 Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage. We're here at another event in-person. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're at the CNCF KubeCon CloudNativeCon for in-person 2021 and it's we're back. It's a hybrid event and we're streaming lives on all channels as well as all the folks watching. A great guest kicking off the show here from the co-chairs from Caderacos. Is that right? Caderacos. Caderacos, there's nothing to say. Danielle Cook who's the vice president at Fairwinds and John Furrier director at Ascension. Thanks for coming on your co-chair. Third co-chair is not here but you guys are here to talk about the cloud maturity model. Pretty mature. Funding is flowing, tons of announcements. We're going to have a startup on $200 million that are announcing and funding and observability of all hot spaces. So the maturity is, it's the journey in the cloud native space now is I've crossed over to Mainstream. That's the, we've been telling that story for a couple of years now. You guys have been working on this. Tell us about the cloud maturity model that you guys worked on. So we got together earlier this year because we, four of us had been working on maturity models. So Simon Forster, who is one of the co-chairs who isn't here, he had worked on a maturity model that looked at your legacy journey all the way to cloud native. Myself, I had been part of the Fairwinds team working on the Kubernetes maturity model. So, and then we have Robbie who's not here and John Foreman who we all got together. They had worked on a maturity model and we put it together and have been working since February to go, what is cloud native maturity and what are the stages you need to go through to achieve maturity? So put this together and now we have this great model that people can use to take them from, I have no idea what cloud native is to the steps they can take to actually be a mature organization. And you know you made it when you have a book here so just hold that up to the camera real quick. Yes. So you can see it. It's very much in spirit of the community. But in all seriousness, the book's great but this is a real need. What was the pain point? What was jumping out at you guys on the problem? Was it just more people like trying to get more cloud native? They want to go move faster? Was it confusing? What were the problems you're solving? Well, a big thing is if we solve in the beginning, right? There was journey to cloud, journey to DevSecOps and the Kubernetes being a thing, then there was journey to DevSecOps to Kubernetes as well. But everything is leading to cloud native. It's about the journey to cloud native. So everybody who I talked to, go John, the ecosystem is an eyesore, man. If I look at, you know, let's keep the IO. The whole map thing. I need, it's just like in the trail map, it's just so confusing, what do we do? So every client we go to, I revet the wheel and I get them from zero to hero. So we just put together a model instead that we could reuse as a good reference architecture. So from that is a premise of how we built the cloud native journey model you have with us today. So it's a five scale model from one to five. Most clients today are out of two. You know, but our job is getting to a five where they could be optimized and really rock and roll and to do these different things. You know, it's interesting. I love these inflection points and being a student of history in the tech business. There's moments where things are the new thing and they're really truly new things. Like first time operationalized DevOps. I mean, the hardcore DevOps are early adopters. We've been doing that, you know, we know that. But now mainstream is like, okay, this is a real disruption in a positive way. So the transformation is happening. And it's new, new roles, new workflows, new team formations. So there's a, it's complicated in the sense of getting it up and running. So I can see the need. How can you guys share your data on where people are? Because now you have more data coming in. You have more people doing DevOps, more cloud native development. You mentioned security, everyone's shifting left. Where is the data to tell you? I mean, as you said, people are more like a two or what's the data saying? So we've had, so part of pulling to this model together was your experience of Accenture helping clients, the Faroans experience helping people manage Kubernetes. And so it's from thousands of clusters that people have managed going, okay, where are people? And they don't even know where they are. So if we provide the guidelines from them, they can read it and go, oh, I am at about two. So the data is actually anecdotal from our experiences at our different companies. But we made it so that you can self-identify. But we've also recognized that you might be at stage two for one application, but five for another application. So just because you're on this journey doesn't mean everything is in stage five. It's not boilerplate, it's really unique to every enterprise because everyone's different. They're about to be on a journey, put you on a journey with these things. A big part is also, through this between part one to five, your clients are also in denial, you know. So I said, Mr. CX level, you are level two. We are not, there's no way we've been doing this stuff for years, we're going to be at five. No, sorry, you're at two. So this used denial also about this because people think they're doing cloud native, they're acting rolling and I'm looking at what they're doing and I go, okay, do you do run top security? And they go, what's that? I go, exactly. So we really need to take, peel back the onion, start from stage zero and get we to be in the process. All right, so I want to ask more about the process and how that relates to the themes are involved. What are some of the themes around the maturity model that you guys can share that you see that people can look at and say, how do I self-identify? What's the process? What can I expect? Well, one of the things we did when we were putting it together was we realized that there were themes coming out amongst the maturity model itself. So we realized there's a whole people layer, there's a whole policy layer process and technology. So this maturity model does not just look at, hey, this is the tech you need to do. It looks at how you introduce cloud native to your organization, how do you take the people along with it, what policies you need to put in place, the process. So we did that first and foremost. But one of the things that was super important to all of us was that security was ever present throughout it because as everything is shifting left, you need to be looking at security from day one and considering how it's going to happen and roll out from your developers all the way to your compliance people. It's super important and one of the themes throughout. So it would be safe to say then that security was a catalyst for the maturity model. Because you got to be mature. I mean, security, you don't fool around with security. If you go back to last year, when I created this CKS program for, I worked with Yoshele Haun from CNCF. We put together the Kubernetes certification program. I saw a need where security was a big gap in Kubernetes. Nobody knew anything about it. They wanted to use the old rack and stack ways of doing it. They wanted to use their trim micro tools from yesteryear and that doesn't work no more. You need a new set of tools for Kubernetes. It's the different operating system. It's a different way of doing things. So that knowledge is critical. So I think part of this, again, on this journey was getting certification out there for people to understand how to do it better. Now the next phase of that now is how we put all these pieces together and build this roadmap. Well, it's a great group. You guys have the working groups. Hard to pronounce the name, but it's a great effort because one of the things I'm hearing, and we've been reporting this on theCUBE and SiliconANGLE is, the modern software developers want speed and they don't want to wait for the old slow groups now. And security and IT are viewed as blockers and slow things down. And so you start to see a trend where those groups can provide policy and then start feeding up data models that allow the developers in real time to do their coding, to shift left and to be efficient and move on and code, not be waiting for weeks or days. This is where GitOps comes to play. So today it's the age of GitOps right now. GitOps is not emerging. We're only seeing the happening now. Where everything is a code, policy is code, security is code, policy is code, config is code. That is the new place for it. And again, more confusion, more need for a character office. Okay, what's your thoughts on that? So I think what's really important is enabling service ownership. You need the developers to be able to do security, see policy, see it live and make sure that you're not, your configuration isn't stopping the build or getting into production. So we made sure that was part of the maturity model. Like you need to be looking, continuous scanning throughout, checking security, checking policy. What is your process? And we made that ever present so that the developers are the ones who are making sure that you're getting to Kubernetes. You're getting to cloud native and you're doing it successfully. Well, folks watching, if you don't know the cloud native landscape slide, the ecosystem slide, it's getting bigger and bigger. There's more new things emerging. See the role of software abstractions coming in, automation and AI are coming in. So it makes it very challenging if you want to jump right in. Lifting and shifting to the cloud is a really easy check. Been there, done that. But companies want to refactor their applications, not just replatform. Refactoring means completely taking advantage of these higher level services. So it's going to be hard to navigate. So I guess with all that being said, what's you guys' advice to people who are saying, I need the navigation. I need to have the blueprints. What do I do? How do I get involved? And how do I leverage this? So we want people to, you can go on to GitHub and check out our group and read the maturity model. You can understand it, self-identify where you're at, but we want people to get involved as well. So if they're seeing something that's like, actually this needs to be adjusted slightly, please join the group, the cartographist group. You can also get copies of our book available on the show. So if you can read it, and it takes you line by line in a really playful way as to where you should be at in the maturity model. At the top of that, if you come Thursday, we'll sign your book. We'll spend a lot of money one day, I promise. You guys are good. I got to ask, the final question is like more and more, just more personal commentary, if you don't mind. As teams start to change, this is obviously causing a lot of positive transformation, if done right. So the roles in the teams are starting to change. And SREs are now not just the DevOps guys provisioning, they're part of the scale piece, the developers shifting left. New kind of workflows, the role of certain engineers and developers, now new team formations. Why were you guys seeing that evolve? Is there any trends that you see around how people are reconfiguring their team makeup? I think a lot of things is going to a single pane of glass tonight, where I'm taking dev and ops and putting on one panel where I can see everything going on in my environment. Which is very critical. So right now we're seeing a big trend where every client wants to be able to have the whole grill of a single pane of glass to drive to that, but for you to get there, there's a lot of work you gotta do. It doesn't, overnight, that will not happen. And that's where this maturity model I think, again, will enhance that ability to do that. There's a cultural shift happening. I mean, people are changing. There's new skill sets. And obviously there's a lot of people who don't have the skill. So it's super important that people work with Kubernetes, get certified, use the maturity model to help them know what skills they need to grow. And it's a living document too. It's not, I mean a book, but now it's a living book. It's going to evolve. What areas you think are going to come next? And you guys have to predict if you had to see kind of where the pieces are going. Obviously with cloud, everything's getting more Lego blocks to play with, more coolness you have in this world. What's coming next? What, so what do you guys see? Any forecasts or insights? So we're working with each one of the tag groups within the CNCF to help us build it out and come up with what is next based on their expertise in the areas. So we'll see lots more coming. And we hope that the maturity model grows and because it's something that everybody relies on and that they can use alongside the landscape and the trail map and actually be able to navigate. It's super valuable. I think you guys, if there's any plug for any people on how they join, if I want to get involved, how do I, what do I do? Absolutely. So you can join the cartographist group. You can check us out on GitHub and see all the information there. We have a Slack channel within the CNCF and we have calls every other Tuesday that people can join. Join the calls. Yeah, awesome. Congratulations, well needed. And super important is people want to navigate and start building out. You know, you got the edge right around the corner there. It's happening real fast. Data's at the edge. You got cloud at the edge. Azure, AWS, Google. I mean, they're pushing really hardcore. 5G, a lot of changes. Everybody's multi-cloud today. Now, one client is one cloud. Everything's multi-cloud. Comic-Con's on the plane everywhere. One public life at DevOps. That's the holy grail, right? It's distributed computing back in the modern era. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate it. Thank you for having us. Okay, I'm John Furrier. Here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2021. In person, it's a hybrid event. We're here live on the floor, show floor, bringing you all the coverage. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned all day. Next three days here in Los Angeles. Thanks for watching. Thank you.