 Hey, Cupcon Giants family, welcome. And today's guest, Heather Bleece, has a remarkable story that I'm so delighted to share with you. Some of you may have heard a portion of her story on a previous YouTube live that I had, but this is the actual story, the one-on-one interview that we've all been waiting for, how to build out a massive contact center using federal government contracts. And she shows us everything she did and how she did it. So stay tuned for this upcoming video with Heather Bleece. I'm Heather Bleece and my company is called Saviolinks. Wow, Saviolinks. I was actually trying to figure out how to say that. And- I didn't say you hadn't even tried- I did not. Up until this point in time. That's very savvy of you. I was waiting, well, I actually, so just before we technically started, what I do, and I didn't make it to you, I did make it, I'll share it, but I normally watch an interview with a person like on YouTube to see how they pronounce their last names and a company name, so I can get it right. That's a good idea. Yeah. That's a tip that I've just learned from you, right? Thank you. So that's a, well, so another tip I'll tell you is interesting. I have so many of my friends that don't Google me. So they'll ask me questions and I'll say, you know, maybe you should Google me, right? And what I've learned is you can actually Google anybody. And we forget that a lot of times when we're asking questions or asking for help, we never actually bother Googling people. So it's remarkable how many of the people that I've known for years don't even know what I do. And so they'll ask me questions that I said, if you had just looked me up for maybe two seconds, you might find out that I'm very well versed in this particular subject or, you know, I have a lot of experience in this area, but they never bother Googling someone. So that's another tip that I give people. All right. Google your friends. Sometimes, like if you don't, you're like, I'm really unsure about what is, what does Jean really do? Google her and see if anything pops up. Good idea. I think I'll Google my kids, see what they're up to. Oh, no. Well, I'll tell you this about kids. If you tell your kids, how old are they? They are 30, 28, 26, and 17. The 17-year-old will appreciate you being on YouTube with a YouTuber. Right. And they're all very well versed in social media. So. Right. But the new generation of kids, like even the teenagers, they look up more to YouTubers than they do to actors and actresses. Oh, I know. I know. They don't, they don't watch TV. They don't watch TV. Or they'll watch YouTube on TV. Right. That's good. Right. They watch YouTube on TV. So if you want, if you want to make a cool impression with any teenager, just say, hey, I was on with a YouTuber today and they'll just think you're the coolest person, right? Use it and let me know how it goes. I will. It never disappoints. I even do it to like pizza guys sometimes. I'll do it along. I just random people. And they're like, in fact, I had a guy come for like a campaign to your house where they'd taken, you know, doing the campaign surveys. And I said, you know, I told him and said, hey, you know, I'm a YouTuber. And the guy goes, YouTuber. Pulls it up and he looks it up and he's like, wow. And it just, it just changes. You're famous. You're famous. It changes their perspective. So, but that's, yeah, that's another interesting point. So, but back to your story, Heather, because I was reading just before we came on today, a lot about you and your history and you have a fascinating story to tell. And so we definitely want to dive into that story today and have you share a little bit about how you started Savvy Links and the business. But before we get into Savvy Links, can we talk first about the actual order of how did you get into that space? I was reading about you helping found another company in a similar marketplace that you built out called EnvisionNet. Right. Right. Tell us a little bit about that. That was a company that I started back in 1995, which is probably long, you know, probably before you were born, but so yeah, out of college, I have an electrical engineering degree and I worked for Digital Equipment Corporation for 10 years. And the company that I was, the company or the plant that I was working in was put on the market for sale. And long story short is, I didn't really want to go with the sale of the digital manufacturing plant. And so without really knowing what I was getting into, I started a company called EnvisionNet and to provide tech support services to digital and just hired two people and bootstrapped that company, which is a contact center company. And that was quite a wild ride. It grew from the me and two other people that I had hired to a company of 2,500 people and six or seven rounds of venture capital and big clients like Microsoft and Dell. It ended though in chapter 11 bankruptcy. It was an issue with actually one of our larger customers signed us up for some big contracts and then withdrew quickly and we ended up kind of holding the bag and we're not financially strong enough to weather the storm. So anyway, wrap it up. And we ended up having, we sold the company and it was operating an operating entity but it was definitely a learning experience for me. Wow. So you went through venture capital funding for that company? A lot of it. It seemed like that was most of all that I did. It's no time consuming. That's very fascinating. Now, I see you were engineer at Digital Equipment Corporation. How did an engineer go to starting a business to do contact service work? Well, as I mentioned, I had three kids. They were all under the age of four at that time. Had a decent job at Digital and I was managing a little group that did tech support services for Digital for another entity in Massachusetts. And I didn't want, I wasn't sure what my future was going to hold with the manufacturing plant being sold. So the idea popped into my head, well, perhaps I could start my own company, hire those couple of engineers and then contract back to Digital for those services that we were currently providing. And that was how my mind was thinking, but it was a huge step. And I kept weighing, should I go for it? There's something driving me to wanna do it, but then it's like, it's so risky. And I didn't have any of the money to do it. I had to actually sell, we had to, my husband and I had to sell our house to actually start that company. Did you really? Okay. I like that. That's a great, because a lot of people ask questions, how do we start a business? How do we get that first contract? What do we have to do? And I've suggested to people, maybe they have to relocate from the very expensive New York real estate market to a less expensive marketplace to cut down on expenses. But you actually sold a house. Right. And moved into a second floor apartment of a house, another house with the three little kids. And that was the environment starting the company. And it is kind of, I think entrepreneurs, for me it was, I was all in. And it was the same thing with Saviolings. It wasn't that I had a lot of money and this was just a trial. It was in both cases, either it works or it's gonna hurt. So. I like that one. I like that one. I like that one. Right. So yeah, all in. And the company was very successful for a number of years, but we just were on that verge in 2000, around 2000 with a big dot com crash. And it was a bit of a, okay, that makes that connection make sense now. Okay. Right, right. So that was a great learning experience. And many of the learnings of Envisionet were carried with me, of course, through the beginning of Saviolings, which was my second attempt of growing a company in this industry. So all the mistakes that I made at Envisionet, I did not make in Saviolings. So. No, that's wonderful. Can you name a couple of those things that may stand out that you remember that would help someone else, right? To avoid. Well, you know, one of the, I have lots of things. You know, I could write a book about the things to avoid, but one of my kids actually asked me that question. You know, what really was different about your experience with Envisionet versus where you are now with Saviolings? And one of the biggest things that I took away is that, you know, my son was asking, he's like, how old were you when you started Envisionet? I was 30 years old. Okay. And I doubt, you know, I think what I lacked was belief in myself. I knew the things that in my heart, what I needed to do and what decisions were right, what decisions may need to be looked at. But I deferred to people that seemed to have more experience or, you know, the venture capitalists would try to say, oh, you need to hire somebody to run your company, not you. Because you don't, you know, because you're only 30 years old. You're an engineer. How do you know how to run your company? And so I listened to them and it's like, well, I thought I was doing a pretty good job, but okay, and I hired a CEO and it was the worst decision ever. And, you know, it took me two years to separate that person out of the company and it was destructive. But I should have listened to myself and had more confidence in myself then. I mean, not to say that another thing that I think is really important for entrepreneurs who are just trying to start a company or have started a company is to, you know, ask for advice and, you know, seek counsel from people that have done this before, just like what you're offering to do through this podcast is share learnings with other people. But, you know, so having a network of people that you can ask and, you know, what was your experience or do you know how to do this? You know, that's extremely helpful, but at the end of the day, you know, as the owner or, you know, as a CEO, as the founder, you know, the decision comes back to one that you've got to be comfortable with. And, you know, I think listening, you know, having the confidence to listen to myself and my own instincts was lacking back when I was 30, not so much this time. I like that one. But I would, I guess my, I would have a differing opinion. Looking at someone who was 30 that raised venture capital money is a major effort. So I believe you did have confidence, right? Right. Have you ever raised money like that? Not venture capital, no. I've raised some little money, not major money, very little, a couple hundred thousand maybe. Right, well, that's actually with this, with savvy links, I raised a little money at the beginning with some angel investors. Okay. It's not nearly as rigorous as, you know, doing a formal venture capital funding, but that's it. And just that, just one, one small investment of local regional investors. And, you know, that was another difference between Envisionet and Saviolings. And we became profitable much more quickly and didn't need to raise the additional money. And so it's, for me, that allows me the time to work on really building the business and focusing on the business and not on trying to, you know, stop the bleeding or, you know, or fund growth that's outstripping the profits of the company. Not to say that the, you know, the first couple of years of starting Saviolings were hellish. You know, they just, the, you know, when you're starting from nothing and trying to build a foundation for a company and, you know, get to a point of profitability and, you know, typically companies aren't profitable for a couple of years as until the, you know, things start to flow. Those are, that's tough time. You know, especially, you know, I can't even tell you how many times I emptied my bank account to, you know, my personal bank account every minute, every dollar I had to fund payroll. That is what has been my, it was my experience early on. I'm so glad to be beyond that point. You know, that's tough, but I think, you know, it's the reality for a lot of people who are all in with their companies. We're gonna, that's gonna be our theme for today's, right? It's being all in with your business and your company. I like that theme. What, it appears there was an eight-year gap between when you finish with Envisionette to where you start SaviLinks. What was the mindset going into launching SaviLinks? What were you thinking? What, you know, what was going around in your head that said, you know what? I'm gonna get back into this, I'm gonna start again. Well, you know, after Envisionette, you know, I was not planning to go into this business ever again. You know, but, and you know, I had a baby, my fourth child, and I had had three boys and then Envisionette, and then my daughter, so it was actually really nice with, I also had a reprieve when I had my daughter else I could enjoy her first year, and I spent the majority of that year with her and not working, but you know, over time, I ended up doing some consulting projects, helping some other people with the launch of their companies, helping them to raise money and so forth. But eventually the company that purchased my first year with my old company, Envisionette, was purchased then by another company. And that company called and their CEO called and said, hey, you know, we need some help with business development and you know, would you be willing to come on board and lead that function for us? And so I, it was at a point where, well, bottom line is I said yes. And it was, they were based out of Atlanta. After six months, they were specifically interested in government contracting. And I had no idea, I didn't know government contracting at all, but I was willing to take it on and try. And as a larger company that you know, it was not a small business at all. It had been in business for quite a while. It was, they had no past performance. After six months, the CEO said to me, well, well, I actually shared in a conversation, I said, I'm not sure how, unless you acquire a company that has government contracts, I don't know how you're gonna get into the market because you don't have any of those things that- Right, that's unique. Yeah. Look at the chicken box. And, but then it occurred to me. It's like, well, I could start a company and it would be a woman owned small business. And perhaps if you helped me with it, then perhaps I could, you know, subcontract back to you eventually. And it got me thinking about the concept of and looking up, you know, what are small business certifications? And the area that I lived in, the Brunswick, Maine area had a base that had just closed. And so they were designated as a hub zone area. I thought, well, you know, if I could become hub zone certified a woman owned small business, you know, why not start a business and the contracts would just come to me and I'd employ a lot of people and instead of us just paying out taxes all the time. So we know why not be able to create the jobs here where we need them and be an employer of the federal government. So that was my, you know, Rose Glass' idea of, you know, how, you know, starting the company and being focused on trying to win federal contracts. Now, is Savvy systems different from Savvy links? Savvy systems was another company that I started during that in between time. Okay, okay. And yes, it was very different. And it was actually the name Savvy S-A-V-I Superior Audio Video Integration. So. Oh. You are an engineer. Right. You are an engineer. I, you know what? I had, so I'm an engineer also industrial system engineer. And my first company was called Wireless Integration Multimedia Service Provider, W-I-M-S-P, right? And when I talk to people, they go, it spells whips. I'm like, no, it doesn't spell whips. But if you switch around the letters, it, you know, you could see it as whips, but ah, I don't like that. So Savvy, it does, it is an acronym for something. Right. So, yeah, so that was, you know, a very different company, you know, also service oriented, but so I was doing some lighting, automated lighting and, you know, anyway. Long story short, as I ended up merging that business with another contracting business locally, which was why it was a good time for me to look at the other opportunity and doing business development for that other company, even though that didn't last long because I realized that, you know, there was a potential of, you know, I couldn't get that idea out of my head that there's some business here. And, you know, federal contracts, you know, it would be, it would, it was new to me. I had no idea, you know, what that even meant, but it seemed like those programs were set up for a reason, with the SBA, you know, the HUBZone, Women on Small Business. And, you know, I was gonna figure out how to use those to create a business. And so how did that work out for you? Well, the other big piece that was a critical component was I met with the redevelopers of the military base that was closed, that was closing. So this was, and it was, you know, because I was interested in, you know, as looking ahead at government contracting, the HUBZone certification was important. And so I had to locate the business on the old Navy Air Base in order to be at the headquarters in the HUBZone. And, you know, I was still kind of at that point deciding, should I go for it or, you know, start another business or not? It's like such a huge undertaking. And I guess, you know, two things. One is I met with the executive director and he shared with me that they had funding programs to help businesses get off the ground. It's like, you know, there's this, you know, this particular program that you could apply to. We have, you know, a fund and, you know, suddenly, you know, there was a very real way to finance the start of the business where, you know, through these various programs. But there's always the question that, you know, came back to me and it was the reason I started envision it back when I was 30, where, you know, it was a huge risk. And I pictured myself, you know, in the nursing home, you know, 95 years old and thinking to myself, well, geez, I wonder what would have happened had I tried starting that business back when I was 30. You know, my life would have been, you know, would it have been successful or would it not have been successful? And, you know, I got to thinking that, you know, both within vision and savvy links, you know, I convinced myself that I had to try because I would not be able to forgive myself for not trying. And so- I don't know if you know this, but Jeff Beasel said the same thing. Oh, he did. He did. He was interviewed by his brother and he said, in an article, they said, what made you start Amazon? He said, I just pictured myself at, you know, 90 years old and I look back and I want to have the least amount of regrets as possible. Interesting. Well, there. So you have the mind of Jeff Beasel. Or he has my mind actually. Oh, Jeff Beasel has Heather's mind. Okay, I'll go for that. No. No, I just, no, it's very interesting that that's exactly what he said, the same thing. Right. Well, I like that. That's interesting. The big decision, as you know. Yeah. Well, I think as entrepreneurs, what I've found is sometimes we have to psych ourselves up, right? To get into the game, to be able to do these things because like you said, it is, I mean, you're basically sinking or swimming, right? That's the way you describe it. You're all in. I know oftentimes for me, when I make decisions, like for example, I'm going to venture out of something new this week. I, you know, I say, I treat it like an experiment. So I just say, hey, it's an experiment. I'm going to try it. We're going to see how it works. And it takes away the pressure off, you know, for me at least, and trying something new and different because I said, well, if I, you know, if I don't try the, it's just an experiment. So I'm going to learn from the outcome regardless of what that looks like. And that's the way that I take on new tasks. That's a good perspective. Right. And I've shared it with a lot of people and they help, it helps them because a lot of people are so afraid. So I just say, look, just treat it like an experiment. And that leaves you with fear. If you can do that, you know, for me, it had, it was sink or swim because, you know, financially, you know, I couldn't, it was, it wasn't just a financial experience, experiment. No, no, right. No, no, no. Starting a business, yeah, I get it. But if you, you know, if you can do it in a more moderate way where you're not, you know, where it's not as risky, that's great. I just didn't have that luxury. Right, right, I see. I see. So you're talking with the redevelopers, the executive director, and they're telling you about different programs. Right. And so, so I applied for, you know, all the funding that I could. And launched, you know, launched the company, you know, worked on the business plans. And, you know, there's always that go, no go. It's like when you, you know, when you sign the lease, a five-year lease for a new space and, you know, sign on the dotted line for the funding and all that stuff. You know, I, you know, finally got to the point where, you know, I had made those commitments and, you know, started the company and had one client lined up. And so, you know, I hired two people to help me build out the technology and, you know, help with the hiring of, you know, a team of 20 people to serve that first contract. And, you know, that was the beginning. Can I ask some clarifying questions? I know people are going to ask. They're going to, you said you had some, some programs. What were some of the programs that you took advantage of for funding in the beginning? Can you remember them? They, there was a, there was a small business. It was a regional small business development loan. Okay. And then there was another, it was also, these were, I think, state specific loans. They were not federal programs. There was one that was called, it was the MRDA loan. So it was tied to a regional. FISTRIC or something. Okay. Right. And that one was very specifically used to help build out the facility by the computers. And there was, you know, there's that other loan. It was like a $50,000 loan with a regional development authority. And so- We have those, those were everywhere. Yeah. So that's good information because we have those here in Miami, we have the Biscayne foundation that offers $50,000 loans starting out. Right. Right. Okay. So, you know, those were the types. So they, and that, you know, without those loans, I don't know that I would have started the company because I, you have, you know, you need to have some type of funding lined up to, you know, I'm sure people don't anticipate the amount of funding or they probably underestimate the amount of funding that it actually takes. Right. We all do. Yeah. No banks reached out to help you out? No. I like that answer. No. No. I mean, thanks. There's all the money in the world when you don't need it. That's right. And then when you need it, that's right. Thank you, Heather. A lot of people think, well, Eric, if I just get a contract, won't the bank fund that contract? I said, I don't know any banks like that. So I'm asking, maybe up there, maybe Maine, they do something different. No, it's amazing that, but they, they really are not, banks don't really, as you well know, they're, they're risk adverse. So, but one thing that I did end up using early on that was expensive money, but it was pretty easy to come by, was receivables financing. So there were, you know, there are companies out there that will allow you to, you know, if you have solid contracts with customers, they'll, you know, they'll kind of allow you to, to borrow up to 90% of the receivable. And so that actually was a bridge that helped me through a year, or a year and a half before I could actually secure a bank line of credit. Okay, so that's good, that's helpful. That's great information to share with people. The accounts receivable financing. Right. So that, and then, and then I did also go to a local angels group, you know, the financing angels. And every state has, has those types of organizations that are looking to individuals that are collectively looking to invest in, and help local businesses get off the ground. Were they able to help you at all? Yes, I did close a round early on with a group called main angels. And so there were probably like 10 people, 10 to 12 people that each individually invested at, you know, at the same time, same terms. Okay. Yeah, and that was very helpful also. Let me ask this question. How did you learn about like what were the appropriate terms to do for angel? You know, that's something that I struggled with. Well, the, how did I know that? Let's see. I think. Right, I mean, you see that stuff, you just do it automatically, you know? Well, you know, I ended up having, I think is what's really important is having and finding, you know, a good attorney and a good CPA, you know, having those, although expensive for a new company, having, you know, those types of trusted advisors, you know, that's critical. And so, that's, you know, working with, you know, at my attorneys in terms of the terms and so forth. And I had quite a lot of experience with those types of contracts and agreements having, you know, having done the venture capital rounds for, but, you know, it was pretty much just the, you know, the attorneys and the language was pretty standard, but then, you know, negotiating the value, that has to come into play as well. Right, right. Yeah, I think that was the hard part for most people is, you know, what is the value? And, you know, how soon can you, and again, I don't know the structure of the deal, but, you know, I understand most state, most investors have a set amount of time in which they want their money and return back to them. Right, so it's like, what's the value of the company today and how quickly can I get my money back out of this and what type of return am I looking at in that period? Right, yeah. Okay, but your attorneys, your CPA helped you kind of manage, navigate through that. Right, and that was the only, that's the only money that I've had to raise, you know, for this company. Okay. And which is a big relief because it's, you know, as I mentioned, it takes a lot of time to raise venture capital and like so. Okay. And I don't have a board of directors, you know, since I, you know, I, Was that a choice? That you just, did you, I mean, did you, is there a reason why not? Or is there a reason why not? Oftentimes, the reason I had a board of directors with EnvisionNet was that, and the, at any time, you know, you accept funding of a sizable sort, then, you know, people want to have the ability to monitor what's going on in the company. And that's the, you know, they want a seat on the board and, you know, they own a big enough chunk of the company so they can justify being able to help with certain, you know, certain decisions. And so, in any case, you know, with this company, I was fortunate not to have to rely on venture capital funding. And, you know, the board of, you know, boards can be great, but, you know, board of advisors is, is more what, you know, what is appropriate for a company that is, you know, owned by, you know, one majority shareholder. Right, okay, okay. So you start off with the first customer. You said you hired two people to build out the technology and also to recruit the first 20 persons that you need to fulfill that particular job. Right. I was actually, that was, that brings me to a question I was going to ask later on, but, you know, and looking at your website, it looks like you're in four or five different market segments and it looks like you've got to train people up in each one of those. I mean, that seems like a huge undertaking for me. Well, it's, I mean, you know, it is absolutely, but, you know, the company, you know, having started with, you know, one person and three people, then 20 people, you know, all serving, you know, a couple of small, small clients and then you add another contract and then, you know, add the training and then it's like, oh, this, you know, a couple of months later than another contract and then, you know, I'm doing quick books and paying the bills and, you know, hiring people and helping with the training and, you know, eventually it's like, oh, I need to get some accounting help in here. And so, you know, it's just, it's slowly adding on, adding on and evolving and, you know, it's over, you know, well, the company is seven years old. So it's over a period of seven years and seven years of rapid growth, you know, we have grown quickly, but, you know, but methodically and, you know, evolving those lines of business as we have added contracts in those sectors, essentially. So it doesn't happen overnight, I guess is what I'm saying. I know, I would agree with you. And yes, we'll talk about the ink ratings that you received. When you were looking for or building out the training for the first 20 people, right, what did that look like? You know, what did that, no, I'll let you finish. Well, and it was a matter of, you know, it's kind of like trial by fire. It's like, we have a contract. It's like, we need to train people. It's like, well, let's see, let me look up. There's some mandated training from the state. You know, we've got to figure out, you know, sexual harassment and, you know, video terminal display and, you know, all of these other, you know, trainings that have to happen just because you are an employer, employing people, but then the contract specific training, you know, what is it, what types of calls are we going to be receiving? And, you know, how do we access the knowledge base so that we can answer calls on your behalf? You know, it's, the work that, you know, this is kind of part of our core business is understanding our client business and accessing tools so that we can provide guidance and either technical support or customer service answers to their customers who are inquiring to us by a phone call or email or however. That's what we do and we do it in all different ways. We develop it ourselves if our clients don't have it, all prepared, but, you know, oftentimes they, you know, they do have training materials that we can use. And so, yeah. I'm imagining that there are already players in this marketplace when you came into it, right? Right. Did you, did people move their business and move, switch over to you or your company or are these new companies that are starting out and they need to expand and grow? And so they're hiring you to help them with that? I'm trying to get a feel for the landscape. Well, those are, that's exactly the two sectors that we typically are dealing with companies that are growing very quickly and they realize that they need to focus on their core, their core business and whatever it might be, it might be a technology, it might be a service that they provide. And they realize that if they work with us that we can, they don't want their engineers taking calls and trying to fix those kinds of problems. They want to be focused on growing their core business. And so that's why they call us so that we can take their customer calls and inquiries on their behalf. And that's all we do, that's our core business and we do that very well. And so that's one aspect of the business that we support. And the other sector is the government sector. As I mentioned, we sought the small business certifications, woman owned small business first and they took us three tries to get HUBZone certified. It was, it's really, it was hard. But just anyway, because we had, by the time we went for that certification we probably had like a hundred or 200 employees. So to collect all the information on all of those employees was a big task. So in any case, we ended up with our first government contract back in 2014. And the reason we were selected to work with this big contractor was that they had small business goals. And the system works. They, the small business goals, HUBZone, oftentimes the Department of Labor or OIG, they're looking for part of education. They've got agency goals where they want 3% of all their revenues going to HUBZone or going to woman owned small business or veteran owned businesses. And that's how we ended up with our first government contract and has helped us tremendously with growing as a subcontractor to these bigger contractors who need to satisfy those small business goals. But Heather, they had to find you. How did they find you or did you find them? Well, there's... Because when I went and I want to say that only because I know someone's going to hear this and I say, oh, if I get registered and I get certified that someone's going to come knocking on my door. And I'm sure that's not the case for you. It's absolutely not the case. And, you know, that was one idea that I had that was, you know, totally inaccurate. But, oh, I just signed up for these programs and they'll come find me. No, not the case. It's really hard to get those, get a foot in the door in government contracting because, well, the first problem is you have to have past performance. How do you have past performance if you're pretty new company? Yeah, it's like a chicken or an egg. Exactly. That's really frustrating as a new company. They have all these great programs that are encouraging new entrepreneurs to start companies and in these small business classifications but actually getting your first contract is so tough because of that lack of experience. So, as you said, it's a chicken and an egg and, you know, not really knowing how to approach the government, you know, the government contracting arena. I took advantage of the industry days, you know, and called some of the, there are larger federal contractors that have small business goals and they have small business advocates within their own firms. And so I started to reach out to those people and just kept contacting them over and over and over and trying to create the relationships that over time would lead to, when they have an opportunity, they would think of us and eventually business would come by just the pressing and those, pressing those relationships. I'm thinking of one company where I met with this contracting, it wasn't a contracting officer but it was a small business liaison within a large federal contractor. And just, you know, every year after year after year and it's been seven years and we still haven't done work together. We've been on some things together but some of these things can take a long time. And in other cases, you know, there's if a contractor wins business, you know, and they're under contract, sometimes they can pull you in the back door and that can come, that's a much faster way to, yeah. So we started out by subcontracting with big contractors. And that's what helped us to gain our past performance. And, you know, only in the last two years have we actually evolved to the point where we are submitting bids as prime contractor. Wow. Wow, no, that's, I'm glad you pointed that distinction. The, I will say, I found it sometimes easier to be a subcontractor than a prime contractor. When you look at the paperwork and the requirements, would you agree with that? Oh, absolutely. It's a lot, it's, it typically is. I mean, it depends on the complexity of the actual bid that you're responding to. Some are not as complex as others, but, you know, they come with a lot of, there's a lot of paperwork, there's a lot to it. And even, you know, even with a subcontracting gig, if we're lack of better words, I mean. I like it. Some of them, you know, we're just renewing one now. Or we've actually, we've just finished our fifth year and we're starting a new phase, a new contract with this as a subcontractor with this particular company. And that's just oodles of paperwork. And, you know, you have to attest to this, certify this, you know, read all the fars, agree to them and on and on and on and on. It's, but that, you know, that's part of doing business with the federal government, you know. What percentage of your business is the federal government now? Well, let's see. We actually have recently started to do work with state government. Okay. Now, working with the various state governments is not as complex and doesn't come with as many of the rules as, you know, with the federal government. But I'm just thinking of picturing our financials. And I would say that probably about half of our business is federal at least. Really? Right. Wow. Maybe even more, but it's evolving, it's changing. So in the beginning, you were all, you didn't have any federal contracts when you started, right? Right. And then in 2014, you got your first one and then, wow. That's interesting. I didn't look that up. I thought it was smaller. So it's a significant part of your business now. Right. Well, I mean, number of clients, we have more commercial clients than we do the federal, but the volumes of the federal contracts are larger. So in terms of revenue. Yeah. And then we, I actually, I interviewed with Mary Corn Pearl Interactive Network and she's in a similar line of business as you are. And she said the same thing that the, in the federal world that she would get long-term contracts, which would allow her to secure and then not allow for any gaps. And so when you're making, when you're hiring people, she's in the same line of business when you're hiring people, particularly for, you can guarantee them long-term jobs and long-term positions. Right. And usually, they're five-year contracts, sometimes even longer. Right. So, yeah. Right. Now, what is your, now I changed the dynamics of that question because I was going to ask, what is your ideal customer looks like? But now that you're in a federal arena, do you have an ideal customer profile? Well, as I mentioned, we do like to balance between commercial contracts, federal and state. So, you know, on the commercial side, as we, as I mentioned, companies that are growing quickly and wanting to hire us to take their level one, level two, level three support calls or customer service inquiries, we tend to work on projects that are more complex. So, you know, it takes quite a bit of training and know how for us to be able to support our clients' customers. So, you know, but, you know, such a, we do work for federal student financial aid, for example, and signing up for insurance benefits and trying to work through the choices with the clients or various support for technology and type, technology type services and with states we're working with some to do unemployment benefits and that sort of thing. So, that, you know, that's the type of work that we focus on a little more complex. And, you know, we have with our clients, the one nice thing is that with our clients, you know, we've not lost any clients. You know, we actually just get better and better at doing work on their behalf, growing our knowledge base, our expertise. So, you know, we've had some clients, you know, for seven years, we've been doing that. Yeah, so. Okay. So, I have a question. But. I still like your answer. That's interesting. What would you say contributed to, again, I'm looking at the stats from 2013 to 2016, made the Inc. 500 list and you had that explosive revenue growth. What would you say contributed to that? You know, I would say the federal contracts because they were, you know, the first couple of contracts that we were able to win for our company, they were pretty large. I mentioned that we started, well, our first government contract, we started by hiring a team of 25 people in Mississippi of all places. And it worked out great. We delivered a great service and the subcontractor came to us and said, well, can you hire 25 more? Like, okay, can you hire 50 more? Okay. And before we knew it for a company that is growing from, you know, very, you know, teeny tiny to one that has, you know, it's getting into the millions in revenue. I mean, in a fairly short period of time, that's where, you know, ending up on number 28 on the Inc. 500 happens. It's like, you know, that first year in business, we had, you know, revenues of 120,000. By the third year, we were up to 4 million. So that's where you can make those types of numbers those types of numbers on the Inc. 500 or 5,000. It's a lot harder now. You know, if you're, you know, 16, seven or 18 million, then to make those kind of numbers, you have to pick a little Facebook or somebody. Yes, it's tougher, but we just made the list again. So we're still in it, but I don't know what number we are. So I know we're not 28. I saw you had 800% growth, right? Right. I saw that 800% growth, which is, I mean, that's still, like you said, that's amazing. That's remarkable. And so that contract took you, like you said, 25 to 50 people to and was it the same type of work service? Or did they expand? Like did they just expand the scope? Did they, did they diversify what they were looking for? They, well, you know, I think the one, we've been always really good at delivering the work that we provide for our clients. And so, so they, you know, they pushed more, they had more volume that they could give us and they, they did, so they increased the work that we were doing. Meanwhile, we, we were able to secure another contract with a different company who also wanted, you know, I think initially 25 or 30 people and that went great. And then they, another project came along. It's like, oh, do you think you could hire like a hundred people to serve us? You know, we've got an issue that we need to work through, you know, of course we can. So we, you know, you know, that those couple of contracts contributed to the, you know, that right, right? Because with these bigger government contractors as a teeny company, you know, going from 25 people to 125 or 200, you know, that's a big deal to us. You know, we were all hands on deck making it happen. And, you know, that was, you know, how we cut our teeth with the first federal contracts. Did you have to spend a lot of time in Mississippi? Yes. I mean, it seems like a silly question, but people want to know, right? I don't want people to make the assumption, right? Either way, right? That, oh, she did all this from Maine and, you know, or she spent all her time in Mississippi. I want them to hear it from you. Well, yeah, so that first group that, you know, that I hired in Mississippi for the federal, that was our first federal contract. I remember going down with my, with one of my kids, my, I think my son was like 18 or 19. I had nobody else. So, you know, I went down, we worked with the, What's his name? What's his name? His name is Carter. Okay, Carter, you're coming with me. Right. It was summertime. So he was out of school. I needed to hire, you know, 25 people. So, yes. Yes. And he, you know, he was up to see a new up for an adventure. And it was, we worked with a career center and interviewed, you know, people and the two of us ended up hiring our, our very first team. And before long, we ended up securing a, our own offices down there. And we had actually, you know, we, we just gave up that lease for a much larger facility a couple of years ago. So over time, the work that we were doing in Mississippi grew and grew and grew. And we also had the need to, so we, we released a former contact center with 450 seats. And yes, we, you know, spent, spend a lot of time in Mississippi happily because we have such a fantastic team down there. And with COVID, I haven't been able to visit. And so, you know, that's, that's kind of a bummer because otherwise, you know, personally, I spend almost once a month in Mississippi. Okay. And during really busy times, we actually have people that, you know, we've at least a house for six months and just had people there all the time. That's interesting. How has COVID infected your business? It, we did, you know, we, we have facilities where, you know, because you're in a content center, right? Exactly. So it, you know, as it turns out, we were able to deploy everybody to, you know, you know, we sent them home with computers and, you know, 90, I would say 90% of our workforce transitioned seamlessly to a work from home environment. And so it's working out, you know, we never skipped a beat with providing our services. And it's worked out great. Actually, people love the working from home. Some people can't work from home. So they've stayed in the facilities, but, you know, there's plenty of space. I mean, we have 450 seat facility and, you know, 20 people working out of it. So they can adequately space and adhere to all the, you know, the hand washing, you know, wearing masks and, you know, what's the difference between a contact center versus a call center? Oh, one word. All contacts. No, I just asked because I, I read, when I read your description, I said contact center and I'm like, okay, call center. I don't know. It's kind of, I think that's the old, that's the old term, right? So people think of, you know, I think of people crowded in, you know, it's like derogatory or negative and some. Well, but as, you know, the technology has evolved. It's not just phone calls. We do chats, emails. Sometimes we work on casework. So it's the actual multi-channel interactions is, you know, the contact kind of broadens the scope of what, you know, when thinks about as a call center is just taking calls. Contact center, you know, it's, however, a customer wishes to contact you, they can. So is that why it's why you call omni-channel solutions? Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. I'm following. See, I'm making, I'm connecting the dots. I'm connecting the dots. I know we're coming up on time here. And we went through a lot of stuff. So the thing is, you know, if you're out here and people are listening to this, that's, you know, one of the things I say, what would be if someone was listening, they said, Hey, how could I help you? Right? I'm a contract and I'm a contract agent. How can we help your company? Right? What type of opportunities might you, might you be interested in either today or in the near future? And what, what are you asking again from the, perhaps? Yeah. What type of opportunities might you be interested in? So if you've got your, your say 25 meter mark, 50 meter mark, 100 meter mark of the types of projects that you want to do, either now or in the near future, what do those look like? Well, we, we are very interested in continuing to build the, you know, the portfolio of federal clients. So we've gotten to a point where we can scale very quickly. With, you know, for instance, we were helping with unemployment phone calls and, and we were able to hire several hundred people in a really short time period. And, you know, we've been able to manage them very well and deploy them at home. So it's this whole COVID thing has allowed us to prove to ourselves that we can continue to scale quickly and safely. And, and manage our, our, our work and our, our employees effectively. So, you know, we, we'd love to continue to do more work servicing federal customers as either, you know, we can respond to the primes, but, you know, for companies that are larger companies out there that are looking for small business partners, we are still a small business, but we can scale. And so we, you know, those are the kinds of opportunities that are most interesting to us. Would you say tech support helped us or anything that you favor? Well, you know, tech support customer service that, you know, as I said, it's really of any time. I mean, the kinds of calls that would come through federal contracts, you know, there it's, we're not doing infomercial responses. You know, we could help somebody with their, you know, tax returns or, you know, as I said, we do a lot in the, for federal student financial aid or, you know, we, you know, insurance, you know, Medicare, you know, those kinds of programs are, are perfect for us. Okay. Okay. No, that's great. That's great. So for the, the people out here listening that just, you know, spend an hour and change hearing your story, how do you think that they could like, you know, starting from the beginning to the end, how could they, what's one of the steps that they could take to, to recreate the level of success that you've achieved? Well, the one thing that has been very helpful that I pretty much just stumbled upon. And it was a couple of years ago that I'm constantly reading and trying to, trying to figure it all out, just like everybody. That's all of us. That's all of us. That's all of us. Right. In our, you know, our path and our journey, but, you know, in reading various business books, and I came across one that resonated with me and it, it's called Traction. I don't know if you've ever heard of it by Gino Wickman. Okay. And the, it's, it's a very, and there are a number of different business books out there that, you know, help you to provide clarity on, on the company goals. And, you know, there was, I don't know, the Gazelle series way back in the Rockefeller habits and all those types of things. Well, anyway, this, this particular author and the methodology used in the book was helpful just to provide some, a framework to bring a consistency of, of goals setting, you know, annual goal setting, quarterly goal setting, and ensuring that the organization is aligned. And, you know, right now our company's quite, quite large. We've got, you know, a lot of people working in finance and, and HR, you know, we've got, you know, over a thousand employees, whatever. But, you know, even having this type of structure for a new, a new company starting out and, and setting goals, you know, the, you know, what, what do you want to be in 10 years? You know, what's, what's the three year picture? You know, what, what are you trying to do in the one year timeframe? You know, what's, what's the annual goal? And then, when am I going to try to get done? When am I going to be trying to get done as a company in the next quarter? And then, you know, the setting, the, the routine of reporting back on achieving those goals and having the alignment in the company, it has made a huge difference. You know, it's been, you know, having that discipline approach doesn't come naturally, I don't think to people. So, you know, relying on a structure to help build that consistency throughout the organization has been really helpful. You said you wrote a business plan early on. Have you looked, have you went back and looked at that business plan? Um, you know what? As a matter of fact, the, the business plan, um, the financials, we actually almost hit right on the mark. And, you know, it's, it's, you know, it seemed far fetched. It's like, yeah, we're going to be a million the first year or four million the second year. And we actually hit the numbers. And the crazy thing is, you know, I actually wrote the next three years on my whiteboard when, um, back, you know, middle of last year, it's like, we're going to do, you know, this amount next year. And people are like, no way. Guess what? Yes way. We did it. Somehow when you sort, when you put, put it out there and believe in it, you have a pretty good chance of things coming your way, you know? I think so. Yeah. So yeah. I agree. No, I'm a big vision, um, believe in vision boards. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I did the same thing with my, my YouTube channel. I said, Hey, I want to hit this many subscribers by this day that I want to hit this many subscribers. And I mean, it was like clockwork. It, it, it's like the, like they say, the world conspires to help you. Right. It's the, um, you know, the law of attraction and attraction, right? That's why they say you should ask for big goals, right? Not little ones because they're going to give you exactly what you asked for. That's right. Shout for what you asked for. Right. You mentioned Gazelle's and Rockefeller habits. That sounds like principles I learned in the entrepreneurs organization. Are you part of any of the organizations like EO or why EO, YPO? Oh, I think that, um, yeah, I think they, um, is it E-Y-O-Y? Yeah. Right. Those are the tools that, you know, that's the, um, that's the tool set that I work with. Right. Yeah. That's what that tool set is. I'm like that's those are tool sets. They give us when we're learning. Oh, good. Well, I'm not part of that organization, but, you know, as I said, I stumbled on the book just accidentally and I listened. I, you know, I ride my road bike. Um, I try to get out there every day and I listen to books while I'm riding. So I listened to that book a couple of years ago and it's like, wow, that was good. I actually listened to it again. It's like, that is really good. And so then I bought the book and I keep it close by and I've got all these things marked and I bought a copy for all of my leadership team. And, you know, if we're, you know, we're working through the tools and it's like, okay, we're going to actually, we're actually right now just saying we need to document our core processes and, you know, it's like, okay, guys, you know, can you read pages 155 through, you know, 160 and then we're going to have a discussion about this. So, you know, I think that it's, it's, it's a good, um, it works. You say to write your road back every day? Yes. Is that for physical health, mental health, a little bit of both? Oh, definitely both. No, I, you know, I keep explaining. Go ahead, just share with people. Oh, well, you know, I just, you know, I think, you know, getting enough sleep, eating well, getting exercise, you know, another thing one of my sons said to me is, um, because I was telling him that I actually have to block out a time in my schedule to ride my bike and, um, and I said, well, sometimes I feel a little guilty. It's like, you know, and he said, mom, don't feel guilty. The, you know, the number one most important thing for you to do as the, you know, leader of your company is for you to keep healthy and to have your clear mind and, you know, have a, you know, being able to maintain a positive attitude. And he's right. And being able to, you know, get outside, get some fresh air, you know, have a break by listening to a book. You know, sometimes it's a business book, sometimes not, but just having that break and getting that, you know, a good chunk of exercise in helps me to tick better. No, no, no. I agree. I actually, I shared a post like that this morning that says, even if you don't want to do exercise for your physical health, you should do it for your mental health. Right. Just because, I mean, it allows me to come with creative ideas. It also allows me, like you said, to take away from the anxiety that maybe you're facing or some, so some challenging situations that you're dealing with. It just, I don't know. I guess physical pain, it takes, it does something to you mentally, right? Right. It takes away that mental anguish of physical pain. Absolutely. Anything else you want to leave us with some parting words? I know I take up a lot of your time. I want to be respectful of you. You know, if you want to leave some parting words and then we'll say goodbye. Well, I, you know, I think that, you know, you kind of also just hit upon it with the, you know, importance of just taking care of yourself, but the, you know, the positive attitude is really critical. Positive attitude, solid intention, solid business goals, you know, that is catchy. And, you know, if people in your organization or your customers, you know, can, they can, they can sense your vibe. And if you are, if you exude can do, then you will do with no, no question. So anyway, that would be my parting comments, the importance of that. Heather, thank you so much for coming on today. Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure. No, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. All right. Thank you. Thanks.