 Hello and welcome to a brand new series, Biruna Dialogues with me, Vinay Tiwari, in association with Exchange for Media. It's a series where we intend speaking to some of the top industry, captains, leaders, people who know a thing or two about the subject and the expertise that they come with. And I'm absolutely delighted to have with me, Anand Roy, managing director of Star Health and Allied Insurance Company. No one better than him to start the series off simply because we just had a year which possibly brought the focus back on the health industry as well as the insurance industry like never before. And possibly for a good cause because we've never seen something like this before. Every single Indian got impacted by it. We had almost three and a half to four months of a lockdown period. And hundreds and thousands of examples of people struggling to get basic healthcare. And the one thing that could have helped a lot of people in that fight against this pandemic was possibly health insurance. And that before the health insurance become as important. So I'm absolutely delighted, Anand, to have you on board. And you come with over two decades of experience in this industry. So no one better than you to tell us the whole journey of how it spanned out and how do you see going from here? Let me start off by asking you. I mean, everybody knows the statistics. India has possibly one of the lowest rates of insurance penetration in the world. And certainly for an aspiring economy like ours, it is abysmally low. And I think you would agree that this pandemic taught us a lesson or two about the absolute urgent, instant need to have a health insurance job, Anand. Yeah, Vinay, so thank you very much for having me on this show. And warm welcome to all your viewers. Yes, you rightly put it, the health insurance penetration in India is abysmally low as compared to any of the developing, you know, other countries, maybe in Indonesia or Malaysia or Singapore. And you compare to anybody, you know, we are really low. But of course, given the large population that we have, it is understood to some extent. But as you rightly put it, the pandemic, COVID-19 pandemic has really, you know, brought about an awareness never before in the history of Indian, you know, population about the importance of having a health insurance. And we are seeing good amount of people coming forward to buy health insurance. And we are hoping that, you know, this trend will continue so that people get themselves covered and their families covered from, you know, any financial kind of upheaval in case of any hospitalization requirement. So definitely this is... Like, I was, you know, I was going through some statistics which, you know, shocked me. I mean, I've been generically aware of certain statistics. But one statistic that caught my eye specifically was in 2001, India's health insurance penetration was about 2.71%. Currently, I found out that that has just moved to 3.71%. And the growth of 1% in almost two decades is as startling as you could imagine in a country that not only is, you know, of the size and shape that India is, but also it's rapidly urbanizing. And you would imagine that possibly people in the urban areas could warm up with the idea of insurance much more in the rural areas. I mean, do you see this particular growth very... And I'm saying this because I'm trying to put that in context with what happened last year. I mean, we've really never thought about health until the pandemic really happened. Yeah, Vinay. So it's unfortunate that data which you gave about two decades and only 1% improvement in penetration just goes to show that the economy has grown rapidly. But the insurance penetration has not kept pace with the growth of the economy as such, the GDP growth. So it's unfortunate in the sense that people always think of insurance as, you know, a wasteful expenditure which would, you know, unless there is a claim there's no need to have a policy, you know, that's a typical attitude, but that is changing, fast changing and, you know, with the current pandemic which happened and the awareness it created and the regulator, let me tell you, the regulator has been very, very, you know, forthcoming and launching some products which was, you know, very relevant to the current pandemic times, simplified products. Many simplified processes were brought in. So as a result of this, the trust in insurance is slowly improving and we are hopeful that, you know, in the next 20 years, the same trend will not be there. Right, I mean, you know, for a long time insurance was seen more as a poll industry, right? You know, all the effort has been made by the insurance companies. People are trying to, you know, there are agents out there in the field if you're trying to convince people to get on board. Do you now sense, and in your experience in leading one of India's major health insurance players, do you get a sense that in the last couple of months or so the push has become a little bit of a poll nudge as well. I mean, there are voluntary inquiries where people are coming forward. Yeah, so during the peak of the lockdown, during, let's say, you know, July, August, September, we saw this demand, substantial demand from the customer side, you know, it was kind of a full, you know, kind of a situation where customers wanted to buy their own policies. They were approaching our agents, our call centers directly. But yes, now as the lockdown is slowly eased and, you know, the economy is opening up and life is slowly coming back to normal, we again see that, you know, the demand for health insurance is tapering and it's coming back to, I mean, becoming as it was prior to the pandemic, but definitely higher. And let me add one more point here, you know, whenever there has been an outbreak of pandemic or epidemic, you know, in other parts of the world, like let's say, Hong Kong during SARS and Middle East during MERS, the health insurance demand has, you know, been on a higher side for the next three to four years after the outbreak. So we expect the same trend to continue in India and definitely, you know, we are seeing those signs, early signs of that, yes. So do you also believe that, I mean, look, I've had a theory about India that we are by and large fatalistic people. I mean, we tend to think of adversity or a difficulty as fate. Not realizing that there are now in a modern economy or a modern country, you can actually have a few things which you can control. Even if fate was to not be so good to you. But does this mindset become out of a barrier in acceptance, say a concept like insurance in India? Because people tend to blame it on fate and not really think that, okay, there is a way out of the difficulty. Correct. That's been the trend all these years and that's the reason for the low insurance penetration. But now, as you see because of this current pandemic as well as in other lines of business, you know, whether it's a home insurance or whether it's a travel insurance, people are realizing, you know, that they cannot leave everything to fate and it is better to have a financial protection. And especially when the cost of hospitalization, it's going up not only for major ailments, but even for infections. Today, you know, a simple infection can run into lakhs of rupees in a hospital treatment. So people are realizing that they cannot leave this to chance anymore. It's better to get a coverage which is very reasonable in price and it doesn't cost too much. So I think that mindset is changing slowly. But it will take some time because it's a very large country and definitely it will take time. Yes, and I mean, I'll move on to certain specific sectoral questions that I'm honestly intrigued by human behavior because that determines a lot of the things that we do in various things. I mean, including things like insurance or just, you know, figuring out what to invest and where to invest. There is a mindset and there is a human behavior element to it. One of the things that's always struck me is that, you know, insurance advertising, for instance, or all the, you know, effort that is made to get people come on board insurance, some usually uses the emotion of fear in it. I mean, people are made to feel that there is a problem if you don't do it and there is a fear factor that is attached in the imagery and the communication that is usually rolled out. Do you now believe that, well, fear is one very important part of it. And of course, you know, losing your loved one or having a serious health issue is something that we all fear. Do you also believe that there is possibly now time to move to a direction where people are not just made to feel scared enough to buy it but also because they feel it's a good process of investment because investment is not just about buying land, it's not just about buying gold. It's also about ensuring that your health is taken care of and that you really don't have a worry on the account. So do you think there is need to probably do some narrative shift as well to widen the penetration of the acceptance of insurance? I see a lot of insurance advertisements nowadays. As you rightly said, more from the angle of protection rather than, you know, a loss or something like that. What we have also seen shifting, you know, the narrative has shifted to getting better quality treatment, you know, at least from a health insurance point of view. I think the focus right now is to showcase that with a health insurance product in your pocket, the family can get better treatment at better quality hospitals rather than, you know, only showcasing fear and death and morbidity and so on. So I think that's really shifted. More can be done, but narrative is slowly shifting. So as a bleeding, you know, corporate or a private parent insurance sector, one specific point that just came to my mind was this. You still have a dominance of the public sector in the insurance sector in India, much more. The public sector insurance sector is still considered one of the largest one. They still have more subscribers to it. Do you see this dominance as something positive or is it something that the private sector thinks is actually kind of preventing the corporate sector from actually penetrating better or higher? Simply because possibly either the trust factor is not there or there is some other reason. No, definitely we don't see this as anything negative. The public sector companies have been around for a long time. They have done really good service over the years. But yes, you know, in terms of product innovation, in terms of, you know, customer service, the private sector companies, after the insurance sector opened up in 2000, I think the private sector companies also have done a great job in innovation of product in terms of, you know, digitalization of the industry and also moving towards, you know, better customer service. You were right in pointing out the trust factor was missing between insurance and customers. You know, people used to think that whether a claim would be honored or not, you know, those kind of doubts have been cleared today, whether it's a public sector or a private sector company, the customers are assured that, you know, a genuine claim will definitely be honored. So those kind of fears, I mean, have been allayed by the private sector companies coming in. And especially the health insurance companies, the standalone health insurance companies, which came in after 2006, have really expanded the market substantially. And when I see the penetration of health insurance is so low in India, there is ample opportunity for all kinds of companies to come and grow. So, you know, cater to different segments of the society. So we think that it is complementary. Definitely it is not negative or any such thing. So two questions come out of what you just said and two very important questions actually come out of it. One is, of course, you know, you mentioned the aspect of whether a policy will be honored or not. One of the things, and what I'm about to say is largely anecdotal. I really don't have any data to substantiate it. But from all anecdotal evidence, when we go to hospitals to visit our friends or family or somebody else, one thing that we've noticed with the hospitals tend to have a slightly different approach. And especially private hospitals, I'm talking about private hospitals right now, when they find out whether you have insurance or not, even in the pricing, if they know that you have group insurance, if you have company insurance, there seems to be a slightly differentiated pricing that they put as opposed to somebody who walks in with a personal insurance plan. The question that I have was for insurance companies, a regular constant dialogue with private hospitals, because now private hospitals are a very important, possibly a more important aspect of Indian healthcare. Is that already happening or is it something that needs to be stepped up? Because trust is not just an issue of the insurance company. It's also about how the hospital is dealing with the patient when somebody lands up at their doorstep. Absolutely, absolutely. And a very interesting and important question because see, end of the day, insurance companies are selling a piece of paper and the truth is at the time of hospitalization as far as health insurance is concerned when somebody is near and dear one is in a hospital and they need the service. And the hospitals, and then the service is outsourced to a hospital, which on which, so there is a lot of relationship building happening and today I can tell you with a lot of confidence that most of the hospitals really are, insurance payments used to contribute 5% of their billing, but today now it is going up to 50, 60% with some of the hospitals. So they're understanding that insurance is here to stay and they are also negotiating with the insurance companies and insurance companies are also working out, proper understanding with the hospitals to give a seamless customer experience. End of the day, the common customer should get the best experience. As far as overpricing and higher billing is concerned, whenever there is an insurance policy or if there is a cash payment, there is a differentiated billing. That is a challenge in some hospitals. I would not like to brush everyone with the same brush, but there is a challenge and unlike an insurance industry which is regulated or a banking industry or a telecom industry, the hospital industry does not have a common regulator and that's why there are differentiated billings within the same city. In a city of Mumbai in one kilometer distance you will get different billing in two different hospitals. So that's the challenge and that's going to be sorted out with regular negotiation and discussions. There's no other way. Yeah, I remember in maybe seven or eight years ago the government had in fact proposed something like a star rating system for hospitals much like you have in the hospitality industry where the star rating is given to you according to the kind of facilities you offer. And I think that possibly was a little bit of a non-starter because even now most people choose hospitals purely by peer reference or if they know somebody there or proximity to each other is more applicable in the case. I mean, there is no other real way of judging or assessing which hospital is going to make me take the advantage of XYZ facility or not. I mean, really it's all about peer knowledge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what's happening is that the insurance industry at the Piaver Council, the General Insurance Council so at the council level as well as the regulator level there are some initiatives being taken to categorize hospitals based on various performance and other factors. So that customers can make an informed choice and choose a hospital of their, whichever is suitable for them. So that's something which is going on that's a work in progress. And hopefully that will be more beneficial to the end customer. But let me tell you when I know as far as the confidence of the customers are concerned on claims payment. Let's take this pandemic as an example. The insurance companies, all the general insurance and health insurance companies put together you might have seen have paid out close to 2000 crores. Sorry, almost more than 10,000 crores of claims as far as COVID related claims are concerned. And so the industry has done really human service in helping customers who had to go and get themselves or the family admitted. Even at a very high loss, all of this has led from the front on the premium paying customers. So hopefully this will be good for the industry in the long run. Right, so the other question that I wanted to ask you coming out from one of the answers was, look, I mean, in the specific question of the FDI and the insurance sector, I mean, the first time we did the FDI insurance sector was way back in the year 2000 when the government first brought in 26%. Then of course it took them 15 years to bring it to 49 and now in 2021 they shifted it to 74. Now there have been two arguments. I'm not the subject expert, but there are arguments that I've read where people are saying that just because the government is now allowing 75% FDI and the insurance sector, it's not necessarily going to be of benefit to the larger players in India. It's really the smaller players which will possibly benefit from a capital infusion and allow them to scale their operations up. But the larger players are already here and they really don't benefit from it as much. Would you subscribe to that view? Or do you see this 74% as a big positive step which would really give a fill in to the insurance sector? I definitely think it's a very big positive step for the simple reason. Yes, some companies will benefit by additional capital coming into them and increasing their financial strength. But more importantly, there are many companies who will make the first step into Indian market now because there have been many companies who wanted to have a controlling shareholding and they would not want to enter unless that was provided. There are many companies like that, international companies, which will come in. Once many companies come in, better products, better services, better technology will also come along with them. So I think it's a very, very positive step for the Indian insurance industry. Right. One other thing which is a growing reality of India but I'm sure that when you as a leader of the industry and as somebody who leads a major organization which is a big player in the industry, there is a big difference between how insurance needs to be approached in terms of the ticket size, in terms of the packages or in terms of the schemes from say between the rural areas and the urban areas. Do you see that different? Because there is a, it's chalk and cheese. There's a very different way of approaching insurance possibly in the urban areas and the affordability factor vis-a-vis in the rural areas where people aren't as many in the salaried category. They have a very different way of, the earnings are not regular. They are periodic. Maybe they'll happen in a six-monthly cycle or a quarterly cycle. Do you think that there is a greater need for customizing packages depending on not just a rural urban divide but even possibly say the classification of the towns? I mean, how Delhi and Mumbai can possibly a Jhalon or a Hangeel? Very interesting. You asked this question because we have actually spent a lot of time debating about it internally. And coincidentally, we have also set up a very exclusive rural vertical this year for semi-urban and rural areas because we see a lot of demand coming in from those areas after this pandemic. So there's a separate team which is working on that. About the products being offered to rural areas, let me tell you, about a year ago, the regulator came out with a product called ROG Sanjeevani, a standardized product which is offered by all companies. A very simple off-the-shelf product priced very reasonably and most importantly has facilities to make premium payments and installments. So these are the benefits which is available. So a person today can buy a policy by paying 500 rupees a month rather than having to pay 15,000 rupees in one shot. Or 1,000 rupees, I mean 10,000 rupees in one shot. So I think those are the products which are doing very well in the rural areas. There are specific products designed to the rural areas also which are micro policies and which are more affordable in nature. I think the rural markets are very, very, you know, waking up to the needs of insurance and health insurance in particular. I think there's a lot of scope and opportunity there for us. So that actually piques my, you know, imagination a little bit. Is there also move? I'm sure it's already happening because you already mentioned about how your organization is looking at the rural sector and way more carefully possibly. You know, we also, India has a typical advantage also in terms of large professional groupings. For instance, just to give you an example for us is truck drivers, right? Now it's a very large community in India and they're fairly interconnected in the sense that, you know, all truckers talk to each other, they know each other. There's a lot of word of mouth stuff that happens in, say, the transport industry. Similarly, you have a lot of other service industries. I mean, in Bombay where I stay, for instance, the MSME workers per se, they're all interconnected. I mean, if I take an Uber for instance in Delhi or Bombay, all drivers talk to all drivers. All through the journey, they'll be in touch. They're discussing personal problems. So there is a lot of interconnectivity. Do you think maybe there is even possibly in our time to look at professional segments per se? I mean, traditionally we would look only at the salaried class maybe. But in the service industry too, there is a large segment that has a lot of peer review or a peer advisory kind of interactivity going on. I mean, truckers, for instance, I keep saying are vulnerable in terms of their health and possibly can do a lot more in terms of getting insured in various things, including health. Yeah, yeah. So there are a lot of unions and there are a lot of associations these days who approach insurance companies to buy policies for their community. So I think there are already such things are in vogue. For example, out of top of the mind, I can tell you that we have ensured a lot of such communities, especially truck manufacturing, truck body manufacturing communities, truck driver communities, also car drivers, also the delivery boys today on the motorbikes, many of them are running around full day. So there are insurance plans designed specifically for those communities and the organizations as well as the associates for these communities. So definitely it's already in vogue. So I mean, now that we're in 2021 and obviously the budget has happened, a lot of the most people have looked at it very positively. The only possible worry that possibly I have is that if people are not careful enough and the pandemic returns in some form or the other, even if it's a partial lockdown, lack of mobility does have a cascading effect on the economy going down, except for that. Do you see the next year in that sense possibly as the great big turnaround year for the insurance sector as well? And of course, link to the economy because obviously once the economy goes up, the ability of people to spend on insurance also rises alongside. Yeah, yeah. So see, definitely, I mean, touch wood, if things go well and we do not have a second spike of this virus, the Indian economy is bound to take a big jump as all the projection shows that next year maybe more than 10%, 15% growth. So I think the fate of the general insurance industry especially is linked to the economic growth. The economic activities grow, the insurance industry grows along with that. So I think that's something definitely which will happen and the future looks very bright for the Indian economy as such and the insurance industry also in particular. As far as the protection policies are concerned whether it is life insurance, health insurance or accident insurance, I think these are going to be booming for the next 20 years to come irrespective of the economic growth or it's not having any linkage anymore because of the awareness that has been created. I think these products are going to be having very high demand for the next many years to come. And insurance companies will do. Myself, my apologies. Yes, please. No, please go ahead. No, my point is if you were to see, I mean, we've spoken a lot of things that are looking positive and good and of course the pandemic has kind of pushed people into doing that quicker, but surely for industry that has a long, huge headroom to grow, do you see or if you were to list out the top three challenges that you face and you would possibly even expect the government to ease off those challenges, what would those challenges be? From the angle of my company, my business that is health insurance majorly, maybe I can touch upon a few other things. In health insurance, the biggest challenge is the rising cost of hospitalization, the medical inflation. The medical inflation is typically at least two times the regular inflation or a nominal inflation. So the medical inflation results in higher cost of hospitalization as a result of which insurance companies have to raise their prices. So unless some amount of regulation is brought in there, there will be a challenge for the insurance industry to grow. That's one of the points. Second point is the amount of fraud is quite substantial in the insurance industry and that's something the companies have to fend for themselves. That's not blaming anybody else, but heavy investments are required in digitalization and technology so as to detect fraud at the source and then put an end to it. I think these are the two challenges that we face as an industry. Of course, as I told you, the general insurance industry, the property insurance, the other lines of businesses are linked to the economic revival and economic growth. So that has some bearing on the growth of the industry itself. So very interesting that you pointed out the health inflation to so to speak but that's a very, very important issue and I think that's an issue that possibly every family ends up discussing. I mean, you and I both know that India's out-of-pocket expenses on health is possibly the highest in the world. I mean, between 16, 70% and that obviously is a huge, huge factor which brings me back to that one question I asked and I think that's a very important factor because if you ask anyone anecdotally, they'll possibly say that, yes, there is a need for it. Would you as an industry expert say that possibly now is the right time for the government to actually push for having a regulator even for private healthcare? I mean, much like you have the IRDA, why not? Because private healthcare is here to stay and you cannot solve India's health problems unless you have a very active, robust and a very systemic private sector participation in it. I mean, that's been proven now with this particular pandemic as well as now the vaccination drive where the private sector is now being opened as well. So do you think it's probably a time to have a health regulator as well as a private healthcare regulator? Absolutely, absolutely. We believe it's the right time to bring in a healthcare regulator because only then the overall healthcare business, the healthcare ecosystem can grow in a systematic manner because the current COVID pandemic also has shown a lot of instances that despite state governments, central governments giving directions, many hospitals were not following those directions and they were charging much higher than what the directions were coming from the ICMR or from the AIMs or even from the state governments as such. So we have seen all those in the news in which all of you have covered. But I think it's a right time to bring in a regulator so that a proper organized growth happens both for the healthcare ecosystem as well as the health insurance industry. Okay, I mean- Health insurance industry of course has the IRDA, yeah. Yes, yes. I don't want- Yeah, but we face this challenge always. Absolutely, absolutely. So my question is not, the next question is not really linked to letting off your trade secrets or your company secrets but I really wanted to understand from a pure star health and insurance company point of view, how do you- I mean, are there new plans or something exciting that you are in the sense moving away from what you've been doing so far because of some learnings of the pandemic or it's going to be just a scaling of the business that's happening in the usual sense. So the scaling of the business will be the main growth driver of our business that goes without saying but we are looking at, when we started this company we call ourselves a health insurance specialist. We wanted to cover all the outliers. How do we cover people who have diabetes for 25 years or somebody who had a heart disease or somebody who has cancer, who already has cancer, not the healthy person who may get a cancer and then there's a product of real. But how do you cover people already having cancer? We were the first company to bring out coverage for people with HIV who are HIV positive. Now, during the lockdown time, mental illness came to the forefront because of an actor's death and that became again a talking point how does insurance companies cover mental illness? So we have been at the forefront of bringing disease-specific covers to cover all the population who may not get an insurance coverage otherwise, senior citizens. Again, another example where we were in the forefront. So the company is looking at how do we bring about products that can reach out to the wider population. We are also working on many innovative products specifically related to diseases and you will see a lot of people getting covered who are not getting an insurance policy early. I think that's a goal of the organization. Two very interesting things you mentioned Nanan and these are things that personally, again, we've been talking about a lot on mirror now. One is of course the issue of mental health that you spoke of. It's one of those things in India which people don't talk of very openly. It's probably a stigma attached to it. But I'm sure all of us have known in our circles or in our offices where it's a serious issue. I mean, it's an issue which is impacting even the younger generation much, much more than it used to possibly when we were growing up. So it's very interesting that you say that in your company, even mental health is one of the products that is offered. I don't think it's as widespread as it should be. It is required. I mean, people don't go for consultations regularly. Maybe if there is some kind of a financial cover available, they might even have or even companies might be more open to actually allowing that kind of insurance cover for their employees. The other thing that you mentioned which I found very important was the issue of cancer because that's again something. I don't think there is any urban Indian possibly even rural Indian who doesn't know somebody who doesn't have it. It is that widespread. And I think that's something that is really crippling families across. I mean, every family has had somebody who suffers from it. So I find that very interesting. I think it's possibly the two most important apart from of course the other lifestyle diseases that I've come in. And I'm sure that must be a lifestyle diseases must be one very important part of what Star Health does. Absolutely. And we are grateful that you are covering this because ultimately the objective is to get this out there so that people understand that even if they have cancer they have stage two, they have stage three, stage four cancer, there is a company which will offer them a health insurance policy because if somebody has cancer does not mean that they will not get a dengue fever and there is no insurance policy for them. And that's unfortunate, but we have brought about the product and we are very proud about that. We were the first to bring many of these kinds of policies and we will keep on innovating so as to cover the larger population and not only go after healthy like so-called which anyway is available for all the companies to work. So what do you see as the big, I mean as a pure health industry professional? I mean, even though you may be on the other side of the divide where the doctors have of course one way of looking at the health industry as an insurer and as somebody who's actually helping people cope with the problem of disease. Are there in your pecking order the top three concerns you have in terms of these are the real big worries that India is heading into? I mean, the first cancer is one we discussed. Are there others, a couple of other diseases that you think are really going to be the big problems for India in the next four to five years? So, see we all get, all of us read reports about how India is the diabetes capital and the cardiac capital of the world given the population and the lifestyle that we have that's bound to be there. But I think, as far as we are concerned, the couple of most concerning areas for what we have been noticing is the health of senior citizens, okay? And senior citizens is something that is, most of them do not have health insurance coverage, even corporates cover employees, but may not cover parents. And they are left to fend for themselves. If they have good savings, great. But if they don't, then they're dependent on their children to take care of the healthcare costs. So I think health insurance for senior citizens is something which is very important. And that's something that we give a lot of priority to. We have a product that's designed especially for them. Apart from that, we have also recently seen, the younger age group, the younger age group think that they are not susceptible to any ailment or any disease and they can get away with anything. But that's not true. COVID has kind of broken all those illusions. So we see a lot of, and we are seeing a lot of traction in the millennials. So these are the two areas that we are focusing on, the senior citizen and the younger age segment. And we are hopeful that, you know, once you cover both these segments, the middle-income group, I mean, the middle-aged group definitely has some amount of whereabouts to take care of themselves or they have the maturity to buy health insurance. And these are the two segments where we need a lot of focus and we need to create more awareness. Yes, and it's very important that you mention the senior citizens because like, yes, for the longest period of time, we've been, you know, making virtue out of the demographic dividend that we have of having a younger population. But as the life expectancy ratios improve in India's, the nutrition levels are improving, of course, you might well have a situation the next 10 years where the number of senior citizens will only grow. And they will obviously live for longer and obviously would require better insurance care as well. So I mean, I'm glad that you're focusing on that because that's something that every family again has battled at some stage of the other. And especially in the last one year where the senior citizens possibly were the most vulnerable, you know, when they were trying to face the pandemic. So it's, in that sense, much neglected. I would say sometimes, you know, in urban India, for instance, Anand, there are a lot of, you know, families where the children are actually abroad or they're not even in the same town where the parents are living. So there is an added worry on that. Absolutely, you said it all, absolutely. So one of the things that we did when I just to add to this is we created a very fantastic telehealth facility, you know, just before the lockdown, we had set that up where we were able to reach out, you know, to customers over the phone, guide them, hand on them. And this really helped especially the senior citizens because a lot of them wanted some kind of advice on COVID or on, you know, home isolation and so on and so forth. We were able to help them a lot. And that's something that we have done. I think that will, this kind of, you know, practices will continue, will develop because distance, you know, management of health through telehealth will become, is becoming popular and will remain that way. Right, Anand, it's been absolute pleasure speaking to you and for all the viewers who are watching right now or, you know, catching it up on digital. Remember, you need to go and buy insurance if you don't have it because this is possibly the best thing you can do and, you know, become stress-free. This is not the stress that you really need, especially in a very uncertain time and at a time when you just realized what a pandemic or a disease and illness can do to you and your loved ones. So thank you. Once again, Anand, there couldn't have been anyone better to kick off our series. Somebody who's dealt with the health and the insurance sector for so long and of course, you know, with us recovering from pandemic, we couldn't have done at a better time. First, in a long series of many subject experts and many investors on, we don't have special dialogues in association with exchange for video. Thank you, Anand. Thank you so much. Thank you, Vinay. Thanks for having me. Good day. Thank you.