 Alright, Damien, you're not by any chance the attorney on the tiny house bill, are you? I sure am. Oh, would you like to stick around? I was going to ask if you wanted me to stick around since my schedule just opened up. Sure, I'm happy to. Absolutely. So Representative Christie, are you here? I hope it's the right room. Well, it's an it's it's old home day today. Representative Morrissey and now representative. Christie is a house general alums who ducked out of the committee years ago now but as is ensconced in the judiciary committee so. You have a bill with us. That's on tiny houses age 347. Yeah. So, Good afternoon, everybody. This is representative Kevin coach Christie for the record. The build that we're talking about today is. We're calling it the tiny house bill. And, you know, what, what spurred my interest is the number of, you know, our age children that are looking at, you know, smaller accommodations. And the traditional multi thousand foot square foot homes isn't really what they're interested in, or at least it, you know, it appears. You know, having it function and have the functionality of kind of it. It's almost like a Swiss army knife home. I watched some of the, the construction programs, you know, about tiny homes and it's just fascinating. The amount of accommodations that can be fitted into a much smaller space. So, so that being said, thinking about options for our young Vermont family members to be able to return and be able to return in a way that that works for them. There's a whole notion of tiny houses and having very clear regulations around how they would function. So that's turned into a big campground parking lot type of situation seemed to make sense. So so that's the the overall overall genesis of the bill Damien. Thomas was able to stay and he drafted the actual language of the bill and it parallels a lot of the work that they're doing in New Hampshire as well, because they've been looking at that prospect of like the rest of us. It seems to be a kind of a national occurrence. So so that's that's the cliff notes version of the thinking. All right, thank you. We like cliff notes sometimes, especially because Damien's here to take us through the bill. Yeah, so thank you coach. Thank you. I can give you guys the. Do you have volume. Oh, sorry, my microphone was was in the wrong spot. There you go. I stood up and stretched in between here. There we go. So, let's, this bill is speaking of Swiss army knives. This bill is in many ways like that Swiss army knife that always looks appealing in the store but then you can't figure out how to carry it because it has so many tools on it. So that this bill, because housing touches on so many different parts of our statutes as I know this committee is aware this bill, just like that touches on a number of different things. So it starts off with the building and safety codes. So the first thing that it does is, and this is in the provisions around fire safety and building and safety codes. The second thing is that all codes and rules adopted by the commissioner of public safety would apply to owner occupied that apply to owner occupied single family residences would also apply to tiny houses. So in other words, you have to meet the same code requirements in terms of building and safety codes as you would for a single family home. And then it defines tiny house to mean a structure that's intended for year round occupancy that contains facilities for sleeping eating cooking and sanitation, and is either constructed on a permanent foundation or on a trailer or semi trailer. So those terms are defined pursuant to our transportation law and has not more than 400 square feet of floor area, excluding any lofts. So it establishes the footprint, which is for maximum of 400 square feet. This distinguishes it from a mobile home, which has a minimum of 900 square feet. So this is less than half the size of that. The trailer and semi trailer requirements. That relates to, and I can't remember the exact definitions but it relates to basically how the trailer rides, and whether it requires the support of of a vehicle to stay upright. There's something else underneath it so. And again, I cannot remember the exact provisions there and then the, the facilities for sleeping eating cooking and sanitation just basically require that distinguishes this in some ways from some camping trailers which may not have facilities for sanitation for example, but also requires that this be a self contained living arrangement here. So it also provides that a tiny house built on a trailer or a semi trailer so in other words one that could be towed on the roadway, meet the requirements of our transportation laws related to tremor trailers and semi trailers, and be adhered in a manner that is approved by the traffic committee, which is, I believe the secretary of transportation, the commissioner of motor vehicles, and the commissioner of public safety. And then, but again that that is set out defined by statute. And this committee addresses these rules of the road, as far as vehicle safety and road safety. And this, this basically the goal of this requirement here is to make sure that if you have tiny house that can be towed, transporting it from one location to another is not going to endanger other people on the road. So that, that's sort of the basic requirements there is it has to meet the building code. It has to meet certain minimum requirements as far as the living facility to be called a tiny house. And if it is mobile, it, it has to be able to be transported safely on the roadways. The next sections here relate to the electrical code. And it just for plot, ours, and electrical rules and code provisions adopted by the electricians licensing board that applied a single family dwellings would also have to apply to tiny houses, and it uses the same definition that we just created in title 20. The next section here relates to the plumbing code. Again rules and code provisions adopted by the board that apply to single family dwellings would also have to apply to tiny houses. And within all three of these I just want to note that if the committee moves forward with this bill I would recommend getting testimony from each of these bodies, regarding whether you should add in language. To permit these the boards or the division of fire safety to adopt specific exemptions or alternate requirements for tiny houses. Understanding that there may be differences. And for example how you would safely plumb a tiny house versus a traditional home. I don't have the expertise to know that. So this is starting from the point of everything should have the same requirements. The next provisions here with municipal zoning. This provides that a code or regulation adopted pursuant a basically a municipal zoning code or regulation that applies to single family dwellings would also have to apply to tiny houses. And that no municipal zoning code or regulation could have the effect of excluding tiny houses, except if it's on the same terms and conditions as conventional housing as excluded. So for example, if there is a setback requirement for traditional housing that would also have to apply to tiny houses. By the same token you couldn't exclude tiny houses from a district, unless you were also excluding other forms of dwellings from that district for example if you've created an industrial district where residential dwelling is prohibited, or you have a district in your residential zoning regulations where nearly all development maybe is prohibited because of the nature of the district wetland flood zone something like that. The next section here, section five is just definition section, providing that the same definition of tiny houses is adopted entitled 20 applies. This deals with required provisions and prohibited effects in zoning codes. And it, we're adding to the provision here that currently prohibits any zoning bylaw from having the effect of excluding mobile homes, modular housing or prefabricated housing, we're adding tiny houses to that list. And with the proviso that a municipality can establish site specific standards to regulate mobile home parks and tiny house parks with regard to the distances between structures and other standards necessary to ensure public health safety and welfare, provided they don't have the effect of prohibiting the replacement of those structures. So a municipal bylaw can have the effect of excluding mobile home parks or tiny house parks from the municipality. And then again we're applying the same provisions related to non conformities and mobile home parks so non conformity is is where, for example, the municipal zoning bylaw is updated to say that the setback has to be 20 feet. So when that park was established the setback was 10 feet. And so now the structures are 10 feet apart and they no longer conform to the bylaws so if you have a pre existing non conformity what we're saying is that the structures in the mobile home park. So for the tiny house park, you have to look at it on a park wide from a park wide lens that you don't prevent lots within that park from being developed if the park was previously permitted again. So this is preventing municipalities from regulating mobile home parks and what we would add tiny house parks out of existence through changes to their zoning bylaws that gradually hollow out the park from the inside. So the next provisions here. What we're adding here is, we're adding tiny houses to the provisions regarding the purchase and sale of mobile homes. So we have a whole chapter in our cover title governing commerce. That provides protections and risk requirements around the sale and purchase of mobile homes. We're adding tiny houses to that. The idea being that tiny houses are very similar particularly and that they could be located on least land like a mobile home and a mobile home park. So, we're adding in section seven, section seven that the purchase and sale requirements tiny houses included in the definition of mobile home. And then within the requirements around mobile home parks and title 10. We're adding tiny houses to those same requirements so they're treated identically again. So what section eight is just updating those definitions to bring tiny houses and the concept of a tiny house park or a park owner owning either a mobile home park or a tiny house park into that statute. We're adding a section governing tiny house parks that provides in section nine here that the provisions of this chapter shall apply to tiny house parks, tiny house park owners tiny house park residents, and leaseholders and tiny house parks in the same manner as they do to their equivalent in a mobile home park. And then gets into taxation. So sale or transfer of mobile homes and we're adding tiny houses to this statute. And providing that the transfer of ownership in a mobile home, or a tiny house, the taxes around that are going to be the same. Including the requirements around a uniform bill of sale. Provided under title nine. And so again throughout here we're just adding or tiny house so that the requirements are identical. And then the section 11 relates to when there is a tax sale to acquire a land. Following a delinquent tax issue. And it basically provides the same provisions for extending that tax warrant to a mobile home on the in a mobile home park, as it would be to a tiny house in a tiny house park. And then in again. So 10 vs a 6248 C, I believe is so this relates to the collection of taxes here and I got to be honest I have to check back as to what 6248 C refers to but again we're extending the same requirements here for mobile homes and tiny house parks. Sorry this is what happens when I do a walkthrough without preparing ahead of time. But I will get back to you on what that requirement is the the key point here is that again. When they're extending a warrant for collection of delinquent taxes here, and there's been notice provided pursuant to the mobile home home park law or in this case, what would become also the tiny house park law. The collector would commence tax sale proceedings within a set time after receiving that notice. The next section here includes a tiny house and the definition of homestead for purposes of the homestead property tax exemption. And then the section 14 is the section where we have to set out the statutory purpose of tax exemptions. The capital gains credit which is created in section 15 is what we're referring to here and we say that it's to encourage sales of mobile home or tiny house parks to a group composed of a majority of the mobile home or tiny house park lease holders, or to a nonprofit organization representing those groups so as some of you will be familiar with or maybe all of you. So what you've done with David on tiny or on mobile homes this year. We do have a provision in the law that allows an organization of the, the owners of the homes within a mobile home park to purchase that park from the mobile home park owner when they want to sell in order to protect the land that their, their houses rest on. And so, like I mentioned before section 15 here is including tiny house parks in that capital gains credit for those sales back to the owners of the homes in that park. Section 16 here relates to computing the property tax credit for the owner of a mobile home and we're adding again tiny houses to that. And section 17 is excluding the retail sales. Or excluding from the sales and use tax. The 40%. Yeah, 40%. I'm sorry. It's just wrapping my head around the language here. Again, so 40% of the receipts from the sales of mobile homes and tiny houses here when they're sold as tangible personal property is excluded from the sales and use tax. And then the in section 18 we're excluding from the definition of land land comprising a mobile home or tiny house park. That is transferred in a single purchase to a group consisting of the owners in that park. So, again, this is for excluding tax exclusion here to encourage that transfer. And then section 19 would require conforming revisions to be made. When ledge council makes revisions throughout title 32, as needed for consistency with section eight of this act by substituting a mobile home or a tiny house is defined in 20 vs a 2731 for a mobile home and any other revisions that are substantially similar. And then the effective date is July one. So, I will say that I worked closely with Abby shepherd from our office on drafting the tax sections. If you have questions about those tax provisions. I am not our tax attorney so I would really strongly encourage you to talk to Abby on those issues because she's much more aware of the ins and outs of the various complications of property tax. And of course I imagine if this bill does move forward, your ways and means committee would be interested in taking a look at those with Abby as well just to consider what the potential implications would be. But as I said from the beginning, what the idea was with this bill is to put tiny houses on the same footing as single family homes. And then in instances where there's a distinction between what I'll call a traditional single family home and a mobile home to put tiny houses on the same footing as mobile homes because of their similarity. In the way they can be cited on least land very easily or potentially moved from one location to another before they're fixed to the ground. So I see there's questions. I'm going to represent a trial. When you spoke of safety equipment if these tiny houses are mounted on trailer frames or wheels. Is that is it that would be lights and brakes and and things like that would be required under that section. It's it's, it is anticipated that that would be along those lines requirements for the construction of the trailer, how the tiny house is fixed to the trailer. Safety lighting breaks weight limitations, etc. Again, anthea from our offices are are expert on transportation issues. So I can, if there are more detailed questions I can pass them on to her. Or you may want to hear testimony from for example, agency of transportation or Department of Motor Vehicles regarding what those requirements would be. You know, and it is important to note that this bill does require them to conform with certain statutes but it also gives some discretion to the Transportation Committee to adopt additional requirements that might be unique to tiny houses. And I can't say what those would be but just, you know, with the idea of taking a framed living structure down the highway. There, there obviously may be some unique considerations and requirements in the same way there are for mobile homes. Representative Parsons. Yeah, I just had a question about you said that this is kind of bring them in line with a single family home or a mobile home. But certainly there are a lot of these that are designed to go down the road and they're used as campers really as more in that vein I guess you'd say, does this address any of that, or does this doesn't, this doesn't address the idea of using a tiny house as a camper. The, our transportation law already does address camper trailers. And so it may be something that would be left up to rulemaking as to how to distinguish between a tiny house that for example is seasonally brought to a property that's used as a camp by a family, and then, and then towed somewhere else in a, you know, when the weather becomes unseasonable there maybe they they move it to a different property and a more temperate part of the country. Versus one that gets fixed to the ground in the way mobile home would be where you're you're connected up to a septic tank and so forth. I believe that there are some requirements around sanitation for camper trailers. And I don't know how you would draw the line, necessarily between a tiny house that needs to be hooked up to for example, a septic system versus a camper trailer that would have an onboard tank for wastewater that can then be deposited periodically in a septic disposal facility. Yeah, thanks that was just one of my was listening to us kind of trying to get around the idea of how unintentionally we might wrap up these into a mobile home unit when it's really not the intent of the owner. Yeah, and I think this is one of the policy questions that the committee if if you move forward with this bill. What I need to grapple with is, where do you draw the line on on tiny house versus some other forms of, you know, dwellings. And are there complications that you need to either leave up to rulemaking, or that you can address through statute, and so forth and I think this is one of the things that jurisdictions around the country as they've been trying to address tiny houses have been struggling with is because of the unique nature of the homes where for a portion of their life or all their life they could be fixed at one spot. But in other instances you may see a tiny house that moves either seasonally or, you know, moves every couple of years as it changes owners and I. I don't speak for Coach Christie but I think his idea is is to address tiny houses that are used as housing, rather than something that's used, and he's not trying to wrap up things that are used as campers, or something like that like a recreational vehicle for example. I would say that that's the the general thinking. When we think about properties in a lake here in Vermont, for example. If we had a child that wanted to come back you've got four acres of land and it's just your son and daughter or, you know, as a couple, not really looking to be that mobile, but families move a lot more now. But the hope would be, they might move back home home, and then maybe look for a piece of property, you know, either, you know, in the kingdom or what have you that they might move it to for even a more extended, you know, period. And as we get more connectivity. The likelihood of needing to be in a certain area. Just, you know, it's, you know, there's no confines anymore, you know, because you know and we've seen that, you know, especially with coven where there is connectivity. Employers have said, Hey, you know the model is changing. I thought I had a question but I'm actually not thinking that it's easily answered so I'm going to wait for further testimony on it I appreciate it there's a lot more to think about on this than I thought there would be. Also I regret I have another meeting so I need to leave. So thank you coach. Thank you. Thank you. Damian a quick question for me what is the relationship in this legislation at least right now from tiny houses as ad us. So, this legislation. I've stayed away from amending the accessory dwelling unit law, knowing that that can be just an issue that generates a lot of discussion. But nothing would prevent a tiny house from being used as an accessory dwelling unit with the way this is drafted. If you look at the definition of accessory dwelling unit and it's been a couple months since I looked at it, but it's something I worked at or worked with somewhat regularly in my career before the legislature. It's, it's defined as a dwelling unit that is. I don't remember what the word is but basically is secondary to the main unit. It's subordinate to us is the way we phrase it. So clearly subordinate to the main unit. And I think if you have for example, to take a variation on coach Christie's example here where you know the parents have a property here in Vermont. The child wants to move back but doesn't want to live in the same house wants their own space. The parents could very easily set up tiny house in the way. You've seen this happening increasingly on the west coast with municipalities having to address backyard tiny houses where because the housing costs are so high and some of the cities out there. They have set up a tiny house in the backyard for their children. So their children can get established and have affordable housing but, and they're taking advantage of accessory dwelling unit laws out there to set up the tiny house as an ADU in the backyard, meeting all of the requirements for sanitation and so forth. So using the tiny house which is more affordable alternative to, for example, a traditional stick built accessory dwelling unit on that property where you need to dig and pour a foundation or a slab with frost protection and so forth. And in this case, I think the short answer after that long and rambling explanation is that there's nothing that prevents them from being used as an accessory dwelling unit. And so they would be brought into that conversation. Okay, representative walls. Thank you. I don't remember hearing anything, and you'll walk through that address this Damien. But the mention of families made me think okay what if it's a couple as a tiny home they have a baby and then decide to add a bedroom and it's no longer bigger than 400 square feet. And it's just a single family home. I don't remember anything you said that would cause a problem. I don't see any reason why that would create a problem. Obviously if you're going to expand your tiny home in the same way that if you expanded a, you know, a small seasonal cabin or something into a more permanent residence, you'd have to comply with building code and zoning requirements. And as you do that, I think the tiny house owners could potentially see some construction complications around that with the expansion. But I think what you would basically see is, you know, that they may run into some complications around expanding the home and bringing it out of that tiny house definition. There's nothing that prevents them from doing it they may just need to take some special steps to, you know, to make that structure to the expansion of it, in terms of maybe putting a more permanent foundation under the tiny house or something legally. There's nothing preventing them from doing that provided they can comply with the code and zoning requirements for their location and and what they're planning to do. All right, any further questions right now for coach or Damian. All right. Well thank you for introducing the bill and doing the walkthrough. Thank you for handing us something that seems so simple and plain that we can pass it tomorrow but I always love when we mix housing and mobile homes and automobile law and tax law and that's the Vermont way. It just takes a couple places. Representative Murphy. I would definitely say if I was still next door to you I'd be knocking on your door saying what are you doing with my title. It's just a tiny title. It's a subtitle. All right. Thanks everybody we're going to call it a day. We have a long day tomorrow ahead of us. We're back here in the morning, and then we have Jerry to on the floor tomorrow. So enjoy the day I'm going to go take a walk for a change it's been a couple of weeks it seems.