 Hello everyone and welcome. My name is Abby Fry. I'm the communications manager at Moodle and today we're going to be exploring the topic of the EdTech market in the US and I'm pleased that we've got Jonathan Moore who's the head of Moodle US here to talk about that with me today. So firstly, hello Jonathan Well Jonathan, you are a great person to have here I know that you have been a learning technology strategist for over 20 years. You've had so many different roles. In fact, I believe you started your career as director of technology in public schools. You've worked as chief technology officer, vice president of business development, operations and of course you've co-owned your own consultancy or services business, my learning consultants, which indeed has become Moodle US. So I'm interested to find out how did you find yourself in the sector? Was it learning first or technology first or maybe it was both? Technology is a kid. I can remember working in a cornfield to earn my first computer at the age of 12. So lifelong love of technology and then kind of a personal relationship with my wife Michelle who started as a classroom teacher and that's how I really got my start as a technology director is her early year. She'd come home and kind of talk about some of the challenges that she was seeing doing a very early kind of a technology training for middle school students and I you know naively was like I think I can do better than that and so that that was the start of getting into the education side of things and that's been a you know 20 year plus collaboration. Yeah and I mean technology has certainly disrupted education it has for you know since the beginning of whiteboards really or overhead projectors. Many people say that the pandemic has been the major disruptor but do you see it like that because technology you know even Moodle for instance has been around for 20 years so what are your thoughts? I think it's accelerated things. I don't know that it's brought about any anything new that wasn't already happening but it's maybe accelerated things five years down the road maybe 10 years down the road in some cases where the technology was already pretty mature and then so you start to have that that situation of if you have an impetus to try it then you find out oh this actually does work so I think it has accelerated things you know I look back to some things earlier in my career being a tech director in a relatively rural area in Kansas all the way back in the late 80s there were these schools that were driving the technology and they're these little tiny kind of if you blink you might miss them on the road and they had some of the highest tech video conferencing technology anywhere and that was out of necessity because as accreditation requirements increased so you had to have foreign language and you had to have specialty science classes as a small school district you just couldn't maintain a level of staffing to have all of those specialty so to keep accreditation and really like to kind of keep their communities alive they they formed these cooperatives so you'd have literally four TV screens mounted on the ceiling of these classrooms and they would connect with four other schools and they would share teachers very very high tech very high speed connections well before it's really associated with you know kind of the modern distance education ed tech so and I think that parallels kind of Martin's experience right of the kind of ham radio in the outback remote education so it's interesting to me right as these areas that you don't normally associate with technology really driven the adoption of it into its modern form it's a really nice juxtaposition you know this idea that it's actually necessity and almost remoteness that promotes development and I imagine that is is nuanced by sector I mean let's talk about schools that example that you gave I think it was schools wasn't it in those remote communities but as one sector you know become an early adopter than another sector as you've seen developments really across the board yeah I would say you know especially in the case of moodle in those early days we did see a lot of K-12 schools really pushing that and even individual classroom teachers that would bring you know they would they would have kind of a gorilla installation that they just set up on their own and then it would just grow so for instance that's kind of how Michelle and I came across moodle was she was working on her master's degree and she was wanting to implement some of the techniques that she was seeing and they're for price reasons there just weren't a lot of options that we could afford so we started trying all these different open source solutions and eventually landed on moodle and and I can remember walking her through installing that on just like a donated computer and then a couple weeks later looking and seeing well she had recruited six other teachers and it went quickly from an experiment to they were doing the real work of education in their classroom and so we quickly had to actually migrate it to a newer server and do backups and all the things that you would do in a production environment so to make sure that you had continuity of service and that you weren't going to lose any of the you know kind of history of the education that was done so definitely saw a lot in K-12 and kind of charter schools sort of a little bit off the mainstream but then moved towards the mainstream and then we saw community colleges have a they're a little bit tend to be a little bit smaller a little bit more agile and also some of those same economics where need to stretch a dollar so we saw a lot of adoption there and then as moodle gained credibility and really like that kind of web delivered distance education grain credibility and some research behind it then we started to see more of the like university type institutions adopting it and that those traditional institutions right that are slower moving and then more recently just huge growth in the business sector and seeing seeing a need for those similar tools yeah amazing school teachers I guess in the way they're their own bosses often they're running their own show in their own classroom and so that allows them to explore new ideas has that really shifted have that has the demands from customers from your perspective in a service role changed a lot over time they really have I you know I think back to kind of our early years with moodle and we would put Michelle on a plane and Kathy Robeson another team member we would put them on planes and send them out to clients and we did a lot of onsite training and we also would do things like we would say four months from now we're going to have a group training session in Atlanta and we would advertise that we were going to do this group training and we would send out an an educational trainer and then often a technical trainer that would teach moodle administration and we'd have three days in a hotel and we might have you know 40 40 participants group training and it was very focused on the mechanics right which menus do you click on how do you set this up what are the different course creation settings so it was very focused on the mechanics of how do you use this tool now fast forward to today there's still a need for training but we tend to do that more as one-on-one onboarding with a particular organization and then we really do the training on the parts that they're going to do every day so there's still a little bit of that mechanical aspect but less so and more of the focus is really on what are your organizational goals what's your budget and then we'll synthesize based on the best practices that that we've gained over time both you know through reading research but also through experience and and we'll try to come up with what's the optimal way of setting this up that factors all three of those in and and then that's the consulting part and so oftentimes we will be interviewing the client and then saying well we're going to we're going to do this particular setting because of this information that you've given us and it's a one-time thing so you can imagine there's a vast difference in how you might set up the software for a higher ed institution that has a traditional two semesters per year undergraduate degree type program versus a corporation that is adopting Google for compliance training so they want to make sure everybody's had their safety OSHA training maybe bloodborne pathogens where it's we need to make make sure this happens same training every year and we need to we need to know who hasn't taken this training so we can go and find them and make sure they get in on time. So it's almost as if that simple model from the early days in which you are you know one-on-one or in group settings teaching people quite simply this is how you use the tools and from a technical perspective this is how you set up courses that that has become more complex as time's gone by and that consulting model is much more sophisticated where you're working with lots of different people to understand what their goals are and then it sounds like maybe you map your solution to their needs would that be right? That's very much so the case and some of that even goes all the way back to that experience with the classroom teacher that had the ambition to just go set their own noodle server up so learning that even in a situation where it maybe seems like choice is not available that people will find choices so that kind of has guided a lot of how we how we do things which is really to think about always kind of selling the solution in a way to make sure that is actually useful to the individuals in that organization and that's different for every organization and that's I think where Moodle has been really successful is because it is so flexible it can be a very different solution for that university versus K-12 school versus you know maybe it's a charity organization so it can kind of be a chameleon and do different things so yeah that has become more and more important and you think back to the early days we were really breaking new ground there was no research to be really had right on what the best practices so now we've had also the benefit of researchers and experience to say well you know if you do this it's not going to work out as well but if you do it a little bit differently then it can be very successful and I imagine the requirements so that is nuanced by sector a little bit so what I mean by that is is for some universities do that it can you see trends in what they need help with versus let's say you know a corporate organization or perhaps a not-for-profit that's looking for to implement training programs so what how are you seeing those changes shift by sector yeah you know I would say there's a general progression towards and this is maybe a little bit are are bent on how we see education but but it has been a general trend towards being more open to really interactive education so like in the case of Moodle it's based on social constructivism so you construct your learning by interacting with others across the board I think there's been a growing acknowledgement of the value of that I would say um you know your traditional educational institutions probably got that sooner than the corporate sector where corporate sector is a lot driven by that kind of compliance function and it's really you know taking a legal box off but we're we're seeing even in that sector now an acknowledgement that maybe we can get a bit more out of that training than we did previously so we get the tech box but also maybe it's a little bit more durable a little bit more effective in terms of actually changing the behavior of the employee and I want to just go back to this idea of flexibility and you talked about Moodle being flexible what why is it so flexible what what provides it that flexibility yeah so I think there's a couple things one is um Martin I think from day one had this so the M in Moodle used to stand for modular so kind of from day one this idea that there would be plugins and so at a very technical plumbing architectural level it's built into the system so so it's well designed to be flexible is is the first thing but then you have this also open source aspect of Moodle where if you want to change it you can and and it's pluggable so you can do it in a way actually that's very maintainable so you if you want to modify Moodle a little bit you don't have to take on the heavy workload of maintaining an entire LMS you can take on a much more manageable part which is just some very specific bit of functionality and there is something about the Moodle community I think it being an educational tool that it's also always had this really good community and really good documentation so I think you I think a lot of teachers were really they felt a lot of very positive feelings around Moodle that it did this thing for them in their classroom and they want to get back and so and not all of them I mean most teachers are not coders so how do they get back well they can write documentation and so it always had really better documentation than most open source tools and a very welcoming and friendly community that just wasn't solely driven by developers so I think that has led towards people wanting so we have this really good library of community plugins you have almost 2,000 plugins that members of the community have contributed so even if let's say you don't want to take on that even the smaller burden of maintaining a plugin there might be a plugin that does the thing you want and so in terms of that flexibility there's a lot of long tail functionality for Moodle so maybe Moodle does 80% of what you want out of the box and then maybe there's two or three plugins that have already been done in the community that also speak to your niche use case but for another organization it might be an entirely different set of plugins and a different set of the core functionality but now it meets your use case so I think that's those are kind of the two major reasons why Moodle has been able to be so flexible. And in the early days people were attracted by the idea of hosting on premise has that shifted over time? It has and I think a lot of that is a growing awareness that it's easy enough to install any software and run it but it's not as easy to sort of maintain it and it's become a bit more of a hostile environment when you think about this is a tool it's typically put on the internet and you know we have a growing awareness of the value of privacy so you have legal frameworks like GDPR you have the privacy law in California here in the US that are codifying the importance of that privacy and so the stakes are higher if you don't do it right and then we're also operating at a larger scale and the bad guys frankly got more sophisticated right we have not just I think early days it was a lot can I just borrow some server resources and you know maybe I'm going to send spam with that or I'm going to I'm going to put a little secret website on your web server so not great but the impact was relatively low now you have very sophisticated operators that you know maybe they're going to try to encrypt all of your data and lock it away and then extort you for money in order for you to get your data back or they're very specifically trying to extract this data in order to do identity theft or you know various attacks we will see these things in the news so it's become more you have to do more homework to to really do a good job of hosting these platforms and then they're also a lot bigger right like it's not you know maybe 10 teachers that came together and they're doing a small little noodle site it might be like we were just talking with like a entire nation's pay 12 so primary secondary schools they want to do an implementation for everybody in the country and that's a little bit coming out of covid where they're wanting to they want to supplement the normal classroom but they want to have a just in case so they want to be more prepared for the next whatever it would be that might mean we can't do face to face school that's a very different problem than you know I'm going to I'm going to use an old server that somebody donated from the community and I'm going to put it up for a couple teachers in one building so there's a lot more technical know-how goes into that than what we did back way back in the day it's like the perfect storm you know we've got covid so the demands on online systems are much much bigger presumably is more and more learners have come online you've got increasing sophistication with cyber security attacks and issues around data security scalability yeah I can see that there's all these things working together organizations are under much more pressure and consequently they probably need the specialist services of organizations that can help them sleep at night I think I've heard you say before Jonathan yeah we do we hear that a lot from clients and it is definitely sort of a design principle for us it is that's because we want to sleep at night too so doing that homework and the planning and and really making sure that things are up to par for today's challenges and the other thing that's kind of shifted you know from this kind of side experimental thing right to especially you look at during covid where in a lot of cases that was primary delivery now and so the stakes are higher even in terms of it needs to stay running yeah that's what I wanted to talk about next this idea of it becoming primary delivery I mean there has been stigma historically that online learning is lower quality than traditional face-to-face delivery even though the research would suggest otherwise I feel like that's shifting and I'm curious to see if you agree and if you do why yeah um you know one of the things I always think of when this topic comes up is you look at how higher ed is ranked in the US and it's typically a direct result of how many students are turned away so what what is your acceptance rate is is often one of the kind of number one factors in how good is this school and so by definition it's sort of traditionally been this exclusive operation and so anytime you have that dynamic and then you have a new thing that comes in that actually broadens the availability it's perceived as lesser this is less exclusive it has to be not as good so we've had lots of examples over a number of years of where organizations are being successful with online delivery they're getting good outcomes there has been academic research done that shows it is equally as effective and so and there's also some economic drivers right where there's some early adopting organizations that have been very successful in doing that and so that's gotten the attention of even you know a lot of these traditional kind of Ivy League schools if you will that they're they're now doing those same things with online programs so I think over time yet has become more accepted and then again in my own personal cases I went back to school after I was in the workforce and I did it online and it was the only way I could do it with my schedule so it would have been a choice either to stop a career that was going well or not be able to progress at an educational level and simply around just scheduling issues so I think a lot of especially in that you know I think of the Louisiana Resource Center that you've interviewed previously is that's sort of their entire model and they were able to shift that to a well-designed online program and actually broaden the adults that they were reaching so same quality level but take away some barriers so you have higher participation absolutely and I know that you have a team of learning designers or perhaps you call them instructional designers as part of your offering and again that's the idea of it's not just the technology is it it's pedagogy and technology together is that something that's developed over time are they a big part of the Moodle US business it is I you know I think back to there was a Moodle conference in 2008 and I did I did a session on basically technical administration of Moodle and I had a double conference room standing room only packed and it was you know one of the biggest draws of this particular conference and I think it was a point in time right Moodle has some traction it's has some maturity and people wanted to know how to do the technical parts to run it I can still do that presentation today but it's not that big of a draw like it was but if we were to put up one of our learning designers and talk about the you know 10 biggest mistakes in your remote education program that would draw a lot more and so the way I see it is we've gotten a lot better at the technical side of it but it's the table stakes that it's just what we have to do in order to do that actual work that we're most driven by which is are we delivering good education and and so to me the most important part of our organization are really is that learning design instructional design functionality and the again kind of a cliche maybe way to put this but if you don't know how to use the technology it's as good as broken so yeah so it's really only as valuable as how well we use it right it's it at the end of the day it's a hammer screwdriver and so what's the best way to use that tool and it takes it it's quite sophisticated and it is very different than the techniques that you use for face-to-face and you've explained to me that over time that customers and particularly perhaps large customers whether they're universities perhaps very big colleges they have outsourced more of their technical support do you think there is now a bit of a move for them to also seek assistance with learning design I guess if you think about it from their perspective perhaps that's been a longer journey because they are in the after all in the business of education and teaching and they feel as if or perhaps we've got that covered but actually as you say it's it's a different skill to know how to take pedagogy into an online environment and do it well so I'm wondering about that you've seen this move where people of outsourced more of their technical support and perhaps now a growing requirement okay we actually need to know how to use these tools tools well and we either need to build those skills internally or perhaps we seek support with say your learning design team for instance yeah you know obviously we have kind of a skewed view of things because we interact with the people that reach out to us or maybe we reach out to them like through conferences and our marketing activities but ultimately we see the certain view of things so what I would say is it's a mixture there are a growing number of clients that do value that type of service of we're going to help you with that confluence of knowing educationally good practices but also understanding this tool really well so so there's this practical aspect right like social constructivism for instance it's been around for a while as an educational philosophy but I know the personal journey that I saw Michelle go through which is she's known about those types of theories for a long time but how do you actually implement that in a in a real classroom the practicalities of applying a theory and I think that's where we really shine is we do understand the theory we have very smart people that have invested a lot of time and understanding that they invest a lot of time and staying on top of what research is saying is effective and how it's fine tuning over time but they also know this tool really well so they've been able to synergize those two aspects so they can come in and say you know this this good educational practice that there's a research paper on that's been peer reviewed this is how you actually implement that in Moodle so there's a lot of value there and so we have clients that recognize that to come in and they engage us do that but we also will often have new clients that will say well I don't know if we even need an onboarding we've been doing web delivery for a while we think we have it figured out so there so there is equally some skepticism around well I think I have it figured out already and and there's good and bad right like we're rarely stumped on on some improvement some advice that's actionable even when it's even when you're very good at a thing having another set of eyes and another perspective to come in and say well have you thought about implementing it this different way and and I saw this dynamic on the technical level when I switched from being a very good K-12 technology director that I felt like I had things figured out but I had things figured out from my school's use case and that took me about almost a decade to get to there and then when I went over to the kind of Moodle services side I had to relearn because there were so many different ways that people were using Moodle and then over time now I have a broader perspective because I've seen a lot of different ways of doing it so I think that same thing is the case on the instructional side where and in fact we we do a lot of even where we might embed a full-time instructional designer in a client organization and we used to say well we'll help you hire somebody and now we say actually that same person is probably going to be more effective as part of our team that is a part of a bigger instructional design group and that is also seeing other organizations implementations because they're instead of being just that you know the lone designer in a team they're part of a really dynamic team that has a lot of interaction and they're establishing best practices so the same person just different environment can be more effective so I think that's part of the dynamic and one thing that we kind of along these lines if you're a little bit skeptical about that is we do these little course audits that you know it can be a couple hours that could be half a day a day but where we'll go in and actually look at one or two courses and and just sort of write up a report based on that that again that confluence of what does the research say how to use this particular tool practically and and that's a very kind of a lightweight way to see am I missing something kind of where am I at with this practice yeah you're looking for the sweet spot um and it's really good I can see coming in at a micro level and looking at one course that allows you to evidence that but it is really cerebral that's a really difficult thing to do is to understand research and theory and then translate that to a tool it takes an absolute skill set I totally support that I that makes a lot of sense to me and it leads me into thinking about things from the client's perspective because I can see this idea of okay we've got two there's two sides of the coins here from if I'm a customer I've got to choose a technology platform but I've also got to think about who's going to help me with that platform potentially and we know the market is huge you know 370 billion dollars I think they estimate it to be worth by 2026 and there's been a huge amount of capital raisings and IPO so we know it's growing you're working with different customers in different sectors and so I'm I'm interested in understanding what's going on for them internally with their decision making set are you working with similar people and organizations so I don't know any university you're working with a vice chancellor or a senior lecturer of a department and the IT manager and a learning technology specialist how does that work it's you know it's all across the board in the higher ed sector it tends to be pretty formalized RFP process a request for proposals it's a committee I would say over time that that has shifted it was pretty common to see that be kind of a technology driven thing so you know a technology director such as the role that I had or a CTO or you know there's various different nomenclatures for this depending on the industry but that technical function was driving that more and was the decision maker in early days and I think that has shifted more towards the educational side which I think is positive and then it might be more of a veto type thing on the technology leadership side where they might say this doesn't meet some minimum standard right like security is a big driver there where the technology leadership might go well we've evaluated this particular solution we don't feel like it's going to protect student data enough and so we're going to we're going to ask that one from the list we're not telling you which one to pick but just don't pick this particular one but it varies a lot by kind of the size of the deal and what industry so you know in the on the business side in a you know very common kind of a medium small sized business it's not uncommon maybe we're dealing with the owner of the business or you just pick a random title that maybe has budget authority could be the head of compliance training or on where you know like an HR type role could be you know maybe it's selling training to their clients so it could be someone with that kind of a client facing type role like we have one client that I think that's literally the person we work with is it's the person that's sort of in charge of onboarding new clients and so that's that's the piece so it's still very broad I would say depending on sizes often a factor which I think is very appropriate right is if you're going to spend a very large implementation multimillion dollars it makes a lot of sense to do a more formal robust process versus if you have you know 50 employees and you need a compliance training function doesn't make sense to spend a couple hundred thousand dollars to pick the perfect solution and do you ever find yourself encouraging one of your client stakeholders to raise their voice what I mean by that is to speak up and sort of represent their needs more you know can you sometimes see okay I can see for instance they're certainly thinking about this from some of the technical perspectives but actually they need you know I would encourage them to be working with their academic team let's say I mean do you ever find yourself helping them to kind of scope out the project we do for instance well occasionally come in and you know in that consulting role and kind of evaluate a program so I can think of a there's a community college in California that we went out on site for about a week and what we found in that case was it was actually still a bit driven by the technical side and so when we were really looking at the the needs of instructors we had some things to say about in fact it was in this case it was some simple advice we're like we'd highly recommend that you have a cross team stand-up meeting three to five times a week that include educational folks with the technical folks and so that you're aware of the impact of what what one team is doing on the other team and in that case this really stood out to me as when we kind of connected the dots and got some people together in the room we we found out that there was a very senior technical person that was spending about 80 hours a semester doing a they're basically taking apart course backups and putting them in little pieces in order to upload them into the system and it was because of a set it was one setting it's a two minute change that the senior technical person had put on on the production server and no nobody had ever uncovered this over year so it was something like probably on the order of about $20,000 a year that it was costing this organization one little setting and because various people weren't talking so so yeah this does come up and you know gets into good change management and good good practice so we do really feel strongly that the educational side should have a very strong voice and setting what the goals are and then I kind of see the technical side is more like speaking to reality a little bit in terms of if you came to me and said well I want gravity to work differently than it does I can't really change that but you know if you were to say hey I want the server to go faster I can tell you what that might cost and and I and there might be some options to do that so I think and sometimes that gets abused right it's easy enough on the technical side is to use a lot of acronyms and try and speak over people's heads in order to get an outcome that is easier for you as the person running that technology and so I you know occasionally we see that kind of a dysfunction on either direction where guys over yeah if it's overdriven on the educational side then you have this sort of dynamic of you're asking the technical people to change how gravity works but on the flip side if it's too technology driven then you can end up with well kind of a culture of no where if it's just too inconvenient then we're going to say we're going to say no to it and that that's kind of a culture point for us at Moodle US is to try to figure out how to say yes and informed and smart yes so it's often yes and this is the cost that goes with it sometimes it's we can't do it exactly that way again because maybe we're changing the direction of gravity and we don't know how to do that but here's an idea if we understand we try to understand the why we understand the why then we can often be creative to get to yes we can do this thing that's important to you yeah that makes heaps of sense to me it's a balance in the middle of mutual respect and yes some of the things you've explained to me it's as if you're operating as well as management consultants or a consultant in its very pure yeah yeah yeah sometimes we get into that and that some of that is our you know personal journey and experience of growing organizations and and also seeing a lot of other organizations and what works well and what doesn't work so as you said earlier thousands of dollars can be invested or even millions can be invested in this choice of technology platform and partner what advice could you give organizations or education institutions that are embarking on that journey yeah well i'm a huge fan of piloting um i've seen you know lots of very well um researched kind of procurement processes and um at their extreme you might see a spreadsheet that has 600 sentence fragments that are different features that you want and there's a lot of gray area and what is meant by any one of those sentence fragments and it's very easy to just get a lot of yes it does that um and only to learn with five or 20 minutes of using the platform that it doesn't actually meet the requirement the way that you thought so i'm a really big fan of you know whatever you're going to select is having some piloting in that process in the case of Moodle and other open source tools that can be fairly inexpensive that you know the software is available you can try various things out at the same time learning management systems are very complex too so there is a lot of value in having some guidance right around someone who's done that before um but so that could even be like a paid pilot and we we recommend that a lot especially if we get very complex projects coming in is to is to do some piloting um see if the tool is a good fit for you around your most important use cases and then also develop some understanding of kind of what the base tool does often what we'll see is that um organizations that procurement they kind of they kind of jump to the how and skip the why and so then maybe you kind of go down a blind alley where you spend a lot of money to implement a particular how that um maybe if we knew the why we already have a solution for and it's much less expensive that so that's some general advice really love pilots I think that's a good way to actually reduce your cost and your risk because because there's always the risk that you spend a lot of procurement process and it doesn't actually get you the outcome that you thought it was going to get and then you know you have a lot of changing costs or you're stuck on a with a solution that doesn't meet the needs the other thing is and this is having been on both sides of the fence where you know as a k-12 director I bought a lot of software so so the other thing I would say is make sure that you match your procurement process to the actual size of the job and this is something that we've especially early days with middle as we saw is we'd be asked to quote on a project the process would assume that it's a couple million dollar project when in fact um maybe we had a solution at twenty to fifty thousand dollars but I literally could not afford to respond because it would cost me twenty to fifty thousand dollars to go through all of the hoops for um going through procurement right so that might be um in the extremes like come out twice for a couple days and present bring a whole team present the solution to me uh fill out uh two hundred pages of documentation and on on my particular form not on your so the the more here's the correlation the more expensive the procurement process the more expensive what you're going to buy is it is self-selecting so um and again that's very appropriate in a lot of cases but I have seen mismatches where um you get the million dollar procurement process for a ten thousand dollar a year solution so um I would I would say kind of be sure you do a good survey to make sure what are market rates um before I kind of put my thumb on the scale with it's ten thousand to deliver the service but it's uh fifty thousand dollars to actually respond to my procurement so now the cost is sixty thousand dollars I've taken up a lot of your time I'm aware of that thank you so much for joining me today that was a really interesting conversation I'm sure our audience will get a lot out of it so thank you Jonathan thank you for having you have me it's always a pleasure to have a conversation with you and for those of you who would like to learn more please contact us via the link on the screen and I look forward to seeing you next time thank you