't have to read the charge twice you've discussed it in some sense I'll come up with something there too or you've discussed your policy in some sense but you don't have to see the actual final policy twice I'll come up with something you know but we're separating it from a bylaw which in its entirety needs to be read twice or dispensed with the reading of a policy proposal or a committee could be a different format in those two different meetings but it would be a second discussion okay so I'll come up with something the highlighted green is just things that were sort of thrown into this group of three rules before I combined it into one rule that I didn't think belonged in this group of three rules but probably belonged somewhere I think emergency measures are already we discussed that today but there's two others oh measure so this has to go somewhere but yeah like I said I think green has to go somewhere but not in legislative that might be legislative okay that's I was probably reading it as emergency meeting is probably what I was reading okay because we think it's an emergency okay so I will do that one into this rule the two paragraphs in front of that motions still be stated in the quantum of vote needed for passage specified by the president prior to a vote I was thinking that might go to voting yeah that doesn't need to be but I would like to carry it over yes well like I said things that I thought needed and then the president may order a vote on a measure pending before a failure and listen make sure you're voting because we've already read it yeah and now these two things are being added to it I don't remember whether they're in that section or not I didn't look but if they're not I'll get them in I'll get them in if they're not okay emergency measure fits somewhere around withdrawal of measures something we'll come up with yes so I'm good since I'm set up taking minutes so we got to council meetings legislative process I already saved it as something and I can save it as something else I just saved it so that I was clear no I've already done that but I've just just showed it but I can rename it anything else next meeting needs to be committees it's one of the ones we haven't discussed at all the first thing we're doing next yeah and this section is now officially being called and if I would be okay if people like I haven't printed out but this would be legislative process I can rename the folders you could just go ahead and give it it's you know next time maybe you could go ahead and make it unless we you know we've got sections that's why I haven't been numbering because we weren't sure so we've got organization meetings council meetings I think we're close to final with council meetings and Alyssa does the citations here so we should come back to it because we made enough changes in them so I've got meetings committees legislative process but first is committees and then I just do a new one first so committees we haven't discussed at all that we do legislative process is the revisit that's what we were just working on we're visiting policy policy introduction and then we will have we will have done sometimes we would like agenda just maybe go mentally try to you know just do first committees then when we haven't done it so are we going to yeah oh sorry go yeah I was thinking this is the check we've got all the sections we need and we're getting rid of the executive session section that outline because we threw it somewhere else yeah there are ten sections ten rules ten rules with lots of little subjects plus two appendices two appendices the values appendices and the committee charges so don't the charges so right yes we have to go through and make sure we don't need more so when I'm looking at our share point ideally I am spending time on committee what's currently called council committees I want to make sure I match the titles we just went over alternatively known as legislative process policy introduction what is it called it's intro policy it's what it's called in that folder and what do you really want to call it legislative process legislative process and then meetings just final edit on that so intro and reading by laws and other measures that mainly I just have a next week is the eighth I believe I might be here for the meeting in the morning we haven't decided when we're actually driving so I don't think we're going to drive till the afternoon on Tuesday because in theory we could if we're super efficient at the next meeting to get through the renewables that's just the aspiration I think it might be possible so it does keep share point does keep histories and versions when you hover over I found this out so hover if you go to I don't know just this ROP structure if you go to let's see show actions is that where it was version history and then it pops up like this one apparently only has one version but if we go into like organizational meeting so what it considers version is every time we open it do you think what are you hovering over do the three little dots for show action get the menu option of version history and some of them I'm trying to find one that would have a version history the three dots just before it says the column says modified like here's one version history so you hover over these little three little dots not on an actual document on an actual document yeah some of those initial proposals will have large numbers of version histories okay so let me ask a question you asked I have a question okay mine's probably simpler so looking at this alright this is under agendas and posting a section that you're all done with which document am I supposed to be reading the Latin even though it has a different title than the others the fact that it says before and it's the most recent date means that should be the finalist finalist version yes but it's called something slightly different because it's called agenda order now instead of agendas and posting okay so always look for just the most recent thing and assume that there's only one document that matters unless meetings or council committees council committees is the only one that we still need to look at more than one document and the example you just gave of agenda just right now I have I downloaded the one you're looking at and we moved in executive sessions so I'm going to upload it in code okay but there should but the only place that I should need to other than understanding the history the only place that I should need to be comparing documents side by side basically is under council committees there might be multiple documents in there that I should be looking at but you've now gotten far enough along that as long as I'm just familiar with the last version and council committees may just have one in there because we haven't discussed it so it was where we were all dropping in ideas it has initial proposals 4.1 dated yesterday I did some work just cleaning it up good then so there's not a bunch of separate sections but then cool because that's just the council committee one that's an easy one in comparison to all these other anyone know if you're in a document then you don't want it so like if I wanted to call if I wanted to fix agenda right now in real time and I wanted to be the father I can't just I don't think you can rename it and save it you can't duplicate it no yeah yeah why not why not just save as a copy you can't in you can't you in SharePoint you're not allowed you there's no option to save a copy do you want it in the cloud do you want it on your computer where are you at when you're trying to save actually opened it in Word online not the full version of Word so I guess it depends on where you're at no right and then it says save as and you can put it on your computer or your own it's letting me you can do it online save online save a copy and then it'll let you rename it right so maybe okay I tried to save it within SharePoint and it went out to a cloud it's in Word online and then all I know is when I tried to do it I got so frustrated I mean maybe it does let me see here I opened this okay try can you save that and now save as a copy online executive session do it with like a v2 or something I just did that and it didn't work did it work? I was just in Word online so you have to open it from Word as line you can't do it through SharePoint you have to have it fully open you have to have it fully open rather than like any normal where I could like click and like duplicate exactly rename you have to open it but you don't have to open it all the way in the full version of Word you can just do it from Word online to do it yes but that's exactly the problem normally you can right click on stuff and save it as stuff but it won't and duplicate it and move it and yeah have we finished? yes so if I could have a motion to adjourn moved we have a second it is 1228 I wish it was 11 something 1228 and this meeting is adjourned