 We are a majority in this country, and we're going to win the election. Do you know what the red pill is? A red pill is someone who infiltrates a group and then destroys them from the inside. This place is spooky. Take it easy. You know what, guys? I'm going to go back tomorrow. I think we should call the sheriff's office. What are we doing here? Hi. But we take some of them with us. Thank you. Hi, my name is Tanya Pinkins. And thank you for joining us for our sixth session of Through a Black Woman's Lens. Over the last six months, we've partnered with HowlRound. And our first session was with TCG. And we've talked about black women in business, black women in theater, black women in Hollywood, black women in theater, sensuality, sexuality, spirituality. And today we're going to talk about, and two, and with black women in academia. We have three brilliant minds with us. We are being moderated today by Crystal Chase, who designed this entire program for us. And you just saw the old trailer for my feature film, Red Pill, which was my inspiration for having these conversations with black women. Red Pill, we released December 3rd through midnight releasing. You'll be able to find it on almost all of the streaming platforms. And it was my opportunity to try to tell a story through my perspective, the black woman's lens. And that made me want to know what other black women's lenses were about other aspects of life. I sometimes teach masterclasses at university. And my last kind of part-time, full-time academic position was through NYU Atlantic School in acting. And in hindsight, I think I was getting a preview of this critical race theory fight because I was actually shooting Red Pill during the semester. So I took two weeks off and I had a brilliant teacher, Christopher Burris, take over the classes for me. He now teaches down at UNC. And I know that if any academic students had a professor who had written, directed and produced a film, they would have been ecstatic and felt like, oh my God, my teacher did this. My students said that I was the worst professor they had ever had. And when they got specific about what it was that I had done that was so terrible, they said that I had made them read aloud in the class and August Wilson monologue and that it was punitive of me to do so. They fought me all through the class about actually performing one and it was on the last day of class that I had them read one because I said, they were like, my African-American friends wouldn't want me to do this. And I didn't have any of color students in the class. And I said, but you're not taking a job from anybody. You're paying a lot of money at this university and you should have the opportunity to work with the finest material there is and August Wilson is that. So they felt that was punitive and I was the worst teacher ever. And I'm sure all of you have stories to tell. So we were talking before we started the live panel about the different positions that people have in academia. So I'm going to start with Lisa Thompson who has the happy story. And she talked about it as being, you know, somebody who lets to work in the big house. So Lisa, tell us about your academic story at UT Austin where you are an artist and a scholar. Were you at the McDowell colony this year? I was at McDowell this year. And I also had an ACLS, which is American Council of Learned Societies Fellowship. But the story begins actually with me growing up, the first generation college student going to college, having parents that had member gone to university and navigating my way through, with the help of the affirmative action programs that were in place in California. And then Baki, in light of the Baki decision and all that stuff that happened here. Tell us what the Baki decision is. We can't assume anybody knows what it is. So a white man applied to medical school in University of California, Davis, which is part of the University of California system includes UCLA and Berkeley. And he didn't get in. And he sued because he felt it was beginning of the whole push against affirmative action. And in the wake of that, we've seen the doors that opened for me as an undergrad start to close behind me. And it's been something that's been very interesting to navigate in the US. And I did my BA in UCLA and my MA at UCLA in African-American studies. And I was trying to decide between what I want to do in my life. Do I want to be an artist or do I want to be a scholar? And my mentor at the time who's still my mentor said, you should do both. I said, she's clearly insane. And I worked at UCLA and a program for underrepresented students running a tutorial lab. And I was on the staff as the director of this humanities lab at UCLA. And I go to these meetings that were campus-wide with faculty from across the university to talk about different kind of issues. And whenever I had to have an idea, it would fall flat. And someone else would say the same thing. Who's a faculty member. And then they would be like, let's do that. And so one day, Greg Saras, who was native and queer artist and scholar pulled me aside. So you should go get your PhD. Because it's just, you know, you think and then I can listen to you unless you have one. And I went to the same program. He actually went to funny enough as Stanford got my PhD in modern thought and literature and got to meet different folks. And it was an interesting journey. You know, at that time, I was excited to start writing my play, a play and ended up being part of a whole group in San Francisco outside of Montgomery Domingo with all these people were kind of hanging out. But I was focused on getting a PhD because I realized as first generation person, I didn't want to be a starting artist. That was that cute to me. So that was that was my decision to pursue academia. But the play, but the art has kept coming and coming and being, you know, okay, you have a play. I never said it seemed like people out to anybody that would get a call saying we want to do it. In San Francisco, we want to do it in LA. We want to do it off Broadway. And I was at the whole time like fighting it. It was interesting. And got tenure. I was told when I got hired that, you know, when I got hired to play it's going on. You were actually hired to be a scholar. And I took that. Oh, okay. And then I was off Broadway and got a rave review from the New York Times. They're like, Oh, we're so proud of you. Yours is great. And when I got hired now for left university, state university in New York, Albany and came to UT hired me as an artist and a scholar. And feels like, Oh my God, I can be my whole self. And I'm also went from English to black studies. And I'm also being fully intelligible to everybody and what exactly I was. So it's interesting to be in the belly of the beast in many ways. Right. In terms of how people are seeing Texas and all the moves are being made. But I'm here to say that we can't throw Texas away because the, you know, stats come out with a by Pew. And back in the earlier this year, the majority of black people live in Texas. So we throw away Texas. We throw away black folks, you know, and we throw away Texas. We throw away the majority of black people. The majority. Exactly the health stats are falling out. Basically, it's the biggest population of black people for per state. We're now above Georgia. So I know you to be a black, the black black woman. And yes, you are an artist and a scholar. I don't know how you've navigated this. This system, the system that is. I mean, I think academia is, is probably tougher than. And if you don't like, they will have you out of there in a minute. Your students will have you out of there. My students had me out of there. How have you done it? What is the secret? Great mentoring. What I learned from my dad, from my mom. She was. She was always just studious, just, you know, want to learn different things. And my dad was a man to play the corners. So I learned that I hang out with him in the barbershop. And hang out and also, you know, go with her to church. So I think that having both of those things and respecting both those parts of black life, not to study it, but because you love it and that's home. I think it's sustained me in ways that were important. I think. Okay, okay. We'll get deeper into this. Zama is also a UCLA, right? Oh, yes, I am. So you come from. Okay, so tell us about your. So first of all, lovely meeting all of you, beautiful black woman, truly an honor. I was telling Tonya just before we went live that I had a relationship with a friend of mine under me. Who's an actress and also a playwright. And she just said, she said, I love Tonya. And she had amazing things to say about you. So that just speaks to your character. And I also just wanted to say congrats on this phone because. You know, I think that for you to, first of all, it's brave, you know, and necessary. But already I love it because the, you know, scholars today, I had one talks about the idea that, you know, storytelling is probably the only form of reparation that we might have access to. And so there's just so much power in that. And you know, that is how we disturb history. That is how we disturb the archive. That is how we can start imagining ourselves, you know, on our own terms. And so I really just wanted to say that I recognize it and I'm inspired. So thank you. Oh, yes. And then I have to introduce myself. So I went on a tangent there. So yes, my name is Zama. And I'm currently doing my fourth year, just started my fourth year in my PhD at UCLA and cinema and media studies from South Africa, where I worked in mainstream radio broadcasting for years. And as a voice artist did content production. And it was at a point when I had a rather horrific experience, you know, in terms of being an artist and existing in a white institutional institution or just being institutionalized. And, you know, I was trying to find some kind of like agency and, and I think that that is when I then decided to try and merge both these worlds, the academia and the, and the creative work, because those worlds should never be seen as separate. They are inextricably linked at all times. And so I wanted to also say to you, Lisa, thank you for sharing that and your journey in academia thus far. And is there anything else that I'm forgetting? I think that's a good start. That's a good start. Since I didn't do the reading of the introductions, I find that people tell you about themselves in far more interesting ways. So Africa was saying she wasn't in the big house at the university. So she's going to tell us about the other, the other, the fields of the university. Yes. So I came to academia in a very roundabout way. I started, first, I would like to say, first form is that I am an artist, but artist readers always pay the bills. So sometimes we have to do other things. And the other things that I had to do was to, you know, share a crop in corporate America and also in the retail space. So that was my main background as far as work history and sort of kind of came to academia through God. I mean, that's where God placed me in that moment. And, you know, when I look back on it, because I'm no longer working for that particular college that brought me into academia, I must say that never had the verses of Ephesians that we fight, we do not fight flesh and blood, but we fight spirits, demonic spirits in the earthly realms. That never became so alive until I stepped into an academic setting, which kind of blindsided me because I knew the cutthroat nature of corporate America, but I was kind of fooled with the idea of what academia is as far as this idea of community. And so I worked in the communications office, which is why I said that I am a field Negro because there are tears in academia and staff is not really looked at or appreciated the same way as the students in the faculty are. Tell us more because you didn't get into some juiciness. You know, I listened to in class with Carr and Dr. Gregg Carr, who was a professor at Howard, he says that faculty is not even appreciated at the level that students are. So, you know, clearly there's demonetization there as well. Definitely. I mean, students are at the top because they're the product, you know. So whatever the students say goes because we need them because we need that money. We need that grant money. We need, you know, the help from, you know, the U.S. Department of Education. So they are the upper echelon. They are the top tier, but I do, I did find that in the academic space that faculty did have more agency than the staff. Now I'm working in communications. I'm basically the voice of the college, but my voice, I had no voice. I, you know, the things that I felt like the college, because, you know, most colleges at that time, I was, I went to this particular institution in Western Washington. I won't give any names, but it's in Western Washington, very small town, very small town. Are we on a under a gag order? Sort of kind of. So because of my experience, because of where I had to leave. I'm sort of kind of bound to not say their name, but it is in Western Washington, very small town. I won't say what I used to call the name of the town. You know, I'm going to be nice. I'm going to be nice. You know, but it was a very small town, very, very predominantly white town. They didn't even want the college there because they were running around with Trump banners and Confederate flags. And the town, and the college itself was considered to be liberal, but it really wasn't, you know, it was that, you know, hypocrisy sort of situation. Like we're really liberal, but you know, as long as you stay in your place, we're liberal. I want to jump in because as I'm listening to the stories and this is the thing that I think I am coming to the realization off. And I mean, of course I'm much younger than all of you. And you know, I believe, and I'm excited about as well the importance of us having intergenerational conversations, right? Because, you know, we often have these conversations. We're not the first people to have these conversations, but if we are not speaking intergenerationally, then I think that we both miss out, you know, on what's to be learned. But I think that having navigated just, that's why I said institution because whether it is a radio station or, you know, a studio, you know, or whatever the case is, I actually have clutched my pulse at the realization that the experience almost mimics, you know, it's almost identical. And so, you know, and I think that is while Lisa was talking about, you know, the, I think that what we all share here in common is this idea of also being first generation PhDs. So first of all, you know, doing a PhD and then having to explain to our parents, our communities who don't really understand what this world is about, right? And then adding the experience of me not just being, you know, a black woman, but also being an international student because that's a different level of precarity. But I think that Lisa, you were speaking about the idea of community. And, you know, and I think that for all of us here who believe in them is a patriot potential of education. And I think that that's what becomes so disheartening, right? When you go into academia and you realize that, well, it's still an institution, there's still capitalism. And so therefore those demonic spirits you're speaking of, that's capitalism and all these other isms, right? That are actually, that never really go away or anti-blackness. It just takes different forms and it follows you, whichever space you are in. But on the idea of us having pursued a path of being liberated through pursuing education, that can never happen if we are alienated. And so I think that the importance of community and finding kinship, that is I think a radical tool, you know, a radical technology for survival. And I think that maybe that is also something that we need to stress upon about how do we actually survive and how have we been surviving? And how can we imagine radical futures for how we want to exist in these spaces as artists and as garners? I love that. Sorry, Tonya, I'm going to jump in here. Because to tie together two things that Zama said and also what Africa said about this. First of all, is that people have somehow, despite the fact that I always say this, academia doesn't have, it's still the chair have a show anyone even talking about. Medicine has all those TV shows. But we have all the cup of ganja shows. We have all these shows about the legal field. People don't really have a sense of academia. And then we get a little taste now with chair. But this idea that, you know, people say, you're off all summer and you're like, oh, the hell, my off all summer. I'm like, so, because these books just magically appear that I write, just get coming out of nowhere. I just, you know, classes begin and here's the syllabus. So there's that intergenerational conversations are so important to have. I've never in my life though, felt such walls between the generations until until now to seeing people donning T-shirts saying I'm not my grandmother's whatever. And I'm like, ooh, baby, who was your grandmother? I've never heard of that. So if you, if you're not having conversations every week with somebody in 23 years younger than you and 23 years older than you, then you're not in community with our people. And academia is the real world. And people feel, I think because of this, how I retire, I think the folks kind of get, get comfortable and to find out what's that? Oh my goodness. I might be bleeding back. But you know, so I think that understanding that the, it is the key to navigating the whole society where you've gone to, where'd you go to school? I mean, I hadn't, I hadn't seen this, this week's insecure. But, you know, I also went to Stanford and this idea that, I mean, black, she was talking about AK's, whatever, but I'm like, it's really black Stanford that she was showcasing and that it's a whole world. And I got there and I was like, oh my goodness, you know, and being clear that there are people in the community who look like me, who are not first generation, who have grandparents that ran HBCUs. We're legacy. And we don't have a conversation about black folks who are legacy and how it first ends and legacy people have different experiences. Just put it that way. So I wanted to raise that, but yes to everything. The class thing with academia. Yes. What is the class situation inside academia? Because I ended up at Carnegie Mellon. There really weren't any black people there in Pittsburgh, but you know, is there a class thing between legacy people, international people, first generation people? What's, what's that staff people? Are we doing clicks like that within blackness? I mean, I, it's never been so evident to me about, yeah, classism and, and I think that, and, and also, and that is why at times I have to say as whatever, you know, because I don't really subscribe to the idea of a black middle class because that's such an unstable position. But you know, not to delve on that, but I have to, as a person who's in the academy, but you know, had a grandmother was a domestic worker and then had a mother who had to take herself back to school. And that's a different experience. But when me being in the institution that I'm in, which is a previously white institution, I have to acknowledge my proximity to power. And I think that as scholars as well, we have to be ethical as well then. You know, in terms of how we engage people in our community because yeah, so the idea of class is actually real. I've never been in a room with smart people, sophisticated language who can talk about capitalism and not engage class and race. And it's just like, what world are we in? But you know, people speak around that. And then at an experiential level, you know, outside of what people are reading, but just really, you know, I think when I speak about having an ethical relationship to our communities, I'm speaking to the idea of how sometimes the black middle class can mobilize, you know, the rage of poor people. And that's the only interaction, right? And so in our day to day, how are we actually because, and maybe that is, I mean, it's not for us to resolve. I don't know if we can resolve that, but I think that we are getting some ways we can be honest about those tensions. And yeah, how do we negotiate those tensions? Do you think as a person from the continent, you can actually understand what those tensions are for black Americans? Well, now you're speaking to something more nuanced, right? Because, you know, we've been speaking to the idea that, like, yeah, we all know that blackness is not a monolith, but you know, and, but however, and I think that that's why it's so important to have a diasporic consciousness, because then we can get over that idea, we can understand that black people are and deceive everywhere that we are, right? And that I navigate a different kind of experience being an international student. So just at a pragmatic level. So now we're speaking about ideas of nationhood and how people are excluded from, you know, from citizenship. And then what does that look like? So at a very pragmatic level, that actually looks like me being an international student and not having been able to visit home because I'm in a student visa. And so when we speak and then the idea of class, and so when you have a tenure professor who's been out of that experience or maybe for a very long time or has never experienced that, they don't understand, you know, what it actually, you know, what you are navigating. So I hope I'm answering your question. I mean, there's also the sense that it happens every year, a graduation across the US. People are doing black graduations. Zama, we're having some challenges with your signal. I'm going to ask you to get closer to your internet. You actually are freezing for us. So like what you just said, maybe hear you. I can't hear you now, Tanya. Oh, wow. Oh, I can hear all of you. How about you, Africa? No, I can hear all of you just fine. Okay. Well, then maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just me. Africa, what about the classism for you? I mean, do staff talk to students, talk to professors? I don't think that all staff have the ability to, because I was in communications, I had the ability to really reach out and form connections with staff and with other staff members, with faculty, with students, which I found at the institution, at that particular institution that I was working at, they didn't do. I didn't understand how you could be the voice of the college and want to be so clickish that it's like, listen, this is what we're going to tell you that you're going to talk about or that you're going to do. I mean, actually when I came in, like they were like basically the pariah of the college, the communications department, because of the fact that they did not interact well with faculty, they did not try to form a relationship with faculty and students. And if they did use faculty or students, it was just like the ones that they kind of cherry picked that was like in their little clique with the president, with all the other groups that were really, really cool with some of the donors, because a lot of the donors of the college actually were graduates or alum of the college. So it was really clickish. And I don't have that click mentality. I'm from the East Coast. You know, I'm from Jersey. I don't play that. So like I'm coming out there like totally, you know, disrupting everything. You know, they had going on, but they called me out there to do that. And then when I started doing it, it was like, oh my God, like she's a problem. They're one of my guests on one of our sessions, we talked about how there's an article from Forbes. I'll send it if you like about how black women always come in as the pet, the favorite. Everybody's excited about how great they are, how talented they are, the work they do. And then suddenly they become perceived as a threat because their work is outshining other people's work. And then they get forced out. Is that an experience? Any of you are possibly in the middle of or having your past? Yes, Africa. That actually was the, that is my experience with this particular college. It started with me just trying to be a good team player. We were covering a story about an alum who had graduated and went on to work for the Met. Very prestigious, you know, museum institution of art. And the girl that I was called to work with, she was kind of like dragging her heels. She had one on vacation. And so I thought, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm a filmmaker. I'm a theater maker. I have experience in, in, you know, creating videos. So let me help her out. And just kind of show her the ropes. She came from a background of news and journalism. So she didn't have the background of creating like a polished piece of work. And so I, you know, created this whole presentation to try to help her. And she smiles in my face and says, thank you very much. And goes B lines to our new content director and complaints about how I'm trying to take over. And, you know, how she's offended at what I did. Like I'm trying to take her job. And so then I get called into the principal's office and then told that I'm grassy. And I had never felt so offended in my life because number one, I know what that means. I'm a wordsmith. So basically what you're trying to say is that I'm an obnoxious black woman. All because I was trying to help. I don't think like, I, I, I mean, and it was just such a defeating experience was we're talking about one month into my experience at this college. And I'm in this, I'm going to say me goes white cracker as town where I'm being looked at just to go to the store, you know, and people are looking at me like, oh, I thought we counted all the Negroes in the town at the last meeting. When did this one sneak in? And so I'm thinking the only protection I have is this college community. And I'm realizing I have no community. Anywhere. Sorry. That's very alienating. I mean, I think whatever kids are just going to what it means because people don't realize like, why are you teaching in this particular state or this institution? It's like the NFL. You know, you can't. It's the way position they have opened this season. And that's where you end up going. You're it's a national job market. So then we end up being isolated. Alone or being one of the few. And then so you got three black people in your college or the whole, you know, university, the town. I've navigated that. And then so people are now sort of think, okay, do cluster hires and bring people in together. But there are differences between us. So, you know, how, you know, oh, you were the single woman. Kind of cute. And then the Mary people are like, oh, no, you know, we don't want to break up. Her gumbo. All right. So it's, you know, it's very complex. Very complex. So, you know, I think that what I'm also hearing here is the idea that, you know, inclusion, because the buzzwords right now, equity, diversity, inclusion, and, but I'm hearing all these stories of just compounded trauma, right? And racialized gender and all of these things. And so what we are seeing is that actually inclusion does not equal radical transformation, right? And so I think that that's when those limits of like representations and that's what like my work also tries to interrogate, you know, in terms of, because it can, it really cannibalizes off this trauma-informed need that we have to be seen, right? To be legible to people that do not love us and sometimes that the worst hate us. And so to be seen or to be visible, to be in a room does not actually mean anything. And so I think that we need to have like radical conversations about like, okay, so then what does radical transformation actually look like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I just, I found that, you know, the terms, you know, diversity and inclusion while their grand terms have become sort of like just the new version of affirmative action where, you know, companies, corporations, you know, institutions of high learning are saying, we want to be diverse. We want to be inclusionary. But that just means, okay, I'm going to cherry pick this person so I can have this face in my face to say that I have representation and now we're done. We want your face, but we don't want your experience. You know, it's like the saying, we want the, you know, they want our rhythm, but they don't want our blues. Like that's really what it has started to come down to. It's the same way even with the students. I saw that, you know, international students were a big draw for that college. And a lot of those students came from countries and from the continent. And when they came there, they were just numbers and they didn't have a space really for these students to express themselves, to really understand. And so this is the experience that you're giving these kids. And, you know, I ended up doing a play rights conference while I was working there out in LA. And the gentleman, one of the younger play rights that I was working with happened to know about the college. And I said, I will tell you right now, I would not let, I would not send any, any black person that I know and tell them to go to the school. Like I don't care how prestigious it is. You know, at this point, I personally believe just from that experience that HBCUs are more necessary now than ever because I, when I was a college age, the idea was like, Oh, well, do you really want to go to HBCU? You know, then you're targeted. And I'm like, no, because the whole idea of college outside of getting that degree and getting that paper. So you can get that paper is to have an experience of getting to know yourself and learn yourself and have community. And that is what is so needed for us as people is to have, to understand and have community. Yeah, I'm really concerned about what's going on though, right now at Howard. And we have the takeover Howard right now. Yeah. You know, the HBCUs have these $100 million endowments, but our students are living with black mold and they have housing and security. So. It's complex. Yeah, what do you guys are in there? I mean, I'm all for HBCUs. I'm with Malcolm X. We can't let them teach us. But then I hear that there's respectability policy politics in the HBCUs. And that, you know, they have to count out to the people who are giving them their money and the donors, etc. So. Yeah, it's also me like we are seeking redemption from institutions and I just don't know if that's possible. So whether those institutions are occupied by black people or people of any other race, like that's why you use the institution because it's like part of an entire structure. It's a machine. And and so that is why I'm excited about the fact that, you know, I'm in conversation with, you know, I would say because I've been reading Lucille Kifton. So I would call all of you two-headed woman, you know, but these two-headed women who refuse to be boxed that, you know, you are scholars. You have minds. You are also creatives. And so I'm excited about the role that black feminist or black woman, you know, the role of the imagination, you know, what we are doing to sort of like imagine ourselves out of this mess. And I think that that is the kind of possibility that I'm excited about with our work because I'm so sorry to get theoretical, but and I don't particularly stand for France for none because it's problematic, but I see that there cannot be any ontological resistance in spaces that have been built for and by whiteness. And all of us, that is what we've been trying to do. There's no reconciliation. But I'm like dying to share, though, that like I have such joy in my work, even in the institution. I mean, when I was in the institution where I didn't want to particularly live and with the largest, I think, English department population of black students in the whole system. And I'm still in touch with some of those students. I mean, it was just like a love fest every week. And I knew that if I wasn't here, they wouldn't be getting this. I had to fight your course on Toni Morrison. The whole course? Wasn't that class? It was so crazy. And it was like, do we need a whole course on her? You know, I mean, it was just like my, I'm a ceiling from color purple. I had to fight. No, no, sorry. That's Sophia. Sophia. So did you have a spirit? Is that something you get the joy of fighting to get that thing? No, that's part of the story. Because I live in walking to my classes and just I just man. And I run into them sometimes and New York, I'm like, Oh my God. They follow me online. It's like, and now they're doctors and lawyers and social workers and they're out in the world. And those are my seeds, you know? And they try to bury us, but they ain't nowhere seeds. I'm seeing them. So that was for 20 years of teaching. And then I came here and did the same thing. And these students, next level. And when I got here, I had resources. So I got to bring a ton of pinkings to give a real master class. I could bring Coma Domingo, all these people, I could bring into the university because I was in these different worlds and bring them together and people are still talking to me about, oh my God, I sat in the room with this person now. Look who they are. And I didn't realize and thank you for bringing them there. So there's that and I'm working on that now. I named some things for black folks. There's a visiting performing artist named after the black queer sister that started bringing performance into our department. We have our own gallery. I mean, so in a bad day, I can go down to our gallery and see work of black artists. So- How are you getting away with this in Texas? As the people understand, my hashtag is this is Texas too. People don't understand. It's like, don't sleep. Don't let anybody, cause I come to California. So I know what stereotypes of places are about. Oh, they're all bull block. They're all fake. Are they, they all this and they're like, I hate California, right? You hate the beaches? You mean you hate the mountains? Do you hate the food? You hate the gardens, the farmers market? I mean, I don't walk me through that. So I love New York. I loved everywhere I've been. And I realized Texas is more complex than that. My family, my grade from Louisiana to California, some of them stopped in Texas and they're still here. So I've got another side of my family. You know what I mean? It's always more complex and it's a lot of resistance here. The women, women that's fighting the Supreme court for women's rights, I met here. That's my friend Amy Hector Miller, a white woman radical who was not playing games. It's been, you know, so it's, it's more complex. But I, all that stuff is true. But then I'm like, oh my God, but I'm also in a space where I can now teach course on black feminist creativity and just, you know, just bathing in it. But what just freaks me out is the students, you know, always want to turn to, we shouldn't be criticizing the work of black scholars for we shouldn't be doing this work at all. It should be, it should be, you're opening up to white people to see. It's like, they already know. This is for us. This is for my son to know there's more than, the black life and black death. There's, you know, so I don't know. I want to also share that, because I feel like I make a fraud sometimes and quite a lot of people are like, oh my God, Amy, it's so horrible. I'm like, it is all those things, but I can't lie about the other stuff that it is too for me. Please share that syllabus with me. I'm Toni Morrison, because yeah, I've been raised by her words. And, and I think that, and you know, this is what she did, right? Being able to navigate both institutions, the literature world and the academic world and using her imagination. And I think that, so that we can start imagining ourselves differently. And, you know, this, and I wanted to kind of dispel the myth that the arts are not lucrative or that people cannot survive because that's a lie because I have seen them, but maybe they are just not black women, right? So we then get into the idea of resources and access to resources. And I love that you were speaking about the fact that, you know, it's become this expansive experience for you to be able to not only feed your art, but to be in an institution, having proximity to those resources and then disrupting the syllabus. So you're disrupting the institution and raising other, you know, and raising another new feminist, black feminist, you know, consciousness. So I think that that's the, and that's the radical work that black women, that gender non-conforming people are doing in these institutions, and that is not shared enough. Africa, so how do you mix your art in academia? Actually, I didn't. So I was hired to be a writer for communications and that was all they wanted. I wanted to come in and share, you know, my experiences, but they didn't want that. But God always has a way. God always has a way. And so because of the fact that my editorial director did not want to deal with the arts because she didn't respect the arts, I got all the art assignments. And so one of those assignments happened to be for a theater group that had just formed in the college which was like a grant that they got, a Mellon grant that they were just basically experimenting with this class that was dealing with immigration at the time. And so they were doing an improv play about immigration. And so I was following these groups of students and the professors from the beginning stages all the way up until the show opened. And I'm watching these children go over the edge as far as like, well, how do we do this? And how do we honor their stories and blah, blah, blah. And so I'm watching the professor not really give these kids a response. And so I let them know that it's not, you don't have to worry about whether or not you're honoring their story. You just have to be the witness. And that's all you're required to be as the theater maker in this space is the witness to be the witness to their stories. And it ended up becoming part of the play. And so in the middle of the play, they're talking about their experiences. And then they're like, and Africa Brown said X, Y, and Z. And I found it just so ironic. I'm like, well, look at God, because all this time you've been trying to silence me and the people who I've been wanting to connect with the most, which would be the students ended up respecting my voice and respecting what I had to say in a space that I am familiar with where I live, which is the theater. So I want to say to people listening out there, if you have any questions, you can put them in the chat and Crystal will bring them here for us to ask our panelists here today. This is such an exciting conversation. So we've got an attack on education. I mean, I think that this attack on CRT is an attack on education period. When we have legislation against teaching things that hurt people's feelings, then everybody has a right to say, well, not people's feelings, white people's feelings. Cause we've been hurt for a long time. So it's again. Right, right. But once their feelings get hurt, then somebody else gets to say, well, my feelings are hurt by this. And then we get a class action suit and then the government gets to say, we can't teach. We cannot publicly teach because too many people's feelings are hurt by public education. So what do you see happening with all of that? Woo, one of the things that I'm... All the seeds that are out there are gonna be our teaching. And so that's one, and hopefully also we were belling. But all the people who want to send me cookies after George Floyd need to be going to the school board now. It's like, okay, you know, Crystal or whatever, not you Crystal Chase. But I don't wanna say Karen because, you know, with that's a whole, that's like, because not many Karen friends, but I do have some other friends who wanted, felt so moved and horrified. It's like, well, but I need you to bring that same energy to the school board. We're trying to ban books by Toni Morrison and by, and the story of Frederick Douglass. I mean. Well, that's your state. So how are you gonna keep teaching what you teach in a state where some of this has been banned? It's one is interesting that it has not come up. I'm in the blue bubble. So there's that interesting thing. And it's not K, it's not college. It's K through 12, which is where it really matters. But I've had students who didn't, these laws weren't on the books. They come to my class and I had them openly crying when they found out about the Black Panthers. They had never heard of them in their lives. So it's, we don't need a anti-CRT to do what's been done to the students that I've encountered here, who were like, realize that the part of the crying was about the people that I had loved and looked up to who taught me lie to me or didn't know anything. Cause I'm showing them that, you know, that they was documentary and eyes on the prize and they're just like aghast. And that was like, I teach, of teaching of course, I stopped teaching because I was gonna protect myself and our own health, the whole thing about that before we go about Black women in the Academy and health. But I was called, the revolution will be dramatized and looked at plays and films presenting the civil rights movement, Black Power movement and then Black Lives Matter and then giving them a chance to at the end of this class create work about a movement that's important to them. So whatever it is, some people deal with, you know, veganism but some, and one student was transitioning at the time and I say, well, maybe we'll do something about act up and the student looked at me like blank face, never heard of act up. Something that they need to know that was saved their life that just blew me away. So we're already, we've been doing this before they even started this dust up. These students don't know anything about any of these movements. And it's not like ancient history, act up is not ancient history. So yeah, that's what it's on. In my last year at the school at NYU, the school had just finally decided as a school that they were no longer going to teach. This is a university that there was only one right way to do a scene. I was kind of a guest that they had ever taught that because I've certainly never taught that. But I try to teach students to think and to be self-sufficient and to trust their own instincts and their own ways of knowing. And I think that a lot of the pushback I also got as a teacher is that students want you to tell them what is right and to tell them if they've gotten it right rather than tell them how to figure it out and to come up with a decision that they can live with. Because that's ultimately what you gotta do for your whole life is make a decision and accept the consequences of it. I'm asking you all about your thoughts on that as people who are teaching. Well, for me, I'm not a teacher. I'm a storyteller in the sense of I'm telling these stories, the stories of the college that will entice people to say, this is why I wanna come here. And for me, I think that even the essence like to break it down to education is all about storytelling and the story that we want to tell as a nation, the story that we want to tell as black people. And my issue is that our stories just aren't being told the right way. For me, to tell the story is to really to get at the heart of something. And what was bothering me as far as telling these stories is that it was more about marketing than it was about telling the story. And marketing at the heart of that is manipulation. I want you to feel a certain way so you can buy this product or I want you to feel a certain way so you can subscribe to this service. And so I don't deal that way. And my pushback was always, do we have to try to manipulate people or just say like, these are our truths. Like, this college, we do have issues but we're working on our issues. To me, that is honest. And for me, I would be happy to say, you know what, I have issues and I would want to be somewhere where I know that they're working on their issues other than saying that we're so great. We have 300 days of sunshine here, which was a lot. And all these great things about why you should come here and then you come and it's not what it is. But does that sell? And since universities are capitalist institutions, aren't they competing with everybody else? Yeah, I think so. I think that, you know, in certain ways that they are but in certain ways, you know, I think that the truth at its heart is powerful and that those that will want to be a part of that college are going to come anyway. You know, if you're, you know, a small college and you're trying to compete with Harvard, you know, there is no competition, right? Like, but if you're a small college and you say, this is what we do and this is what we do well, then I think you'll get attract the target audience that you're really looking to attract. So there's a question that came in. Do you think that people of the global majority can truly get a holistic approach to learning in white institutions? Wow, that's a serious question. And I think that, you know, it's something I also wanted to extend upon what Africa, you know, was talking about because, you know, people love talking about these institutions, love talking about decolonization but we love talking about decolonization as well. And really, you know, what does it really mean to enact decolonial forms of knowledge production? And so meaning that we cannot always rely on institutions to do that work. But I'm also seeing something here because, you know, like Africa, you're talking about the ethical work that you are trying to do while you are navigating the institution, you know, Lisa was also sharing her experience. And it's like in as much as this work brings you joy, I'm hearing a lot of just what does it mean for black women to be constantly performing this labor within these institutions just so that, you know, we can kind of all survive. And, you know, and then again, I think the part that we're talking about having intergenerational conversations because, hey, I mean, I'm a younger scholar. So, you know, as scholars, as creatives who have had more longevity in terms of navigating those institutions, what are the... And how can we also draw from, I don't know. And for me, I draw from ancestry, you know, ancestral memory, ancestral wisdom because I know that I cannot rely on a VITS or UCLA or any other institution to teach me things that quite frankly, my ancestors, you know, I already knew coming in. So I think that it's having a different approach altogether to how we are, you know, entering the institution and what we are trying to do. But I'm excited about the fact that we are... This conversation in itself, this is the colonial knowledge production for people who are listening to be learning, taking away, you know, this idea that access... But taking away the idea that education is not just tied to an institution, yeah. I love that. That part, you know, for me, I grew up a little different. I've always felt like intergenerational in my whole life because I am literally the last human of my generation and that generation spans a very long time. Like, my grandmother was a slave in a sharecropper. Like, I was born late. So I got the chance to experience different things and the idea and the beauty of having elders who will teach you about a time when you weren't alive that will give you an appreciation. My father was a Black Panther. So, you know, the idea of education and knowing our history and knowing ourselves was very prevalent in my household. And so, you know, I was always able to go out in the world and have this level of confidence of knowing, like, I know who I am. And that is because it started at home, you know. And my parents... Are you writing the book? I'm sorry? Are you writing the book, Africa, so we can get this history of ancestors? Are you writing the book? It's coming out through my plays and my screenplays. Okay. We have another question. How do Black women protect their mental health in the academic space? What are the tools? Always pay yourself first. Always. And third. First, second, and third. So, mind, body, and spirit, all... And then you go out into the rest of it. And if you find yourself having, considering an unusual workload for me this month, I was on a very important committee. And so, I had to recalibrate and only do what you want that day. But I have a running joke that I use with my friends. I'm like, if this machine of this way, this country operates, is designed to kill us, am I going to help them? And never explain to people your availability. Just figure out what you need to get done. My meditation time, my exercise time, and prayer, mind, body, spirit, yeah. And then, I'm available at 11. I used to just say, well, I work out during that time. It's like, no, I don't have to give you my itinerary. I'm available at 11 on Tuesday. Founder, hello. It's feeling like I'm going to be accountable. Oh, the fact that I'm only available that late in the day to miss me, I'm late. I get up at five a.m., but that's my time. And so, doing your work when you're freshest and purest, that's why I start to understand our ancestral stuff, that things that get embedded in me, I realize, even dealing with my child, I'm like, oh, so some things he's not going to understand until I've been dead for 10, 20 years. And that's okay. Because that's when things that my mother taught me, I'm hearing it very loud and clear, all of them when the pandemic started. All their practices, I'm like, oh, it was always there, but it just came into a sharp focus. Remembering her, when the rituals was, we used to walk together. And since the gyms were closed, I was walking, and I always walked out, I'm very big on gym, but we couldn't do it. Just thinking about that. So that's the way we're doing it, keeping those things. And what is my purpose, what am I doing? So when I go in the classroom, I know I'm passing along these things that I love, this archive of black brilliance and I'm also a champion of black mediocrity. What does that mean? I think it's being regular. I'm not just trying to celebrate super Negroes. To me, the Quasity of the day-to-day, people that raised me and allowed me and took care of me, didn't get a MacArthur. They never got a Ford Foundation grant. They never got any of that. I'd have a picture of my grandmother in her maids uniform on my desk, real clear about what I consider, I value. I love going to this vineyard. I'm not gonna lie, it's cute. But I also loved hanging out with my dad at the barbershop on 3rd Street and I mean, loved that with his friends. And hearing, it struck me more than anything, was hearing what I learned in my sociology graduate course being said in the barbershop that same summer. Left school in May, hanging out with my dad and his friends. Same analysis, different words. About the social structure, it was going on in the economy. So I'm like, I know we're not stupid. I know we're not any of those things of people. That's basic. And it drew me to my son's father, who's a Nigerian. So my son, he's a true African-American, right? So I want to go back to that whole thing about the, second-gen Africans and first-gen Africans and African immigrants and how that's all happening at the university. But that is, that sense of himself as, I know I'm involved in all these things. I mean, you think I'm inferior? Tell me more about that. That's a fascinating. Go on. And he is super, super, super brilliant in all these other things. But I really want us to relax. And I love the NAP ministry, but people are following the NAP ministry on, the bishop is not playing games out here. They don't, damn. And my mom wouldn't nap all the time. My favorite aunt wouldn't nap all the time. Every, yeah, napping rituals. And I have all my mother's housecoats in my closet. She's passed on. And so it's like, that's it. That's it. So yeah. And get you a fine, get you a fine, fine, fine trainer. Keeps you inspired. I love that. I'm gonna take that one. Yes, yes. Ladies, did you have any other tools for the mental health in academia? I think that what, you know, and what, I mean, I think that a lot of us had to introspect, you know, during the pandemic, really what fortifies us. And I love, and the idea that I even mentioned, ancestral memory is because that is something that has been a constant to me. What fortifies me is umsam and basically a translation of umsamu is ma alta, you know? The connection that I have with those people, like the understanding that life is not just here. It's more than what I see. Understanding that the experiences that I'm having are not new, you know? Understanding that I'm connected to a larger lineage. And I think that black feminism, you know, also does that. But so spirituality, I think, you know, I'm South African. So we truly just dance. And it took me the pandemic to realize that the quickest way for me to get into my body and really that it's a spiritual experience for me is to just dance. And there's this new sound, I'm a piano, that I want all of you. I'll probably send a playlist to all of you because that's been changing my life. You know, I'm a piano. It's basically a genre of house music that comes from South Africa. And that has truly, it's given me, listen, I'm just like, if you know, you know, hashtag Yanos is life that has truly been giving me life because black creativity, you know, I'm constantly inspired by, you know, what we create, what we make. And getting closer to that experience from your cultivating time every day is what has really kept me, you know, fortified. But community, you know, community is so important because then, and that's why I was talking about the fact that like walking into UCLA or any other room that I would walk in because I'm my grandmother's child, even though she doesn't walk on this earth anymore, I know who I am. So there is no power that is going to, you know, I'm not seeking validation. And I think that then that changes the narrative for how we engage with these institutions, you know. So that's the thing that I've been leaning into, you know, remembering who my mothers are, remembering who my grandmothers are, the squad is so deep and that gives me strength. Yeah. Tools Africa. Well, dance has always been my go-to. I always say that, you know, writing is the gift from God and dance is my conversation with God. And I'm a house head going way back. We talk in shelter house head, body and soul house head. If you come to New York, you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Zanzibar house head from New Jersey. So dance is very integral to my creative process, to my process as far as how I regulate myself, my body and my spirituality. But for me, my biggest was prayer and just staying in step with God. You know, I know that God has a journey for all of us and we were all placed at the institutions that we were placed in for a reason, whether it was for a long period of time or a short period of time, like I was, I was there for a reason. And I know that, you know, whatever God's will was in that time, it did get accomplished. And so I didn't have to be there for a long period of time, but being in a town where I couldn't even dance because they didn't even have bars, I tell you, it was like footloose. And so that got taken away from me, you know, having a relationship with God and realizing that, you know, I'm letting this place control my mental space. I remember walking to work and I would walk to work every day and listen to Yolanda Adams, you know, the battle is the Lord's and that, and just one day just getting convicted, like this is, you're not just here for this woman, you're not here for this reason, like I put you here for a reason. And that propelled me to be able to, you know, deal with the stripes, deal with all the things that I had to deal with and keep moving forward until it just got to a point where I had to let go and that was okay. And it was really, I think, it was a time for me to claim what I was gonna deal with and express my own boundaries because I walked away from that institution and I walked away with some money. Because before it was gonna bring me out to the middle of nowhere, treat me like you treated me, basically forced me out the door and make me choose between my dying mother and my job and think you were gonna get away with it. Yeah, that helped a lot. It's not just daughter of a Black Panther. She's right, nope. I think that answers partially one of the other questions, which is, what do you say to your younger self to prepare for this space of academia? That's so interesting. I feel like it was a revisit of something that happened to me 20 years ago. And 20 years ago, I had met basically my, you know, I'm not gonna even say his name, he's passed on, but, and I do admire his work, but he was my everything. He was my poetry, everything, and I met him and I gave him my work and it was a bunch of love poems. I did not dare give him any of my revolutionary, more militant poetry. And he told me, well, you'll probably end up getting published because America's into bourgeois Black females. And it just crushed my spirit because you're saying everything that I'm not. And, you know, and it made you realize that if this is what my voice is portraying in the world, then I have no voice and it really made me not wanna write. So that's why I ended up going into the corporate space. And like I said, God always has a way. Like his will will be done. Like you are, I put you here to write, girl, that's what you're gonna do. And then I end up in this space where once again, my voice is being, I'm being told that my voice isn't valid. But this time I had the tools to say, uh-uh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You will not silence me. I'm gonna continue and I'm gonna do things my way. You can butcher and chop up my work any way you want to, but I'm gonna give you me every single time. Yes. Things you would say to your younger self to prepare for academia, the academic space. There's nothing I could say, but mine would be more talking to the artist. And telling, I would be talking to the artist. That's the, academic was like, that was easy part. For me, academia is, my art is my soul. And academia is my intellectual heart. And that, you know, but when you talk, you know, these are my, you know, that's my baby. So that, that was the part that I needed talking to. And what Africa said was, what's for you is for you. Like I said, I was writing, I mean, I was kicking and screaming, you don't believe, I mean, people were like, they wanna do the show. I'm like, oh man, when they wanna do off Broadway, I was six months, eight months pregnant. I mean, it was like, I'm not, they opened off, he was six months old and opened. It will happen. Your art will make, it will force itself into the world. So I'll tell them that person, you know, that is, one is that you were right when you walked into the classroom the first time though, too, and realized, oh, you can do both of my advisor, Harry Elam, who's president of Occidental now. He was like, you can do this other world. You wanna be a playwright. And knowing that an artist scholar is a valid title and thing that, and so I'm actually building the artist scholar initiative here at UT Austin with some of the money from my name, professorship. And I'm gonna have a symposium for, but in contemporary art scholars, but I also pay homage to our foremothers and fathers. So Toni Morrison's an artist scholar, Du Bois' artist scholar, it's probably a birthday, all these people that passed away who I wanna leave. So I wanna honor them celebrating together our community and also leave some crumbs for the follow for the rose behind. So that's the thing to tell myself that, and help them run you your coins, whatever world you're in, run me my reparations, a character in beloved stamp paid, you got that to do. And today's price is not yesterday's price. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Wow. I mean, I'm still navigating the institution, but I think that's to echo what you said, because getting into the academy, I then, that took me further away from my artistic practice. And so now I've been on a journey of actually reclaiming that and actually advocating for that in my scholarship. And that's the thing I'm most excited about. And so I think that that would be the advice, that I would give myself. But again, I think that it's the idea of community. Again, I just cannot stress it enough because the minute, if your idea is that you are seeking some kind of liberation or you are trying to get free, that is not gonna happen when you are alienated from a community. So thinking of alternative communities or how we actually create those within the academy is something that, yeah, that I would advise. But I mean, I think that you're also doing very important work about claiming this dual role of like artist scholar. And I think especially for a lot of us who are black and as black woman where you are the first-gen or we haven't actually had an opportunity to even, that's why I was saying, let's dispel the myth that one can actually sustain and live a fruitful life, being an artist. But it's more so about how do we get access to those resources. Just one little thing to tinder in. Well, there's another question here and it is that the pandemic brought a racial reckoning to the front doors of white America. What was it like navigating that in academia and is there hope for the future with Gen Z? Always hope, always hope. Can you repeat the question, Tanya? It's okay. The pandemic brought a racial reckoning to the front door of white America. What was it like navigating that in academia and is there hope for the future with Gen X? I'm gonna speak to it first. I don't really feel that it brought a racial reckoning. I think what happened is it got very uncomfortable and whenever it gets uncomfortable, people do whatever it takes to get comfortable. And then once it gets comfortable, they fall back to the things that they were doing before and nothing really changes. And as we have seen just as a point of fact, the billions of dollars that were pledged for programs to help global majority people, the money didn't come through. I think for me, the best part of the racial reckoning was that for the first time in 400 years of settler colonial capitalism, people were forced off of the treadmill and realized that they didn't have to get back on it. And so I think that the capitalists thought this was going to create the largest body of exploitable labor since slavery, that did not happen. But what I don't yet see is anybody with a vision for a world that works for not even just all of us, but for the majority of us. So yes, there's always hope. I think the world is moving towards, evolving towards higher levels of good, even when it doesn't look like it. I think that being South African and having been raised under Nelson Mandela's rainbow nation and then moving to the States and seeing this posturing of like post-racial society. I think that I have a, and I mentioned the fact that I'm South Africa because I grew up, I was part of the rainbow nation generation and we were sold this lie, right? And so we understand that actually they, we are not in a post-racial society. So in term, speaking to the idea that last year we came into a reckoning, that's because we never had a real conversation around how we had never actually transcended or moved beyond institutionalized racism because it still exists and it's sanctified in policies and what have you. So if we are going to have like a real conversation about racial reckoning, it's that's what I've been talking about, radical transformation, which has to be reflective. And so I think that the second part of your question I kind of forgot. Oh, for generation Z. Oh, there's always hope. I think that well, because I drew a lot from black feminism and the work was created because there's a radical hope and radical faith and we are trying to build those worlds. So I'm always excited. And I mean, because I teach a young age, I'm a millennial and I teach, is it Gen Z? And I'm constantly excited. I'm constantly energized by that intergenerational exchange and the sincerity from the students who actually come into the classroom, being so open to having the theory transform them and do something real in their lives. That actually gives me hope. Africa. I like you, Tanya, agree with the fact that I just feel that there was a unique moment with the pandemic and everything that happened because people were sitting at home. But when I was in academia, like I left in 2019, so it was before the pandemic, before George Floyd. And there was a sort of racial reckoning that was happening at the college that I was in that I happened to be a part of because the students were in the uproar, the faculty was in the uproar and I just myself was in the uproar. And I realized that I had to leave. But I also want to say about Gen Z, I don't want the onus to be on Gen Z. It is a collective, it is all of us. I'm not looking for Gen Z to lead the way because there's still people in Gen X and my generation that have things to say and things to do. And so we need to look at it as, and from a community perspective and say, what can we do as a body of people? If you're the hands, be the hands. If you're the head, be the head. If you're the foot, be the foot and do what we have to do collectively and not just look to the next generation, the way we have been taught to, oh, it's the next generation's responsibility to do this. It's the next generation. No, while we're still here, we have work to do. Oh, yes. And also let people play those roles and don't expect the artists to do everything. It's like, that's the thing I feel like, you know, we're putting a lot of pressure on our black artists right now is if they're not going through the same pandemonium and panini, we're all going through. It's like, well, why can't you make a perfect film that doesn't show any horror? Because I'm horrified. That's fine. I'm sorry. My art is real. I'm horrified. I'm horrified. So I can't thank you. I'm horrified. Red Pill is a horror movie because I was like, I want the horror that I see. Yes, but yeah. But it's about not also going into the art of storytelling, you know, seeking some kind of corrective measure. You know, that is not where the collective liberation for black people is going to unfold. Because also, you know, and the idea of also, we're going to have to get into more intracommunal conversations. That's a part I'm excited about because I'm just so bored of constantly, you know, speaking back to or constantly having to engage the white gaze because it really robs us of our imagination for how we envision ourselves and so that we can resolve then what is happening at an intracommunal level and we can have a conversation about what does liberation look for us because it's different for all of us, right? But a movie, a film, a play, I think that looking for that thing to bear, you know, the weight of serving some kind of corrective redemption for all black people is unfair, you know. And that is why I'm saying, I mean, for you, Tanya, for you to tell the story, the thing that you are doing is the radical work that we are excited about. Thank you. I feel like everybody needs to tell their specific story, their specific decolonized mind story, the one that they didn't even know that they couldn't think until their mind got so decolonized that they could see what was actually there behind all of the layers of colonization. So it's 5.18, we have about 12 minutes left. And the reason I started this was because all the black women I know are brilliant. We're juggling a million things at once. We do everything better than everybody. If they just got out of the way and let us run the world, it would be just better for everybody. And we just step in and do what needs to be done. We don't wait to be asked. We don't wait to get credit. We just see something that needs to be done and we get it done. That is the black women that I know. And so I wanted to create a space which is this space to center black women and have you voice and put into the world. What do you want? What do you need? There may be someone who is listening who can provide it, who can give it, who doesn't even know you, who can just anonymously give to you in the way that I know that you as black women are constantly giving. You can think for a moment, but what do you want? What do you need? You're just putting it out there, like we're two or more gathered together in my name, there I will be. So we are here and we're sort of manifesting something right here. What do you want? Center the energy on yourself. And what do you want? What do you need? What is out there in the world that just by putting it out there, your word is gonna become law this day? Oh, I want every black woman who deserves what will desires love in the physical manifestation to get that, to not be, have any hunger, touch hunger or to be fulfilled physically loved. Down to the, all the... So you want, I'm gonna put that back to you. You want that for yourself, because I said for you. Yes. You want anything in the world. Because I'm starting to have that. And I'm like, ooh, I haven't forgotten. It's been such a long time. I thought I forgot that I was fine. I don't want it for everybody else. But yes, I'm teaching myself to allow it again. Because I... Okay, so what do you want? What do you want? You wanna feel more of it. You wanna enjoy more of it. You wanna just love, love, love, love, physical coming your way. Not be scared of it. And what might happen if... Yes. Not that, that. Because remember last time, the last five times. So yeah. Yeah, I'll take some of that. Let me see, you know. And I want health. I want the machinations of supply supremacy to not kill me early. Very, very, I really want that. And I don't wanna have to work so hard to keep it from happening. To stop having to defend against it. Yeah. And I've been sitting here this whole time freaking out with my son being with me. I mean, just how much of my health has been affected by watching the clock with my son late and not having heard. Have you heard from him? Because I got me worried, too. Yeah, he's here now. That, you know, that... But have you heard from him now? Yes, he's in the house. Okay. But having... That's important. But holding all that with that and trying to be still perform while you're thinking all the things. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The toll. I know that one, yes. The toll, the toll. So yeah, I wanna be absent of that next. Yeah. At her peace, you know, and to have audacity, you know, to just have audacity to live the life that I envisioned for myself and to abandon all fear. I think that that is really what I desire for myself and to cultivate that and push towards that with a sense of tenderness and gentleness. I want softness. I don't want to have to, you know, I mean, of course, there is struggle, but I no longer want the strong black woman narrative attached to my name, you know. I want that for all of us. And yeah, to live a full life and to live it audaciously. Yes. And what can any of us give to you for that? Money, money, money. Okay. I mean, because, I mean, I think I tell your cash app so people wanna donate. Oh damn, I was, you know, I've been thinking about this thing because, and especially amongst my generation, and I think it's because I don't have a cash app. I've never given out like my cash app details publicly. I don't know, I've been negotiating that, but my Venmo is, I think it's Edzamatube. But I mean, I was talking about money in the sense that a lot of times when institutions are talking about supporting people, you know, oftentimes I've noticed that people already have what they need. They just need resources, you know, we don't need like the inspiration. Don't give me the advice. It's just like the resources to get me closer to the thing that I desire. Yes. I just was writing in my book. Forget these mentors where you sit down and have a conversation with somebody like you're doing them a favor. Then they need, give it to them. You see an opportunity that would help them give me with a college credit or a published play. Like I moved them to the last next level. No more mentoring conversations because we can read books. We can listen to podcasts. I don't need a mentoring sponsor. I need a sponsor, not a mentor. Yeah, do something. Africa. I think I would have to piggyback on what Zama said. And this is simply resources. As an independent artist, I have been a one man band for a long time. I've been, you know, producing my own work and God just happened to give me a play that I'm in the works with right now that is bigger than what I could do with my own resources. And so now I'm a two man band because Crystal graciously decided to come on as a lead producer for this play. And so I'm speaking for her. As much as I'm speaking for myself, we do need resources. We need people to invest in this play. And I'm not just saying this because I wrote it and it's my baby, but I do think it is something that can move the needle in the conversation forward about race in America. Okay. What's the name of the play? Where do we donate? Okay. The name of the play is called The Fight and it takes place on the day of the first Ali Frazier fight. And right now I don't have a place where you could donate but I do have a PayPal. Okay. And it is Africa with a K, B as in Bravo, A as in Alpha, U as in under, G as in golf at yahoo.com. Okay. Oh, sorry, Africa beat all eight. And after the G is the number eight. Oh, Africa beat all eight. Drop it, drop it, drop it in the chat. I'll drop it in the chat. Okay. I dropped mine in the chat. Eight, Africa, B, A, U, G, A and The Fight. Yes. And the name of the title of the play is The Fight. Thank you. Thank you. And Lisa's Venmo is Lisa B. Tom's Lisa hyphen B hyphen Thompson, Thompson with a P, T, H, O, M, P, S, O, N. I mean, all of us just degree sources. I like you. I invest in myself. I produce myself because the waiting around for somebody to put you on their leash to decide if you will jump high enough for them to give you what you want. And I've noticed that people often want me to do what they want me to do, but they are not willing to support me in doing what I want to do and what I'm good at doing. Yes. So I've never said what I wanted. Yes. I would like resources to help me do what I want to do and what I'm good at doing, what I was put here on this earth to do. I'm so grateful to you all for being in conversation with me. I want to thank Crystal Chase who put it together. Come on, Crystal. This is our sixth and our last collaboration with HowlRound that is hosted these last six months since May. I'm grateful to everyone who's listened in. I know that I have learned a lot and been inspired and grateful to meet all of you and connect with such brilliant, powerful black women. There's so many of us out there and we've got to stay connected to each other and just stay safe and blessings to all of you as you go out into the world. Thank you. Ew. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you so much for this forum and this space. Yes. I want you to have a permanent place that I could, a channel. We lovely. Yes. This needs to be a podcast. I really like that. I'm going to, this will probably at the end of this, Crystal will give me the recording and I do have a podcast called You Can't Say That which is at bpn.fm forward slash ycst and I will turn it into the audio and put it on my podcast where people who listen there can find it. That's its own story of itself. So it's not like quite academia but it's very much like it. No. Thank you. If you want to listen and you can listen again you'll find them all five on YouTube. This one will go up on YouTube in a couple of days and ladies if you'll hang on the phone when we close the live stream, we just have a few more things to say to you and thank you again. Thank you Tanya for your vision and your generosity. Yes. It's been a delight to be in conversation with you all and to learn from all of you. I'm so inspired and to meet all of you two headed women because that's what we all are. Yeah. So looking forward to us having more conversations after this. Yeah.