 So this is a pick Jerry's brain call around the idea of lime coats, which we'll dive into in just a second. And one way I think about it is that we had a really nice dinner conversation recently where you burst the idea. This is kind of a continuation of that. And I'm a little bit more informed that I might be in a typical Jerry's brain session because I had a bunch of ideas during our conversation that I came back and loaded up in my brain. And then I will what I'm trying to do in the session is make your idea be all that it could be a little bit like the army's old motto, except, in fact, which is almost a little bit apropos to this conversation. Right. Because because it's a service force of some sort that's going around the world, etc, etc. And I'm here's my calendar but here's your post on your blog about lime coats so I have got that. And then here's my brain oops and I'm actually not sharing screen yet so I think it would probably help a lot if I did that and then showed you your post on lime coats, which is right here. And then also here's my brain. This is the thought I've created for this call. So I started out with a bunch of things and we can dive in or we can just hit pause for a second and see what questions what other questions you have as we go in. So, if I love history. So if I may be permitted a little bit of history which maybe we covered very likely we did Jerry when we were talking at dinner, which is, once upon a time. Jonathan and I were having dim sum in San Francisco, and Jonathan remembers where, right. Yeah, I think of course, of course, I mean there are other places but really, but why, why would you go to why bother. So, and as, and as I recall it, you know, I was opining as I sometimes do on on the thing that the legacy I wanted to leave as a result of my American presidency, which was to create a mandatory national service. And Jonathan, probably without missing a beat said, Oh, I should really tell you about this story that I made up once upon a time, and he told me for the first time about a story he had he had written which at the time, referred to a group called Yellow Jackets which have since become lime coats and Jonathan can speak to my sting. There you go. But, but, but at the time, you know, the conversation was very much a connection around how people might become part of a constructive, positive, progressive force, rather than a dominating colonializing, etc. And Jonathan and I have talked, you know, on and off about these ideas for years. And, you know, what what what we might ever make of them. In the past couple of years, you know, I shared some of this thinking with a friend who, you know, got super excited about it and yet again said, Hey, you know, like we got to do something with these ideas are too too good. And in the past couple of years in particular, it started to seem to me that the lime coats design fiction, among other things, provided a kind of powerful and catalytic way in to talking about policing. And, you know, which we can see has also, you know, like, like the military that was sort of the original subject as the archetypal corrupt institution in the original line quotes fiction is a thing with a lot of the same kind of problems because surprise, surprise, you know, the systemic antecedents are largely the same. And in some cases, in some cases, police perhaps worse. You know, then, then the history of the armed forces but anyway, just wanted to sort of lay that historical table setting get that mostly right, Jonathan from from your recollections. Yeah, the other, the other piece of it to is the way in which, you know, we actually ask the armed forces to do a bunch of things that aren't soldiering right, because they're the institution we have available so and, and there's this, you know, sort of a scramble to find resources whenever there is either a urgent or an ongoing need for some kind of supportive intervention. Like, you know, if there's a, you know, if there's a hurricane and people are washed out of their homes, then we can weirdly send the Marines to help. And there are things like the International Red Cross, but what we really need is some, you know, sort of standing capacity to hand field those kinds of things. And then there's also the kinds of crazy things that like the US Army Corps of Engineers is doing all over the world, addressing these kind of more strategic infrastructural problems. And again, it is kind of weird to have that in the form of the armed forces. And then on the third hand, there's also the example, the Peace Corps, which is a parallel idea, but the Peace Corps is a deliberately kind of anarchic and deliberately amateurist institution as compared to this other thing that we need. And not that the Peace Corps is bad, but we also need something that's like professionalized that like has the sort of tidy, can do effectiveness that we associate with, you know, military institutions at their best. Yeah. And, and maybe, you know, because I'm sure that I've heard this at some point, but, but not recently. What do you, what do you remember about what, what would actually put put all of this in your mind. What's part of time I was there an occasioning event or context that started you thinking on this path once upon a time. Oh yeah, no, I can tell you exactly what it was in. So there's a science fiction writer named David Gerald, who wrote a series of novels called the war against the couture with flying saucers and ray guns they invade with invasive species space kudzu. And, and sort of like, disconcertingly it actually starts with a series of plagues kills off a lot of human population. And then as people are picking up the pieces they're dealing with all of these problems. And part of the science fictional conceit is that prior to the events of the novels, the United States has suffered a catastrophic military debacle and debacle failure. Such as the world community said, we are sick and tired of your imperial military adventurism, they forced the US to disarm and repurpose the US military to be a global force for running around and fixing all the things that imperialism and colonialism broke. The war against the couture. Yep. Thanks. Yeah, George R. Martin's fans don't know pain I know pain. The fourth book came out 25 years ago and it's a seven part series and where's the next one, Dave, where is it. So I read this when I was I read the first not the first novel like when I'm a teenager and and it's in dialogue with the sort of para fascist ideas of military service in in Heinlein's novel Starship Troopers. I mean like it's very directly in dialogue with that like it's it's clear there's there are scenes where it's like, yeah let's do this but not fascist and and I that just sort of stuck in my mind and and that led to the design fiction that was rattling around my head that bubbled up when we had that conversation and must have been what six or seven years ago now. Yeah, I mean it may be longer Jonathan that maybe it may be more like 10 but you know we're all it's hard to track a time. Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Yeah, so, so that's all good. That's all good history. And I'm enjoying looking. And I'm happy to wonder where I'm whatever I'm passing that you attract your attention if you see a shiny object tell me about it and I'll go there. I have a bunch of stuff about the US Marine Corps, and there's also actually reforming the police is a thought that I have this connected to abolish the police which goes back to sort of the black lives matter and there's nothing else that was going on. And, and I'll just do a little sort of quick tour here because we have police doing things that they have no business doing. We've kind of gotten rid of a whole series of preventative measures and social services, both, we just like mostly snip them cut them shredded them. And that means that everything shows up either in the ER, or the police have to, you know, come in and intervene. And so, so this conversation is stalls stuck broken in the US abolish the police is probably the worst branding there's ever been for an interesting movement. I think there was nonviolent communication, which is a fabulous way of doing things and a really, really bad name. Because all you think about it's like wait, there's violence in that word as well. How'd that happen. But, but there's there's this very nice starting notion that militaries whether police or armies are the wrong people to be fixing stuff. Right. And in Portland, for example, they created a street service core whose name escapes me right now, but the PPD the Portland Police Department which got itself in lots and lots of trouble during lockdown and all the protests. They spun off this group that gets sent to street incidents and it's got like an EMT and a psychiatrist and you know several different kinds of people who can show up and actually deal with things that aren't police matters. And part of the problem also is that police matters sometimes escalate way out of control. And part of the problem there is that we militarized our police. And there's a, I'm going to follow this this just a little bit further because this is kind of a. This is a an interesting thing that is connected but a lot of us. This is a conversation of police. And I'll connect that to our call today, and the bullet proof warrior which is a training that most of our police forces have had in the US. And it started from this guy. Oops. Dave Grossman, who I used to like, I've never met him, but he wrote a really, really, really interesting book called on killing the psychological cost of learning. It's a brilliant book that I used to use this because the psychology of killing talks about I used to use this about marketing and advertising. I used to say that hey, because advertisers live fancy lives on Madison Avenue and elsewhere and have social distance and psychological distance from the people they're dropping messages on. They don't worry about it but in fact, it's, you know, there's a lot of lessons for advertising in this book. And it turns out that his next his next gig was inventing the bullet proof warrior and going and training a bunch of police to pull the trigger and empty their clip when it seems like their own lives are barely in jeopardy it's like it's either your life or theirs so empty your clip. What is part of the freak out is that our police have avoided this thing that was invented a very long time ago, which is called the peel principles or the peeling principles named after Sir Robert peel, who was a prime minister of the UK way back when, and help create the metropolitan police in 1829. The peel principles for an ethical police force are lovely and they're part of the reason why Bobby's walked around without weapons. Right. And then there's a counter argument here which is like, yeah, except now you have gangs with submachine guns, etc, etc. That's an interesting conversation. And at that point I've gone too many like tangents from the place where we're starting. But but an important question is, for example, how do you keep line code safe. What do you think the cool answer, which no one will like. Oh good. Perfect. Perfect. Is that you don't. You don't keep them safe. Yeah, you don't keep them safe. What you do is you build a cultural myth of heroism around that fact, just as we do with firefighters, and just as we do with soldiers. And you honor the danger and you make the commitment to, to, you know, not just non violence like anti violence of the line code ethos to be part of what you romanticize like the whole point of the design fiction is to say like how do you build the poetics of this, such that it produces the cultural values that you want in such an institution, because, you know, on the on the global scale, right, the, the danger here the thing that makes me nervous about my own proposal is the inherent white savior is a colonial imperialist we know what to do. We're going to send a bunch of guys in uniform like the poetics of that, and the actual mechanics of that are both serious serious problem if you're actually going to do any of these things. I think, you know, like, again on the global scale the United States actually has a moral responsibility, having run around and broken a bunch of things like, you know, and having, you know, siphoned off the world's wealth, well then we should be devoting our energies to setting some things right. And there's a bunch of governance questions about that but there's also the politics so like, I think at some point. I don't know if it's in the blog post. But if you know they need a Latin motto, which means something like, you know, fearless into danger. Like that's got to be central to what the FO says. And you need something like equivalent to the Hippocratic oath, right, where, where, you know, you say, you know, we're going to help anyone and everyone and if they're threatening us well then that's part of the job. And it gets really interesting because if nobody invited you in but you come rushing in because you're here to help. Is that a problem. I mean it certainly is. Yeah, so I mean this is, this is why right. This is, this is why the conversation about about a bear, bear fiction is so both inviting and necessary. Right, so I'm going to agree with with Jonathan in spirit but but disagree. For example, on the idea of, you know, your question was, how do we keep them safe and Jonathan said, we don't by which he meant, if I'm not wrong Jonathan. I don't, we are going to put them in danger. I mean, their very mission is, is to be willing to to place themselves in a certain kind of danger, which is not to say jeopardy. Right, but, but, but the context in which line quotes present themselves are per se dangerous. That's not only unavoidable. It's the nature of the context into which you want to introduce them in the first place. So the question, you know, of, of keeping them safe is secondary to me to the other, you know what I think is really interesting question and contrast to, you know, you're thinking about the militarization police. Jerry is. So, so we need to talk a little bit more about context and sort of summoning occasions and contexts that would bring bring forth line codes. And for me then the question is, how do we equip my line codes, right, right. And, you know, the first order answer which is in the very name that Jonathan has given so far is part of their equipment is how they literally show up. And, and there's something, you know, very, very intentional about the idea of how they show up bright and visible. Right. And, and I think, you know, one of the, one of the things that certainly I'm interested in poking at, you know, when we use line codes as a way into talking about policing, for example, is, you know, in order to talk about policing, you know, we don't have to accept all of the terms of the conversation that are already set up by policing right we can use it as a way into talking beyond the current reality that we confront and don't like. And, and I guess, you know, part of that for me is, you know, this this contextual question, what is it that summons line codes. And one of the things that Jonathan and I had a little conversation about but you know, certainly an area that I'm really interested in digging into more deeply is the idea that one of the things that line codes can do is witness. And, and so there's a question mark about whether, you know, like police line codes should show up to intervene, whatever that means right, because that's one of the things that for sure is true about police right as police are dispatched at least propositionally prepared to intervene. So that's not a necessary step. But if not exactly intervention then what. So, I just think that's really fertile space. It's, it's super fertile space and several things occur immediately. One is this notion of and well fair witnesses from Heinlein, which is people who are in white robes hello. So this might actually sort of be role models for line codes. That's a charming idea because like part of the poetics of fair witnesses is that they have this whole mystique about their fundamental ethical commitment which is part of how they define themselves. And that's very much the kind of thing that I think is useful in the design fiction for line codes as well. Yes. Exactly and fair witnesses are in a court of law, like you can fully trust what a fair witness says because that is their pledge that is how they're raised etc etc so so there's kind of that. Then there's a whole other sort of witnessing thing about enlightened witnesses, which it comes out of Alice Miller and her book banished knowledge, and enlightened witness is basically someone who will listen to your story and believe you, and you don't need to solve anything or fix anything and then an early girlfriend kind of enlightened me on this because she was a big fan of Alice Miller introduced me to her thinking. And I was like, like, like a guy, I'd hear something like, Oh, oh, and you know, and at one point she's like, you don't need to fix this, I just want you to hear it. Right. Right. And there's a piece of the crises that we're in, which is we are in an epidemic of not listening. So that's I've got a bunch of stuff around that which I'll connect up to our. Oh, and I'm sorry, you know, I gotta stop you right there because, you know, there are so many examples but the first one that came to mind with Sandra Bland of police violence that is literally about not listening. Bingo. You can hear the not listening, listening to the recording of the interaction between the cop who stopped Sandra Bland and Sandra Bland herself. And, and, you know, so, so there are a couple of things right. I mean, you know, there's not listening. I mean, there's the impossibility of listening or hearing created by certain circumstances right some of them structural some of them circumstantial, right. But we have taught people all people, not just white people to fear black men. In certain contexts. I mean, the last thing you can afford to do is listen that goes to your illusion earlier Jerry to this whole, you know, empty the clip kind of idea which which clearly like I mean, it's not a monstrous to talk about it but right, you know, one has to be able to imagine a context in which that was not introduced as a monstrous idea but as a reasonable idea. Right, right. It's either you were that has to what has to be believed about the circumstance and the threat such that that could even show up as a reasonable, other than a monstrous excessive out of the box idea. And I do think that, you know, I do think it's very, very connected to this idea of, you know, we make a joke, right. About, you know, a hard joke these days about shoot shoot first ask questions later. But this is, this is a very real. Again, to the couple of points already made. This is not just a joke. It's actually a tactical posture. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And it and it could be that one of the major weapons that lime coats are armed with is a very deep empathic listening patient listening. Here I'll point to Daryl Davis, who was one of my heroes who I got to interview recently. He's the guy you've seen his his probably his tech his TED talk. What do you do when someone just doesn't like you. And he basically says how can you hate me when you don't even know me. He has a garage full of KKK robes because he listened to KKK grand dragons and other celebrities with respect and connections. And eventually over the course of two years they invited him to their homes and he invited them to his home and they eventually said here take my room I'm out. Right. That bad that melting of fear is brilliant. And a piece of our problem because a different way of looking at lime coats is there are emergencies everywhere we need to find a volunteer cord that's going to rush into danger, solve it turn and go to the next one. And that is the way of thinking about this right it's it's a little bit like the firemen and Fahrenheit 451 or something like that, like they only got to got to burn the books. Oops, no sorry put out the books, never mind. But but you know, there's very different ways of configuring or even even thinking about it and it's funny here, I'm going to go for a moment to Zappos. Because Zappos has this crazy crazy thing where they think that spending a long time on a service call is a great thing. So they give wow they give awards to people who thought I had this in here somewhere but I'll just attach this thought. They give awards to their reps who spent a whole long time fixing something because they know that that person whose problem was solved even if it took a long time is going to tell that story 20 times. Right. So this is something about slowing down and patience. Same thing goes with deep canvassing right now. Political parties are discovering. Oh my God, that instead of got to spell it right. Instead of instead of dropping by showing you an app leaving your brochure saying vote for my candidate and leaving. If you actually spend 45 minutes asking questions that you can change the vote like like the actual gift is is measure measurable and much larger than the usual. Let's book the numbers kind of canvassing. All of us to say is that slow is fast. And to build to build on that and connect it again to listening Jerry, you know, it one of one of the, to me one of the most effective political movements that that you know, still still very live and still very much, you know, not, I think, studied enough in its, in its tactics is black lives matter. And, of course, of course, the very concept of the phrase black lives matter acknowledges the thing that, you know, too many clumsy white people, you know, running the room right after and say all lives matter. Of course, they do, right. Except we don't act that way. We don't act as if we've ever heard that the phrase, you know, all lives matter as inclusive of black lives. And, and it's clearly, you know, a deep part of the tactics, whether whether this was, you know, deeply thought out, or, or, or, you know, realized as we go, how important the repetition of the phrase is so that slowly, we all understand and all start to listen. Right. Because it seems to me that precisely the, the, the, the, the effect, the phrase is meant to have on those of us who are not black is to listen to what we are not used to hearing. Right. It is to teach us to listen to something that we have been ignoring as much as we think or would like to think that that our concept of human rights and equal rights already includes this idea. You know, but how could that be true, if all the things that keep happening to black people keep happening to black people it just cannot. And this is where I have to confess that I am a, I myself am a radicalized police abolitionist. I think that in order to solve the problems we're talking about, you need to completely sever the relationship with the entire institution of policing in the US for all of the familiar reasons right. And so, if we are to take this design fiction to thinking about the challenges of the thing we are trying to do with policing. And I don't think that the thing that we were talking about when we talk about line coats replaces everything that we ask police to do. So it replaces most of it, because as you were saying earlier, right, you know, if there's an immediate crisis in a city, then you write you call 911 and they send one of three kinds of person people, they they send a firefighter with a hose. So actually, our general purpose problem solving resources firefighters. Right. Most of what firefighters do is not putting out fires, but the extreme primacy of fighting fires create certain limitations for what firefighters can be sent to do because they're, you know, very resource intensive resource to the community right so you can't send firefighters to all of the things. Right so, so we got firefighters, we got ambulances full of paramedics, and then we got cops. And the general purpose person we send to handle a crisis is the cop a person with a gun, which is, you know, patently absurd and creates all of the bad incentives we're talking about. So the actual proper things that we ask police to do. Like, we do in fact need homicide detectives. Right, that that's a legitimate function and, and in, you know, my abolitionist post policing dreams right there are still homicide detectives they're just completely separated from the legacy of policing as we have it. So, you have to think about like the whole of the system like we're displacing a lot of what we ask police to do. We're displacing a little bit of what we ask firefighters to do. And we're opening up a bunch of spaces of things that should have been done all along when we don't have a resource that's appropriate at all. And so we resort to these wrong resources. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so, so I think for me, you know, to agree with with the substance of nearly all that you said Jonathan I mean, I think for me, you know, part of what's exciting about lime coats as an idea and and as a conversation is it makes possible, I think what what for many people is not currently possible, which is even to reckon with the very sentence, abolish the police, right. And, and, and so part of our problem is that, you know, even those of us who are most in tune and sympathetic to if not an outright advocate of abolitionist ideas, like, cannot imagine a world. Without police. Right. And certainly, we're not going to get there by simply uttering phrases like that, right. I mean, like none of us are so naive. But, but on the other hand, we're certainly not going to get there. If it is literally possible, impossible for most humans to imagine the state of affairs that we think is the desirable state of affairs, right. And of course, you know, as you just as you just elegantly did Jonathan, like the other part of the abolitionist, even just the abolitionist phrase, but you know, it's intent. You know, needn't be a complete erasure of all of the things that we consider to be policing because like a lot of ideas that we think are corrupt and beyond corrupt corrosive and destructive and so on. It's not everything in those ideas or institutions that are corrupt and it's not nothing that is is worth preserving right and so. But when one has to, you know, I am when when thinking about these things recently, you know, I found myself, you know, following in John, Jonathan's footsteps on the design fictional trajectory, thinking about an alarm alive action role playing game. You know, that sort of takes us at the point of a departure this conversation. And I was trying to sort of toy with projecting people imaginatively and behaviorally into a space that was that was post policing and like, how do we even get there. And so the premise of this game is that the American truth and reconciliation commissions on policing have just finished. So, again, like as as Jonathan did and as as you know design and visionary fiction sort of holds out to us. You know we use enough of the furniture of reality that's familiar, right, an illusion to truth and reconciliation well we know that that's a real thing we know that that's a thing that really happened in a place. So we know that it's possible. We don't know all of what it did, or what all of what it's left behind but like it's, it has a plausibility. And so attaching this this this sort of plausibility to a very today seems like a fanciful projection. Invites us and invites others into a space where at least we can start to even play at behaving as if and I think you know the conversations that become possible, and perhaps only possible, if we can bring people into spaces like that is part of part of what's worth, you know, not just, you know, creating more line quotes like fictions but actually building on these kinds of fictions. I really want to underline because I love that a lot and part of what I love about it is a few years ago I went through a little phase of being fascinated by truth and reconciliation processes and and doing some homework and, of course, I started out with this very romantic romantic view of what truth and reconciliation processes had achieved and once one digs the dismal truth is kind of dismal that wow that that process is really interesting and does achieve some things but it kind of does not achieve what the romantic image makes you want to hope for, but I think that that tension and frustration is actually a fruitful place to do that kind of imagining exercise, right of starting from a thing that is plausible and connects to something in the world, and that has problems so it's not a utopian fiction. It's, it's, it's a it's a grubby frustrating fiction in the way that it would need to be in order for it to really be useful, even though part of what we're doing is sort of like breaking out and expanding the imaginal space, which people can conceive. So y'all see that I've been annotating and linking while you're talking and weaving a bunch of other stuff in some of which we can go back to but but it's I have one little other thing stuck in my brain. Good. I have a line code ethos. Which is strangely, I find myself thinking about Superman. And Superman is like there's scholarship about like what makes a good Superman story. And one of the core ideas is Superman wants to save everybody. Superman can't do it. And there's a school of thought which says the best Superman stories are ones in which the focus is that the person Superman is trying to save is the villain. Superman wants to save everybody. And the inherent challenge of that. And the way in which, you know, he is a fantastical figure makes that challenge approachable. Right, because Superman is also, you know, he's, he's a Bodhisattva. Right. He's, he's liberated from fear and attachment because he has very little to fear is invulnerable. Right. He's invulnerable. And so he can enter into danger with fearlessness and the conceit of Superman the hopeful thing is well then if you were in fact equipped with that invulnerability, you two would be liberated to be altruistic and good and dedicate those energies to supporting Superman. And I think that that is connected to the ethos of danger and fearlessly facing it that is part of like what we're talking about with a kind of a line code ethos, which contrasts with, you know, the warrior cop business, in which you have these agents of the state who are armed and fearful and empowered to react violently in fear. I have a long running. I'm sorry, I'm sort of like holding the floor just another minute. I have a long running Twitter thread about bad policing. And, and, and I say the same thing in each tweet where I share a bad story. And it ends with the legitimacy of liberal democracy is at stake. Because from like a Hobbes Leviathan standpoint, right, the purpose of the state is to be the only legitimate actor to use force, thereby settling the tendency for other questions to be resolved through force. To use force, and that is made morally legitimate by the state, which has that capacity for force, being bound by laws and rights and limitations and democratic accountability. And the worm at the heart of American policing now is that police are not democratically accountable. In fact, they're the opposite of that. Right, they are this rogue force which cannot be reigned in by democratic processes, they are not accountable. They are less accountable than ordinary citizens are, rather than more accountable, which is what they should be as part of the compact of their nationalism, which again is part of why like I'm an abolitionist and like we have to sever the relationship with that legacy you have to not call it policing. But whether you're that kind of radical or not, the fundamental principle remains the same, right, whatever interventions you do and that applies to lime coats who do not have violence in their toolkit is they have to be accountable in a profound sense for their action and and inherit the liberal conception of you know universalist obligation, right, like Superman they have to try to save everybody. I love all of that. I think, you know, one of the things that I want to sort of build on there is, you know, I think the, the things, one of the things we have to reckon with which is, you know, certainly far from complicated is the connection of policing and the legitimacy of law, the legitimacy of political authority. You know, the Hobbesian, you know reference dear to my heart because Leviathan is like for me one of one of the most important of our historical texts in the Western tradition around around these things and, and of course, you know, you know, there are two really powerful things in the Hobbes, you know, which which which are important to sort of recollect and Jonathan, you know, has pulled on the thread of one which is, you know, the, the idea that that words without the sword have no strength to to bind us to the context that's, you know, that's the idea. And so this, this, this rationalized authority is meant to to wield this, this threatened power, right, to compel. It's meant to be our power, right, because the sovereign is meant not to be the individual who wears the crown, but the person empowered by the system of authority, right. Lots of that, you know, is broken down and lots of it is corrupted, you know, and are dealing with it. And, and one of the things that came to mind, you know, Jonathan when you were talking about all of that is one of the big things that's crept into police ethos. This is is another piece of law and common law, you know, which has come to be expressed, you know, in in our law laws of self defense, namely the strength stand your ground principle, right. I think this is, you know, both where a lot of state sanctioned in the police context but also non state sanctioned violence occurs and is anchored around right this idea of, hey, I don't have to move. I have a right to stand where I am and, and you know, we raise that to the level of of a metaphorical right, I mean, not just the physical ground on which I stand on but my immovable right to my immovable ideas, you know, In fact, it's not just to be immovable with the right to escalate. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, well said. But, but I mean, I think that there is something really important to dig on there right because what's bound up in stand your ground is, is our, our ideas about property. And about what we have a right to defend and, and to your point, rightly, what we're, what we're entitled to escalate should we feel sufficiently that our property, however, you know, constructed here. You know, we have have the right to defend even unto the death. You know, historically, we have evolved in law these, these, you know, very weak subjective tests which can now alluded to in the, you know, you alluded to Jerry when you were talking about the whole bulletproof, basic concept, right, is, is that the only way to eliminate threats in absolute terms is to literally, you know, obliterate the threats. And should you feel sufficiently threatened, you apparently ought to be authorized to do that. But, you know, I think what was really important to sort of, you know, that we're getting to write is like these are a lot of big, you know, important furniture in our brain ideas that we are all deeply attached to. Our sense of our own personal rights and our own personal integrity and so, you know, like the lot, what I'm saying is that the logic, you know, that one has to let go of to even start to have certain kind of conversations is considerable. You know, a lot of deconstruction. And a couple things. And, and we're sort of asking people to hit undo on a whole series of things that are buried really quite deep inside of our institutions norms assumptions, etc. That are mutually reinforcing and kind of layered in pretty thick now and part of the reason for the frustration of activists trying to actually change policing, or actually get rid of racism is that these systems actually need to be dismantled shifted around. And in the process, people's minds have to shift so that the new system actually like fits better. And then they'll be like, Oh, okay, I see that that that works. This long slow kind of changes the it's the long arc of history, unfortunately, I have to point out, I was going to go like 90 minutes by somebody booked me for the top of the hour on a call that's really important to have a hard stop at the top of the hour. But I'm happy to hit resume if you all want to later so you know let's let's debrief on email or wherever but then happy to pick this up again. Yeah, I would be happy. Yeah, and I just want to chime in on something I saw there. The hashtag pledged to listen, you know, I think, you know, what I know that one of the things that that I thought, you know, many more times than once in seeing the me to hashtag, you know, was was a hashtag. Right. Because there has not been. We have not constructed an answer to me to that I mean, but believe all women as is, you know, perhaps, you know, an example but to me, sort of insufficiently puts puts an individual on the line for, you know, sort of acknowledging an accountability. And, and again, thinking about the ways in which, you know, we can sort of build build a culture of listening. You know, certainly, you know, listen before you answer, which, you know, has become like a very antique notion. You know, and too many of our quote unquote listening for, you know, I think this is like the thing that is so horrendously bad about clubhouse is that things that are called conversations. Are in, are in fact the worst kind of podium from which people, you know, sort of command others to listen, because they have no choice in the very architecture. I coined the term do a log to concurrent monologues to people talking about each other. There you go. But again, you know, I mean, in that, you know, I mean, like as we learn over and over again in too many contexts, especially those which people are talking past each other and no one's hearing each other. People have a deep need to be heard, and people feel deeply unheard all the time, and we can think what we want about whether people ought to or not feel unheard. So this objective feeling and to deny it, whatever its content is dangerous. Because we don't pay attention to reality when we make those denials and that may feel morally satisfying but I don't think it leads us to good places. I don't think it leads us to what we want. Let me ask a couple questions that I haven't thrown in the pot yet just as fodder for thinking which is do like our line coats a previously recruited body of humans who then travel to emergencies and drop in like smoke jumpers. Is lime coating a role anybody in a situation on the ground can pick up and say, oh, I'm calling myself a lime coat. And that means I've just learned up on being an enlightened witness and peel principles and a bunch of other stuff. And I'm taking advantage of these free and open source kits of resources and other kinds of stuff that I can get down. And I understand that if I run into a situation, I need to do these sorts of things. But, but basically on the job training with coaches and support from other lime coats who've been through it before who are available in real time on discord fricking servers, or whatever but you know, like what we're doing these days is like that that's kind of how communities help each support forums on discord or whatever, and community building but but then, but then this, if this is a contagious idea, then lime coats show up all over the place pre trained. And when an emergency happens it's like okay are there any lime coats in the room. There are people that bought the the yellow cap the baseball cap that that the hive is yellow baseball cap put it on and say yes, I am. Yeah, you know, here, here, I have a point of view around this but okay, you go first. Yeah, yeah, and we'll have to for your sake Jerry take us to take in for landing. I love this idea there's there certainly way way more to talk about. But here's what I love about the idea of of, you know, the scenario you describe. You know, there are all kinds of situations of which you both have probably seen very many in Portland over the last couple of years, in which it would be very powerful to see a very visible, very numerous force. Enter the fray and visibly, in effect, say no violence will happen here today, because we are here to see it. And we will prevent it, one way or another, like that. That's an incredibly hopeful idea at any rate. So there is in fact an organization which wears hive is lime baseball caps which does exactly that thing, the National Lawyers Guild. The National Lawyers Guild. Yes. Wow. I think that's the right name for them. They are lawyers who go to street activist events mostly. Wearing hive is t shirts and baseball caps, and are like hey if somebody needs a lawyer. Yeah, something goes wrong. Yeah, I'm over here here and we're missing what is happening. And we are aware of the legal implications. So that's actually a thing that exists. Actually, one of the tragic bellwethers actually here in Portland, having been at street events with the NLG showing up is in recent years they've been wearing helmets instead of baseball caps, because they were genuinely afraid of getting shot. The situations were too dangerous. Yeah. That's fascinating. Thank you. Wow. It's completely cool. So I've added all those to role models. I've got a bunch now of role models for lime coats from the white helmets we talked about over dinner to this millions of conversations idea that led to the pledge to listen thing to a bunch of others so they're in here and I just paste it into our chat. The link to this this note right here in my brain so you can play with it, and we can keep talking. Any other thoughts right now. Thank you. Thank you for the time and and the conversation, both of you, but, and thanks for the offer to pick it up again. Let's, let's let Jonathan and I debrief some and, and hit you back. I love that. Thank you both. That was like really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Have a great day. More soon. Yep.