 Closed coverage of interview in the Oval Office by the Midwestern newspapers with President Ronald Reagan Tape number one Copland camera homes recording Just the ones that you bring in Mr. President a recent poll showed you beating Mondale among independent voters, but losing to heart Given the fact that independence possibly can be expected to the side the next election Why do you think heart has this advantage among independents at this time and how do you propose to counter it? assuming he's a nominee. Oh, I think that we're I think that we're seeing a contest that is going on over there that is very much in people's minds and and In the press and the media so that As I've always said I think polls are pertinent to when they're taken and there have also been several polls that have shown the reverse that I'm doing all right, so I I'm just gonna wait for that poll that takes place next November. You care to tell us what the chief vulnerability seem to be for heart and Mondale? No, I'd rather not comment on their problems. I enjoy watching it I'm wondering whether you think the prize will be worth it. We're facing huge deficits possibilities of tax increases a Second Reagan administration may not be able to come up with many new exciting initiatives for the American people You think you think it's going to be a terrible chore in the second term Are you going to be able to excite the public? Well to a certain extent it's always quite a chore, but no one of the reasons why I Would like to run is the job is unfinished and I think they've made a tremendous start on getting things corrected and needed correct for decades and It just isn't possible to get the job done in these in these few years Well, will there be a possibility of any new initiatives when we're facing these kinds of problems or deficits and the Possibility of tax increases and so forth Well, how do you start new programs if you don't have money to pay for? well Maybe if we continue on the course we're on I am convinced that we will reduce the cost of government certainly the rate of increase in government spending we have already we've about cut it in two and The we're doing the the things that I think Needed doing We are bringing unemployment down at a faster rate than it's been brought down in more than 30 years The growth in gross national product and productivity and retail sales all of those Economic indicators are up and yes, it is going to take some time, but I'd like to recall to you that I said a Couple of years ago that this wouldn't be done in months It wouldn't even be done in just a few years that it was it's been coming on for a half a century and so I foresee Getting some of the things that we've been refused so far We've only obtained about half of what we asked and changes in government spending No, we'll keep on going for the other half Well There I Tell you a great many of them would be found will be found in the Recommendations of the Grace Commission Almost two thousand top leaders in every facet of our economy volunteered their services to Take a look at government and take a look from the standpoint of Whether modern business practices could improve things Prove the way of doing things and they now have given us almost 2,500 recommendations and We have a task force of our own now that is working on those to see Because many of them the bulk of them will take legislation I meant in terms of new initiatives in a second Reagan Reagan administration Not not the things that are needed to cut the deficit, but new programs perhaps Do you have anything like that in mind? If there are new programs that would be beneficial to the people and proper to To employ yes, you'd go that way, but right now I Think a great deal of a problem is that government has attempted to do a great many things that aren't governments proper prerogative Some of those things in Thailand programs affecting the middle class and well those be off-limit in the so I think that the entitlement programs have to be looked at structurally and That's got to be a very careful study because there is no way that I would ever support pulling the rug out from under people that are presently Dependent on programs such as Social Security and Contrary to what some of our opponents have said of me there has never been a time when I have advocated pulling that rug out as a matter of fact the average Married couple on Social Security today is getting a hundred and eighty dollars a month more and they were getting when I took office but I think that looking at the demography looking at the Statistics with regard to workers earners retirement Ages and so forth you have to look at programs of that kind as to whether they need restructuring for people just coming into the workforce and who One day will be Depending on those programs The Democratic leaders in the house this afternoon reached tentative agreement on a plan for budget deficit reduction And it's it's not too different from the one you Supported ahead of them Give except for fifty billion dollars difference and I wondered whether there's you could see any give between those two plans that might Bring a mutual agreement between the Democrats on the house There's always been my hope of we have to have under the situation with the majority One party in one house and the majority the other in the second house said We have to have bipartisan programs, but I haven't seen or heard what it is they've Come out with today or what they've come together on and I'd like to see it and study it with regard to ours President Minority leader bird said the other day that Ed Meese will always have a cloud over him because of the The allegations and charges that have come to light over the the last few weeks in his nomination hearing Why do you continue to back mr. Meese and Do you want to have an attorney general? Should he be approved or sanctioned by the Senate? Who when people see him may Bring forth those thoughts that here's a guy who trades jobs for for loans Well Gary That charge Let me just remind you of something about our administration and during the campaign something that I said this idea of Job hunters That could be purchased or something. Let me point out I said that we were going to try to get people in our administration Who didn't want or need a government job and we've done pretty much that and So the situation is a little distorted regard to that the no we have an investigation now that's going forward that Ed Meese has supported the idea he wants it and So I can't comment on Particulars now because there is such an investigation, but I have complete confidence in him I've known him for a great many years and I think he'd make an excellent attorney general Well, you have confidence in him mr. President But the perception as senator Matthias of Maryland said the other day is is one that could cause a problem Not only with the Senate, but with the American people as well well Perception is something that's always present in government and in politics and there are an awful lot of wrong perceptions about many things having to do with this administration and and I Think when the truth is Is no one an investigation is completed Then I think the American people are very fair and they can make their judgment So you so you don't think let me just finish up Jerry So you don't think then that he should step aside or withdraw or you wouldn't ask No, because then there would be a cloud Over him because he would no longer have the means or there would no longer be investigations or anything by which He could be cleared No, and I wouldn't listen if he did Were you aware of these loans and transactions at the time you nominated him? What's that? Were you aware of these loans and transactions at the time you nominated him? No, I hadn't Delved into his Personal life. I do know that like so many others that came into these government jobs I knew that he had to make some pretty great economic sacrifices To come here and work for the government There may be an appearance of possibly impropriety in a situation where there are six instances where people Whatever the reasons were where people who provided financial help to me Did receive jobs in the administration? I'm not imputing any any any wrong motives to anybody But there is that factual situation. I know but as I answered a moment ago I think someone should take a look and see what did they have to give up in order to take that government job and Most of the people in our administration had to give up a great deal It's more than just a paycheck with the government. It's it's a whole question of influence and being able to Get on the inside with in government agencies and so forth It's more than just a giving up a high-paying job in private industry for for another job in government It's a The perception again without impugning any motives to some people is buying influence in the government. I don't know I I just have to tell you that There are more people Who actually are public-spirited enough Believed enough in what we were trying to do That they wanted to be of help in that Than anyone is giving a giving them credit for Mr. President a related problem that occurs in situations like this is that Is that the situation itself may in the end be damaging to the Administration the administration or the president whoever he may be Situation of that type occurred in President Carter's administration with his good friend Burt Lance and Lance eventually Eventually withdrew from his position as head of the Budget Bureau, but it had damaged the administration Are you is there concern any concern in your part that there is that prospect of No, I thought that there was anyone who In our administration who was doing something that was contrary to the public interest and the interests of the people I'd be the first one Take action to to oust them on the other hand. I've never been one that Wanted to throw the baby out of the sleigh to the wolves in order to lighten the load Secretary Schultz said today that We must accept the results of the Salvadoran election whatever those might be but realistically do you think that if That Congress would sanction continued aid to a regime headed by this fellow dobas on who suspected of involvement and murder And secondly, do you have any message for those? Salvadoran military leaders who are rumored to be thinking about a coup Well, certainly I would not support the idea of a coup. We have a democratic government there probably for the first time in 400 years that has been doing its best to Institute democracy and democratic principles practices and I'm not going to say a word Now about anyone who is a candidate there because I think the United States I Want to be of help and I think we should be of help down there But I don't think we should say anything that Indicates that we are taking sides in this in this election I don't think that's our our place Mr. President in In much of the rural America Farmers have been beset by large crop surpluses Depressed prices increased competition from abroad. They've seen their neighbors facing bankruptcy They've had trouble getting their own operating capital. I wonder with that set of circumstances Why rural America should support you for another term Now I miss something you know something there's a terrible thing about this room here And even in spite of my airing problems with that dome when you get out there toward the center at the beginning you You're much of rural America today. Oh farmers. Yeah, ah Well There's no question, but that in the cost price squeeze The inflationary spiral and the high interest rates that reach their peaks 1980 the farmers were probably hurt worse than any other segment of our society The their cost skyrocketed at the same time that in all of the inflation there the prices They could obtain were going down and then they had the embargo thrown at them, which Was a serious blow to a large segment of our farm economy on the other hand the bankruptcies that Some people are talking about today Last year there were two hundred and seventy thousand loans out to farmers and less than one half of 1% and resulted in bankruptcies now I So I don't think that this is that that is a major problem there what we've been able to do is By bringing down inflation Reduce the However increasing cost of operation for them By our pick program We by eliminating a great deal of the surplus we have increased prices for their products The other that surplus hung over them and was an artificial cap on them We are going to be the Department of Agriculture is going to be lending some four point six billion dollars This year in help to the farmers We have now eliminated the embargo opened up foreign trade for them The new long-term agreement with the Soviet calls for 50 percent more than had been in the agreement so The farmer will be the slowest in coming back But is coming back and there is improvement In the out there in the in the agribusiness Yes, yes, they they are getting better and they are better That the sale of the stinger planes go through The Jordan and in light of what King Hussein said this past weekend and in light of what Secretary Steeke Schultz Has said in the last couple days. Are you still hanging in there for that sale or you are you willing to pull it back? Well, let me just say I'm not going to talk about details of it other than to say that The whole basis for peace in the Middle East and the thing that we tried to help bring about and they're going to continue to try and help bring about is dependent on being fair and even handed in dealing with the moderate Arab states that I think also want peace Israel and we know our relationship with Israel and what it has always been and will continue to be and It we can't appear to be one-sided Jordan and King Hussein had the courage to Participate and make himself available for the peace efforts and He is in a position in which there was some risk entailed with the border that he has with Syria and Therefore, I think that it is only fair and if we don't If we don't make available the things that he needs for his own security. He's going to find them someplace else One of the most damaging things Charges though it seems to me that King Hussein made was to an effect say that your administration and some previous ones as well I've not been honest brokers in the Middle East. How do you respond to that? Well, I Read what he said in the interview, but then I also saw him on television last Sunday and I thought that there was There was a Sort of withdrawal from some of what had been cited as more extreme Statements, but I do know this we've had a friendship and I Think he he and his country are essential to the two piece in the Middle East and we're not going to give up that goal Very lightly. This is the president last week EPA administrator Ruckus. I'll said that while in principle the administration supports reauthorizing superfund Nothing would be done until after the election I'm wondering why the delay and can people in towns that are Contaminated with with various chemicals like dioxin such as times beach be assured that there will be government help Well, I don't know of anyone here that thinks that the super fund is going to await the taking place of an election Bill Ruckers house is Made a plane to me that he's determined to carry on with that program Is there is there a plan or? Deadline when the administration plans to come out and say what at what level you will reauthorize Superfund Well, you've got me a little short on this one. I've Things have been going along over there and very well, and I know that he's been Establishing himself and getting these programs into operation. And so I just don't know the basis for the question there Whether there's some Yeah Mr. President have you given any thought to your campaign yet and whether you'll campaign differently against mr. Mondale or mr. Hart should one or the other be the nominee No, I don't think it'll make much difference who the other fellow is I I've always preferred campaigning on the basis of What we've done and what we intend to do Looking to the future with positive new ideas who would you sooner face, huh? Who would you sooner face? I Won't answer that I'm not going to help them out. They're gonna have to make that choice themselves Idea sounds like Gary Hart It did Do you envision a run against him More than Mondale at this point. No, I was just talking that my idea of a campaign is to Give the balance sheet on what we've done what we've accomplished And what we intend to do if given the opportunity to go forward on this And I think we've got a lot of things to be proud of things that are drastically different Very few of you realize that for the last three years Unlike the last 50 there haven't been arguments going on in Washington about whether or not and what to spend additional money on The arguments have been and on where do we cut? Mr. President you've called to follow up with another political question if I may you've called Mondale vice president malaise in the past I believe and If it's fair, I wonder if it is fair to blame him for the for the mistakes the Carter administration And if so are there any mistakes in your administration that you'd attribute to George Bush? No and believe me George has been a working partner in this administration. I think probably more so than most other vice presidents that I can recall I don't recall actually tying his name to that. I have talked about that all that talk of malaise back at a time when they were trying to explain the Our economic problems as being blamed on the people. He was a suspect target. I guess. Oh well No, I Haven't been targeting anyone. I've been talking about we came here with a whole policy of government That we inherited that had been on one path of growth in government constant increasing of the Amount of earnings that we took away from the people for government government doing more and more things and Many of them that were not governments proper province and we set out to streamline this somewhat we set out to Give the economy a chance and give the people a chance out there and I think it's worked We have the greatest decline in unemployment in more than 30 years I believe we have an an economic improvement that is it's on a solid basis and not just a Temporary quick fix an artificial stimulant which has been characteristic of seven previous recessions since World War two I'm proud of what we've done with regard to the military We have the highest percentage of high school graduates in our military today Then we have ever had in the history of this country and that includes back when we had the draft Which was an all encompassing sweep that took in everybody we have 91 percent of our personnel out there high school graduates and There's a morale. There's a readiness seat That I think is Something the people of this country have every reason and right to be proud of I've often wondered the we see the charge made very often and usually by opponents of yours that that your administration is the administration of the wealthy that You don't have much sensitivity for poor folks for minorities and so forth I'm sure you're familiar with all these Charges they've been made over and over again. I was just curious as to how does that make you feel? I mean, what do you feel about that? Does that disturb you? Does that bother you? Does that it frustrates me? Yes, and it is a part of what Gary was talking about a little while ago It's a perception and it's a perception that is based absolutely on falsehoods We can turn to any area of the society we want to and we will find out that none of those things are true Was reducing 12 and a half percent inflation and bringing it down to around three percent Was that more beneficial to the rich than it was to the lower-income person who had to spend the bulk of their income? I didn't have any to put aside A fellow in 1979 that was making five thousand dollars a year, which would leave him pretty poor By the end of 1980 in just those two years his five thousand would only buy what four thousand dollars? Would have bought before simply because of inflation we triple the taxes in decade or so before we got here the Personal earnings Well, let me give a figure not just personal earnings And the last several years before we got here there were three increases in the grants to people on the program aid for dependent children and at the end of the three increases they were poorer and Had less purchasing power than they had before the increases went into effect because of inflation and of course the increase in taxes As I say they well they doubled in the last Four or five years before we came here, but the priority was cutting government spending was cutting programs The administration wasn't saying we want to go out and help all these people and I mean it was a but but we did emphasis Maybe maybe the perception is because of the emphasis. Well, wait a minute. Here's here's what we did Many of those programs had become so encrusted The administration so big that the federal government was paying a tremendous Fee for every dollar that it delivered to a needy person The things we were trying to cut was not the dollar to the needy person It was the sometimes two dollars it took to deliver that to him on the other hand We also found people in these programs That had no justification for being there when people were earning above a hundred and fifty percent of the poverty level as Much as up to 180 percent and still being declared eligible for these programs We felt something had to be done and we redirected those programs Toward those who were truly needy and today we are feeding more people We are taking care of more people We are funding more students going to college than ever before in our history We are giving more food stamps to more people than we were ever giving in our history and yet We got 800 and some thousand people off of food stamps But we increased the number total number that we're getting food stamps, but the 800,000 or more was around 860,000 those people Were of an income that was above a level in which their neighbors should have been contributing to their welfare You say it frustrates you and there has to be a way to counter this to change it How would you go about changing this perception? Well, I'm hopeful as the campaign goes on we'll tell the truth and You see so far It's just been a constant drum beat on the other side the fairness issue well And that somehow our tax program benefited the rich Not those at the lower level of income and yet the very people saying this have been fighting and fighting to get us to cancel indexing Well, if you cancelled indexing The penalty for canceling it would run about 2% increase in taxes For the person at a hundred thousand dollars It would be a 9% increase for the person at ten thousand dollars Now does that make us the administration of the wealthy or the rich? The truth of the matter is in everything from college loans to grant programs to food stamps We took programs that were were benefiting people Who were really should not be depended on government and we redirected that money to the to the people of true need and Actually with all of the supposed cuts in budgets No, all we've done all we've been able to do is reduce the rate of increase in spending We're spending more We're just not spending as much more and if we had stuck to the budgets of our predecessor His you know how you have to project now under the law several years ahead if we had stuck to his projected budgets Today's deficit would be a hundred and ninety-one billion dollars more than it is Three or four million more people Below the poverty level now according to the Census Bureau's figures in the world when you took office How does how does that not than when we took office the recent survey that was widely touted was from 1979 to 1982 well 1982 we just started because when you take office in 1981 You take office inheriting the budget already in place and the programs already in place from your predecessor now our program for economic recovery Had just begun in 1982 to be phased in But we had that great further dip in the 1970 and 80 Recession in July of 1981 not one bit of our program was in place when that big Fall into ten point eight percent unemployment so forth when that took place So of course there are more people in poverty in in that particular year but the decline or the increase I should say in the number of people in living in where is the What is the number of people living in poverty in 1983 and once the recovery was underway? The truth is if they wanted to even go back farther back in the 60s Early 60s we had fewer people living below the poverty line than we had in the later 60s after The Great War on poverty got underway and there has been from that moment on a steady increase in the level of poverty right on up to the figures that were used 1979-82 figures Could I ask a question on the deficit you've proposed a down payment on the deficit, but that still would leave you With pretty large budget deficits and I wonder if the choices on a second down payment aren't going to become More difficult business week magazine has proposed and I wonder if you could react to their suggestions on how to reduce the deficit I found them interesting that Some cuts in social security and Medicare which will be sensitive slowing the defense buildup Which you'd rather not do Slashing farm supports which could be politically dangerous cutting state and city aids some more cutting federal pensions and raising taxes on the middle class You reject all of those or quite a few of them. Yes I do quite a few now we have part of our own proposal is a freeze on farm Payments as you know, but that was because the 1981 farm bill When it was passed was based on what they had projected would be a much higher inflation rate And so we're spending in the farm program several times more than we should have been spending No, what I said this is a down payment Because the structural changes the things such as the grace commission their recommendations. These are going to take Really bipartisan approach and study because these are Your deficit was made up of half recession and half structural That structural thing was built in that was the automatic increases that just took place as Every year went by and the Congress didn't have to increase them. They they were there Now we need structural reform the the the recovery is already Has already had some reductions of over our own estimates of the deficit as you know last summer We were estimating above two hundred billion dollars and suddenly it is down sizeably more than that down around 180 that is the recovery that's doing that Now that will continue as the recovery continues or I've got to stop saying recovery Some of the leading in Economists in the country have contacted me and said I should no longer use that word because we're beyond recovery We are now into expansion So the expansion will continue, but the structural part will remain a threat Until we deal with it and this is where As I say, I think that we not only in those commission reports, but everything else We must look at structural reforms that can be made That will leave government doing what government is intended to do For example, some of the savings that we made We're by way of things we call block grants as governor I came here knowing that in California the Categorical grants where the federal government gave the state of California X amount of money for a certain program and then told us right down to the smallest T how and we could use that money and what must be done with it Well, it didn't meet our priorities. Maybe it met the next state's priorities, but ours were different then someone else's were different and So I came here conceiving this idea of let's put the money for general purpose in block grants and turn them over to the states and localities and Give them the ability to administer these as they know they will be most efficient and This allowed the there again the money that was being saved in reducing these amounts Was the administrative overhead that was being eliminated and we must do more of this You know what a mayor? Tells you that a program with regard to transportation for the handicapped the way the government the federal government forced it on him so costly that he He could have sent Taxi cabs for every hand get person that needed a transportation and Been money ahead if he'd been allowed to do that It wouldn't have cost as much as that it did doing it the way the federal government said they had to do it So these are the type of structural reforms that they're just waiting to be implemented and Yes I'm gonna try Again Well, we got a majority but a majority were for it, but we didn't get the two-thirds But here again, could I take advantage of you? I know Larry says we're through love let me take advantage of you though for one thing and Maybe the media in some ways has helped with this certainly in the editorial pages I've talked to senators and who voted against this And so caused it's not getting the two-thirds And was amazed to find that their reason for voting against it was they felt that they were voting against Where government was going to mandate school prayer on the schools and there was nothing of the kind That isn't what we had before the Supreme Court decision and when I was going to six Elementary different elementary schools in eight years because my father moved around so much and Was taken for granted that there was no ban on prayer in schools But we didn't have concerted prayer wine I can remember a few times when Some classmate was ill or some students mother was very ill and the teacher might say Let's all pray for The recovery so forth things of that kind all the amendment we proposed would do Would be to say if the schools want to that's up to them. It's permitted the Constitution does not deny them the right What we did specify was that know they couldn't write a prayer and know they couldn't dictate a specific prayer or Dictate a method of doing this. They didn't have to do it at all they didn't want to when many of the schools I say that I attended didn't other than occasions of this kind and for Senators who were up there in the debate to be so Convinced That what they were voting against was was an order a mandate on the schools We just wanted to give the authority back to the schools to do what they wanted to do So we'll try to make it more, huh? What they miss the boat they Just didn't understand it and we we got the majority vote this afternoon, but it wasn't a two-thirds so Constitutional amendment requires the two-thirds Yes, I know