 In this episode of Creative Studio Live, we'll be debating whether you should focus on making music or making money. I'm going to be joined by my co-host, Pete Johns, from Studio Live today. Say hi, Pete. Hi, Pete. It's great to be here, Mike. I love seeing you in black, as always. That's true, isn't it? So we haven't joined us here before. Creative Studio Live is a new weekly show where Pete and myself debate topics on the broader subject of making music. And this week, as I said, it's going to be talking about whether you should focus on making music or making money. Now, the trick to this is that we will not know which one of us is debating on which side. So I will toss the coin later to decide whether it's me or Pete debating this or that. But before we get into that, what we usually like to do is walk up on each other's week quickly to see what we've been doing. So, Pete, from Studio Live today, which I should mention, people should subscribe to in the down below. Pete, what have you been up to this week? I have been up to my usual thing, which is trying to get a video out every day while juggling everything else in the world. So, yeah, we've been talking about SoundCloud this week over on the channel on Studio Live today. We've been talking about a bunch of GarageBand goodness. And we've been talking about trying to release your best music and do good things. And just just today, I talked about some 808. I don't know if you love the roll and TR 808, but I just put out a video of that, making some 808 beats on your phone. Do you believe that we have an 808 drum machine sitting on our iPhone these days, Mike? It's ridiculous. So it's amazing. Do you know how it's back in the day? Back in the day, they must have been a lot. I know that there's the knockoffs that they sell now for like four or five hundred dollars, but the vintage ones are selling for a lot now. But I'm sure back in the day, they cost a lot. I don't know yet. You're a little bit, you're a little bit more. What's what's a nice word for old? You've been around a bit longer than me. So what did they cost back in the day? I've got a clue. I was asking you. What's been happening over on Creative Source this week, Mike? It's been it's been a busy creative week. It's been a little bit crazy. I suppose the most exciting thing for me personally happened today because I went over one thousand subscribers. And thank you. And I've only been at this a little less than six months. So and it was only six weeks ago that I celebrated five hundred subscribers. So I'm pretty happy about that. But one of the great things that happened is that I was able to take part in the release of a new plug-in from Ample Sound for their Super Jumbo guitar, which is a very, very nice sounding instrument. And I had three licenses to give away, still have three licenses to give away. So if you didn't catch that, then please look through my videos and you can get a chance to win a full license for that really nice sounding guitar VST. So that's been a big part of what I've been up to. Now, let's not focus on the past. Let's focus on the present heat. I am now going to toss this coin here, which I've been rehearsing quite a bit today to get this right live. And this is going to decide on which side of the debate you sit on. So would you like to call it tails? Tails never fails, mate. That's what I've been told. So let's go with. All right, here we go. And it is, in fact, tails. I will hold it up there. Look, it's an Australian 20 cents coin. That's a beautiful. You get this is a bugger, isn't it? You get to choose which side of the debate you're on. So I'm going to ask you the question, Pete. Should we put most of our focus on making music or making money? Well, now we mentioned this before, Mike, and I said that there's one side that I'm going to find a lot easier than the other side. And I'm going to have to take making music. So I'm going to throw you under the bus. I know you've had a big week and I know you've been away from the studio. And yeah, you're going to have to tell us why we need to make money. So I guess that means I'll be talking about why we should be making music and focusing on that instead of making money. It's horrible. You've turned really horrible, Pete. John, you used to be a nice boy when you're on your own channel. You're a nice guy. What happened here? All right, then. Well, you've got to you've got to go first, my guess. So you tell me, why should we focus on music rather than money? Right. So why should we focus on music? Well, like just let's just look at the radio. Like is radio even a thing these days? I'm not even sure, but what is what is popular these days? So what's on the radio or the streaming or the spotifiers or the whatever the children listen to? Now, if you're focusing on money, is it is it not true that you would have to be making music similar to what is actually popular? And would you actually want to be making music like that? Like if you listen to what's actually being put out there right now, great, great music is being put out right now. Yeah, yeah. That's what you think. Yeah. Is that what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. No, there's music being put out there right now that is, you know, it's easy to remade my children like it, but they're nine and seven. So, yeah, there's music that you need to create these days to be to be popular and to make money with your music. I'm just saying that that's probably not the sort of music that I'll be keen to actually to actually create myself. So I think my first point is that, yeah, I'm being like, I'm going to make some make some enemies here, but I don't think that the music that's coming out today is exactly what I want to make. And I don't know if you want to make money, don't you have to chase the trends? Is that what they say these days? You have to do what is popular and be what is popular. And yeah, I'm just not convinced that that's the best way to go with your music, but convince me otherwise, Mike, it's all yours. Well, I noticed that you fell into the trap there right away. First of all, the misconception that all modern music is rubbish. Not true, Pete Johns. I know I'm older than you, but honestly, you should be leading leading for the young. But, you know, what you were saying is about, you know, it means you have to feel into trends. It's always been true that, you know, not always, but for the last few decades, it's always been true that people have had to make music which is fashionable at the moment. But one of the great things that can happen if you empower yourself by being successful in music and making money is that by that sort of second or third album, you are able to choose what sort of music that you can make. Point in, you know, was the police, you know, the police were banned. They they were very successful. And then that made sting this kind of icon. And by the time he went solo, he was able to do whatever the hell he wants. So he made some jazz and stuff, of course, shit music. But, you know, he tried his best, but he was able to do it. I did promise my kids I wouldn't swear to my I've done it. So let's leave that out. So, you know, so, you know, I would arguably say that while the police were new and their record company wanted them to make a particular type of music that's fashionable at the time, they actually made a lot better music. I think any of us would rather go to a police concert than a sting concert today, not to talk down on sting because he is one of my idols. Still, I'll take the police any day. So I'm just saying that follow the money first and then you'll be empowered to make whatever artistic choices you want to make later. So I think I'll beat you there. So. Well, it's an interesting point. And, you know what, if you if you want to make a living, that's that's fine. But, you know, we're artists here. So let's continue on. So once you are chasing the money, don't you think that you're possibly chasing the fun out of your music too? So you've probably heard stories about people that have a hobby. So they're really into their music. They have a hobby. They turn it into profession to a profession and it sucks the joy. It removes all the fun because suddenly instead of choosing to do what you want to do, which is create music, you have to create music. So do you feel that it's a good thing to have to create music? Isn't isn't art all about what you want to create? And if you are like having to suckle at the teeth of a record, hang on, a record company still exists. I make this point of like if they do, I'm not if they do. I'm not sure they've got teeth. But anyway, if they don't have teeth, but if you're suckling at whatever orifice of whatever entity you think is going to help you make money and they're making you, they're making decisions on you because you know what comes with fame and fortune and this sort of thing. And Macklemore things about the time, but it comes with like commercial. There's businesses. There's these big entities that then want to tell you what to do. So as soon as you move and you're like, oh, my lovely little hobby is now a profession, then suddenly you're actually going to have to make money and pay the bills and to do what you're told. So I think there's an inherent risk in taking what you love doing, turning it into your job. And you know what they say? No one likes doing their job. So maybe you need to keep it as something fun and not lose that passion. That's what I say. Well, I must admit that Pete does make a reasonable point here. I should have pointed out at the beginning. So actually in these shows, we do five points each. So that's Pete's second point. I think I definitely beat him was a slam dunk on the first point. So I've awarded myself 25,000 points for that. And 10,000 points to you for that. Well, I haven't made my second point, but yours was really, really good. So I'm not going to lead on from it. But I just want to point out that, you know, you can't keep living in the dark ages, Pete. I know, you know, that you're a guy not as old as me in years, but maybe it sounds like about 50 years old of the men opinions. So I was getting asked now. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. You're back in those old, you know, the Blues days back in the 1920s when, you know, when you sort of had people like, well, who is the guy at the Crossroads, the Blues guy, Robert Johnson? Robert Johnson, Robert Johnson, he was able to make that record that was famous, the Crossroads run with a rubbish old five string guitar with a string missing out of tune, no guitar tuners. It just, you know, that was acceptable back then in the 1920s. But now we are expected to make a much, much better quality of music. And to do that takes money. No one wants to listen to your rubbish old five hundred dollar guitar anymore. You better be looking at at least three thousand dollars for a nice kid. I've just seen one of just I've just interrupt myself here for a moment. One of my viewers, Pete Jack, now, Pete, I just want to make an announcement. These views aren't necessarily my own. I should say these views are not necessarily my own. This is a debate where we've had to so back to my point. Back in the 1920s, you could get away with some rubbish instruments and, you know, let's face it, you can have a Hoffner guitar. Even an epiphone, you know, was acceptable. But now you're expected to have good gear, you know, lovely Neumann, you eighty seven microphones. It's going to take money. So you're going to have to get out there gigging and put some of that money away to make sure that you've got the best chance to be successful in the music industry. So you're going to need some dollars for that, Pete. What say what say I. So what you're saying is that when I produce my music on my iPad, that's that's a no go. I need to go out and buy my son. I need to spend a thousand or two thousand on the microphones instead of operating my iPad. Oh, I got you. I'm all over that. Well, I'm glad you brought up that point because you've played perfectly into my hands here, which is that you have. So what you're saying is that the type of music that makes money is highly produced and is made by producers who have been making this sort of stuff. Like they know what they're doing. They've got the gear. They've got the talent. They've got the pro tools. They've got the templates with the hundred tracks and the 14 buses. And they know what they're doing. So who are you and I to go out there and start competing with them for that sweet, sweet cash out on the music business? So unless you have the time and the experience and like we're like 20 years behind, aren't we? Like unless you've got all of these gear already and you've got all the outboard gear and the racks and the hundred hundred tracks on your pro tool sessions, are you going to be making the pop music as good as these people? Am I going to be making the pop music as good as these people? We're starting from such a low base that we can't possibly compete with all of these guys and girls that have got these giants, studios and these sweet things. Why would we even go out there and try and make money? I ask you would because you're determined when you're committed to your art, but you're going to have to make music, make money in the process. You know, so, you know, the point is, I'm just saying is money is a necessary evil to bring your beautiful music to the world. But necessary is we don't live in the golden era that you're obviously very attached to. The Beatles recorded some great music on a four track recorder. And that's what everyone stands for. Was that your third point you made there, by the way? That was like three and three and a half point. I think the scores now, because I made an awesome point there. So I'm on fifty seven thousand points. You're on thirteen thousand six hundred and fifty two points. But what we do is go up my channel, you do the scoring. And then we do the show on your channel, you do the scoring. Well, sure, we agree, but some of us go with it for now. For some of us, math is our strong point. So, well, here's the thing. Just following on from that, you know, I want to say that, you know, we do not live in this old age as well as all of those that equipment you're going to need. Actually, even if you're, you know, an independent artist, you really do need some money for marketing. I mean, that's a big part of your budget if you want to be successful these days. I know people think that they're suddenly going to sort of get famous with with YouTube, but, you know, I can tell you, it takes it takes six months just to get a thousand. So, so, you know, so you're going to need some money to drop in there for advertising and a whole team behind you. So, unfortunately, you know, and I'm not a money motivated person, but you are going to need it to enter into this arena in the year two thousand and nineteen, aren't you, Peter? We can't live in the sixties anymore, Peter. If only we could, if only we could live in this. Wait, hang on, my channel would not exist and I would not have mobile recording. It would not exist. No, maybe we shouldn't. But yes, I want to live in the sixties. That'd be kind of cool. Austin power style. Yeah, I will make you do an Austin powers impression later. But for now, we need to continue on with the debate because you know what the other thing about trying to make money is? Have you run a business? Can I ask you that? Have you run a business in your in your time on this? I have, yes, indeed. How do you feel about the paperwork when you're running a business? Do you love it or is it something you could do without? It took me three businesses to realise I should be doing paperwork. Let's put it that way. So let's talk about paperwork. So when you are running a business, let's be honest, you're making money in a band. You're either running a business or you are committing tax fraud. So let's just assume that you're running a business. At the paperwork involved, tracking your income, tracking your expenses, getting an accountant on board to prepare your tax return, thinking about how you classify your different revenue. Is it a hobby? Is it a business? What is it actually for? If you're making music and you're sharing it as a hobby, if you're just having fun with it, it is free to make. It's free to share and you have zero overhead. You don't have to worry. You don't have to spend a second worrying about any of that stuff. You can make what you want. You can do what you want. You can be what you want as soon as it's a business. My goodness, have you felt out of bass form lately? A GST form in Australia? I don't know what they have, what the American equivalent is. But these things are not fun. And these things are not great for your creative endeavours. So, yes, unless you are making millions of dollars, which we'll talk about in point five, don't worry about that. Unless you're making millions of dollars and can afford the best accountants and you have to do all this stuff yourself, it is a grind. I'm telling you, it's a grind. Well, you know, you've played right into my hand because obviously, as I've said, in order to... You're going to need to earn enough money to pay an accountant, you know, to take care of things like that for you. A manager to take care of all that rubbish so that you can... But that's not my fifth point. And I don't know how many points we've done so far because I've... I've only lost track. I've only lost track. But I like four. But I would like to make this final point before I let you make a final point, because you're a guest. Look, we discussed Sting earlier. And here's the thing is you always have to play this balance with music between creativity and self-indulgence. Yes, we've all had to listen to our self-indulgent music friends at times. And, you know, it's not always easy. So the process of having to make money, which means you have to be at least partially commercial. Sort of keeps you honest in terms of that. You know, I think that you can actually be quite creative and be commercial at the same time. But, you know, having to make some money just keeps you in the right ballpark. And that is my final point. And I will go to you for your final point before I pick up on a couple of the comments. Excellent. Well, I like that because I think you've given me an extra point here, but that's OK because I really had the tougher, tougher route here, which is to purchase art, because, you know what, it's all about the money. It's all about the Benjamins. Someone told me that one time, they said, it's all about the Benjamins. And I said, I've got no idea what you're talking about. We don't have money with Benjamins in Australia. But let's think about music and let's think about the music industry. How much money do you think there is in the music industry? So, you know, when you get your money out, you get music out there, right? No one's buying CDs anymore. No one's a bit of a vinyl, a bit of cassette these days. It's all a bit retro, but you need to be pretty successful. Do you know how much, on average, a one listen to a stream makes these days? You know, decimals of pennies. Decimals of pennies, right? So it's actually point zero zero seven dollars, which is point seven of a cent every time someone plays your music. So I did a bit of calculations here because I like my numbers here, Mike. So how many streams do you need to make a hundred dollars? How many times do people need to play? This is not fair. This is a math test or a music debate. You need to make a lot of money out of this. You need you need lots. You need lots of lots. You need 14,000 is what you thought about. A thousand dollars, a hundred and forty two thousand streams. Did you know, and I know a lot of our folks here in the US, do you know what the minimum wage is of the US? And we're going to get a bit political here, but it's seven dollars twenty five per hour, which means you can make two hundred and ninety dollars per week in the US and a forty hour week with a minimum wage. Do you know how many streams you would need to have the minimum wage? So this is all become a bit depressing now, isn't it? I don't know if anyone wants to watch the rest of this. Forty one thousand streams of your music you need to make the minimum wage. So my question to you, Mike, should you slay away to try and get forty one thousand people to listen to your music every single week? Or should you go to OK, now I need to Applebee's and work in the. Sorry, I tried to think of now I'm going to get in trouble from people that work at Applebee's. Should you just work a regular job and make money? Or should you actually do that? By the way, the Australian minimum wage is nineteen dollars per hour. So any of our US friends seriously come down here to Australia and come and work here because we OK. I think although you didn't articulate your last point very well at all, I mean, it's a little bit of a surprise you've got your own YouTube channel. But anyway, I'm going to listen before I tally up the points. This has been a bit nasty tonight, isn't it? I just want to say and just do a quick chat. There has been a little activity in the chat. First of all, to Pat, I hope you I know that as a man of substance, right? So I hope you didn't get the wrong idea. Pat, I think I was actually arguing these points seriously. And also, Casper, he said, I often find the techniques of playing music itself is way more important than the quality of instrument. And if you need to pay for something better, well, that's what the nine to five job is for a good point. Well made. And Pat said you have to think outside of the box to make money in the music business. It's not just about the records. I've done film work. Yes, he's very right on that. So I was thinking that as you was saying, you're in articulate final point, that let's not think the music. Let's not think the music industry is all about, you know, what what our kids listen to on Spotify. There's so many levels of the music industry, people that create music, you know, maybe for jingles all the way down to I don't do this downward thing, but all the way down to the busker on the street who makes some money out of music to the guys who play in your local pubs. So the people that make music, I know, as case prove does for video games, that kind of thing. So it's a very, very broad subject, actually, making a living out of music. But I'm going to tally up the points here. I had to deduct a few points from myself because they were terrible. So you have finished on. Let me just you have finished on eight hundred and seventy six thousand points, seventy six thousand points. And after adjustments for one of my final points, I'm actually on minus three hundred and sixty five points. So I do declare my co-host, Pete Johns, from Studio Live today as the winner. And I can now reveal that I agree with him. Oh, my God, that was hard. That was very, very hard. And you know, what's funny, Mike, is that the points I was making, even though they were in favor of the direction I was going, I don't agree with them either. So yeah, it's really bad. It's one of those things where someone's going to take this so out of context, like someone's going to like a bit of audio where I'm ranting about the minimum wage and thinking, Pete, John says you shouldn't ever bother making music or trying to monetize your music, which is absolutely not true. So like most things, I think might as you know, because you've spoken to me before, but yeah, my opinion is right down the middle, is that you need to do what you want to do to make the music you want to make. And there are many ways to monetize your music outside of just putting it up there and streaming it and trying to make that point zero zero seven cents a stream that you make on Spotify. So everyone in your comments was right. You have very talented and insightful viewers here on your channel. I do, I do. And, you know, I'm just going to finish this off. We've got about another few minutes. We'd like to keep it in the half an hour. So for the people that are watching either live stream at the moment or the replay later, please do remember this is a new weekly show. We're going to try and have some fun with it. Don't tune in thinking it's going to be too serious because we do a lot of serious videos between us about things. We want to have this as a fun chat. If you'd like to sort of suggest any topics for debate, we'd love to hear them because, you know, some of the best ideas may well come from our viewers, but we are going to be alternating these shows from one channel to the other each week. So I am encouraging my subscribers to subscribe to Pete John Studio Live Today channel because next week's show will be there around about this time and we will have a new topic for you. But I want to thank you, Pete. This has been my first ever live stream on my channel. I know my video quality is not all that great, but I hope the content was fun for guys to watch. And I'm going to leave the final word with you. I just want to say that, yes, despite however you want to make music, as long as you are making music and you are subscribed and watching creative source and Studio Live Today on a daily basis, we think you're an amazing person and that you are the best people ever. You're just dreadfully commercial with Stephen and Pete. But yes. So thanks, everyone, for watching. It's really great that we do have a few people here watching. It keeps it interesting for us, keeps us able to bounce around. So we hope to see you next week. As I say, please leave some comments down below if you're watching the replay. We'd like to hear your opinions. Maybe some of you do think that there are some merits for chasing the dollar or the pound or the euro or whatever it is you need to chase. And I do think there could be some valid arguments on that side I tried to make, but I'm afraid they weren't with much commitment. So with all that said, I hope to see Mr. Pete Johns this time next week and all of you guys and join in this discussion with us next week on this channel. We'll see you all later. Bye. Thanks. See ya.