 Welcome everyone to the Plenty Commission meeting this evening. We are going to be doing some additional discussion on our Zoning amendments related to the Essex town center. Also known as ETC next This is our fun and exciting night where we actually The weeds Where's the weeds not the weeds? Okay So before we get going I have no amendments to the agenda this evening. Is anyone like to offer any sort of public comment for us? Moving right along So who's gonna lead us through this evening our cane will lead you through you have it take us on our trip. Okay You want to throw up the power point? I know I'm trying to get the mouse to get over there. There it goes. There we go. Awesome This is stretching my eyesight. Okay, great. So thanks the Commission for the time tonight. I said this is the second of 14 meetings I think we'll be having over the course of this process. I Thought it would be good today to spend a little bit of time Recapping some of the last meetings discussion. I know I know staff has done a little bit of a work to sort of consolidate that and Darren's come up with a good Spreadsheet to sort of track issues, which is great. I don't have that loaded or not Okay, we need to talk about that But I thought it was good discussion and what we're gonna try to do at each meeting is is Maybe touch a little bit on what happened the last one and now I see the focus of today's discussion is things like setback zoning Setbacks frontages block coverage. Those are the three big things we want to talk about today but spell a little time talking about the the Last meeting do the do this meeting and that'll tee us up for next time and I was just talking to Sharon I think what other thing we're gonna do is we're gonna go through probably three meetings with the Commission and then have a meeting with staff to sort of Digest all of what's been said Consolidated into some narrative form that you guys can take and that will also help to track make sure we're getting the input for you Accurately and we can then reflect it back to staff in a way that's going to be constructive towards building the ultimate zoning plan so with respect to that We'd spoken last time the Commission and I don't want to lose the focus of This planning meeting I don't want to lose the focus of what we've scheduled for So the bike rack and everything the bike rack Instead of a parking lot The bike rack is secondary on on this meeting We can go over it. Yeah, that's fine, but I don't want to Unless the Commission, you know if we get something people want to dig into great But I'd like to make sure that we keep the focus for what we scheduled for and then fill in afterwards If we need to get into the weeds because we talked about With the bike rack items Those we would maybe they may be resolved Further in or we need to do a separate in-depth discussion on them as we get going So just keep in mind that but I don't want to lose the the nightly scope Yeah, that's true And we then that's one reason why you specifically structured these meetings to around those topical areas I think the only thing I was thinking about in terms of the recap was just to make sure that we can kind of bridge Each of these issues because one of the things you'll see as we go along here Is that all of the issues at at the end of it combined together? So we've broken all of these pieces out into separate discussions, but they're all interrelated As I go through discussion today, you'll see we're going to start talking about like form of structures as it relates to setbacks They're they're almost inextricable at the end of this thing. So there will be I think a little bit of of Connecting tissue between each of these meetings. That's really important to talk about and on that front What I wanted to make sure you know We sort of think about from the last meeting is I there was general concurrence that we heard from the Planet Commission about this idea That there are these distinct districts that they will have some individual characteristics That are important to catch to capture. So obviously tonight's discussion will be relevant to that there are Some districts within the the neighborhoods that were defined in the in the draft ETC plan that are going to have higher densities and more it more of a contemporary urban sort of look and feel and So that obviously we're reflecting some of how the way the frontage user dealt with and how the setbacks are dealt with So I don't want to get into the weeds as you said and there's a there's a number of items on the bike rack that Are going to need to be addressed eventually, but from a big picture perspective and for the benefit of the of the audience this idea that the ETC next master plan will inform the development of some new districts is kind of the big takeaway and that we're committing now to Trying to find ways to give those each of those distinctive districts their own flavor So that they they they can actually help the committee achieve the vision that's been established That's really the big takeaway So just by then obviously what I want to go through some definitions I've pulled some definitions out of your zone at current zoning regulations because I think it's good to know kind of where we're starting from and How that might be Coopted as we were likely to do because you have a lot of good things to work within the current zoning or in where there may be some Needs to tweak the language so that it matches up with the needs for the the form-based code approach I want to spend a fair amount of time talking about the transects and we introduced that I think at the original meeting we've introduced it a few other times as along the way But now it's actually a really good way of thinking about these steps as we move forward and I'll spend a little time with that We want to talk about frontages specifically and I'll introduce some concepts around that setbacks specifically concepts around that and then the last but not least lot coverage and One of the things that we'll need to work with the planning commission on is make sure that we're We've got a plan of attack to deal with the fact that in some cases we're dealing with and actually in most cases in the ETC It's not green land. It's there's already existing things there. So, you know, we want to be careful about Making huge dimensional Changes that would make non-conformity a problem. So that's that's some things we want to walk Sharon will jump in if I say something stupid or Or when she feels it's appropriate Okay, so transect and we'll sort of walk through these but transects just for everybody's benefit I'll show a graphic of this in a second but transect is basically a tool that helps us understand the relationship between the land development platter and density across the spectrum and And it across the spectrum of organizational structures complexity of design and Again density, so it helps us understand so you got rural you can get a rural part of the transect You can get a very urban part of the transect and and what we actually see in the ETC is is actually a fairly wide spectrum It's not all urban. The whole thing is not the mixed-use commercial core. There is the historic district There is the rural residential rural recreation area. We talked about which has a little different pattern of development Now and likely in the future. So you you know, we have a we have a cross-section of the Of the of the transect within the ETC No, it's it's an abstraction. Yeah, it's a way to organize your thinking around zoning districts or transect zones Right. It's it's basically the basis A transect zone is the equivalent of a zoning could be the equivalent of the zoning district But the transects excel it presents the whole range as Mark said. Yeah, so basically it's trying to Diagram might help. Yeah. Well, we get a diagram. I think it will help you But I think it generally what it's trying to do is paint the picture that within a kid within a place You know, you will have areas of lower density You'll have higher density and there should be some transition through that some continuous Elements some continuity between that so there's not these really stark and dramatic changes as much as possible And maybe I'll just quickly add that you know in the master plan We did suggest doing a hybrid code, which was a combination of the current zoning and the Form base there's different types of form base codes, too We can talk about but the transect comes out of the form base code end of that Yeah, and and that's that's that's why I think it is helpful for discussion So also in the current zoning regulations you define frontage lot and again This is not something that's you've dealt with this in other instances for zoomably It's the horizontal It's the horizontal distance measured along the property line that separates the lot from a public or private street so it's basically the the distance the horizontal distance on the frontage of a lot as it relates to a public street and That is something as we'll see later on Consisted with how form base code looks at front edges, but there's another dimension of that It actually relates it brings into the concept the relationship between the building or the structure of the use and the public street And that's a really important concept that again in terms of a in terms of both The form base code aspects of what we're doing but also to achieve the vision that's been established in the draft that relationship between structure and The public street is really important and I think some equivalent under your current zoning again I we present we also provided sort of a glossary of how terms are used But it it's the equivalent of your front yard area now as you define it And as Mark noted under form base code you take a lot harder look at what's in that that setback or yard area in the front Setback Building to be set back Potentially yeah, it's you know as Mark said normally under zoning We define a frontage in a minimum setback a minimum setback But and under form base code you usually define a range like a minimum a maximum setback Yeah, and also you have the other thing and this is where everything kind of comes together You know within the form base code you define specific building forms that fit within a specific district Right so the those different forms will have to relate to the frontage as we established So those minimum maximums that Sharon was talking about you couldn't propose a form that didn't fit into those Parameters that's where there's a there's an interaction between these dimensional requirements and suggestions And then the forms that support them So that's why we're doing this first so we can have the conversation with you because at the end when we Pick out which forms actually make some sense to go in each district We can make sure a test that they actually can work. That's really the key thing Setback again, this is the this is the distance from the road to the for part right of way to delineated features It basically is this obviously code something very familiar with you get your front setback You get side setbacks get rear setbacks as Sharon said and you already have in code Some questions your code, you know, you can look at minimum setbacks You can look at maximum setbacks and we will talk about that today in terms of That what are the ranges that are appropriate relative to that Well, one big thing that I think is important to recognize is that as we get into some of the more denser more urban Districts there probably will be some pressure in order to achieve the outcome to reduce setbacks Oftentimes in the most urban districts. There's virtually no side yard setbacks Zero lot line you may have heard of the expression And you actually do have that in your in your very core commercial mixed-use district commercial district You have a zero side, right? So you're going to see a lot of parallels to that district as it reflects to form-based skills now We don't you know at this point don't know how it's going to apply globally within the ETC And I can argue that we're not going to have the same setbacks across all of the districts within the ETC But in general, I think that you're going to be you know one of the things that will be important to think about as this process moves forward is is Setbacks are going to get less or there's a suggestion setbacks will get smaller in general because the idea is you want to increase the density You want to allow for higher densities than are typically allowed right now? And then lot coverage, you know, you basically that is the area of a lot measured square feet That's covered by buildings accessory structures parking areas walkways drag trails paths all the stuff you do and its measures of percentage So we've got some things within lot coverage that are going to need to be Thought about and that is again as we move into the more dense types of districts the Lot coverage is allowances become larger At the at the T5 we call transit five level you can get to 80 90% lot coverage and those are generally minimums Because the idea is when you get to that level of density You shouldn't be you should be trying to maximize the lot and so the setbacks would need to be really small to be able to accommodate that The a lot the struck the forms that would be allowed need to be flexible enough to accommodate that you couldn't allow a single family Form in a district where you're trying to get 90% lot coverage. You'd have some really crazy single-family homes So the idea is is the you know that again terms of parameters for ETC next Are going to be looking at maybe the block courage needs to go up a little bit than what you've been accustomed to in some of the existing districts to make this vision a possibility We'll talk also. There's consequence of that and that's and that's related to stormwater You need enough room on the property to handle stormwater. You have ETC is not without constraints. There's land within the ETC. That's highly constrained So there may be some challenges to achieving the ideals of some of those densities So we need to talk about that. Yeah, especially without shared infrastructure, right? So this is this is the transect and I sort of walking from Left to right T1 natural zone T2 rural zone T3 sub urban zone T4 general urban zone T5 urban center zone and T6 urban core zone So for the purposes of our conversation with Essex, you can take this off the table. This is New York City But you you know the rest in if you look more broadly in the entire town you've got all of these sort of in play In general what you do is you move from left to right This is lower density. This is higher density and it's obviously indicative of the forms that's there It's also a less grid oriented pattern of roads and more grid oriented pattern the roads and that's a again That's a very consistent thing throughout the transect you want to see as you get more dense you want to see a pattern of Development that it becomes more grid oriented to make it more walkable and to make it more efficient in terms of design and development Um frontage yet, you know, so when you have a Less dense zone how you define frontage requirements can be a lot less Regimented, but when you get to more urban forms, it's really important to define How buildings relate to the street so that the both they both in terms take take advantage of the pattern of development You try to achieve but also create usable spaces outside of the building envelope If you don't tell if you don't tell folks what you expect you won't get a pattern that you want That's basically the bottom line there Setbacks again generally speaking there's this there's larger setbacks. You have more spaces between properties This is much more of your typical PRD plan residential development patterns You see but as you get into the more dense forms the setbacks become smaller and everything becomes a little more compact So there's a kind of increasing level or sorry. Yeah, there's an increasing level of of Or decreasing level of setback requirements so you can achieve some of the patterns you're trying to achieve You know, I'll just quickly add that again this comes out of the form-based code This is pretty standard to all different types of form-based codes We forwarded some examples of what's called the smart code It's been around for since the 1990s and it's an open source code So a lot of people have pitched in on working on that over the years And it actually has become what I would consider a hybrid code from the form-based code side So I think it's somewhat more accessible to folks who are working from their conventional zoning Looking at those examples. So some of the examples we're pulling out of that Will hopefully Come into updating the regs. Yeah It's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty well-organized structured Model and I think it does have a lot of as Sharon said I agree with it has a lot of value because they've They've they've tended to sort of soften it with sort of contemporary zoning traditional zoning Issues and approaches so it doesn't have the sort of the rigor at that Like like one of the big things that a traditional form-based code needs is a regulating plan And that's a very specific plan that actually it's like the master plan that is just prescriptive it shows you what you need to do and The hybrid code we're suggesting will not have a regulating plan But you can kind of get to you can you can achieve a lot of the objectives that you want to try to achieve through the master plan by setting these zones up so that they they They champion these different types of transects and that's one thing I think the smart code does a really good job of doing a sort of painting that picture We've taken a you know again if you sort of look at what we've provided it There's there is a you know some analogies some corollaries I should say between the the transect model and and the existing neighborhoods as they're described in the ETC master plan Draft I mean the the the mixed use north and mixed use scouts south would would essentially fall into the urban center t5 form Diszones it's really consistent very grid oriented more dense more focus on on The public frontages and the the relationship between building in the and the public realm as we'll talk about Much more focus on connectivity Those sorts of things if you go down to the residential district you look at the existing residential pattern in the ETC now It looks so largely like this It could probably be a little more grid oriented than it is But again with some infill and some expansion maybe that's possible But essentially you have you have a lot less dense a lot more single-family homes a lot more Traditional pattern of development. That's that's a lot of what the suburban zone looks like and then you know for for a portion of the ETC that transition area that we've actually been you know work in the Neighborhood commercial it's a little bit of this and I think some of the infill that would be developed in that transition zone along route 15 And that sort of land beyond would probably fall well into this sort of pattern where it's going to be smaller lots generally speaking Probably a mix of different types of uses, but large not less big uses, but a stronger grid orientation This is the this is the land between the historic district and the mixed-use districts along route 15 and Yeah, it's like price chop price chopper Right, and if you remember the ETC draft there was the sort of plan to sort of what could you do with the edges of price chopper and That would largely fill you know this sort of general urban zone It does this doesn't you know this getting you look at the pattern that's shown here. There are there are Primary streets and secondary streets are sometimes there's even alleys and There are things that actually help to create a stronger sense of connectivity And if you remember the the draft plan talks a lot about the need you know in that in that Neighborhood to create better connections. It was better connections both along 15 But also to the interior of that part of those properties, and that's what this is trying to achieve so we were to use The terminology from this and you know come up with new neighborhoods. Yeah This by saying this neighborhood we're calling a t5 I wouldn't recommend no my Especially dealing with hybrid codes. I strongly suggest sticking with the terms that you're used to yes But maybe redefining them or modifying them a bit to Fit into more of a form-based Code Presentation I'm okay with not saying form-based code I'm just like how do you utilize because obviously you know We're not talking about a linear layout of you know, this is so how would we take this sort of concept? Yeah Laird into and we kind of already have I Mean and then mark said the the Labels at the top are what we're suggesting some version of that that the zoning districts be called Yeah But they have the flavor of this but it reflects that form. Yeah Statements and sort of the descriptions of how things are To match what this what's put in the smart code. Yeah, and yeah, that is important But you know remember we actually you know you may recall when we were putting together the draft master plan You know, we were cognizant of the of the trajectory that this project was going We knew that the purpose of that project was to for phase one was to actually inform this phase So in in determining, you know, and I said listening to the public and hearing what the public had to say and trying to figure out how that might Advance forward we were cognizant of this idea that that you know getting some clarity around the pattern of development Was really important. So, you know, it wasn't done it wasn't done at the odd set But it kind of has a as a Circumstance of getting to the the draft master plan We've actually made some connections between this transect approach and kind of the design and the plan that's been established But I agree with Sharon. We don't need to use these terms In terms of your code because I think that's that would be just confusing It'd be more approachable if you call them what you think you want to call them to define them But it does really put more emphasis on form as Mark said Yeah, and so that's another thing that's really important in this sort of you look at across this transect It's it's you know architecture starts to really dominate as you get into the T4 and T5 Transect and obviously that's the same situation in the master plan You look at the master plan these these districts these neighborhoods It's the architecture that is going to define those the characteristics of those neighborhoods It's not it's not the land outside of the architecture And so if you look at these these patterns of development This is dominated by the structures the forms that actually are placed there and but how they're placed matters if they know They're off their consistent if there's a consistency to them that really does reflect The intention and I think that's one of the things is we you know as we started the master planning process We really heard strongly from the community is that what's been lacking now has been a sort of a layered consistency Applied over portions of the ETC to allow them to develop together instead of onesie-toosie being done and not being connected together Not feeling like they're integrated in some way. This is the integration that you're sort of seeking Okay, so with that in mind You know one of the things we want to talk a little bit about is frontage And so at the at the basic level of cities is this is a lot You know the primary street and the secondary street and that is very important concept in In achieving the higher densities is that recognizing that all streets aren't the same and we'll actually have a whole discussion about me Get to the street discussion About different street types But there are primary streets and secondary streets and you have you know a lot that's there And you have obviously you've got the lot line itself and you've got the frontage line So in this case, this is a corner lot. That's actually got frontage on a primary street and a secondary street And you also have the facades now. These are important because As you saw in the in the master plan one of the things we talk about is the fact that these It's not just it's not just the spatial relationship with the width the lot or Or the the position of the structure as it relates to setbacks. It's also what do you do? architecturally to these sides of the building that relate to these streets So there's a distinction that's made in form-based code between the facade of a structure. These are the outward-facing Elevations of a building as they relate to the public spaces that are outside of it versus the traditional elevation which is number four which is basically the the sides the building that point to each other and This is a different. This is something that you don't regulate that strongly Right now, although it's not new under your regulations even under your definition of facade Right, you have a definition of a side and in a very limited sense under the mixed-use mixed-use development commercial district again that really tight red zone you do actually Define setbacks differently on Main Street and other streets as defined in the former master plan So this takes out a little bit or one step further one step further and you'll see as we get into the building discussion and later That will matter because you know what you actually want to see happen for these buildings as they relate to these different frontages is Is also got to be reflected in the forms that you allow to have happen Well In terms of the actual design yeah, and and you guys correct me if I'm wrong because I just looked some of this stuff up today But the current regulations. I mean they're they're pretty conventional and they did find a Facade the front facade along any public street They don't there is the only distinction between the type of street is in that one district otherwise You know any streets consider a primary street There's no differentiation at that level and there's again. There's not a lot of Discussion about how that area that front yard area and the front building is is treated Except for that you should have your entrances facing the street that is in your regs now, but But those are those are the kinds of considerations we get into this that will be really important is that you know Defining what does it mean to actually have a front setback a frontage on a primary street? That's really critical It's not just again It's not just this the dimensional parts that are important But it's also about what you actually allow or disallow and then I'll get in that in a second about the different types of frontages that exist the other thing I want to make sure we really don't forget is that Again to a chair and point there's a lot. There's a lot already in your existing code That sort of deals with these sort of dimensional and relationship issues, but one of the things I think that would be strengthened by Adopting as we move through adopting a more hybrid code would be Defining for it primary street and secondary street more strongly so that there is a distinction between That and that that distinction is important because you only have so much real again When you start to require different things to happen on a primary street You know the building needs to relate to the street So it may need to put in an outdoor plaza so that it it feels like it's connected street It's important from the developer's perspective to know where those poor poor primary streets are so that they can allocate the resources to Do that if it's not clear and they're expected to put you know Plauses everywhere you're gonna get a lot of pushback So and it also comes back to achieving sort of your desired Outcome you know you probably want to define again at least the views mixed center south as a as an example Or Southeast Northwest we'll talk about that more But if you use the mixed use center as example if if you know there are some you know there are some there are some streets in there that would be primary and You want to make sure that those have a distinctive character and that the buildings relate to those very strongly So that there's a sense of place and organization But there are also some side streets or some probably some new streets that could be created We've explored that the master plan. They don't need to have the same level of Accommodation there needs to be some minimum accommodation this year and said they should relate to the street But it may not be exactly the same as you have on a primary street So that distinction between a primary and a secondary eye in my opinion is really important Do that by naming names You can do that by naming names, but we'll get as we get into the streets You also can define specific types of streets street types that certain time certain types of streets actually are going to be primary That's the way they are They vary by width they also vary by you know the types of Use what what public accommodations are provided on them all sorts of factors? But yes, you do we need to we need to get to a point where we can be very clearly articulating What we think where we think a primary street should be and where a public street should be I mean a secondary street That is that if you have a street that's primary for most of it, but then maybe goes behind a building and Yeah So you don't have to be tied to that one name. It's about the dimensions in the street. Yeah, right So this is a really again This is a this is where again that all these things interrelate But I think just if we focus just on frontage for a second what we want to make sure was we we understand that the demands of frontage are dimensional and then they are also Architectural eventually there's relationships there. Oh, did you request late? You've been here you've been on this process for a long long time So this would be this would include the land on if you have the plan and here somewhere Probably not. I get you're familiar enough. I think with that Essex town center is in the mix you south and then it's the land across route 15 Yep, which is mixed use north and both areas would be Yes mixed use Northwest So one of the concepts within form-based code that I think is and this is in the smart code You can look at it more detail. I just grabbed an excerpt of it, which I thought was helpful But this idea of public and private frontages So in this plan in this graphic and this is a graphic from the ETC plan So that's very there's very a lot of consistency and I'm going to ignore the differences of the buildings just for a second But just in general is showing is a cross-section From the building to the street this line right here right here through is the is the public right is the right-of-way line That's the property line. So on this side of that line is public on this side of that line is private And what you see here and obviously these these relate to those transects they're talking about Is that there's obviously this they're all shown at the exact same? Size but what's happening here is that it this is relation to setback. So there's a Reduction or to increase in the setback off of on this These districts and you get to the more dense districts. There's a lot less But the most important thing in all of the districts these structures relate to it somehow There's not a complete detachment between the building and the structure of the use and the street the public street Now what's happening on the street could be very different. I mean, this is showing actually a sidewalk with a tree That's in the public realm. It could be a situation where there's You know, they may not even be a sidewalk in some cases. That's not ideal, but that's possible But as you get into the more dense district what you start to see is is there? improvements within the frontage private sector improvements on the lot that's being developed that Enhance the connectivity of that structure to the street. So in this case, you've got a little point You know that what outdoor plaza a walkway? This is a little more detailed plaza This is a forecourt which brings the plaza in towards the building So all of these buildings are relating in some way all these structures relating in some way to the Street Is what's out front? I mean you're showing all this kind of nice green space Yes, but there are a lot of places where you're talking that what's out front is parking Yes, and so does that mean that people will be grandfathered But the new stuff the parking will go in the back So you have this nice street thing in you're absolutely right in an infill We're gonna get a lot of the infill that we're gonna see is there is right out parking out front And unless that lot redevelops there's not much we can do about that. That's the way it is today However, if you guys develop, you know, if you go adopt a code that says parking must be on the side of the rear and obviously There's language that's already supportive of that today But if you adopt that with much more clarity around that then when that lot redevelops the developers going to be You know read the developers architects are going to have to adjust the plan to achieve that in a front yard Let's put it this way parking within the front yard frontage should not be encouraged Yeah, I mean just in general I mean that's just in some cases not even in the side yard in some cases not even the side So you're right though to bring up parking because that affects the whole pattern of development So we need to also look at parking standards in relation to all of this Yeah One other thing I thought was very you know very important to to to mention is again as you see again the patterns vary by The relationship the frontage relationship vary by by transect So if you think about again, these are surrogates for the districts. We've got it's not a one-size-fits-all frontage relationship that the relationships for frontage within the Rural resident a residential recreation district should be different than within the mixed-use north district for example One thing is really important again This is a you know again the big big sea change as it as it relates to I think Essex is Build out is is that you are starting to define with much more clarity what you expect the private land Response to frontage to be That's a big dip, you know, that's that's not just you have to provide us 50 feet And then you can do what you want. It's you need to provide us, you know 15 feet But within that 15 feet we expect some things to have this building relate to the public street That's a really big Swing that's something you don't you know that again There's some some elements of that existing within the code But this would be taking that to kind of the next level it also raises a question and there's already ongoing discussions You know with Dennis and stuff about public streets Yeah, what is a public street and how much of that infrastructure is actually truly going to be public in town supported? Versus the responsibility of the developer right so it depends on how the streets are defined and where that right of way Okay, and that's this is actually indicative of that the other the other consequence This is exactly here It's talking about is is that there are things that have it in the public right of way in the public realm This is the public realm on this side of that line That also have streetscape function. So I'll give you an example right now We're doing the streetscape design work in Burlington for the Great Streets project, which is in bank and pearl and me Cherry and all this late all the streets around the new City Place Burlington project city place Burlington is responsible for this and Some of this but mostly this right so they're responsible for making that building relate to the streets It's on the city is responsible. I tiff money. They're using to do this improvements But the they have to fit they have to match up So one of the big I'd say challenges with form-based code But one of the big things and we've talked about this and didn't insurance right Dennis has sort of been thinking about this Is that if you're going to start to define primary streets and you're going to start to define? Designs that make achieve the objectives you want to have for those streets some of the public part of this has to be worked out To it's not all on the developer to sort of respond They can't they can't respond to a street that doesn't exist in the form that it should be existing at so there is a there is an Interplay that has to go on that you know now in some cases developers do pay for Some of the improvements in the public realm and that's that's certainly a possibility in some cases But in some cases it's a shared responsibility some communities It's a shared responsibility where some infrastructure is put in and the developer pays for some of those improvements that go along with So just something to be thinking about as we as we get through as we continue this process is that And that's why I think it is important to look at the both the public and the private side of this Is because Essex needs to know what it's willing to commit to some of these types of improvements if you're not willing to commit as we get into the street types to some some streetscape accommodation for pedestrians or Enhancements related to those sorts of things Then we need to make sure we have the language right to make sure the developers know what they're on the hook for So that they can they can provide their contribution, but that has consequences, obviously You want to add anything about that? Let's imagine a building here, okay, well, let's not worry about that It's really faint We'll skip that one. We can skip them. It's in the past. Okay Think we touched up on on that anyway Setbacks so again, nothing Shocking about this graphic front yard setback Side yard setback rear setbacks what one of the things that is obviously in a quarter lot This is a quarter lot. So you see it's got two front yard setbacks. They're defining. This is a front yard setback Again back to the idea that this is a facade. That's a facade These buildings need to run this stroke this building needs to relate to the street somehow One of the things again as we look at the sort of the pattern that that form-based code might suggest for Essex is the idea that You know these setbacks relate to different things so again these front yard setbacks relate to public realm Issues out the the public at large the rear yards can relate to things like alleys or different street types They don't I necessarily have a large degree of public accommodation like path Common land that kind of thing these side setbacks are where buildings relate to other buildings And so one of the things that we'll have to work with you guys on is is Recognizing that again as if there's a pressure to reduce the side yard setbacks to make buildings get a little bit closer Again, there are consequences that there are fire code that has to be maintained. So there are limitations Potentially we make this with commercial structures That let that would preclude us to getting as close together as you might want without having designed them to be closer together And this is what we're dealing with existing pattern of a development already present some buildings Are not going to be designed to allow us to get too much closer to them. So that's a that's a consideration The diagram depicts what's a very conventional Suburban development pattern Especially with regard to side setbacks that everybody is isolated on a lot and has their yard area that surrounds it But you know as mark noted when you get into the t4 t5 areas It's typically those side setbacks that get much smaller or disappear completely because you're talking about different forms of buildings You know larger mixed-use commercial buildings Row houses or town houses that you know butt up against each other Just to achieve the densities that you want in those areas. It's typically the side setbacks that go away These are the ones that actually yeah reduce Significantly and if you look again, I think about the different neighborhoods the ATC and in terms of the mixed-use north mixed-use south This is where the probably the most but especially mixed-use north mixed-use north is basically Greenfield development There's virtually nothing there So there's a really good opportunity to set fairly small side yard setbacks in that district because We're not relating to other things that are there for the presumably there's not much there to work with to work around I should say Yes, right and firewalls firewalls and all sorts of work. Yeah, fortunately You already have a ladder truck because that's the accessing the building is also an issue at that point The good news though from a developer's perspective I think they one of the things that you know if you look at if you look again when they when they understand this and can work Through this is that this is giving them back real estate. I mean right now side yard setbacks for the most part is not You know it's wasted space especially when you get the forms as we talk about later But you know certain types of housing forms that side yard setback is not very functional If you have a big side yard setback doesn't make a lot of sense so, you know one of the things I think one of the Carrots and sticks issues is that yeah, you may be requiring a little more Presence on a primary street from a frontage perspective But you're you're reducing the side yard setback significantly allowing them to build these buildings out Closer to the side to the side yard giving them some opportunity to sell that real estate It also though we'll get to this in another meeting I think but when you take away yard way areas especially for residential It makes those common parks or civic space is that much more important right so that you still have public space But it's in a different form right so you have a playground down the street If you can't play in your side yard or backyard You've got a place you can walk to and that's one of the big That's one of the big things as you sort of walk through all this is that as we as we try to densify Certain parts the ETC, you know some of those are the vestigial Legacy stuff of like we want these nice generous setbacks to keep people away from each other and allow this green space to sort of permeate through You know the pattern development that actually becomes that becomes self-defeating it actually doesn't it's it actually undermines the ability to Achieve the pattern that you actually really want to try to achieve because you know We don't want to get as we you know We don't want large side yard setbacks that don't provide any valuable Contribution to the overall pattern whereas a park if you took out this whole lot made a park out of it and all those buildings related to it That would be a more functional open space Sure. Yeah. Yeah, and so again that could be that that could be requirement in the front yard You know, I mean if the Plaza for example is a is a potentially good open space use in a more dense Neighborhood because that's a functional outdoor space It just happens to be paved with benches and that's that you know That's we'll get into that We have a whole meeting set aside for open space because that's important part of this is that is that by doing some of these Dimensional changes and sort of instigating some of these dimensional changes and Sharon pointed out how you looked at open space Previously changes because we don't want this to be we don't want people using like the leftover pieces of these lands as Unfunctional Open space that doesn't actually have any value to people and that's the big thing as you go from the more rural transects to the more Urban transects is it becomes not just about what happens in this lot It becomes about how this lot affects everybody around it and it's more of a community You know issue comes more of the blocker the neighborhood. Yeah Right well and typically that's because I mean they they definitely relate as Mark said But your fire codes are usually separate from your zoning codes And part of updating your zoning is to make sure that you can accommodate that in your fire code. Yeah So the things like Yeah, so things like firewalls and sprinklers are typically in the zoning or in the fire code The you know the fact that you don't have the setbacks. You have to have a firewall would be defined in the zoning Kick in and say you've got to have sprinklers in the firewall there So the you know the again This is this will be a question as we get further along But you know the question is whether or not you have a a minimum setback or Maximum setback and that's a big difference So, you know the minimum in this case and or a range and a lot of times there are ranges and actually at the end We'll sort of talk about some of those ranges because some Flexibility I think at the end of the day will be very useful because we are gonna be working around Existing stuff. I mean and that's for the foreseeable future. You're gonna have Existing uses that need to be accommodated to so we got to be careful about setting such very prescriptive Setback requirements and frontage requirements that you can start to make it not fit up with other properties And make creates interest and so if you have Everything all the same that it becomes very static and it becomes less interesting Well, and that's I think that's a good example of this is that you know This is the what's the buildings here are not static relating to the street What is what is important though is that these buildings connect in some meaningful way to the street? so providing some flexibility and Flexibility can also conform to the types of stuff will also relate to the types of forms that are allowed right in each of the Is Mark said it's basically defining a range right now. Most of us just define minimums It's defining both the minimum and maximum right right so for example like you know using this a graphic example If this if we were in the mixed-use North District, this would be a mistake Even if you know this would be the outlier now There there is a range because there are existing uses that are set back from the streets in certain range with and the good news is Is when we did the ETC next first phase ETC next we actually flew the entire Area with a drone So we can actually calculate to within about a centimeter the set back current setbacks of buildings from the public So we can we'll be using that information to test as we come back with this, you know, what's the right ranges that might need to be Provided so that they we work and we actually understand that there may still be outliers in that We don't know yet, but it's possible, but it also helps you test the number of non conformities You may be creating right so it's called the calibration process under form-based code Making sure that your dimensions match what you're trying to do and what's out there already So there may still be some not you know some some properties fit for whatever reason don't fit And we'll just have to relate that to the community and see how they can be grandfather. It can be grandfather, right? but more importantly I think in terms of this is that this notion that You know we we are going to want to have a I think a range that sort of allows for some of that variety to be established But in general though the range is on the side yard setback will become less in In the more dense districts so that they can bring things together and that the Even in the rear setbacks, they may be starting to get a little bit less to depending on how things Shake out, but it's this is the area where there's going to be the real I think pressure to To to allow things to come together and the consequence of that as you pointed out are going to be architectural response to that situation This is from the other side to look at this. I'm not sure why these are doing this. Sorry about that They look great on people This was a block diagram from from the Master plan draft master plan. So again, this is the primary streets here and there's a secondary street here And a secondary street there and it just basically trying to show you that it Everything's not exactly there and there's a little bit of variety to this But there is this relationship between The buildings and the buildings have different forms and they relate to these front and side and rear setbacks That's really critical The other thing that the plan introduced and if you imagine a building here was this idea of the build two zones And this is kind of that envelope within which we're talking about that minimum maximum envelope But this is the envelope within which you expect the building to be placed So what's actually happening here is this blue line goes out to the edge of the primary building face, right? It's some some distance. There's a secondary build to zone which actually goes from that public right of way to the porch You can get very you can get very specific if you want to to define Built two lines so that they actually forces buildings to design themselves around those Relationships now. I'm not suggesting that that's necessary. It may not be But you can define exterior spaces that are parts of buildings Yeah, as opposed to interior spaces, right? You can also yeah, and you can deal with a lot of different ways again a build two lines often a maximum setback Right, it's the equivalent of that So if you define a maximum setback you have a build two line currently under your regs You exempt some things from setbacks, you know entry stairs and things So that's one option But as Mark said typically more often you look at that zone the setback range The minimum maximum or however you define it and what's happening in there including what the architectural features? That can go in that area So if you want to encourage or require a much more articulated building You can you can define this these building built two lines to help encourage that to help actually to force it to happen now You know there's I mean there's some there are some four things code examples that have very specific You know every so often you need to need to move the building this far forward to this build line and So forth so on for forth. I think that gets gets very complicated and most of them have Frontage a build out so you have to build you know again if you look at frontage linearly Right now it's defined by your side yard setbacks often But it's you say 70% of that frontage line along the street has to be built out with a building in it Or even 80% or 100% If they're all connected to each other And Well it'd be by lot but each lot that that amount of frontage would have to be built out and again It's often a minimum percentage of frontage. Yes, you don't have big gaps in the building line, right? So it is one of the again We won't know we won't know how far we need to take this until we have the architectural conversation I think but the I think that's the purpose of tonight's means are introduced the idea that there may be some value in establishing is this envelope and and defining the the Architecturally defining the relationship between that envelope and and the forms that go along with it because again We had we did hear in the public process that one of the critiques of the existing build out of the etc Is that the buildings just kind of sit there and there's no articulation There's no rhythm that's established. It's just the face of the building. It's one plane. It's a long continuous plane and That's something that Between the combination of looking at the setbacks defining good build-to limits and then coding you know bringing out forms that actually support those things you can You can steer that in a different direction And I think that's the question that I think the plant commissioners should be thinking about as we go further on is How much do you want to steer that? So mark I'd like to Build in a little bit of a break here. So we've been going about an hour Sure make sure I'll get all completely lose focus and stuff So if you know if you've got a good break point, this is this is this is almost done. Actually, I've got a couple more slides Okay, let's just go. Yeah, probably ten more minutes. Just chat with you. Yeah, great for a little bit before we yeah So let's talk a little bit about a lot coverage. So again, if you look at If you look at the traditional form-based code numbers For different transects These are the minimum lot coverages that are typically anticipated and again ignoring t6 because You know, you're not in New York City But ignore T6 you're still looking at very high lot coverages and this is a very big again This is a big seat change that a lot of communities have a hard time sort of building their minds around because you look at Things like lot covered as the way to make sure development doesn't get so you know out of hand some cases It's a way of controlling The pattern so that it doesn't feel overwhelming and that makes a lot of sense in a lot of places But when you've gone to the point of a defining a district that's meant to be more urban and more dense The lot coverage needs to increase so that it can actually achieve that. That's a really critical relationship What you are gonna see again, these are the eyed optimals what's gonna affect our ability I think in the ETC to get anywhere close to these things are The stormwater management piece so you need space Outside of the structures in a in a dense urban environment. You have stormwater handle for you You have a storm a utility you've captured the stormwater goes down the public street off it goes It's a lot easier to deal with that But when you have to provide on-site stormwater management, which is the case Largely entirely That makes it really hard to get to these higher numbers So I think one of the things we're going to calibrate for Essex is one of the numbers that actually makes sense Relative to you what you can achieve within the ETC and we don't know what those are yet, but My suspicion is they're going to be less and I think I think you're highest right now is a maximum of 70% Yeah, yeah a maximum Yeah, so I you know again, I don't know we haven't come to some consensus yet about about what What minimums we should have but I think it would be useful as we test it to try to get the highest minimums we can get Because that's that is one of the things that again if you look at the bread from a regulation regulatory perspective if somebody comes in with a plan that doesn't meet the minimum lot coverage they that means they are purposefully or willfully underdevelop under developing that lot and Again, I think in certain districts or neighborhoods within the ETC that that may be a real problem because it's fine to imagine Okay, that just happens this one time But if all of a sudden that's consistently happening then you can look back after about a decade and go None of them achieved the density none of them achieved a lot covers That was that was necessary and the whole thing falls apart So I think that's one of those one of these real important dimension dimensional considerations I think needs to be thoughtful and I think the idea of putting a minimum in there that is responsive to The the pressure that we know we're going to have relative to stormwater management, but not so Solo that it doesn't help you advance it So there's a there's a number there that we don't know yet that we'll have to come up with but I think it's going to be It's going to be hard to get to we but we need to get to that And you also currently distinguish between building and lot coverage and as you know a lot of the lot coverage ends up in a Suburban environment being parking lots right when you get into the higher density areas That land becomes a lot more valuable for a building But again, you have to deal with your parking So it means you've got to also in addition to stormwater you have to figure out how to Deal with parking a little differently Is the technology around stormwater management going to change in the future enough Well, I think that it's necessarily technological shift It's whether it's like you know again public investment in developing a stormwater management infrastructure within the ETC No, that's that's possible today. No, it's not You know, it's gonna cost a lot of money to do that There have been there have been improvements for sure I think one of the things that the again the ECT ETC and Paul Larry could speak to this probably more Specifically but one of the things that actually has helped the ETC I mean, obviously look at it makes you south for example It has more of an integrated stormwater management system generally speaking portions of it do anyway So the more that that system can be maintained and preserved to minimize the need for infill to actually develop their own Facilities that's a good thing So I think there is some there are some you have some capacities now without huge public investments to sort of address some of those things but mixed use north for example where there is no infrastructure today You know, I think that's one of the things that you would want to look at as a as that develops Is to make sure that the planning commission You know letting the developers know that the expectations is is that we know you have to put septic or You know that you have to put stormwater management in to accommodate the needs that state has They're really important objectives to do but you can be smart about it and size Ex you know basins appropriately for the maximum build out now So that you don't you find yourself building three or four ponds when one could have sufficed And that's the that's the hope is that at least you're elevating the discussion That's why saying those minimums at a high enough number will be important because it will Hopefully get them to think about that that I if I have to get to this minimum walk coverage I better be smart about where I put myself in my my strong water pond We require stormwater management plan or you know they have to meet certain standards by the state So a lot of it's stayed handled by the state or prescribed by the state, but Does that answer your question? No, so if either the town or a developer created a large stormwater Somewhere how would they recoup their costs as more development came in? How would they assess new development, you know a new developer coming in they have to pay it buy into that system, right? So there's a few ways you can do it in a large lot like some of the ones you see in the mixties north you could set up a You know master plan that says this is how stormwater on these parcels will be managed Everybody buys I do it. There's an agreement when that plan comes through Alternatively you could have a stormwater impact fee where the town is providing a space where? Stormwater will be managed these properties anybody in this area has to pay in when they develop the property so that it goes So We don't have that mechanism yet Colchester has a stormwater utility But they have a little more comprehensive system and infrastructure for actually doing that so Like I said, it could be an impact fee. It could be a public private partnership So an example that we have right now is like you talked about in the mixties south those ponds along 289 our Owned jointly by the landowners several landowners and the town of essence the town maintains those ponds But it essentially Services those properties so everybody's Has a common interest in it It was set up when it was all when all the initial development was done so The ponds are there and any development that happens there has to Be within the capacity that those ponds could hold No, so the agreement that was set in place was that they'll build upon the town will maintain it There are actually maybe some ongoing maintenance You know buying from the developers, you know, they have to allow the time to do The maintenance work and let them on site and maybe they pay for occasional clean outs Town as most of it But it does bring up the it does bring up the I guess the most important part of that is that Get into back to the calibration process. We need to come up with some Scenarios that help us understand what's possible within the ETC and again and recognizing that over time those may you might change it You know, I can South Burlington has done this from under utility Gold tessers done a storm water to the building from has a storm water utility. So it is that it's the thing now it's a thing people are doing it and The value of it though I think that again not to get down that rabbit hole But the value of those those types of organizational structures is that they do make it possible for developers to achieve higher densities because that issue is now looked at it as not a lot by lot by lot issue It's looked at as a neighborhood community issue much like the decision to send, you know, to find the sewer core Provide water an area. It's exactly the same thing It would really make it hard for them not to yeah, I mean that would be like, you know They would be they would be they would be finding themselves Unable to develop their lot unless they start talking to their neighbors to figure out where they can put their shared storm water system So that might be a good thing But I think during the right, you know, the the other thing to look at is is is you know All of this information is already provided to the planning commission at the time of development anyway It's the lens you're looking at it through that I think become will become really important as we get into the the regs It's like, you know asking that at that sketch plan reviews Question, you know and the staff is looking at this too It's like what's the plan for building out the storm water in the next 10 years or 20 years? How are you going to deal with that? Where does it go? And if they if they don't have a good answer to that It's a that's a flag on the plank in my mind because that's what you want. You know, there should be a good Understanding of where they're going to go with that so that you can understand whether or not that's a limiting factor for them to achieve the Potential you want to have What's that It could yeah, yeah, I mean much like you know, there's already it's already going on I mean you aren't mean that the mix you south is a good example of that I'm not saying that's the exact model that needs to happen everywhere, but this idea of of a Public-private solution in the in the absence of developing a district and going through the complexities of that which is a lot But the public right, you know mixed use north a good example That might be a area where the community says, okay developer If you can allocate the leap the resource land resources for the to accommodate stormwater to maximize the build-up to achieve a 70% Minimum lot coverage on that on those properties. We will town of Essex will Maintain the pond and you know provide some infrastructure for that or whatever it is. That's that's that's the public-private relationship Services Yeah, it does yeah Yeah, I mean even even like I said even the example of Burlington City Place I mean the there is permeable pavers on the in the public realm and in the private frontage as well to minimize the Costs of the stormwater So yes, yeah, but at the end of the day, I mean, you know you can Yeah, you got a 14-story building that's got a huge roof. It's got to go somewhere So yeah, and that's and that's why in a stormwater just district or utility The more that building can reduce the amount of water that's actually hitting the system the less they have to pay So there's a benefit to them to find green infrastructure to limit the the outflow of stormwater So cap room roof water capture Recirculation BIOS detention all, you know stormwater detention basins all that kind of stuff goes into it because they have you don't have again Without the in the absence of actually having a utility that that charges folks for those things. It's hard to get somebody to do that It I mean really there. What's the incentive? It's a moral incentive, but that's a that's never a good thing to bank on so I think it's just something to be thinking about So this is probably a good time to take a break. We have in one more slide to do and I'll do it when we get back Okay, let's take five ten minutes and just get up stretch and figure a little bit Sharon To remember today's my real estate commission day. I was in Okay, nice break. Thank you Okay, you got a nice life for us. Yes, so I think this was in the packet So obviously I don't think you can read it Yeah, yeah, that'd be a lot bigger. Maybe we can zoom up on this thing I'm right. There you go. Let's start at the top. So what this is attempting to do is Now going back to sort of why why we're here tonight a couple things We wanted to sort of make sure and Dennis made a mention this and we'll try to do as we have these meetings make sure you understand what we're asking you to be thinking about and Get out of the meetings and so that we can you know keep building this Building this understanding with the planning commission so that when we do come back with some very detailed Proposals you have the foundation on which to build it. So that's really one of the big things we wanted to get to today was this idea or introduced this idea of We're going to be looking at in terms recommendations for zoning We're going to be looking at things that will start to change what you currently have for setbacks They're going to like I said with the side yard setbacks are going to be probably less than you're seen elsewhere That's important to recognize that the front yard setbacks are going to be you know Variable, but they're going to start to introduce other elements in terms of frontage requirements that will Be different than what you've seen at least more broadly in the community you're going to act we want you to be thinking about that that The the notion of the primary street and the secondary street and the fact that we wanted to start to define those things And when we get to the street discussion at some point in the future We'll be talking about those in more detail. So there's a lot of tonight is it's kind of a primer on The idea that we're going to co-op a lot of what you have right now in terms of your regulatory structure, but it's going to be The frame of reference is going to change a little bit so that it can start to bring in The concept of building forms and give the building forms something to relate to that's really kind of a key thing What this table is doing is it's starting to now take these neighbors these ETC neighborhoods and Relate them back to the transects that we talked about as well as what those minute what if you get if you just sort of adopt The the form-based code as it existed what what frontage types would apply those public and private frontage types what types of Trying to go right, but I must Yeah What kind of minimum lot coverage would be necessary and What kind of setbacks would you if you would the range of setbacks for the for the for the uses within that district? so this is the mixed-use north for example and This is the the public and private Frontage types would apply so that goes back to the idea that in in that district there is going to need to be an emphasis on on Some public realm improvements probably to make it actually work. You need to have street types that actually Let people walk along them and did that a minimum You would need to have some public accommodations within those within the public frontage But you also have private land response the developer whoever builds a building in those in that district should not just Put the building there and put a park in front or put a you know Just nothing that relates to the build the building to the street So that's why those two frontage types are applicable there We think then the in terms of setbacks of the primary setback you see there the range is like three to 12 feet This is again This is not necessarily the recommendation for you guys But this is what if we just to try apply the smart code has existed. That's an example out of the model Yeah, out of the model so two to 12 feet is the minimum Is the maximum setback for the primary front so that's a pretty Tight in that regard because this is again, that's a very urban approach You don't want vast swaths of real estate between you and the building To maybe a little push in it can be Yep certain forms may have certain requirements for a frontage. Yeah, if you're looking for enclosure or things like that, you know, there are Yes Avoiding the canyon effect walking down the street. Yeah, you can set ratios right in terms of building height in relation to the Wits between the facade. What's probably the most thing to sort of hone in on those is you can look at that front Frontage requirement and and ask yourself what your current front-back requirements are I mean, that's the difference, right? buildings in form-based code are Are meant to be Part of the public realm. They're meant they're meant to be related to it. Not Yeah, they have to define it So that's why that's why there is this desire within traditional form-based code to make sure the buildings aren't Setback so far now that there are exceptions Civic uses for example almost always have exceptions because courthouses are always placed at some distance South Brognton's got form-based code. It's new library is going to be in the street practically. I mean Literally like like books to the people. Yes, literally the drive-through is going to be right there No, but it's I mean, it's literally going to be on the street. They're they're like 10 feet I think is the distance is minimum. So It's on Market Street Well that new window I guess poetry, but I think again To get the planning commission thinking about this so that you're primed so when we get back with some suggestions That's going to be one of the key ones is this idea that the front-year at setbacks are going to be Highter in some of these districts because less in some of these districts because we want to try to get that building to relate to people yeah again right now the setback front setback in the Highest density district is 36 feet from the travel way Yeah, so that's and if you actually look at what's happened in the ETC, that's Part of the challenge is that that that's a large area. It doesn't it becomes very unfunctional There's what do you do in that? You know, no one's gonna do anything constructive That's another reason we can make them make them less because if you are gonna require somebody a developer to do something with that space 30 feet of plazas a lot of money Ten feet, you know, that's okay. I can swing that so I think it's really important to recognize That's one of the reasons why it's that's one reason why that the form-based codes are pushes in that direction It might be Well again that then that's a question that we saw about where do you diff where is the public realm start and stop if That all that's happening within the public right of way then no And then again that private frontage is actually within the private land. It's not in the public realm So if there is no public accommodations Along the street that may be a thing to think about we can start to back, you know, you want the sidewalk You know, you want the connectivity? I Think that might be the case. You need to go back and look at it how that was defined Yeah, it may also not have been the case. I think one, you know, again one of the things that that code is it's been evolving I mean, there's been a You know as the separation of uses Is been a big a big part of it. That's been they wanted some, you know, good fences make good neighbors You know good distance makes good neighbors Right But one of the challenges I think is that again when you when you go have a community That's evolving from a very lower density environment to a lot more higher density environment There is a lag that goes on the code doesn't necessarily reflect all of those Things that need to happen to make the buildings more Late to the street, you know, like they mean that same setback I have to pull up the code, but it's probably not much different in the less dense districts. I mean, huh? Four feet difference. Yeah, there's a huge swing. Yeah four feet So that's my point it didn't it didn't it hasn't adjusted so to speak Side setback on this example again exam zero to 24 now one of the reasons again, these are maximum setbacks Well, I think one of the reasons there's a wide range and that may be very indicative of where we end up having to go it's because of those unknowns about The ability to get to get adjacency to existing uses when there's not been the fire Accommodate fire protection accommodation for so if if we are again if you look at the Much of the ETC we know those buildings aren't designed to have other buildings put right next to them They could be retrofit. There is ways to do that. It's not impossible to put a firewall in between Buildings, but I think that's one thing we'll think about is the range that needs to be accommodating there and then The rear setback is a minimum of three now that's you see they flip it there So a minimum of three, but it can be more So you could you could allow a building to get with a virtually no rear yard setback If it if it's common land that might be fine or if it's a if it's an alley that might be fine You don't need to have a large backyard and that's that's again. That's the sea change going from a sort of a suburban Mentality to a more urban and then tell you know backyards in the city don't exist There's a reason they don't think they don't need them. There's not they're not providing any function They were called English gardens, right? They were not extensive, but they were there and the kids could play in them and it To say they don't exist in this. Yeah, this is private. That's private. Okay. Yeah And you go to Manhattan. They don't exist at all. Yeah, I know So it's in this description we have like a zero So on the side set back zero set back. Would that be Like a single building that crosses the lot lines No, there'd be one building that's constructed and another building that's touching it. It's like a row house like a row house Or boring to tertiary. Yeah Tertiary marketplace you go out tertiary those there's separate lots There's a lot of separate lots that define tertiary and those are those buildings have zero lot line That's actually how downtowns are often traditionally built. Yeah It does mean that sometimes you need especially for new stuff You need some kind of maintenance easements and things so that you can actually access it from the other lot, but yeah But this you know again, I'm sorry. I'm used to so again as you go down if we go down to The mixed use of the Neighborhood commercial you see that you lock the lock coverage is less and again that the range there is fairly wide still but Again reflective of the fact that we don't have we are probably not going to have The same level density and we're going to have a lot more space to work with it But it's still important even within that district So again if you look at the neighborhood transition they were commercial district within the etc Which is that route 15 and those environments. It's really going to be important to find I think Acceptable private frontage requirements and again They probably will not be as rigorous as you might need in the in the more mixed-use districts You know require plazas per se, but still some level of how does this building relate to the street? How does this cottage relate to the common space that's around it well in front of John 15 might be a whole Specific thing. Yeah, given the green ways and stuff right Yes, that's right in the green ways. So that's actually another really important piece We've got we got the green way that's established the 75 feet on on 15 It's established basically to the end of the mixed-use South district The question will be How do we deal with that as we go into the neighborhood commercial is that right now it disappears doesn't exist do we Want to encourage development pattern that sort of respects that or do we want to continue to have that green way Existing that's an unanswered question But that's a question that we were gonna have to talk with you guys about as we get into that when we get to the streetscape the street frontage requirements The street typologies, excuse me that will be something we can think about. What is what does route 15 look like? Yes 75 feet's a lot for that Yeah, yeah So anyway getting back to this so again you look at that you look at the distilled from 2 to 12 to 6 to 18 feet maximum so again the the the front yard setbacks are gonna get bigger And then as we go keep going down I'm just going to scroll down here and you guys have this but as you get to the the more sort of rural forms 24 feet 40 feet in the most you know in the in the lowest density environments That's probably high In that one. Yeah Yeah Yeah, that's really high Probably higher than we would recommend but that's that's again, that's the Standard these are the model at the template model But you know, but they are they are gonna be higher and they're gonna be higher than in the other districts because that's you want Oh, those buildings are gonna be primarily single-family homes, you know set aside from other other structures and They probably will be set aside and actually if you think about where the where that land is within the ETC that were that residential Recreation we talked about it's really constrained anyway, so it probably will have effectively have very large Setbacks anyway because they're just not gonna be on one side or the other I just worry that somebody might only be able to put a building in below back Yeah Yeah, I agree with that I agree so Yeah, yeah, you know that they I think the issue sort of keep going down in the in the Transact and and then the districts we've got to work with you know these become You know, you're the pattern of buildings the relation buildings are so far apart And so isolated from each other that there is not this sense the pattern doesn't become self-evident You don't see it but when the building started to get close together That's where the pattern becomes really obvious and evidence so you need to make sure you have the requirements that push that direction So I think that's again, you obviously have this I think you guys can take a look at it At your at your next meeting and discuss it if you want but we'd love to have your feedback on what you think You know those ranges how the ranges feel relative to These different neighborhoods that we've been describing So these numbers are not a recommendation. This is the model right. Yeah, this is not our recommendation I think it'd be good you to look at think about those and again. This is based on a national kind of average It's not anything that's even Vermont We will we will provide some recommendations when we get to that point of the process We're not there yet, but when we get to that point We'll actually come back and say this is what we're going to suggest for each of these districts But what I think you should be thinking about is that does the general Relationships between these districts make sense to you did we capture From your reading of the the draft master plan and your understanding of the project and the process is does this To the tenants of these just these transects kind of fit your impressions of what those districts should be And I think the supportive material we gave you and give you some some help with that That's the kind of thing I think that the end of the day would really be helpful for the planning commission to think about You know and part of the process we're going through is an audit of your current regulations So that's actually going to be looking at your current setbacks in those areas under your regs to see if they still make sense In a very basic way or if they need to be tweaked That's an important point. So the degree week to the degree we can reuse or co-opt your existing regulations I think that's our charge is to try to do that as much as possible so that you're not Reinventing things that already exist Why do it right but But if you kind of have to work it from to both directions It's kind of nice to know what you want to to achieve But you sort of really want to aspire to what you have to work from and then that will help us inform What the tweaks need to be so we're kind of working a little bit independently with that So that's why we're not starting with the housekeeping stuff because it's sort of the audit because it's good to know what you want first We'll audit it and then say what do we need to do to make that you know to take advantage of that Existing if we can if we can we'll have to figure out a new code that goes into it For me conceptually having this sort of a graphical presentation The number is less significant. I get more that it's it's higher here lower here. Yeah, that's the big take away graphical I mean At the end of the day, we've got to set the expectation that we are looking to make some changes And this is a good representation of the types of changes that we're trying to find ways to to to bring in It's not that everything is going to be at 80 percent It's not that everything is going to be at 40 percent But there is going to be a range and it may and it makes sense as to why it's 80 here 40 here And I think that's the piece that's Been missing in some of the development that we've done in in the town set current town center is Why does it why do you want it to go higher? I don't want higher buildings or I don't want this I need this I need that This this starts to put some framework around it. So I mean, I I Don't know enough about this to say is are the numbers good, but I don't feel we're at that point I feel it's really just no, we're not. It's is this the right Approachers, it's the right framework that we're trying to create and that's a really important point that I think is that you know It's my brother. I'm sorry Dustin. It's okay. He's really being called that his whole life. Yeah, sorry That's really kind of I think the key point though is that we're trying to get you guys teed up in terms of The foundational understanding of this parts and pieces of this process so that when we do come back with Here's the range of the lot coverage. We're recommending for mixed juice north or Fix your stuff whatever that you understand it in context with the overall You know project that's really the foundation thing and that's why we're kind of breaking this process up into these different pieces So we're talking about today's dimensional elements and next time. We're gonna be talking about Whatever Activity criteria. Yeah, so we're breaking all the pieces up into some some chunks So that you at the when you when you finally get the drafts of these things to look at you can kind of go back to the Sort of foundation so go, okay I get why that's that district is like this and this district's like that Etc. Etc. That's you have another whole meeting just on this table Oh, we're gonna be we're gonna have a meeting on all of these That would mean the meetings these are informational meetings going for the now and there are some again I'm hoping you guys accept as a as a premise again back to the what we did last time with the mix with the District boundaries is the fact that you know we want to establish frontage requirements within the districts that relate those The buildings within those districts to the intention of the master plan. That's a you know, that's an ask No, are we good? Are we good there? Should we pursue that? But there is not you know, it's it's it's really important we're gonna have it We're gonna have a whole set of things that you're gonna look at in detail as we get to the later phases this process This is the yeah, this is the leader phases should have the review that you've done of the existing regs It should have yes that actually means something. Yeah the the calibration discussion We talked about it needs to be tested, but we want to make sure we understand we need to make sure you understand what you're gonna see And the context around it so that when you see it It's not just like wow why you're proposing 80% minimum watt coverage. Well, we're doing that because we're trying to achieve something So I'd like to if I take it a few last few questions on this and maybe take a quick look at the bike rack Okay, okay, so we don't lose that and I think it's good to just revisit it So is there any other thoughts comments on tonight's discussion? So with regards that I You made a question like if what we currently call a primary street goes behind the building and doesn't become primary So is that is it maybe is it the primary street? We need to know the function and the design points. Are we looking at you know? Accept that we want to get to describing it These are streets we're talking about that would be helpful We could do an exercise in the mixed-use South area for instance saying alright this stretch of Carmichael Street is a primary street The stretch of Commonwealth is a secondary street for instance. Yep. Yep Yep That would help start framing that and that's actually those are great examples of the we're talking about They have very different character very different function The alley behind Hannaford is a very secondary street. Yeah It's an alley at this point We go to anybody other thoughts questions comments Then Maybe if we can pull up the bike rack Get out of the bottom right corner, you can yeah slide on the bottom right corner to increase Because we're not we're trying not to be a car they're gonna call the you know electric car charging station You Bike rack So this is I don't know if you guys had seen this yet or not We saw an early I think we've seen this the one who's there the same content just put into a spreadsheet Yeah, okay, okay great May a little more succinct. Okay. Yeah, we saw the under the pinnings of this Yes, I didn't know maybe if you had thoughts if you'd seen it if you had thoughts that yeah We're gonna touch on this one this one this one or is this new content We have to revisit Not new content tonight just new as far as is it conceptually something that's not already Comminated in the roadmap that we've you've laid out No, I think this is I mean I think this is a great structure for us to do it I just know I think one of the things we want to do is I think what might be helpful in terms of process is We'll have our kind of working meetings with the planning commission and then we'll have that check-in With staff and I think that's the great time to sort of go with staff to sort of Go through the bike rack to sort of address some of these things or at least give our perspective on those things Because I think it's important to recognize that as much as we're doing Staff is doing things as well on this process and it's really important I think to both the project schedule budget and and actually at the end of the day It's really critical that staff has as much involvement as possible because this is the code They're gonna be you know working with so what I suggest is we do is we take like every third Every third meeting or so and we can we can adjust this as we go if we feel we need to but every few meetings or so Set up a separate meeting. We already in plan on doing this anyway But have that separate meeting with staff walk through the bike rack Give them the perspectives that we've got on some of the outstanding questions. Let them take the Delete on on the resolutions that they think are appropriate and then get back to planning commission Then maybe that can happen in the off meeting so that you guys have and I think that fits because our off meetings We've really tried to like as much as possible to have a repetitive structure to rest these number one Does anybody in the commission or staff or you have questions that have come up about this content over? Right the week or two that were off right to at least float Are the responses from either of you or staff to questions that we had are there? New directions that we want to evaluate do we need another meeting? SSS is I mean it's just really just to make do course corrections Yeah, try to do course corrections and then off meeting and so if staff is willing to help with that I think that would be that would be a great way to facilitate that that way again You have the benefit of like this example the street example It's a great thing like Darren could actually put together some you know that could be a question that goes into the bike rack Yeah, they're gonna put together a quick little Google map version of those and have that discussion at some point and then we'll get the benefit of the we'll get that we'll get the benefit of the Of the information good getting relative to our needs for this project what we want to try to do is get as much Input so that when we come back with a draft that it actually Fits you know it makes sense you guys are like oh I can you've addressed all of the issues we have so we're good So I think that to me the word work great great Any other thoughts questions anybody here many questions on the overview presented tonight Just another name for our parking lot parking lot is focused on cars It's a party way to park issues. Yeah, so there are issues that come out that we don't necessarily address right away So we'll put them aside come back to them later. That's what this is Yes, the e-bike putting it on the shelf we'll take it back later power assist bike I As we're going through these these nights It's really important that we don't lose That we don't go too far outside of scope For what we've framed for these discussions and if we have time great, but let's let's do what we've Scheduled to do first and take these other items and park them aside and follow up or You know as Josh did the last one you took one right off Yep, and some of them will some of them you know again some of these issues are going to take longer to resolve Because we just it's not just like it's you may not be an easy answer to some of them some of them need to go through some process to answer them so for the sake of our Continued sanity I Think I'd like to say that we're done with this for this evening. We'll clean up the rest of our business and Say thank you for that. Thank you. Appreciate it Thanks Next item on the agenda. I believe is It's I don't have an agenda sitting in front of me So I'm going to go with minutes. Ah, thank you. Do you have a motion for the minutes of 1011? Moved by John seconded by Josh does anyone want to offer any any amendments adjustments to the minutes as presented All those in favor of the minutes as presented Hose 5-0 We have other business So The solar project on River Road has had a bit of a bump They identified some rare threatened endangered species within where they were planning to put the solar panels And they're asking to they're trying to that's a barren area Believe it or not, there are now there were or are now rare threatened endangered. I think grasses So they're trying to rearrange some of the solar panels in order to not impact the species So they are going to ask for a setback waiver from the public utilities commission in order to do that They need municipal approval select board Has asked for input from the Planning Commission on whether this is reasonable or not so to give you a sense of what they're asking the previous Setback line where the edge of the solar panels was going to be Previous line was here You set back line will go from 50 feet to 10 feet within the property to the north which is on the element However development has already agreed to a 10-foot setback And the question is any concerns by the Planning Commission the property to the Alenberg property that is Industrial that's within the RPDI. It's undeveloped currently, but could have industrial And the industrial subzone Not that portion so the town portion is further up here This is the edge. This is part of the parcel that is allowed for industrial development currently So from my point of view with given that it's going up against an industrial parcel. I have no concerns with you know with That we're doing a setback That's a close setback Ten feet. It's not a lot of a lot of space Are they gonna have a have to have a travel plane there for maintenance? In that ten feet these are questions we can ask and when it comes down to it. Do we truly have any say? Disability can either agree to it or not it's up to the select board whether they do but they're asking for input from the Planning Commission but questions like you know traveled lane for maintenance or Sorry, what was your question Tom? Is it truly the land on there is not good to be conveyed to town correct? So that would be developed for industrial purposes and theoretically would have a That's chemo's land too correct. No, it's actually set back in this zone The fact that Al is not taking issue with it is probably it What's gonna happen if they want to build a building that's gonna shade the solar panels? Which So this is Site that's coming up against this north of that so it shouldn't shade it So just to give you a sense of where things are This is that property line. This is the parcel that would be allowed for industrial development This is the town on parcel And then your question about what what an actual setback setbacks for the so not knowing how they're going to split up the lots It will look at the rear and the side setback Which would be Either one is 25 feet So anything on the other side would be at least 25 feet away Plus the 10 feet separation from the solar panels the total of 35 feet between structure to structure But the current setback for this where the solar panels are I know they were planned for 50 is a 35 foot So the because it's 25 foot sorry is a 25 foot setback if it were developed for like a regular industrial building That's what it would be because it's the public utilities Commission And it's a renewable generation. That's 50 by default Public utilities Commission is a more restrictive setback than we do But they're asking for a less restrictive setback than we normally would That is a slippery slope I guess I'm okay with it even if they do have to have a Lane there for maintenance. I don't see why that would matter Yeah, is it Separate is it separate landowners? Yes Hector Leclerc still owns that I believe Gonna convey it To Seneca loans, you know, I actually think there might be a power line running along the property there I believe some of the hookups that they're using to connect this project to the grid Right, and I think they're putting in some new poles to sort of connect to the one the other Here so there might be some Here So that was on record is not having any concerns with us, right? He's already signed the agreement Commission's thoughts I'm the only one that doesn't like it You don't like it because of the precedent. Yeah, I mean, you know, we have this and maybe it's okay But we have this tendency that when it's renewable, which I'm all for but we have this tendency to be quick to overlook Our our regs and I know that Utility board have a lot has a lot more to say than we do, but they already have a more restrictive setback of 50 than our 25 And you know if this were a building There's no way we would do we would if they ran into these grasses I'm not sure this group would give a waiver on the setback So maybe the the report back to the select board is that the Commission is of a mixed Representation on this and is Generally no concern over the particular project, but with some concerns of precedent That's that I don't believe that we would support a motion to to back the waiver is that so Will be the Point person for it was you know willing to come in and give a presentation But to what effect I mean the decision is not I don't know The select it sounds like I'm the only one who's against it Which I'm fine if you could say you know if you only one record saying all but one commission member the commission I'm more comfortable given that Al is okay with it I'm just again worried about precedent and feet is in a district that has a 25 foot setback. That's a big So what if they reduce some of the panels is that an option? They're trying to avoid that But that could be an option that if the select board agrees that this is a precedent that set maybe they say 25 feet is the Compromise and reduce some of the panels. I was it was unclear Exactly what impact that would have on the project So that might be some information we can get from The petitioners to say what's the actual you know impact on you? And you know why is this such a problem, right? I mean this is a bit green lanterns in them in the business of making money and selling credit tax crab I mean so they're obviously trying to maximize their use of this property So I get the business side of it. I just again. I don't know that the business side truly is that Relevant to our discussion. It's not relevant to ours, but I know that's what's driving them. Otherwise. They would have said fine We're just not in crouch Probably because they don't know what's there to be residential and all that so They might have this big setback just in case and that's why they're willing to leave it because it's industrial It also depends on the size of the facility They're set back So a smaller facility would actually have a 25 foot setback, but this Scale is 50 foot So maybe if the select board is looking for input from us that maybe the input is as sort of as you mentioned that the PC Discuss this and acknowledge the different components the neighboring landowner was approving it the Area whatever it's it's 25 even there the public who's it public utilities whose public service board public service board has recommended it We recognize all that there's a concern about setting a precedent for dropping the setback to such a significant And leave it at that If you guys are agreeing that was the straw pole was there's a a four-to-one Agreement via straw pole in support of it With recognition of concern about setting precedent on Yeah, I like that because it'd be a little letter. Yeah, and I wouldn't I would not do this as a motion Well, it sounds like this is just us recommending the cycle. It's like we're just going to make the ultimate call Select board is the ultimate decision, which again is just an advisory to the public service board The ultimate decision right which they're going to look at this and they're going to go that's nice. Okay So good talk There is actually something in state in the law that says they can only provide this Change setback if everybody agrees to it, but they made a sign. Oh, so let's for that for the sake of having this More or less on record. Let's do a straw pole and just indicate if we're in support of the Giving the the feedback to the select board in the manner that we sort of discussed john Tom I'm fine with it with the Rider that we don't want to set a precedent for any old industrial project Josh ditto for myself. I'm going to stick with staying though. Okay That gives you some straw pole results to to reflect report back to the select board good anything else for business Then I would take a motion to adjourn Right those two all those are favor. I Motion carries four one david staying the rest of us are leaving. Thank you 832 For the bike practice to make sure