 Hello everyone, this is Ariel from Line Tokyo office. Today we are honored to be hosting Taiwan digital minister Audrey Chan through the interview. Audrey is well known as a genius programmer as well as a charismatic politician to push Taiwan front to the next level. Audrey, welcome to the interview. Hi, good local time everyone. Prior to this interview, I have conducted a survey from Liners and to know what they are interested in about the topics. And I think we will talk about different important topics today. So many Liners are very interested in how Taiwanese government dealing with the COVID-19 situations. So from the data till July 29th, there were more than 16,000 confirmed cases globally and more than 721,000 people lost their lives by this disease. And we see many countries still see this disease as a matter of threat even after so many months. But on the other hand, for a Taiwan situation, there are zero confirmed indigenous cases for a continuous 108 days. This data is by July 29th. And there's a Japanese survey published on July 22nd shows that Taiwan is the best out of 49 countries. And so my questions can't follow. Like what were the three most critical factors using lead to Taiwan's success? And also as our audience are from different countries and they might not be familiar with Taiwanese culture and majors, could you also share us about the detailed story, how you developed about the mass infant resistant and also how the national health insurance card work, ETC? Okay. Gladly. So can you see the screen that I'm sharing? Would you like to put it into the show? Excellent. Okay. So, yeah, I'm happy to share the Taiwan social innovation that was the bedrock of our counter COVID protocol. The idea is that we fight a pandemic with no lockdown and infodemic, that's to say disinformation and panic buying and so on, and with no takedown. And the three most important pillars are fast, fair and fun, respectively. So fast means not only that we get information to people quickly, but also the people can very quickly surface new intelligence that's called collective intelligence from the general public into the counter pandemic efforts. Indeed, in the very beginning, when many economies only countered the coronavirus begin this year, we started last year. Last December, when Dr. Lee went down, the PRC whistleblower posted on their social media that there are seven new SARS cases. He would get eventually punishments, harmonizing his whistleblowing from his local police institution, but at the same time, the Taiwan equivalent of reddit, the PTT board, has somewhat reposting that message. And it immediately get upvoted because it contains sufficient medical details to warrant the attention paid to it. And so the very same day, our health officials basically said, okay, we need to start health inspection to all the people flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan. And that is the very beginning of our counter coronavirus strategy, which is at least 10 days before all the other, like, World Health Organization and other countries. And so this says to me two things. First, that we can very quickly gather the collective intelligence because the civil society trusts the government enough about the freedom of speech. Indeed, according to the civics monitor, Taiwan is the only society in a whole of Asia and one of the only two, if you count New Zealand in the Pacific, that has the absolute freedom of speech and this freedom of assembly, the press and so on as any other liberal democratic country. That was the emphasis on keeping an open mind to novel idea from the society. So, as important as our central epidemic command center CCC is, I think the bedrock is this tovery number 1922 that everybody can call and get their ideas escalated into amplified into the daily press conference, where they not only answer all the questions from the journalist, but also surface new social innovations. For example, there was one day in April when a young boy whose family called saying that, oh, my boy, he doesn't want to go to school because when you raise your medical mask, you don't get to pick the color. So all he had was pink medical mask. Now the very next day, everybody in the CCC press conference, including Commander Chen Shizhong, started wearing pink medical mask. And even Chen Shizhong even said that his childhood hero was pink panther or something like that. So making sure that people learn about gender mainstreaming, which is a such innovation. And this fast response to trust between the government and the civil society and suddenly the boy become the most hip boy in the class because only he had the color that the heroes wear. And another focus is fairness. Fairness is the idea that everybody need equal access to personal protection equipments. And we started very early on saying that anyone who can innovate to find a better distribution method, a better innovation that helps people to get the mask timely will be rewarded essentially by getting this chance at reverse procurement, meaning that they specify how we should do things and the government just takes their ideas and run with it. And so in all the government websites in Taiwan, everything ends in GOV.tw, just as in other domains. But in Taiwan, there's a bunch of people called G0V or GOV0 that just takes all the website that they don't like and fork the government. Important pronunciation fork, the government. Fork means to take what we had, but taking it to a different direction. And in this new direction, of course, it's all open source means that a copyright is mostly relinquished so that the government can very quickly then take it into account. So I'll join that G0V.tw community at any given time. There's hundreds of people just working on the counter COVID, trying to imagine new ways. For example, for the medical mask distribution, that makes it much more visible and accountable than the system. So this is the first version of the medical mask distribution map. And it's done by Howard Wu or Wu Jiangwei from Tainan City. And at the very beginning, I think it was very early April when we were still rationing the mask, but with no real name purchasing system. The main issue was that people would run to maybe five different convenience stores and they didn't know which convenience stores do have mask in stock and which doesn't. And when the pharmacies start selling the medical mask, exactly the same thing is happening. And so this is why Howard Wu thought there's a lot of people using the platform called Line, you may have heard of it, in the family group to share information such as, oh, I'm here and it's run out of mask. And I'm here, I still have some mask and so on. But Line, with all due respect, is not the best way to organize this information with very limited search and geospatial capabilities. And so Howard Wu thought maybe we can just crowdsource it on a shared map so that everybody can use the same map and pin the availability on the map. And so this is, of course, very useful. And so that is why we need to make sure that everybody has enough desire to get a medical mask, which is pretty much everybody can get so in a fair fashion, making sure that these numbers are accurate. Because if you rely only on people to report, then maybe on some hotspots it will be very close to the real time numbers. But in the less populated areas, maybe you will have numbers that are out of date and which may actually add to the confusion. And so we make sure that we work with the National Health Insurance Agency, the NHIA, which is an insurance single payer system that covers more than 99.99% of not just citizens but also residents. And the idea is that we refresh this information, which is a real time mask stock level every 30 seconds so that people queuing in line can help keeping this system accountable. Like if you're an adult nowadays, if you go to this pharmacy, you can swipe your end Azure iCard every two weeks and collect nine medical masks. And so like with 58 in stock, you would expect that it become like 49 in the next couple of minutes on this shared map. And if people with like eyesight, disabilities and so on, with blindness and so on, there's also chatbots, voice assistants and many other different ways to access the same information. And if you purchase a medical mask and the people queuing after you, after a few minutes refresh and see this number become not 49 but rather like 60, 70 or something, they will call when I do to right there. And so instead of placing the trust on the top official such as Minister Chen Shizhong, this is basically each pharmacist and each person in the queue working together to keep the system honest and keep the system accountable. And making sure that people who show any symptom will then be able to take the medical mask, go to a local clinic knowing that they will get treated fairly without incurring any financial burden. And of course, one of the most popular chatbots called Ji Guan Jia, which is done by the Center for Disease Control in conjunction with HTC, deep queue team with a line bot. And it has an interactive map there that can help the person navigate to the nearby pharmacist that still have a mask in stock. And that's chatbot is really cool. So I think line is pretty good at extending its core functionality with third party applications. And one of those third party application built by the civil society is this dashboard. And this dashboard shows, for example, that when we're ramping up the production from 2 million a day to 20 million a day, now the quota increase like from three per week to nine per two weeks, and you actually see this growing very quickly. And this is, as you can see, what people's real time responses like demand and supply and so on. And so based on the real feedback from the pharmacist and also from those independent analysis, we co-create our ordering system with the whole of society changing the dispatch algorithm every week in a very public fashion. And so based on this analysis, for example, we see that only about 80% at most of people have access to this mass rationing system, meaning that there's about 20% of people who have never collected any mask from pharmacies. And also when we did an analysis based on the district, based on the county, we found that these are the science parks like people who work very long hours and they often live by themselves, like not with their family or extended family so that once they went off work, everybody from the pharmacies have already closed doors. And so even though they have their rationing, they cannot actually collect those rationing. So it's obvious that we need to work on the 24 hours operating convenience stores, such as 7-Eleven and Family Mart and High Life and OK Mart. And so these places become what we call the mass collection 2.0, in which case that you can pre-order on an app because these people who work in the science parks and so on, they are very familiar with mobile phone. So asking them to pre-order their mask on a mobile phone, not a problem. And they can then collect it in their nearby convenience store the next week, 24 hours a day. So you can see our premier smiling very happily here. And that's because we start working with convenience stores. And because after that, then we analyze the numbers and there's still remaining like 10% of people who would not use a app or go to a nearby pharmacy. And then there's some focus group studies. And it turns out that there are, for example, migrant workers who are protected by the National Insurance app also, but because they don't have the SIM card to their name, maybe they use a pre-PAY SIM card or so on. So it's not that easy for them to use an app and they don't have the time to queue in line either. Or if people who are very old, like the elderly, who don't live with their children, then of course they would not be able to queue so in such a long queue, such a long time. And so maybe they would not go and collect. So for people who are migrant workers or like very old people, we eventually designed a MAS 3.0, which is you just go to your nearby friendly convenience store using your NHI card, no apps required. And the kiosk will just validate your NHI card and you can just keep going to the same convenience store every other week and then just pay a few dollars and then collect your bi-weekly ration and there's no app installation or map or whatever required and that closes the final gap of the final like 10% of people. So there's a lot of evolution that ensures fairness of all kinds. And finally, I would also like to stress that because this is a stressful time, people do feel anxious. There's a lot of panic buying, a lot of conspiracy theories. And in Taiwan, our counter disinformation strategy that we wrote out way before the pandemic but it's the idea of humor over rumor. And by humor over rumor, I mean that whenever there's rumor that travels on outrage, for example, there was a panic buying of tissue papers. There was a rumor that says, quote, is the same material as facial mask because we're ramping up production of mask. We're going to run out of tissue paper soon, unquote. And so there was panic buying. And we know it's trending because of the fact-checking community's collaboration was lying so people can't long press the disinformation in the lying community and forward it to the Taiwan Fact-Check Center or MicroPen or so on. So we see that this panic buy is trending. And so within a couple of hours, the same premiere you see smiling in the previous slide roast this out on social media and you can see that he shows his bottom wiggling his bottom a little bit and say in very large font that each of us only have one pair of Botox. It's a wordplay because in Mandarin, twin Botox sounds the same as stockpiling twin, right? So there's no need to to twin because each of us only have a pair of twin, right? That's the idea. And so it shows also a very clear table saying that the facial mask are produced using local materials. And the tissues are made out of South American materials and these are different materials. And so there really is no need to panic. And this went absolutely viral. The package itself is a tissue paper package. And so because of this, the R value of this meme is higher than that of a conspiracy theory. And so you can see that if you laugh about it as you just did actually you become vaccinated and the same outrage panic buying message if it gets to you, you will no longer share it, right? Because you're vaccinated with fun. And so finally we found out that like three people who spread the rumor at the first place and they were tissue paper resellers. And anyway, they were persecuted. And so this is not just a single short point in the social media. Every single daily press conference from the CECC gets translated by the spokes dog or zongchai of the Ministry of Health and Welfare. And that translate for example, physical distancing. If you're outdoor, please keep two dogs away. Indoor, please keep three dogs away. There's a very cute dog meme. Remember to cover your mouth and nose when sneezing. Remember to pre-order your mask. And why order your mask? Why wear a mask? Well, the mask protects you from your own dirty and washed hands from touching your face, right? So this is what we call Yanjin Chi Shou Shou, like don't chew on your unwashed hands. It's hard to translate. But anyway, so all of us make sure that our humor or factual humor spreads faster than rumor. And this is how the Taiwanese people still feel calm and collected even during the pandemic. And so if you want to learn more, please feel free to visit. Taiwan can help that us. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for the detailed sharing. I think we could learn a lot from that. I heard from other interviews that for the first time, it's very interesting that you and Howard never met each other before you built the mass inventory system. We've never even video-conferenced. Wow, really? We just typed on the chat channel. Wow, and in two days, right? That's right, that's right. And I think that's because he already has a prototype. All we had to do is to provide him with the timely, like real-time API of the mask in stock. And it's not only him, but also the Ji Guan Jia chatbot, the HTC DeepQ team, and also another person, Fijian Qiang, Jiang Minzong, also from Thailand. They all work independently. Fijian Qiang worked already with water pollution level or air pollution level map. So he already had an interactive map. He just had to change his data source and so on. That's why it's so quick, because people have already prototyped the visualization part. We just made sure that the data pipeline worked. Wow, that's great. Thanks a lot for sharing. And I also want to have your opinions about that. You have a favorite part about everything there's a crack in it. And that's where the light comes in from your speech that I think other countries could learn a lot from that. If other countries would like to take the same measure, what could be done better for the Tiber version? And you could like provide suggestions to them. Well, South Korea already used Fijian Qiang's map a month after our mask availability map online hackathon. And the civic technologies from South Korea managed to convince their government to publish the real-time API of mask availability. So that's great. And I think what works really well is that if the pharmacist which works on the front line and it's the main point of tension, but also of trust have a real-time feedback in Fijian Qiang's map version, which is currently the primary version that people use, there's a feedback form. So that's the pharmacist can type in things that they want other people to know, like a notice that says we're handing out the number plate. So please don't come and collect your mask until we finished issuing out the number plates and that will be in the afternoon and so on. And if there's any confusions in terms of the mask rationing or the size of, for example, the children's mask and so on, the pharmacist will also collect people's innovation, like how best to solve that. Maybe it's with a 3D shaped mask that can fit even adults with small face or things like that. And they can all just respond to it in real time. So this is very important because there's no one size fits all algorithm. The distribution mechanism, the size and so on all needs to be co-created. And once the pharmacist know that if they require a new feature such as they're opening hours or even pressing one key and disappearing from the web map and so on gets listened to. And even like every week we iterate saying their input is taken into account. Then the pharmacists are actually the most innovative bunch because they are in the front lines. There's even a pharmacist that using a card reader in a PC just rolled out a automated dispensation system that people can pay and swipe their energy card and automatically get a token that they can then exchange to medical masks. And then this is really good. And later on, I believe that also inspired the type of city the smart city project management office to work with the vending machine company called Yolvent to do the vending machine like self-service must dispensing like a robotic pharmacy of sorts and inspired by the pharmacist work. And so I think the open innovation is the most important thing. And if there is a crack in everything as there were that's how the life gets in. If you make sure that everybody who innovating and thinks of good idea, have a toll-free number to call, have a feedback form that can escalate to the top of the command chen. Then the commander Chen, Chen Shizhong in Taiwan always have this attitude of saying, oh, you should have told me sooner. Let's learn about this together and so on. So he's not a top-down commander, right? So he's working with people, not just for the people. That is really great. Thank you very much. And I'd like to have another question about like in this crisis, you mentioned about like different parties have different roles and what role should the communication platform or SSS to play in this crisis? And do you have other like expectation to line? Yeah, I think the line was very helpful in helping us to identify the trending panic line, the trending rumors and so on. So this loan press to report this information, I think just like an email vendor would say, you know, a click clear to flag something as spam. That's very useful. And I understand that the CSR team in line Taiwan worked very hard on it because there was nothing like it in other jurisdictions, but once the line CSR Taiwan team builds that I understand like people from the Jurong Gong University in Thailand really wanted to learn that and they even copy the co-fact innovation from graph zero into the Thai version and working with the line in Thailand which is also a very popular messaging tool. So I think just work closely with civic technologists and making sure that the platform itself stays open to new innovations such as co-facts or in the Taiwan the trend micro, right? Antivirus company has this doctor message that detects not only rumors disinformation but also a scams like video scams and picture scams and so on. And that's also very helpful. And so yeah, if line works closely with the civic technologists in the open like making sure that people who have a better idea is not hindered by the platform then I think that is really good social responsibility. Thank you very much. I think the word closely will be the key to future. And there's another question about the COVID-19 as well. So now the COVID-19, we know that it changed our daily life a lot and line actually publish a press release and it shows that from our users, they increase the group chat to 30, increased by 347 after the COVID-19 outbreak. So question would like to broaden a little bit like how would you think about the work style or even like users daily life will change how people interaction in the future one year or even 10 years? Yeah, I think just as a line, we wrote out screen sharing during the pandemic in that for the desktop version, I think really real-time messaging, including screen sharing is now becoming a commodity like people just open a browser and expect, for example, we're using StreamYard, it doesn't require any installation of anything, it just works. And so that will become like commodity as in is just part and parcel of the work. And this is good because prior to that, we had people maybe more senior in upper management level and their previous experience with video conferencing was really bad. Maybe they have like a laggy microphone or maybe the like screen resolution is bad or if the installation takes a lot of time, maybe there's cybersecurity concern, I can go on, right? And by now the COVID convinced pretty much everybody that no, you don't have to install anything, right? You just pop into this browser and then you can start a video conference together. And so then we get to meet with people who are a lot more frequent users like the senior officers are now seeing, oh, actually it is, you can see each other's expressions pretty well over the screen and certainly better than if you have to wear a mask. So it is better than face-to-face conversation that you had to wear a mask. And so I think that's great. And because of that, then we are now seeing that in many teams whereas there was a lot of like all hands meetings or very large groups, people are now working more in satellite groups like three to five people, maybe just in a co-working space in my office in the social innovation lab, there's this outdoor space with just chairs that's exactly one meters apart. That's two dogs apart, making sure that social distancing is kept so people don't have to wear a mask and they can join via teleconferencing with pretty much anywhere else in Taiwan because we have broadband as human rights. And with the 5G deployment, we can then take this co-presencing even into the most rural areas and even into near the ocean and so on. And that will then allow people to interact with each other in a much more closely knit fashion while understanding that they don't have to be physically in the same space. And so I think the technology is here to support the society migrating into a place where people work closely with just a few people and when they want to feel proximity, they can always step into co-presence using augmented reality or just regular video conferencing or even audio and the audio escape video conferencing and audio conferencing, these are all really mature technologies now. And so that's for the next one year. In 10 years, what we will then learn is that most of the educational needs and most of the healthcare needs and so on like currently only the top surgery using the DaVinci machine and things like that are designed for tele-surgery and so on. But in 10 years, I think we're gradually seeing that because the co-presence technology is so good. Mostly if you summon a doctor that will have the same experience, even a better experience than if you walk to the hospital or to the clinics and the same helps true for schools and teachers as well. And so internet as a co-presence place will augment the face-to-face conversations even more. And I think I really look forward to that because that's how we can do place-making together in a most effective way. Well, very look forward to the future you mentioned. I'm also wondering how about the communication for the language. I read an article that your favorite book is the Dictionaries of Different Languages. And for the interaction generally, we will consider about not only the local interaction but also the global communications. So how would you think about and envision about the language will change in the future? Yeah, a lot of the things about language acquisition, learning a new language is just immersing in a new culture. And so the co-presencing technologies, for example, just projecting oneself into a indigenous nation and working with the indigenous people together is now made much more possible using broadband as a human right and also augment the reality. That's how Taiwan can support our more than 20 national languages because we can't spring the indigenous language teachers practically to all the primary schools because of the National Language Act. Anyone who want to learn about any indigenous language have the right to do so. So what we do is that they join this co-presencing virtual reality and the indigenous teachers in a kind of green screen room just recourse their interaction in this virtual reality so that people can feel that they're in the same language circle together. And so I think this really is a good idea of people immersing themselves in the culture, relying initially on machine translation to get their ideas across. But then they build common memories and that they can associate these with those unique words to that culture so that people can understand new concept that previously was not expressible in their original language. And so they can look at their original culture from the perspective that they're new acquired culture that's called transculturalism. And I think this is also very important. Oh, thank you very much. And I also want to have another questions about the open data. I think this is another important topic because you have mentioned so many times in different interviews that you proposed about the open information and also this combat for the information. So how do you define the ideal situation of open and what do you think about the benefits of open would could bring to the society? And why you feel it as a very high priority between so many issues? So open means that anyone can freely access to use, to modify and share for any purpose. And that's the open definition. It's actually, I'm just reading from opendefinition.org. Why is it important so that both data and content can be freely used, modified and shared by anyone for any purpose? It's because the knowledge in anyone's mind is just one perspective into a structural problem. And we're looking at the most global structural problems now. For example, as you mentioned disinformation. For example, the pandemic itself, climate change, right? All these issues are structural in a sense that there's no single solution that can solve it. If there's a single quick solution, we would have solved it by now, but it requires coordinated action from people from all the different sides. And because of that, if we do not share the facts, that is what data means, that people are working on, we're essentially working on different versions of reality. And so our innovations will not be measurable, meaning that if I innovate, but I don't share the factual basis on which I innovate, then you have no way to see or to check whether this works for your situation or not. So you will then be forced to, you know, invent by yourself, like we say, invent a car out of, you know, closed-door blueprints like beamings out to you. But what we're advocating is that you need to share the blueprint, like exactly which requirements are you looking at for the car? And even before you manufacture the first one, so that people who specialize in wheels, who specialize in steering wheels, who specialize in the engine and so on, they can all do their part. And so you don't have to reinvent the wheel literally. And so I think just getting people on the same reality, making sure that we have the same factual basis to tackle global structural issues, that's the importance and urgency of working in the open. Wow. I'm also curious about an extent question. So you mentioned about the open is to have the facts to everyone. So if we have so many facts, how could we prioritize about, like, which is the most important to proceed? Well, you can rely on each other, right? The collective intelligence. Why would people notice there's seven new SARS cases in Wuhan as reported by Li Wenliang and reposted to PDT is by upvoting? And so upvoting is a decentralized way so that people who see something that's more interesting, they can upvote it so that it gets more people's attention. If it doesn't warrant that attention, people who would downvote it, and then you won't see it again. But if people see that it really is factual and the fact really contributes to our collective understanding, then on PDT it gets upvoted very quickly so that it will explode. And once it explodes, it will really have an explosion later next to it. And then people will notice it very quickly. And so if you compare that to only a few people get to moderate, then if those people made the wrong judgment, for example, Dr. Li Wenliang certainly tried also to share on the PRC social media, but the people who moderate the content there saw this and say that it's counterfactual at least at the beginning. And so it got harmonized, that is to say, taken down from the social media circulation. But I'm sure that these people are not meaning to hurt people in Wuhan. It's just they maybe have some content guidelines and doesn't fit their content guidelines and so on, like maybe they saw it would cause mass panic. But then because the power to censor, to moderate, it's not democratic, it's centralized. When it makes a mistake like in the Li Wenliang case, then everybody pays the cost. But in Taiwan, when it's decentralized and everybody can help moderate, eventually people who specialize, for example, in epidemiology would say, oh, I think these numbers make sense. It looks like it's coming from a real machine and things like that. So that people with different expertise can add in their rationale for upvoting. Like on PTT, usually the fifth commenter is the most professional, right? The professional fifth floor, Zhang Yidu, Ulo. And then people will then be able to collaborate on the fact part which is a little bit like journalism where everybody just contribute a little bit to the collective information. I like the idea you mentioned about the decentralized and rely on each others. Also, I would like to know that about the open data, sometimes it might also invite the privacy invasions of the fear. So I think there is always a fine balance between the convenience and risk. How could you also share us about the fine balance and how could we strike the balance of that? Well, I think the values are the same, right? We all agree that privacy is important. And we all agree that if it's more convenient to use then people are more likely to work with technology instead of against technology. So I really don't think there's a value difference here. What we think is important as I have can actually convey that to a line. For example, like many, many years ago, the line only encrypts end-to-end like two people connections, but on the group it was not end-to-end encrypted. And but they use the same user interface so that people don't know that on the one side it's end-to-end encrypted. On the other side, it really is not. It's only encrypted in transit, but not in storage. And I talked to line saying that I think this is very confusing. And so of course, then line introduced this envelope you know, group scheme so that even in chat groups things are still end-to-end encrypted. And if you get a new device, of course you don't get to see the logs then. And I still do an export import. So in any case, I think that's a, of course, slightly less convenient. I think many of your customers would prefer to see the full log, but you explained it really, really simply saying that for end-to-end encryption to work we must not keep a copy of your chat log. And if we don't have a copy of your chat log and you lose access to all your devices, once you recover, of course you don't get to have the log because we don't have it either, right? And so I think as long as it's accountable meaning that you can provide a full explanation of why it's like that, then I think the users of line eventually saw that, oh really, yeah, it's to protect our own privacy. And they don't mind that they don't have access to logs that much anymore, right? So I think accountability is really the thing that connects the convenience and the privacy together, making sure that people understand the trade-offs they're making, why line chooses this particular way of end-to-end encryption for group chats. And then eventually saying, if you want to keep something to yourself, you can also forward it to line keep, in which case it's no longer end-to-end encrypted because there's only one end, right? And things like that. And this is important because then all the different use cases can be innovated by your users without the government coming out and saying, you know, you're falsely advertising. What line has been doing is that they, well, you advertise very clearly. And if you say, you know, we will know which stickers you use, that's not end-to-end encrypted. You go forward and say, that's because we're selling the stickers and things like that, right? So I think this is important to give a full accountability so that people with different trade-offs, they can change their settings and so on. And the default, if it's always accountable, then I think the government can safely stay out of most conversations. But if it's not accountable, then I think it really is the government's role to make sure that all the technology companies can provide this kind of full account to its users. Wow, thank you very much. Well, actually no, we have, this is the last question, but if we have more time, maybe we could have others questions from Liners like to ask. So could you also share about your version of Steve Jobs commencement state address? And also some Liners would like to have your comments from you to know if they want to be like you, what would you say to them? Okay, so by my version, do you mean that I just read Steve Jobs commencement address? Like, maybe a quick version. Hungry, stay foolish. I've always wished out for myself. And now as you graduate to begin an interview, I wish that for you, stay hungry and stay foolish. Is that what you want? Maybe to make my acoustic model or something? I think maybe for some live story, but it's fine if you are with that. But how about the next one about the Liners, some advice to Liners? Yeah, sure. I think as I often quote Lenny Ko and my favorite poet, the idea that ring the bells, that still can ring and forget your perfect offering. There's a crack in everything and that's how the light gets in. This is very important because anyone has dreams, but only if we dream together, if we have the common values, the common goals, can we look through each other's difficulties and gaps and cracks and become lights that can then go through the existing inequalities, injustices and things like that. So I would say that don't be too perfect because if you have a perfect offering, actually you don't have people who help you. You will then only be able to solve things that are not very big structured, but rather very specific and narrow because only these specific and narrow things can be done to a perfection. If you want to solve real world problems, there's no perfect solution. And as Ward Cunningham's law says, there's no easier way to get people to help you than to give a really bad solution. And then people who feel offended by this, unprofessionalism will then really come out and contribute to your work. And so yeah, be I guess imperfect and also be open. So that when people point out your imperfections, you can invite them and you become the most fellows working on the same goals and same problems. Well, that is really great. Thank you very much for the message. So since we still have some time, could I proceed with other questions as well? Of course. We have like 10 more minutes. Yes, okay, thank you. So some liners are curious about your politics regarding questions. So before like 2020, you were a entrepreneur and after that you joined the got zero and become the politician. What is the reason you decided to become a politician? Well, I'm still a entrepreneur. I guess I'm an now intrapreneur as in I'm starting my own startup within the executive union and call the public digital innovation space or PEDAS. And also I'm a slushie, meaning that I'm also running other startups like the radical exchange with Vitalik Buterin and Daniel Allen and Glenn Weil in New York and also Digital Futures Society in Barcelona and also Consulate Democracy Foundation in Amsterdam and so on. So the digital ministers really just my day job. I'm still doing a lot of entrepreneurship. And so the reason why I saw that the public digital innovation space is a good space for intrapreneurship comes from the 2014 Occupy. When we helped the occupiers who occupied the Parliament in 2014 to do consultations and public deliberation on the street, we saw that many career public service, people in the bureaucracy actually prefer this mode of direct conversation with the people. They also don't like having to go through, you know, elected officials or politicians or representatives. And because the career public service is actually very innovative, they also crave this kind of direct conversation with the people who are closest to the pain. That is to say the stakeholders of public policy all they wanted is a way to peacefully conduct such consultations so that they're signal instead of just noise, right? So the Occupy Parliament movement produced a few consensus. And one of them is to establish a online deliberation participation platform called join.gov.tw that people can review each and every new regulation for 60 days in the drafting stage, each and every budget items and mid to long-term government projects, petitions that people can start who collect 5,000 signatures and demand a ministry or even cross ministry collaborative response and things like that. So that instead of occupying the Parliament for each political issue, we can just use the internet to come to rough consensus. And so I think because the career public service really liked the idea, I started to work with the HR department to train the career public servant in the arts of public consultation. I think I personally trained around a thousand people or so with many other facilitators who work in the Occupy from 14 to 15. And so when the cabinet invites me to be the additional minister in 16, I said, but you see they take advice from me, but I'm not ordering anyone to do anything. I think the career public service really need to be the protagonist in public sector innovation and they're primarily interested. Okay, of course, why not? Right, so that's why I'm a minister. I call myself a small lowercase minister as you're using in your question. That's great. Lowercase digital minister means that I preach and advocate about digital transformation, but I'm not a uppercase minister that issues orders and unilateral commands. And so my main work, I would say, is a poetician that is changing people's ideas about digital only as information communication technology but into a digital as a new, like in Japan's society 5.0, right? A new way for the society to work together. So that's literally my job description which you can bring to the screen if you, yes. So my job description reads like this. When we see the internet of science, let's make it an internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning. And when we see user experience, let's make it about human experience. And whenever we hear that the singularity is near, let us always remember the plurality is here. That's my vision. Oh, that is really nice. Thanks for sharing. And another two questions. It's about the digital societies or how can we improve data literacy for becoming a digital society? So it might involve in three aspects like the government for politicians and for enterprise and also to a general users level. Yeah, don't, don't improve data literacy. Because data literacy or media literacy, I think that's where the term came from, right? Just like people need to become literate in data and in media, just assumes that people are consumers, that they only consume data or consume media, consume digital creativity works. And there's a two classes, people one create and one consume, but the one who creates, one needs the consumer to become literate so they can more appreciate the creators of media and data. But that's, I think, a very radio and television style view because truly with radio and television, only a few people can make television shows. Only a few people are broadcasters on the radio stations because there's only so much spectrum, right? In AM and FM radio, so by necessity, there's only a few people who can create and most people need only to be literate. But nowadays, you don't need a AM or FM band, right? You just need a podcast account and everybody is a podcastor, right? You don't need your own cable channel. Anyone is a YouTuber in Taiwan because broadband is a human rights. Anywhere in Taiwan, you're guaranteed to have 10 megabits per second unlimited data connection at only $16 per month. Otherwise, it's my fault, right? So because of that, anyone with a phone can just become a YouTuber very quickly. And so when everybody produces data and produces media, the thing to teach is not literacy anymore, right? It's competency. It's making sure that people feel the responsibility of essentially being a journalist, being a media producer and the fact-checking that they need to be aware of the framing effect of the social responsibility and people who produce data, for example, measuring their air quality or water quality or whatever and contributing it to the society or making sure that there are stewards of data, like each pharmacist is a steward of the mask availability for the pharmacy. But each person queuing in line is also a collaborator in the collaborative because they keep the steward honest, right? So all this is a co-production, co-creation relationship. And so if people have like every day contribute a few minutes into data stewardship, either by maintaining their local air box stations or by if they have plenty of masks and not collecting it, they can dedicate their uncollected mask quota on the app to international humanitarian aid, right? Including to Japan. And so this is also a data collaborative where we essentially encourage people to anonymously or put their name on it and curate this data set of what we are ready to donate to the nurses and doctors, to the world and so on. And so by participating in curation of data, people will then understand the things that are impossible to teach without first hand experience, including what does it mean to do data collaboratives? How do the incentives works? Data controllership, when we say accountability, that is to say when people complain that data quality is bad, what does accountability means? If you're a data producer, you will also worry about if people entrust their data to you, your personal data, how would you protect those? How would you make it purportable? And things like that. But if you have never been to a place where you are a data steward, none of these ideas make sense to people, right? Just as when people never used as a camera to film some, I don't know, YouTube or home videos or things like that. Many of the newsroom like journalism 101 wouldn't make sense because people have not been behind a camera. They have only been watching things from a television. And so in our K212 curriculum, we make sure that digital competence, media competence is part of our K212 curriculum. And in each and every discipline, each and every class, they teach that by having the teacher not as a holder of standardized answers by encouraging all the children to produce their own interpretation of the world and to curate the data together. And so I think that answers for the citizens. And so for the enterprise, I think what's most important is to work with the people. And sometimes after the people, we talk about how LINE allows for a chat box based open innovation about how LINE instead of censoring messages just rely on people to flag something as fun and things like that. So for an enterprise, the more you can co-create with your users, the more open you are in the landscape of innovation. And that in turn helps everybody to be more digitally competent, including data competence. And the same I think hosts for politicians. If the politicians who work for the maximum benefit of people can also share whatever dashboard that we're looking at to make decisions or even better, you know, have the civil society make the dashboard and we just use the dashboards. And that's reverse procurement and that's work with the collective intelligence and that's no longer working for the people. It's not even with the people, it's working after the people. That's, I think, even more important in the future. Well, thank you very much. I think you also answered the question for it is that if people work each others, then people can cool voice their opinions. Reverse procurement, reverse mentorship, collective intelligence, crowd law, data collaborative sandboxes, presidential hackathon, all these are the ways that we make sure that there's a grassroots decision-making process. Well, that's really nice. Thank you very much. I have the last question from Liners. So in Japan, some younger people in general, they don't participate in elections. So one proposal is that to have the online elections. So what do you think about that idea? Well, I think you can start with not electing people but rather participatory budgeting or some small-scale referendum or citizens assembly and things like that. And the reason is if you're electing for people, then there's this exponential reward, right? If you game the system once, you can get a person who then changed the system for you. But if you're just setting the priorities, for example, in Taiwan, we have national referendum every two years, but each referendum is only binding for two years. And so we can keep doing the same deliberation again and again as the international situation changes and so on. But if you're just electing a person, then of course that's mutually exclusive. We cannot have the same person serving at once, right? As a mayor and then for some other person to also serve as a mayor to try both of them out. That doesn't work. So I would say that online voting is great, but it would be better to start if you vote more frequently. If you don't change the frequency, I really don't think that younger people will be attracted much more because at the end it's just three bits every four years uploaded and they have much more fruitful places for real-time interaction. So again, I think this toll-free number like 1922, that's very useful because every time you call it, not only you immediately get a response, but also your good idea in a day or a week, just become the CCC public amplified response. And that short response cycle at which like our ePetition platform where you can join like 10 petitions at once. I think that is much more useful for younger people and also elderly alike. Oh, thank you very much. And thanks a lot for sharing your opinions about different important topics. As our time is still closed up, I think thank you very much again. And I would like to close the interview today. Okay, thank you and live long and prospering. Live long and prospering. Yeah, okay, bye. Bye-bye.