 Welcome everybody back to the Segal talks here at the Martin E. Segal Theater Center, the Graduate Center CUNY out of Manhattan, still the epicenter of the COVID monumental crisis, the tsunami, the disaster, which we are experiencing, and we here at the Segal Center as always are a place where we listen to the voices of artists and we create a dialogue between academia and professional theater artists and the experimental scene and the establishment, but also international and American theater. We have done that for over 10, 15 years. Thousands of artists went through our rooms and we felt that especially now in a time of crisis and a time of uncertainty, it is important to continue what we're doing and even more important to hear from artists as we said in all our other emissions too. They are on the right side of justice, on the right side of history, on the right side of progress throughout centuries and one wishes people in positions of power would listen carefully and closely to what artists say, what they experience, the meaning they create and what they try to teach us, what they often foresee in their work, what they as Honsier would say, they anticipate the future, they have that gift and try to put it into a form to make us more comfortable with it, to reflect and to also understand that perhaps we live not even in the present, but mostly in the past and we should be alive, we should be in the moment. With us today, we have a very important guest from India after Abhishek Mombar and Anna Ruperoi is the second time we hear from this great, large, vast and significant country we do not hear enough from, we do not know enough. One of the oldest tradition of theaters in the world going back from the Katakali dancing to the Sanskrit theater, one of the earliest forms of recorders theater and form that are still practiced. So I welcome with us, with us like a Chaudhary and thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you. Carol Martin said, you know, Frank, you have to talk to her, you have to listen to her, your work is significant, is important, you actually base your work on the idea of lived experience and memory and the truth production of how truth and the law, you know, how can it all be performed and law and performance is in a way what we are doing now. We perform to be COVID participants and there's a social choreography going on to stay in our houses, how we can go out, how not, the distance, what we wear, the mask like in theater and we experiencing it all in a very different way. We had just this week calls from Hungary, this disaster situation where people were forced, 60% of people had to leave hospital beds. We heard yesterday from Romania where the police is going into aroma houses without any reason beating up women, children and others because they think they are the ones who brought the COVID virus. It is disastrous. What happens in many parts, others are doing so well like South Korea or we heard from Taiwan, even South Africa. Basil Jones told us, you know, that things are under control or alcohol, shops are closed, you cannot smoke, no cigarettes. And these are things are tough, but they are going well. So how is it in India when we heard last time on Rupa and Abhijak, it also was very, very traumatic. So tell us a little bit what is happening in New Delhi. That's, I guess, where you are and what time is it? It's now about 9.35 pm. And well, the situation in India is that, as you know, as both Abhijak and Anurupa mentioned, we have been in lockdown. In the last two days, the lockdown is theoretically supposed to have been not so locked down. So we've opened up, which means that private businesses can function at 33%. For example, domestic help can come back to work. I think there's no buses, there's no public transport. So this means the people who have their own cars or bikes, etc., can sort of slowly go back to work because everybody has to work. And as everywhere else, the economy isn't so hot. This has kind of happened at a time where we're also just beginning, I think, to begin to peak. So in the last, I think, two days, three days, I think, by yesterday, we were up to 50,000 cases. I think yesterday, Delhi had 500 new cases. So it's a bit, I think, everybody is partly in a bit of shock because everybody is worried. The alcohol shops opened yesterday after, I think, 42 days. And immediately, there were huge queues, there was no social distancing, nobody was wearing masks. I think some, I think Bombay has shut down again, if I'm not mistaken. Delhi is still open. The cases I heard in Gujarat, in the city of Ahmedabad have, they're completely locked down. For example, I think only chemists are open and very basic. So I mean, I think everybody is a bit tense and a bit concerned because we are just beginning to peak. We're just starting there. The situation with the migrant labours has been, as you know, also from Abhishek and Anurupa, quite an ongoing concern. Tell us more because I'm sure not everybody was listening. Tell us a little bit about that situation. Well, when the lockdown happened. How long was that ago? How many weeks have you been in lockdown? I think we went into lockdown on the 25th of March, if I'm around there, about the 25th of March. And the lockdown happened actually in four hours. So we were given four hours to prepare ourselves. Four hours. Yes, we were given four hours to prepare ourselves, which meant that work suddenly stopped, of course. And so, you know, all the big metros, and of course, other parts of the country have labour from elsewhere. And since the work stopped, they were, you know, a lot of people just had nowhere to go. Everybody also wants to go back home. And so, you know, in time when they ran out of food and they ran out of money, there was a rather biblical long march home that the labour was trying to do. Is it true that about 500,000 people tried to get back on their feet, some prepared to march a thousand kilometres without food, with children on their back? Yes, it was really quite, I mean, it was sort of a bit impossible to imagine. Did you see that with your own eyes? You saw that? No, there's nothing in the colony that I live, but, you know, it's a colony, so we wouldn't, and I'm inside, so I wouldn't see it. I think Anurupa stays. She saw that, yeah. Oh, yes. But of course, we all knew that. And then the states in India themselves went into a lockdown, so nobody could leave the state. So there were a lot of people, I think they were, couldn't cross the border, I just managed to, some managed to walk, but not everybody. And so they've been at the borders and the government has put them into shelters. So not everybody could, once the borders closed on, like between New Jersey and New York, they said, you can't go through us, you will bring the virus, so they'd stop and they also couldn't get back to the families, because the families were in lockdown, they can't, they were, so they were, so they are chems with tents at the borders or thousands of people? Yes, so I think schools were repurposed, you know, I think go downs were repurposed, but of course I think the, it was not very high, I don't think it's been very hygienic from the stories that have come out, also too many people, also not enough food. There's been, you know, random outbreaks of violence, which is very disturbing. What kind of violence? Well, I think because people didn't have, don't have food, because it's really unhygienic, because you know, nobody can be on the point, talk to their families, because they don't have enough money on their phones, they just don't have money, and so of course it causes a great amount of stress, because nobody knows what's going to happen. I mean, I can imagine if, you know, for all of us, it's a stressful situation, it sounds pretty, you know, it sounds really horrific. In the last two or three days, or two days, I think the government has, is sending people back now slowly from the shelter, so back to their homes. With buses or? I think trains and buses, I believe, but you know, they've been charged fares, which is a bit difficult to imagine how would they would pay for something, how they would pay for a ticket, so that's been quite distressing to hear. You know, and of course, you have to get, apparently you have to get a letter saying, or a piece of paper certificate saying that you don't have coronavirus, you need a photograph, and of course, I don't know how anybody can, not everybody can, yes, do this, so of course there's another test available, I mean, people stuck in tents, 200 or 300,000, of course, it is a condition for virus to spread, so it's all absurd. Yeah, so I mean, like with other countries, I mean, I think we're severely under testing, and then there's severe underreporting, so it's very difficult to really get a sense of correct numbers. Delhi has had several containment areas, so if they've found a street or a neighborhood that has one or two people, then they've sealed off the neighborhood, so it means that you can't exit, well, you basically can't get out of your house, and you know, there are police everywhere, so nobody can come in, nobody can go out, and there are basic services of supplies that are made that are home delivered, but the situation, I'm curious about what will happen because, as I said, we're just about peaking, you know, and so it's difficult to understand actually what's going on, I also just before we got on was reading something which said that, and I'm not sure if this is true or not, I mean, if the article is true or not, but it said that in India it's, you know, a lot of young people are getting affected, the average age is about 35, also apparently we're taking more than 14 days to show symptoms, so it seems to be another kind of strain perhaps, so it's a little difficult to get a sense of actually what's going on, side by side, I mean, I read reports that the labor doesn't want to, while we've opened up, and it is possible for construction work to continue, labor now, migrant labor doesn't want to stay in the city, so they really want to get back home, which means that there's going to be, you know, there going to be various kinds of problems forthcoming. Yeah, this is just incredible, yeah, and this is the big fear that this virus that up until now has been so stable that it didn't change, the tiniest mutations, if I understand right, and normally often a virus self-destructs or mutates, and that's why some people say, well, it must come from a lab, nobody knows, of course, for real at the moment, but, and then, yeah, that based on DNA, there's a different reaction to it, it's not the, one cannot understand why some countries are so infected, others not, in the US, perhaps yes, it's all catastrophic management, and there are many, many reasons for that, but still other countries are not experiencing it on that level, so there's so much uncertainty, but on what you describe, it is the most severe case from all the countries we have spoken to, and as some we have by now spoken to, but almost as in 25 different artists from countries, only yesterday we heard from Romania, we also, a migrant laborer was not allowed to come back or not encouraged to come back, but they don't have the families they work for, because they can't be in their homes in Austria, Germany, on the other hand seasonal workers are needed in Germany, in Austria, and the workers and the companies who will lease them out, protests, so they were allowed to go back, and even so everybody in Romania and Bucharest has to stay in their house, there were a thousand people at the airport without masks, without, to social distancing, so it's a chaotic system, but the numbers that we hear from India that 500,000 people just in New Delhi alone try to march home and then couldn't go on without food, I admire everybody who helped, I know Abhishek said he had a list of 1,000 families for one evening where he could choose where to deliver the food from, from the food bank he supports, you talked that you live in the art colony, is that a colony of artists, is that the one Anarupa mentioned where you live? No, no, no, I don't live at the art colony, I, you know, Delhi is, yes, colony means neighborhood or? Yes, it's a neighborhood, it's a neighborhood, where do you live, what neighborhood is it? Well, it's in South Delhi and it's a residential neighborhood, and it's a, well it's an upper middle class neighborhood, so if I was to look out of my window and go out onto my balcony, it, it's just, it seems very calm and quiet, there are people who go for evening walks. Are you allowed to go out? Do you have to wear masks? We do have to wear masks, we do, you know, yeah, you have to wear masks, I mean, nobody can force you to wear a mask, there are, there are some people who don't, you can, basically you really can't go outside the neighborhood very much because the cops can, you know, stop you, you're supposed to get a pass to indicate why you are going where you're going, but I mean, when you look outside and I think that's the, that's, I think that's the point as well that, you know, in some neighborhoods like mine, I have, you know, all my suppliers come to my house, I don't really have to go outside, and, you know, it's quite relaxed, there's no sense of what's happening in other parts of the city at all, and because you can't go, you know, you can't really leave your neighborhood, although I believe in the last two days since we have opened up, traffic has come back a bit, but you don't really get a sense of what, you know, what's, what's really kind of outside, and that really depends on where you live. Yeah, of course, yeah, we all experience it differently in which is highlights the injustice in the world between classes and social groups and what was wrong before is now being, being so open, you know, I think Richard Schechner said is an open nuclear reactor fusion, a catastrophe, but we are above it, we look at it and it is disastrous, it's strange to think that you say we are peaking, but on the other hand, the government opens up that people can take a bus where it's impossible to have social distancing. Not public transport. But taxi. Yes, apparently taxis, you can do them. And, you know, you can have one person in the front, two people at the back. There are no fines. Yesterday we heard from Romania overnight, the Prime Minister said everybody who doesn't wear a mask has to pay up to 5,000 euros, which is impossible for people to pay, especially of course minorities like Roma or others in Romania, so it is disconcerting what we hear. So for you, you are a theatre artist, how do you see that, how do you experience this? Well, I do want to say that actually, you know, this situation is, India has, you know, has been going through what we've been, I feel in a state of kind of, in an exceptional state now for some time, from, I would say for the last some years, because, you know, there have been a series of things that have happened within the last year, in August last year. I don't know if you know or not the government, you know, repealed the law in Kashmir, you know, which made it, which Kashmir has had the special status, and the government sort of basically repealed that status, making it, you know, it has no, it's part of India now and does not have, whereas previously from independence, it has had the option, at least theoretically of deciding whether it wants to be part of India or not. And this was repealed Article 370, which was repealed very suddenly. Kashmir went into lockdown. Yeah, great publication. There were protests then. Even cell phones were shut down. People could not use it. Internet was shut down. All of a sudden, of course, the Muslim minority, you know, was suffering and it's a clearly nationalist policy, right? Yes, and then we've had, which I think Anurupa spoke about, we had the anti-CAA and anti-NRC protests. Against the government, yeah. Yes, so I mean, the Citizenship Amendment Act basically says that minorities from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan, who are Sikhs, who are Christians, who are Parsis, who are Jains and who are Hindus, can get citizenship in India, but not Muslims. This in tandem with the National Register of Citizens, the combination of that has worried people that minorities can be made illegal immigrants. So basically... People who lived in India for generations, right? Yes, people who lived in India for generations, so basically... Have no passport, cannot prove... Well, you have to have the government outlined and this happened in Assam, which is in the northeast, and they have a list of documents which you need to have. Now, of course, not everybody has documents. And so a huge amount of people were then just... You know, there are detention camps in Assam. And so the combination of the two, and then I think in November last year, the Home Minister said now this would apply to the whole country. And so there have been huge protests all over the country about this. And so it's been a series of things in February, because of a clash between the anti-CAA and pro-CAA protesters. I don't know if you heard, but while President Trump was here, there were riots in northeast Delhi, again targeting the Muslim minority. And so it's been a series of very, very difficult moments. We've had protests non-stop. There's been violence against students, violence against Muslims. And one after the other. So it feels like coronavirus is one more thing in the midst on top of all of this. And of course, during this time, for example, activists have been jailed who participated in these protests. Muslim young scholars and students and activists who participated and who were part of coordination committees have been jailed within the last 10 days. And so it's actually been one thing after another. And it's been in some ways, I feel, a really important time. The protests happening were very, very powerful. I don't know if you heard of Shaheen Bagh and other protest sites where, for the first time, Muslim women came out. The majority of the protesters were Muslim women, some very old, other students. And it was very powerful, it's also very in a way. I don't want to use the word exhausting, but everybody was really going to multiple protests in a day because it's been important to show up for solidarity and just be there because bodies matter and this presence matters. And in a way, it has been, for me, also a very important moment to think about what theater does because in many of the protests I attended and these protests, of course, there's a coming together, there's a shouting of slogans, there's been music, there's been art. And there has been a kind of coming together as a community around, or communities around the ideas that are in our constitution. And it's very performative. And to be part of that, you are part of something equally imagined, but equally real. And you participate in that. For me, it's really been a moment I really did at that point, which was through December, January, February really have to, I've really been thinking about this question of in a situation like this that is so powerful and works with similar ideas of if you can imagine it and if you can perform it, if it becomes, in that way, it becomes real. Then it has possibilities and that played out in forums like this. I've really thought about what does it then mean to make theater. I also went, there was a People's Tribunal, which was about the police action in one of the states, Uttar Pradesh, where there was immense police brutality. And it was really interesting because I was there with a whole bunch of activists and it was a proper People's Tribunal. And it was again, very, very moving and very, very powerful up onto the point where one of the judges said, and because it was situated very close to the Supreme Court, said, I wonder what this means to the Supreme Court, whatever we say today, will it make any difference? And so I feel that it's a moment to really think about what one does in terms of what is the material that one uses, what is the form one takes. And I think more importantly, who does one perform to? I feel this is a very important question and something very much that I am trying to think through. So I mean, this moment is, I feel a pause, it's not a stop. It's a pause in some way because one can't do many things and the coronavirus brought a halt to all the protests because of course, nobody could go ahead. But government action, as I said, has continued, so in a way it's not a pause. It's interesting to see what is kind of unfolding and what will unfold. I mean, if one looks at the newspapers and you look at the reports and you see what is happening, what begins to unfold is makes you understand slowly what happens in a state of emergency or a state of exception. And what I feel is in India, we're in a moment of transition. And what happens in a moment of transition is I think very important because also important because the next project I'm working on is the trial of Bahadur Shazafar, who was the last Mughal emperor of India. And the trial happened, his trial happened in 1858. Just after what is called the mutiny of 1857 or the revolt of 1857 or the first war of Indian independence because this was a short trial. It's a very important trial because we came directly under the British crown after this trial and as a result of the trial. But what happens during this time is that it's a year of exception and it's a year of transition. And as I'm doing the research on the project, you begin to look at what happens to the judiciary. For example, one does some research into what happens with money during that time, who was funding what. So it's quite interesting to think about this time and that time because it's about trying to fit pieces together. When one reads different news reports, like for example, now after Goa, I'm sure you know Goa is one of our states. In 2018, the government had banned mining there. Now, apparently in the last week, a big mining company is trying to get it restarted because everybody needs jobs and this will provide it. Then you hear that the Supreme Court was asking, why is it important to pay migrant labor stuck here wages since apparently the government was giving them food anyway. Then you read reports about that kind of hint at the fact that India is kind of preparing to give land to companies that might want to invest here who are based in China, for example. So it's interesting to kind of slowly try and fit it all together because some narrative begins to become clear. So that's what I have actually spent some time doing because I'm interested in this what happens during an exceptional time. During a time, what happens to various institutions and what happens because I'm interested in law and law as the performance of the performativity of law. I'm interested in also what happens with law and what fictions become reality in a moment like this and what is performed and therefore made real. It's not only artists who do it. It's not only artists who bring into being realities. The right does it all the time. It does it all the time. So you said earlier on you said it's a time to think about what we do, why we do it and for whom. Share a little bit. What are you thinking about? What are your reflections at the moment? Well, when I was at this tribunal I met a lawyer whom I know and she asked me why don't you have you ever thought of using the trial format out in the villages using some of the material because one of the pieces that I was due to travel to Melbourne with and I couldn't because of the lockdown is a historical trial that happened in India. It is a trial about an imposter and the trial was about his identity and it is an interesting trial because A took 16 years and B it is an individual versus the state. So a very large estate in undivided India was owned by three brothers. The middle brother apparently goes off to a hill station dies there. The other two brothers die and the estate which is a vast piece of land is taken over by the British court of wards. One day a man an ascetic or like a monk sort of 12 years after this man has died is found in Dhaka what is now Dhaka and recognized to be this brother who has died. Basically the the court of wards refuses to recognize him and therefore he goes to court. So it's an individual going against the state to say it's me. So it's basically about it's a case about identity. The Melbourne project, the Melbourne version. So this project is in the form of a it's partly a reenactment partly a retrial. It has this project has a judge a lawyer and myself. It's called rehearsing the witness the Bhavel court case. One of the things I'm interested in which came from this material was the actor as an imposter or the imposter as an actor. So it really hinges on the actor at one level but it's also really looking at citizenship as performative. Also as you said in your work you try to perform the truth. I mean trials have been a legacy in theatre and of plays and now Mila Rao who did all the Moscow trials the Congo trials and Heinrich von Kleist you know is a great royal place and so many brecht and of course and others. So it is what is true and that the truth has different sides and you look at it in a way that perhaps represents laws that are superior to justice that is at the moment and is not progressive justice. Antigone who says I will bury my brother even so it's against the law but you are breaking the law of mankind of ethics and morals and she in a way sacrifices her life and for it it's unfortunate that all the herons have to will have to die at the end should be the opposite but do you do you feel at the moment because performing memory is at the center of your work do you feel that what happens now in this moment when you are New Delhi is that something where a performance tradition will come out or a way to perform this and will be something new it will connect people because everybody shared that experience is there something what you detect in the Indian theater scene New Delhi theater scene where you feel this will be a changer it will be a game changer. I'm not sure I think I think we're I think I'm not sure because of course at one moment it's a time to think and reflect and to see at the on the other hand of course you know everybody needs to get back to work it's not just about wanting to get back to work people also do need to get back to work um you know so it's it's it's too difficult to tell at the moment actually what this moment will mean and as I said earlier this moment is one moment coming on top of a lot of moments in in Delhi and in India at this time it's been one thing after another it also means that people in yeah people in Kashmir who had the lockdown imposed by Indian police now have another lockdown imposed by the same police you know it's a Guillermo Calderon from Chile who said you know we were out in the streets protesting in December the police were shooting into the eyes of protest about 400 shooting some of the kill but it was most probably in order and he said now the same police is pretending or trying to protect us and he said we can go out we can protest in Tunisia also like things are are on hold so it is a confusing situation and do you feel that theater will play a performance and they will play a role in kind of creating meaning sense out of it will people look at theater to to try to cope with this situation well as I said I mean the protest sites have actually emerged as a as also very creative space and it's urgent we're in an urgent moment now you know we're in one urgent moment after the next and I think people in the theater are trying to respond to that in a number of ways what do they do tell us or even in the demonstrations or right now what are Indian theater artists doing well either you I think either people or certainly while the protests are going on either people were trying to create new work as as part of the protests in the protests I think there were also a lot of people involved in organizing protests because there were many simultaneously in Delhi for example it was not just one site it was all over the city and a lot of people were involved in the organization of that there subsequently when the violence in Delhi happened I know that a lot of people were organized in relief efforts so you know organizing food and medical attention to people and as a result of that actually in this moment there have been already a lot of network setup which people are using now because there are you know there are a huge amount of NGOs non-profit organizations and you know people like Abhishek who are involved in and Anurupa who are involved in organizing making sure that you know finding out where there are pockets of people who have not received food by government relief efforts haven't reached or they haven't received it for whatever reason and then putting out calls for donations so that you know people donate and so they can get enough food and I think that I think that's equally important yeah I think it's very important and Abhishek said he cannot read he cannot write he can't sleep in the night all he does is immediate help it's impossible to even really consider this except he said that theater is important he felt that because government is forbidding it so there must be something of significance otherwise they wouldn't try to censor it meanwhile films people don't care but in theater for the things that for example that happened with Abhishek's play I think last year or year before last where it had to suddenly be shut down because there was a group of right-wing a right-wing group that showed up and the police apparently said you know told Abhishek this is what I heard and what I read that it was they wouldn't necessarily be able to protect them I think what is more concerning rather than looking just at you know whether the government prohibits things or not the state is that the situation is that it's suddenly a situation where any right-wing group can come and threaten your performance and somehow there is no one to protect you I mean how could the police say that I'm sorry we may not be able to protect you and that is really worrisome for me because it means that this is not just about you know this is not just it's not so simple anymore it's really about there was a production that happened recently two months ago in Delhi where apparently somebody in the audience was offended and made a police report you know this is this is to me more more concerning you know because society is also now deeply polarized and how does one kind of deal with that you know when the prime minister asked us to as he recently did to switch off all our lights and you know light candles for people who didn't their neighbors gave them a really hard time right this should be a choice mm-hmm yeah um and they gave them a hard time and I'm putting it I'm I'm putting it gently yeah this is more concerning I feel and India will have to think where as a country it is going as a one of the two models what is happening in China as a world power but also India is such a strong powerful country and what models will both societies find and we do all hope that India will stay on the side of openness on the side of fairness on the side of social progress it was the great philosopher Isaiah Berlin who predicted early on that Nazis never would win because he said it's a linear system one person is in power they might move very fast but if this one person is wrong there's no control mechanism there's no dialogue and that's why democracy as painfully slow as it is will be always superior as a system in itself and we all hope that India will stay on the side the signs are not encouraging and our heart reaches out for everyone yeah everybody who is suffering it's unprecedented I feel that such a big crisis is provoked by by a virus well as I said this is also from before the virus the virus has you know not made the situation easy and it's allowed for a bunch of things to happen with our and because nobody can go out and protest it's just happening it's just happening yeah so your work is so significant and important so how do you how do you spend your day now tell us a little bit when do you get up what do you do do you find time to write as a theater artist a director what do you do in your neighborhood in your apartment in New Delhi well I I have I I I have two kids I have two dogs so the day I spend my day doing some housework luckily my kids are on some other schedule which means they only get up much later in the evening because my son still has classes he said and by is it America both kids study in America right so my son is in Chicago so he has classes so he's up in the middle of the night because of the time difference for his classes so I mean the day is quite my daughter has just finished high school so she's supposed to be in college in America in September but we don't know how that's going to pan out so I spent some time doing household stuff through the day I run a theater archive so I still have that work that I do through the day I spend some part of my day thinking I spent some part of my day researching my my new project and by the evening we all go on the terrace and spend some time with the dogs I look for rain every evening because it's now getting very hot and then the kids and I try and spend some time over dinner either looking at listening to talks or talking about art and activism it seems is the general topic of conversation at the moment and the day is pretty filled actually between all of this it's not so difficult for me I feel I'm in a way I'm in a way quite happy to have the time and I suspect it's also one we'll have to adjust to what it means not to be traveling around the world as often as one does I think what does it mean when one says you know there's a lot of oh the world must change and it all should change I think this is not so easy when you think about it in terms of one's own life what does this mean when will we choose not to travel as much as we do I think about that a lot because I feel that you know as everybody has said there are some warning signs over here about what's to come and what can come could be worse than this and what does it mean to actually take that on it's not just words to say things should change actually that has ramifications for all of us in our day to day lived life right shall I how many times a year will I be able to travel should I travel if I can travel what does it mean in terms of you know how I how I live my life and how I am with people I work with and for people who work for me what does this mean in terms of my interaction with them I think it's not going to be that easy and I and I personally am not sure that there's going to be a big change because while everybody says they want it everybody's also trying to get back to a normal right so I mean I think it's for me it's a curious time because I don't know what's to come I don't know if it will get worse if it will be better if it will stay the same it's too if it it feels too soon to tell and it feels like this could easily be just a small couple of months that we'll remember that we all had to sit down at home and we could you know and we weren't allowed to go out so I I'm not sure I feel it's quite a difficult moment to assess I feel it's important to be able to do what one can do so yes if one can donate one should if one can look at what is to be done for the ecosystem of theater because it's a varied ecosystem there are artists who work with artists who work with traditional forms who you know should be making engagements and because they have to go out and perform so that they have money for the rest of the year they're not they're not being able to do that and so you know there are organizations and people who are also crowdfunding for them for different kinds of artists for street performers and so the time is spent actually with that and I think that that's very important I think it's very important to stop thinking about oneself and to think about other people and think of ourselves as a community which seems to have happened at the moment you know everybody I feel is quite concerned about one another and is not necessarily thinking about well when can I do my next show you know and I think that's very positive I think the last three four five months have been a rehearsal for this time also to build network networks of support you know which are coming very much in use so I think I think that's that's quite critical and important I think in terms of my own work having to think about this present moment and how one since I do work with historical material how does how does what does historical material what can it reveal about this present moment that we're in about you know states of exception questions of identity and it actually quite a lot of issues that you know are at stake in India at the moment that's important to me the form that it takes as I said I've been working with the trial formats you asked a little earlier what that what I meant when I said where do I show the work so far I've shown the work in you know mostly in sort of a visual arts context so in a Biennale or a situation like that and these and I'm asking myself whether these are the only places I can show my work or should show my work because after all what is one what is the work about the work is about unfolding or questioning actually what art does in in one way my series landscape as evidence artist as witness puts the artist as a witness and their art is evidence so the question is if art claims and which I believe it can also do whether it's you know if we're saying that art asks an old question in a new way or puts forward a new claim what happens when you put that material in a place like a court can it do that does it do that because I mean I do believe that what art generally can if I was to kind of be very general about it is that it yes it can rearticulate something it can reveal something and that's very important if one has to find new perspectives find other ways to look at you know something that seems to not be shifting out of its status quo but I also feel that this has to be put to a test and that's partly what my projects do the the project is self-reflexive it's also a question to myself and what I do on the other hand the historical projects trials as I said is a way to look back into history a bit to see to try and see if one can trace where where we are right now the question of identity is very important at this point in time who the government the government is asking people at this time with you know the CAA and NRC to basically take the onus on oneself to prove that one is the citizen you know there is a we have a lived experience of you know there are people who are born here who spend generations here to be asked now to prove you are who you are you know it's something to be considered it's something to be thought through and of course then as the protests they challenge it because the protests earlier in the year basically people were saying I will not show my identity papers I won't do it you know which is an exceptional and unusual thing to say but I think it's important to think about who one speaks to speaking to you know am I speaking to visual art spaces art elite spaces anyway right am I preaching to the converted you know am I wanting who am I wanting to do what I think that's a very very important question at this point of time in as much maybe questions of form and aesthetics in as much as it might be conceptual or you know theoretical I think where if one chooses to do this kind of work one can't put push it to only a singular point one has to then see and if it's a question of reality and if it's a question of you're trying to you know you're trying to do what in any case I'm beginning to feel as I said earlier the right does exceptionally well now which is bring make fiction into fact very quickly and very strategically and very effectively and we've seen that play out not just in India we've seen it play out in most parts of the world and then one has to really think about okay but then you know what is it that I'm what is it that I can do and does it have any meaning and resonance and relevance and can it can it actually make a change you know and as I said to me it was really profound to be part of these protests which really brought forth it made something that is in one's head and in one's heart it made it very real real enough for it all to be shut down pretty superfast and you know people hold off to jail so I mean it's a critical question for me I'm beginning to hear from other people and I think it's a critical question for a lot of people in the arts thinking about what they do who they show it to and what does it mean to say we want a change or we want to work towards a change and that's not going to necessarily happen if we continue to show our work where we show it if we do our work as we normally do it I mean at this time it's quite clear that we can do quite a lot of work sitting at home we can speak to people or look across the world and yes it's lovely to be able to fly across the world and actually meet them but it's also very possible to work in this way and is it something that one should continue to do because it's more sustainable you know can one's time also as I said earlier should it only be devoted to doing one's own work or I'm deeply impressed by a lot of people I know because they're putting all that time into organizing food organizing money for different artists and of course I participate in that and actually that's what my conversation with my kids is about is about as well is that how does one move from here when one thinks one is an artist or one is doing artistic work what does that actually mean you know what what does it mean in terms of what one does is it only about going into rehearsal spaces and working there is it about really thinking about who you work with and that you know the process of rehearsal and working is also equally important in terms of when you choose who you want to work with and what that means for them what does that mean for you and how does it reach out I think is because it's very easy to just get stuck in a theater and think this is it you know and make all the big changes on the stage and think that one has done everything I think that is important but I think it's also important to do more at least that's what the last year has meant for me and to think about how how how that is possible because in one way or the other people have really been putting themselves at risk you know whether it's somebody who chooses to go out and actually at this point whether with a mask or not and with gloves or not you're handing out food you're out there in the open you're meeting hundreds of people that's a risk whether you are yeah whether you are organizing a protest at a point when you know that the police can come down at you the government can come down at you and you go on doing it that's a risk and so it's important I feel for my children at least and that's what I'm talking to at the moment to understand to understand that that's also a part of it yeah yeah I think we really are forced to to to face these existential questions we all know about also death you know that is happening now around us and and which always has happened anyway I mean we had a RST who said 400,000 people die of malaria every year in Africa no one cares we don't even have money for measles vaccinations and so for us as you say this one of the many things and but I think it is a time really to to to go a little deep inside so thank you really for sharing it was very meaningful for me to hear what you say and what you think and it would be also interesting to see where it will go because if you perform memories and you know how will that we find a form to really and also reach people and as Milo Rao also said in that old Brechtian idea it's no longer enough to represent the world as it is it's time to change and to call for action and this is something we hear new spaces outside the the traditional ones if it had worked what we did perhaps the world already would be different but perhaps also we have to ask our selves in this theater community and performance maybe something it hasn't been working fully maybe as we accuse politicians to have forgotten about the workers they health care workers the people who put their life but it was maybe we also have forgotten about them as potentially it's not just being audience as humans will come to share our experiences and we have to reach out and to them so really thank you so much and I'm sure we will check in with you and India what is happening there it is so so so traumatic also and so so significant and I hope it will find a way to steal that big ship in the right direction and the voices of artists and your work and to tell truth and this is what it is about in law but as well as in in art and in science it's about the truth and there is a truth and something is truthful and that's a compass we can we can follow so thank you so much our next program tomorrow will be with Stacey Klein from the double edge theater farm outside in New York City where they do work for many decades you know and the tradition of a physical theater perhaps or connected to Eastern European and way very unusual and then Mr Stephanie will have we will have with Stacey Klein we will have Stephanie Monso who runs the New York City Bandelstaff Family Circus also a significant art form a popular art form that has been perhaps overlooked I think in France with the Cirque Nouveau movement over 400 companies are doing fantastic and great work I think it still has to develop and catch on I think in the Americas Canada perhaps is doing a better job with Sto and others you know but these are also things how what does it mean for these communities in Corona Tom how are they going to survive what does it mean and Circus of course is about traveling is about connecting having many people families coming in it's all not not possible but again really truly truly so I just thank you so much for taking the time and for sharing this and well where your work is so important is significant you act locally but you think globally and you are a great representative of our community the one we know also the world of performance and theater and congratulations and we admire all of you Abhishek and Europe I knew and and I hope one day you will come back to New York and and we can see or I come for a visit so thank you so much and to our listeners thank you for taking the time to listen you know how much is going on and how much also is online and we also have to be careful and as Lula Arias said from Argentina and a great contribution on Monday she said you know I I'm alone in the way but I'm not really alone I'm with my family I don't even have the time where I could normally create and I'm with my family but also not with my big community she said it's such a strange time and she looks since seven weeks out of her window the thing the same trees whose name she likes to learn so um so it's an unusual time so thank you for all of those who do listen that we can be part of that um that time I think it's very significant to hear the voices also from around the world and not just our own experiences and and I hope you all will be back thanks to howl around for taking on to host us every day during the week we are the only theater institution as far as we know in the Americas that's also European that every day produces new content related to this so um this is quite um quite an exceptional time also for us and thank you to the CEDA team and the Sanyang and Jackie so thank you and good luck and bye bye stay tuned