 Why don't we get started, Senator Benning? I'm going to introduce the committee first, Senator Joe Benning, as it's handed a ticket box. He's from Caledonia County. Senator Philip Baruth is from Chifland County. Senator Alice Lincoln from Winter County. Senator Jeanette White from Winter County. And Senator Tim Ash, former member of the committee and the president brought time to the Senate. He's from Chifland County and your own Mark McDonald's. Senator from Orange County is here in the audience. And I think there may be a couple of House members here. If they are, feel free to identify yourselves. I don't see them. We're going to pick the first three names. I'm Dick Sears from Bennington County. Sorry, I forgot who I was. If you come up to speak, don't move the mic. Because there's all kinds of media mics there. So Senator Benning has picked three numbers. He's going to call the numbers and those will be the first three speakers. And then we'll just continue picking them right through. We thought this was the fairest way. We've had criticism in the past because people show up, sign up to speak, and then they never get seen because the first 40 or 50 get to speak and people who drove four or five hours don't get to. One of the complaints or good things is that we're here in Randolph rather than in Montpelier. The reason we chose Randolph is because it's on the interstate and it's easier for people from the southern part of state, the northern part of state to get to. Frequently we hold hearings in Montpelier. People from Bennington, people from Bennington don't get to Montpelier. And if they do, they can never sign up because they're too late. So we just thought this was a little fair and we'll see how it goes. And we really want to thank the folks at Vermont Technical College for hosting this. First off, we're going to do this three at a time. So as I called the numbers, I'm going to read the last three numbers on your ticket. Because I'm told that the first three are all identical for everybody's tickets here tonight. The first number to be called, I'm going to ask you to come up here and have a seat in this chair right here. The next two numbers after that will be right in the front row here next to Mike Farron. If you have any questions about how that's working, Michael will certainly let you know how it's going to be done. But I think we'll take the next person who's closest to the microphones and then call the next one after that is the person who's on deck. So the first person up to speak tonight is ticket number 111. I can put you back in the bin if you'd like. The next ticket number is 100. No, you can come on up and have a seat in 111. You can have a seat right here. You're just going to wait till you head. No, you can sit down. 100, you're going to have a seat up here next to Michael. And ticket number 055 will be right on deck. We will remind you that when you are speaking, if you could first identify yourself and tell us at least the town of where you're from. Okay, just let me know when you're ready. We are ready. My name is Edward Gilbert Jr. I'm from Berrytown, just outside of Montpelier about nine miles. I also was a candidate that ran in the 2018 midterm election cycle versus Bernie Sanders. But I just wanted to say is sorry. Thank you. There's several bills, of course, that being a veteran pro 2a life NRA member. I feel a few of these are very intrusive. I as a father of two sons and one daughter and very concerned about their future. The ability for them to enjoy the great outdoors of hunting, fishing, target shooting. And I feel Vermont is one of the few open carry states that has one of the best track records when it comes to firearm safety. Teaching our children at a very young age, how to handle weapons appropriately, how to lock them up, how to keep the ammunition locked away in secure areas. And I just feel that I'd like to keep that tradition going in Vermont. As a dad that cares for his sons very much and one daughter, you don't want anything to happen. And of course, I'd rather empower them on how to handle it versus falling in a bad situation where they don't have the ability to protect themselves. 30 seconds. Being a dad that has traveled a lot. So I love this little state. I love our traditions. I would like them to have the same opportunities that I had as a kid growing up. And that's about where I stand. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Take a 086 if you'd come on up. Hi. Hey. Good evening. My name is Laurie Emerson. I'm the executive director of the National Alliance on Mental Illness of Vermont. And NAMI Vermont is the independent Vermont chapter of the National Alliance on Mental Illness, a statewide nonprofit grassroots volunteer organization comprised of family members, friends, and individuals affected by mental illness. Our mission is to provide education, support, and advocacy to individuals and family members living with mental illness. And NAMI Vermont would like to comment on Bill S-22 that your committee is reviewing as it relates to a waiting period for the purchase of firearms. In Vermont, approximately one in five people live with a mental health condition. One in 25 live with a serious mental illness such as schizophrenia, major depression, or bipolar disorder. And on average, one person dies by suicide every three days in the state. Vermont had 118 suicides in 2017. More than 10 times as many people die by suicide than homicide. Suicide is a community health issue and the good news is that suicide can often be prevented. And that's why we are calling on you as Vermont lawmakers to pass common sense legislation that will address suicide prevention by creating a waiting period for the purchase of firearms and reducing access to lethal means through safe storage methods. It is important to note that 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. However, unlike almost every other method of suicide, use of a firearm in a suicide attempt is almost always lethal and leaves little opportunity for intervention. According to the Center for Disease Report, researchers found that more than one half of people who died by suicide did not have a known diagnosed mental health condition at the time of death. And suicide is rarely caused by any single factor. Other factors that can contribute to the risk of suicide include relationship issues or lost substance misuse, physical health issues, and problems as well. Thank you very much. Do you want to turn your testimony in? Yes, I did email it all ready to the committee. Great, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Next up in the front seats, 056. Hi. Hi, how are you? Good. Hi, Dick. How are you? Hi, my name is Rodney Sher. I'm from Duxbury. I'm here against some of these bills. I mean, I had a nephew that committed suicide with a gun. I had a cousin that committed suicide with pills. If somebody wants to commit suicide, they're going to do it. And I don't think it's right to punish everybody for some people's mistakes. That's not right. I have guns in my house. I like guns. I have grandson who I bought guns for. And you guys are going to punish him. Like, we went and bought a gun for him. We were riding around. We found the gun we liked. We bought it. We bought a home for him. Either locked up. They're safe. They're not. They're not out in the open. But to take and put this through to make a 48 hour wait period and punish us for people's other people's actions is wrong. To me, it just doesn't make any sense. If people are going to commit suicide. I mean, I feel bad. The people that testified the day I'm up here for their son. But these people should have, in my opinion, they should have been more attentive to their son's needs and seen some of this stuff. And just, but it just doesn't make any sense to punish everybody. So I'm against these bills wholeheartedly. That's really all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you very much. Take it number 112. You are on deck. 112. I'm 86. Yeah. I feel 86 today, but that's number 86. You too. Some days. 112 should be in the front row in the audience here next to Michael Farron. Come on up and have a seat up here. I'm Paul Gross from Jericho. I'd like to speak against waiting periods. I think that's a pretty poor strategy for suicide prevention. I would argue that most of the people who commit suicide with a firearm have had the firearm for longer than the waiting period is ever going to slow things down. Firearms, especially you're dealing with veterans who have a two to one ratio of firearms of suicide. Most, a lot of veterans that I know have firearms and have had them for years. So to put a waiting period in place to prevent somebody from committing suicide is pretty irrational. That's about it. Thank you very much. Take it 047. You're on deck. Eddie Edson from Randolph Center. Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak. As a person of faith and a concerned citizen, I do support H-159, S-22, S-26, and S-72. I would like to share with you this anecdote. At a workshop about gun violence that I helped to plan, I chatted afterwards with someone who attended who did not share my views. He expressed concern that the legislation I support would provide a slippery slope to removing guns from all citizens. And I said that neither I nor anyone I know has an agenda to take away people's rights to guns. What I said, can anybody like myself do to help bridge this huge gap of understanding? His response was that it would help a lot for me to say out loud what I just said. That in his experience, when he states his fear, people on the other side responded to him and taking away people's guns would be bad. So that is mainly what I want to say tonight. I do not want to remove the rewrite of any American citizen who wants a gun to have a gun. But I strongly support legislation that decreases the possibility that a depressed person or mentally unstable person will impulsively take his or her life or someone else's when a waiting period could make a difference. And I support legislation that would help prevent accidents by children who end up with guns in their hands. Surely in Vermont, we can veer from the present national reality of distancing ourselves from those with whom we disagree and instead find the common ground we need to keep our citizens safe and simultaneously protect the right of hunters and those who feel a gun is an important protection for themselves and their families. Thank you. Thank you, buddy. Take it 0-5-9, you're on deck. Sir? Yep. You're next. Come on up. Come on up. The last ticket I called is going over to those seats. Hi. My name is Arthur Vento. I'm from Burlington. Oh, would that help? Yeah. Okay. My name is Arthur Vento. I'm from Burlington, Vermont. I really didn't intend to speak here today. However, as I listened to this, I realized that I do not honestly believe that there's anything that you can do to prevent someone who's hell bent on committing suicide from committing suicide to start with. My wife committed suicide with a handgun. The only thing I can tell you about that is whether you understand this or anybody behind me understands that or not, she was going to kill herself. She killed herself in the quickest, most humane, humane way possible. I know of at least seven other women in Vermont who have drank Drano. Most of them are going through their eighth, ninth, or tenth operation. They have no teeth. Their internal organs are shot. Firearms to a lot of people seem like they're horrible instruments of destruction. Believe me, there are instruments of destruction that make firearms look insignificant. If you should not have a firearm, I have no idea. I believe that everybody should have a firearm. I don't have a problem with that. I grew up with firearms. I grew up with firearms in a town that understood it, that no longer seems to understand it, that no longer listens to me. I live in a town where I know that I am taxed with no representation whatsoever. And more and more I'm seeing a state where I'm taxed with no representation whatsoever. At least firearms are a civil rights issue. Every firearms law that has ever been introduced was introduced to make a significant other. As a firearms owner, I'm treated as a second-class citizen. I'm not a second-class citizen. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Thank you for speaking. Ticket number 103, you're on deck. My name is Bruce McClain. I am from Peacham. I am a gun owner. I love hunting. I believe in the hunting culture. But what I don't believe in is standing by and doing nothing about the suicide rate in this country and in particular in the state. So I support S-22. I believe that most suicides are an impulsive act and that a 48-hour waiting period will prevent some people from taking that impulsive act. And I also believe that a 48-hour waiting period will not impact on my ability to go out into the woods and hunt nor anyone else in this state who is a law-abiding citizen. Thank you very much. Thank you, Bruce. Ticket number 129, you're on deck. Sir? I am Stephen Reynes of Callis-Vermont. I am an attorney and an ordained deacon at the Episcopal Church. In the 1980s, I served three terms in the House and was elected to the Senate in 1988. I was the lead sponsor of the attached S-98, which proposed a 10-day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun. The bill was referred to the Judiciary Committee. Although S-98 had eight bipartisan co-sponsors and was endorsed by the Vermont Chiefs of Police Association, the committee did not even hold an introductory hearing. I commend your committee for taking up S-22. I've read the news reports and listened to a video excerpt of the testimony of Alyssa and Rob Black, the parents of 23-year-old Andrew Black before your committee. I've seen the photo of Andrew at work on December 3rd, 2018, looking relaxed and content. A guy I would enjoy talking with, hiking with, having a beer with. Three days later, he bought a gun at 11.30 and was dead at four o'clock. I can't help but wonder if S-98 had become law whether Andrew would be alive. His parents testified to you that they believed Andrew would be alive if a waiting period had been in effect based on their son's behavior and his electronic messages. I can't help but wonder if Professor Cheryl Hanna would be alive if a waiting period had been in effect. When I was getting information for S-98, there was an instance where someone had walked into a gun shop in Brattleboro, bought a gun, walked outside, committed suicide on the sidewalk. From my experience, I think many people's experience, the world can look very different a few days later. A seemingly unrelated conversation with a co-worker, small acts of kindness with a stranger, interactions, unpredictable things can make a huge difference. Enactment of a waiting period is good public policy that would save lives. It could also make a heartfelt difference for those left behind. Thank you. Take a number one, one, three. You're on deck. Hello, my name is Mike Stoddard. I live in Brookfield, Vermont. Sadly to say, I'm not a native Vermonter, but I'm a retired police officer from Massachusetts. I've seen many, many situations for suicide. And I believe that if someone has the mind to do it, they're probably going to try to do it. A two-day waiting period, it may stop one or two, but I don't think it's going to stop a total number of them. As far as keeping guns locked up in your house, I know it's a real hard situation if it came to a point where someone tried to break into your house or attack you. It's a mind-blowing thing to try to handle that alone with a gun, but having to go and try to get one out and find bullets and load it and all at the same time is next to impossible. So as far as protection goes, it's far better off to be proactive as far as that goes. I think that's, I've said enough. I thank you for letting me speak. Thank you. Ticket 0-5-1, you're on deck. Good afternoon. I would urge you to, Bob Atkinson from Wells, Vermont. I would urge you to oppose S-22 because it will not achieve its stated goal to put a barrier up to deter Syracides. The good doctor to testify to the last hearing uses examples, children that were unsuccessful. No one interviewed those who were successful for obvious reasons to ascertain the strength of their feelings or their plans. Someone I know seriously considered suicide 30 years ago. They said, and I quote, suicide is a long-term thought and not a spur-of-the-moment decision. The plan is carefully thought out and will be changed if a problem, like a waiting period, is imposed where they will choose another method. The path to the decision is a combination of many, perhaps small, occurrences that build into a feeling of worthlessness or hopelessness. The feeling of uselessness or not fitting in whether real or perceived is a powerful feeling which is debilitating. To believe people you know would be better off without you is a powerful incentive to commit suicide. The root problem is mental illness. Few people want to talk about this including those with the problem, which is why they hide it so well. Our society has developed many contributing factors, some of which are the disintegration of the family, both parents have to work and then assigning the teaching of values to babysitters and teachers at our state-run schools. The absence of respect, consideration and courtesy toward others that formerly were taught at home and the lack of consequences for misbehaving have produced several generations lacking these important values. These values were the grease that reduced friction between members of our society. Nowhere is this exhibited more clearly than in social media. In 2017, 5,237 patient days were spent in our state's emergency rooms for vermontus with mental problems because there were no beds available in mental health facilities. We have public announcements on TV to stop smoking or study math and science. None for suicide prevention. We have worked to remove the stigma attached to various communities. Why not mental disorders? These people did not choose to have these problems. If we do not provide the help these people need, they will cure the problem themselves permanently. Thank you. Thank you. Take it number 050, you're on deck. Hello. My name is Scott Chapman. I reside in Moncton, Vermont. What we have before us is a pure civil rights discussion whether or not our right on the Second Amendment in Article 16 of the Vermont Constitution is a right as equal to our other individual rights. Everybody, a lot of people in the world say that our rights are not to be limited in any way except reasonable measures upon your right to keep and bear arms. The restrictions on the rights of arms has been used throughout this country since the 1690s to keep a portion of the population subservient to the major portion of the population. It was used prior to the Civil War and the passing of the 14th Amendment to keep people of color enslaved. After the Civil War, it was used in the Jim Crow era to keep people of color subservient to white people. This is horrible, horrible. And it continues. Everything in the Jim Crow area of the United States was done on a health and welfare basis. Segregated restrooms, segregated washrooms, segregated restaurants, lunch counters, et cetera. And yet again, we are being told that we need to limit your rights for the health and welfare of others. This is nothing but discrimination for anybody that wants to exercise their Second Amendment rights. It is segregation for the Second Amendment and it is wrong. Can you imagine if we asked for a 48-hour waiting period for your Fifth Amendment rights? How about the media here? How about they have a 48-hour waiting period to produce the 6 o'clock news and have to ask government permission to exercise their First Amendment rights? This is purely a civil rights case and nothing but. This is not about firearms. APPLAUSE Can we hold down on the applause, please? I respect everybody here. Everybody here? No. You can't? You don't respect everybody here? Please. In order to try to give everybody here that would like to speak the time to speak, it's very helpful if we hold off on the applause. I know people are tempted to do otherwise, but we'd like to get everybody time to speak that would like to speak. Ticket number 118, you are now on deck. I'm Bruce Lindner from Colchester. I asked this committee not to pursue further consideration of the proposed requirements of S-22. A burgeoning, liberal, progressive ideology is attempting to reduce their constitutional second rights to the level of a privilege versus a right. This should set off alarm bells in everyone's mind. Every time there is a single incident involving a firearm seems to incentivize legislators to punish all gun owners by enacting that one more gun law. Firearm ownership is treated as a pariah and not with the respect afforded by our Second Amendment. Anti-gun groups in Vermont say the Second Amendment needs to be repealed or brought into the 21st century as no longer relevant. A single incident in 2018 is an impetus for the bill's sponsors to implement a waiting period. Single incident does not achieve the formidable benchmark for controlling all of the citizens for one person's misdeeds or indiscretions. There were 41,550 completed firearm transfers in 2018. 99.9976% of those transactions would not have benefited from the proposed waiting period. CDC, John Hopkins, Duke and others have stated there is no conclusive evidence that a waiting period reduces crimes or suicide. Legislators need to step up and deal with the undisputed systemic causes of suicide, illicit drugs, opioids and so on. Guns don't precipitate people to commit suicide. The storage provision of this bill is in direct conflict with the Supreme Court ruling in Heller that struck down as unconstitutional a requirement that all firearms, including rifle shotguns, be kept unloaded and disassembled and bound by a trigger lock. The Court ruled that to lock up firearms inherently inhibits the immediate access for self-defense and the storage requirement is to be kept in place. I sent a copy to the paper. Ticket number 049 EuroPick. Hi, my name is Jim O'Malley and I'm from Ludlow, Vermont. I had the privilege last year of attending several sessions at the legislature and seeing how the sausage is actually made. It was interesting and enlightening. I appreciate your time. To the parents of Mr. Black, suicide is a horrible thing. I was a former mental health worker. I worked in the Land and Lessons Center and a man that I worked with, the young man, killed himself after treatment. No one saw it coming. I will say to you that I researched this issue and I found that this legislative body actually was involved in some pro-suicide legislation not long ago. I think it was 2017 in Vermont and if you look up the state figures, I encourage all of you to do that. Look up the state figures on how many people availed themselves of that. So now we have a young man who has tragically taken his own life but we're going to restrict the rights of how many thousands of Vermonters because of this tragedy. When on the other side of the coin we've decided that people who've decided that in their lives can do so if they consult a doctor. I have a problem with that as a gun owner. I would also ask you to consider the women of Vermont and the vulnerable people of Vermont because there are such people who are in situations where a firearm can mean the difference for them between life and death and a 48 hour waiting period while it seems like a good idea right now may not be a great idea for that woman who is facing a potentially abusive spouse who may want to hurt them and in many of the areas of Vermont, mine included, we're pretty far away from somebody getting there in time to intervene and interestingly enough, a firearm is a forced multiplier. It just is. And that woman can defend herself with that better than she can without it. I'd rather she didn't have to wait. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Zero, nine and five. You're on deck. I don't have anything written. I spoke, my name is Rob Mazza from Colchester. I spoke with a friend of mine today who two weeks ago lost his daughter to a heroin overdose. Do you guys know how many people have died in the last year in Vermont from drug overdoses? You made me aware of it today. Rob, you've got to pull close to that mic. 108 in the state of Vermont. Do you guys have any laws on the books ready to go that will punish a drug dealer and lock them up permanently? I mean, we know that they're pretty much let out. They're let out on bail. They're not kept incarcerated. So I wonder what is it you're looking for? I guess I really just don't know what you're looking for. Wouldn't we spend more time protecting the larger amount of deaths, which death is bad? I get it. But Mr. Bruce, like you're introducing the bill to make sure my firearms are safe in my home in the safety of my home. How are you going to enforce that? That's my home. I'm a responsible gun owner. I have safes. But as one gentleman mentioned, if someone's kicking down my door or coming to rob me, what am I going to do? Make him wait until I can get my firearm. There's only my wife and I that live there. You're crossing this threshold to the sanctity of my home. Now maybe protecting people when I drive my car going over the speed limit. I'm sharing that road. I don't share that home with anybody but myself and my wife. So I guess I didn't write anything. So that's all I got. Thank you. Ticket 105. You're on deck. My name is Ed Wilson. I'm from Morrisville. I'd like to offer my condolences to Andrew Black's family and also suggest that they honor and memorialize Andrew in a way that doesn't infringe on others' rights. I believe that a group or organization that works directly with young people in crisis would be much more effective. Pro-gun people are often perplexed when facts and reason are ignored by legislators. We must understand that there are people who believe that they should have guns and they will do everything possible to make it more difficult for you to buy, own or use a gun. Last year during the House discussions of the anti-gun bills we were treated to the spectacle of a legislator who raised stood to speak, raised his finger and said, one life. One life. If I can save one life, he would not feel badly about infringing upon our constitutional rights. He didn't care about the constitution. He just wanted to feel good and show us what a good person he was. Waiting periods, magazine bands, universal background checks are all feel-good measures that do nothing to protect our safety. We must not close the anti-gun waiting periods and I support the pro-gun bills. Thank you. Ticket number 105, this is your last chance to come on down and be on the deck. Ticket 105. Ticket 057, you're on deck. My name is Captain Tom Malanchuk. I'm the Master Mariner in the U.S. Merchant Marine. I've been about everywhere. Different war zones, was in a revolution. I've seen it all and I've seen what happens when the government has all the firearms. But I want to talk to S22 and the safe storage. I agree with the last speaker that the safe storage is just wrong. I'm going to tell you a short story and I hope I can do it in the time. About a week ago, I live in Randolph Center. My wife and I were asleep at 2 o'clock in the morning. My dog started barking. Someone was pounding on our door. Came out of a dead sleep. Had my firearm on my nightstand. Grabbed it, went downstairs, a black lurking person was there talking away. Obviously drunk. Don't know what else. He was on something else. He wanted me to come out and help him with a vehicle he had off the road. So much to my wife's chagrin I said I would. But I had my firearm and when I stepped out that was the first thing he saw. I said I had my firearm with you. That's smart. Smith and Wesson are my best friends. So I walk up the road sure enough he was off the road. I pulled him out. The next day I found out he was a convicted felon. He was a druggie. He's been in jail many a time. He's at local thief. And thank God I had my pistol ready in my room and not where it was locked up and I might have dropped the key or couldn't find it in the middle of the night. Thank you very much for hearing. Thank you very much. Ticket number 089 if you'd come on up and ticket number 116 if you'd also come up. People could get a little closer to the mic. We would also recommend when you do get as close to the mic as you can because I think that decreases the amount of feedback that you've got. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to support S22. I'm Christopher Ashley from Norwich. We have heard much tonight regarding gun and nose rights and the Second Amendment. It's important to recall that the ultimate purpose of a gun is to project a bullet into a target, a game animal or a person. The results of the action with the bullseye, venison for the table, protection in a threatening situation or tragedy when someone takes his or her own life has an accident or shoots another. In 2008 the Supreme Court ruled in a heller case that people have a right to own a gun for self-defense but it also ruled that this right is not unlimited and the government can place reasonable restrictions on that right. Public safety requires my safety requires reasonable gun safety laws and S22 provides these laws. We have all heard from the public health officials that waiting periods for gun purchases reduce the number of people who take their own lives and for that, for most, the motivation for suicide doesn't reoccur. We are also aware that secure storage of firearm prevents tragedy particularly regarding Vermont's teen suicide rate which is the highest in New England. I would like to add a bit of information for you to consider. As an elementary school teacher and principal with 35 years experience in Vermont on numerous occasions students would report to me at show and tell during a discussion of personal safety that they knew where their parents hid their gun. The fact is these young children were very aware and very savvy of how to access their weapons. When I reported to parents they would always be shocked that your children knew where the gun was. These self safe storage rules are an important step to keep all of us safe particularly our children. Thank you. Thank you. Still missing. Ticket 089 You are on deck along with ticket 006 So we should have in the front row ticket 089 and ticket number 006 I'll take your spot. My name is Sabah the Armstrong and I'm from Glover, Vermont. I ask that no action be taken on S22 this session because one hearing with a few hours of public testimony by a handful of voters is not nearly enough to weigh the interests and wants of this state as a whole especially when discussing constitutional rights as well as an integral part of our Vermont heritage. I'll read the opening clause of Article 16 of Vermont's constitution as many members of our legislature seem to forget its words. The people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state. The two conditions proposed in S22 are a direct violation of this article. Your bill suggests that when I'm in my home if a firearm is not on my person it must be locked in safe storage or rendered incapable of being fired. How am I to defend myself to someone break in if I must unlock a safe, get to and load my weapon or remove a trigger guard in just a few seconds? As a woman and a mother there are a few times when at home I'm probably or safely wear my firearm and complete needed tasks. As for the 48 hour waiting period you've heard testimony saying it would reduce suicide rates but a study done by two PhDs and published by the US National Library of Medicine shows different. First off, other states like Vermont they don't have the fact most of their people don't already own firearms when they commit suicide. Second, the study looked at each of the gun laws and it stated that a waiting period seemed to reduce suicides with combined with other gun laws but when they calculated for the effects of poverty, population, density, age, race and ethnicity, the results were virtually unchanged and those are in states where the population is already less likely to already own firearms. So let's look at Vermont statistics from 2011 to 2016 as published by VPR I wrote them down into suicides and homicides and then further into age, gun type, male versus female. Consistently over 80% of firearms are suicides arriving then over 70% were over the age of 30 so let's look at firearms suicides by people under 30 and see how these suicides might be affected by these bills. So the average number of suicides by people 20 and under is only two and a half per year. I expanded the number of people who may be affected by a 48 hour waiting period to include anyone between 21 and 30. Can I? Yeah. Well I have a full... I have a... I'm emailing them. I have all the charts. Good. Thank you. Ticket 006 Do you here? Yes, I am. Okay. Hi. Ticket 125 and 099 Come on up and join us. That's 125 and 099 Hi there. Thank you for taking my comments. I am Timothy Moynihan. I live just down the hill here in Randolph, Vermont. I'm here tonight to express my opposition to the storage requirement in bill S22. Freedom and unity. Vermont's state model it's a great model. It reminds us that there's a balance between our obligation to the community and our personal freedoms. I think suicide is a very serious concern and yet I do not think the bill S22 strikes a reasonable balance between personal freedom and community good. This law seems to imply that if I'm in my own home and I leave my firearm on the desk while I go to another room, I may be committing a crime punishable by imprisonment. What if I do not have a safe at home? Yet I locked my home when I left home. Would my home be considered a secure container or would I be eligible for imprisonment? My point is that this bill, if made law would fail at least two tests. It is not clear enough and it is an unreasonable burden on the private citizen. In other words it is not a reasonable balance of freedom and unity. Based on this and other reasons I ask you to oppose Bill S22. I also ask you to support Bill S1, S2 and S13. Thank you very much. Thank you. Ticket 087, you're on deck. Also very good from Springfield. Mr. and Mrs. Black's testimony at the State House on February 28th they spoke about their son Andrew being in a black hole and if he hadn't had access to a gun for only 48 more hours he would have had a chance to come out of his depression and not take his own life. There's absolutely no way of knowing this. It may have taken him two days, two months or he may have never emerged from his black hole. People who are bent on committing suicide plan and take steps to accomplish their goal. He could have easily waited the 48 hours and then killed himself. What is not vague is when a person has been seriously threatened by a spouse, ex-spouse coworker, rabbit animal this is a very tangible, dangerous situation. When you need to defend your life and well-being you need to do so now and in the best way possible not in 48 hours. I believe the right to self-protection of your life and your family's life trumps a vague notion that someone may or may not commit suicide if he or she has more time to think about it. In New Hampshire the Senate is considering SB 282 FN which would allow schools to teach suicide prevention and educate teachers to identify warning signs of a suicidal student. Senator Ruth Ward states, quote, educating teachers to identify these warning signs is a critical first step to prevent suicides among our student population who may not have the support networks to cope with the pressures many teenagers face. This is a wonderful idea that would have long-term beneficial effects without restricting anyone's constitutional rights. This is a program that everyone can get behind and support. We in Vermont should follow New Hampshire's lead. Please do not further go any further with SB 22 272. Both these bills succeed only in creating victims and put unnecessary burdens on honest law-abiding citizens. And I actually brought the Thank you. The article. Through what ticket number you are. 99. Hi. Ticket 101. You're on deck. Pardon? Okay. My name is Greg and I'm from Mugton. As a lifelong Vermonter and sportsman, I'm also a 100 education instructor, a gunsmith and a community support worker for people who have developmental disabilities and mental health issues. So I kind of bridge both sides of the spectrum. I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that we do not now nor did we a year ago have a gun problem in this state. What we have is a people problem. We have a problem that the legislature does not address things in a way that will actually help people and too many people are putting forward emotional, feel good legislation. And we have to stop that or we're not going to ever accomplish anything. The state of Vermont has not been in compliance with properly mental illness. People who have been adjudicated as mentally defective to the FBI NICS system I think since the day it went online and I realize at this point it's going to cost a lot of money to do that but your universal background check you passed last year means nothing until you get that done. What we have here are people who have mental illness issues who need help and they need help through the schools they need help through the community a waiting period on a firearm I mean if you look at the last 10 years how many times someone has bought a firearm and committed suicide the same day. I think we know it's probably there's probably only one out there but what we need to do is we need to realize that we need to help the people because if it's not a firearm I can go buy a bottle of Tylenol for $5 and swallow the whole bottle and I'm going to be just as dead as if I used a firearm. Thank you. Thank you. You're going to go over there. Okay. Second 108 you're on that. I'm Devin Craig Plainfield Vermont I'm representing the very fishing game club 700 plus members. It's not in favor of S-22 waiting periods will cause major problems. For 37 years our club has sponsored an annual gun show it is by fire and major fundraiser we have donated a lot of money and time in programs which are beneficial to the community. A waiting period would be the end of the gun show as it depends mostly on spontaneous buys. It would severely curtail the income of the 80 plus vendors who count us every year. Their employees would also lose much needed income to local businesses such as restaurants, hotels, motels and advertising services. It would stop the collection of substantial fees and taxes for the city of Barrie and the state of Vermont. This would happen in several communities in Vermont. God knows Vermont needs all the business it can get. The waiting period would not have a major preventative effect on suicides. Firearms account for 50% of all suicides most of which are planned. A waiting period would only delay the inevitable. I witness most of Mr. and Mrs. Black's testimony. The planned suicide of their son is tragic. I know my father and my only brother committed suicide by firearms. I firmly believe their suicides were inevitable. Suicide is not normal. It is abnormal. It's a mental health issue of which we all struggle to deal with. Health care experts agree that preventing suicides is very hard to do. We also have heard the mantra, but if it saves one life, consider this highly possible scenario. A woman has a relief of abuse order served on her often violent husband. She wants protection but came by a gun for 48 or more hours. In the meantime the husband kills her. A life was lost. It works both ways. The second part of S-22 would require all firearms to be locked up in households. Not only is this highly unforeseeable and spearly handled by rights. Thank you. Ticket 108, are you here? I'm a little confused about S-22. Can I just stop you for a second? Ticket 106, you are on deck along with ticket 044. If you could identify yourself for the record. Roger Carroll, I live in Brattleboro. I'm a little confused about this. Your concern about suicides is a little strange because on the one hand I live in a state that allows physician assisted suicide. You allow physician assisted suicide and you are so concerned about suicide. So that's a little odd right there. Second of all, the storage requirement has no provision. How do we enforce that? Especially when gun owners store their firearms and lock them away anyhow. I travel out of state quite a bit. I don't want to come back and face my own firearms. My firearms are disabled. They are locked away. I do it anyhow. So why bother putting a law in when most people who have any common sense are not going to leave them unattended and able to be fired? Little strange guys. That's all I'm going to say. You know what ticket number you are. Ticket 106, are you here? Ticket 106. To have down ticket 115. Ticket 126. 115 and 126. Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Michael Morgan from the town of Milton. I'm here primarily to discuss my dissatisfaction with S22. Vermont is one of the top three safest states in the United States. We do not have a gun problem in this state. I'm tired of what I call knee-jerk politics that only impact law-abiding gun owners. Like the ones that were instituted last year, the bills that we saw signed by the governor. My concerns are as follows. I guess I should say that I guess they're semi-questions. I don't necessarily expect them to be answered, but just for food for thought. Again, some of this is redundant, but I'm going to still state it. Why do I need to be dictated on the storage of my firearms? My home is safe. It has an alarm system. And I dictate how those guns are taken care of in my safe even my home. Why do we have to consider it a 48-hour waiting period to purchase a gun? These individuals have been fully vetted by the next check, the 4473 form, by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. If this isn't good enough, what is? Maybe we need to be talking to our national level of politicians if that's not good enough, but I believe it is. Because that is the top law agency in this country. Should we be looking at a 48-hour waiting period to buy a car to stop drunk-driving? I don't think we would want to see that. Bottom line is I will not be fooled by this slippery slope. We should not be encroaching on our Vermont traditions. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Ticket number 119. Come on down. You're on deck. Hang on just a second. Let me see if we can do something. Try to control the sound system. I'm Wayne Townsend of Bourne, Vermont. A bill forcing people to lock their guns up in our homes would make us weak. And you're using child safety as your agenda to control our rights. Well, my children's safety is the reason I'm fighting to protect our gun rights. With the rise in crime and home invasions, is the biggest reason we need our Article 16 right to bear arms to defend ourselves and the ones we love. If when someone breaks into our homes, what would we do under this new Ponzi scheme of a law? Tell said intruder to wait right there. I have to go unlock my gun safe to be able to get my gun to defend myself and my children before you kill us all. As a parent, it is my responsibility to teach my children the safe do's and don'ts of Safe Fire Arms and the ones we love. I teach do's and don'ts of Safe Fire Arm Handling. I have three adult children that hunt and have arms, not one time have any of them ever mishandled a firearm. I have one child left in my home that is six years old and have started teaching her already safe handling with an unload empty BB gun. I love each and every one of my children, so I ask, please don't take our way of life and or rights to defend ourselves. Please vote no to these unconstitutional gun bills Wayne Townsend, Buffalo, Vermont. Ticket 119 are you here? Last call. Seeing no one ticket 097 come on down. Ticket 002 come on down. I have nothing prepared but ladies and gentlemen my wife my wife is a my name is Jack Friedman I live in Danville, Vermont I lived for 35 years in Island Pond, Vermont. My wife is a GAL in the court system. Your 48 hour waiting period strikes me is damaging its unintentional consequences. She deals with a lot of battered women representing their children in court as an advocate for the children. A lot of it's drug related some of it's just plain old violence and this 48 hour waiting period you know that when a woman has been threatened several times sometimes it's only once if she feels threatened she should have the right to go to a gun shop and passing all the requirements purchase that firearm and bring it home in defense of herself and her children. I live in a rural area lived in the northeast kingdom my whole time in Island Pond since 1980 and we raised five kids eleven grandchildren firearms always in the house my wife and I were competitive shooters in western New York and the safe storage business I mean if somebody comes to my door in the middle of the night I've got my bull mastiff booker would probably lick him to death but makes a lot of racket the other part of that system is a loaded firearm you know if you want to make this a law punishable by whatever Senator Barouf start with me because I will not comply I just will not comply thank you thank you what ticket number were you number two hi I'm Justin Lindholm from Mendon Vermont second ticket 097 last call ticket 058 come on down your on deck and ticket number 088 your on deck thanks again I'm Justin Lindholm from Mendon Vermont I've actually watched a person commit suicide with a gun not a very pleasant experience my father also died in a car when I was young I wanted all kinds of laws put on vehicles and people operating vehicles so that we would not lose people through death in vehicles my stepfather said if we do the laws you want Justin we're not going to have any rights locked up if they didn't wear a seat belt I wanted people locked up if they went above the speed limit you can't do that and with guns you can't just take away people's rights to save a life here and there and the 48 hour waiting period is going to be such that it doesn't save that many to be worth it that many guns available to use the locking them up that this suicide that I watched 48 hours would have meant nothing 200 hours would have meant nothing locking it up would have meant nothing and so we might save a life here or there but what have we gained in society we're basically going to live very blah lives always worried about when we're going to be punished for not behaving ourselves and that's not a good thing I also carry a card with a suicide hotline number for myself I'm going to use charcoal briquettes if I ever need to commit suicide and I hope you don't put a 48 hour waiting period on charcoal briquettes thank you taking zero five eight and zero five eight you're five eight yes I'm sorry are you 88 thank you in that case take it one zero two come on down ready good afternoon I'm Brooke Beard I live near Woodstock Vermont I grew up with guns all my life and I've been a gun owner and still am when I was younger when I was younger the sole purpose of the NRA was gun safety and marksmanship as a recreational hunter I've always viewed guns simply as tools rarely if ever as weapons I'd like to present the following eight key facts about suicide waiting periods and safety stories safe storage is that better we're getting feedback somewhere we're trying I'll give you a few extra these are facts about suicide waiting periods and safe storage 420 Vermonters died from firearms between 2011 and 2016 and 89% of those 374 individuals were suicides 85% of suicide attempts with guns are fatal many of the other most widely used suicide attempts are successful less than 5% of the time Vermont's suicide death rate is 35% higher than the national average and guns are used in 59% of those cases states with mandatory waiting periods had an average 17% fewer murders and about 10% fewer suicides when South Dakota repealed its 48 hour waiting period for handgun purchases in 2009 overall suicides the following year increased 7.6% minors living in homes with unsecured guns are at an especially high risk of suicide and accidental firearm injury between 2004 and 2014 1,000 minors intentionally shot themselves between the vast majority of those minors who used guns used guns owned by someone in their home all of these he's getting a few more minutes because we cut him off with fixing the mic all of these statistics all of these statistics are well sourced and attached to a copy of Bob Williams's testimony thank you very much thank you what ticket number are you 088 ticket number 102 ticket number 102 ticket 098 come on down you're on deck my name is Dwayne Merrill I'm from Wilton Vermont I'm a professional auctioneer and appraiser for the last 52 years in Vermont we do an annual auction in Williston as many other auctioneers do across the state which involves firearms we are licensed, we do the background check I have about 210,000 people now each month that follow my auctions online and live as well as phone bidding this bill will be a detriment to our business many of our people come from out of state or from rural areas in Vermont to require another drive time to the auction another period of time to come will definitely hamper our business and will be a drawback to it more importantly I live in a rural town in Wilton Vermont I was brought up around guns my father made Kentucky rifles as a hobby he was a national muzzle loading champion I've lived with guns all my life feel very secure around them I've been more scared of somebody with a chainsaw or car or drugs that I've had friends that committed suicide usually related to medication the most important thing I want to say is that we in a rural area are in danger there isn't anybody on this committee that can protect me in my house my police will tell me if there's one or two police on duty another incident they're not going to make it to my house I'm 10 miles from the police station it's going to be a half hour an hour before I see anybody I should have the right to pick up that arm if I need it I'm very careful about firearms I know the danger in them but I think you need to realize in Vermont we've done a tremendous a great job in doing safety with firearms very very few accidents thank you ticket 110 we're on deck good afternoon my name's Michael Bard from Waterbury Center Vermont calling on for S12 and 3 and against S22 I think the big concern for most sportsmen is a lot of the unintended consequences we see this all the time I think most sportsmen are very law abiding citizens we try to do what's right we secure our guns we believe in gun safety that's just all part of being a sportsman but I think you're going to see so many unintended consequences you saw some of the auctioneers talking about it's going to jeopardize gun sales you're going to see what happens if I have a once in a lifetime trip to out west and my gun breaks you're leaving tomorrow you ain't going to be able to buy a gun and you're going to lose that trip of a lifetime I don't think people have thought about things like that I think we as sportsmen look at gun control as not being something that's really important it's more of a mental health issue and I think all sportsmen are for mental health because we see the mass shootings and such those are created by people not law abiding citizens they're created by people who have mental illness and if we don't control the access of guns we want to make them accessible to people who are law abiding and if we don't sportsmen adjust this is a tradition in Vermont and we need to keep that thank you and what ticket number were you 0 9 8 ticket 1 1 0 last call ticket 1 1 0 seeing no one the next ticket would be 0 9 2 0 9 2 and 0 I'm sorry 1 0 9 come on down as well ticket 1 0 9 from Richmond Vermont and thank you for hosting this I think that Vermont has very responsible gun owners and I think that parents do a very good job in teaching respect for the responsibility of gun owning owning a gun in Vermont I do not want to take rights away from responsible gun owners and I appreciate very much the focus that people have voiced here focusing on supporting suicide prevention and the health mental health aspects of that but I am in support of the 48 hour waiting period and the safe gun storage because both have shown to have a positive impact on reducing suicide and domestic violence incidences yes people who are bent on committing suicide and have been planning it for a very long time will wait the two days and they will still do it using a gun if that is what they have a mindset to do but it will reduce the spontaneous acts that are done in the heat of the moment and I personally know of a young man that could have I believe been saved if he had had some time to think about it and not be spontaneous and so if these laws can even save one person's life I think it's a small inconvenience to a responsible gun owner without taking any rights away from the gun owner thank you for your time thank you what ticket number were you ticket 004 you're on deck 004 my name is Jerry Frost from Tumbridge Vermont I'd like to thank the committee for hearing my testimony I'm here to speak in fierce opposition to a number of bills that are currently under review by the Vermont State Legislature I'm completely opposed to how it's bills 159 and 329 bills sent, bills 22 and 26 I'd like to do everything in my power to stop these bills from becoming law and I ask you to take no action proponents of these bills told them it's common sense and reasonable laws that make everyone safer in fact these laws do nothing but needlessly restrict the rights of law buying Vermonters and put many of us in danger there is no common sense whatsoever in these bills and they are in no way reasonable I would like to ask every legislature as well as those Vermont citizens who support these bills is whether they would still support each of the four bills I mentioned if the word firearm was replaced with automobile can you imagine if you post a two or three day waiting period every time someone bought a car in this state or required that I lock my keys up when I was in my house I don't think you would very much care if someone used a 3D printer to make parts and I find this is a gross overstep into people's lives, privacy and property it's for all these reasons I ask you to not consider the four bills I mentioned H1 S22 waiting to enact waiting periods on all firearm purchases in the state I'm truly sorry that Andrew Black took these actions and words cannot express the sympathy I've found for Mr. and Mr. Black this community and I are all too familiar with the painful realities of suicide and the devastating effects it has on those left behind I understand Mr. and Mrs. Black's needs to pursue some sort of action but I feel their efforts are misguided and not necessarily affect thousands of other people throughout the state I respectfully submit my testimony to the committee and thank you once again for your time what ticket number were you a 1-0-9 ticket 0-4-5 you're on deck my name is Bob Richard I'm from Berlin, Vermont and I don't have a prepared statement one thing I would like to say is on the possibility that a 48 hour waiting period may prevent a suicide I agree with that but a logical person would also agree that in that same 48 hours if a person is committed to take his own life he or she will and choose another means the other means we don't know what that is Mr. Burgoyne chose to take his own life and five Harvard Union students so we don't really know if this law if passed is going to save lives or cost more but one thing we do know for sure is it will have a very big detrimental effect on our gun show in Barry which seems insignificant when we're talking about death but the reality there are vendors that come from five different states or more to display the guns in the gun show and they won't come up if you can't make the transaction that day and nobody's going to buy if they have to wait to take the gun days later from out of state and go through other paperwork and understanding that S22 was in the legislative hopper before Andrew Burgoyne or Andrew Black committed suicide if that's true it seems a shame that he's being used as a pawn in this legislative chess game to pass anti-gun legislation thank you for your time take it number one zero zero four take it one two zero run deck hello and thank you for allowing me to speak this evening my name is Ron LaFreniere I'm from the town of Bolton my family's been in Vermont for many generational period of time I have relatives that came here in 1700s every single one of them has had a firearm in their home hanging on the wall over many years and we were taught from a very young age how to use firearms how to be safe with firearms I have done the same thing with my son my relatives my nieces and nephews and also any child that comes into my home I think what we're doing and looking at S22 and telling us how we are supposed to keep our firearms in our home is not your job that's our job I can look back many times and people have told us that you don't look at don't tell us what to do in our homes well now you're telling us what to do in our homes and I don't think it's right I think what you need to do is focus on the bigger issue of the drugs in the state and what they've done to the people that are here and the people that are coming here and why and take and make sure that that stuff is cured I'm very sorry for some of the things that have happened in the state and to some of the young people in the state but I do not think that by proposing how I have to keep a firearm in my house is going to stop anyone from doing some things that they shouldn't be doing thank you ticket one ticket one two zero are you here I'm sorry ticket one two zero you'll be joined by ticket eight zero four eight good evening my name is Mary Cox I'm on the board of Nami Vermont but I'm here speaking this evening as a mother a sister and also a veteran I'm the mother of a son who has a mental illness I'm the sister of a brother who had a mental illness and who ultimately committed suicide and I'm a 27 year veteran of the United States Coast Guard and Coast Guard Reserve and I'm very concerned about the high suicide rate amongst veterans here in the state of Vermont in fact Vermont ranks as one of the highest in terms of suicides of veterans per capita in the entire United States there's a lot of things that we can do towards alleviating their suicide rates amongst veterans such things as talking to veterans and providing them with gun locks particularly gun locks with the veteran crisis number attached to the gun lock they found that this helps there's other things that can be done but I wanted to say that I'm in favor of the waiting period I think that having a reasonable waiting period makes sense because we now have many more tools many more paths to take to help people when they feel in despair what so many veterans do they get to a point where they feel that they're misunderstood they're not sure how to deal with their experience from being in a war zone and they really just need support that is available to them if they're able to reach out or be reached and so I recommend the waiting the reasonable waiting period thank you very much thank you Hello and for I'm David Hamilton Episcopal priest also trained as a psychotherapist and practiced as a psychotherapist for 15 years as well as doing parish ministry I am here in support of S22 with regard to the waiting period having dealt with a number of people in therapy over the years what I have discovered is that the drive toward finding relief from depressive symptoms is powerful but it is also something that can be averted with enough support with enough caring of the community and when someone does in fact commit suicide there is not one death there are many repercussions and in a way the spirits of many people who knew that person have suffered a death as well I think that it is important to consider that we have an epidemic in terms of our mental health situation and if we are able in any way to step into the situation and to help prevent the rise of this epidemic in terms of another suicide even of one person I think that that is a very worthwhile thing to do I support those who have guns I have no problem with guns I am someone who has in fact shot firearms I am a very good shot but I don't consider that the restriction that is placed upon them by having a 24 hour or 48 or 72 hour waiting period is any infringement of their right ticket 060 come on down you are on deck 060 I am Joe Bosie I am from Randolph center live right down the hill here I am a former combat Marine seen a lot of destruction as we see here in Randolph center where I live we don't have many police matter of fact police didn't show up to you folks did you are right honest with you so that said I am obviously wearing the orange hat the orange tag I am against our new gun laws you know me and my wife we take good care of ourselves and we feel we are well protected on our own though I have my gun safe I don't feel the need to lock up a handgun if I need to protect me or my family I notice on the last round gun bills that went last year which protected exactly nobody I notice that with those gun bills every person who voted for it weren't from Randolph center I was born down the hill in 1959 that said the folks that voted for the last year's bills were all from out of state went from here had brought their laws to here and so well Mr. Baruth I welcome you to take your donations from Gunsense Vermont and the Bloomberg machine same with Mr. McDonald over here taking that money I would like to offer to give you some money too my offer is I will pay for your move in van to go away that said that said I hope in fact that we come to better senses and look at what really happens in suicide because I've seen it my best man in my wedding committed suicide they took his guns away and then he said there are other methods when he hung himself two months later so 48 hours isn't going to mean anything didn't mean anything to him two months later again Mr. Baruth my offer stands to pick number zero zero five you're on deck zero zero five Ludin Cohen from Randolph Vermont and thank you for letting me speak today I've been a pediatrician in Randolph for the last 42 and a half years I've also worked statewide and nationally to improve gun safety laws I've had the sad experience of having multiple patients die by suicide during my 42 plus years as a pediatrician most by guns but some by other means I strongly support S 22 legislation to have a mandatory minimum 40 hour waiting period to buy a gun Vermont has fewer suicide attempts than most states that's the good news but sadly Vermont consistently ranks near the top for deaths from suicide this correlates directly to the fact that Vermont has too easy access to guns research strongly supports that most suicides are impulsive acts during an often brief period of despair often less than 24 hours prior to the attempted suicide Vermont has 1.5 times national suicide by firearm rate sadly 90% of all gun deaths in Vermont are suicides suicide rates are climbing across the state both in young population and in the elderly population guns are uniquely lethal 85% of those that attempt suicide with a gun die while often the remainder who don't die have severe trauma 90% of people who attempt suicide by other means live and do not attempt a second time especially with appropriate help by having the waiting period of 48 hours or more we save lives there is no evidence that a waiting period inhibits access to guns and if the argument is I need it right now the likelihood of harm to self or others is increased in other words if someone comes in and demands they need a gun right now they're more likely to harm themselves or other lastly children must be safe when guns are in the house I've had experience with three and five year olds playing with a load of pistols taking from under their parents pillow I strongly support S22 thank you ticket 005 last call seeing no answer ticket 128 you are on deck as is ticket one two three my name is Jonathan Johnson I live in Lincoln I'm a ninth generation Vermonter my family has been here since 1774 I oppose S22 and S72 I'm sorry that Andrew Black's parents had to lose their son that way but Andrew Black was a legal adult who made a choice it was his choice to make this legislature is actively aggressively aggressively pursuing codifying into the statute the legalization of an adult to kill a baby in any time for any reason and you want me to believe that you're interested in preserving life this is an adult who made a choice as far as a waiting period goes a right that is mine under Second Amendment in article 16 if you deny my right if you delay my right you're denying my right as to safe storage there is no I would need to find myself here excuse me the concept of keeping and bearing arms go together I cannot readily bear my arm in self-defense if I cannot access it I and I alone am capable to make the determination of which of my guns should be locked up which of them should be available for defending myself and my home when necessary S-72 is an expansion of an already illegal and unconstitutional law that violates the Second Amendment, the Fourth Amendment the Fifth Amendment, the Sixth Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment I oppose that you guys are slowly whittling away our right you're attempting to do it piece by piece until you can ultimately take them I will not let that happen I will not comply this will not become Vermontisweila Ticket 1, 2, 3 are you here? Ticket 0, 5, 4 No Sir, come on back have a seat Ticket 0, 5, 4 and Ticket 1, 2, 1 you're on deck Good evening my name is Dr. Daniel J. Monger and I live with my wife Kathleen and New Haven Vermont and I have come to speak to you today on Senate Bill S-22 One of the things most notable about Vermontis is their self-reliance which is proven with Hurricane Irene Neighbors were helping neighbors rather than sitting back and waiting for the government when it chose to step in and help hurricane victims with what to do No one said Vermontis acted and that's what we call self-reliance Some people do not act when required for many reasons Some people do not act out of their laziness and hence they lack necessary preparedness Some people do not act out of analysis paralysis Others do not act out of fear Many have grown up believing in the mantra the government is here to help Unfortunately, when it comes to protecting yourself and family when seconds matter the police are minutes away My wife and I love and respect the police as much as anyone but let me say it again when seconds matter the police are minutes away I wish to address that section of S-22 that relates to the storage of a firearm which is outside one's immediate possession or control to be contained within a safe storage depository and as kept 24 hours each day in your nightstand if S-22 were to be signed into law the government will now be able to imprison you for one year plus find you $500 to add insult to injury The National Rifle Association which is the oldest civil rights organization in the country was founded in 1871 with the explicit purpose to teach people how to safely and accurately use firearms as a tool So again, there are those in this room who wish to level the playing field and who wish to place every winter Vermont the self-reliant and the responsible altogether one vulnerable disadvantaged play Thank you Ticket 0-9-1 You're on deck Hello, my name is Nancy Stauden and I live in Brookfield, Vermont First of all, I want to say it was very surprised that at a public meeting we did not say the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States We're all Americans here and we all have the right to bear on as is the Constitution and as the locking up our guns that they are not readily available in a crisis I feel that's wrong If someone breaks into my house I want to be able to defend myself and my family and I have trained my children through the years not to touch guns and I think it's up to every parent to train their child I believe that if we have to lock up our guns and you make that a lock I am one person that would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 because I cannot defend myself I think your laws are wrong We are all American citizens and we all deserve the right of the Constitution Thank you 10-9-1 Last call In that case, ticket 0-6-1 and ticket 0-0-3 you are on deck Good evening Thank you for taking my testimony My name is Paul Manganiello I'm a physician and I am the Medical Director of the Good Neighbor Health Clinic of White River Junction I'm a member of the Vermont Medical Society and I and the Medical Society suicide is the leading cause of death by gun in Vermont and there are many risk factors that might lead an individual to attempt to take his or her life but death as an endpoint is only part of the story in 2014 there were 114,000 deaths by suicide in Vermont half of them were by gun but there are approximately 1,500 injuries as a result of attempted suicide roughly 300 are hospitalized and roughly 1200 are emergency room admissions and these are injuries included poisoning, cutting, and suffocation only 1% were firearm related and that's because of the inherent fatality of using a firearm we know that there are common sense there are best evidence laws which support waiting periods and also safe storage there are states that have strong cap laws which are defined as more or less imposing criminal liability on the owner who has where a child has access to that gun as either injured or killed has been shown that it decreases self-inflicted pediatric firearms by 54% it also decreases the unintentional firearm injuries by 44% studies have also shown that waiting periods are able to reduce gun deaths by about 10% which in states that results in roughly a 22 to 33% fewer deaths by suicide for average states there's no single piece of legislature which will address all of the factors surrounding suicide if we hope to have any again, support thoughts 72 and 22, thank you take a 05 3, you're on deck Bob Reed from Warner Vermont Governor John Weekson has an orbital address stated that our God-given rights as enshrined in the United States and Vermont Constitution are not open for negotiation they cannot be legislated away they cannot be regulated away any intent by any person organization or government to do so will be met with the strongest resistance as 1927 just appropriate then as it is now if not even more appropriate it's our rights they don't end where your fears and concerns begin there are rights our God-given rights they're enshrined in a state and federal constitution contrary to what you may or may not have been told they're not living iterative documents they're legal documents they're fixed in their meaning they mean what they say they're not subject to change due to the shifting sands of public opinion they are not subject to change due to judicial overreach by some administrative court judge and they're certainly not subject to change due to legislative eat-it we are from Monters you see that sea of orange behind it they believe in the Constitution they will defend the Constitution and they will support the Constitution we are Vermont sons and daughters we are mothers, fathers, husbands, wives sisters, brothers, aunts and uncles nieces, nephews cousins, grandparents, grandchildren and neighbors we carry open, we carry concealed we shoot, we hunt we fish, we trap and we've had enough of you started last year and goes on this year does nothing the laws passed last year did nothing for safety these laws 22, 26, 72 they will do nothing for safety nothing obey your oath honor the Constitution ticket 107 you're on deck 107 I'm Amber I'm from Lowell you guys have all been okay you've all been told the statistics you've been told the statutes I'm going to give you my opinion this is bullshit sorry as you look out at the sea of orange there's a lot of us here we're tired of the government overtaking it's enough no more what are we going to do next make a two-day waiting period on dreino plastic bags enough is enough storage loss how are you going to enforce that unless you've got cops at my door ain't nobody coming in to check it I can guarantee you that I thank you for your time no more thank you ticket 052 you're on deck 052 Sean Handy Wilson Vermont I'm a national match competitor I travel all over the country shooting I'm the 2395th distinguished rifleman that ever became that as a civilian I don't want to see Senator Sears face again like I saw last year when his simple bill got Christmas treat into that abhorrent mess that you wanted to take your name off before it finally got signed I want you guys to sleep at night I bet you lost a lot of sleep on that one and these bills taking a step further from what happened last year now you're really messing with people's safety you're 48 hour law like many people have stated just one life one life passes away because of that safe storage that 48 hour waiting period it's on your guys hands it's on your hands we are tired you've poked the bear long enough we don't want anymore in fact I'd like to see nothing but a repeal of what happened last year we were the safest state we had no problems Jack Sawyer what happened to him where is he now same as he was before probation slap on the wrist don't don't mess with us anymore we don't need it we don't want it thank you ticket 117 a waiting period will not stop the suicide a gun is only a means we had three doctors speak here tonight the question is how many of them had notified ATF that they had a patient with a problem that would stop them from buying a gun that would stop that suicide that day and the safe storage today's a perfect example of that we have Orange County Police Department here let's just say there's a woman over in Corrent Goose Green they got a 15 year old daughter there's somebody pounding on their door trying to get in with the road conditions there's no interstate how long is it going to take that police department or a trooper to get there you know, a safe storage is not a good reason you know if the woman knows the combination to their gun safe she's excited because somebody's trying to get in she turns the dial to the wrong direction the person is going to get in the house what's going to happen with her and her 15 year old daughter let's have a little common sense with this ticket 127 127 no 127 we're going to go with ticket 122 I'm Ed Cutler president of the gun owners of Vermont and I'm here to thank the committee for these public hearings we respectfully ask that no action on the current anti-gun bills be taken there are many reasons for that the main reason is a few hours of testimony here a few hours last week and what's going to happen tomorrow is not enough time to decide these serious constitutional issues we are asking the center of the baruse bills to be put on the wall forever we are also asking for further hearings either during shutdown or next year where we can supply expert testimony by nationally accredited people Dr. John Locke the bills for saving the mags or redoing them we fully support them except if Senator Baruth or the house adds amendments to them to make them worse like they did to S-55 last year we have long memories if they come back into this body or into this committee after they come out of the house worse than what we put in we ask that you sit on those bills so if not please support those bills because of what happened in Minnbury the gentleman literally had his guns taken away which was not even accordance with the law that was passed last year it will no further action be taken with that I know it's a sore subject but when people lose their rights because their nephews decide to say something that's wrong it's a travesty of justice thank you ticket 096 you're on deck 096 my name is Bruce Barofield national competitor as a firearms dealer when somebody comes to buy a firearm from me they fill out the form we go through the NICS check and there is no way that I can know if that person has a mental reason for not being allowed to buy a firearm because Vermont is lagging way behind the rest of the nation in providing that information to the NICS system before the NICS system we did have background checks before the NICS system and they weren't effective that's why everybody went to the NICS system but if the information is not in the NICS system we can't make that determination I would like to reiterate as far as safe storage a lot of people in Vermont live a long way from police protection they live out in the boonies, they don't have a police department they're dependent on state police or the sheriffs they do a heck of a job and my dad and seconds count unfortunately they're minutes away and that's just the fact that life in Vermont and something to be considered thank you take it one two two one two two you're on deck I appreciate this hearing, I'm Bob Williamson of South Woodstock, Vermont I grew up with firearms I had a bold action 22 rifle and loved target shooting my dad had a semi-automatic .22 rifle and a .38 pistol I knew where he kept it and my brother was a collector 52 years ago my uncle took his life with a handgun his death left a wound in our family my cousin Nick first learned of his father's death when a news reporter called him to ask him for a statement I can only imagine the shock my cousin felt taking that horrible call I feel for any family that has to settle with the loss of a loved one it hits you like an earthquake and leaves aftershocks that last a lifetime we have the opportunity to do something very specific to reduce suicides in Vermont by passing S-22 the family of Andrew Black have made a special request to institute a waiting period in the wake of their beloved son's tragic death if we could spare families of the trauma and grief from losing a loved one we should do so Blacks make a strong case for both safe storage and waiting periods the firearms and the Black household were locked so Andrew needed to buy the gun he then used to take his own life while statistics tell while statistics only tell part of the story they are evidence based and vital to the full picture you've heard many statistics today that said we can lose sight of the human face behind those statistics each one is a real person the tragic loss is borne by all those who knew and loved them like the family of Cheryl Hannah the Vermont Law School Professor like Ji Wu and Shuan Jue who lost their son Aaron the list goes on it's time we do something about this I ask you to support S-22 it will make Vermonters safer and will relieve a lot of pain and suffering thank you thank you ticket one, two, two ticket zero ticket zero, nine, four ticket zero, four, six come on down I'm Bob Griswold I live in Milton and thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak I have two concerns for our elected legislators both state and federal and I have to do one with being forthright in your intent on writing or proposing any gun legislation that really means what's your long term goal and secondly I think you should be forthright in whom you actually represent and I think those two concerns are rather obvious and if you're not forthright you shouldn't be in this office and I have no problem at all with your forthrightness or who you think you represent or your long term goals but I don't think it should be disguised thank you ticket one, zero, four thank you for hosting this meeting thank you for the audience everyone for coming my name is Archie Flower I'm a resident of New Haven but I was born in Middlebury Montpelier has forgotten its proper role in the federal relationship to the people this is outlined in the Vermont Constitution in article six officers, servants of the people that all power being originally inherent in and consequently derived from the people therefore all officers of government whether legislative or executive are their trustees and servants and at all times in a legal way accountable to them is that if you're attacking one right you really are attacking all of them and it's highlighted when we look at article 16 the right to bear arms that the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves in the state that's clear, that's in our Constitution but what do I mean by attacking other rights we're also attacking freedom of speech in article 13 that the people have a right to freedom of speech in writing and publishing their sentiments S26 says a person shall not distribute or attempt to distribute via the internet or any other means digital instructions for programming a three-dimensional printer this is a direct violation of free speech to try to get also at article 16 but my questions as an IT professional are these will Montpelier demand that we build a great firewall around our state like they did in China will Montpelier make encryption illegal or will they demand key escrow so that they can read all of our email and internet traffic will Montpelier outlaw virtual private networks will Montpelier make spyware mandatory on our PCs, game consoles mobile devices and everything else with a CPU thank you ticket 093 093 hello my name is John Becker from Randolph Center I am here to say I do not support S22 and I ask that you take no action on it I am here to support S1, S2 and S13 I'm a competitive shooter and I compete in Vermont and New Hampshire I have many friends in New Hampshire who do not to compete in our competitions I feel it's unfair that on June 30th they are a law-abiding citizen to come into a competition on July 1st their criminals I think that law should be removed in response to S2 as a competitive shooter we have a lot of custom guns I have substantial investment in firearms large capacity magazines and I feel that if I pass away that I cannot will my assets to my family members I feel that's what am I supposed to do with them if I pass away what's my family supposed to do with them I feel there should be a mechanism that allows to be passed to family members and in regards to S13 I have two children that I take shooting with me I would like to be able to teach them how to do the competitive shooting that I do my guns and the high-capacity magazines to them so they can use them in the competitions it's not fair that I can't I can't do that to be able to pass my assets to my own family thank you last number that I have for somebody that wanted to speak is 124 124 Good evening my name is Norm Strong I'm going to basically take over where my wife left off let's look at the firearms suicides of people under 30 and see how many of these suicides may be affecting the maybe affected the average number of suicides by people 20 and under was 2.5 per year I expanded the number of people who may be affected by a 48 hour waiting period to include anyone between the age of 21 to 30 because as the record shows most people over 30 years old in Vermont already own a gun in that expanded age range the average firearm suicide number is less than 10 a year in this 6 year period there is only one child death by firearm accident that's a total of 12 to 13 suicides a year that may be prevented by these two laws if those between 18 and 30 don't already own a firearm in contrast to the same period there were an average of 828 violent crimes 117 18 forcible rapes 95 robberies per year and 2,933 burglaries and home invasions per year that is an average of 3973 incidents not including property damage, assault, or domestic violence stalking so does the possibility of 2.5 suicides outweigh my right and my wife's right to protect myself against the possibility of 3,000 to 4,000 criminal violations against a person or property so that is what the storage law suggests does the possibility of stopping culture 13 suicides a year and that is a highly inflated number based on who may already be a gun owner outweigh your ability to get a gun on short notice should we be treated should we be threatened or stalked or have a dangerous animal on our property because that is what a 48 hour waiting period suggests do we exchange our constitutional rights spelled out in article 16 keep and bear arms for our own protection for such low stats I don't think so and as a legislative body I'm from right here in Randolph, Vermont I'm requesting that you do not pass these bills I'm a single mother of two young boys and I live also with my 82 year old grandmother I am the line of defense in the home I am also a woman who has been unfortunately a victim of domestic violence and I really ask you that women who are in these situations don't have to wait 40 hours to get protection for themselves this is so important that they are able to protect themselves the police they're not that close by they were very helpful to me and I am very appreciative for what they did do the state police were amazing but it still takes them time to get to my house and I want to be able to protect my family also on another note this winter I was home and I decided for some reason to sleep on the couch I'm not sure why I don't usually do that two o'clock in the morning there's a knock on my door and there's a man and he is aggravated and he broke down four hours ago and he was cold and wanted to come inside I my first line of defense was my door my second was my mildly obese dog and then third was my gun if he had broken through those other two barriers that was my option and that gun was readily available it was ready to go it was not locked away and again I have two sons they know guns they fired guns they've learned about guns they understand the repercussions of using them wrong you know we need to teach them and it's just like anything else I warn them against drugs and against sexual predators and against a lot of things so yes they've been taught about the safety aspects of guns and quite frankly I don't want these rights taken away from all of us thank you thank you all very much that concludes the public hearing we appreciate all your thoughts both sides and one of the special thanks to Simon and Aaron, Janet, Miller and her crew and Kevin, Delaney and Mike for much play to counsel as well as Kevin Moore for the technical assistance thank all of you, have a good night