 Ready as long as everybody else is yep, we're all good. We've got five and the applicant Okay, great. Well, if everybody's all set Welcome to the Tuesday, January the second 2024 first time I've said that Meeting of the Montpelier design review committee. I will let all the committee members and staff introduce themselves Martha Smurski member Benjamin Cheney member William Russell member Steve Everett member Yeah, I'm an alternate You can say if you're an alternate or not it's up to you Meredith Crandall staff Okay, and at this point we'll let Meredith read view the remote meeting procedures and process Okay, so I'm gonna be sharing my screen the stuff on the screen is more for people who are watching the meeting via zoom via orca media Because we do have it is live streamed and then but there will be some information in my little spiel for everybody to be mindful of For those of you who have not done this before for those of you who have done this What probably feels like a hundred times You can probably tune out a little bit Alright Beginning Alrighty, so for those viewing tonight's design review committee meeting via orca media You can participate in the discussion via the zoom platform through either video or telephone access options So if you want to do the full experience being able to see things on the screen and I see you You can just put this link into your web browser And you should be brought right into the meeting Well Hold on wasn't supposed to go back and then here's a phone number to dial if you just want to be able to hear and speak and then there is the Meeting ID if you have problems accessing the meeting, please email me at M Crandall at Montpelier hyphen VT org I will be monitoring my email throughout the meeting And if anyone is For those attending via zoom turning on your video is optional And if you're having issues with connectivity my suggestion is actually to turn off your camera So you'll still see us, but we don't see you it helps with bandwidth that way For everyone who's attending Please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking this will reduce background noise If be aware that if you suddenly are muted by me or everything freezes up It's because we're having some sort of security issue and I'm dealing with that If anybody dials in on the phone They can use star six and that will mute and unmute them Please reserve the zoom chat function for a troubleshooting or logistics questions only If you have a substantive question or comment about an item on the agenda Please make sure to raise your hand and get called on by the chair before speaking And then you can can go forward at that point We don't have any general members of the public on tonight So I'm going to skip that part of my my little bit Please note that in the event the public is unable to access tonight's meeting And I would find out about that via my email Then the meeting will have to be continued to a time place and certain I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair At this point I would like to have everyone Speak their names to approve the agenda Ben Martha Rebecca million And Steve so the agenda is approved Since we've approved the agenda unless there's an objection Can we go to the first applicant and then go to the elections after or is it necessary to do the elections officer elections first? Technically we're supposed to do the officer elections first What I think it kind of depends on who people were going to nominate for Positions because I know Eric has been vice chair for a long time But he's out sick and I haven't had a conversation with him about anything So if people were interested in nominating Eric for either of those positions We should probably postpone and wait till the next meeting which would actually be an amendment to the agenda But just because I I don't I don't I haven't spoken to him to see if he's still interested I know he's talked about cutting back some but if people were interested in nominating someone else who's here tonight for the vice chair position And we have somebody for the chair then we could do the elections Now I'd rather wait for Eric I'm getting nuts Yes That sounds like a good idea since he's not here and he is the vice chair to this point So we will table that till the next meeting And we will go to the first applicant for 89 main street Medi real estate the applicant is onion river outdoors Is there somebody here from onion river to describe their signs? Hi, steve. I'm gen roberts. I'm one of the owners of onion river Yes, hi gen hi, so um, I've never done this before so I'd be Interested in some guidance around what you would like to hear from us Um, I say us because my husband kip is actually listening in here Okay So I gen I they've all seen the application that we submitted. I also have those materials so I can share them on my screen I think generally just describe what you're planning to do verbally is usually what people do if you want me to share particular items I'm happy to um also just for everybody to know um, I did look up and pull some of the Real particulars about the lights that are over the artisans hand sign So if that comes up, I do have that information But gen I would just describe, you know, what you're doing Explain those images and let me know if you want me to share any okay, um So our signs we are looking to have three identical signs Made of sign board a sign foam that will have a wood background Would look it'll actually be Printed on the sign foam and then raised lettering three quarter inch raised lettering and it's simply our onion and On the left side an onion river outdoors on the sign The exact dimensions of it. I would have to look back at the application. Um again, but It there's a green wooden band around the building where all of the signs for other businesses are and so ours fits sort of appropriately in that Band sign, you know dimensions wise it has a little room at the top for a light Um, we are not going to do a light like artisans hand. Um, we're just doing something small and subtle And so the sign Be there's two there would be two signs. Um at the corners, you know a little setback from each corner But over our entrances there at the corner and then one sign Over our entrance further up the state street Jen did you intend to have a light over each of those three signs? uh-huh Yep, and and the kind of light it looks like there's some sort of a loose neck Is that correct? It does have a goose neck. In my understanding, you know, I'm I'm leaning on the designers at wood and wood for this um for how this works I I didn't care for the look of the Artisan hand really big goose neck lights. So I asked them if we could do something that was um less Visible and a little more subtle. So I I believe it's um Not going to come up and out like that. It's I think there is a picture and yeah Yeah, you're drawing indicates that it comes out from the wall of 24 inches Yeah, yeah, okay Okay, how how many lights do you expect to have that Wood and wood said We with the size of our sign that with this new Light that they have um, that's sort of a panel light They think that one light sufficient per sign they said we could do too if It doesn't seem to be adequate, but we would do some testing with it Ahead of time to make sure that it was going to be adequate. They thought it would be Okay, we could Unless anybody has any objection we could go with either option Depending on the spread of the light It shows the six inch by four inch led And if the spread of that light doesn't cover the River out of course all the the lettering then you could have the option to use two of those to illuminate the sign Yeah, I'm not I'm not familiar with that Seeing that can they can cover that that that with adequate and but if they if that's something new I'll have to look it up that's It seems great if you can do it Well, we'll leave that to the expertise of wood and wood there. They've been doing this for a while on sparky's pretty good Is there I'm looking at the sign. Is there a pen stripe around the perimeter of the sign? Oh gosh, we went back and forth on that and I think the answer is no because I think we decided that the green background of the building where the signs are mounted was Border enough okay What we can do is if If it's still up in the air and you have and you decide to do otherwise we can give the option to do a pen stripe In the same color as the lettering on the sign and again, that's just an option. That's up to you. Yeah I think we decided against that But that would be great if we had that option if that works for you We'll leave it in there in case you put it up and decide you'd prefer a pen stripe okay Does anyone else have any other? comments questions or suggestions I I think that they know that they're going to be mounting this in the mortar rather than in the brick area Um, but you said steve spark. He knows this pretty well He knows our process Yes And and actually the sign is mounted in the the signed band which in all three locations Which is wood. Yeah, and what about the light? What about the light? The light also in the wood looks Okay, like it's in at the top of the sign band So the light the the bar if it's setting up two feet The bar would probably go out either straight or fairly arched Or with a very small all arch with that small head that's six inch by four inch head Okay So I think we're good there So with the option of two lights if need be The applicant is proposing one but with the option of two lights if needed And the option of doing a pen stripe Does anyone have any other? suggestions or comments otherwise we can go through Well, um, I mean just just one comment It's not part of the part of our review preview But the and I noticed that you have pine in the behind you and the sign is Pine and I may be mistaken, but I thought that the Please stay street entrance was was fur You're right. It is. Um, that's yeah, that was a The pine is sort of a I think a morbid onion river Thing the entrance that they put in was fur That's pretty astute. I Have recognized that as fur So just in the sense that those could you know, if you wanted those to match, but if it's a you know Should have the option Or but if it's fine if it is the branding thing that's that's perfectly fine I guess I hadn't thought about that both of them Both of them look fine. So unless You want to pinpoint one Whatever again, whatever You decide with sparky is is fine Both Both look nice against the green anyway And meredith I have a request Yes I did not get a criteria sheet in my pack Oh, no, okay I'm going to ask you if you would read through the appropriate criteria Yeah, I'm I could I'm sorry. I think it's because it was a duplicate and so I was like, oh, he probably has it from last time, but you died Yeah, give me a second because I can also put it up on the screen, but I will read through it as well I'm really sorry, steve. No, that's okay. I I didn't know I should have checked before I I'd left with the packet I can't believe I just based on that one. Um So this is going to be a little interesting um to do the You'll have to come in tomorrow to put in the Write stuff in or just write it on a piece of paper and we'll attach it But I think I want to have it on the on the form. All right. Uh, let me share screen All right, because it's a sign pretty much all of these apply. So, um criteria one The size location design color texture lighting and material of all exterior signs within the design review overlay district Shall be compatible with the buildings and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable Where appropriate signing Shall respect the original sign placement and sign bans on historic structures acceptable I'm gonna circle as we go along. Uh Uh, if a building has multiple talent tenants, there shall be consistency in placement and size among all signs Absolutely acceptable It is recommended that sign placement be centered over building entries In this case, it actually is over the two entries into their space acceptable Sign installation so minimize damage to character defining materials on the building acceptable Uh, we'll say in masonry buildings. Uh, it's not accept not applicable here because you're doing it in the wooden sign band Sign design color and topography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable Sign support structure shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves also acceptable Lighting fixtures for signs on Well, that's historic building. This technically is not a historic building yet because it's not listed on the registers So sorry, that should be not applicable Um lighting fixtures for signs mounted on all building facades shall be designed with appropriate housing shielding and photometrics to ensure that There is appropriate lighting levels and illumination that focuses on the sign panels exclusively And that is also acceptable And then the optional changes That are be to be determined by the applicant and the sign designer Are that if one lighting fixture is insufficient to illuminate the sign a second fixture can be added And then there's an option if they choose to put a pinstripe around on the perimeter of the sign that is also an optional An option for the applicant And again, neither are required. They're just options And that's all and you can describe the next step For them you need to have a you want to vote steve? Of yes Form all in favor of the applications speak your names This is martha. I say yes You're muted ben Ben says yes William says yes Do you need me also? Yeah, we as long as we don't have more than five everybody can vote. Thanks for checking to know rebecca Okay, rebecca says yes And steve says yes, so it's approved all awesome So Jen, thanks you all Jen, I I will need the details on the number of lights um and the lumens per light before I can issue the Permit, I like I said, I was able to find the old The most recent sign change for artisan's hand that application So I have the information on those lights so we can I can figure out like what the total light emittances right now um The the brightness the lumen output of the artisan's hand lights is um 1200 lumens per fixture so just to give you a sense of how bright those are if you want to Dim the individual fixtures down a little bit. It's really it's going to depend on what kind of of bulbs or lamps those fixtures are taking um But if you can make sure when you Figure out with sparky how many you're going to do what that lumen output is per fixture I'll need to know what that is before I can issue the um permit because I have to do a whole write-up on the light allowance for the parcels Okay We'll do Okay, awesome I have a dumb procedural question since this is a Like the fixtures that the artists in hands have really like they have like three fixtures and they don't they Well, so yeah, so they they're not gonna they need to be The light is more concentrated So there's a chance that these could come in at at a higher lumen But just spread it over a wider amount and I would suggest that that shouldn't inherently disqualify You know the the lights Right it wouldn't it's the every in Montpelier We have depending on where you are in the city There are different total lumen output per acre allowances um, and so We have to actually keep track of that Um as new lights are being added or removed what the total is Um to make sure that things don't go over. This is a pretty big parcel for downtown And there's actually not a whole lot of exterior lights on it So I don't see this being a problem in it going over And it doesn't measure like how how big the spread it is actually just lumen output Is how they're measuring it at this point. Um, and whether or not it's fully or partially shielded Because these are going to be do have a shield and are pointed right at the building pretty much at the sign The shielding isn't going to be as much of an issue for this But there is because of the whole dark skies initiative. There's a total lumen output per acre That has to be complied with So that's what we'll be looking at But I don't I don't think it's going to be an issue So yeah, so you get me that input gen steve will sign this form and then once I have both of those things together um, we'll be able to get the permit out the door and um, normally we just mail them But if you want to in hand sooner we can email you when it's ready So well, you can let me know when you send me the lumen information the lights information from woody Would you prefer? Okay. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks everyone Okay, thank you very much and good luck with your project and your new location. It looks great Thanks. Thank you. Have a good night. Good night. Good night Is there anyone I had To look at the minutes from the december the fourth meeting Yeah, I have and I'll make a motion to accept them the way they are Do we hear a second? Yes, I second Okay All in favor of the minutes speak your names This is martha. I say yes Ben says yes And steve says yes So the minutes are approved Does anyone have any other business at this point? I have a question for Steve and for primaritif I know that we are being very um Liberal and accepting in terms of the new businesses trying to read Businesses trying to come back after the flood Um, is are they able to just move signs? On an administrative level or do they need any kind of a permit to do that if they're using a sign over again? So Yep, so the I don't remember who was at the meeting when it happened, but the committee voted To let me review those on sort of a temporary basis Okay, if they're moving an existing sign from a place downtown to another place downtown to be able to transfer that sign Um Administratively they still get a permit. I'm still giving them a permit for it So that there's a record that it has been moved. Um, I'm still checking the sign allowances on those buildings that they're moving them to um and They're they're basically being told look this is a this is a limited time thing you're gonna have to come back To the committee when you are ready to design a new sign for that space for a lot of them I know that Who was it a katie's jewels? um put up a sign It's at the rear of the um It's on east state street. So it's the one with the kind of funky curve with the shingles on it And yeah the heening building the rear of the heening building. I just can't remember what the the number is there but um I was leery about allowing them to put that sign on that shingled surface But you can't put anything underneath it There's no wall space to do it and I was able to look back through google earth street view And previously The design of you committee at some point had approved a sign On that in that location So it's a little big for that spot right now But I let her like just for width wise for the width of that space But we've talked and she's planning on getting a new new sign new new style But she needed to be able to somehow give notice that she was in that location So that's that's exactly what I was thinking about and people really wanted to know where she was so that it makes total sense I was just wondering Yes, so they are getting permits and they're not allowed like they Like I've had some people who also are like just temporarily Refacing ground sines ground mounted signs. I think just putting something temporary over another Business is placard on there But if they're doing that they can't make the total sign area any bigger than it was before And i'm not letting them make changes to the support structure It has to be something where all they're doing is covering or replacing the the information face that's going on there So you might occasionally see a couple of those where it looks funky and you're like what they just temporarily tack something over and I'm like They're just trying to get Into a dry space because they couldn't refit their flooded space Um, but they all know that they're they're gonna have to come for a redesign and some of them You know like the landowner is planning to redesign the entire ground mounted sign because it's old or whatever Um, and it's a lot of those instances for the ground mounted signs many of them are also waiting to see what happens with the Regulation updates that hopefully will be adopted in february That may change the size limitations on some of the ground mounted signs. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome um I uh want to just remind everybody that we have rebecca owens and william russell Yay design review committee members now Um, use excuse me for not, uh, welcome Welcome them earlier when we were introducing members So welcome to the committee Thank you Thanks, it's uh, it's well steve. We were we were on the this committee together. I think 20 years ago Oh It couldn't be that long ago Wow So, uh, I just wanted to make sure it was Recognizing as we talked about it a little bit before the official opening of the meeting steve, but um I think being able to get everything done with the gen was a good thing. Um Okay Yeah, and do keep an eye out so the the new the zoning changes tweaks Um, it looks like those are going to have two hearings before city council in february So the two city council meetings will have those hearings And hopefully they'll adopt them then because otherwise it'll have to probably wait for new city council members to get Situated after town meeting day Okay Well, good. Does anybody have anything else? to add I make a motion to adjourn And I'll second it All in favor of adjournment speak your names Martha Ben William And steve Is it the meeting? Meeting is adjourned. Thank you all for coming