 Good morning everybody. Good morning my name is Jane Secker and my name is Chris Morrison and we are the co-chairs of the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group, a special interest group of the Association for Learning Technology who host us on these regular monthly webinars. So this is episode number 51 isn't it? It is, it is and for those who are there before could see that the balloon, the 50 balloon has been slowly deflated so it's now. So you added a post-it note to the 50 to make a 51. I did. I was slightly somewhat critical of that as it wasn't particularly because it wasn't on the other side. Oh you did it on the other side, I apologise. It was a great idea. I think the additional weight of the post-it has made it even sadder as it falls to the floor. Not in any way a reflection of how of the quality of this session or any of the other session or of the previous 50 if you're tuning in for the first time. This is going to be a good one. So what are we doing today? Well we have got our usual Copyright News, we've got quite a few items that we're going to go through, lots of exciting things coming up, been happening so we'll go through all of that and then the focus of today's session is becoming a Copyright Specialist. So we first did a webinar on this in November last year, we had a really great session and we thought this is going to be a kind of regular feature of the webinars to get people in from all different stages of their career. So really, really pleased to have Chris from University of Kent, the other Chris. The other Chris. Wendy, there are more than one Chris available. There are quite a lot of Chris's in the copyright world as well, I think it's part of them. All of them greater in their own ways. Yes, then we have Wendy from LSE who will be talking about becoming a Copyright Specialist and Neil Sprunt who many of you will know from the University of Manchester so really looking forward to it. So what has been happening since the last time we met? Oh, we've been busy. Yeah, so this is some really great news that you may have seen a while back with Jane and I put out a call for some people to help with us and to share in the joy in managing all the stuff we do around copyright literacy. We call the copyright literacy padawans, those of you know Star Wars, we'll understand where that comes from. So we're delighted to say that Catherine Drum, who works with Jane City, Sarah Hammond from University of Cambridge and Maria Molina, some of whom are definitely with us today have joined our band to help us with various things on the website. Yes, really exciting. A blog and social media and all sorts of other stuff. So welcome to them and it's just it's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. I know definitely we've got Catherine and Maria on the webinar today as well. So that's lovely. And yeah, we're looking forward to working with them and putting up some more details I think in a blog post very soon. Yes, and we did ask them, do they actually want to keep the term padawans? Do they want to come up with something else? So maybe they'll come up with another term. Sarah suggested minions. I don't think that's quite the right one. So anyway, or do you like a minion? I do. Yes. Okay, right. Right. This is the webinar and blog archive. So where you can see previous either the Blackboard Collaborate Recordings or the YouTube versions of them, which are now on the website. I'll just pop a couple of those into the chat for you. Oh, she's dropped a mouse. Okay, right. So in the meantime, you'll do that without making a fuss, won't you? And we can move on to the next section, which is of course, everyone's favorite copyright news. Couldn't play this video. Right, okay. Copyright news jingle coming up with you just a moment now. You can always hum it. I could always hum it. I think it may because I've taken this. So I'm trying a slightly different way of playing the jingles to you today. The first one of which worked fine. The next one of which didn't work quite so well. Okay, I think you're gonna have to do it. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Okay, that's that one. Indeed this. Okay, so first up in the copyright news is the fact that we have a very small number of places left at the ice pops conference. So this is just to let you know, this is your final warning. We only have 60 places at the conference and we have pretty much sold them all. So if you were intending to come, I would recommend you get yourself booked onto the conference very soon because you are likely to miss out. So yeah, we've got I think we've got five or six places left and that is it. And we have to be quite strict on numbers. Yes, we've been to visit the room. It's going to be absolutely fantastic, but they have a strict limit on number of places. They can come to the after party. The after party is obviously welcome to any copyright chums who happen to find themselves at Oxford. But yes, we have a strict 60 person limit in the room. So yeah, and the program is developing as well. Yeah, we hope to get that up next week actually. We do. Yeah. So really great. We've got really quiet week next week, haven't we? We're not really doing anything at all. We've got like just just a bit of sitting around, I think. And as ever, we've got loads of incredibly crashing deadlines. We were trying to do massively over ambitious things. But hey, would we want it any other way? No. So what are we doing next week, Chris? We are going to Leicester and Play for Learning conference. Yes. So this has been a long time coming. I think the conference bookings have closed. So this is just really to let you know where what we're up to. And we'll probably be on Twitter. We may well be sharing some stuff fairly soon after the conference as well, because we've been kind of getting we've discovered that trying to be really playful is really stressful when you're going to a conference with lots of other people who are really playful. So I'm sure it'll be fantastic. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. We are looking forward to it. Our next item is just to let people know that the alt conference, the bookings are open for the alt conference, which is the week of ice pop. So ice pops is the last day of alt. And it's alt is at University of Manchester. So for those of you who have had quite enough of copyright or who have basically missed out on ice pops, you could go to the alt conference. So it's the Association for Learning Technology. It's actually the first conference I ever went to, you know, I won't tell you what year it was, but maybe we could have competition to guess. Maybe, maybe. Just to say that on the alt conference, there are also online participation options as well. So they've done everything that allows you, even if you can't. Would anyone like to guess what year it was? I think it was 2001. Okay, right. Well, we'll maybe reveal that at the end. Okay, we'll see what people think in the chat. If you've got any any advances on 2001 or if you think I'm even older and you want to go back to the nineties. What have we got next, Chris? Right, what's next? Yes. Copyright Waffle. I've made the T-Share Copyright Waffle T-Share today. Many of you will know it is our podcast series. Yes, we're extremely excited about the podcast that we did with Mark Lewison. I think undisputed leading number one Beatles expert who spoke to us about the Beatles and copyright. In this most recent episode, it's the second in two-part conversation, he talks to us about his archive, about libraries, about what's going to happen to his archive. About the way copyright affects the way he does his research. Absolutely, yeah. So this is just brilliant. And one thing that came up in the tour of Mark's archive was the collection, or part of the collection he has of John Cure's Telesnaps. I have become unbelievably excited about probably one of the weirdest, nerdiest things ever. Taking photographs of the television to these days doesn't sound that revolutionary, but in the post-war period, it really was. And it comes with a big copyright part of that story, because he was doing this and was it or was it not in contravention of copyright law? I think at the time, the law did not cover broadcast, did it? So which was it in the act of the 1911? It was the 1911 act, so clearly it didn't specifically mention what happens if someone takes photographs of the television and then tries to sell those photos back to the performers and the broadcasters. So that is actually in this article that Mark wrote a number of years ago that he's allowed us to publish on the copyright literacy website. So huge thanks to Mark for allowing us to... I mean Creative Commons last summer. He's agreed to license at Creative Commons. So we are delighted with that. So you may want to follow that. We found it fascinating. And there are telly snaps. I just want to say, I'm not going to go on and on and on about them, but the one of the things that's really interesting is that for live broadcast, at that point, there was no other way of recording them other than to take stills. And so there is some events that are captured in telly snaps that and I think the one that's up on the screen there, I believe this is the Queen when she was Princess Elizabeth watching the FA Cup final at some point in the very early fifties, I think. So it's just a kind of fascinating. It is about copyright history, isn't it, really, essentially. So Diane, thank you. You read the article, found it interesting. Yeah, we're glad you enjoyed it as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying not to get stupidly excited about telly snaps. Let's move on, because I could probably give a whole lecture about them now. So it might happen one day. Anyway, next up, next up, a good friend of ours, Leo Haverman, who is at UCL, but he's doing his PhD at the Open University on open education and open education policy, has got a survey out at the moment. And we have agreed to just help him promote his survey. So I popped a link in the chat, we've got it in copyright news, and I think he'd be really grateful if you could complete that. I think the deadline for completing it is still a few weeks away, sometime in the middle of July. So, but if I think it's, you know, it's looking for somebody from your institution, might not necessarily be you, you might want to send it on to your learning technology team, but it is about your institution's open education policy. So that's another good one. And finally, the final piece of copyright news really is hot off the press, and it really is genuine copyright news that the Intellectual Property Office has released the government's response, the UK government response to artificial intelligence and intellectual property. It was a consultation on patents and copyright and how they should help to deliver the benefits of using machine learning and artificial intelligence. And the key thing here for copyright for those of us in our world is on text and data mining. So for text and data mining, the government plans to introduce a new copyright and database exception, which allows TDM for any purpose. So that's commercial and non-commercial rights holders will still have safeguards to protect their content, including a requirement for lawful access. So the devil is in the detail as ever when the legal drafting happens, but this is good news for those of us in the library and research world that have been advocating for the law to be broadened for a long time now. And, you know, we highlighted some of these concerns over the years, haven't we, since that exception was brought in, that it's kind of, you know, if you've got technical protection measures in place, then, you know, what's the point of having that exception because it's causing so many problems. So we expect to see a lot more conversation about this, almost certainly there will be events looking at the detail of this. It's not necessarily an online learning issue per se. We did look at it as part of the copyrighted online learning special interest group, whether we would put in a response to that consultation. And there are artificial intelligence implications, but this is very much about research, but it certainly has, there's always crossover. And Alacor and RLUK were involved in British Library and I was part of a group which helped draft a response. So hopefully that had an impact. But I think, you know, with such a focus on AI as well, and some of the other kind of challenges that were being faced, it sounds we're always a bit cautious, but it sounds like good news. So, right, let's get started on the main event. So we are absolutely delighted, as we said, to introduce another three presenters talking about their story of becoming a copyright specialist. So we have, in order of appearance, Chris Slater from the University of Kent, Wendy Lindwood from LSE, the London School of Economics and Political Sciences, and Neil Sprunt from the University of Manchester. It's all right to abbreviate. I took an executive decision, having worked there 15 years, but it was going to make it run too long on that slide. It would have concocted. It would have, but nonetheless, it wouldn't have made it too long to just explain it unless we then had a conversation about it afterwards. But no matter, let us turn, first of all, to Chris. If we can get up Chris's slides. Chris, can we hear you? Can you turn your mic and camera on? Can you hear me? Can't you see me? That would be... We can hear and can see you. Excellent. Good start. Chris, thank you very, very much for joining us. Handing over to you, you're going to talk. Each of our presenters will be talking for 10 minutes. And then afterwards, we'll have a conversation for an opportunity for a conversation. So, Chris, over to you. Thank you very much and thank you very much for having me. Hopefully, this will go okay. Okay. So, really, apart from Jane and Chris aside, I fully expect that no one else will know who I am. So, let's start at the beginning. Who am I and how did I end up talking to you all today? And those are two questions that I did end up asking myself as I was making my presentation. So, as mentioned, I am Chris and I am a Copyright Licensing Policy and Risk Coordinator at the University of Kent. And it's a very good job that we're not made to wear name badges because the title is so long. Of course, of all the things that we do, I'm here to talk... All the things I do, I'm here to talk to you about copyright. So, essentially, my role at the University is to deliver support and guidance to staff and students in things about copyright to help maintain and develop our institutional knowledge about copyright and to deliver training where it's required. That's sort of the nutshell overview of what I do in the copyright space of the university. But how did I actually end up here today delivering a talk to you as someone starting their journey as a copyright specialist? Here's the page. So, I'd rather sort of tongue-in-cheek name this bit from books to drugs and back to books again. It makes me sound a bit like an off-the-rails rock star, but... So, my background is as a historian. I studied for three years at Kent as an undergraduate and I graduated in 2015 and then we'll straight on to do a Master's in Medieval and Early Modern History. And the picture here actually is from one of my own trips to the National Archives. It's a 13th century papal bull from Gregory the Ninth, if I'm remembering correctly. It was a long time ago now, but eventually I stopped trying to delay the inevitable and I left the university properly in September 2016 and I did the logical thing for a history graduate and I went to work for a fast suitable company. I did various things there. I tried my hand in the warehouse. I did a stint as an accountant and had a player around with business development and all told I ended up spending about five years at that company. And I didn't really enjoy my time my time there. So in October 2021 I applied for a job as a licensing and policy administrator at the University of Kent and spoiler alert, I got the gig. You'll notice though that within that title there's no mention of copyright and I'll come back to that in just a second. But the main point that I'm trying to emphasise is that I clearly have absolutely no background in copyright at all. There we go. So the journey begins. Well, does it? I started at Kent in November of 2021 and as I said copyright wasn't really sort of a part of the role that I was going to be doing initially. It was certainly not going to be a significant part of my role at least maybe I would have been expected to dabble but you know it wasn't it wasn't there as a formal sort of part of my part of my job description. All of that changed very quickly though as I found myself joining the university midway through a major departmental restructure. So a couple of weeks into the job I was told that starting in February this year February 2022 I was going to be the university's copyright coordinator. I was on my way. So down the rabbit hole. Now I'm going to backtrack a little bit because I've said that my journey started in November 2021 but that's not entirely in February 2022 rather. So that's not entirely true and if this was a film they'd probably play that sound effect you know the record scratch for backtracking. I mean as I said I was going to formally take on the role of copyright coordinator in February 2022 but my exposure to the copyright space had actually begun probably around the time that I actually started started in the role and as is perhaps inevitable when you're working literally two foot away from Chris Morrison. The actual beginning of my journey into the copyright domain began as a series of conversations and a recommendation to watch a video. The 2021 Charles Clark Memorial Lecture on AI and Copyright and I'm quite pleased that that's actually really topical given given the news this week so I'm glad I got that one in there and I do hope to share the link to that for anyone that wants to see it because I would definitely recommend people giving it a view if you haven't seen it already. It was while watching this lecture and enjoying sort of the conversations I was able to have with Chris about sort of the themes and the topics that had come up in in that lecture that I found that I was beginning to develop an interest and I know that sounds a little bit cliched but it really was quite sort of an epiphany sort of moment that I found the seeds of hunger for copyright developing I suppose you could say. You know from that point onwards I found myself beginning to learn you know this was before I was formally expected to sort of take on the duties of a copyright coordinator but I was picking things up by familiarizing myself with the university's guidance conversations with Chris. I eventually got involved in the delivery of advice and guidance and before I knew it I was helping to sort of provide training and assist with the development of policy so I sort of jumped the gun in terms of actually stepping into that role. I grew and I continue to grow by essentially doing the job so that's effectively in a nutshell how I actually ended up as a copyright coordinator. Now you know I do the role largely autonomously I'm still learning still developing but the course of the functions I mentioned earlier about the delivering of support and guidance helping to develop policy deliver training those are all the sorts of things that I do in my sort of business as usual day-to-day role as a copyright coordinator amongst the many other things that I also do on top of that. So I have some food for thought or tips for people like me so if you are just starting out in this space and you're stepping into the world of copyright for the first time the easiest thing to do would be to get yourself a Jane Secker or Chris Morrison but we're not all so lucky to be able to have them on hand so what are the actual things that you really can do yourself and I think the first thing and it's maybe easier said than done is have an interest and it might take you some time to realize that interest for you to sort of grasp actually you know it is an area that is truly deeply fascinating and you can go down all sorts of rabbit holes with it and it did take me some time myself it was never something that I saw myself being interested in you know I hadn't had a background in it nor did I ever really thought about the topic of copyright very often. One of the other things that I think you can do is read and although there are sort of avenues you can go down to introduce sort of to formalize your learning you can take on courses and do all sorts of things in that in that sort of space but if you're not able to sort of undertake a course or you're not you're not looking to do that just yet for people for people like me who need structure to their learning I found that reading is a really useful is a really sort of useful way of organizing and collecting your thoughts in that space so I try to take time to to read in my spare time to just you know try to introduce some sort of proper structure and routine to my development in copyright knowledge. Be curious would certainly be another tip that I would advise people on that would be you know joining things like the the discussion list so Liz CopySeek is a really good resource for sort of just seeing what's going on in the sector and seeing what other issues people are are dealing with looking into their questions and and hopefully I'll get to the stage where I can help people with some of those. Go to events and don't be afraid to ask lots and lots and lots of questions you know it's it's whatever works for you is is going to be the best approach but just don't be afraid to try and actively expand your knowledge it takes a bit of proactivity I think is probably the key thing and the last thing that I would probably say in this on that front is not to be intimidated as well I mean I understand that and certainly in my experience copyright can be a very daunting topic there's an awful lot and there's a lot of complex interactions and thought processes and philosophies that go into it and there's going to be an awful lot that you won't know and and I doubt anyone will ever get to the point where they know everything there is to know about copyright but I would say be patient with yourself be go easy on yourself and and allow yourself time and space to learn a pace that works for you it's not a race you don't have to be anywhere with it you know just take time try to enjoy yourself and I always remain curious so that that's that's that's what I have to say and I'll share that link but I'm happy to take any questions whether we do that now or later thanks so much Chris that was fantastic what we'll do is we'll we'll have questions in discussion at the end but yeah just wanted to say thank you again and also reflecting on my experience of having brought you in and having to introduce you to some of these difficult topics and then abandon it and then a bad one not exactly a bad one while he was down that rabbit hole you disappeared you hopped off well I just wanted to say that you know you've done a really great job in the time that you've been there and picking things up and asking all those questions so actually for me it was an exercise in letting go of some of that everything needs to come to one person today so there are some perhaps things to discuss later before we get any deeper down that rabbit hole shall we move to the next presenter but thanks again Chris yeah thank you thanks so much okay so next up our next speaker in this exciting topic of becoming a copyright specialist is Wendy Limwood Wendy is at the London School of Economics my former place of work more than five more than five years ago now but really looking forward to what you've got to say Wendy about becoming a copyright specialist so there's your slides and take it away thank you great thanks Jay and I'm glad to say all through Chris's talk I've just had there's a tree shredder opposite my house that's the that's been making a great racket and it has just stopped so fingers crossed that stays off and so yes becoming a copyright specialist and I'm a little bit further along the line than Chris but I would say the emphasis is still very much on becoming rather than feeling that I am a copyright specialist but I thought I would just start with a little bit about my career path I'm a little bit longer in the tooth than Chris as well so I have a bit more of a history to me and so my first job post qualification was in a law firm in the city of London SJ Burwin and despite the you know Fortnum and Mason hampers that we were given at Christmas and the the swanky parties I decided that really the corporate world wasn't for me and so I took the opportunity to move into academic libraries with the year's contract at the LSE and that was to cover somebody who was also comment during the refurbishment of the library when that contract came to the end I was lucky in that the law librarian post at Middlesex University came up so I made the hop up to Hendon to become the law librarian there and I would say that in all those three posts my copyright just wasn't really on the radar so my knowledge of an interaction with copyright just just didn't really feature so after Middlesex I was lured back to Central London and went to Birkbeck as many of you know that's the institution that caters for part-time mature students teaching mostly in the evening and again I was the subject library for law you can see there's a bit of a theme developing in my career here as well as for the departments of criminology and psychosocial studies and it was at Birkbeck I think that my copyright awakening began so I was there really when the digitisation of materials really began to take off so the idea that you would provide chapters and extracts from books and so on to different modules within the VLE so most of my interaction there was around the CLA license and explaining what that meant to academic staff whilst at Birkbeck for some years I also managed the library's disability and dyslexia team so clearly copyright had an impact there as well and the sort of reforms in 2014 were really welcome in that context so having been at Birkbeck a very long time and being in danger of becoming part of the furniture I decided maybe it was time for a new challenge and so the post at the LSE was advertised so the law librarian and copyright officer so clearly I saw that and thought yes I can I am a law librarian I can do that but the copyright bit far less confident with that but that could be the challenge that I'm looking for so I was interviewed at LSE in early March 2020 and I joined in June and clearly in those few months the world turned upside down so the job I thought I was going to and the way I thought I would start was you know very different from the reality so I was kind of getting to meet everybody online I didn't set foot on campus for quite some time so that was really challenging I think the other thing I found challenging was the fact that I hadn't really been at anyone with a copyright brief for around three years I think before I started and of course who had had that brief before me none other than Jane Secker so that was also quite daunting to come in knowing that I didn't know that much about copyright and that Jane it obviously does so yeah that was that was another thing to kind of contend with amongst it all and so clearly I had to try and get up to speed and we all have to try and keep up to date and the kind of methods I used for both are quite similar so clearly I realised that my knowledge in this area needed a boost and pretty much the first thing I did was sign up to Liz CopySeq which was a very wise decision and that has been a real source of inspiration and and so on I read so Chris was mentioning about reading I think in the early flush of enthusiasm I did actually read the copyright and e-learning book cover to cover but I also plugged into into other books I'm a law librarian we have Oxford Law Trove so just looking at the copyright parts within intellectual property textbooks and so on as well I found helpful I found key sites and bookmarked them so things obviously like the IPO copyright user government websites and so on and I still go back and refer to those I'm a fan of the email newsletter so I signed up to receive emails on anything that would be vaguely relevant so things I have creative commons newsletters coming through things from Europeana create so yeah so that's another way that I try and stay up to date now I'm a bit of a lurker on Twitter so there's a theme here I lurk on Liz CopySeq by and large and I lurk on Twitter but I have followed a number of accounts so again organisations but also individuals such as Charles Oppenheim and Naomi Corn IP Cat I find really useful as well so that's that's another way of kind of keeping up to speed and then everything else I just anything I come across whether it's blog posts articles policy documents they all go into my Mendeley folder which could do with a bit of curating but I know that if I've seen it then the likelihood is I can come back to it through Mendeley and of course the webinars have been a real boon both in terms of expanding my knowledge about copyright but also about about keeping up to date so those have been extremely useful so who asks for copyright advice and what do they ask I'm sure this is very similar in everyone's institution so really it's a real mix I'm not going to read through the slide but it's a mix of staff within the library so from different teams in the library because copyright impacts on so much academic staff certainly when I first joined because of a pandemic I think concerns around what couldn't couldn't be done with media so streaming video and so on was a sort of often used often asked question LSE students are very ambitious so from master's students upwards really they they talk about publishing their dissertations and theses so we talk not just about their their use of third-party copyright but also being aware of their rights and what they might be giving away if they assign copyright to a publisher and other than that just various questions often around the use of images actually from around the school so both about the correct use of creative commons images flicker we've had some brushes with the problems with licenses that are licensed under earlier versions and then external users because we have these great national collections and a really excellent archive we do get quite a lot of reuse requests from that as well quite often we don't own the copyright and we have to explain that but we do get a fair amount of interest because of that as well okay so in the past two years what has surprised me about copyright I think firstly it's it's reach I don't think I fully appreciated before how it underpins so much of what the library does and also what the institution does so whether it's teaching or research related or considering our own collections and our own IP and how we share things it really it really kind of goes everywhere and so that's that's the first thing that I've learned about it the second thing was actually the amount of time I've spent working with other teams within the library and beyond I think I had this view of I might get a few email questions and write a bit of guidance and and that would be that but it's been a lot more than that there's a lot of expertise actually in the library already within archives within research support and so on but I think what people often are looking for is just somebody to talk things through with and just have that reassurance really that they're not you know a million miles away from what we think we should be doing and the last thing probably will not come as a surprise to anybody here but actually it's nowhere near as dull as its reputation suggests so as we know it's really fuss changing I mean we only have to look at the you know the recent government consultation which has just been reported on to see that you know there's changes afoot with the data exception but also I think it's very kind of the fact it's hard to pin down also makes it interesting so every inquiry really is an opportunity to learning I think that was in in the chat earlier on everything that I every question I I answer is kind of building that knowledge and building that kind of bank so to draw upon for future queries and I think probably the difference now from when I started a couple of years ago is that I know now that it's okay to not have the answer because often there isn't a definite answer it depends on a whole range of things including the element of risk that as an institution we're prepared to take so I think that's that's part of the thing is I'm now more comfortable in going well this is my take on it but you know it's it's open it's a gray area is one of my favorite favorite kind of phrases okay I just wanted to close by just giving a mention actually to the copyright community who many of whom are here today and just to say thank you really to everyone who's on this copy seek so those who ask questions and those who answer them I've lost count of the times that someone's asked a question and then maybe a month or two down the line I get something very similar and in the back of my mind I remember seeing it somewhere and I go back and delve into the archive and and that's really helpful in terms of helping me both with my knowledge and to answer the queries that I get but thanks also to those of you who don't look so you flag up the new resources you know you broadcast things on Twitter and and on your blog it's been incredibly helpful and I think I would have been completely lost without you so so thank you thank you thank you very much Wendy it's really lovely really heartening to hear as well some of the things you've been saying about the community we've got lots of things we'd like to pick up but we should let our next speaker I think come on and do their bit and then if we could if you could all do stay around for some chat I think that would be brilliant because I think there's going to be lots of things coming out so our next speaker is Neil Sprunt from the University of Manchester where he's teaching and learning services manager and the copyright manager so Neil who needs no introduction really and that is a hilarious slide I like it a lot I like yes take it away I'm glad you said my title so I don't have to sip it out it's quite worthy isn't it yeah so this presentation is actually quite timely because it's nearly 10 years to the day where I started my copyright journey and boy has it been a journey I had hair when it first started so my role has developed quite a lot over those 10 years but it's only been in the last year that I've actually had copyright in my job description let alone my actual job title and it only makes up a point two of my overall role so my role is basically I'm I'm mainly the contact for everything to do with copyright at the University of Manchester now to sum it up but how did it all start well it all began when I missed the meeting so to give you a bit of context the University of Manchester was audited by the CLA back in 2011 this was following some quite sort of dubious activities and practices by a number of academic staff at the University including posting and uploading entire books onto Blackboard and to personal blogs and things like that anyway we were audited we had our wrists slapped by the CLA and they told us that basically we needed to work harder as an institution in making our students and staff more aware of the copyright responsibilities that they had at the same time as this was going on there was a library restructure taking place and the teaching learning students team was being formed as part of that as we moved away from subject teams to a more functional model so the University decided that the library should be the place where copyright awareness and a copyright service existed the library decided that the teaching learning students team is where it should sit and I was on holiday in Sicily and missed our first team meeting where all our roles were given out and I imagine no one's told me this but copyright was probably last out of the bag and no one wanted to do it and I was given the honor and in a strange way it's probably the best thing that could have happened for the University copyright wise having that CLA audit and it was certainly the best thing that could have happened to me although I did not appreciate it at the time so I set about trying to get my head around everything to do with copyright I had no knowledge of copyright at all at the beginning so there was a lot to learn so I attended lots of training sessions again people have mentioned Naomi Korn and Charles Oppenheim and further down the line I also attended sessions that Jane and Chris delivered to I read a lot I tapped into Liz Copyseek again which was amazingly useful as everyone knows as a knowledge base more than anything else but then I had to go being into each and learning team and actually do some sort of copyright presentations and this was quite early on in my tenure and my first one was to a group of life sciences academic staff and I was kind of tagged on to the end of a presentation about lecture capture so they were all in the bad place from the very start and then they had to listen to me at the end of that presentation sort of politely explaining copyright law to them without fully really understanding it all myself and they were a bit upset so one of the lines I remember was do you expect me to just delete all the 47 YouTube videos I have on Blackboard then which I didn't really have an answer for he was like kind of you know better shoot the messenger mate it's not my fault but that experience did have quite a sort of profound effect on me in terms of how I approached copyright guidance from that event onwards and it became very clear to me that you had to talk about copyright in a way that made it seem like it wasn't the barrier there wasn't an obstacle and we all know this now as sort of copyright literacy and making people have an understanding of the issues around copyright that affect them but don't make it don't make it all about what you can't do try and find solutions talk about things like risk management try and make it understandable and being in the teaching learning and students team obviously that was a big part of my remit so we I set about trying to create a lot of online content to help with this so copyright information on our web pages was all over the place so I tried to bring into one live guide I tried to structure it based on user so it made it again easier to find information tried to make the language more understandable also developed a few sort of copyright resources that a staff and student could use and it kind of it's developed from there to be able to do all this though I needed a very solid support structure so there was myself in the copyright guidance service but we also had a copyright operations group within the university which sort of over was overarching developed copyright policy etc etc and that was made up of legal affairs media services e-learning teams teaching and learning offices all sorts of different people from across the university and we don't have that anymore because we put so much in place that now really all the legacy of that group is that it's myself and the legal affairs team so university lawyers who have a really really good relationship and we also work with the commercialization wing of IP at the university which is known as the innovation factory and it also built up lots of good relationships with other teams in the library so reading list teams special collections and research services scholarly comms and that was also really useful and outside of the library and the university there's also all the groups that I've been involved with in terms of sector so I started off in the scramble group which is no more but that also got me involved in other groups such as obviously CMAC with Jane Chris and Kate etc and I'm also co-chair for the academic libraries north community of practice group and a member of the copyright and online learning special interest group too and I've learned so much from being on these groups and what I have learned I've been able to take away and actually apply in my in my day-to-day job as well which has been incredibly valuable so overall what have I learned well I've learned that you shouldn't miss your first team meeting that's one thing but I think to reiterate what Wendy and Chris have said attending lots of conferences trying to absorb information reading going to different training sessions but realizing at the same time that even though you're absorbing a lot of information you can't remember at all building relationships has been really important for me especially within my own institution so I think I've communicated well with the people that I work with I've also built these relationships across the university which you know University Manchester is a big institution so communication channels don't always work particularly well but I think we now have some in place which work does work in terms of copyright tapping into communities of practice is just the given we wouldn't be on this webinar now if we didn't think that was a good thing asking questions I mean this has been brought up already so again it's a broader community of practice with Liz Copyseek but learning from experience as well so when I encountered that lynch mob from life sciences is I still took a lot from that even though it wasn't the nicest of experiences at the time and just mentioning imposter syndrome it's been spoke about already but copyright is quite a daunting topic but I think as a community we should appreciate them we know a lot more than we probably think we do and we are experts in this field and even if we don't remember we can't think about everything we have a really strong sort of network behind us so that's really good okay that's me done thank you oh wow thank you thank you Neil that's really really good to hear it was fantastic yeah a great you know once again three talks I think they really complement each other really well just to say Neil for the record the work that you did at Manchester was you know one that I followed when I was building things up at Kent as well you were clearly taking a lead in that something I saw when I did my dissertation and talking to people throughout the sector it is those institutions that managed to build together those collaborations within the organisation and actually get something really meaningful happening that allows you to to have that culture change that then avoids those those kind of example situations where you've got people and it's quite antagonistic we've I think everybody we're seeing comments there we know we've been in those situations and some of it is the situation that you create around trying to resolve that by by changing the some of the culture but some of it is like you say it's learning isn't it you kind of have to go through that to know how to handle those situations we've got loads of nice comments coming up as well so really yeah really great all of you we have got five minutes for questions though so if you if you've got things you want to ask we've still got Chris, Wendy and obviously Neil there with us so and I don't know if you want to ask a generic question to kick things off of all of our speakers Chris I've got an initial question I wouldn't mind if all speakers could reflect on whether the background that you came from you think had an impact on how you initially addressed copyright so I'm thinking about the fact that Wendy you're from a law library background and whether you it is a sort of law based looking at legislation legalistic thing is it helpful is it helpful in which and then Neil you're teaching and learning from that perspective and then Chris I guess from not really being within the history I'm doing yeah absolutely being a humanities researcher yourself and being very much in that mindset so I mean Wendy do you want to to kick us off with that a reflection on I don't know if you can hear that they're just chopping up trees again um it's fine no it's fine um I think it probably was helpful is helpful actually I think just knowing how legal information works you know the relationship between you know secondary primary and secondary legislation and cases and how it all fits together I think that has been useful I would say actually just also just being a subject librarian that background is also useful because part of that role has always been liaison and reaching out to people and trying to build relationships and I think probably that aspect has also been useful and certainly I feel slightly cheated having started in the pandemic because certainly if I'd started in normal times I would have been going out to have coffee with people and those kinds of things in a way I wasn't able to so I think that's just delayed building those relationships and they are getting going now but I think it's just taken a bit longer to get those going so I think it's a mixture of the subject knowledge and actually that that experience of liaison has been useful Excellent yeah what about Chris what do you what do you think? Yeah no definitely I mean it's kind of for me it was kind of like it's kind of like a mixture of things going on because as a historian certainly as a student I was a bit blasé towards things like copyright I just didn't enter the equation I mean particularly in the area that I was sort of occupying it was sort of like oh I'm quoting from a text that's fine that's what we do you know I'm going to archives and looking at things published by people who have been dead for hundreds of years you know no issues there it didn't really factor into my sort of my working process but on the flip side of that now that I am sort of engaged with that space I actually I think I mentioned to Chris when he was still at Kent that cerebrally I actually find that there's like quite a lot of similarity in terms of the method of thinking and the way that you look at the issues in copyright that you would as a historian I mean it's because there are those gray areas it's not necessarily a case of right and wrong black and white you know you can give concrete and full amounts you have to you have to build a case and make it compelling and influence other people of the advice and the benefit of the guidance that you're giving them rather than saying oh it's X or Y you know and I find that quite similar to sort of what you would do as a historian you know it's it's compelling a viewpoint uh I think that's very good advice is about to yeah yeah yeah no I I think as a history graduate myself I think I agree with you it is always you know the kind of challenging gray area doesn't seem to be a problem when you you're a historian because you're like yeah but that's what we're always doing way in stuff up and and trying to kind of work it out on the balance of you know our best judgment should we go to Neil yeah absolutely yeah so Neil what would you think from your perspective and the other things you do is teaching learning librarians yeah um well I think I alluded to it in the presentation but um it's taking that sort of teaching and learning ethos into my copyright work which is which wasn't the hardest part to be honest with you it because I mean the information that I had to deal with when I first started the job looking at different web pages that were scattered all over the library website and the university website it was all really detailed and there was lots of language in it used there was totally no one would have been able to understand it um it was understanding that a lot of students and especially members of academic staff they don't want to know about the details they just want an answer they just want a solution to the problem that they have that copyright is potentially blocking and so it was just trying to make everything more understandable and explaining things in a way that they understood and trying not to put barriers up and and trying to enable them to do their jobs properly but um and not letting copyright get in the way yeah yeah we've we've actually got a question that's come up in the chat from um Ingellil who's joining us this morning from Sweden lovely to see you Ingellil do you I don't know if you want to come on the mic and ask your question or would you rather I just read it out in the interest of time it's but it's lovely to have you here Ingellil maybe you might want to respond in a moment she said being a copyright specialist is a lonely job how can you share your knowledge with library colleagues and make them less frightened anybody like to respond to that I agree I agree it can be a lonely job but it doesn't have to be um I think luckily I have a team of 27 people so at least one or two of them um going in interest in helping me out with some copyright work and like I said in my presentation it's building relationships not just within the library but across the university has has been absolutely crucial if I hadn't done that and I hadn't had didn't have these mechanisms and channels to communicate with them it would be a really lonely job and I would have struggled yeah Chris are you you're nodding I think there would you agree yeah I think what Neil said about like especially in terms of you know trying to make the advice and the guidance that you give people accessible and not this sort of impenetrable daunting sort of you know massive of imposing law I think and I I think you know that helps whoever's coming with the question because you know you're you're presenting it in layperson's terms which you can and I and I also think that that approach certainly has helped me understand the issues that I'm I'm confronting and the questions I'm getting because you know I am not like an expert in this space yet you know I think reducing it down to the things that someone who's asking a question would understand helps me in terms of my own development too but you're right I suppose it can be a bit of a lonely space too especially now that I don't have Chris yeah no it can be but yeah I would say try to be accessible and friendly would probably be my approach thank you Wendy do you want to comment on that question at all um yeah no I this is actually something I've said in in one to ones that sometimes I felt quite isolated actually and again that I think particularly with being online and and so on um but sort of practical things we've done we've got uh just a an LSEY teams group that's a copyright group so um it's a lot of it is me posting but you know there's some kind of you know idea of sharing issues and knowledge and so on there um and also just in the library context we've just had them some lightning talks we had a whole kind of sort of session on copyright so where different people from within the library talked about how copyright had impacted their work and I think that sharing of kind of experience actually made everyone realise hey how pervasive copyright is but also helped people speaking about it to feel that they knew at least in their area um more more about copyright than they realised so yeah yeah yeah I mean I I certainly found that you've got to seek out those people that actually do really you know want to talk about copyright and I had a little community of practice when I was at LSEY and found that people did start coming out of the woodwork to want to talk about it um so but yeah Ingellill's saying she doesn't see herself as an expert but her colleagues do and I think that is something I found that sometimes when you're the specialist there's a tendency for people to just kind of want to you know just pass it to you and we've talked about the hot potato and I think it's what we talked about earlier on in the presentation it doesn't mean you know everything and as you were saying when it doesn't mean that it's your take on it and I think that's something that that we Jay and I feel as well you know as much as people say well you know everything well we don't know everything it's always you need other people's input into it um so I think it's great that we've had so many examples of how you've all managed to do that in your own way and bringing that in to make it a collective thing absolutely yeah thank you everybody thank you really enjoyed that it was a brilliant yet again three excellent presentations so thank you again I'm sure and we're getting lovely comments yeah from from everyone there and so what we're going to do now we are at time with the presentations it's just a reminder that there is no webinar in August we have provisionally looking at a couple of dates in September but we're very aware that ice pops is happening and it may be that we decide that we're running a webinar after ice pops with some highlights maybe some highlights from ice pops we're going to check when we've actually worked through and not over commit we're going to under promise and over deliver on that one but we are absolutely locked in for 7th of October a discussion on open textbooks uh with uh we've got Dara Snowden from UCL and we have Lorna Campbell from University of Edinburgh talking about their open textbooks um programs so that should be a really really interesting session absolutely yeah yeah so we're just we're just at that point Chris I think where it's it's always get your lighter in the air everybody or just pull on top of this yeah here we go right so so we've written a jingle which is about staying around and everyone and it prompts everyone to leave it is entirely well what what what nugget have you got through the end of oh one last thing by one last thing it is Jane Secker's tele snaps okay I have I I would like to discuss now with the people that have remained what they think of the copyright implications of what I'm doing I I have I have copyright implications or what the value is at all which is just taking pictures well that so I have taken some stills from yes get back which is obviously on the Disney channel which is so a subscription service and I have included them as excerpts in the slide I am also compiling my own tele snaps for future because you know in case recording becomes unavailable in any other medium I will have this google folder of of you know tele snaps that show pivotal moments I've got the Eurovision there I've actually got some great ones from the Jubilee as well I mean it in some ways is a bit like a scrapbook of your life because it shows you when you were watching something yes so anyone like to venture an opinion Neil what are you doing with the slides what am I doing with them why am I doing it what are you doing with them well I've put them into look here I've put them on a slide put them on a slide to what but you're not actually making these available are you no I'm not working for your own your own personal amusement all right it's something like a digital scrapbook yes your audio visual yes entertainment experiences yes yes my mom as well where there's nice pictures of Paul McCartney but I don't know if that counts as some sort of you know I am sharing with another person I think you're fine we are still recording okay we're still recording yeah we've had it on the record that's it we're fine yeah yeah we'll stop the recording that wasn't me that said that no no no no I just want to say for the record I occasionally I have of course sometimes to mock you in the things that you do and I was mocking you about this when we were talking to Mark Lewis and he says well I did the same thing yes so it's like okay I stand corrected fine two big brains two big brains against one yeah all right there we are yeah one tiny brain yeah two big brains against one tiny brain well leave it there I think we'll stop the recording now that's stopping sharing okay all right we'll stop sharing I won't stop recording bye I can't stop the recording no you can't can you no can you stop the recording no I'm not on the call anymore I have to click the three lines the hamburger at the top left here we go look it's just over there there it's not