 Tell us about Domcon. How did that come about? What is that for someone who may not know about it? Domcon is a professional and lifestyle domination convention. I started in 2004. And it's held twice a year. It's been in Los Angeles for the first 16 years. We did 12 years in Atlanta and this will be our fourth year in New Orleans. But back in 2000, when the internet had come around and I was actually on an internet and had chat rooms and things, I was in the Yahoo group for BSM and one day I tried to log on and I couldn't get on. So I emailed the moderator and so on to have a problem. And they said, oh that's because you could throw it out of the group. And she said, well you're doing professional and this is not a program group. This is for lifestyle people. I said, I mean lifestyle is for a while longer, but it wouldn't happen. And I felt at that point, most people don't get in a program and they pick up at one day and go, hey, I think I'll do that as a career start. They'll come out of the lifestyle there and you know something about it. And Belcon was something that I wanted to kind of bridge those two communities together and bring a better understanding of lifestyle and the professional. People told me it wouldn't work for years. And actually when I first thought about it, I was in an event in New York and somebody was putting together a domination committee in San Francisco and they invited me. And I thought, oh somebody's already doing it. So I kind of put it in the back burner and I went in 2002 for this event. And I won't mention any months or anything, but I knew there wasn't going to be another one. It was not good. So I came back and started working on the concept of DomCon, which I assume was going to be a large away event. And a month into promoting it, a big human national event, people from all over the country, wanting to come. But the next day or so it just never happened. The pros are going to try to one up each other. You're not going to get in cooperation. Two communities aren't going to come together. The pros aren't going to want to share business secrets. But they did. They came to DomCon and it was wonderful. And the chatter after DomCon was that the lifestyle people were saying, wow, I met a lot of these pros and they're real people. They really are doing this because they love it. And the pros who were, a lot of them were looking at it as what were above the life of their copyist. You know, these lifestyle people were teaching classes and I learned some stuff. They didn't know what they're doing. So it brought mutual respect between the two lifestyles, a little bit better and it breached that, which was my goal. But then we also have people from the fetish community and the leather community that's coming in as well. So it really brought all aspects of the community. And we're still going on that. But it's an international event now. We're looking at doing Sydney, Australia in 2020. And in Europe maybe 2021-22. So we're growing. We've got actually codoms that will be representing every continent, except for Antarctica. And there's more. We've even got a codom coming from South Africa next month or in May for DomCon LA. And it's embraced it. It's about classes. We have 50 plus classes and we're challenged. We have two days industry-only classes. We have socials all weekend long. We have like 70 vendor booths. We've got a playing party. We've got a fetish club, an awards ceremony. It's continuing to grow. It's a five-day event. Where are you looking in Europe? Well, we're actually hoping for either Berlin or London. We're going to get Sydney grabbed out first and then move over there. When are you going to Sydney? The days are still being negotiated. I don't know if I'll be meant to wait. Right now it looks like it's mid-year on 2020. Okay. Well, tell us about your work with LA Leather Coalition in Erotic City. Because you took a very interesting and unique attitude regarding joining Leather Coalition. Well, actually, the LA Leather Coalition reached out to me in 2005 and actually asked me to come in and become a member. Even though I had been in the Leather community as far as unofficially, you know, with being mentored and things, that I wasn't involved in an official or organized manner at that point. I went to their meetings and they asked me to join. And my thing was that, what can we bring to you? I never asked them what can you do for us. It was always, it was like, okay, sanctuary, and Mr. Sian comes in to the Leather Coalition. How do we benefit you? What can we do? And they said, well, you've, you were aware of Don Con. And I was nominated for like five top-end honors that year. And they said, so you're already making a contribution. And we think you could make a contribution on this board. And so we joined it. And unfortunately that year, the year prior, actually, they took a big step on putting on Mr. Leather, and they hope to help, and they think, unfortunately, it was like, it ended up about $14,000 to $16,000 in a hole. So having done fundraisers and a lot of charity events myself, we formed the fundraising event. I mean, fundraising committee, myself, Dr. Larry Burton, Dave Rhodes, Genesis, Carol, Ron Nethus, and Cody, who was the previous Mr. Leather Leather. And we put an actor here as we put on pageant practices, roller skate nights, rocky water nights. I mean, we worked our ass off and we got the coalition out of debt. And then we really found out that the prior people had not been up on having their fees to the state, so it was another $8,000. So we continued the fundraising, but eventually we got it all caught up and stuff. So I felt really good about being able to be part of something that was close to my heart, that had a purpose, and was something that brought all of our elements of our Leather community together. The Roddick City was something that somebody in the Leather community was working with back in, I think it was 2006, I can't remember, 2005, 2006. And they asked if I wanted to help. So I kind of came on board as a volunteer and I was a vendor coordinator, sponsorship chair and basically the organizer of the Roddick City within L.A. Pride. And we did that for a number of years and it was very hard. I loved it because it embraced the King community. It taught education. It brought the head community into it. We had essentially sponsored the Outdoor Dungeon at Roddick City and it was very fulfilling and rewarding to do and to help and to be part of it. But then we ran something in 2011 or 2010 that there was some changes made. And in 2011, not everybody was even invited to join the Roddick City. And one particular element was not and that was they said they mailed on female sub or not welcome. And so it's a head community question and we all went in and having a little bit of experience with working with them and in 2007 I was actually an honoree for West Hollywood and L.A. Pride. And we went in there and addressed it and we were told that, you know, male-male is good, female-female is okay, female-com, male-bonna is okay, but we can't have male-com, female-bonna because we don't want to send a message of domestic abuse. And I said, but it's about education. I mean, this is our chance to tell people what the difference between abuse and DSM is. And they said, well, we had two complaints last year about it. Two complaints? Two? If the Hilton did follow that same pattern, male-com wouldn't be around anymore. Okay. Then I pressured it and then they said something that disturbed me deeply and that was, and I don't want to mention the name, the person said, this is our debt, not yours. So I stepped away from the L.A. Pride and as did most of the head community and fortunately this changed over the next couple of years and in 2017 I received a call and asked if I would produce Erotic City and because they had nobody to do it and if I could then they were not going to help. So I thought, the only way to change things is to take a seat at the table. So I agreed and I went in and I put the group, the Erotic City together, we did it in about seven weeks, we coordinated the whole thing. We brought gay, lesbian, trans, heterosexual, white, black, Asian, Hispanic. Yet we brought up everybody, I brought the entire community and every aspect that we could to perform and have interacted spaces and went over really well and after that they asked me to join the board of directors and with all the things that got going on I had to think about it because one thing that I use my time wisely on is things that I have goals and that I want to do things with and every question that I had at the time but again it was like you can't complain if you're not willing to take a seat at the table and do something about it so I accepted and now I'm one of the officers and the secretary for the board of directors and I'm working with L.A. Pride producing around the city and on the special committee for our 2020 L.A. Pride this will be our 50 year anniversary but basically it's always been for me about what can I bring to the table and what can I do again it doesn't be noticed to me at this time that they have more to be bring than my upbringing because again my upbringing was about if you work hard and you're sincere you put the effort in it will come back to you that everything is an investment you can invest your money or you can invest your time but if nothing comes free so you know I love my community my community is something that in some ways I can look at and say save my life not maybe quite societal ways but I found my place in life and I'm happy, I'm happy every day it's bringing me joy and I see the people going to a robotic city feeling pride, the dog hunt the people who I wish was around when I was their age so it means a lot to me to know that they're not going through the same turmoil and tribulations and things that I went through going back well tell us about the Ms. Sanctuary Leather and the Ms. LA Leather contest we started Sanctuaries joining the LA Title System back in 2007 we were the first non-specific gay organization to take and put a contestant in the Mr. LA Leather we were the first demigod and pansexual space to become a member of the LA Leather Coalition and so we kind of had a little bit of history of operating with Brown dog hunt did that and so on well the women's community has never been the real organized in here and with my position on the board for LA LC and I participation with LA Pride and the erotic city and things like that put me in a nice position to be able to make a difference and in my DS household that's our mantra, make a difference so in 2014 I decided let's do a Ms. Sanctuary contest the compliment to the Genesis and Run for International Leather in 2010 I think it was and the didn't have other cities and I had the whole women's community out there that it was flourishing but not necessarily LA so I thought this is the way many kickstart things and I went to Shea Flanagan at the Alucana Atlanta and I told her in 2013 that I was going to do a Ms. Sanctuary contest and would she like to be a judge and she said oh absolutely and we got back to LA and a few weeks later she said I've been thinking about that you have to be a judge and she's just been talking about that and I said yeah I'd like to decline that because I'd like to become a contestant it was a wow that would be great so in 2014 we held our first Mr. and Ms. Sanctuary contest together and Shea won I made down a couple things to her and I said you know we need to get the community kick started okay and one thing I would like you to do is to build a consummate to the LA Bandit Brothers their sister but it needs something for women title holders so that was the task that I gave her for her title here and she founded the and titled sisters and then she and talking about wanting to maybe do Ms. LA Leather and I told her I would be supportive with her I could be supportive I could not be involved because doing the Sanctuary it would be a conflict of interest so but she had all my support so she busted her butt she went out and did it 2015 Ms. LA Leather contest restarted then dormant for I think about 8-10 years maybe more and our Ms. Sanctuary won Ms. LA Leather and then spurred a couple of other contests around LA that have a way with contests and you know in 2016 our Ms. Sanctuary won again another win so I feel very proud of Ms. LA Leather because it has helped break the ground to get the women's leather community established and started and we're no longer the focus of the women's community here but it was never meant to be the focus it was meant to be a starting point to grow upon and I'm happy to see the women's community grow as it is and I'm happy to see the women's community embracing the women's community to a point I mean the evil has nights for women and things with a lot of people and you leave that layer they say what about the eagles how many other women in there that Charlie and Hunter have been so supportive over the years I mean there's some controversy this year with Mr. and Ms. LA Leather contests being put together that's the whole other story switching gears a little bit although you were raised Catholic you're now Wicca and when we were preparing for this interview you said that there are a lot of correlations between Wicca and BDSM please explain that sure I was brought up Catholic and it became a conflict because again I mean don't listen to everything you're told question things don't grow up to be a father grow up to be a leader and knowledge is power okay so I did question things and in Catholic religion everything didn't make sense and they were very contradictory to me I would be told that God is all loving and everything else but if you didn't do XYZ you were going to burn in health fraternity or something wow it sounds like a real revenge it's like loving in Catholic you're going to do things or you're going to suffer fraternity so it didn't make sense to me I saw contradiction in behavior that I was told that I could go to confession and do penance and all the things I did be forgiven but I had friends who were going to steal candy and go to confession and all of a sudden you're holding it now and you go out and steal more candy and you go to confession again so it was like my spirituality being brought up was that if there's God then when he gave us a brain to think and he used a conscience to know that we couldn't right and wrong I don't believe in a religion I think it's bogus I think it's manipulative and controlling and being a sort of coming from a science background in college I'm very analytical so it didn't make sense that there's some being out there that created everything so my thing was if there is something I meet my maker one day I'm going to be able to take a look at many eyes and say I made some mistakes but everything that I did I thought it was right and my conscience if I found out it was wrong and my conscience told me it was wrong I didn't do it again so I drifted away from that and said I had nothing to do with any religion and Genesis at the time was after I was married I actually was wicked and one day she said to me you know everything you want to do I go where you want to go I support you in everything you do and she was really helpful into the wicked practice and she said and I've asked you before to explore it and you won't and I said I don't believe in a religion but you know something I will so I went and I realized that how it resonated with me was that it was about karma which I believed in it was about how you live your life it was about what you put out there and what's going to come back it was about the the elements you know fire you go through elevations and when I raised I mean my priest my priestess I did something about I did night play I did fire play and you know temperature play with ice which was all the elements of air the elements of water of the fire and it was like wow it's frustrating I'm also very ritualistic in my play I like to take moments and I set the scene between when I pick up a flogger it starts in the audience of the room and setting it up and this is what this was and they weren't telling me that there's a supreme being that's going to punish me if I don't do what they say so it was like this is not what I thought it was this is a spirituality and something that touches me you know what goes around comes around the foundation and everything involved with it I can identify with you know I thank Jen for opening that door for me and helping me explore it because it's given me some balance in my life I'm not so cynical now about spirituality tell us about Whiteman's privilege what is that I mean I had the unique being transgender being unique in having grown up male and seeing how you're treated and so now I didn't transition when I was young I transitioned older in life so I lived as an adult male in the world in the music business and I can tell you that when I was treated as a male and the way I'm treated as a female are different they're much different I mean as a female they're very courteous they're very respectful but respectful in a different way it's new as a male I never questioned on a decision I could take I could go and buy a car and never get questioned on it after transitioning it's like are you sure you need this it's the right part little things like that the way people move out of your way they do it I guess as a female they move out of your way as a male they move out of your way as a respect at least that's my experience that's been the way that I've related to I've lived on both sides of that line there's probably more to it every day but also as a male I'm worried about going out at night I was in the music business I was in the sunset trip I had no problem going to my car at 2 or 3 in the morning but when I transition I don't do that I don't walk by myself at 3 o'clock in the morning down in Hollywood or LA or anything like that not only because of the female because of the vulnerability that you feel it's not even that I feel as vulnerable because of me but it's the vulnerability and the empowerment that the other person may have and they feel that they're more powerful than you that's when you're in danger as a male they would not feel as if they were more powerful they'd feel more even basis and being transgender makes it even worse because now it's not only do you fear sexual or like that but now is it bordering on that person someone who's hateful you know and it becomes much more dangerous well building upon that there's a lot of violence toward transgendered individuals a lot of many people are even murdered what are your thoughts on that it I saw in the 70s and 80s when there was violence I grew up watching you know the house next door was sold to men what the hell and everybody was nice but behind their backs the whole neighborhood I think they're homosexual I think they're homo-laws and negativity and that you couldn't go in public and hand out truly you couldn't share any kind of intimacy or let people know that it was kind of intimacy because people don't really understand but there were people who felt that it wasn't acceptable as far as gone on or wasn't acceptable as far as men shouldn't do that and there are people who are getting beat up there were people who were being prejudiced against and thrown out of their jobs and their homes and everything and I've seen over the years things get better and get better and we're in my opinion taking a huge step backwards in the last two years with their current administration is I don't think there are more people that are hateful because they were there and that's why I say that we still fear going out ourselves at night we still have to give our surroundings because they're down there but now they've got a voice and now they've been empowered and have a feeling of acceptance and as a result it's on the rise again and it's it's sad because yes, transgender but even people of color and more importantly is transgender women of color are getting murdered all over this country every day and there is no media coverage of that it's a bad situation what advice can you offer a viewer or anyone else who may be here that's considering gender reassignment well, I think number one is you've got a I don't want to say that there's people who are so sure of something and when you're sure of something nobody can tell you different and that can be a good thing and a bad thing one of the things I learned about psychology especially being transgender because there was a question that I wanted to make sure that I knew when I talked my therapist about it was genuine and what my therapist explained to me was that there's something called primary and secondary and primary whereas it's really the way you're wired that is who you are but there's something called secondary that's that can be very dangerous to you and that is that you dress in whatever direction you're going and you feel really good about it and there are times when you may be going through family problems you may be going through problems with your work lost a job, financial problems and your escape is that cross dressing and pretty psychologically what you start to associate is I feel good when I'm in that mode so you start to believe that maybe I'm transgender maybe I'm too long for this argument I'm going to dress I feel really comfortable I'm not worrying about anything I feel good but when I go back to my everyday male life I'm unhappy well the unhappiness is the result of telling to deal with the day-to-day business so you start emotionally thinking and associating it so you start to lean toward that and among those people when they're going to a therapist and the therapist questions it they're like well you don't know what he's talking about I'm going to I know and they make a mistake because it's not something you turn around and go back so my advice is that go into an open mind and I can share that when I went to see a therapist the first time I didn't hold and I wasn't a praying type of person but I hold with all of my heart what I was going to find out was that I was a heterosexual cross-dresser and it was a kink and it was a sexual turn on because it would have been a lot easier in my life to stay male and dress and have fun and playtime and kind of now you can do it in public I went into an open mind and said that's what I hope but I'm going to find out what it is and through my therapy a lot of times I thought my therapist my question was whether he was really hoping or not it was really hard but I realized in the long run you go through a lot of tests and it's very serious and you have to be honest with your therapist be honest with yourself and accept whatever it really is and deal with it see guidance get an entering feel proud be honest be yourself just don't win your life for everybody else in the world What's the biggest misconception about you? I don't know if there's any real misconceptions because I've always been really open I've been open about being a pro-dom I've been open about the newly business I've been open about being trans so I don't know if there's any misconceptions you know what maybe one of the things that I wouldn't call a misconception maybe to something you don't know is that I was completely blind from 1994 and most people I don't think most people are aware of it I've been known for people tell you how good I am with drawing whips so from a long time I've been blind since I was a pro-dom I kept that as a kind of secret you know what I'm starting to say oh yeah I'm easy with this whip I'm blind you know doesn't give a good level of confidence by now people have seen me draw whips they know how good I am so I have no problem telling them just think if I can see Mr. Sayan thank you for hosting this interview and thank you for hosting us you're a sanctuary