 Good afternoon everyone. I hope everyone is enjoying the conference as much as I am. My name is Ramito Gonzalez. I'm with the Center City Development and Operations Department with the City of San Antonio. We have the luxury and privilege of being tasked with the redevelopment and activation of downtown San Antonio. And for everyone who calls this place their home, you know how great our downtown is. The fantastic assets that we have, the Alamo, the Riverwalk, our fantastic cultural assets, our beautiful historic building stock, it makes it a fantastic place to visit. Our goal, our mission is to make it a fantastic place to live, to make it a fantastic place to work, to spend time with your family downtown, not just for our visitors, which we're always happy to see. But we want to bring the residents back. We want to bring the locals back. And so we've made some great strides in the past few years at that mission. The challenge though, which will be discussed in this segment, is how do you make a place that is that livable, that walkable, and make it accessible to everyone? Make it a place that is affordable. Too many times we find that it is a kind of either or set scenario. It's either walkable or it's affordable. And so I have the pleasure of introducing today a man who's figured it out. For over 20 years, Robert Chapman here has been developing exactly that kind of concept, mostly in the southeastern part of the United States and Arizona. He's the founder and managing director of traditional neighborhood development partners, as well as a number of other enterprises that are focused on real estate development and finance. He's also one of the original signers of the Charter for the Congress of New Urbanism. He still serves on the board today as well as a number of other boards and commissions that are focused on the principles of new urbanism. So with that, help me welcome Robert Chapman. Thank you, sir. It's really great to be in Texas, really one of my very favorite places. I guess I've been here 15 or 20 times, but my ancestors are from Texas on both sides of the family. And at one point I went to the state capitol in Austin to research one of my ancestors who had served in the legislature. And I wanted to know what he tried to do when he was there. And they didn't have a lot of information, but they showed me that he had introduced two acts or two bills. And the first bill that he introduced was that workers in Texas had to be paid in money, meaning they had to get paid in money. I don't know how else they were going to get paid, but I guess it could have been store credit at the mill or something like that. And the other law that he introduced was that merchants had to have scales that were accurate. And I went on and looked in the record and both bills were almost unanimously voted down. Nobody voted for those in that day. I guess it was just too liberal. But being here today, I'm totally encouraged. You guys are completely on the right path. I mean, I've heard everything that I believe about new urbanism and smart growth and walkable urbanism. And you've got the right information. It's really a matter of implementing it. One of the first things I heard when I visited Texas the first time was if a Texan allows you to entertain them, you have a friend for life. Well, it's going to be hard for me to entertain you more than what I'm doing now. And I think they were really talking about inviting you to a barbecue or having dinner or something. But if you ever get to North Carolina, we're in Durham and we'd love to see you. There's nothing I enjoy more than touring people in our town, which is really bounced back from pretty... Well, I don't want to be critical of my own town, but it's very alive now. It is one of the hot places to be. And it's fun to be working there. I reworked my slideshow a little bit in the last three hours because I was very impressed by the first speaker who was talking about the bikeways and greenways in Seattle. And I wanted to share a little of my belief and experience in that regard before I got into the hardcore development. And before that, even I wanted to talk about something which we'll go ahead and put it up, which is called tactical urbanism, which is what can individuals do now to begin the process of creating change. And tactical urbanism is short-term actions for long-term change. And they're applied to what William H. White described as the huge reservoir of space yet untapped by imagination. Imagination is really the limiting factor. And here's some great examples of tactical urbanism that have happened around the country. These are all in a book which is called tactical urbanism published by Island Press, turning a parking lot into a town square, closing a city street. This is Harold Square in New York City and making it car-free. The first effort at Build a Better Block in Dallas. And actually getting out at night, and you saw some other examples of this from Seattle with your paint line marker and fixing your street. Paint's pretty cheap. This all leads to something called the walkable city. And a friend of mine named Jeff Speck wrote a book called The Walkable City. And he talks about the benefits of a walkable place. And I'm going to, if you'll bear with me, I'm going to really switch over and read something that I put together about this. The economic advantages of a walkable city are described by Jeff by saying that many cities ask the same question. How can we attract new jobs, new residents and entrepreneurial talent? And how can we keep our children from leaving? The answer, of course, is to provide the sort of environment that these people want. Recent research clearly shows that the two largest generations in American history, the baby boomers, 51 to 69 years old, and the millennials, 18 to 34 years old, have a growing and significant preference for walkable urban places where today the demand exceeds supply. Cities offering walkable urban places will be at an advantage by attracting millennials and baby boomers to live, work, walk, shop, play and become citizens. Building walkable places is better for our economy. Epidemiological. I saw a display outside from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, which has been running a project for about the last 10 years. It's headquartered in Chapel Hill, North Carolina called Active Living by Design. And their mission as a company is to improve the health and healthcare of all Americans. And they think a huge part of that is the way we've built our cities. Quite simply, walking in walkable urban places are healthy for us, and suburban drive-only places are unhealthy for us. Evidence from the Center for Disease Control and many other research groups is clear. More Americans than ever are obese. If the trend continues, the youngest generation of Americans will likely live shorter lives than their parents for the first time in our history. Living in walkable places is better for our health. Environmental. The carbon footprint per capita in walkable urban places is lowest, and in suburban and ex-urban places the highest, according to the EPA and other studies. Living in walkable places is better for our environment. When will people choose to walk? According to Jeff in walkable city, only when the walk is one useful. What makes a walk useful? Ample housing, offices, shopping, entertainment, schools, churches, recreation, parking price correctly, and other walkers. Two, safe. When crime sometimes is a concern, for most pedestrians, the bigger safety threat, excuse me, while crime is sometimes a concern, for most pedestrians, the bigger safety threat is motor vehicles, often speeding. The key to making a street feel safe is keeping cars, trucks, and buses at reasonable speeds and protecting pedestrians from them. This is achieved by meeting the following ten criteria. One, a network of many small blocks. Two, the proper number of driving lanes. Lanes of proper width, 10 feet or less is safest, avoiding one-way streets. Limited use of turn lanes, avoiding swooping street geometries, including bike lanes, parked cars between traffic and pedestrians, continuous shade trees, and replacing unnecessary signals with four-way stops or roundabouts. Three, comfortable. Pedestrians feel comfortable when there is a sense of enclosure created by the buildings on both sides of the street. Urbanists refer to it as an outdoor room. Ideally, buildings are at least as tall as the width of the space between them. This comfort is created by streets shaped by buildings, no exposed surface parking lots, parking behind the buildings along an alley, street trees, and rare curb cuts. Number four, interesting. There needs to be something interesting to look at for people to find walking rewarding and entertaining. How did you achieve this? Through windows and doors that open retail storefronts displaying activity, no blank walls, no exposed parking garages, avoiding repetition, no single architectural solution should occupy more than 100 feet of sidewalk if possible. Here's another list. I collected this about 15 years ago from a traffic engineer named Rick Hall, who does a lot of the new urbanist projects around the country, starting with Seaside. And he presented this as a David Letterman Top 10 list, but I'll just present them all at once. Number 10 on the list is narrow streets, nine street trees, eight low traffic volume, seven sidewalks, which really surprises a lot of people. Most people would have put sidewalks first. But I think Rick has a good argument that sidewalks are not the most important thing. More important would be interconnected streets, on-street parking, lower traffic speed, mixed land use, buildings, fronting streets, and the most important is small blocks. I know that's a problem for a lot of towns in Texas. I've seen some towns here where the blocks are 1,000 feet or 2,000 feet on the side. I think they were designed so that everybody could have a full-size farm behind their house or something. This is a study that you can download from the, you can Google it. It's a really interesting study that was done by Peter Swift, who's a new urbanist traffic engineer out of Longmont, Colorado. He analyzed 20,000 traffic accidents and correlated them to two other types of events. One was the number of injuries, the relationship between the number of injuries and the widths of the street. The other was the time saved by the fire department and emergency responders because their streets were wider. And what was determined was that a 40-mile-an-hour street had twice the number of injury accidents as a 20-mile-an-hour street, that on a roadway with an average travel speed of 40 miles-an-hour, a reduction of 2 miles-an-hour, 5%, reduced crashes by 10%, serious injury crashes by 14%, and fatal crashes by 19%. This is an even scarier chart, and this is something that was talked about by the first speaker, is what happens if you get hit by a car going 40 miles-an-hour. You have an 80% chance of dying. If it's 30 miles-an-hour, your odds are doubled that you won't die. And at 20 miles-an-hour, you've got a 95% chance of surviving. One of the biggest challenges I have as a developer, probably the biggest challenge I have as a developer, is the international fire code. According to the international fire code, there's no such thing as a street, or an avenue, or a boulevard, or a lane, or an alley. The only thing that exists is a fire equipment access road. And all fire equipment access roads in the world must have 20 feet clear within the parking zone for fire trucks. This particular graphic shows that, in fact, you can get away just fine with parking on both sides and 24 feet clear. And actually, if it lives for its sake, I don't think anybody would have any problem with the fire truck putting its outriggers out and crushing those two cars. But we can't build a 24-foot street. Our minimum is now 34 feet. And we will have twice as many fatal crashes on a 34-foot-wide street as we will on a 24-foot-wide street, based on all the research that we've seen. The CNU has made it one of its main objectives this year to reform the fire code. And I know they've worked with the fire chief in San Antonio and gotten good results. But a lot of the other fire chiefs are not in any way interested in narrow streets. They want big, wide streets. And unfortunately, as the lady from Seattle was saying, they're the ones who have to go to the, often are the first responders, to these terrible accidents that happen because of high speed. This is something real quick I want to run through, road diets. These are some animations done by a friend of mine named Steve Price, who shows what you can do to a really crummy old four-lane or anywhere in the country to turn it into a place and make it safer for cars. And I'm just going to run through these one at a time very quickly because they're all animations of how you turn a high-speed thoroughfare into a boulevard or a street or a place that people want to be in. This is the kind of thing that good zoning, good development regulations makes possible and even causes. And later on I'll show you some examples of where it's been causative. But these are all street diet programs where you're turning four-laners into two-laners or three-laners, adding bike lanes, adding transit across the country. And you end up with a place that's more delightful and safer and more desirable and the real estate is more valuable. And people want to be there instead of fleeing to go somewhere else. So, I mentioned CNU. I'm on the board of the Congress for the New Urbanism. We had our annual Congress this year in Dallas. And next year or this spring it's going to be in Detroit. I highly, highly recommend that everyone here log on to CNU.org. As soon as you can, look at the new website. I've taken some screenshots from the new website. But it is a wealth of information. And the thing that CNU has going for it is that it really is the only national organization that involves all the disciplines. The point of CNU is the common good. Unfortunately, to some extent, the point of the AIA is to promote the architectural and profession and protect it. Certainly the point of the ULI is to help developers make more money. The engineers groups are to promote the interest of the engineers. The APA, the Planning Association, which many of you are involved with, is focused on its profession. But CNU includes members of all these professions. It's got about nearly 2,000 members now. And typically between 1,500 and 2,000 come to the annual Congress. And I very much invite you to come. The picture there is of a project that I was involved with in North Carolina. My partner, Bob Isner, was the developer called Southside. And it is an amazing turnabout. It was an abandoned vacant land near a railway switching yard. And it has now not only become desirable and affordable, to my knowledge it's the most racially integrated community, new community ever built in America. It's right at the same demographic as Guilford County, North Carolina, which is 50-50 between white and African American and other minorities. So these are from the CNU website. Please look at it now to the main thing we came to talk about, which is being a developer. Here are the things I've been involved with. We built a new neighborhood for Duke University. It was affordable. We sold houses for $99 a square foot and $101 a square foot and $140 a square foot market. There were no limits on the resale appreciation of those houses. And so those houses are now worth $300 or $250 a square foot because we didn't have enough. We were only able to build 65 units. People go there. It's right next to Duke's East Campus. And they say, well, I went where you asked me to go and I got there and there weren't any new houses. And that really made me feel great because that was our whole goal. I have a theory which nobody else in the world, I think, agrees with, but I think it's true, which is good architecture is free. Putting the window in the wrong place costs exactly the same amount as putting it in the right place. It's about balance and harmony and proportion. Having a bad detail on a house uses the same amount of material as a good detail. So it's a knowledge-based development. This is a project we did out in Arkansas for a small college called Hendricks College in Conway, Arkansas. They wanted to have a college town next to their campus and we were able to talk the state of Arkansas into building the first two roundabouts on a U.S. highway that they'd ever done. Now there are hundreds of roundabouts in Arkansas. They've gone roundabout nuts out there. One of the things on this picture at the lower roundabout was to get from the campus to the gym. The mayor insisted that we have a tunnel. Generally, I hate tunnels because they generally are scary and they generally smell bad and people just don't like being in them. But I was out in Denver for the CNU that was in Denver a few years ago and saw a tunnel that an artist named Christopher Janney had created an experience called the Harmonic Passage. We hired Christopher Janney to come in and with sound and light create a puzzle that you can solve by pushing buttons. So far, 124 people in the last eight years have solved the puzzle. It has something to do with a nearly extinct woodpecker in Arkansas. I don't know the exact answer to the question, but anyway, our project made the front page of the New York Times above the fold. Those are student dorms. But downstairs we have a Panera Bread and a really great pizza place and a bank and a bookstore. One of the challenges was to hide a super wallmark that was on the edge of the property and restore a creek. And we were lucky enough to get Southwestern energy from Houston to put their regional headquarters here, build a building which ultimately the college will own, and then have them restore what was going to be, according to the original engineering plan, an LA River, a 100 foot wide concrete lined ditch. We turned it back into a wetland with native species and it has two classrooms in the wetland. Good detailing, reclaimed wood from the... reclaimed cypress from the bottom of the Arkansas River, native stone, recycled brick. Houses where you can stand on the sidewalk and speak with somebody sitting on their front porch. This is something we did in Durham. It's now called the Innovation District. The first building has been built. This is one in Chapel Hill which is called Windmore and we had the only low-income housing tax credit financed apartments in a high-end neighborhood ever done. We had 100 apartments right inside the development. You can't tell which ones are the low-income or the affordable units. We also had about 60 units which are small houses which the town had the idea that that was their contribution to affordability was to require a certain number of houses that were 1,000 square feet or less, and that turned out to be very popular. I have a friend who lives there and I said, what do the people who bought the expensive houses there think about living in the neighborhood with the people who are occupying the low-income housing tax credit units? He said, well, you know, Bob, we call them neighbors. That was a pretty good answer as far as I was concerned. This is a project I did in Florida. It was all affordable, 100% affordable to people making below 60% of income which was made possible by being able to issue tax-exempt bonds. Our first phase, which is the phase I did, was 434 units. We set the all-time record for the Orlando area with 65 move-ins a month, and we had a 90% retention rate at the end of the first year in a market which typically had to replace every tenant every 11 months. And so it was about a better house for less money in a better location. This is some student housing out in Arkansas at a university called Harding. And this is the project I mentioned in Greensboro called Southside. Those are live-work units where you can have your own business in the apartment. You can live on the upper two floors. You can live on all three floors and not have a business. Or you can live on the top floor and rent the second floor, whatever you want. This is called a flex house. It's a very good idea, except for people who want a business that depends on walk-in traffic. Because they're typically in the core of a neighborhood and you don't have the volume of traffic to support restaurants, but it's great if you have an insurance company or an advertising agency. And for some reason, they end up being incredibly popular with hair salons. This is a new project we're doing in downtown Greensboro called Union Square at South Elm. This is a master plan that we did for Duke University for 120 acres between their two campuses. Duke has a West campus, which is, when I was at school there, was all men and an East campus, which used to be all women. They're now fully co-ed, but the in-between was an old mill village. And gradually they put some very substandard student housing there and a few other leftover odds and ends. And so our idea was to build a whole new city town there. This is something Duke has asked us to do recently, which is to do a pocket neighborhood on their campus. This is designed by Ross Chapin of Whitby Island, Washington. And Ross talks about something called the Scale of Sociability, which is 12 to 15 units facing a common green, which is all about neighborliness and walkability. This is the most fun thing that we've been involved with lately is buying old properties in downtown Durham that were, well, when we got started, they were all abandoned. Now we can't afford to buy them anymore. But this was a little Sinclair station. It became a coffee shop called Coco Cinnamon, which somewhere ranks coffee shops. I don't know who it is, but they were ranked the eighth best coffee shop in America by the coffee shop ranking website. And anyway, it's a great thing. Rain or shine, people are there. Across the street was another gas station. This was a golf station. This was recently listed in Southern Living Magazine as one of the 10 coolest places in the South. I guarantee you that nobody who ever went here, ever looked at Southern Living Magazine. But anyway, they wanted to be affiliated with this place. This is a... It started out as a 7-up bottling company, and it's become Full Steam Brewery, which has started a brewery avalanche in our town. They were the first. We now have, I think, six or seven. And we just got our first two distilleries, one of which is in our neighborhood here. We're trying to counteract that. Here's another bar. This is a music hall in an old Chrysler Plymouth, in an old Lincoln Mercury dealership called Motorco. A 1930s hotdog stand was revived and reopened, and people love it. This is a building that we have that is used for events. And we try to counteract all these distilleries and bars and breweries in the neighborhood by having a very successful CrossFit gym. And so people can stand around drinking, watching the people running up and down the streets. Anyway, yoga, a pottery kiln and display store, a legitimate theater, which does mostly new plays that are never, they're usually premieres, and a pretty amazing place. A recording studio and guitar sales shop. And the thing that got this all started was my wife, who is in the back, started a charter school, and most of the parents were very leery of coming to this part of Durham. But having those 300, or initially was 150 parents a day come in to pick up their kids and drop off their kids, created traffic, which helped the first restaurant get started, and once that happened, it just took off. This is a group that I'm a member of called the National Town Builders Association. There are about 40 developers. We have a couple of people from Texas Senate. And we travel all over the country visiting other projects. I took these pictures a year and a half ago in Chattanooga, our fall roundtable, and this was a master plan that a company called Dover Colon Associates did on the west side or east side. My Chattanooga geography is not very good. Away from the river, and they brought out the master plan and then we walked around and saw that everything on the master plan had been built in about a 12-year period. Just an amazing turnaround. In fact, that's Victor Dover right there who had not come back to Chattanooga since the charrette, and he was blown away. And the most important thing, the thing they wanted more than all was a neighborhood grocery store, and that had just opened the day we were there in Zo's Market. And it was focused on fresh food and locally sourced produce and locally sourced healthy food. But these are some of the first units there. These are some other ones, all different architectural styles, very cool restaurants. This was up in Louisville, just a couple of pictures in a part of Louisville called Nulu. And our group was meeting with the developer there, and we saw this sign that said, before I die, and our group said, before I die, I want to build towns. So I know that was one of our guys wrote that. And the other one said, before I die, I want to finish Midtown Bryant, Arkansas, which is a new urbanist development there. They were into the gas station thing, just like we are, and this was a pizza place in an old gas station. And they had one of the oddest things I've ever seen in front of it, which was two cars that were hooked up to hydraulic jacks that were involved in a head-on collision at the rate of one millimeter per day, or hour or something. So after three or four years, these things were going to be completely crushed into two cubes. But you could sort of hear them creak a little bit as you watch this. This is a sort of an interesting idea. This is down in Atlanta, a two million square foot warehouse called Ponce Center, now called Ponce City Market. Sears and Roebuck built this warehouse, and they wanted to convert it into a neat place. And the very first thing that was done in the process, which I thought was amazing, was to build a community living room in a screen house, no air conditioning, just fans, with free Wi-Fi and really good coffee. And the neighborhood completely adopted this Ponce Center project. That's a model of Ponce Center when it's completed, and the little corner in the lower left is where we showed a picture. And it's done. I don't particularly like the style of it. I've got a friend who's an architect, and he said, well, they did a really great job of post-apocalyptic grunge. They're getting the highest rent in all of Atlanta. So, anyway. I'm switching gears now. This is something that's meaningful to me as a developer, which is why is it so hard to raise money for walkable urbanism. And Chris Lineberger came up with an analysis a number of years ago that there are 19 standard real estate products. I hate for people to think of real estate products. You really ought to think about places people live or places people love or places people want to be. But Chris said 17 of them are fundamentally sprawl producing, and these are the standard real estate products. Offices build a suit, industrial build a suit, industrial speculative warehouse with 20-foot, 8-foot clear span, hotel limited service, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I put in yellow the ones that are not fundamentally sprawl producing, which would be high-density infill apartments, and then miscellaneous urban entertainment centers. Those didn't really go over, but nothing else is eligible for pension fund or REIT investment. And that's one of the reasons we have to have a fine-grain, organic approach to walkable urbanism. This is a neat chart. It's a total rethinking of the planning world, which used to be focused entirely on use, use-based zoning. This is the transect, which is based on compatibility, context, things being harmonious and working together within these transect zones. Here's some examples of very low-scale walkable urbanism that had been done by my friends in the new urbanist movement, ION in South Carolina. This one is, I have forgotten. I think this is Baldwin Park in Orlando. This is more of ION. This is Habersham in Buford, South Carolina. This is Vickery in Cumming, Georgia. More of Vickery. This is Hale Village in Gainesville, Florida. This is Burkdale in Cornelius, North Carolina. Now, leading from that, let me just stop for a second and focus on affordable. There are three ways. I'll go to the next picture. How do we create affordable development? I think there are just three or four things that need to be done. One is, we need to reduce the cost of entitlements. We need to make it possible. In California, the impact fees alone add $400 a month to the cost of a house. $40,000 impact fees. That translates into $400 and either certainly does in rent, and you can say that it does in mortgage payment. The point is, create affordable housing by building more housing. Pretty simple. The second thing is to reduce land cost. Sometimes zoning has unintended consequences. The city of Durham, where I live, just upzoned the entire downtown core to no height limit. You can build a, I don't know, what's the tallest building in the world? You can build that now there. Guess what the person who owns that lot now thinks their lot is worth? It's no longer a four-story walkable urbanism opportunity because they're thinking, well, I could put a 30-story building on this land. So it's a tricky process. The third and also very significant is reducing the cost of financing. We shouldn't be using expensive money to build long-term affordable assets. We should be using inexpensive money, and when the government can borrow money for less than 2%, the government could credit enhance loans for 2%, which would cut the price of occupancy by a couple of hundred dollars a month on a typical rental unit or a typical house. So if you had no cost land by turning, let's say, a city surface parking lot into affordable housing, that would reduce your cost of construction or delivery by $20,000 in our town where a pad for a multifamily unit is now worth $20,000. I don't know what it is here. I'm guessing it's probably 10. It's more of a normal number. So that would reduce your monthly rent by $100. If you could get lower cost financing, you could knock another $100, $150, $200 off of it and then use intelligent approaches to design and make it possible for people to walk and not need cars and not need structured parking. I think just by tweaking the system, you can deliver houses and places to live for $300 or $400 a month less cost. And if you look at what that would do in terms of percentage allocated to housing costs, plus if you put it in the center of the town where people could walk or take Uber, I have two employees now who don't own cars. They use Uber for everything and bicycles and walking. So if you did those things, you could solve a lot of the affordable housing problems without resorting to complicated things like low income housing tax credits, which seem to me to be better at creating billionaires than they are at really creating quality housing. And there probably are eight or nine or 10 billionaires in America now who got it all from that program, which is basically free money from the government. So if you learn how to do it, why not take it, I guess is their idea. More power to them, I guess. But I think it could be much more efficient if we had low interest rate direct loans that got repaid. Okay, these are some more examples of what could be done in places like places that we were shown pictures of this morning that are right here in San Antonio. It starts with the road diet. It starts with a quality form-based code zoning program that makes it of right to do good things and hard to do bad things. So I'm just going to scroll through all of these pictures because it's the same message in each one, which is that none of this is rocket science. It's all about figuring out what kind of places you really enjoy being in and taking a tape measure and copying them and then doing the same thing in the place that you're working with. This is the Berkeley Unified School District Transportation Yard. This is their other transportation yard. Turning these from bus parking lots where they had to put 10-foot-high chain link fences around them, which is not very friendly place to be into a place that people love being in a town that's terribly constrained for affordable housing. This is one I really like. This actually happened if you've been to Miami lately. It's called Wynwood, and all of these one and two-story warehouses have become very cool art galleries and restaurants and hip places. Now, here's a real place in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina called Johnny Dodds Boulevard. The city there adopted a form-based code and a completely new zoning set of requirements, and this is what they were shown would end up happening, and it is already happening. In the very far distance, you might see the new bridge over to Charleston, and in fact, I'll get to my last picture here, that's the same street. I took that picture a year and a half ago after that form-based code was created and they've achieved what they set out to do, so it's a matter of knowing what you want and making it easy for people to do the right thing. That's my presentation. I'd like to go to questions at this point, if any. I read an article recently in The Economist that said instead of taxing improvements as much, we should tax the land to keep people from sort of hoarding it in the cities. That's an idea that's been around a long time, and as far as I know, there is one city in America that does it that way, which is Pittsburgh, and there are very good results. It has a lot of benefits because it does not discourage people from developing. It encourages people to develop, and it discourages keeping beautiful, great locations as vacant surface parking lots, and Pittsburgh is totally sold on it. There is an institute in Cambridge Mass that promotes that. There's a philosopher, maybe somebody here knows his name, who came up with this idea. Anyway, I'll think of it in just a minute, but the idea has been around about 150 years, and we all could just talk to Pittsburgh and see why they think it's such a good idea. Anything else? Sir? I think it was Wynmore that had the low-income housing tax credit component. Can you talk a little bit about what drove the inclusion of those apartments within the larger master plan? Was it mandated? Was it a business decision? No. Wynmore was developed under a, I said Chapel Hill, and it's in the Chapel Hill mail post office zone. It's actually within the jurisdiction of Carborough, North Carolina, which is a little town that touches Chapel Hill. They had adopted an ordinance which was wonderful called the Village Mixed Use Ordinance. It was based on a book written by a man named Randall Arendt called Crossroads Village Town City or something like that. And it talked about placemaking, and it was wonderful. And we thought, well, this is what we want to do. And we were the first people that ever followed that ordinance, and it turns out nobody else has done it since. Because it took about three years to get it approved. Right next door to us, somebody went to their surveyor and said, I'd like you to draw a plan that will be approved of right immediately. And before we even started the first houses there, the other developer was under construction and made us feel like we must be really stupid. But we were trying to do the right thing, and so we proposed as part of the Village Mixed Use Plan that we should have inclusionary housing. It was not a requirement. We sold the property to a large developer from Charlotte named Crossland. And then they went to the North Carolina Housing Finance Agency and got the allocation for the 100 units of low income housing tax credit. They followed our architectural code which had become law as part of that Village Mixed Use Ordinance. In fact, our architectural code, people Google it and I get phone calls from people asking me questions about interpreting things, which is sort of funny. But it was a voluntary thing because we believed that we could do it and we could make it work, and we did. I personally think the whole problem is trying to make people do the right thing rather than encouraging and rewarding for doing the right thing. And I think most of our thousand page zoning codes are based on the idea that you would do something totally awful unless we forced you not to. And there are some people out there. In fact, probably everybody in America was in that group up until about 19, we always use the date 49, when all these zoning codes and so forth took real firm hold. I guess they'd go back to the 20s. So I think it really ought to be a matter of making it easier to do the right thing rather than preventing people, trying to prevent people from doing the wrong thing. Because then you just get avoidance behavior and you get the lowest common denominator. Thank you. You mentioned Randall Arendt, so I'm assuming you might be familiar with conservation developments? Yes. And I was just wondering if you had ever done one where you had an enormous amount of land and you kind of did high concentration in a portion of the property and then left the rest in a natural state and then put it into conservation easements? We have planned three projects in North Carolina that would be conservation developments and luckily for me, all three of them came to the point of being ready to go in 2008. And we did not pull the trigger because we would have been bankrupt just because the whole country fell off the cliff. But one was a thousand acre farm down in Edenton, North Carolina and another was a thousand acre farm in Pender County, North Carolina. And the idea was it's sort of a perverse system because what you have to do is you have to get it zoned for all of the units. So we had to get the thousand acre zone for 6,000 units of housing and then we had to agree not to build on half of it, which would have given the landowners, it did not happen because of the crash of the economy, it would have given the landowners a tax deduction up to 40% of their adjusted gross income for the value of those 3,000 units that were not built. And so it's sort of a game kind of thing that I wish it weren't so tied up in that. The conservation fund is a big part of that in big parts of the West and I know they've done great work. But sometimes it's more tax motivated than other things. Yes ma'am. Good afternoon. Someone mentioned earlier the importance of educating people about the benefits of living close to where you work. And I wondered, and I may just be ignorant on this point, but I wondered if that same type of education was occurring in the financial industry or when we talk about financing of homes. So you mentioned governmental monies and being able to knock a couple of hundred dollars off. So is that something that is occurring now or are there plans or where are we headed in that direction? I think that's a great question because I think that's the weakest link. I don't think that the banking industry or the real estate investment trust industry or the pension funds or the college endowments of America have a clue about the importance of making investments that have long term compounding benefit for the country. And I was actually involved in a group called the TND fund and we called on CalPERS and we called on big pension funds and when it came right down to it, they were only interested in internal rate of return. And if you know how an internal rate of return works, it's based on compound discounting. You sort of reverse compound discount and see what percentage of interest you could have paid if you paid all your money out in interest. And the way that compound interest discounting works is nothing that lasts longer than about seven years has any value and that's the problem. It doesn't work with them. I got my cue that the one minute was over. Thank you very, very much.