 Okay, so welcome to tonight's SOAS Centre of Taiwan Studies lecture. In a theory tonight is the last session in our contemporary Taiwan Indigenous Studies lecture series, that we've been running over the last two years. So it's a sad moment, but we are working to continue this series over the next few months, and there will be more, including our documentary on Army Hip Hop coming up, and we are starting to plan a, I think we'll have at least two more events this term, and we will have more into Term 3 on this theme of Taiwan's Indigenous peoples. For those of you that missed last night's remarkable talk, in last night's talk, Centre Fan gave us an overview of the trends of Indigenous literature over the last few decades, and she's going to build on that talk tonight. Centre Fan did her PhD in Chinese at National University, and now works in the Taiwan Literature Institute or Department at National Tsinghua University. And hopefully tonight we'll have a little bit, we kind of rushed the Q&A a little bit last night, but hopefully we'll have a little bit more time for Q&A. So let's give Professor Chen another big welcome to SOAS. Okay, thank you, all of you, come here in a beautiful Friday night. You know, when I walk around the street, I see a lot of people relax in the Friday night, so I really appreciate all of you come here, and I hope after my talk we have a lot of time to discuss this topic. Maybe this way we'll end the night more beautiful. Okay, this is my second talk about Taiwan Indigenous literature. Today I want to talk about this topic. The topic is three keywords, literature, native resurgence, and Aboriginal knowledge. We call it epistemology. So my presentation is divided two parts. One is to talk about the relationship of the three keywords, and the other I will share for stories to respond this topic. So this is my presentation. And if I want to talk about Indigenous literature as a way for future making, we talk about the four points of view. Yesterday we talked about the change of writing style, and the literature are transformed into cultural and creativity industrial. So we talk about this topic. This topic is focused on the change, the change way, the style, and from realistic to magical realism. So yesterday we talked about this topic. I want to focus on the Indigenous writer want to continue the story. So they use different ways to tell the story and attract people's attention. So I think this is the way they want to attract all of you to be a reader. So they use popular ways or transformed into movies and some products. But today I want to focus on another part of the future of making. The part is I think some writers redefine the cultural identity and to think, contest, or to view in their literature. Maybe their ideal reader is themselves, is the tribal people. So I think their ideal reader is different. One maybe is maybe all of us included hand people and their tribe. But the other, and we will talk about this, maybe this literature, their ideal reader is tribal people. So I would like to show when literature focus on cultural identity and focus on the world of view. Maybe they talk about the topic of native resource by literature. What is native resource? I think I have some ideas from James Clifford. James Clifford is an ethnologist and he is a surprise book. The book is Returns Become Indigenous in the 21st Century. I think the main thing of the book is talk about the Indigenous people can't disappear and the culture of Indigenous people will not vanish because they obtain materials from deeply rooted and adaptable traditions. So to deal with this rooted and adaptable tradition, they can deal with the force of globalization and capitalism. So in this book, view it, the James Clifford insist maybe if Indigenous people want to have a good future, they have to come back to find their tradition. But I think the James Clifford says if the Indigenous people come back to find a tradition, but the tradition is not continuously and don't change tradition. The tradition is a process about engagement, about performance and translation. So according to him, native resource is a continuous process that involves these three tragedies. So with this tragedy, ethnic identity is not about returning to an essential and continuous tradition, but about a process of forming a new unity. In this book, I think when he talked about native resource, he suggests Indigenous people come back to find a tradition, but the tradition is a process, is a tragedy, to find a new way to form a new unity. So by the way, Indigenous people will find a new way to live in a modern life. If we take these native resource, we can talk about the tradition and epistemology in that way. I will use the example. This example is from Arkhead Island, Dao people. You see the pictures, the man to dry the fish. For these people, a man works every day and fish is the main work for a man every day. But when they have a flying fish festival, the man have to do a lot of things, like to make a boat to fish, to dry the fish and share this food. He has to tell some stories to their families about this ceremony. So this is a kind of a cosmetic life in the Dao people. But you see another picture. The picture is 1950, Dao people have their religious conversion. So at the start of this festival, Dao people will blessing in traditional way, and then they will give a blessing from pastor. So I use this flying fish festival to talk about the tradition and Indigenous people's knowledge. I want to share the Indigenous knowledge. This knowledge is practiced every day. Like I say, man fish every day. This is their culture. And practice in a holistic way, like flying fish festival, is a set of customs to have this ceremony. And very interesting, Indigenous knowledge does not mean traditional culture, it does not mean local culture. Because we can identify what is local culture. You see the Christian religion come to the tribe. Their traditional culture was mixed by Christian. So I think Indigenous knowledge reveals the kind of cross-culture characteristic. So what can we identify the Aboriginal knowledge? I think it is very interesting. Because we have to choose different way to describe it. And maybe every tribe have a mix, two or three cultures together. And then this is their tradition. That is their Indigenous knowledge. So this is a special way I want to talk the tradition and Aboriginal knowledge. By the way, I want to talk about the relationship the Indigenous literature and Indigenous knowledge. If we know the Indigenous knowledge is a process by tradition, local culture and mix some cultures from others. By the way, we can focus on three parts of Indigenous people and their knowledge. One is the primary world. The author returns to their tribe and starts to record family stories. The author organizes and summarizes the knowledge based on life experience and is described in new narration. So the first we can see some stories. The stories share a set of customs. This is the first part. And two, as Indigenous people live in the tribe culture and mainstream culture at the same time, their knowledge should have the property of being close culture. So Indigenous writers face changing culture and their identities. They have an opportunity to redefine the conception of Indigenousism. So the second part is like yesterday I mentioned. Maybe some writers use magical realism to tell stories because they think their Indigenousism is a mix of coastal mountainism. So this is the mixed result. So I use the diverse cultures to describe the second level of Indigenous knowledge. And the third, for the writing fields, we talked about yesterday for Indigenous people, writing is make a new world. They are not passive responders for astral environment. They, by writing, they could make a new world. By this way, they would make social space to define themselves. So it's full of energy and active. And when we see the relationship about literature field and Indigenous knowledge, maybe we can think interesting way. Some writers write a story. And the story is very special for all of us. So when we see this book, we clearly identify this is Indigenous literature. So when we see this book, maybe some writers and some stories have a cultural, social and symbolic capital. This capital would support some residents on native resurgence. This is three parts. I want to share Aboriginal knowledge, including the primary world, diverse cultures and writing field. And by this process and by this talking, I want to focus on Indigenous literature, show the Indigenous knowledge. But sometimes we have to notice that this knowledge, this Indigenous knowledge also makes a new way to tell the story. Sometimes we can see some story with the song, with some interesting style from the legends, from the stories. So if we, by the way, we can see the literature shows represent the Indigenous knowledge. But sometimes we find its influence on each other. We can see some words use special way from oral folklore or oral literature. So this is the influence by each other. And I want to share some story about this response the Indigenous knowledge, the story of time. The story of time tell a boy grow up. This story focus on it. The writer use this style to tell a boy from his birth and from his teenager to get in marriage and dance. In the whole of life, a man would have a lot of customs and a ceremony in one's life. So the writer use this style to tell the story of growing, to tell a story of time, to represent all of customs in a life. So a set of customs would be seen in a story. We can see a lot of customs, because this is the main thing in the story. And we read this story. We not only understand this ceremony, but also feel the emotion during the ceremony. So I think if the writer use this way, he want to share a man from the birth to the death. And maybe 50 or 60 years, there are a lot of ceremony in life. In this way, two interesting point we can recognize. One, how can the collective heritage be personalized of the purpose of literary writing? You know, this is collective heritage. But for a writer, he have to find a new narration to tell the story, even the story is full of customs and ceremony. So we may focus on be personalized, because this is the ambition for the writer. And second, how can we give mountain meanings to the means systems and the means thinking? This is very interesting. You know, in mountain life, we say the means is from ancestor, is old. But if we read this story, we have to find new meaning about this. So when we see this story, every reader read the story. He understand the ceremony, and maybe he would find new meanings to explain this custom. Although maybe he is hand people and he is not of a region. So this is the story of time. And this topic is traumatic, because everyone have the same situation about the birth and the death. The second, I think you are familiar with this. The second story is about urban witch. Yesterday we talk about witch, but today I focus on the urban. Because in Taiwan, Indigenous people live in cities. All of them live in the city. So if there are words, the literature always describe they live in the tribe, or they live in a traditional way. But in fact, they are live in the city. So the Indigenous writer use this story to share something, to represent Indigenous people live in cultural and city culture. So the story happened in the city. And to tell a difficult journey from a girl, this girl have to face the exam, but he be recalled to be a witch. I think this story is very interesting because the city for Indigenous people is bad, especially in the Indigenous movement. They think the city is evil because people have to forgive a lot of things to earlier living in the city. So the city is a bad meaning, but in this story, he transform this situation. The writer describe the girl live in the city use CD to study the tradition, like songs, like a ceremony, because she have no chance to live in the tribe. She live in the city, but use mountain ways to learn the tradition. So I think this is very interesting because this story shows the city become the place where the Indigenous people could assess resources and interpreted their tradition. They live in the city and find a new way to come back to catch the tradition. So the city have transform the meanings the city support a lot of chance, a lot of opportunity for them. And the story of urban witch, support and have a... maybe let me to think about which name we should to say. Because in the city, we have a lot of choice to be all kinds of people. Maybe the people live in the city like we, like us, we have a different identity at the same time have a lot of chance to be the person you want to be. So the writer change the image of the city to opposite the tribe. You know, the main thing in Indigenous literature, all people, all tribe people, all Indigenous want to go back home. The home is tribe. But now we have to rethink this topic. They live in the city and find a new way to make a new home in the city. So remember the James Cleaver, the topic of book is Returns As. So the Returns, it means the Indigenous people come back, come back to the tribe. But they have not stayed in the tribe. They have to come to the city or come to another place. And then they also come back to the home, come back to the tribe. This is Returns, the meaning of Returns. So by migrations on the state, the trace for the Indigenous people will be complicated. And this way we will make them to ensure which name should we say. So this is about the story of Urban. Another interesting story is about God. This story always ends with God, like this story. This story is about a girl. The girl, he had a bad fortune in his life. But the story ended with God. She carried this sense of guilt until he re-understand what was the best word by God. So I think this story is very interesting. Like we say the story of Urban, Indigenous people live in the urban, live in the city now. And Indigenous people are Christian. Most of them are Christian now. So you may argue what is their tradition. Because we also think the tradition is his original culture, tribe culture. But the Christian religion changed a lot, changed this way. Like we talk about the Flying Fish Festival. The start of this festival they use the Christian ceremony to blessing. So this story of God, the writer want to have a tension between the tribal culture and the Christian religion. By the way, the story also showed a special topic of this. I remember Duffy yesterday says a lot of scholars talk about the issue of Indigenous with faith, struggle and don't know how to do. So we talk in the first stage there are a lot of sad stories about this because it's true and Indigenous people have to find a new way to live in a modern world. But this story with God is special because the story, although the start of the story is said, by the end the character will be reversed when they meet the God. So I think it is very interesting. You know, most of them are Christians and the Christian religion is their daily life even maybe mixed with the tradition. So this story will have a new topic of Indigenous people literature like reverse. I think it is very surprise to me because reverse is not the traditional we know the folk local cultures thinking, reverse is from Christian. So when the story about God and have this special issue of reverse we talk about the original knowledge with diverse culture. This is the simple of the diverse culture. So we see the story of God and we also see the story of Rambo. I think this is another interesting issue because the Rambo issue is famous and popular in Taiwan. We have a lot of people to join this activity to create the human rights. And in this film the story about the Rambo about the gender issue for them for Indigenous people Indigenous guy will have a lot of conflict with a lot of situations like mainstream society like the father society. It is very surprise because Indigenous we all have a too struggle with Christian religion because in their tribe most of them are Christian. Although some Christian have an open mind, but most of them have this attitude to against LGBT. So Indigenous people if they are a guy, they will face a lot of challenges in Taiwan, especially in Christian region. So I use this as a movie but some literature have this the same character to say the story of Rambo. It will show the Indigenous ethnic group and gay mix and this identity will let them have a lot of change, have a lot of challenge in modern life. So I share these stories for stories like story of time, story of God, story of Rambo and story of city. I think this is truly this is the situation for Indigenous people in Taiwan now most of them live in a city, most of them are Christian and they are maybe I know a lot of friends, they are gay they have this choice. So I think this is not we call the tradition, but now we have to use different way to see this to see this tradition because the tradition is a process and now Indigenous people have this situation. So what can we define the tradition? We can say the tradition with local culture and city culture maybe yes, and we also have to say the local culture, the trap culture makes Christian culture and this is the true situation for Indigenous people now. So literature as a way for future making, I want to explain their relationship like this I think literature show and display their knowledge, their worldview and the epistemology redefine cultural identity. This knowledge have a double maybe cultural tribe from tribe and from mainstream this is the, I think this is all of the resource for Indigenous people to think to build their knowledge and by this the knowledge will define the cultural identity and the cultural identity will support Native resurgence I think this their relation is about this. So this is the main thing I talk, the literature will make a way for Native resurgence because this literature will ensure cultural identity and this topic of Indigenous literature their ideal reader is for themselves if they read this work they will feel yes, I have to redefine my cultural identity. Yes, I have to rethink which name that I would to say in the mountain life. So when the Indigenous people redefine their cultural identity they have the way to adapt in a mountain life. This is maybe this is our hope and this is my conclusion I think in the first stage we also use different way to say who I am like this picture we use the right way the right word, realistic style to claim the rights. But now by I describe all kinds of Indigenous knowledge maybe the question mark is full of meaning because the who am I question mark shows the attitude of choice if Indigenous people have the attitude have the choice, have a two choice which name he want to share with others, it means Indigenous people have a freedom their right to choose what life they want to do. So I give the question mark an active meaning I think it shows the return as returns the issues of choice and if the Indigenous people ask who am I and they follow the James Cleaver the tragedy they will choose the suitable way to live better and they will feel confident to choose the way they want to be. So I think in Taiwan maybe each man have a tool to share their identity but you know we have a different identity at the same time right? Sometimes we are ask who are you at that time we have a tool to choose one but in real situation maybe each of us have a lot of choice at the same time maybe we have two or three identity at the same time so if Indigenous people have a choice to say who am I and choose one of the identity I think this is the dream maybe this is the goal for the Indigenous native resurgence. So this is the literature I use literature to talk about this topic and I am very happy to talk about this topic with you. Thank you so much. It was fascinating. It was an even richer picture when it comes to the state of Indigenous literature. It was really built on your talk last night. I had one or two questions I wanted to start off with. One of them was to do with someone we touched upon last night in terms of readership. Now many of the scholars that have spoken on this lecture series are based in Dong Hua University. So something like half of their students are Indigenous. So while in contrast you are in a regular mainstream Taiwanese national university probably the number of Indigenous students is pretty low in your class. So I was curious about how your students back in Taiwan feel about the kind of work that you are doing. Do they actually enjoy this Indigenous literature? So let me just start with that question because at one point you talked about many of these writers you look at, you feel like they are writing for themselves rather than for mass audiences. So how do your students react to this kind of work? Thank you. I think this is a very interesting question. It depends on the students. I know the teachers you invite from Dong Hua and if the readers are Indigenous students maybe they will feel, yes, the book, the writer describes the wrong culture sometimes. Yes, because they use the different way to read the story. They will check what is true and what is maybe a really situation. But for me or for my students we are not Indigenous people and we are attracted by these customs, the storytelling and the viewpoint from there. Like we talk the story of time, you know my students are very interested in this story because this is different way between us. And in the story when a baby there is a lot of ceremony to do this. But this is very special for us. So my students are interested to read this special story. It's different between us. I think this question is very interesting because it means some writers write this topic become their cultural capital. When the book, when the story wants to be discussed, maybe they have two thoughts on this and we will buy the book and talk about this topic. The writer and the story have the cultural capital. I think for different readers have a different feeling about this story. So my students like this story but some of them didn't satisfy this kind of story. Because the story with most of the story use the realistic style. And my students especially for young students they like to read magical realism or read some fantasy story and they want to they want to get happy mind when they read the story. Sometimes. So I think it depends on the students and I don't know maybe in all your experience when you see the story it will let you think a lot. When we read a happy story we will think a lot too. So I think the story, if the story is discussed a lot maybe this is the writer's real hope. Very illustrative of certain dynamics involved and I want to suggest that you in your own presentation have illustrated another aspect of that in the way that you use English which I find both unconventional and also beautiful. The way in which you pronounce words would immediately confront a certain kind of top down structure within languages. So in England we will be taught how to pronounce the language which is other than the way in which it can be pronounced because the English language like all languages, like the Chinese languages can be pronounced in a number of ways and often the case when you would use a word like bestowed the way you pronounce it would force us to confront what it actually means and how it has been put together and I think that cuts in very well with this idea of the multi-polarity of identity in terms of how we come to understand it because often the case identity is always presented as a static medium but as you suggest it's one which if it's to be properly embedded has to be an enlightened medium. It has to be one which is based around self reflection and I guess in indigenous communities like in minority communities one of the real problems has been the sense in which existing practices are often presented as being the actual identity formation of that particular group without any proper reflection on how they come to be and I think this is part of the necessary progress that we need to make in liberation struggles. Thank you for your comments. I agree with you and sometimes when we talk about the topic of identity it is very difficult to talk because we also think Indigenous people have a layer of identity but I argue if in some situations the Indigenous people like teenagers they don't want to talk the topic of identity because they think the identity is so politic and they live in the modern society and sometimes they will show their identity but sometimes they don't they want to live in the same way and not to be identified in different situations and identified in different ways. So your comment let me think an interesting experience. Some Indigenous writers write the customs and they write traditions to make their clear identity but some of them don't like to do this they write the novel in common way so when we read this novel we can identify which one write this story and we see this is Indigenous writer so I think this is another tragedy because it is a tragedy as well thank you I think it is very interesting because we also want to clear the identity but some of them don't do this because for them maybe in my hope we want to be the same with others and have the equal right have an equal view point I remember last night you talked about your definition of what is Indigenous literature and your key defining point is it is written by Indigenous writers but if there is no Indigenous connection in the content does that still pass your test? Yes yes yes you wouldn't say that you won't force the writer to say particular kind of thing you have to talk about English afternoon tea but actually I think David does have a point there because in the English literature case often what is happening in England is English literature exists as English literature in the way you describe but then when a minority group also engages in it then they are expected to have their minority form of literature but at the same time you can't say they can't do it of course Catalyze us tragedy Thank you very much because this is an extension of yesterday's talk so can I combine the both talks and ask some questions first of all we did touch upon before the talk did deny that although the fundamental conclusion I can tell is this kind of the journey to search for who am I leads to this kind of future building of their own identity and a more constructive and also quite positive way but in this journey I only see men's voice and this is a very one-dimensional future building so if this is the case where is women's voice and I was you did mention one particular one and as a mother and as a grandmother not as a woman so can you elaborate a little bit what has been done or hasn't been done another question Thank you for your question I think this is an important question I think to ensure cultural identity is one way for Indigenous people to find the native resurgence and yesterday and today we heard a lot of stories from men right and sometimes in real situations writers not men the writers maybe we can think is yesterday we talked about although he write his mother and grandmother and his family are invoked by his marriage even though I think for women if it is very difficult to to give up their identity of Indigenous I have asked Awu because his family is clear but he said even though he always said he she is aborigines and then she said women so I argued maybe you can do you are women and then Indigenous how about men they never thought about that this is why I told the story of gender because it is the same situation for LGBT because in Taiwan LGBT is important issue sometimes the Indigenous people want to support this social movement but when they come back to their tribe they can't really tell their story because first they are Indigenous and then they are LGBT so I think this is interesting but when they are first Indigenous does that mean that in a sense Indigenous within their local community also being LGBT would come to be something else so of course you can be any number of things as one identity but if in the first identity those who are part of it would then say oh but then if you are Indigenous you can't be LGBT is that what you mean yes yes you know sometimes I think the culture of LGBT or the feminist is very different from the Indigenous culture a lot of tribes is father society and the women didn't do any judgment in the family most of them also do this so sometimes they want to talk about something in their works we hope in the future maybe they will be they will stress their families in their literature what is tradition is bad tradition is it worth keeping does it matter I don't know if this is a question or if I am just adding to the confusion but does the problem of identity actually come from the intersectionality of it when you have to choose between being from a certain ethnic identity and also then being a woman and then when you are already in a minority group it's harder to sort of let yourself choose that individual perspective as compared to the society which is anyways a small part of a bigger capitalistic wonderful picture of course it's context isn't it in a certain context it's important to be Indigenous but in other contexts it's more important to be a woman so I don't think it's necessarily only one or the other that's true and it depends on the situation the women are like now Biyu is a teacher and when he comes back home maybe I'm still but I think for your questions I think each one has a different identity to choose or be chosen the point is that within a minority grouping of whatever kind the identity only comes to be recognized when other people tell you about it because some black boys will say they only found out they were black when everyone noticed it when they were only encounter difference I don't believe it because you're usually fighting for the mic we did kind of rush you a little bit last time yes especially language today's focus is a little bit different so I don't know if I can phrase the question but of course today's talk is also very interesting there's two things that are occupying my mind one is literature as future building which certainly resonates with me if you look at the issue of the struggle for Irish independence it's totally bound up with literature the same in Scotland the same in Finland which only appeared in 1918 and a lot of that literature was seeking not just those three countries but it's quite a European wide phenomenon actually going back to the past I'm very often going back to the pre-Christian past because many people kind of feel that Christianity has been more harmful than good for us Europeans and a lot of the great European works of art I'm thinking of art now I'm thinking of a lot of Picasso that actually were created in outright defiance and opposition towards Christianity so I'm a little bit concerned because indigenous communities embracing monotheist religion is a bit like Turkey is voting for Christmas sounds a bit mixed up it's a very important idea that helps people to find a place and to proclaim their identity and not have it proclaimed for them by other people from somewhere else and the other thing was commentating what was the other thing that was Christianity yes that's two things because Christianity the traditional religions in Taiwan are shamanistic traditional religion in Korea is shamanistic and before Christianity all over Europe there were various forms of shamanism and indeed people are not aware of how persistent a lot of these beliefs have been and you know, take fire festivals which you have in Scotland we were down to one, Christianity almost stumped it out we were down to one particular festival but during the later 30th century when the grip, the hold that Christianity has had on society has relaxed a lot of space for the celebration of some of these beliefs not necessarily going back to the beliefs but the celebration of some of these beliefs to research to come back I want to reply with you thank you for your comment I think you mentioned an important phenomenon is Christianity in this region about the indigenous people like feminist I think this issue is also important to discuss in Taiwan most of indigenous people are Christians they also have the Christmas Day but something very interesting they sing the song with their mother tongue even the music is from the west but the language is mother tongue so it is the mix situation in the tribe so I think this is a good example to focus on the mix culture because indigenous people don't give up their mother tongue don't give up their local tradition but they are Christians they have the ceremony to celebrate so they use the suitable way to be an indigenous Christian so I argue if maybe the first they are indigenous or the first they are Christian you know sometimes in the topic we talk about the first identity is indigenous people and then he is a woman but I argue maybe the first identity is our Christian of course I am not suggesting that influences from other cultures is a living thing and it does indeed come from Latin the same root is viticulture agriculture just what concerns me is when one dominating a form absorbs another then it is all lost that is what worries me two or three or four or five or many more things coming together speaking from my living personal experience which is mainly in Central America and Brazil it is extraordinary how you can get hybrid religions so the Christianity has given way to voodoo and connoble in Brazil and so on and in their places of worship you can see the primitive chanting going on in the church they often take the seats out and they just sit on the floor and so on and strangely enough in my knowledge of southern Mexico the Catholic church has more or less accommodated to this it is the Protestants who fly in from Texas with their air mail from God and so on they are the ones who really try and resist it and they want a monotheistic Christianity but of course the hybrid is extremely fascinating with its fetishism and voodooism and its own symbolism and music as well could I come back on a further question that I thought the story of the rainbow part of your talk was quite fascinating I was curious about the you talked about the film Arifu what the response to that was like when we're thinking about how many indigenous people we've got two quite distinct groups those who live in the city and those that don't and do you have any sense how that was received was it roundly condemned by certain groups in Taiwan this is something that you followed yes and I think this is maybe this is the issue and recently appeared you know indigenous LGBT this topic this group is the least in the tribe and in the city but they don't identify to others they are LGBT because if they do this like the movie Arifu they want to the character want to change their social their sex change to a girl a boy from a girl and the movie shows is when he come back to the tribe he feel a lot of conflict from his father his family, his tribe and even the tradition I think although it is the same situation in the group in Taiwan LGBT group in Taiwan but for indigenous people most of them have a tool to challenge the Christian religion maybe this is big difficult for them thank you for your presentations your presentation gives me ideas about how I can do my research that's really great I'm interested in you talk about indigenous people and Christian I'm not really know the situation in Taiwan so these indigenous people became the Christian just in the urban area or also in the tribal area in tribal and urban all of all area so why they became Christians not the other religions a lot of research about it because what I think most important reason is indigenous people in maybe 50 years before they are very poor because in Taiwan society we treat them differently so they have a no financial and they have a good material for them to have a good life so at first at the beginning the Christian give some money, some food for them and I heard a lot of people say at first they go to the church because they will give their food and their money, their clothes like people in Taiwan in 1950 at first this is the main reason and then you will find some pastor use their language, use their mother tongue language to teach them the Bible they write their mother language and to try to close to them then the pastor will build help them to reconstruct their tradition, like language, like house like some culture so if we say the Christian is bad I think this is maybe for LGBT they don't like this region but for most of the indigenous people the Christian help them a lot of things even though until now indigenous people admire a lot of pastors and the pastors spend a lot of years to together with these indigenous people they build a close relationship with each other and I think you remind me why indigenous people didn't close to the Buddha or Muslim maybe this is about the history of the region, especially Christian into the China and into the Taiwan this is about the history about it in 1950 a lot of Christians come to China and come to Taiwan to share ideas of God and they go to the tribe because this pastor believes in tribe, they will find really people that God want to choose we did have a talk on religious conversion in indigenous communities and I tried to rack my brains to go back in time but do you remember does it really get going in the late Qing dynasty it's quite a historical process but I'm not entirely sure we have missionaries coming to Taiwan in the late 19th century and through into the Japanese colonial era but why it's more effective in indigenous communities is still something I need to go back and look at Scott Simon's paper did you want to add something on this? thank you I just want to say that I find your way of speaking English perfectly normal you are easier to understand and adapt it thank you on that nice compliment continue our discussion over some wine