 to break the spirit of the population. Hundreds and thousands of Hindu women were forced to marry. There are Avarangzeb streets, Tipu Sultan, Rappies, people who try to commit genocide. Their names should not be on our towns and streets. Thousand temples were destroyed in Kashi. For almost eighty years, all of Kashi was in ruins. A blind man can see what is Gyanwapi. Braille. You can see these are Hindu icons. That's why I said Hindus are Mokopranis. Our voice is not loud. People say twenty thousand temples, forty thousand temples. Is it even feasible to reclaim all of this? If you hand it over, there will be biradari going. I don't think most of the minority community has an issue except these illegitimate leaders post this election. These illegitimate leaders will be pushed aside. Bharat is waking up. Ave Mukteshwar should be a living reality by 2028. For starters, you know, I'd like to ask you that how do you see a book like this and why is it important in a Bharat today, a Bharat that has just witnessed a once-in-a-lifetime Pran Pratishta of Ram Lalla at Ayodhya after 500 years of struggle and strife and a lot of our critics and I'm sure we have lots and lots of them, you more, me less, of various shapes, sizes and colors in both India and outside. There are no critics. There are abusers. I was just being kind to them. Who would probably dub, you know, a venture like this as a majoritarian agenda, Hindu-Shavinism, revivalism. So is it that for you or our works like this going to the very heart, the nub, the essence of touching what is our civilizational identity as Bharatiyas? See, a successful invader not only... not only takes the geography of land, it's very important for him that he takes the geography of the mind to take the mental scape or the mental geography. It's very important to write history in such a way that one who comes and robs and loots us will after a while look rich and even aspirational. This is the epitome of today's Bharat that people who looted, raped and robbed us they have become aspirational to us. That is mainly because of the way our history has been written, not by us but by them. But in the last 70 or 75 years we didn't care to rewrite it. We didn't care to put the picture of the oppressed just anywhere if you... if you... if there are 20, 25 movies from Hollywood one will be about the Jewish Holocaust, one will be about the oppression of you know, the black slaves from Africa but there's not been one goddamn movie or even a book really of considerable currency in the society about what's happened in this country, what's happened in this land. If you really look back, the worst kind of atrocities have happened. If you take a period of 100 years nowhere else on the planet such atrocities have happened. Such large-scale murder and rape and loot has happened as it happened here. But we are... we are people with a very quiet sense of pride. So we think if we don't say it, it didn't happen to us. We just don't say it. That means it did not happen. See, it's like the Japanese. They won't talk about Hiroshima Nagasaki. They won't talk about Fukushima and its suffering. They just go about as if nothing happened because there is a quiet sense of pride, not a loud pride. Those who have a loud sense of pride will write books, make movies, make drama about it. But it's a very quiet sense of pride. We've been diligently trying to recover this. What was taken violently, we tried to take it with legal process. Not of a few years, a few centuries of legal process. Have you ever heard of a legal process going on for 300, 400 years in the courts? This is what India is. But we still believe one day justice will come. Unfortunately, it has come. As ridiculous as it is, it's also deeply... I deeply appreciate it also. What kind of people are these? For 550 years they've been going to courts, run by various kinds of people, from Islamic courts to British courts to Indian courts. The same case about the same temple. What kind of people will do this? There are times they could have violently taken it back, but no, they went to court. Still we are in court. One has been successful, others looking a little better, but this is a... this is a civilization which is relevant, not just for the people who live here. This is a civilization which is relevant to every human being on the planet because this is the only inclusive civilization. I'm not saying all Indians are full of love, they are ready to embrace you tomorrow morning. No, individual people are who they are. But there is no... no place on the planet where there is a scriptural guidance for you to be inclusive. Everywhere scriptural guidances are always about exclusivity. This is the only civilization where almost all our scriptures are talking about embracing the humanity. Not only humanity, embracing all life forms, there is no such place on the planet. To make it a reality in this nation and in the world, I think is the important task that we have for the generation which is here today that an inclusive way of living, that it doesn't matter who you are, how you look, what you believe, what you don't believe, what you eat, what you don't eat is not my business. Whichever way you are, you're okay with me. I'm excited about the differences. I'm not seeing how to make you like myself. I'm seeing how to embrace you, from which angle will you fit into my life. So this is very important because the future generations will not... with the technologies, at least if not out of realization, at least the technologies have obliterated many boundaries. Technology has, by itself, has brought some sense of yoga into people's lives because word yoga means union or a conscious obliteration of individual boundaries. In many ways technology has done this to us. An obliteration of individual boundaries, social boundaries, national boundaries are obliterated because of technology and this is the best time because if you look back on this civilization, this is the only civilization which approached human well-being in a scientific manner, in a logically correct manner. This is why the land is full of debate, endless debate. It's a fantastic thing that it's also worked to against our well-being and interests because when we were being looted and raped, we still debated, unfortunately. But we got into the habit of debating so much that whatever happened, we debated. So sometimes it's been tragic, these debates, but it's fantastic that even the most cruel things that happened to us, we are willing to debate, not simply fight all the time. So this is where we are and at this time, people like you who are writing history with facts, fortunately. Because the ladies may not like it, but it's his story, you know. Because we must understand in old English, him was not just a man, he was not just a man, it was human being, it was a he. So even here in India, Purusha does not mean just a man, it means the human beings. Then further division happens of Sri and Purusha, but generally Purusha means a human being. So similarly, man meant just that. Ooman means a man with a womb. So these are trying to even treat human species between two genders as if they are two separate species, has come in the world. At a time like this, the civilization that we call as Hindustana or Bharat is of vital importance to the world. So it's very important to look both the macro aspect of Hindustan and the micro aspects of Hindustan. This is why I was a bit excited about your books because it is autobiographical at the same time it's history. Autobiography is macro, history is macro. So this combination is very needed, otherwise we don't have insight into people's lives. We just have a bunch of facts which we can't relate to. What is the use of facts and dates without taking people's experiences of that day? So this is a civilization where people think we have no sense of history because we never bothered to meticulously chronicle our dates and events like that, but we only chronicle people's experiences because people's experiences, whether it happened a thousand years ago or five or ten thousand years ago, are still relevant. Dates and events are of no consequence actually except unless you want to earn a PhD in history, which would be easy because you can only talk about what is already there. If you talk about something that's not there, that's called fiction. So it's very important that some Vikram is writing history from an individual perspective through the experience of a human being. Well, some conjecture is there, but looking at the events, we know this is what could have happened. This is how Ramayana and Mahabharat were written. It's history, but because we got so influenced by foolish accumulation of facts and dates, we started saying this is a mythology, this is not history. So we have even separated what is mythology and what is history in this country. No, there is no distinction between the two. It is historical, but human perspective, not just academic in nature. How does one delineate to Sadguru, like a recorded scientific history and legend, so to say, because even in the research of this book, while I was tracing the Hori past of Kashi and of the Vishwanath Mandir, when you fall back on the Puranic literature, every king is ruling for 32,000 years, someone else is there for lakhs of years. How does a modern 21st century historian who's grappling with this to integrate these very different worlds, because Bharat, I think, speaks in a very dialectic way? See, when somebody says, a king ruled for 100,000 years, one thing you must understand, zero was invented by Indians. So we have a certain liberty with that, that we can use it. Nobody added one, two, three, four, all right? We only added zeros. So you can't blame us. But you must understand it in this way. Either that historian who wrote that he ruled for 100,000 years is a sponsored historian, or they loved the king so much, they did not know how to praise him. So they said he ruled forever or he ruled for 100,000 years. So depending on the number of zeros, you must understand that's how much love and praise that they had for him. If anybody ruling any kingdom, at the most you can leave one zero, in fact. Coming specifically to the Kashi Prasannath temple and the K Sath Guru, in the case of Ayodhya, people kept asking us, show us the evidence, where is the evidence and so on. In this case, I mean a lot of you would have visited Kashi through gate four when you go there. The first vision you have of the Gyan Vapi Mosque, first of all that is an oxymoron, a Sanskrit name, well of knowledge for a mosque is a little odd. The western walls, the ruins are all the remains of a 16th century grand temple that was built there. And despite that, as you mentioned, we've gone through the peaceful route. Cases have been going on for 250 years in this case, unlike Ayodhya. Probably we like to argue in the court. Yeah, there are two argumentative Indians that we are. And now we've dumped them. They kept asking, where is the evidence? Now we've dumped them with 800 pages of archaeological survey of India's report that just came out last month or so, which details every little bit. So how much evidence is sufficient for those opposing the temple to actually say, we will agree, does Aurangzeb need to come out of his tomb and say, yes, I did demolish it, and that is only when they will accept this. See, most of the temple demolitions that happened, they always had a historian with them because in their mind they wanted to be remembered as people who demolished this temple and demolished or destroyed idolatry and established whatever they think is the highest form of religion. So they wanted to be remembered as those people who destroyed these temples. So the proof today doesn't mean anything because they themselves have written very proudly that I destroyed this temple. And for example in Mathura, the man who is writing down says, this is the greatest building I've ever seen in my life. So elaborate, so magnificently done, this cannot be the work of a man's hand. There is a divine hand in this, but they proceed to demolish. And it's all, they themselves have written, say that they wrote lies. This is because people who wrote our textbooks screwed up our minds so badly that we don't have a wish to say this is not right. And unfortunately, our legal system, political system and education systems, very key three aspects of this nation were taken over by those people for first 50, 60 years. And because of that, our own minds are like this somewhere. I've taken some time to turn my mind upside down. Otherwise, my school, college, mind, though I barely went there, still it had influence on me. Because somewhere there is a sense of, as I said, it's become aspirational to be like the invaders. There is also a sense of shame to be the victim. So we don't want to be identified with that. If possible, we would like to change the color of our skin, not me, but the whole lot of people. There are movies like this where people are changing the color of their skin. Of course, there are cosmetics to change the color of your skin because somewhere, invaders have become aspirational, which is a terrible thing to happen to any people. But it's happened. Fortunately, there is a revival and suddenly there's an upsurge and there is political will and suddenly judiciary seems to have found its feet. Finally. So let's forget all these things. If we just go by the constitution of the day, which itself has some aspects because nobody ever can write a perfect book about anything. It's okay because you're a book writer, I'm sorry. Completely agreed to that. Nobody can ever write a perfect book. This is the dilemma of any book that you write. If you read it over a thousand times, you will see still it's either this must go, that must come, that must go, this must come. Endlessly it will go on unless somebody else an editor says, either you give it to me tomorrow or you're done. This is the nature of the book. So constitution also, even Ambedkar did not claim it's a perfect constitution, a very well done work, but not a perfect book. Having said that, there there are some issues, but even if you go by the present day constitution, it's very simple, a blind man can see what is Gyan Vapi, braille. You can see these are Hindu icons. It doesn't take any one eyes to see it, but it takes sixty, seventy years of legal process for the wise judges to see. Hope they don't stand for contempt of court here. That is a scary proposition. No, contempt of court is only if I say something about the present day judges. I'm talking about the Holy Past. So, so much delay and so much dilly-dallying has happened. I feel in many ways any process, education, judiciary, whatever process that happens in a given land, one way or the other, is influenced if not totally controlled by the ruling class. So, when the ruling class were totally in that way, I think everybody found a gap in the constitutional process as to how to please the ruling class. So, a time has come where there is a upsurge of awareness in the nation and I don't think the judicial officers can escape the upsurge of awareness and they cannot rule anything in a way that is negative to the civilization and not in coherence with the constitution. We are not even asking for anything beyond the constitution. What is within the constitution must happen. Nobody can say no because this is a right. I'm saying this because somebody had the temerity to pass a law in 1991 saying that citizens of India cannot go to court about certain aspects that matter to them. Places of worship. Nowhere in the world, nowhere in the world no democratic nation can ever say a citizen cannot seek legal recourse. There is no such nation. Definitely we don't want to be such a nation either but a law like that was passed but still we are hesitating to strike it down and I don't know how it escaped the scrutiny of Supreme Court. How can it be? How can you say the citizens of this nation cannot seek legal recourse about things that matter to them? So why you spoke about the present? I'd like to put your attention a bit in the past because that's where the seeds of all the troubles of the present are perhaps there, Sadhguru. And you alluded to the ruling class. So was it, of course the answer is a yes but then was it the Nehruvian Marxist so-called consensus and this false model of secularism where all the time it was the Hindu consciousness that had to be toned down a Hindu could not wear her identity proudly as every other community in India could. There was always this albatross of guilt of inferiority and this albatross also of social harmony, communal enmity was always put on the shoulders of the Hindu and today there is a pushback to that saying thus far and no further and this in some way also influenced the way our systems ran the way all the judiciary or the education system all of that and where do you see this shift from the so-called Nehruvian secularism? Is it a very important juncture in our country today or is there a rupture with that consensus that we have somehow built of the idea of India? See, I don't want to get lost in this terminology of this is Nehruvian, that is Indira Gandhi even whatever whatever because you are very gender conscious and you're saying she, he, all this stuff I will say they from now on. So why I'm saying this is it's not that we have no regard or respect for women or absolutely it is just that this whole thing about just changing one word and thinking we are done with it there is so much that needs to be done but once you change one word it looks like it's done it's not done, all right? In any given society whether they don't like it or they don't like it it's very important that to create a level playing field for both genders this itself may be a crime that I'm saying both that I'm saying there are only two this may be a crime in today's world but anyway to give a level playing feel for all human beings of whatever kind they are ladies, gentlemen and those who have not made up your minds whoever you are to give a level playing field one important thing is this is supposed to be an obscene thing to say that is because they're not in reality they're living in, you know, textbooks or they're living in classrooms or academics without protecting women without giving a certain amount of protection in the law and in the society nowhere will there be level playing field well, there are a whole lot of women these things we don't need any protection then you don't know the nature of the existence because of the biologies that we are one needs little more protection this doesn't mean it's less something needs more protection does not mean it's less than something else it's different so it needs little more protection and if that protection is absent in a society level playing field is just a joke it'll never happen in the name of equality we will exploit women and children because physically there is a little disadvantage which will be exploited of course so in that context this whole process of I don't want to call it Nehruvian or Marxist yes, they played the game but I think they are also people who are over-odd and made invaders aspirational victims of the same the same process that the invaders set forth but of course there are moments in history there are moments in recent history when I say recent in the last hundred years which the way we've been taught doesn't make any logical sense there are question marks which have not been answered and probably even now the nation doesn't have courage to face those questions and find answers to that which I feel the coming generation must ask those questions why, why certain things were done the way they were done why partition because you can forget the pain of those millions of people still the two nations are continuing to bleed all right over a million people dead and over six, seven million people were forcefully pushed from this side to that side and that side to this side this is not a religious question this is a question of humanity six million people leaving everything that they have just leaving and in great hurry going and being refugees in another country still in refugee camps some of them after 75 years and over a million people butchered you can forget it if you want if you put your humanity to sleep you can forget anything but if your humanity is alive those questions must be asked and they must be answered for our generation and particularly for the future generations these questions must be answered I think closely aligned to that Satguru was also the fact that since the Hindu as I mentioned had to tone down the identity their identity not tone down, slink around not be seen not be seen was there also the reason and since being here about a sacred city like Kashi you see that almost all our sacred spots particularly northern India Kashi Ayodhya, Mathura, Prayag, Gaya they all languished in so much of squalor, dirt, filth and it was not at all accessibility was not there only now Ayodhya has an airport they have roads even from an angle of so called the spiritual tourism and the kind of economic benefits it could bring to the country it was not thought of to be important at all so how do you see the manner in which we neglected our sacred spots in the last 75 years and what has all this collectively done to the Hindu consciousness the Hindu psychic today So if you look at any of the ancient temples most of the north Indian temples are not ancient they have been rebuilt hurriedly many times over so they are not really ancient that way but as you come further south you can see ancient temples who largely are on the same foundations on which they were built if you look at these temples you can clearly see if somebody had to build this 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago in terms of engineering, architecture and the immensity of those temples without any machines or mechanical means of transportation to build these temples would not have been an ordinary feat it's a feat it's not construction it's a real feat you are from Tanjabur area alright so the brahiteswaran temple well 80 ton gopuram is sitting there just single piece at that height how did these people have the will to even plan something like that forget about executing it takes a certain daring even today with all the machines we don't dare to build anything like that this effect if we build it collapses very soon don't say that to me I also won't collapse I will stop you of secular bridges and metro rail pillars and so on so when they built such great temples obviously they would have created an ambience of proper roads, approaches and gardens and few hundred acres of land around it today you see it looks like these ancient temples were built in a small little gully because our approach is like that so everything has been taken by whom see once the ruling forces don't care what happens to it then even the people who belong to that culture and may believe in that religion may be participating in that religion their sense of property value will overtake their faith and their devotion if I allow here maybe some of our devotees will want to set up a camp here initially a tent then a small little more something lot of people will want to set up right here in the garden because there is a certain element of law you can say it won't happen but this happened over a period of time there were nobody to enforce anything so certain lawlessness essentially things which are not legal things which were not people take somebody else's property whether it belongs to a man, woman, child or god they will take it because these compulsions are there in human beings so today most great temples have entrances or approach roads which look like these idiots build such a big monument with no approach who is the idiot who planned this this is what you would think but that's not how they planned that's what we have done over a period of time so this is essentially happened not just post independence even pre independence whoever was there in the last 400 years 300 to 400 years they did everything possible to see that Hindu temples if possible destroy were not possible they languish that unfortunately is continuing even today but in the context of Kashi and what we are talking today I think I will go to a million dollar question that everybody in the... why are questions rated as dollars okay a ten crore question why is the question the significance of the question is monetized you should not do that a very important question a very valuable question that burning question like in republic tv you have that fire burning so if it's a burning question you can say it's a burning question if it's a sweets question being the season you can say it's a mango question you can if it's a furious question you can say it's a monsoon question don't bring money into the question sure this is a very American thing everything is dollars so we are talking a lot these days about reclamation of sacred spaces and we probably the first example was of Ayodhya Kashi has gained a lot of momentum Mathura is probably next in line and people a lot of critics of the reclamation movement are asking where will this stop how far will you go there are various numbers floating around I think Dr. Sitaram Goelji had documented about 1826 or so documented cases of encroachment like this some people say 20,000 temples 40,000 temples is it even feasible to reclaim all of this where do we draw a line between so called social harmony and reclamation and as a spiritual master of our times who inspires millions all over the world what would be your prescription for this very very vexed question that we face today as a society see as I said this liberality with zeroes there is a little bit of a problem on that one but who am I to say that only a large temple or a well known place like Kashi or Mathura should be reclaimed somebody else's small temple which was their Kula Daivata or something has been taken and they want it back and they don't have to get it back it's not for me to say that because their emotion for their little temple is as much as man may be about Kashi so it's not for me to say whether they should get it back or not because we've already said this we and also within the framework of the constitution what was taken from you since tomorrow morning what do you drive? Zen so maybe you think it will give you wisdom it doesn't it hasn't so far so suppose you are driving something really worthwhile and I stole it from you and I parked it in my garage then after fifteen days you realized I have stolen it and you came and you took the car from my garage I can put you in prison this is a constitution okay because you are driving a Zen you are safe one's going to take it from me twenty years ago somebody would have taken not now so so somebody has taken the temple forcefully in a most ugly way but you can't go on do the same thing today you can only go through legal recourse I think that's good for the country that's good for us and it's good for everybody concerned but wherever you have abundant truth that it's been forcefully taken if the people who in some way connected to the temple want it back they should have it back if there is abundant proof and it can pass the legal scrutiny but if we go like this whatever you said one thousand eight hundred something is it correct if you go like this it will take another five centuries by the time our arguments are over so I feel it's best we set up some kind of a commission or a tribunal which includes everybody it need not be just people who belong to this faith or that faith scientific minds who know how to study proof and documentation and make up your mind this many should go this many cannot go once for all it must be done in the next two to three years time otherwise this wound will be scratched again and again first of all we must understand this is not against anybody reclamation of a civilizational something of civilizational value is not against anybody for example see beneath your house garden suppose we find some Harappa or Mahanjodaro kind of thing we will take your house I will not allow excavation beneath my house whether you like it or not we will take it so it is not against you I am saying you just lost your house that's all but we may give you another house elsewhere but anything that is of civilizational reclamation everywhere in the world is not considered to be against somebody it is just that something of significant aspect of civilizational history is always taken back everywhere for example in United States of America though the Native Americans have largely disappeared or made to disappear even today their monuments are not some glorious structures like ours but they were glorious for them they just made mud mounds the mounds the mounds are very important even now maintained like that archaeological sites where you go to so I as a part of my you know Native American journey I went to seventeen Native American nations on my motorcycle during the Covid time I made use of the virus effectively otherwise I would have never been able to go I have been wanting to do this for quite some time but you know my schedule the day I arrive in United States till the day I leave there will be schedule but this virus from China gave me freedom it brought so many things into my life it brought the Native American tour and I started painting for the first time in my life and the few people who have been praising the virus is positive I am thankful to the one virus that you know it's a terrible thing to say over six million people died unfortunately but it made me explore many things it may be very resilient in terms of my you know immunity because I did a few things at that time which is still carrying me on for almost four five four years I went without a single day of a cough or a cold or a temperature because I did a few things at that time which I would have never done with the kind of crazy schedules I am always put into so I mean people say you have to see a silver lining it was more than a lining for me and when I went there what I saw was now we go into a monument a Native American monument like a hawkia or the snake bound when you go there being an Indian person you are thinking they are also called Indians so wherever I went some of the chief said be Indians I said no no no I am the real Indian you know you are a mistake so being an Indian person your idea of a monument is there will be a huge temple or a pyramid or something massive but it's just a small mound on the earth this sacred mound going here and there where is the monument where is the monument it's just a mound but this is the nature of civilizational aspects because it's important to preserve human history and what human footprint for this thousands of years because we are in many ways a consequence of what's happened in this thousands of years so you can't just obliterate that simply because your house is going to go all right really going to be very careful now going home and check all the papers as to where this whatever papers you may have if we find a civilizational site your house has to go so this is the same thing for the temples if there is a temple of a certain historicity where it's not just a piece of stone it's a place where poor people poured their life out for those days what it would take to build the temple you must see what is the investment what is the effort that it took how many years of life they labored to make that happen because without machines all by hand just by man's muscle to do all this it will take a certain amount so there is a human involvement which makes it a civilizational structure and to reclaim that is natural for any civilization so at the same time like when somebody says 40,000 even in 40,000 things are given to you are you capable of taking care of them so that's not the point so the point is where it matters for people a lot where it is there in people's memory and there is substantial evidence there is scientific data to show definitely this happened then this should all happen in one shot rather than dragging through the courts one by one so that the nation has does not have to go through this confusion because there are illegitimate leaders I am using the word very consciously normally they would say self-serving leaders but they are illegitimate because their leadership is illegitimate their leaders for the wrong reasons they have become leaders for the wrong reasons from wrong source if something is from a wrong source then you say it's illegitimate a lot of imagination is to whom you might be referring but I shall curb my imagination let's do that it doesn't take much imagination anyway so they are trying to create this fear mongering among communities and say oh you are whatever this is against your community this is happening that's happening as maybe you have also recorded and many others have recorded that even in the early stages of Ayodhya post-47 I am talking about the Muslim community was ready to hand it over they didn't mean much to them because it was not a great mosque for them but they knew it is it was Janmastan so everybody knew it is on Ram's Janmastan they were willing to hand it over it was certain crooked political agents and Marxist historians how do you call them historians I call them political agents the same you called somebody a historian when they gather things from the past they try to put it together in a presentable manner not somebody who writes up things for their political agenda that is not writing history so you don't call them historians these political agents force the communities to believe that that is not the way to go about it let us fight no matter what anyway we are with you government is with you so we will do this we will do that but this is the nature of who we are no matter what happened to us yesterday you know because our icons are like this you worship Rama he kills his enemy enemy not just a political enemy somebody who kidnaps your wife and tries to force her into becoming his wife with such a man he fights a battle well he wins he could have lost see of course today you believe he cannot lose no no battle means anybody can lose alright anybody can lose he won fortunately but when he came back he goes into one year of repentance for killing an enemy alright this is the kind of culture and civilization we've had that means no matter what we have to do some karma we have to do we will do but without any bitterness in our heart no matter what somebody did to us well we keep our distance if they are not good to us but there is no bitterness in our heart so even now about these temples I want to make it clear in most people's hearts this jain father and son fantastic people what Harishankar Jain and Vishnu Shankar Jain look at their faces there is no bitterness in their heart they just want to see what is justice is done there is no bitterness there is no fight reclamation of civilization is not a fight when it happens we will celebrate it is not victory it is just a celebration so having said that I don't think most of the minority community has an issue except illegitimate leaders who have somehow placed themselves and their voices have become reasonably heard they are confusing the people all the time and getting the community into trouble all the time they have not brought any well being the most in terms of education in terms of economics in terms of holding positions in the country in everything this community has been deprived because of these leaders otherwise they would have done well like everybody else they are not disadvantaged in any way by law they are not disadvantaged why are they not doing as well mainly because of this illegitimate leaders adding to what you said Sadhguru does that also mean you know the fundamental theological difference itself between a temple and a mosque a temple is a is the abode of a prana pratisthit deity who lives there a congregational space for prayer and in Islamic nations itself very routinely they are translocated from one place to the other for mundane things like building a road or widening you know a railway line and so on so if the right people sit and negotiate there can be say in a elements who can be addressed yes if you hopefully post this election leaders will be pushed aside if they are pushed aside I am I am very sure there is a lot of wisdom in the Islamic community they are not senseless people as they are being seen today because of these voices which are speaking louder than everybody else I know I have lots of friends families who are very close to me who are very devout Muslims because I don't care whether somebody is Muslim, Hindu or Christian they are devout that matters to me because devotion is not about something what you are devoted towards is one aspect but because you have devotion in your in your heart there is a certain transformation in your life so the devout Muslims would have no problem because clearly the Sharia law says that you can never take another man's place of worship and build your place it is haram so just by that not even by Indian courts or Indian constitution just by Islamic law it will not fly but as I said this illegitimate leaders who constantly mouthing hatred which is not there in the hearts of common people and I'd like to play it's a hard role to play devil's advocate devil here needs to be represented because every time one talks about reclamation of temples often the argument comes what about it's a mythical argument but what about the Buddhist structures that the Hindus you know, allegedly destroyed so suppose tomorrow there is a Buddhist Tupa or a cave beneath a very grand temple will the Hindu community also be willing to give that up? See the reverse is also true and which existed before which is the earliest times, you're a historian you please tell me Yes so tell me the chances of temples being built over there are temples over which stupas have been built because stupa is not a place for people to enter it's just brick or mud it's a solid structure the very idea of stupa some people say is because they covered the temples otherwise why would you build a building that you can't enter so that is another matter but that if there are incidences like that they are not too many and there is nobody to reclaim them so if really if you have solid evidence like that maybe that will also have to come into picture whether Hindus have built over Buddhist sites or Buddhists have built over Hindu sites if there are of significance to people if it's still in their collective memory and there is scientific proof yes it doesn't matter which religion whether we have to give something or they have to take something it's perfectly okay with me the important thing is that you take pleasure in the wounds of other people's hearts that's not okay with me the question that you I think alluded to in your earlier answer we can reclaim them then what happens after that because then if it goes to the government control this is what I was about to say the real the real reclamation that needs to happen is not just Kashi Matura thousands if not hundred thousands of temples which are in the hands of the government run by government clerks who are not necessarily devotees see without a god they can be a temple but without a devotee there is no temple let's understand this so now there are thousands of temples probably if you add up in all the states it's over hundred hundred twenty thousand or hundred fifty thousand temples which are in different states of slowly being murdered say murdered if there is a temple here and the person inside who is in charge is not a devotee of the deity it's murder it's happening once that person who stands there doesn't have their hearts don't beat for the deity there is no meaning in the temple so we have done this so that reclamation needs to happen in how to do this there are so many ad hoc legislations which have happened in various states many concerned people have gone to courts and as you know our courts take 550 years to deliver a judgment but I think we need a we deserve a parliamentary legislation that's all the state legislations which were made at various times the important reason the only reason why temples are in the hands of governments is because of the wealth that they had the British were interested in the temples because there was wealth that they could easily transport to Her Majesty's service and at least a significant part of World War II was funded by the Indian temples from the wealth that was stolen from Indian temples even you here in Kashi when Naurangzeb and others destroyed the temples how many camels or elephants carried gold and diamonds that were there because this was a land of gold and diamonds where gold and diamonds in many places were sold like vegetables on the street side nuggets of gold and diamonds were sold like vegetables without security that is how much it was present so a whole lot of it was in the temples and even now you have seen in Tiruvannathapuram temple the estimates are incredible that a few... yeah many zeros not out of our liberty but genuine zeros so because of wealth they see the Islamic invaders they wanted the wealth to start with let's not call them invaders the Islamic Moraders who came in the beginning they wanted just the wealth so they attacked temples the invaders as I said they wanted to occupy not just the geography but the mental geography of the population so they did things in a certain way to break the spirit of the population that even your God cannot protect himself what can you do to belittle the people to destroy the spirit it was done and further these are the things in a man's life today I know all these gender issues but in a man's life in the past if you take away his woman his God and his land he's broken and all these three things they took one reason how Islamic population swelled in this country is they took hundreds and thousands of Hindu women as slaves and produce Muslim children out of them so the ugliness of it cannot be documented by any historian the ugliness of that the pain of that and the suffering of that is not something that you can put it in numbers but it's happened all that we are not reclaiming just the significant important temples which are in our eyes please don't fight it just if you hand it over there will be biradari going let it happen for the well-being of the nation in a country sir guru where temples are under government control we have in the 1995 we had this work act where I think after the defense and the railways the third real estate holder in this country is the WAKF boards across India 75% of New Delhi is supposed to be WAKF property where even the Delhi High Court the central Vista is allegedly under WAKF are they paying the rent at least I don't think so allegedly in Mumbai even Mukesh Ambani's house is WAKF property so at any point he will manage it I am worried about the High Court and then they are the judge jury in prosecution because you have a WAKF tribunal where you have to go to and that's not the civil courts where you can get to so many discriminatory laws in a country that claims to be secular which actually means the state has no business in running religious institutions do you see irrespective of which party comes what happens do you see any movement forward in this or does it need to be a people's movement we all sign up and say thus far and no further and we will not take this lying down anymore the first thing is we must make up our mind whether we want to be a secular nation or a theocratic nation I think by consensus we chose to be a secular nation because Bharat cannot be any other way because we have mothered so many movements today which we call as religions are movements Buddhism was a movement it is not an ism it's like if tomorrow this this ish of people you know if they grow in numbers the idiots may declare they are a religion by themselves I will not allow that I will put in mechanism so that it doesn't happen like this a Buddha came a certain number of people followed him it's a spiritual movement but somebody else from outside comes and labels it as ism so people who followed Mahaveev they are very devout spiritual people alright very disciplined focused people towards what towards liberation which is the fundamental goal of sanatana dharma who separated these things because people wanted these things to be separate people saw in this collectiveness there is no penetration so you must understand first of all that wherever they went the invaders you can call them colonizers you can call them imperialists you can call them islamists whatever wherever they went whichever part of geography they conquered they always transformed the population if you can use that word to their ways without exception nearly hundred percent you take North America, South America Africa, Australia you take any place where they went clean sweep this is the only place where still after nearly thousand years of invasions and occupations we still largely little diluted distorted still we largely keep the sanatan ethos with us knowingly and knowingly but I feel whatever damage that was caused in seven hundred, eight hundred years of occupation more damages happened in the last seven years because this is like an internal scratch where see if there is attacks from outside you can withstand your pride will come up and you will fight and you will recreate and rebuild but if the termites eat you up from inside you don't know what happened one day when we touch you you are hollow so this hollowness has come into this generation there is no strength of civilization in them their aspiration is to go somewhere because some other civilization seems to be more successful when people did not know what is industry we had industry when people you know like people some of the Dutch East India Company people are among themselves writing letters to each other they are saying that if you want to learn anything about business you must go to Gujarat in India these people have made a science out of trade and business then not new so I am saying whether it's business or trade or mathematics or astronomy or music or spiritual process or philosophy or simply thought process the profoundness of this culture was such invaders who came initially they slaughtered and destroyed things but later on they were overwhelmed by the profoundness of what was happening here so even their swords stopped halfway it did not go all the way because that is the reason why still 80% of the population is Hindu in this country because even the cannons and swords of invaders stopped looking at the profoundness of understanding of thought, music, astronomy and various sciences including business and industry and as everyone knows today this was not known when we were growing up we never knew that 225 years ago we were the largest economy on the planet when we were 16, 17 we were all wanting to go to America yes, genuinely and nobody told us just 200 years ago we were the largest economy biggest industrial nation on the planet 33% of the worlds exports were from India nobody told us anything like this nowhere in our god damn textbooks these things were written do you foresee, Sadhguru, a Hindu reawakening happening or is the Hindu society in such stupor it's almost in coma that your so oblivious ignorance is bliss and not at all being aware to all the dangers that geopolitically, strategically religiously in other ways surround us we're just in our own high philosophy not to make to the realities that world presents to all of us is that resurgence possible? I don't think a real resurgence is happening yet but Bharat is waking up still go in our eyes we are awake but still go in our eyes we are still rubbing our eyes we can't believe yes people of my generation still can't believe that actually this is all true even for me took some time to understand this is true because I was more left than anybody you know when I was 11, 12 I read Das Kapital and the Engels and by the time I was 12, 13 I wanted to join the armed struggle in Andhra Pradesh in the so I was more left than anybody because it looked like that was the only solution they say up to the age of 25 you've not turned Marxist something's wrong with your heart after that if you continue to remain Marxist something's wrong with your head that's true I turned away from that well before 25 okay because intellectually Marxism looks like the most compassionate way to exist in a way well this Isha Yoga center is communist not by ideology but by life here nobody knows who produces how much money for the center but everybody gets the reasonably the same thing because this is communism people live as a community without wondering who is what who is what is this person's religion what is that person's caste we don't even know we don't even ask because it doesn't matter so Marxism spoke about this but in a way that is not practical but for you to realize it's not practical you need to at least turn 18 before that if you get fired with Marxism I almost went because I saw some corruption which disturbed me I stepped back some of my friends went one of them became a reasonably prominent leader he got shot about 8 years ago in Mysore near Mysore and the other one I don't know where he went whether he is still alive or dead I don't know I stepped back because a man who was encouraging us to join and we were all going his own son also was my classmate he was also with us about 5 of us he was daily ramping us up that it's time to go for you you're 15 you must go this is the time to go and fight just the attraction of carrying a weapon and being a part of the revolution you know it's like a very big thing when you have fresh testosterone in you a gun and a revolution and changing the whole country like that is very very attractive I'm saying so when just the next day or the next day we are supposed to leave we've already gathered everything I got some army haversacks with me clothes extra shoes this that works for a armed conflict okay going for the training and then then I see this professor's son Masher University was full of these people at that time and this professor's son he's not getting it I say hey what happened to you you don't have nothing he said no I'm not coming I said why my father said I should not go I said your father wants me to go he doesn't want you to go then I step back I tried to stop the others what's happening here but those guys anyway went unfortunately one of them died recently other I don't know what happened maybe he left or maybe he's still there or maybe he died I don't know I don't think anybody would survive this long in that that kind of life but maybe he did not become prominent he could have just slipped out whichever way so I'm in my head I was far more left than most people are in their life for me Marxism was just not a romanticism of teenager for me it was the thing to do it was the thing to do so from there I'm here who I am today out of realization not out of conversion I did not get converted as I paid more and more attention to everything what is sensible what works for every human being that is the only thing we should do and communism as an ideology is the most compassionate and fantastic ideology but Marx knew so much about economy nothing about human nature he knows a lot of economic economic numbers and how we can distribute wealth do this do that but he knows nothing about human nature he always thought America will be the first nation to become communist can you beat that in America the worst worst insult you can put on somebody is you're a communist means you're finished that's how it is it happened to us also now so he completely underestimated the human nature and things just the facts of economics will work which is very wrong which is very superficial way of looking at human activity, human mind, human thought human emotion, human consciousness this is a very superficial way of looking at it it got installed massive human disasters happened the kind of disaster that you can't imagine to make Russia or that USSR what it was to make it an industrial power to make it a military power they had to kill 20, 30 million people of their own nation all right Joseph Stalin went about killing nearly 26 million people that's what they say if not 26 whatever even if it's 6 million people it's too much of your own people not in a war to administer them you start killing them see if these two groups fight a war then some will die that is the nature of war but in administration if I have to kill 26, 26 million people obviously I'm a lousy administrator I know nothing about the people I know nothing about the needs of the people I know nothing about the aspirations of the people I know nothing about how to do anything only then I'll have to kill 26 million people to administer my own people Is that Hindu awakening you see happening in the near future how long do you think that will take I have no problem with the word Hindu but because in the world's perception there is a certain issue because people it's like if you say yoga people think you're tying up in knots whatever you try to tell them it's union it is this it is that yoga okay you have to look like a left over noodle so similarly Hindu means Hinduism oh you worship cow snake worldwide it is spread because that's the kind of books that were written everything done so instead of using the word Hindu I would use the word sanatan is better because sanatan means eternal nothing can be eternal unless it's all inclusive nothing in the universe can ever be considered eternal or near eternal let's say without it being all inclusive unless it's breathe it breeds the creation it cannot be eternal a philosophy cannot be eternal a belief system cannot be eternal an ideology cannot be eternal only that which is in tune with creation can be eternal as eternal as creation is at least so when we say sanatan we're talking about an eternal dharma does not mean a religion unfortunately this word has gotten around like this dharma does not mean religion dharma means the law an eternal law how you arrive at eternal laws by observation not by imagination not by dogma but by observation and realization you come to in alignment with creation only that can be sanatan so that is the essence of who we are that's not been conveyed to most of the Hindu population unfortunately they think Hindus talking about we have our own book we did not fall out of a book you know we made many books thousands of them well when when Kilji what's his name Bhakti R.Kilji came in one university the Nalanda University it's estimated that it burned 9 million books 500 600 years ago 9 million books nowhere on the planet there were 9 million books anywhere and burned for 6 months that's what they say some people say it's 12 months you're saying 6 months it doesn't matter there was no petroleum so it is possible it took 6 months or 12 months more than that they burnt over they say 8 to 10,000 monks because most of them could recite one one book by themselves so they thought books will live within you so they burned them also alive so the incredible thing is the modern day Bharat names that region as Bhakti or Poor so this is one thing we must do Vikram you must write a book on this there are Aurangzeb streets Aurangabad there are over 60 Aurangabad there is Bhakti or Poor there are Kutub Minar the man who desecrated both Hindu and Jain temples and built a monument out of that there is of course Suthipu Sultan most terrible things were done over 400,000 Hindus were converted to Islam by force by Tipu Sultan just in the Malabar region men were slaughtered they say in a chronicle by approved by his own son that means it's genuine they proudly claim he killed a minimum of 10,000 Hindus and men were killed women were forced to marry on the same day of their husband's death if they did not agree hot iron was put into their privates this is the way things were done and I have nothing against Islamic rulers because that's our history we allowed them to come and it happened kings who ruled benevolently you want to put their name is fine but murderers, rapists people who tried to commit genocide and desecrated hundreds of temples their name should not be on our towns and streets so recently somebody invited me to their house because of some pilots were meeting they said sath guru you must come you are a licensed pilot you must be there, they will allow it just ten minutes you come and go I said okay give me the address I will come then they gave me the address and it said thukla krod I said I'm not coming so you must understand not because he's Islamic king because of what he's done even if a Hindu king or a Christian like Robert Clive street means I won't go you take a spray paint and paint that street board black then I will come otherwise I'm not coming to your house shamelessly you're living on that street I will not walk into that street because why don't we have why don't we have Adolf Hitler Nagar why don't we do this why don't we have Edi Amin Nagar or Puram why don't we we don't do that people who displayed extraordinary sense of cruelty to other human beings whoever they were we don't elogize them but today in this country there are hundreds of towns villages and cities and streets named after these people I'm sure you can recount better I am not good at numbers, names and dates in the state Karnataka there's also Tipu Jayanti forget towns it's you're also celebrating his birth Tipu Jayanti there was a Tipu express one of the worst tyrants even converted dead kurgis not only those living even the corpses the kurgs have taken you know we think kurgs took the worst of the brunt that's not a fact it felt that way because the kurgs fought in other places there were no fighting men they just took it without so much resistance so it's not so well recorded kurgs really fought but seventy thousand kurgis were killed if you fight a battle and you get killed considering those times it was the order of the day it's alright it's alright if somebody comes and slaughters you in a battle but it's not alright when you line up civilians and slaughter them and rape the women slaughter the men what is that people who did that their name should not be flying on towns and streets and circles in our country but unfortunately it is I hope the future elected leaders of this nation have enough wisdom to change that but what is this perverse mindset that actually hyphenates today's communities to these people what makes those illegitimate leaders think that you know today's communities actually will be appeased by whitewashing the crimes of these genociders and why do today's communities valorize them no I don't think today's communities valorize them as I said illegitimate leaders are there in every way they are ill-gotten so these people are doing this because they have kept the community as a rule uneducated uninformed because that is their only capital if they come out educate themselves in normal ways and get to economic well-being they will not listen to these leaders so they know that very well they know social engineering very well because they have done this for hundreds of years they have been doing this successfully till now we need to change that if we are interested in the well-being of that community and the nation high-time they did inner engineering instead of social engineering now you will get me into trouble my final questions are grew the title of this book is waiting for Shiva the picture is of that Nandi which is sitting on the other side and facing the mosque and we are right behind the Nandi statue here as well I don't like it because Nandi is a symbol of eternal waiting so that was my question which I have quoted you in the epilogue where you have talked about the esoteric importance of waiting and how that is such an important but in this case we shouldn't be waiting for too long so the wait for Shiva the wait for Gyan Bapi how do you see this case moving forward do you see this closing very soon Vishweshwar comes back as in the Puranic text back to becoming to a grand celebration as you mentioned not a victory over somebody but a celebration Havi Muktaeshwar should be a living reality by 2028 it is done it is done and by your grace if there are numerous additions to this book I will have to change the title change the cover page Havi Muktaeshwar and that we waited for Shiva at some point of time thank you so much for your this is fine conversation but give them some history Gyan with all the dates and stuff I mean the book catalogs the entire history of the Kashi Vishwanath Mandir the Hori past as mentioned in the Puranic literature and so on but then right from 1194 when Gudi Nayabak first attacked Varanasi and destroyed all the temples Hassan Nizami one of the chroniclers says 1000 temples were destroyed in Kashi in just that one attack and as a Guru mentioned the amount of wealth was taken over on 18 camels and 300 elephants and all the temples destroyed and within a few years Razia Sultan who was there just for four years she still found time to build a mosque there which is called the Razia Masjid which still exists there and some say that is the site of the original Vishweshwar temple and that's why just next to that there is an Adi Vishweshwar temple as well numerous iconoclastic waves happened of the Jaunpur Sharki Nawabs, the Khilji's Sikandar Lodi who demolished the whole of Kashi towards the end of the 16th century you have something very prominent in his name in Delhi yes the Lodi estate the Lodi road and all of that Lodi gardens and everything unfortunate and for almost 80 years all of Kashi was in ruins and that was when now on the one hand there is this depressing tale of destruction and I wouldn't want to limit the discourse to that because as the destruction were happening the other story which is of importance is of resurgence is of resilience, is of courage that we showed our ancestors showed now barely you know 10-15 years after Kudabuddin Naibak's destruction in 1212 you had a Bengal ruler Vishwarupa of the Sena dynasty coming to Varanasi and right in the heart of the city he erects a pillar a Vijayastham saying this city belongs to Vishweshwar it was literally marking the you know mark there and today all these I appreciate his intent but a pillar will not replace a temple it was the height of the Delhi Sultanate Sadguru so he could not obviously build a grand temple but at least there was that sense of reclamation and more important and there to the Gujaratis no I am saying this in today's times we should not go and put one stone and said this is Avimuktheshwar we want the whole thing but then to the Gujaratis were so as you mentioned the most industrious like we have some people in the echelon the par too so you had a Gujarati businessman called Vasthupal who in 1240 1250 gave 1 lakh rupees in those days to rebuild this grand temple and today we talk so much all these illegitimate leaders whom you have sparred with also who talk of a north south divide south India is different north India is different for Kashi and it's consciousness to be regained the whole of India's heart Bharat's heart from Karnataka you had a ruler called Veera Narasimha who donated an entire village called Hibade so that the proceeds of the revenue that came from that village could be paid by the pilgrims who had to pay jazia tax for you to go to your own temple or your sacred spot you have to pay a tax to the Delhi sultanate and he says in a inscription that all this even now we have to pay tax yes I was just thinking that as I come from a state which pays that tax to any temple which has revenue more than a crore so there was the Hoysala ruler so north south east west nobody thought this is our this is Uttar Pradesh this has nothing to do with my culture my language they were these common aspects of civilizational importance and that is what defines a nation for all people who tell we were not even a nation British who gave us a sense of nationhood what is a nation this common sense of shared emotional attachment to important symbols and markers of our civilization that is what marked this nation and in that we find an astonishing convergence over the centuries they were Maharashtrian Brahmins who went all the way to Kashi caused a resurgence and that's how one of them Narayan had got the temple reconstructed in 1580 when Akbar was slightly more tolerant than the rest of them. I think his work was one of the most important landmarks. Yes sir Narayan Bhatt wrote Tristhali Setu in which he in detail explained the importance of Kashi and its Mahatmyam and this temple became so grand that was the grand Ashta Mandap temple to Vishweshwar which even the on news channels you see the map that James Princep in the 16th century developed this was the temple that he had established in 1580 and that lasted barely for 60 70 years and 1669 was when Aurangzeb got that destroyed but even after that they were continuous attempts to reclaim especially by the Marathas who had started gaining so much of political power by then Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was alive when Vishwanath Mandir was destroyed and it is said that his mother mother Jija Bai had told him that if you are man enough the goal of your life should be the reclamation of the Kashi Vishwanath temple and that and that was an unending stream of thought in the Maratha Samarajya. So right in the book I also mention about the letters of Vaji Rao Peshwa of Nana Saheb Peshwa several others negotiating with the Mughals then the Awad Nawabs and then the British East India Company too saying give us back our sacred spots. So those of us who think this case is only something that started now it has political roots no for thousand years our ancestors did not give up on this shrines fell shrines rose but the Hindus of Bharat never gave up for the Sanatani's of Bharat never gave up on several of these sacred spots particularly Kashi Vishwanath and no wonder then in 1778 or so it was a Maratha Queen, Devi Ahilya by Holkar who got another little innocuous looking Mandir constructed and that is the temple that we go to and worship today and the other interesting part is in 1836 you had Maharaja Ranjit Singh the Sikh Maharaja who gold plated the Shikharas of that which you see today. Today people are trying to create divisions between the Hindus and Sikhs saying these are different communities as a separate Kali movement but the greatest ruler of Punjab revered Vishwanath went there and prayed it is said that when he defeated the Afghan ruler Durrani he also asked for the doorway of the Somnath Mandir that Mahmud Ghazni had destroyed 800 years ago just imagine a 20 something young man who is probably not very educated but that intergenerational memory that was there with him. And it was also the Nihams who came and established in Ayodhya also Ram Lalava was established when he was completely out. True, they were the ones who came and wrote Ram Ram on all the walls and created this because of them the cases went to the avat court so the the Sikh Hindu unity which again like the Hindu Buddhist schism that are sought to be created the same thing is done with the Hindus Sikhs. So this temple slowly started coming but it was never given up there were bloody riots in Varanasi in 1810 there was something called the Lart Baro riots where people literally wanted to reclaim the entire space the Gyanwapi Masjid was set on fire and evacuated the Muslim community from there but the British did not want to get into these difficult terrain so they let them continue but since then court cases on this people tree is mine no the branches are coming to our territory the leaves are falling here for all this I think the British must have been tearing their hair saying what is it that these two communities are constantly fighting for but the the subtext is that it was something so important in our consciousness and that we have forgotten today so for everyone who asked what is the need for this we have so many more temples everywhere no in the Hindu idea or Hindu imagination Sanatani imagination once a temple always a temple I think the Pran Prakash said deity that is there as a living form there a living being whom we offer Nithya Pooja as we would do to a human being unless you do a Vithivath resurgence that energy is not gone from that space so we need to reclaim that it is an important enough you know civilizational project and as Satguru mentioned it is not against anybody I think it should be as much a revered spot for the Muslims, Christians Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Parsis, everyone of India as it is for the Hindus of India so this case too and since independence have been numerous cases going on in 1991 this case was filed in the name of Aadi Vishweshwar so deity is a living entity so he files a case as the plaintiff saying this is my house I want the entire thing for me and my devotees now that case unfortunately got stuck in Indian courts for 22 years and it is only now in December 2023 that the Allahabad High Court fast tracked it saying by June it should be disposed of this year but alongside you had the Jain duo whom Satguru mentioned Hari Shankar Jain Ji and Vishnu Shankar Jain who facing innumerable intimidation threats and all kinds of odds which I document you really feel so you know miserable attempts made to kill them there were allurements lots of things that they faced no support of any government any organization single-handedly and for all practical purposes they are a minority community too the Jains so they fighting for one of you know Hindu temples is really a testament and Hari Shankar Ji very jokingly said the 2021 case was actually filed in the name of Mahashringar Gauri so and that gathered momentum very fast and he said you know Vishveshwar is a Yogi Adi Yogi Samadhi he is always sitting in Samadhi he doesn't care whether he is found in the Vazukhana whether there is a temple or not but Mah is not like that she would not let her husband sit sit insulted when her own father tried to insult the husband she jumped into the sacrificial fire and created the rakhis that all of you know which followed after that so here also it was only after the case was filed by these people in the name of Mahashringar Gauri quickly the things started moving there was an advocate commissioner survey that happened and then the ASI survey so in the book there is the entire legal history makes for fascinating reading where at every case all kinds of you know things said to derail it saying no no no this was not a temple this was actually Akbar's dinayilahi structure no this was Darashiko's Sanskrit school everything except Vishwanath Mandir everything but a Hindu temple but by you know from now on I will also start saying her story then this story that would be a huge influence on other side and as you all know in 2022 I believe in doing what works it's always safe it's not safe it must work otherwise what's the use of action that is why Sadhguru what is the use of any action that we do if it doesn't work yeah that is why after meeting you last time the first course I did was Linga Bhairavi Sagina that is more important then we will go to Dhanalinga later so as part of this survey as you know they say you know in the book I detail how these people you know both parties go to that Janwapi site and there is this Vazukhana the place where Vazu is a place where people go and do ablutions, wash your dirty feet and rinse your mouth before prayers and the Jains they wanted that place surveyed too now lot of you know protests against that by the Masjid committee saying no no no you can't go there they knew there was something wrong there and they tried to put all kinds of obstruction saying no no there are fish in that and if you remove the water the fish will die now unfortunately for them the Jains were more vegetarian than all of them and they said we have a lot of concern for these unfortunate fish so with some oxygen cylinder brought there and all that the fish survived and as that water kept coming the levels kept coming down you had that shivelling structure that came out and like I began I believe everybody is how they all greeted it now that too was disparaged saying you know this is a fountain there was a drill on the top that was put there is no suction mechanism there is no fountain mechanism there so I think that what Satguru mentioned this whole reconciliation it needs to happen it's a two way street every relationship every friendship everything is a two way street both communities need to come if we say reconciliation it looks like there was a fight and then we are reconcealing now as I said earlier you can check it out if you want most of the Muslim community doesn't care about these things because their own Sharia law says you can't do this it is a handful of leaders who have of course they have a few hot-blooded people around them if this is in some way properly conveyed to the entire nation I think it's not reconciliation it's only reclamation of civilizational aspects so even if Mughals are also part of history if there are some aspects which are important of history created by them and it's occupied by somebody who may be a Hindu by his faith it must be taken back I'm saying the question is not of religion the question is of civilization and the devotees are not see the devotee are not really religious it's just that their heart is brimming with humanity this can easily be when somebody's heart is on fire you can very easily make them violent it's unfortunate truth because only their heart is brimming their head is not all that realized in that sense so somebody else of vested interest can turn them into a violent group of people but to get a human being to have his heart brimming is a great achievement that itself even that is happening it doesn't matter through the agency of which religion it doesn't matter when somebody's heart is brimming those people will have no conflict it is just those people whose hearts are rotten and their head is full of this kind of self significance kind of process they are doing those things and well by nature certain religions may be you know the dogma of the religion may be saying certain things which are completely not right in the sense see when people broke these temples or dominated these or put taxes or took the wealth away as the British did either they considered you as slaves or as kafas you are infidel or you are a slave both don't deserve much if you consider somebody a slave you don't believe they deserve much if they're infidel also you don't think they deserve much that attitude has to be taken out of certain dogma which may be there which is there rather but still I don't think that is in the hearts of most of the people who follow Islam as a religion it is not because across the Arabic world when I travel there is no such thing it's just a handful of people but those handful of people have a very loud voice that's why I said Hindus are mukha pranis though we are 80% our voice is not loud so as when you asked is there a resurgence no resurgence yet but they're waking up but still go in their eyes they need to clean that and then they have to clear their throat you know morning is an Indian ritual then their voice should become clear enough so that the universality of sanathan reverberates across the globe this is not mine versus yours this is about humanity wonderful on that wonderful note again immensely grateful Sadhguru for your valuable time all the best for you and this hope many people get to read this thank you so much Sadhguru and if I have the audacity to conclude with a suggestion that someone like you with the kind of healing touch and the kind of influence that you wield on human minds irrespective of the faith I think as the new you know political system comes into place maybe from June 2024 I would urge you to take the lead in ensuring that a lot of this mediation a lot of these Sena voices out of court settlements reconciliation commission that you spoke of because even in divorce cases people would want the husband and wife to settle it out of court in court a lot of muck will come out but this is not divorce this is marriage this is marriage so but let it not get stuck in courts let us not call Sringar Gaurima again and again and ensure that we put a bonus on her but the important thing is the new occupiers of the temple or the government itself that's another battle to fight so if they are not willing to do that definitely their hearts are not in this either so we need to make them see that if we have decided to be a secular nation which is our wish that we want to be a secular nation then government should have no business in anybody's places of worship anybody's thank you thank you thank you everyone have a nice day thank you