 Okay, I think it's time. Maybe we can start now. We have different participants connected at this moment. Okay. Let me introduce myself. My name is Joseph Duarte. I'm in Barcelona at the Open University of UK. And now I'm moderating this session as an executive committee member of Eden. And I will be the chair of this webinar. As you know, this webinar is hosted by Eden Special Interest Group on Technology and Agile Learning and Quality Enhancement. And now the topic of this webinar will be also a new global challenge for quality development in Open and online learning. And we will have with us the speaker, it's Daniel Ellers, who will speak in a few minutes. The way that we will organize this webinar is in different moments. Now it is welcome and introduction, and now I'll give the floor to Eva in order to introduce also Eden Special Interest Group. And later our speaker will start with the presentation. That will be around 30 minutes. And after that we can have a period, probably 30 minutes more, to ask questions and to debate about the topic of the session, the today's session. Okay, I think that it's everything at the moment just to start. Maybe Eva, if you can, if you will start with the presentation of the Eden Special Interest Group, floor is yours. Thank you very much, Joseph, for the kind introduction for this webinar. Yes, I will start. I'm Appostian Elson, and I'm also in the Eden EC Secretary of Committee, and I'm also representing the Swedish Association for Distant Education, based in Sweden. And I'm also the coordinator for this new launched Eden Special Interest Group on Technology and Able Learning and Quality Enhancement. Just a practical thing as well before we get started is that this session will be recorded. And the link will be sent to you who have participated. And it will also be announced at the Eden webpage. I think what I can see from the participants, I think you are all familiar with Eden, but I will just say something shortly about what Eden is, and why we are interested to contribute to quality-enabled learning and quality enhancement. And today we have a really, really challenging topic, I will say, because there are so many changes which we have to face in all educational sectors, which we will discuss today. So we have already introduced the speakers for this webinar. So shortly about Eden. Eden is the European Distance and E-Learning Network. I'm sure you all are familiar with it. It has been for some 25 years old, five years ago, it was launched, together with actually many of the other organizations like UConn and EAD2U. And at that time it was really a large need for this kind of organization, dealing with e-learning, distance learning. So Eden is to share knowledge and improve understanding amongst professionals in distance and e-learning and to promote policy and practice across the whole of Europe and beyond. So we work both with our members, to our members, but also at policy level with the European Commission, for example, and with other organizations. We have some 200 institutional members and some 1,200 people are involved in our network of academics or professionals, the NAP, and I see that we have Alfredo Lange, who is in the board of Eden NAP. For those who don't know what Eden NAP is, we have a special webpage on Eden. It is for a community, and we have let this community be free, although we are not a member in Eden if you would like to take part and to be in our community. We organize the conferences, first year large annual conferences, but also the research workshops and we have open classrooms and we are involved in projects, research and publications. And we have our own journal, Euroval, and maybe some of you have already published something and contributed, either with some research or maybe you are a reviewer. Thank you very much for that. So we have discussed for a while about to do something special about technology-enabled learning and quality enhancement with Eden. Of course, it is really important and it is really urgent to review the quality agenda with all the challenges which we will hear more about from our presenter, Ulf Daniela. There needs to be a change, also looking at quality and how we are dealing with that. So we launched actually this big in a Daniel conference in June in Sweden for Daniel conference and then we did that with four workshops for each of the days during the conference with those themes which are presented here about the rationale and action plan, about reviewing the quality agenda, about quality and talent micro-method and micro-level and identifying the stakeholders and innovation of quality and leadership. And for two of the sessions where Ulf Daniela is also involved. The second one and for the fourth one. We are a core group, mainly from the Eden Eastie. It is myself who is coordinating it. It is Sandra Krugina-Soxi, who is the Vice President of Eden. It is half-naked first for Lofi University in USA. It is a follow-up issue to the president. It is Antonina LaPosha from Eden-NAS and the former president for Eden, Antonia Tecera and Antonina Lenos as an expert. And we have some newcomers as well. For example, Jakke Komis is coming in and also some others. But to be in the core group, you need to be an Eden member, but we are launching this to be a community for everyone who has an interest in the area. So please feel free to be welcome. What are we doing? For this person, we have an action plan because we would like to do a lot of things, but we have to start in a rather small scale. So we started to have webinars and also Eden Tweetshats. So this is one of the second webinars today. And some weeks ago we had another one and that was about Quality Intel and Micro-Level. And the recording from that is available at the Eden webpage. We are also doing Tweetshats. So next week, we are hosting one and that is also facilitated by Daniel Ellos about actually the same topic today. But I think it will be in a more different way. It is maybe more interactive with the Tweetshats. And those Tweetshats are historical, so they are also available afterwards. So please feel free to be welcome next week as well. We have chosen the concept of technology-enabled learning because that covers both distance learning, e-learning, blended learning, mobile learning, online learning, all the names which are used to be on the agenda. We have chosen the broad concept, technology-enabled learning. We are also choosing the concept of enabling instead of enhancing because the hard thing is what is better, what is not so good, it is more a question of this kind of thing, but enabling is to empower to make things possible and to make possible for learning, for learners and for the students to whatever kind of ways they are learning to and by technology or digitization. This is also the definitions by the Commonwealth of Learning, the report by Kate Gordon-Fries. We are also talking about technology-enabled learning and quality enhancement both on micro-level, master-level and macro-level. And that is important to sometimes distinguish between those. But it is also important to see all levels as an entity because quality is not so stronger than the weakest link. So if there are gaps in between those different kind of levels, there will be gaps in quality. That was really discussed in the last webinar. So if you are interested in more insight about that, you can go back to the recording. But in the end of the day, quality is there. So what is in it for me? What is in it for me as a learner? That is the point. I would also share with you some of the reports which are recently published in the topic. The one by Duval Adal has done an enhanced learning. The one I have already mentioned about Kate Gordon-Fries for Commonwealth of Learning. So that was very, very brief introduction for what this special interest group on talent and quality enhancement is about. We have at the Eden webpage, we have a special section for this thing. You are more than welcome to have a look there and you are more than welcome to be part of our community and to have a contact with all of us. So thank you very much. Thank you very much Eva for this map and even special interest group introduction. And now it's time for Daniel Ellers, our speaker today about the topic is new global challenges for quality development in open online learning. Please, Daniel, pull Daniel, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, Joseph. And greetings to everybody from my side here as well. We are a small group, so feel free to ask questions in between. When they arise, don't wait too long. Don't be shy. My topic is quality in open online learning and I have chosen not to take a very narrow focus but to enlarge the focus for today's presentation and to also have a look a little bit what's going on actually in higher education because what's going on in higher education is actually determining what we have to take into account when talking about quality and when shaping the agenda of the steps which we need to take to meet the challenges. So I approached the topic from a rather broad view today and still I hope that the initiatives which I have put in my presentation, European initiatives and some tools might be of interest for those who are more interested in the details and the criteria and the regulations and processes. So first of all, I think when we look at higher education like a game of chess and I believe that everybody probably knows how to play chess or has played chess once in their lives then we all know that the rules are actually very, very clear. You know what you are able to do with the different players with the different little figures. You know where to go, you know what to do and you know that of course there is strategic thinking possible and also very, very important but you know the game. And I always like to think about digital technology coming in and we are always talking or using the term disrupting higher education and I always like to think about it in a way that what is happening there is that suddenly our playground is enlarged. It's not eight by eight fields anymore but it's becoming larger and larger. The figures can go different ways, can jump further and there are no boundaries anymore. And the question is what do we do? Imagine you are a leader in a higher education institution, higher education institution manager or rector or president then you probably would like to know what is the movements I can do and suddenly you see yourself in a situation where the rules are changing and you are in a situation where you have to lie by night a little bit without exactly knowing and seeing what is my room and my option which I have. This is what leaders of higher education tell us. We have started to work with presidents and vice presidents since one and a half years in different contexts and they all are having different stories to tell but the stories they are all coming to this point that they say we have no idea what in five years time our universities will look like but we are still in a situation in which our colleagues want to know this from us and that's a difficulty. So there's a need for orientation. And if you think about this the question what the future actually will bring and how it's going to look like and if we are on the right tracks and if the tracks are still able to carry the tanker, the organization of the university that is the big question and that is more and more becoming a question actually and there are no simple answers to that. Just a small picture which shows where we are moving at. Higher education is changing and the changes are coming from at least two big factors. One factor is the global move to learning societies if you look at the OECD statistics of higher education participation of young people of the young age cohorts you will find that the participation in higher education is becoming larger and larger. That is that we are not actually only moving towards learning societies where education and learning and certification of education and learning becomes an important means for differentiation and mobility within a society which determines the position you can take but also within this movement of becoming a learning society the academic part, the higher education portion is actually becoming more and more important and with that also the risks of individuals in society they are changing whereas education before used to be an option which everybody desired to have in the future and today already it is becoming more and more an obligation which you cannot avoid to have and so it is in a way a spiral which is reinforcing this movement towards a learning society and on the other side there is of course the big movement of digitalization which changes first of all all moments and methods and modes which we have to deliver content between teachers and learners between institutions and learners but it changes also much more and this is I think the bigger picture which we can see where we see that higher education is under pressure of at least these two big mega trends which leads on the one hand side to an enlargement of individualized academic education where standard offers in the future will not be enough anymore it leads to a new challenge for universities because a much more diverse target group is coming into the academic education and it leads also to a need for more lifelong learning offers of higher education institutions because in an age in which individuals will have 10 to 15 jobs between the end of their job training and the beginning of their retirement they all need constant training and so academic institutions have to ask themselves how can we provide not just the initial academic bachelor and master degree but how can we provide the same intensity throughout the whole lifetime and globally speaking there are no structures yet developed which enable individuals in our modern societies to be provided with academic training in that way and that quantity and that intensity which is needed alongside with this digital mega trend there are lots of questions which the stakeholders around the students the teachers the management is asking some of them are will the digital trend be a technical one or an educational one will it be a technical revolution or an educational revolution and some of the stakeholders are fearing that there is an automatic change just through the technology coming which cannot be shaped anymore in a way that they believe it would be good so the question is really how can we shape the future and not just the overwhelming the question is of course for our closed institutions how can we deal with openness when students come in and say we have learned something from other institutions online courses and we would like to bring it here into our own higher education program how do we deal with this openness how do we deal with the fact that there is more and more digital import into curricula from other institutions or other programs and also that we have the possibility of digital export from our institution to other institutions how to create a suitable blend of institutional formats is a question which we are now have started just this week to kick off a new project a European initiative which is looking exactly into these kind of patterns that students in the future will start in university one and then they might move to another university and to a third university to get their academic programs their education and then the question is how can we track their learning how can we combine their learning that from these individual experiences we can create one larger certification one larger academic qualification and how to achieve permeability that is a big issue on the European scene we have just issued a policy paper I am also involved into the European Association for Institutes of Higher Education which is one of the big or E institutions which have authored the European Standards and Guidelines and in this institution it is one of our key concerns to work for permeability students from the qualification framework level 3, 4, 5 can enter into higher education as well into master level education as well and that there are no silos and no boundaries or at least that they can be overcome so these are some of the questions which arise from the overall bigger picture and how difficult it is today in educational institutions in general but specifically in higher education institutions to determine what future needs of students and graduates are you can see from this thought experiment which we did if you think about the school beginner in September 2016 which by the way was actually my own story because I had a small son who was entering school in September 2016 he is now in second grade and he probably will finish primary school by 2020 then he will graduate from high school in 2028 and he will receive a special degree in 2031 and his master degree in 2033 if he chooses to study and then he might start to work or not or continue in the university like his father nobody knows so think about this timeline now and think about what has happened in the last 10, 15 years and we are looking here at a time frame from today 2017, 2018 to 2030, 2033 is it actually possible to determine what the future will bring which jobs will be there actually in which time frames will qualifications need to be updated in 2033 and so actually what is important today in universities is not so much to deliver to students knowledge but what is really important is to deliver to students the ability to deal with new situations with unknown situations with uncertain situations that's the new currency of higher education and now probably all of you are somehow involved in a higher education institution think about it think about your own institution your own experience think about what you have in front of you and how well we prepare or not our students to deal with this uncertainty for many institutions I can say and many colleagues which I discuss this topic with we are still living often in the illusion that what we do when we transfer knowledge is preparing students for the future but I firmly believe that's a mistake so my agenda for quality challenges in higher education is comprising five points which I want to make the first one is the point how can we deal with innovation and employability in a situation where we do not know what the future brings the second point is how can we deal with access and inclusion the third point how to deal in a high quality way with individualization and diversity the fifth is the challenge of flexibilization and the fifth sorry is the challenge of digitalization so you can see here that digitalization plays a role and is probably underlying many other points as well but it's just one factor out of many I would like to talk a little bit about the challenge of innovation and employability in our universities we are often teaching content and I already mentioned that in the future it will less and less be possible to prepare students for situations by teaching them the knowledge they will need because the situations will be so diverse so quickly changing and so individual that is as barely impossible to teach them everything they need to know for their job lives what we need to focus on and that's not a contradiction with teaching knowledge and what we need to focus on is we need to focus on more on what we call competence competence is not a term which is understood in English in the same way than in other languages or in German so I would like to define it competence is defined as the ability to act self-organized and successfully in a future situation which is now unknown and complex so you see already that if you are aiming at that it is no use to teach students safe answers or safe questions but what we have to do in the future more and more is to turn to confronting students with questions for which there are no right or wrong answers in order to teach them to deal with this insecurity and this complexity of an unknown future and often this kind of pedagogical models this kind of learning design which is necessary and which involves the confrontation with the complex problems is seen as a contradiction to knowledge transmission which is the often still predominant model in higher education but what you can see here in the middle of the slide is that it is actually not a contradiction but that the different aspects build on each other so there is a very nice work which was done by one of the great at least German professors and thinkers of higher education development and he is very much promoting that information and knowledge are the precondition to develop the ability to act in a competent way in the sense which I described just before but it is not enough to stop at conveying knowledge it is just the beginning in order to become competent and then to move even higher up the ladder to become professional in a certain domain you need to start to deal with this knowledge and you need to start to reflect on this knowledge and you need to start to deal with values and you need to allow to be shattered and to be levelized in discussion to be touched emotionally impregnated through the teaching and learning process and I already mentioned it that is the third element on the slide that reflection is very very important this is just one model which Schoen was actually developing the model of the reflective practitioner which is basically saying that our aim should be to develop professionals which in every moment are possible to reflect and question their actions and reflect on their actions in a way that they can ad hoc develop strategies and can ad hoc develop individual action theories so that's what really competence the term in higher education is about which we need to develop in order to prepare students for this kind of uncertain future and again the question to everybody would be where are we what do you think in your context where are you there actually you know that the certain teaching strategies are more likely supporting this kind of educational experience and that's the one of course which are more the one which are termed towards social practices interaction, reflection coaching in which the implicit assumption is that education can only be an enabling teaching can only be an enabling process and that there is no clear connection no direct connection between a teaching act and a learning act because learning is always seen as a self-organized process I come to my second point access and inclusion and I think this is pretty straightforward if you think about higher education from the first higher education institution which is actually the Bologna institution sometimes Bologna fights a little bit with Montpellier and says Montpellier says we had a medical faculty which is even earlier than Bologna but generally in common we think that Bologna campus was the first higher education institution the first universities and of course this was higher education for the exclusively chosen very few the elite then if you turn the wheel of time forward very very many years and very quickly in industrialization age the need was becoming bigger and bigger to have a very well educated workforce this workforce was to be educated to meet clear standardized described and defined qualifications because this was what was needed in the factories of the industrialized process and we are still in there actually we are still there that we in our philosophy in our underlying approaches to higher education believe that the clear defined curricula can educate the students of today for the job qualification needs they have in the future now if you think about what would be the next step and sometimes you see that already you can again in terms of architecture I've tried to represent it here on the slide you can say that it is a post-modern, disaggregated architecture this is the stator center of the MIT and the building tries to represent this kind of individualized mix and rip post-modern educational philosophy so basically that leaves us with the career of an idea of higher education which leads from the traditional model over the modern today existing model the post-modern model in which we can talk about individualized and diversified higher education so the access to higher education is becoming rapidly massified and the participation rates will until 2050 grow and grow and grow in industrialized countries as far as the OECD is concerned at least but also in the other continents and parts of the world especially the one which are industrializing now actually the one which are the threshold countries and then after this phase of qualifying students, graduates in a standardized way we will more and more move into an era in which it will become important to teach students according to their needs according to the contexts in which they are and according to the time frames which they choose they want to be taught after having a family, before having a family in between jobs, later in life, or earlier in life so there is an issue of access and inclusion here which needs to be an underlying an underlying which is an underlying development which needs to be taken into account when thinking about quality in higher education how can we cater for the individual needs which are there the third point, individualization and diversity what we can see today is that there are at least three drivers which are bringing about a more individualized learning one is the modernization of the world of work we can see that more and more there is a resolution of a system of fixed professions we used in higher education we are still used to orienting our curricula which we are having on basis to create our curricula on basis of clear defined professional qualifications so that our graduates are able to fulfill the jobs which are defined but we are more and more moving into a situation in which this system of fixed and defined professions is giving way towards flexible and competence oriented and enlarged and enhanced job understanding of professionalism in which students have to continually grow and continuously self-develop in a self-organized way is existing so in a way we are moving from a lifetime employment to a life long learning in a way and from a situation in which we think about graduates as the future professionals which are employed to thinking about entrepreneurial work which has to be done in the organizations more and more the second point which leads to individualization is the flexibilization of the world of education some points I talked already about we can see that there is a flexibilization of degrees in a way that informal and non-formal learning are becoming more and more important in a conference two weeks ago we had many discussions about this actually and we had discussions in which people said today it is less and less important to become a job to get a job to have a good credential today it is more and more important to be able to demonstrate the experience which I bring also and specifically from the informal and non-formal sector then of course the flexibilization of curricula and of learning context is more present today than ever we are looking at modularization of education so students can choose their learning pathways in a way more important then key qualifications and competencies become more and more important in the future it will not so much be important and for quality development is a key issue actually what students know but it will be important what they are able to do what are their competencies and that will be depending on the social and emotional abilities they are having it will be important to be able to take perspectives to take different points of view that is actually what computers cannot do today and the attitude and the underlying philosophy people have towards life the value system which is behind here where do I know from what is right or wrong actually academic education no longer will have to focus on just transferring knowledge but it will have to focus on giving students a compass giving students a direction how they can orient in a more and more complex world an OECD study which was just actually out a few weeks ago was comparing in 60 countries what are the most important main key competencies in these countries the first one from a list of 10 laws to create something new to be creative that is in higher education the first and foremost important key competence in a study in 60 countries the second one is to deal with tensions to be successfully to be able to act successfully in insecure situations and the third one was to take over responsibility to decide yourself for things so you can see that there is a big change towards individualized learning because of these different points, these different aspects I'm sorry because I have just a few minutes in order to have a few minutes at the end to have some questions and comments it could be great if you could finish in one or two minutes more yeah I will try to do that so what you can see here actually is that that there are underlying so to speak tectonic movements which lead in society to a changed context so that individualized learning becomes more and more important individualized learning means that there needs to be a possibility to move between the different educational sectors permeability will become more important and thirdly this again leads to a situation in which recognition aspects recognition processes are becoming more important when students are coming with some bits and pieces from higher education experiences and some bits and pieces from informal or non-formal education and some bits and pieces from training from vocational education and this all needs to be recognized in a permeable educational environment which is individualized and which is catered for their needs then higher education in total actually has a complete new quality challenge which I think we have to be very very careful to understand first of all and then also to try to turn our educational systems in this direction and moving over some slides now which are explaining this process of individualization a little bit more the unbundling of provision and assessment in higher education I already told you that we have started new European initiatives on micro-degrees and on open recognition in which we are thinking and aiming at creating a European passport actually as well a European passport actually as well and I come to the last two points flexibilization I think that has become already very very clear through online technologies we can digitally import curriculum and that means that higher education pathways will not look in the future like today where a student in university one enters university and then learns gets a certification from the same university but where students are in a situation where they can go different pathways actually and the last point digitalization as one of the big drivers actually but also a driver where we have no good answers to today if content is digitally everywhere available what is then actually a convincing digital strategy for a presential university it's a big question we still are discussing many many contexts in national and in Europe if you can learn everywhere what do we do in the classroom if learning communities are the big thing to network students together between themselves with the teachers with experts how do we deal with the situation today that students often perceive this kind of networking still as very artificial how does it become natural and learner generated content can we still or can we in the future as professional professional educators let go of our it's a monopoly of the only ones who are allowed and able to provide knowledge to learn and then of course the whole world of open educational resources I jump over it a little bit and come to my second but last slide in which I would like to summarize again I have shown some bits and pieces of what are the consequences of moving towards a learning society for higher education quality development and I have also shown and concentrated on the digitalization on the digital side and I believe that both these are factors which are taking higher education institutions and systems in between them in a sandwich position you can say and will change this higher education systems or what's more permeable lifelong learning systems in which academic education is just a sequential approach throughout life and not one in the beginning and in which many this association processes will happen so that we become a new environment actually an ecosystem of education which might be organized or oriented like students by academics and by professors and by higher education institutions but in which self-organization and individual pathways will play an enormous role the last years we have accumulated a lot of studies and knowledge about these kind of cultures which need to grow to enable and understand these processes which you can find here and with that I thank you very much and I apologize for taking a bit more of your time than planned in the beginning thank you very much for this very interesting speech and very suggestive for all of us thank you very much I think it's important if we have now almost 10 minutes for questions, for comments around your topics your ideas if some of us, some of the participants want to say something please you can use you can raise your hand using this app you can see this on the top of the screen or you can write your question on the chat as you prefer is there any comment, any question I see here that there is a question by somebody, by Renata how should we teach e-learning students according to the context many times e-students do not have the possibility of carrying out practical activities in on-site mode I think this is the biggest challenge actually to think about and if we would like to individualize learning in the way which I talked about I think what we need to move away from is to move away from a thinking in which everybody learns the same thing at the same time with the same objective the only way to do that in my view is to use learning design patterns which allow students to learn on their own projects because if students are allowed and are also asked to learn on their own project project based or initiative based learning then students can develop exactly those competencies and those issues for them which are important in their context okay I don't know if there is another question I think something like okay I have a question Daniel thank you of course very much it was really a very broad overview you discussed or presented for us there is a lot of challenges and you really pointed out the broad picture but I would like to ask you one of your slides was from Shen with the ladder and then at the notion he is a Swede you also had books from 1983 and 1986 and the issues on the ladder was very much what we are talking about now for learning and imagine that is 30 years ago more or less exactly 30 years ago he pointed out how we will deal with learning how we will deal with education and all those kind of things which you have presented for us but I would like to ask you why do we have this gap why are we still talking about this kind of issues what is missing we have been talking quite a long time about those issues so there must be something wrong in the system for the educational sector and educational system what is your opinion I think that there are several answers to your questions one is that society at large is constantly changing and there are constant new demands and we are now moving into a post industrial age have not arrived there yet but in some of the economy areas we see already that organizations are changing the business model are changing etc etc and so it is only natural that education is always a little bit also an observer of society and then tries to serve society in the way which it needs it but with only one answer I think the other answers that 30 years in the history of universities are not a long time but are rather a long time I think and what I always say is that the good thing with technology is that it is bringing us back to asking the questions which are not so much important for the technological development this is also important and interesting but technology when it enters educational institutions is bringing up questions which actually have to do with educational beliefs and philosophies and that's why I think that the whole issue of online education and e-learning and technology enhanced or enabled learning is very much of benefit to institutional development educational institutional development because we are put in a situation in which we have to answer questions from totally new perspectives and we see that we cannot continue like we did before with participation rates as I mentioned it of more than 60% in the future of one age cohort in academic education we will have to cater so many students in an individual way we have to develop new individualized answers to that and I believe that's a benefit actually and don't see it so much as a legging part I think we have one question more from Leona can you read it here on the chat yeah thank you very much for the interesting speech it gave much food for thought I'm currently researching the quality of instructional design of MOOCs offered by Coursera based on the quality matters standards any recommendations of course one of my references to our study in the Prological Quality of MOOCs yeah I think that the quality of MOOCs is an area in which actually the study of quality is on the one hand something which we can find lots of inspiration and because MOOCs are interesting from several dimensions they are often quite content oriented they are often in models where self organization is very important but other MOOCs are again also a little bit social oriented so to define criteria or to define quality for this kind of learning is I think very very necessary and at the same time it is quite demanding we have done a blog project a couple of years ago in which we invited experts who gave their opinions on quality of MOOCs and we found that apart from let's say the classical fields in which you say what is the pedagogy of the masses and so on also other interesting new considerations came into the game and that was a consideration is in the MOOC a drop out a problem or a built-in feature so somebody is stopping the MOOC without completing it this kind of drop out and this is a question which we in traditional education also in traditional more traditional online education had a clear answer to but which is coming up in MOOCs in which we can rather say that probably somebody who didn't finish the MOOC is not a failure or a drop out or a problem but is somebody who has taken his own self organized approach to his own learning opportunities so it's a bit let's say not comprehensive what I'm saying now towards your question but to be honest I feel not really able to answer the question very comprehensively because I think it's a very broad question which you answered and there's one thing also do you think it is correct for Spanish accreditation organization but the question by Renata to assess and certify e-learning programs by applying the same criteria models as the one applied to traditional educational programs well yes and no that's a question which many countries are helping actually those accreditation agencies which are focusing more on assessing the quality management system they are actually asking the question it's a higher education institution able to perform quality management processes which are shaping the educational offers the programs which they have in a way that it is beneficiary a benefit for students so if you ask this question in such a broad way you can apply it to traditional and to e-learning programs in the same way if you now go a level deeper and you're saying no actually I would like to have a look specifically at the delivery mode of a traditional versus an online program then of course you cannot apply the same criteria because you need to take into account different processes different standards for student guidance for teaching time for formats of delivery and you cannot so to speak apply exactly the same one-on-one from the one mode of delivery to the other mode of delivery so it depends a little bit in Germany we are moving towards quality management systems and in that we are always saying a quality management system should be able to deal inherently with the different modes of delivery that the university has so we do not need a specific one for you. Thank you very much this is a very interesting topic a lot of interesting questions to help to questions more but we don't have time to do it but just let me say something my question was related to the network how the network on different universities which is the role of the networks in this global quality situation today but we don't have time to comment that thank you very much for your participation and also for the participation of the people that stay here in your speech and also make some comments and questions to you and I think now to finish this webinar Eva want to say something just to close. Yes I would like to say something to close this webinar that's all I will thank you so much everyone who has participated today and of course especially with Daniel Ellis on behalf of the special interest group on tell and quality enhancement and this was our second webinar this autumn and we will have a tweet chat on next week and our group has just started so to say and we have a rather comprehensive and active action plan for the next year for 2018 and please follow up for our activities and please follow the web page at Eden web page we are collaborating with Eden very much with Antonella and Alfreda who is also here today so thank you both of the webinars this autumn have really already given a lot of food for thought which we will continue and also to cultivate our discussions and our contributions within the field of quality enhancement in tell so thank you very much all of you thank you bye bye