 Good afternoon and welcome to St. Joseph's University. Welcome, Governor Wolfe, and welcome to the elected officials present for this event today. State Representative Morgan Cephas, State Representative Pam DeLisio, State Representative Mary Jo Daley, and Philadelphia City Councilman Curtis Jones. Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here. For those of you who do not know me, my name is Mark Reed, and I have the pleasure of serving as the 28th President of St. Joseph's University. And as president, one of the privileges are perks of the job. And as the governor can probably attest, sometimes the perks are relatively few and far between in these jobs. But one of the real perks and real pleasures is getting to welcome people like Governor Wolfe as well as our distinguished panel and guests here today. It truly is a pleasure to have you here and thank you for choosing us as the location to have this important discussion here today. I'm sure there are some guests in the audience who have never visited our campus before, so I would like to extend a warm welcome to all of you as well. It's a wonderful opportunity for everyone here to learn more about the redistricting of congressional districts throughout our Commonwealth. And I'm particularly happy that there are at St. Joseph's University students present for this discussion. And I looked around the room as I came in and I see many of our students here. And I'm excited about that. The governor and I were just talking briefly beforehand. And you, in many respects, some of you have voted already. Some of you will vote in your first major elections coming up. It's important that you're here. It's important that you get educated about the issues and participate as an engaged citizen of our Commonwealth and of our country. So thank you again, Governor Wolfe, for choosing St. Joseph's University. And now I would like to turn things over to the moderator for today's discussion, Nadia Rostin, Southeast Regional Director for the governor. Thank you very much. Hello, how is everybody doing today? All right, so we're here to pretty much get your feedback and your comments around the issue of gerrymandering. We want to start off first so that we can get as many comments as possible, just with brief introductions from our panel. Of course, starting with the governor. I mean, because he's the governor, we have to let him speak first, right? And then we will go to Joe Powers, Carol Cunningholm, Jasmine Sessoms, Micah Simms, and then Jonathan Marks. Governor? Thank you, Nadia. And I just want to thank everybody here at St. Joseph's president, Reed, students, faculty, staff, everybody for hosting us today. Everything that I've heard from Nadia, from everybody, you have made us feel very welcome here. And I want to thank the panelists for participating in this. As Nadia said, we're not here to answer any questions. I'm actually, and I think all of us are here to listen. I have responsibility with the state Supreme Court ruling to be the arbiter in a decision as to what a fair map looks like going forward. And I think that's really important in Pennsylvania. And I've been a politician now for three years. We have to do things to get to a good place with public policies. That's only part of our job. The second part of our job is to be stewards of a grand democratic tradition. And we're not doing our job if we're just doing one of those things. And I think for so too long, people in politics have not regarded that second responsibility as important. And therefore, for so many people, including probably many of you in this room, there's a deep cynicism about the democratic system that really is not a spectator sport. It's something that really demands participation. And anything that makes people shy away from participating is just a bad thing. I don't care if you're a Republican or a Democrat, a liberal conservative, we've got to start with a fair system. And I think this is our chance to start that taking back our democracy with a fair system. And I look forward to your comments and I look forward to this whole process. Thanks. Hi, my name is Joe Powers. I'm an adjunct professor of political science here at St. Joseph's University. I teach several classes, including state and local government, Pennsylvania politics, and currently campaigns and elections. And right now we are discussing redistricting in class. Prior to coming here, I spent about 37 years in state government, including a tour of duty in the Senate, tour of duty in the house. And during that time, I got to watch the evolution of the redistricting process, going back over the last four cycles. And so it's something that's a very considerable interest to me and we'll enjoy the conversation today. I'm Carol Cunningholm, chair of Fair Districts PA, a coalition of organizations and citizens from all parties, all parts of the state who believe gerrymandering undermines our democracy and threatens the integrity of our elections. We believe the ultimate solution is an independent citizens commission with strong safeguards for transparency and public input. We've been gaining support for a constitutional amendment that would put such a commission in place. At present House Bill 722 has 102 cosponsors, the most of any bill introduced in this session. Senate Bill 22 has 16 cosponsors. Both of them are stuck in committee while we continue to ask that they be given hearings. Since January 2016, we have held over 350 public meetings attended by almost 18,000 people. As a full-time volunteer, I've traveled across the state to speak about the harm done to our communities and our economy by distorted maps and backroom maneuvers. Everywhere I go, I am met by citizens concerned about our state, concerned about the toxic political climate and determined to do what they can to bring gerrymandering to an end. And I'm pleased to see many of those citizens are here in the room today. If you look around, you can see the Fair Districts PA T-shirts. We have more than 4,000 volunteers on our volunteer email list, people who are speaking, petitioning, advocating, lobbying, doing everything that they can think of incredibly creative people working to reclaim our democracy from gerrymandering. We want to see our towns, cities, counties and communities represented fairly, not cracked into pieces and left without a voice. We want to see an end to the current conflict of interest that undermines our constitutional right to free and equal elections. We welcome and hope for and wait for an interim solution, a congressional district map that ensures real choice and the possibility that our votes really count. And Governor Wolf, we thank you for retaining the help of nonpartisan experts to ensure a transparent process and genuinely fair map. We thank you for taking time to hear from voters and we ask our legislative leaders to do the same. Thank you. Carol puts me to shame. Hi everyone, my name is Jasmine Sessoms and I am the founder and CEO of an organization called She Can Win. And our mission, we're completely nonpartisan, but we train women to run for office. When you think about gerrymandering, you think that it is an uneven playing field. And some of that comes from the lack of women represented in our government. We truly advocate for all women across both sides of the aisle to get into office because when you have a fair representation, it makes for a better working government. So I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's comments and thoughts about the topic. Good afternoon, my name is Micah Sims. I am the executive director of Common Cause Pennsylvania. Common Cause is a nonpartisan, a good government organization that has been in existence since 1974. For the last two decades, Common Cause along with other good government groups has been at the forefront of making sure that we find a way to end gerrymandering. We are part of, as Carol has indicated, the Fair Districts Coalition and really believe in both House Bill 722 and Senate Bill 22 and the act of an independent redistricting commission. It is important that we understand one thing is that if you don't bring values and talk about the values, the process will remain broken. And as we talk about gerrymandering, we oftentimes hear incumbency protection and things of that nature. But when we really go to the values of fairness, competitiveness and racial equality, then we can develop a process that will help democracy in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I have a line that says, if you show up for democracy, democracy will show up for you. And obviously by your presence here today, we know that democracy is beginning to show up in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Good afternoon, everyone. My name's Jonathan Marks. I'm the commissioner of the Bureau of Commissions, Elections and Legislation at the Pennsylvania Department of State. And our role, our function in all of this is really one of being a resource. We, being the agency that oversees the statewide voter registration database and also collects maps of precinct boundaries from county election offices. We're kind of, I guess the term I would use is middleman and we try to promote transparency so that not only the general assembly, the legislature has access to the information but also voters and anyone else who is interested. So, and this conversation is very fascinating to me. I've been an election administrator for longer than I care to admit at this point and I enjoy it very much. So thank you all for being here, great crowd. All right, so now we will open the floor up for comments and feedback. We will have Brenda here. Brenda, can you raise your hand so everyone can see you? She has her microphone. So when you're selected, I would just ask because there's only one of her. If you could just kind of meet her to your closest end of aisle and then we will get to your comment. So who would like to start? I see a hand right here in the middle. Thank you. I didn't mean to be first I had one question I'm getting to ask it. We can't get these bills out of committee. I know one name is Metcalf. I don't know what the other name is. What do we as private citizens do to have the power to get the bills out of committee? So, I promised everybody up here that I have a big mouth but I wouldn't just take over this thing but maybe I could start. Sorry. This came up yesterday in state college and actually Aristotle, what a way to start. I got you, I got you, right? Aristotle talked about civic virtue as having a measure of shame involved. You have to be, have a sense of shame. And somebody yesterday suggested, can I just call up the chair of each of these committees and I think it's Metcalf and Fulmer is there, right? In the Senate. And shame them and say, come on, this is about our democracy. I don't care what your political values are or what your partisan identification is. We're talking about trying to make our democracy healthier here and it really gets to the heart of what Aristotle was talking about. That it starts with a sense that we actually care what other people think. We have that sense of shame. So, the person yesterday was suggesting maybe I can just call him up and start shaming them. That's what democracy actually is. That's part of what it is is to say we shouldn't be doing this. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for creating maps like this. So let's start with that. The other thing I'd say is in a democracy, the governor, I was elected governor, not dictator. So I don't have the ability to actually go and release bills from committees. That's the leadership of each of those chambers. And so it wouldn't be a bad idea to maybe petition them and say, listen, get this out to the floor for a vote. I think it has wide support. I don't know what you think, but I think those bills probably have good support. And they certainly are worthy of a good, healthy public debate. But the answer really lies in getting the people directly in charge, the committee chairs, and the leaders of each of the chambers to get those things out. Well, Mike Terzai is the speaker of the house and Joe Scarnati is the president pro-temporary of the Senate. Okay, and not that your questions are not wanted, but we really want to try to make this more of a listening session than a Q&A to really try to get your comments and feedback so the governor can take that information back to the legislature. So does anyone have a comment? All right, we have a gentleman right there. Hi, I'm Bill McDevitt. I'm on the faculty here at St. Joe's. The Constitution gives us the right to vote. And the Supreme Court of the United States declared that that right to vote is not just an ordinary right, it's a fundamental right. And the right to vote includes the right that our votes count. And our votes do not count when maps are drawn in such a way to assure that one party or another party is going to prevail in an election. So my comment is very brief that the right to vote includes the right that your vote count. And in the current situation, my vote, I'm in that district where me and is, does not count. Thank you. Thank you for that comment. And let me just say, I'm on the board of the State League of Women Voters as well as being chair of Fair to Six PA. And that's precisely why the league brought the current lawsuit. The league and Common Cause and other groups have petitioned our legislature repeatedly over the past 25 years to take our right to free and equal elections seriously. And that has not happened, which is why the league filed the lawsuit. We are really pleased that the State Supreme Court agreed that we have a fundamental right to have our votes count and that when gerrymandering makes the votes not count, then it's unconstitutional. We're waiting to see what the federal court does. We're very hopeful that the federal court will say this is a state state's issue and that the state constitution guarantees us free and equal elections. We're hopeful for that. And we're excited that the governor is taking seriously his role in furthering the maps, but we agree with you completely. And that's precisely what this entire question is about. Is it, do we have the right to have our votes count? And how do we help our legislature to see that what they've done has deprived us of that right? Okay, and I did see a hand right here in the front row. Can I add one thing to that as a political scientist? The constitution, actually the founders actually went with a decennial census in big part because they wanted to make sure, at least from a numerical point of view, votes did count because they were upset with the Rotten borough system in Great Britain in the 18th century and earlier where boroughs with very little population actually had more votes than big cities because they hadn't had a census for many years. So at the heart of our constitution is the idea that our maps have to reflect reality. They were talking about numerical reality, but I think this also means that it reflects the reality of our society. Meg Shekatoff, I've been involved with fair districts for a while. It's my understanding that there are a lot of computer models that do make fair districts so that you wouldn't have to have the legislature battle it out. First of all, it's hard to follow somebody who graduated from MIT and quotes Aristotle, but we'll do our best here. The first time I watched the redistricting process, the people who did it, their tools were pencils, yellow legal tablets, pocket calculators and voter registration. What has changed over the 40 years are all the software programs that are now out there using GIS systems. We tend to think that this is something that has been going on since 1812 when Governor Elbridge Gerry signed the first gerrymandering act, but it has really evolved to a point where there are more specific districts or there's more opportunity to draw districts or gerrymandered than has ever existed before in our democracy. And there are maps. It is not all that difficult to do maps. Anybody with a software program could do it very quickly and virtually everyone that we could do would be better than the ones that we have right now in Pennsylvania, so you're absolutely correct. There are programs and they can be used and they should be used. Let me just add to that though. Somebody has to decide. Somebody has to decide. So what are the parameters? So right now the maps that we have were drawn by computer and what became incredibly clear in the lawsuits that have played out recently is that the top priority, well the very top priority was never mentioned in court which was to give the top advantage to one party but the second top priority was discussed very freely and unapologetically which was to protect incumbents and to make sure incumbents had districts that kept them in office. There was no apology about that and then there are the other parameters. So it's really important that the people who are determining what the computers do have the best interest of voters at heart rather than the best interest of politicians which is why we're asking for an independent commission. It will still be done by computer, it will always be done by computer unless we get some other invention we haven't thought of but there need to be people overseeing the process and those people should not have the conflict of interest of wanting to keep themselves and their friends in office. It's an excellent point and I think it circles us back to the earlier discussion about what are the values, what are the criteria and who decides? You know the software can be used for both good and evil. It's that easy to use. So I think it's important for all of you, for all of us to articulate what values we want in congressional redistricting and legislative redistricting as well. One more time, there are computers, I have hired a map maker, I've hired a mathematician but none of them make any claim that this is purely a mechanical process. In the end, I think Carol's right that we make decisions to try to make the map as fair as possible. So far no one has figured out a way to do that completely mechanically. I think computers have been used, misused to create gerrymandered maps and I think computers should be used in mathematical algorithms to create fair maps but in the end, there is some subjectivity in this decision and which is why we human beings ultimately have to be the final arbiter of what we think fair is. And can I just say one more thing? The comment that I would love to hear is what matters to you when a map is drawn? Is it that Montgomery County be restored to having its own Congress representative? Congressional representative? I can't say congressman because I'd love to see it be a congresswoman. Sometimes, someday, could we do that? So what matters? Or in Philly, what matters? The Philly District, one kind of has wandered out of Philly and actually comes up to Swarthmore to ensure something for somebody. What matters to you when the districts are drawn in and around this region? That would be a comment that I think would be incredibly helpful for this panel. To add back to that value again is to make sure that we have a value of racial equity in this conversation. I think oftentimes we miss that point when we're talking about maps. One of the points that wasn't done in Pennsylvania, there wasn't a racial gerrymandering case but in other states like North Carolina and in Wisconsin and other states, there were racial gerrymandering. They were compacting people of color so that they would not spread out to any other congressional district. It's important that we have that conversation, gender, racial equality. And we also have to remember when we talk about our values to also remember there are people that live in other parts of this state. That's why I commend the governor for going across the state because sometimes our values and interests may differ but I do believe at the core essence of every citizen of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania should be fairness, should be a sense of competitiveness, should be a sense of I want to be able to have my vote count when I cast it. And I wanna be able to not have to drive five hours to see my congressman. So I see a hand back there from a student and then we're gonna come down to the councilman here in the front. Hi everybody, my name is Megan Lyman. I'm a junior political science major here at St. Joseph's and I'm from Doylestown, Pennsylvania originally. So my comment is I actually on behalf of St. Joseph's I attended a conference this past summer on women in Pennsylvania state politics and one of the most disheartening facts that I learned is that only 18.6% of our state legislature are represented by women. So my comment is that when we're considering this conversation on redistricting, how can we do it in a way that we can empower more women to participate in our state legislature and have them equally represented because I personally feel and a lot of my fellow colleagues, female colleagues in this room feel that our Commonwealth will be better off if we are more equally represented. What's your name? What's your name again? I'm sorry. Megan. Hey Megan, I'm Jasmine. That's exactly why we exist as she can win because there is a direct correlation for gender parity to gerrymandering in terms of not enough women are at the table. The maps are being drawn, the decisions are made and then it trickles down. When we start electing more women across the aisle that is when we get a fair and equal representation in the government and furthermore and when we start electing women of color because 18.6 is 2% women of color. Okay, if there are 535 seats in Congress, 138 of them belong to women, 36 of them belong to women of color. We have to get parity and that is something that she can win, emerge, represent. We are all committed to getting to parity by 2020. And it is an uphill battle and we need each and every one of you in here pushing the message along with us. I think the term that is often being used nowadays is a reflective democracy. We need it to reflect the constituents of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, gender, race, et cetera. So here at Common Cause we've been about that. We're gonna continue to make sure we are pushing in every way, shape, and form. Even when you get down and I know there's been the glamors around the congressional maps but in a minute we're gonna have to begin to really look at our state senate and state legislative districts as well to see how they have been impacted by a possible gerrymander. So the best thing and thank you governor, the best thing we can do is to come up with the right process based on the right values and give it to an independent commission. So we don't have to deal with the back room politics, the gender inequities that happen, the racial inequities that happen but actually feel like it's being done the right way. Let me just add to, Megan, what you said and I think I'm right, Pennsylvania is 49th in terms of the percentage of women in our legislature. That's pathetic. I think we're only ahead of Mississippi. Yes. Apologies anybody here from Mississippi. But that's not right and it's one just yet another reflection of how unfair our system is and why people could legitimately say I'm not sure I wanna even get involved if that's what it looks like. So we've gotta change this. Jasmine mentioned the correlation between gerrymandering and gender parity and if the maps are being drawn to give assigned districts to colleagues or friends that are selected by those who are in power to draw the maps, those people will be like them and that's what we've seen across the state. There are some courageous women, there are some courageous people of color who have managed to break their way in but they have to fight incredibly hard to get there or some strange upheaval that opens a district in an unexpected way. Those are the only way that people are able to enter what is currently a closed door because of gerrymandering. If it goes to an independent commission that reflects the population of the state and the districts are drawn in a fair way that opens the door to a genuinely reflective democracy and that's what we'd like to see. Oh, good afternoon everyone. I'm representing the enlightened males today. And as a person who has nine grandchildren who happen to be female, I'm for gender equality. But I wanna shift a little bit and when we start talking about these maps and where these lines fall, one of the things that matters to me is understanding that we have a shared value with folk in the house, the Senate and the Congress so we can get stuff done. And there's another word that you insert in the middle but get stuff done. And why that is important is because you can have conflict. I represent an eclectic district. Goes all the way up to Swarthmore, that's my boundary. And I've learned how to be a environmentally sensitive council person, had to learn about the spotted owls and the horned toads that once a year traverse, right? Across the road that we guard them. But also I represent some of the poorest areas in the city of Philadelphia from Market Street to Main Street. But what is important to me is as my state delegation shares a map with me and my colleague over here represents another part of my district that we work together in a common purpose for the folk that we represent. D'Alessio works really hard. I work with her, I listen to her but no line can keep you safe. The price you pay as an elected official for the space you occupy is service. So when we went through redrawing our district, I had five divisions in North Philly. I'm a West Philly kind of guy but I had to learn North Philly values very quickly. But if you get out and work, that's your security. It's not drawing a good old guy's lines that protect you, working with people do. So I hope in our evolution as we draw lines that we pick people that don't mind talking to people and working for people. If we do that, they can represent whatever constituency and I'm looking forward to the new lines. So it does trickle down to the city council. And one provision that we have is if we don't draw those lines at a certain fiscal cliff, we don't get paid. So those lines get drawn. In the essence of time, I would ask that maybe only one or two panelists respond so we can get to maybe one or two more comments from the audience. Thank you. One of the worst results of gerrymandering is the dysfunction that it's caused both in Congress and in the state capitals because the way these districts are drawn, they are drawn to enhance political partisanship. And if you look around this map, for example, I live in Dauphin County. Harrisburg is carved out away from the rest of Dauphin County. Reading is carved out from the rest of Berks County. You go on Coatesville is carved out from the rest of Chester County. So we end up not only with very few contested races, we even end up with very few races where there are even candidates. We had 228 races in Pennsylvania last year for open seats or seats. And of those, 98 had nobody running in the general election against the whoever was the leading candidate. The result of that is that we have candidates who really focus on the primary and really focus on the people in the extremes in their party in order to win those primaries and do not focus on the people in the middle that determine the general elections. And as a result, and you've seen it in Harrisburg, there are so many people that really do not want to have any kind of compromise. They really want to instead carry out the agenda of the people in the extremes in their party. And I think one of the best things that can happen if we do have better districts is that the ability of the House of Representatives and the Senate in Harrisburg and Congress would really dramatically improve. We're gonna take a comment from the gentleman today. This is a question actually for anybody on the panel. It's my impression that at least 90% of the people in this room have been already sold in there against gerrymandering. And the block is getting those two chairs, one in the House and one in the Senate, Metcalf and the other guy, I forget his name. Have any of you guys spoken to these two chairs and what kind of response did you get from them? Do they know what the material, what the contents of those two bills are? Do they have any understanding of what the bills are trying to, the checks and balances that those bills provide? Do they understand that? And what's their attitude about it? Thank you. I have spoken with Senator Fulmer several times. He actually is very open to the idea of redistricting reform. He believes it needs to happen. There seem to be some political challenges with the leadership within the Senate that we're hoping to find a way to move through. But he certainly has read the bill in great detail, has a lot of thoughts about specifics within the bill and is interested in seeing this process move forward. In the House, it's a very different dynamic. The chair of that committee has made it incredibly clear that he does not intend at any point to read the bill, to think about the bill, to entertain conversation about the bill. Doesn't matter that 102 of his colleagues have co-sponsored the bill or that people within his committee have requested that he hold a hearing. It doesn't matter that he has a constituent who has showed up at his office at least 15 times now, personally asking for a meeting to discuss it. He refuses to even respond. So to me, that's the place where shame is very appropriate. I have personally gone into his office numerous times to ask to speak with him. I've emailed him. There is no response from him to anybody, including his colleagues. To me, that's unconscionable. And anybody who allows that to continue, I would say either has no leadership ability at all or doesn't understand what democracy looks like. So we'll take this last question and I mean Clement from this young lady right here and then we'll close it out with the governor. Hi governor and hello to the rest of the panel. Thank you for coming to St. Joe's today. My name's Ann Marie Maloney. I'm a senior and I'm a political science major at St. Joe's. I'm also a Pennsylvania and lifelong for Pennsylvania. I live in Montgomery County in Bluebell and in the 13th district. And although my family is split by partisanship where my parents tend to be more Republican and me and my siblings tend to be more Democratic, we both agree that just like after this process happens, what really needs to be done is that we need to have an independent commission to draw the district lines. Because although my family is very happy with the representation both in state government and in Congress, I don't think most of the state of Pennsylvania's that help, that happy with their representation in government. So yeah, in the future after this process happens, we definitely need to pursue an independent commission forcefully. But I'd also like to say that during this process, a lot of people have been talking about the competing values of gerrymandering and of redistricting and of what serves citizens and constituents the best. I find that a lot of the districts around here are at least fairly competitive. I don't think it's serving our area very well. I don't think my county is being represented very fairly in Congress or in state government. And so I would ask that the districts be drawn so that they're more representative of the wishes of the, and the interest of the citizens in those districts. Thank you again. I think first of all Ann Marie, I applaud you for being a political science major. I think that's amazing, very good. And you're right. And I think the point that you're making is that this is a whole different dimension than the normal daily give and take of politics where we ought to argue with each other and debate and do all the good things that a free and open democracy should do. The problem is we can't really get to that if people feel so sheltered and so costed by the system that they can do what Carol said, the chair of that committee in the house is doing, which is basically just to shut off debate to the point where he's not even reading the bill. That's not the way a democracy is supposed to work. And if it does work that way, then it doesn't matter what disagreements you have that's not the form you're gonna wanna have that debate, that argument, and it's not gonna help anybody. It's certainly not gonna help our democracy. So you're right, we need to move into a new world. And this should be something that both Republicans and Democrats should embrace because it's gonna make our jobs a lot more fulfilling and a lot better. Anything else? Anything else? All right, well this concludes our program. I would ask that everyone just remain seated just so we can get the panelists out into the hallway. And then if you have still some comments that you would like to share with them, they will be out there. Thank you.