 Welcome to Inside Leather History of Fireside Chat, a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. I'm Doug O'Keefe, host of the chats that I produce with Mistress Joanne Gaddy. Today, I'm having a Fireside Chat with Sheldon Harrison. How are you Sheldon? I'm fine. Great. Let's just start right at the very beginning. We wanna hear a little bit about you for these chats. You were, just to introduce you a little bit to my audience. You were a very, very prolific clothier of sorts in Chicago, a tailor, a leather maker, and an all-around sort of community personality, I think. A lot of people knew you. So, tell me a little bit, where are you from originally? Well, I'm from a little town outside of Flint, Michigan called Flushing, Michigan. And we, it was a farm 40 acres. It was a project to keep the kids out of the city that my dad, my mother come up with. So, they moved us to the country and there was like six houses on the whole mile. So, and we thought we were put in purgatory because there was no kids to play with. Oh my. So, we had to find our own things to do. And there was no sidewalk, so we couldn't ride bikes and it was all very sand. So, you couldn't pedal a bike too well in the sand. And so, it was a real change of life for us. But we adapted quickly after my dad got us some animals to keep us busy and feed. And the first animal was a pig. My uncle gave me a little piglet. And so, that was something that I had to take care of and get up every morning and feed and all that kind of stuff. What was his name or her name? Daisy. Oh. Yes, and Daisy, Daisy got bread and she had 13 little ones. Well. Yeah, she was very prolific. And so, when she gave birth, my dad would go out and check on her during the night every night. And so, this one night woke up to pig squealing. And since she had 13 of them, she couldn't possibly take care of all of them at one time. So, a couple of them got sort of pushed aside while my dad brought in four little ones to my mother and we had electric stove at that time arranged. And so, she turned down the oven on very low temperature and got some towels and put in the oven and put these little pigs in the oven was rubbing them and so, they were screaming. Oh. And so, that's what we woke up to about three o'clock in the morning. So, that was our first animal and we all got to both my sister and myself. We got to choose one pig that was our own and we could keep until we sold it at market and got the money and all that kind of stuff. Well, you told me when we were preparing for this that your grandmother and your mother had a very big influence on you. Tell us about that. Yes, well, my grandmother was a, after my grandfather died in 53, I believe, she went to work and she was a professional alteration woman. So, she worked for a big store in Flint and she did obviously a lot of sewing and all that kind of stuff. And so, there was a time when I would go spend a week with her in the summer. And so, she's the one that got me going on the sewing machine because she always had her sewing machine set up and was doing something at home. And at one time, I was down to my grandmothers and she had some extra fabric and I had a younger sister by then who was probably about four or so. And so, my grandmother helped me make a skirt for her. So, that was the first part of my real sewing that I got into. So, that's how, and then my grandmother also knew of this school in Chicago in which when I got out of high school, she gave me the name and I made an appointment to come to Chicago and interview with a school. And so, I started to take fashion design. But let's take a step back to when you were still in Michigan. How were you developing as a young man? Did you have a concept on homosexuality? I didn't other than what I come from a very bigoted family and there was nothing ever positive set about homosexuality. It was sort of talked down about. And so, it was something that was evil and bad and all this kind of stuff. But there was never any discussion about it. It was just dropped, sentences dropped here and there throughout things. And so, it was not a whole lot of forethought went into it. But then you mentioned eventually you went on to Chicago. What brought you to Chicago? Well, let's see. When I got to Chicago, it was being a little bitty hometown country boy. I had never seen big buildings or any of the going ons in a big city. And everyone told me that when I was to take the cab ride from the train station to the Lawson YMCA that the cab driver would take me all over the city before he got me to the Y. And then I'd have this big bill. So I needed to watch where I was going. So when I got in the cab, I had my map and I read the streets and I could see where we were going and he was fine. He took me right to the front door. When I got to the front door, this was something I had never seen before. A four compartment revolving door. And I'm standing there with a small trunk, two suitcases and a briefcase that the cab had just set on the sidewalk in front of the building. And I'm looking at this door. What the hell am I going to do? And it was a little of a hassle, but this nice young man helped me get the stuff into my room. Then after I got into school, I came home one evening and the maid had, this is before air conditioning, and the maid had left the window open. And so when I opened the door, there was a nice breeze going through. So there was a night latch on the door which left the door open five, six inches. And so I put the door on that latch and was sat at the foot of the bed in the chair, the only chair in the room and was reading and this face appeared in the door. Okay. And said, can I come in? Well, it scared the crap out of me. And so I jumped up quickly and slammed the door. I'm sure I creased his face. And then I'm sitting there thinking after a while, maybe this is what I wanted all along. I think later that night, when I put the door on the night latch and sort of the bed was right there beside the door. So if you were laying on the bed, somebody could look in and see you. And I happened to notice there was other men laying on the bed in front of the door when I went to the john. So anyway, I did let someone in and we had a little, I don't remember exactly what he did, but I think probably a blowjob or something of that nature. And so that was the start of my sexuality in Chicago. Coming back a little bit. Yeah. Tell us about some of the gay scene you experienced at that time. Well, I didn't, again, I didn't know a whole lot until 1969, I did run into my first lover in one of the cruising areas near Howard and Paulina. There used to be, it used to be wild around that area of cruising and cars would cruise around and get out and walk around. And it was really fun. So I ran into my first lover there who at that point was twice as old as I was. So he was a good teacher to start me off into the community. And so it was very different for me at that point, but it was also very comforting that I had someone that was much more tuned to the gay community than I and showed me a lot of things. Well, you said you were shown a lot of things. What things did you see? The first bar I went to was a bar called Kitty Shane's that was a nickname the Wrinkle Room. So this is like in the, I would say maybe the early 70s by this time or 70. And so when I walked in being just over 21, the people sitting at the bar were facing inward. And as we walked in, it looked like they were cued because each bar stool turned around and looked at me as we came in. And it's like, holy cow, what is this? Well, then he explained that the owner who was Kitty Shane was not, did not allow the guys to set face in each other at the bar. They had to set facing inward out of the bar. They could talk, but they couldn't face inward. And so it was a very strict code. And I guess that's the way she kept forgetting rated too much because there wasn't, they couldn't concept that there was a lot of stuff going on. And watching all these people, of course I was like a kid in a candy shop. Look at this, look at that, look at this. So that was my first experience at any bar. And I had heard about the Gold Coast but had never been in there yet. And so Bob had a friend who frequent the Gold Coast and he said, well, let me talk to him and see if he would go with you or take you some night. And so we arranged it and I went with him and he took me on a tour of the upstairs and then took me on a tour of the downstairs. Well, it was something, the downstairs was part of it was underneath the sidewalk. Okay. And that's when they had vaulted sidewalks so that they just opened and there was a bar underneath the sidewalk. But we went around and toured the basement and then we went back upstairs and he said, that's it, you're on your own now. Well, I was sort of frightened and so I stood by the front door thinking, well, now if I stay here and anything happens I can get out really fast. So I'm standing there sort of observing a lot of things that's going on and I overheard two guys next to me. They were talking about recipes and they were talking about making a quiche. Okay. Now I thought, this is just all right, this is okay. I don't think I have to be frightened anymore. Well, tell me about some of the things you saw there. Was anything shocking? Well, yeah, all the cowhide that these people were wearing. I had a vest, it was a leather vest but it was not a vest like this. It was a button down the front type vest. Okay. And so it was just a regular off the rack of vest. And so that was what you had to have leather to go downstairs and so on. So that was my first piece of leather but to see these guys all dressed from head to toe in cowhide and this very intriguing leather sort of was a mind blowing and also got my mind thinking about how wonderful it would be to fool around with somebody all dressed in leather. Okay. And so I think probably I went there, I don't know, several times and never really done much, just sort of looked around. Well, then after going there by myself and finding out what goes on in the basement. What did go in the basement? There was a lot of fooling around in the basement and so there was a lot of cock sucking and there was even some fucking going on which was a new thing to me. And so obviously I had to watch to see how it was done. And so that was sort of my bar of choice after that but I did learn a lot and go to a lot of the bars and restaurants that was frequently by gays. If they weren't a gay restaurant, there was a couple several that were frequented a lot with gays and the management was really good and everyone got along. What places do you remember? There was one called The Little Corporal which was on Wacker. It was in one of the big office buildings where Wacker makes that turn and goes into like Michigan Avenue area. There was a restaurant there that was a late restaurant and a lot of the guys would go there after the bars closed. So I think maybe The Little Corporal was open all night long and not sure all the time, 24 hours but we would go there a lot after some of the events and so on and it was always filled with hot men and they didn't even, I mean, there were leather guys come in, there were fluff queens coming in, there were just all kinds and it was such a mixture of people that was really nice to see with seeing all these guys able to get along. Wow, so the gay scene by the sound of it was much further downtown at that time. Yes, yeah, most of it was in court. The Patan was down there, the Gold Coast was down there. It was a couple of other smaller bars and that's where the bistro opened up eventually was down in that area. So there was a lot of gay bars and stuff in that area and it wasn't built up, there wasn't the apartment buildings and living in that area. It was pretty much industrial. Oh, I see, I see. And so that at nighttime it was, I mean, the straight people weren't there. So it was quite a nice area. So you alluded earlier that bar raids were very common at that time. Tell us about that. I would think younger people in the audience may not be aware. The police really didn't have a set pattern it's just what they happened to feel that they wanted to do. And one of the raids that I remember the most of there was a bar little more on the north side it was called the trip and it was in the near north area and it was in an old three flat stone building. And they had three levels and at the basement was a restaurant. The second level was a drag show entertainment. The third level was a disco. Oh, well, okay. And so it was when it first opened up it was membership only. And that was one of the ways that they tried to be control of the police because they just couldn't. And so everyone at the door had to show a membership. And it was also, I think one of those underlying laws that they were members of the establishment so therefore they weren't just people off the street. Yeah, yeah. So, and that kind of curtailed but the day that they were raided or the night there was a high known figure in the bar which was mayor, the old mayor Dailey's son not the one that was the mayor, but the other son. Got it, okay. Was in there. Well, they would publish all these names in the newspaper of who was in the bar that was raided and they would take them to jail they would do their fingerprinting and booking whatever the and let them go just to get a rundown on the people that were there. Well, then that was published in the newspaper. And so all these people were shamed by being in the Chicago Tribune of being in a gay bar. Well, that was Mayor Dailey's son. So that was a lot of rhetoric at the time but that soon got squelched and it didn't hear too much more of that. It was sort of pushed under probably daily paid off the newspaper or something. Oh yeah. And got it out of the way. But that's the kind of shit that they would do and I mean, they would just all of a sudden they'd want to raid another bar and just to keep their presence and their fears of the people often that's how they were kind of controlling. And so it was, I mean, you took your life and your hands when you went into the bar so as to speak, but there wasn't, I don't recall any brutality. I mean, there was handcuffs and there were things of that nature. And there were a few stories of guys and how much of that was created in their own mind when they were arrested, I don't know. But they just put them all in a paddy wagon and off to the jail and then they booked them all and got all their information and let them go. Interesting. Did anyone ever fight back that you know? At that point, I don't think so yet. We hadn't been Stonewall yet. It was just easier to go along with the flow than it was to try and fight back. And then I think that the gay guys were not united enough to stand up. So if one stood up, I think he was alone. I don't think there was too many people that would back him at that point. And so it was kind of harsh to do that. Well, in another interview I did with Marge Summit, some years ago. Yes, I know her. Yeah, she's lovely. But she said in bars that she frequented at the time, they kept money in their shoes in order to bail one another out. Did you have to do anything like that? I did not. I don't, maybe I was just lucky. I'm not sure, but I did not have to do that. I didn't, I don't think, I even know of anyone that called for bail money. Oh well, okay. So that part of it, I was pretty fortunate. Okay, and you said you didn't really remember any brutality. No, I didn't. I mean, it was, I think they were just doing it to be assholes and they didn't do a lot of brutality. A little bit later when Stonewall arising and that came about, then they started sticking up for themselves and started rebelling out a lot of the things and did a lot more brutality at that point. Wow. Because then the police fought back because they couldn't have their way. Yeah, yeah. Tell us how your kink and leather journey continued. Well, the store right behind the Gold Coast that was entered, well, you could enter it two ways. When the Gold Coast, the lower basement was open, you could enter it from the basement, going into the, they had a small store down there that sold more of the accessories, cock rings and lube and ball stretchers and that sort of stuff. And for a while in the evening, both stores were open upstairs and downstairs. So you could go downstairs and then you could go upstairs and you could shop back and forth. But they also carried a lot of Western wear. Okay. And this is when the Western scene was quite big and a lot of guys would go to the buyers dressed up with cowboy hats on and, you know, Western clothing and all that kind of stuff. So it was a little more, another kink I guess you could say, rather than just the leather. So at that point, Malehide had a lot of Western shirts and they carried Levi's. They were known for the biggest range of sizes of Levi's in the Midwest. Whoa, okay. Because Bob stocked them and he also had them pre-washed because as we know, the old Levi's used to shrink so you never knew what size to buy because you don't know what they were. So he would take all the Levi's and take them to a laundry and have them hot water washed. And so all his Levi's were pre-washed and people could come in and try them on and they fit. So they didn't have to worry about them shrinking much. Before we get too far, please tell us who was Bob so that the audience knows. Okay, Bob was one of the owners of Malehide Leathers. Bob and Frank is the two that owned Malehide Leathers. Frank was the original one who started hand crafting some of the leather products. A little history is that Bob belonged to one of the, as back then they called the motorcycle groups. Yes. Though none of them I don't think had motorcycles, but it was in a name. Yes. And so Bob belonged to one of these groups and Frank got wind of that all these guys wanted vests and things so he started making things at home. So he was still working then. And so he would go home in the evening and make things and a lot of it was like cock rings and arm bands and small things of that nature. And so then he would take them back and sell them at the Gold Coast in the basement. Okay. And take orders for the next work. So that's how he actually got started in the business and most of these guys were friends of Bob in his motorcycle club. Okay, okay. And so that's how it started. And it just kept involving from there. And then it got so big that Frank actually quit his full-time job and went to work and making stuff for male hide. And he did take some courses in sewing and so on. And so he then was able to employ a couple of people who had a little experience in sewing. And so that's how male hide got started. And they did sell a lot of ready to wear as I said, the Western stuff, but they did sell a lot of and Bob would go to the markets, the menswear shows, and buy things that he thought would sell in his store. Okay, okay. And so there was t-shirts. I mean, he had a lot of t-shirts and a lot of t-shirts printed for them. And so that's how they sort of kind of got started in the leather business. And then it just developed more and more and more from there. How did your involvement begin with that? Well, at this point, I was, had already graduated from fashion design school. I was working for a wholesale florist, which was not very far from where male hide was. And at the wholesale florist, we started at six in the morning and got out at three. Okay. So at three, then I occasionally would go over to male hides and shop in the store. And this one day I went in and there was a sign in the window saying, Taylor wanted. And so I thought, hmm, this looks like it could be interesting and having a little experience in the leather business at that point or the leather community. I asked about it. And so he Frank got very excited because the gal whose name was Sherry, who was there before I was also a graduate from the same school that I went to. Okay. So I went to work there part time. I think I would go to work there at four and they were open till eight at night. And so I would work four hours in the evening. So I was working two jobs back at the wholesale florist and to male hide. And I did that probably for six months or more. And so that was a good start in getting into the leather business. And then the florist industry was having a cutback in sales supporting departments. And since I was one of the early employee people, I got fired. Well, there was always this thing that Frank would say to me, oh, when are you gonna come to work for us? And I said, Frank, you can't afford me. Hmm. And he got sort of flustered and, what do you mean I can't afford you? I said, settle down, I'll tell you because the wholesale florist was a big company and they had a lot of benefits. Okay. I said, you know, I know that you can't afford all these benefits that I'm getting from the florist. And so I said, that's what I meant that you can't afford me. And so we had some discussion and then when I was fired from the florist, I did not tell him for about two weeks because I only wanted a little time off to start and do things of my own. Okay. And so I sort of just worked the male hide leather for four hours a day. And then when I did tell him that I had been let go from the wholesale florist, he said, well, you are coming to work for me, aren't you? Huh? Like demanding. And I said, well, yes, if you can pay my insurance, I think we could work out something. So they did. And so I was there for close to, well, it was over 15 years. Wow. Okay. And so it was a long stint, but it was really fun. And, but before I went to work there, I had made my own chaps. Yes. Out of, this is before I even started to work a male hide because having the background of a fashion designer, I knew how to sew and all that kind of stuff in school. So I took a pair of old Levi's that fit me and I cut them up into how chaps were styled. Okay. And so, and then I made a pattern from that and I was able to get some cow hide and I made my own chaps on a regular home sewing machine which was a little tricky because a home machine is not quite made for sewing over some of the layers of leather. Sure. And so a lot of it, I had to hand crank the sewing machine through it. And there's a special needle that you use for leather and all this kind of stuff. So I was able to make them and no one knew that I made my own chaps. But what sorts of things did you learn to make while you were at male hide? Well, I learned to make just about everything male hide sold because of the, eventually I ended up having two to three workers that I was to oversee. Okay. And so I had to know how these things were done in order to be able to teach them. Right. And I'm a very quick learner on things because I can pretty well watch and see how things are being done and put them together. And I'm also very good with my hearing because I can tell people around me what they're doing only by listening to the noise. Oh my gosh. Or what's going on. So one of the workers called me Sally Sonar because I wouldn't even have to look at him and I knew what he was doing. And I had a good rapport with my workers. And so a lot of them I would, or somebody brought would bring something to us and want to know, I borrowed this from a friend. Can you make this? Okay. And so that would then put my skills to work for fashion design. And I would without deconstructing it I would be able to make a pattern and create the same type of thing that they had. Wow. So it was that part of it was kind of fun. And I also taught Frank some things that I had learned in school. He would say, can you do this? And I said, sure I can. He said, can I watch? And so our tables were side by side almost. There was a shelving system between but they were side by side. Okay. So at the end before he passed away I was doing almost all the custom made stuff. And Frank would work on some things. He had some customers that he would work on. But in essence he did a lot of things before I came along including a white wedding dress and leather. Wow. So he had done quite a few things by the time I come along. What was the most unique thing you ever made? I think two things. Okay. One was to make a chips, the California Highway Patrol uniform from a uniform and turn it into leather. Okay. And that was somewhat of a challenge because I couldn't tear the uniform apart to make patterns off from it. I had to do a lot of making it by sections, by spreading it out and doing a section of it. And that was probably the most fun and the most challenging thing I had done. And when it was finished it looked spectacular. Oh wow. So and then the other one was a couple from Arizona. And they both played around a bit. And I don't know if she wanted it or if he wanted it for her, I'm not quite sure. But there were, it was done in sort of a bright blue accessorized with blue rhinestones and blue end studs. And it was a hood, a bustier with a removable cups. Chaps and a bikini. And just for kicks, I made him a jockstrap by the same material. Oh wow, beautiful. And that was fun because they would fly in from Arizona just to get their fittings. Incredible. And it ended up with down the front of the hood was a paisley that was done in studs with a couple of blue rhinestones. And across the bra had the same type of stuff on it. And down one leg of the chaps had the same motif of the paisley and rhinestones and stuff on it. So that was over a three month endeavor. So it was quite spectacular by the time it was done. Wow. And so those were the two that really stand out in my mind that I did. Well, you told me that while you were doing this work you made a very concerted point of keeping your community involvement and your work separate. What was going on with that? After I was involved in mail hide for some time, I mean, before that I was a slut when I went to the bars. What can I say? I spent my time in the restroom at, what was the bar across from Touche, I mean, down from Touche's meat market. Oh yes. Yes, I would go there on a Friday or Saturday night and spend most of my time in the job. What was the playroom? Oh. So, once I started to work at mail hide, I realized that I cannot keep up this persona and also a business projection of myself in the community by being a slut. Okay. I had to kind of get things toned down a bit. So I made a complete effort to not do a whole lot in the bars where I would be in public eye. Though I talked and I groped and those kind of things but I really didn't do a lot of sexual play in the bars because I felt that I had, now I have this persona that I have to protect. Okay, yes. And so that was one of the things why I sort of did not do a lot of the overt sexual play out in the bars and out in public. Well, what did you learn though about the leather and the kink scene while you were working at mail hide? Everything. Such a... Yeah. What all these instruments were that were in the showcase for one and how to use them, which is most important. And just I learned a lot by other people talking. Okay. And when they would come into mail hide, there was all kinds of talk that you would hear. And so I learned a lot of it just by listening to people. And then after that, I could put most of that to use and be able to know how to do it. Was there anything shocking said? At first, I think probably some of the medical instruments were somewhat shocking. And the other one was probably the electrical things that were... Cause I'm really a chicken when it comes to electrical. I do not like to get shocked. Cause one of the jobs I had, I worked for Western Electric part of Bell Telephone. And a lot of that had to do with electricity and I got lots of shocks. But so I never really enjoyed the electrical devices myself. But it was always fun to make other people jump. Was there anything that was terrifying? At first, I think it could have been like fisting because I was not sure how well the body would adapt to taking someone's fist up your butt. We've gotten over that though. So, well, what can I say? Good for you. Good. I definitely had to put my experience to work, you know? Practical. Yes. Yes. Now, after about 15 to 20 years, you were with male hide, something like that. Yep. You decided to go solo. What went on with that? What went on with that? What happened there? Well, that's when male hide leathers was changed owners. And I was sold with the business. And this is one of the things that did not set well with me because I was not, no negotiation whatsoever. Not on my salary, not on anything, even though I ran at this point, the production department. Okay. And that was a little upsetting. Well, the new owners were more upsetting. And we did not see eye to eye because I don't know if you've heard much about the two, the three guys that bought it, but it was just a disaster from start to finish. And what was the other two that you were able to do? And what was the other two that you were able to do? Well, it was three that originally put in the bids to Bob to buy it. And the one. Had a falling out with the other two, which I understand. And he, they excommunicated him from the business. Well, then the, the other two, the one had grocery stores. In Indiana. And the other one was a school teacher at one time. But he thought that he could run mail hide. And he thought that selling dildos was like selling bananas. Okay. It just is not going to work. And so we had some discussion. About the things that he was doing with the business. And he was going after the. The younger crowd. Which, in my opinion, were not interested in buying leather. They were more interested in what kind of drugs they could get. And he was frequent at these bars and giving away gift certificates. Oh. So all of a sudden we had a. Big amount of these gifts are coming in. And. You know, you can't make money if you're going to give it away. Yeah. And being just changing over from, you know, hands. It just didn't work. And I tried to talk to him and there was no talk actually. And so at one of the IMLs, I worked and. The whole IML they did not take me to the. Because they had us a market at IML. They, I did not go there, which was fine. I was getting tired of going there anyway. And I could fool around that weekend. And. So then after IML was over with, and my usefulness was over with through IML, they fired me. They let me go. Okay. So that's how I went into opening my own business. And they did not think that I had much of a following. Silly them. Yes. So. Then I was able to open my own business. And all I needed to do was advertise a little bit. And I had people coming to my door. And so I started making things and doing things. And that's how my business started. But of course, then I was accused of, of taking their customers. And, you know, it's like, you gave them to me. I didn't take them. And so there was a lot of. Second hand knowledge that I would get from what they were saying to other customers. And that's how uneducated they were. Because they didn't realize that when they mouthed off that them becoming directly back to me. And, you know, I heard everything. That was going on everything that was said. But it must have been very hurtful to hear that. It was, but on the other hand, it was like. They're the ones that are being stupid. Yes. You know, if they had just shut their mouth. Things would have been a whole lot different. But with them constantly bringing up my name in their store, while people are shopping. You know, people are going to say, Oh, well, let's go check this out. Let's see what's going on here. Let's see what's going on there. And so they, they were my best advertising. Wow. Wow. So that's, I mean, that's how. But then to less than two years after that, they had to close. Yes. What were your feelings on that? I was really disappointed to see the male hide was coming to an end the way it did. Fortunately. The one guy that was in charge of male hide at that point was not one of the owners. And he, he and I worked together before. They bought out male hide. So he would give me the inside tip on a few things. Okay. So I was able to. Send somebody over with cash and buy some things. And so it was, there was a lot of things that was done under the table at that point. Here again, I mean, it was their own fault. What did you buy? Oh, I bought it at the end. I bought a lot of their supplies. I mean, their threads and, and a lot of the stuff from the sewing department. And a number of the toys, like the restraints and that kind of stuff that male hide had made. And so I was able to pick up a number of things like that. Eventually I was able to get a hold of the patterns. How did you know that? That was around about circle. Another one of my employees was going to start his own business and he found a backer. He was able to, when they were going out of business, he was able to secure again, a lot of the supplies and the patterns were one of them. Okay. And so they used them for a little bit like one IML time and they made some stuff and they had a good presentation. But, and then that sort of fell apart. Well, I knew these patterns were out there. And so I eventually contacted the person that bought them and was the backer. And so we negotiated and I got a hold of the patterns. Oh, great. So they came back to Roost. And so I was able to use the original patterns, but the patterns are really, if you don't know what's going on, you don't know because there's no instructions written down on the patterns. They're, they're out of a hard cardboard. And since I knew how to grade them and do different sizes from one piece of pattern, I could deal with that. I could take a set of measurements and make something from that. The patterns were like a template to, to move things around and make them. Okay. So they're, unless they were with somebody that knew something about pattern making, they were not too useful. Okay. And so when I had them, of course, I knew how to use them. And so I did use them. And I had been a little shop that I had the first was a, a piece of grid wall, which is the square metal material that they use displays in. I had pulleys on that had that in the ceiling and it would come down. I had all the patterns hung on that because I had very short space. Yeah. So I would bring it down and take the patterns. I needed to hoist it back up to the ceiling. So that's how I was able to store them. And then when I moved into where I was at the last part, the other half of that building that I was in, I had much more space and I had them on the back wall. Okay. And so I had them all easy access then. So what were your feelings on giving up the business when you finally did. A lot of it had to do with. First of all, I was beyond age of retirement. And I had started to draw my social security because the financial advisor said, get in on it now, because you don't know how long it's going to last. And he said, get it where you can. So I had started to do that. So I was getting the pinnets of that. And I was kind of, I had only one worker. I would use a part time worker too. But. I was getting tired. I mean, at this point I'm over 65. And I wanted to, to see about retiring. Okay. And Darryl, my other half kept saying, well, why don't you just sell the business and get. Stop retiring and get retired. So when I, I scaled down and I started selling stuff at discounted prices and, and then start selling the store fixtures and all of that. So eventually I was, I was able to, but it was, you know, a double edged sword. It was sad to see it go, but kind of happy that I, I don't have to get up every morning. Yeah. To work. And then we're, I mean there were times when I was working seven days a week. And I had a lot of hours. So it was that part of it was kind of good. In 2004. I ran for the cell block. Sheldon Chicago Leatherman contest. You were one of the sponsors. And you made the title vest that I still have. This is actually the title vest you made for me. I'll put it on here and I'll turn around so you can see the whole thing. Let me know if you can see the whole thing. Yes, I can. Yep. I remember those letters. Yeah. As you can see, I still have it. Cool. What are your thoughts on sponsorship in the community? Mail had donated a lot of the title sashes and vests. As a. Advertising. Part. And so I would do a lot of the. Stud work and the. Different leather appliques and all that kind of stuff on, on vests and the sashes. And. There for a while there was. Groups coming from all over the country to have a sash made. And so it was kind of difficult to say. Was that the time invested worthy advertising that you've got from it. But since. Male hide had a. Following from all over the world. They had. Airline personnel. That would from Europe that would fly into Chicago on their flight. They would do a layover in Chicago. They would come visit male hide leathers to get measured up or do their fittings or whatever. And then, then they would fly back out. And so we had people from all over the world. That were coming to male hide. And then they would come back in a couple of weeks. They'd have another fly in and they'd come back and pick up their garment. And so on. And then they would come back in a couple of weeks. And then they would come back in a couple of weeks. And then they would come back in a couple of weeks. Throughout the world. Yes. Of their, their leather stuff. And so that part of it was, it was really kind of fun to know that. That things you see are all over the world. Yeah. And it's fun to go to resale shops now and see their male hide tag. Well. When we prepared for this interview. You said years ago, the community was a lot more unified and it helped each other. How differently do you see it now? I think out here. The thing that I see most is because this is quite a melting pot of. People from all over. And I think I see it a lot out here that. There's a lot of people that. Don't care what the other person is. Haven't done or doing or things that are going through. Though I hope one thing that comes out of this, this horrible epidemic is that that sort of pulls people back together a little bit and helps other people. But I think everyone there for a while was sort of going their own separate ways and not. Caring about other people. And that when I first came out, I mean. It was like everyone, whether you were in leather or in drag. And that's a wide section between those two. Sort of helped each other. I mean, I can remember going to the Gold Coast. And then going to the baton and watching a show. You know, and we were just all excited. For everyone. And I think that the things really, and then it got so segmented that the drag queens didn't like the gay, the leather guys and the leather guys didn't like the drag queens. And I mean, it almost was a few between the two. I mean, it just was, was too. Too bad. That that was happening. But I think, and I'm hoping that this is sort of brought things together a little bit more. I don't know if it's any good whatsoever to happen. I hope that's one of them. I hope so too. Yes. What are your fondest memories of the leather scene in Chicago in your tenure? I mean, I love to talk to people. I love people too. When I had the store come into the store. And they all hide. And I love to be able to share things with them and then share things with them. And they're very interesting to me. And I sort of even like the, the bit of somebody. Telling me about their kinks and their expert. Things that they had done. It's, it's very interesting to me. Yeah. To have somebody be able to open up to me and tell me. All these little things. Have you any regrets. About your time. Yeah, that I didn't start earlier. Yeah. I, I do have a few that. That I hadn't really got into helping the community a little more than what I did. You know, there, there's so much out there like the AIDS funding. I was on the fringes of that. There's so much more I could have done. And that kind of stuff. Done. Other than that, I think. My walk through life has been very interesting. I tripped and fell and got up and started all over again. What's the biggest misconception about you? Well, I had one friend that told me that before he actually met me that he thought I was the pompous ass. And I said, Oh, you must be mistaken. That couldn't have been me. After he said that, that was one of the things that I sort of, you know, analyzed a little bit and looked at myself and said, you know, is that true? And yeah, it was. It is. Well, Sheldon, I would like to thank you for an amazing interview of this. I've learned so much sitting with you here today. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I've enjoyed sharing. I'm glad you did because this is information that I know people will love to hear.