 Hello and welcome to this very special CNBC news debate from the World Economic Forum in the Dead Sea. We're going to be talking geopolitics and the implications for the MENA region. I want to kick off by introducing our distinguished panelists, the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq, Salah al-Mutlaq, His Excellency, the Foreign Minister of Jordan, Nasir Juda, his Excellency, who needs no introduction, Amr Moussa, as well as the UN Special Envoy to Cyprus and Managing Director here at the World Economic Forum, Espen Aida. Welcome, gentlemen. Now, this region is going through something of a watershed moment. You have a resurgent Iran and a defiant Saudi Arabia, and the question we're attempting to answer today is how those current realignments are going to shape the future of MENA. You have to look at the future role of Iran, especially President Obama now saying that the Gulf region has a vital interest to the United States. So what is the U.S. doctrine going to really mean on the ground? And Mr. Deputy Prime Minister, I'd like to start with you. What's the future role of Iran in the region, given the role in supporting a rock in the fight against the Islamic State, and also in the fact that they're in basically a de facto alliance there with the U.S.? It is clear that the border between Iran is 1,000 to 2 kilometers long. And therefore, this country has to live on its own. And it is not possible for this current crisis to continue. And if it continues, then it will be the opposite of what Iran and Iraq are going to do. Of course, Iran, because of what happened after the occupation of Iraq in 2003, has benefited from this situation. It has become a very strong presence and a great presence in Iraq. It has a special presence, a political presence, a presence even at the religious level, and an impact on the Iraqi society. Today, we are in a battle. And this battle requires that all of the region countries meet together to face it. Because it is not an easy battle. Today, we are fighting a special type of enemy, an enemy that is capable of conquering more than a state. And therefore, this enemy has fought not only on a certain state on its own, but that it has to deal with the international community in general. And especially the countries that are in charge of this enemy. We want Iran to meet with Iraq in the fight against ISIS. But we hope that there will be an Iranian revolution that will also benefit from what is after ISIS. Sooner or later, it will end in Iraq. But what is after ISIS may be a very dangerous issue. And that is why when the issue of the Al-Hajjad Al-Shabi which was divided into two groups before Iran, we say that we want this Al-Hajjad to be involved in this battle. But we do not want this Al-Hajjad to turn into an army that is responsible for the Iraqi army or perhaps the strongest of the Iraqi army. And therefore, we have two armies. And this is wrong. We want an Iraqi army, called the Iraqi army, to fight against all the Iraqis. And we do not want Al-Hajjad Al-Shabi to turn into an army. Al-Hajjad Al-Shabi is willing to fight with the 10 children. But not to turn into militia or military forces in Iraq may create problems later. It affects the social context. It affects the unity of the country. It affects the country's constitution so that we may not find a single country and that a country is divided. I say that the ISIS fighter the military experience is important and the Iranian role can help. And in fact, the first aid, or let's say the first weapons, if it was the first aid or the eighth, came to Iraq from Iran and the United States of America and even the Iraqi army. It came from Iran and even Al-Hajjad Al-Shabi. This is a non-sufficient weapon because the battle with Daesh cannot be considered as a military battle. And the battle in it on the political side is important and there is a political solution to the political problems in the country. A very important issue. And Iran has to play a role in this a positive role because it affects many political parties present today in Iraq. And when Iran plays a negative role then this issue will be reversed negative for Iraq and negative for Iran later. So, they demand today a political solution to the military solution. It will happen in a balanced way so that the citizen can feel that he has a future in this country and he has security so that he can fight the Daesh and fight the others who fight the Daesh. But if the citizen finds that he does not have a future in this country because of the injustice, corruption, and the existence of a political operation he can feel that he has lost it. So, I expect him to fight and there will be a strong human to fight the Daesh. President Obama has been quoted as saying essentially that we're not losing the fight against the Islamic State. What's your take on that? And in terms of your response to those who worry about more weapons coming into Iraq, not just these rockets that President Obama has promised to Iraq but also new weapons coming in from Russia as well. What about the worry that those weapons are going to end up in the hands of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and in the hands of ISIS? I mean, as a result, we have to fight. And we have to be a nuclear weapon that is distinguished in its events and in its nuclear weapons from the Daesh. Or at least, it has to be a balance for the weapons that are in the Daesh. Today, the weapons that are in the Daesh are stronger and better than the weapons that are in the Iraqi army and even the weapons that are at this level. This is a 10-day entry into the areas on the road that are damaged and destroyed and the Iraqi army can't break it when it's facing the direction. So, it's breaking and then it's coming back and it's breaking and this is the real strength of the problem in this road and it needs weapons that break these weapons before it reaches them. Mr. Obama says we are not losing. Maybe he won't lose. But we, the Iraqis, will lose. We will lose souls. We will lose daily martyrs that go out of justice. In the last war, we lost nearly a thousand martyrs from the heroes who were fighting for the past year and a half. And they lost their lives because they didn't have the courage to fight. So, there needs to be a new military strategy for the United States and for the international conflict that was different from the previous strategy. The strikes that are facing today, before the United States and before the international conflict in general, are not enough. And it's clear that there are goals in the United States that it's a red line. And a red line hasn't been able to reach it because the United States is able to stop the strike from reaching these goals. But it has reached other areas that have not reached the United States because it's a red line. Iraq is all and the region has to have a red line to reach it. This is a new strategy that has to do with the United States and the international conflict to reach it in the region. Not to face strikes here and there but above what happened before. What's your take on this? Is the U.S. doing the right thing? Is the international community doing enough? Well, it's not just about one country doing the right thing or not. It's about a collective effort that needs to be conducted in concert between everyone. A lot of people are very unhappy with the United States right now. Well, that's up to a lot of people. But I'm just trying to say that this is an issue that relates not just to regional security or individual country security. This relates to global security. This war against terrorism and extremist ideology does not present a threat to one individual country, whether in this region or beyond. I keep saying that what we saw in the last few months take Sydney Australia, Australia for example, take Paris for example, Ottawa, Canada, Copenhagen not to mention what's happening in the region. This is a global fight. His Majesty King Abdullah II has called it a third world war by other means. And what that means is that when you have 70 or 80 nationalities fighting alongside Daesh and 60 or 70 countries fighting Daesh, ISIS, then it's none other than a third world war. But you can't look at what's happening today in the present without looking at the past from the past. I mean this region and since the title of this session is the geostrategic outlook and how the realignments are taking place you can't do that divorced from the fact that this region for the first time is perhaps taking things into its own hands given the challenges that we're facing. Jordan is in the forefront of the fight against terrorism and extremism because the long-term war is the ideological war. It's not the military war which is as a result of the clear and present danger. It's not the security whether it's region security or global security which has to be tackled because it's also a challenge. It's the ideological war at different levels. Why do I say that this is the first time that the region is taking things into its own hands? Take the four milestones if you want in the last 100 years. Post World War I this region, the Arab region shifted from being under Ottoman rule to being under British and French colonialism or mandates following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Come 1945 and the end of the second world war you see the creation of Israel and the beginning of the plight of the Palestinian people and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and the wider Arab-Israeli conflict and also in conjunction with that you have the Cold War and the polarization of the region. Come 2003 you have the war in Iraq and the dismantling of the state structure in Iraq which led to the ethnic and sectarian violence which spread beyond the borders of Iraq and then you have Arab Spring which I think dealt the final blow and you have ethnic and sectarian strife across our region and you have extremism and extremist ideology and terrorist organization spreading not just within the region but beyond the regions. Is Jordan worried then about the growing influence of Iran and Iraq? Is that a problem for Jordan? Jordan is worried about many things and Jordan has been warning for the last few years if you remember the beginning of the Syrian crisis and we are entering the fifth year of that now right from the beginning we were saying this is not just another domino effect type of event taking place in the context of Arab Spring we were saying that this is going to be a long protracted civil war that is going to change from a rebellion to a political civil war to a civil war of an ethnic and sectarian nature to a fertile ground for the rise and spread of extremism and this is exactly what happened that is going to go beyond the borders of Syria so we are worried but we are doing something about it. When I spoke with His Majesty King Abdullah earlier this week we discussed many things including the rise of the Islamic State and the impact that is having on Jordan it is impacting trade routes it is also impacting this long awaited Iraq and pipeline to Acaba give me a sense then of how Jordan specifically is tackling this challenge Pipelines in today's global geopolitics can be either pipelines as a tool of warfare or as a tool of diplomacy or for some like Jordan a lifeline so when you are talking about a country like Jordan that imports 96% 97% of its energy and in spite of our extremely ambitious energy policy for the next 20 years a pipeline is extremely important to sustain our ambitious plans so it doesn't mean that we are just looking at that we are looking at alternatives as well it is a big problem though because the problem with pipelines is that they can be blown up and of course the pipeline that we are talking about would have to go through the Anbar Province which is quite messy at the moment there is just not only Jordan's interest in the safety and security of Iraq but also the wider regional interest in that because it is impacting trade everywhere and what we are talking about really is the need for inter-nation trade No? Historically and traditionally Iraq is Jordan's biggest trading partner and vice versa so the security and stability and the prosperity of Iraq is very much at the heart of Jordan's national interest we are seeing many concrete steps on the right track in the right direction taking place but we can't undermine the effects and the real danger that the fight against terrorism and extremism and the interference in Iraq's affairs these are all factors that have to be looked at and have to be looked at effectively dealt with extremely I want to bring in Amr Moussa you are a man with the best experience as Secretary General of the Arab League and also in Egypt trying to bring investment to your own country and open up for energy reform which is something that Egypt desperately needs to do how does a resurgent Iran and this sort of defiant Sunni alliance in the Gulf play in the neighborhood? Well let me start by referring to the prevailing anarchy in the region the chaos the confrontations the terrorist actions terrorist organization and so on so this situation has not come just by chance there are a lot of policies exercised by our own governments several of them I believe that the bad governance has led part of what we see today in the region insofar as Daesh is concerned and Daesh is but a demonstration a result of wrong policies have there been no wrong policies violent policies bloody policies by the previous government in Iraq perhaps Daesh wouldn't have that chance of being created a very powerful organization moving in a vast area between Iraq and Syria and also sending elements to North Africa in Libya so this is something new we were discussing that this afternoon and yesterday the whole of yesterday a question mark about Daesh a major question mark we were told by some experts yesterday that the best salaries young people would get is if they join Daesh others have said that not only so when a young man joins Daesh he's assured that there will be some body or some organization that will find a bride for him will get him married get them married perhaps also buy an apartment capital and give him a lot of money from where does this organization get all this money today we were told also that the camions, the cars the pickups, the weapons they're all new and that Daesh is in full control not only of vast areas but of sources of money, of income and somebody also that those elements hundreds of troops or of members of Daesh that were transferred transported from northern Iraq and Syria to Libya who paid for all that with their camions, with their pickups with their weapons and so on this raises a question is this indeed a non-state actor as Ben would tell us and because he started by raising that issue yesterday all it is a proxy war that powerful states are trying to weaken others through or by using such an organization, financing them paying and let them change the lens that's number one number what are we going to do or what would Iraqis for example expect to to reach once Daesh is defeated and this is a question you have raised Mr. Deputy Prime Minister so the situation prevailing the status quo anti is it going to be the same after that the same discrimination the same bloody confrontation between so on or order established part of preparing for that new order three are we witnessing new operation of drawing a new map of the Middle East along the same lines like Sykes-Pickel of 1914 when two diplomats sat down and drew a map this time and I don't know who etc who are moving and trying to impose a certain new map which one is it is it all of the above it is all of the above in one way but more than this above is what we are going to do later on I believe that Daesh is a passing phenomenon violent one but it will come and go it cannot stay and rule the Middle East it is an impossible proposition but what are we going to do I believe that what we in the Middle East need a new regional order we need a new security order to talk about new regional order we have to raise a question mark about the intentions of the emerging of the Iran the new Iran emerging after the deal with the nuclear deal and bringing back its own money what are they going to do with this really quickly or I'm not going to get to our other guests but I'm going to come right back to you I'm ready to stop but those are all elements one after the other that have to be raised and discussed the order in the regional order the security order the nuclear weapons in the region and the the governance how can we achieve good governance in order to avoid repeating the same thing within 10 years or 15 years again got it Osman I very much agree with Amra Musa on this last point I think we have to understand that this crisis is in a deep this region is in a deep crisis which has several roots but to simplify a little bit and it's a simplification one element is the collapse of all systems that we're not able to deliver that creates a vacuum and people looking for new solutions and for some young people the only solution presented is the false allure of Daesh or ISIS which is not only a product of frustration but also a quest for identity meaning and purpose in the world that seems chaotic to a lot of people so you have that part but at the same time is perfectly correct in my view that there's also a strategic competition going on between key players who know what they're doing and who's fueling this and trying to exploit this chaos to advance positions literally and more indirectly in the countries in question in Syria and in Iraq and in Yemen and eventually also in Libya and in African countries so there's a strategic competition in this region which resembles what we're seeing elsewhere I mean in over Ukraine Ukraine is not only about Ukraine it's about Russia and the West in East Asia we also see strategic competition so as Nasir Yuda said earlier today in a different debate here at the forum we can not only understand the region in its regional context we understand the region in the general geopolitical crisis of the world and I also think that there are solutions to this and I think that the solution has to be found in Arab societies all the societies in the region really dealing with change accepting that change must come not the change that's proposed by ISIS and Daesh of course which is actually trying to go back to some very past ideas but the way to include economically and political people who have been longing for that for a long time and it's up to governments to deal with that and secondly we need to understand that if we have strategic competition we need a strategic compromise we need to accept that key players be it the new Iran that may be emerging now with Saudi Arabia and all the Gulf states and Turkey and so on at some stage have to understand that this crisis will not be solved in a single country on its own nor will it be solved by the UN Security Council or the global level that really needs a regional understanding and that has to be promoted and fostered by everybody who believes in peace and cooperation and where is the price of oil in all of this where does that weigh in frankly because you have a situation where Saudi Arabia needs a certain oil price you're going to have Iranian crude coming back onto the market if a deal is reached how does this all play out exactly one year ago today the price of Brent was $110.9 today I think it's 61 so that's 40% lower that's significant it's significant in different directions for some countries who are consumers it's good news because the price of energy is low for producers it's obviously bad news because the price is low and there's less margins and that can influence investment decisions the geopolitical crisis when you add that to that will lead some actors and companies to think well if we have a high oil price I will accept a certain risk but if the oil price is low I will be more careful about risk and that can divert investments in different directions and another important point to recognize is that once upon a time the main direction of flow from Middle East and oil was to the US today is to China so the flow that used to go west are now going east and that means that new great powers whether they like it or not will start becoming more interested in the region and I think many people in the region are now wondering is there a continued American interest at the level we used to maybe the answer is yes but it's a fair question to ask Nasser Judah I want to bring you in here because you guys have just signed some deals with the Chinese some massive deals we talked to those with His Majesty you're also signing with the Russians on some nuclear power plants as well but you're an energy for country where does that leave you guys before we have an ambitious energy program when it comes to renewable and alternative energy we can't continue being hostage to the fact that we are a 96-97% importer of energy and our biggest burden financially every year is our energy and the time has come for us to think creatively and we're doing that and we're doing something about it but I just want to go back if I may to a couple of the points that were mentioned before by my distinguished colleagues Amr Musa mentioned Sykes Pico and next year 2016 we will mark a hundred years of Sykes Pico and some people may call the turbulent events of this region nowadays as the revenge of demography against geography and the geopolitics of a hundred years ago be that as it may the end result is the fact that the chaos and failed states and the weakening of the centrality of the state system and the introduction of non-state players if you look at the period between 1914 even with the influence of global powers in this region but from 1914 up until 2003 there were no non-state players to speak of in this region but since 2003 and particularly in the last four or five years we have non-state players really taking the lead so this takes us back to what I was saying earlier which is the fact that the states in the region are taking the lead back so that they can address the challenges that they face and for us in Jordan like I said with forward looking visionary leadership and with all the constraints political or otherwise that we are facing in this region we're doing something about it as a success model but we don't even a cocoon we have to keep our eye on the region somebody who was trying to be extremely complimentary they told me Jordan is like a beautiful garden in the middle of a bushfire well this is true but we have to do everything in our power in conjunction and collaboration with our regional and international allies throughout this bushfire regardless of the symptoms of it one of the direct results of what we're now calling the Obama doctrine is this defiance Saudi Arabia with a very interesting policy in Yemen the results of which we have yet to really see or probably understand Asim give me your sense on that what kind of progress they're making there and how that is going to have a knock-on effect throughout the region I think Yemen is but one of the many examples of this strategic competition between you know on the one hand Saudi Arabia and some other Arab players and Iran and it can be really unperceived but it's Yemen is about much more than Yemen and it's a part of this big game or big play that's going on in this region and why so when we said Syria has to be sold in a regional context I mean Yemen can also only be sold in a regional context as well if the players want to solve it I think it's incredibly important to follow closely what's happening with Iran and in Iran I mean what's happening with Iran I mean the relationship between the P5 plus 1 and Iran in the nuclear talks and what that can lead to when it comes to realigning relationship on a very grand scale and secondly what's happening in Iran as a consequence of that what kind of power shift may that lead to inside that's going to be one of the most important drivers of change in the region we don't know exactly how but it's very very important for anybody interested in this region to follow that very closely and it's quite exciting, quite interesting and for some people quite frightening Amr Moussa I believe we have to be clear about this issue of Iran we are not promoting animosity and we should not promote animosity between Iran and the Arab world but this puts serious responsibility on our shoulders and on Iran's shoulders. Iran has to show that her ambitions and all countries have ambitions are not to boost about controlling capitals and controlling countries Arab countries and so on something that should be eliminated from the jargon, from the talk, from policies the Middle East, the Arab world is going through a major and deep change operation call it revolutions, call it as you call it, but it is a real operation of change in the Arab world the Arab world is going to be a different Arab world in a few years won't go back to the 20th century and practices or even centuries before that so who's going to hold Iran to account for this who's going to hold Iran to account for this because the United States is pretty much checked out as far as we can tell, at least for the foreseeable future so is it going to be Egypt is it going to be Iraq, is it going to be Jordan who's going to hold Iran to account and we have to sit and talk we ourselves have to sit and talk so it's a conversation we should not believe or listen or wait for any promises promises of the like that we heard and we were hurt by such promises that were never honored we're not going to listen to anymore of that, but we have to sit and see what kind of future our region needs to be and this needs the Arabs, needs Iran needs Turkey, all of them under conditions of peace and peaceful relations and just legitimate aspirations and this brings the Palestinian question which was raised by the Deputy Prime Minister, in order for Israel to be able to participate yourself, not sir if Iran if Israel wants to participate and be part of this region they have to change their policy and address properly the Palestinian question and the Palestinian aspirations, otherwise I don't think any of us would sit at the same table with Israel if the Palestinian issue that's right, no I just want to comment on Iran we remember that four years ago he and I and a few of our Arab colleagues were actually talking about a dialogue with Iran and they need to have a dialogue with Iran on some of the lingering issues, some of the tensions but the general feeling was that before we come to the table we have to have a clear commitment and resolve that these issues are to be resolved now as far as the nuclear file is concerned we in Jordan four or five years ago even when there was talk of an imminent military strike against Iran, we were out there saying that we are against this we do not need another eruption we do not need another factor of instability in an already volatile region and that this file should be resolved diplomatically and so in the context of the P5 plus 1 discussions with Iran and the nuclear file I think there's general and universal agreement now that this is not only acceptable but encouraged we are hoping though that this will be a gateway towards a wider discussion on several issues in the region, I mean the deputy prime minister from Iraq my distinguished colleague was saying earlier he kept referring to Iran as the neighbor Iran and Iran is a neighbor to this region but you can't have a neighbor with ongoing differences and ongoing problem areas and like I said if you go back in history Iran and Turkey between 1914 and 1948 actually were not really involved in the Arab affairs of the Arab region I think we only saw the involvement of Iran or the influence of Iran post 1979 and the influence of Turkey even more than that perhaps the only non-Arab state actor in the 50's and 60's and 70's was Israel so in order to have a regional discussion I totally agree with Amr Musa, a regional discussion that includes everybody I think many of the differences have to be resolved and have to be removed off the table in order to sit and talk about the regional concerns and how this region can address other concerns beyond the region what I want to say is that at the end we have to have a dialogue with our neighbor Iran in order to solve the problems between us and the Iranians and since Iraq is so weak nowadays we cannot expect that the dialogue will go on in a fair way when there is a weak partner and the other one is strong enough therefore we have to have a dialogue between the region and Iran actually the Arabs and Iran and that dialogue should continue until we reach an end not just trying to cheat each other no what is happening now is that we know that with the exportation of the Islamic theory from Iran to the other countries this will never lead to stability in the country so this has to be ended in a way that it will not end to an interference in the other countries now having militias in Iraq or in other countries which is being supported by the Iranian it is unfair and you cannot build a good relation with the country while there is a support from one country to a militia and the other country economically Iran will benefit from a strong relation with Iran and with the region and the region also will you know will see stability which will end by real development economic development in those countries and this is what we need to benefit all of us to have and to reach a settlement with Iran what is going on in Yemen will definitely be reflected to other countries we will see it in Iraq and we will see the consequences of what is happening there in Iraq and Syria and some other countries therefore we have to have a settlement with our neighbor but this settlement has to be done through a region talking to Iran a strategic plan to be taken with Iran not just we talk to the and we leave it for the other there for something else is happening in Yemen a direct result of US disengagement in the region Iran is what is happening in Yemen a direct result of US disengagement or this so called Obama doctrine no I think what's happening in Yemen you know I wouldn't say that the United States is involved in it but I would say that what's happening in Yemen is going to be reflected on the other countries definitely it will not end at Yemen it will we will be seeing the consequences on the other countries so no ground forces in Yemen as of yet taught me through the strategy from your point of view in terms of what Egypt's role is going forward Egypt role in Yemen that brings to the discussion the situation in Yemen and what is happening in Yemen and the policies that have promoted this chaos in Yemen threatening the security of Saudi Arabia and in fact showing that there is something new in the region that is going to so havoc more havoc in the region that's what prompted the Arabs in general to sit and think what's going on we have been as the collective Arab body that the Arabs are weak we can do anything to them now if you want to change the situation in Yemen you do it in Iraq Syria etc. you do it and perhaps other countries were and still on this list so the decision is not a question of wars but the decision of Saudi Arabia to invite Arab countries around 11 countries to support it in her firms against what is happening in Yemen is a very serious strategic message that enough is enough some went up by saying that we call the shots in four major capitals and in Baghdad with all the history of Baghdad pertaining to us the Arabs or Damascus for that matter or Beirut or Sana'a so to deal with us that way has triggered the reaction and this was the first reaction and I believe that it was right the I personally believe that what Saudi Arabia did is the right thing and that Egypt supported Saudi Arabia is the right thing because we have to send back a message that sorry we cannot accept neither the the what we see now as the beginning of new policy new policies in the region that we are the majority in this region and we have to have a voice in its future if I may just to build on that point I mean I agree that the fact that an initiative was taken by Saudi Arabia with other coalition members to do something about the situation in Yemen and to to go intervene on the side of the legitimate government is a case in point to prove that again we're changing from an old regional order to a new one where the region takes the lead in its own issues in its own effort but it's not the first time and that's where maybe I depart from or perhaps you'll agree with me once I finish saying it it's not the first time, I think the fact that we in the region have taken the lead in the fight against terrorism and extremism also by saying as we do in Jordan that this is our fight, this is an Arab Muslim fight not an international fight not a crusade we had the same situation back in 2001 in Afghanistan where people here in Jordan the debate was why are we going to fight America's war in Afghanistan we were not fighting America's war in Afghanistan we were fighting those who were distorting the image of our religion and who were about to knock on our door and they did in 2005 here in the hotel bombings in Jordan so again the situation is very similar now where if you look at the fact that this is a fight within Islam this is a fight that has to be led by Muslims so that we can again stop this distortion of the religion and fight warped ideology with a more convincing one give me a sense then of where we are in that fight I definitely recognize a stronger Arab collective assertiveness as just been described by Amra Musa and Nasser Yudah and that's maybe it's not new now that in a long time that's an interesting observation and I think the reasons were given just now I still would like to point out that this geopolitical competition between key players plus the chaos in states that broke down or are breaking down of course it's a tragedy in itself because we have hundreds of thousands of lives lost in Syria and elsewhere we have millions of refugees in this country only I think there's one and a half million refugees from Syria and it's on top of the Palestinians who are already here it's actually incredible that the country is doing as well as it does given all these challenges around but one of the tragedies of course it that takes away energy and attention and political cloud to deal with what is really the long term challenges which is economic reform, political reform give the young people a hope you know this is not to say that the security measures aren't necessary because they are but it's extremely important to understand that some of this is tactical response to a long term challenge and the region needs to come more to ease with itself in order to be able to start what is urgently necessary because there's hundreds of millions of people who are striving for a better life and it's possible there's resources there are educated people there's potential it's close to important markets but that is not really happening because there's this fight and there's this geopolitical competition that we're seeing here so I just wanted to say that that's also a security argument because security is not only about guns and bombs it's also about providing stability that people believing in the long run So what's the test case going to be are we talking, we're going to try this in Egypt we're going to try this in Jordan who's going to be the best test case because we were in Sharma El Sheikh earlier this year we were talking to everyone on the ground there about investing in Egypt and the future of Egypt and how important it was that the economy get on the right track so that state how are we going to get that process started is it started in that country or was this just a lot of hype I didn't get the last portion of your question have we gotten started yet in terms of the process to making this a secure state and as a result of that you have a very strong economy in Egypt Egypt is now changing and doing a lot to rebuild its economy and rebuild the country itself after not only four years of chaos but in fact after many decades of bad governance it is a real challenge to rebuild a country like Egypt we will be 100 million inhabitants within four years by 2010 we have to no, 2020 2020 so the challenge is immense but the motto should be we have got to be serious we cannot build the economy on just donations or help coming from abroad but through policies to use all the to make use of the all the potentials we have and we are optimistic about that and the first step should be the elections the president today said in his speech that the elections are going to is the first step that he is going and his government is going to organize so we are on the optimistic side we know how serious the task is but we know that Egypt has a double task to rebuild its economy and its society and join its fellow Arab countries, Middle Eastern countries African countries, Mediterranean countries and the change that is taking place and I was pleased when I listened to the inaugural speech of President Sisi when he referred to Egypt as an Arab country an African country and a Mediterranean country and this is a new opening, new approach that we know the interaction with Europe, with the Mediterranean is so important in the economic and security relations but the first is we are an Arab country and we will remain so so some serious changes in the region, some major realignments of these countries gentlemen I want to thank you for participating in the CNBC debate and we will have to leave it there thank you all very much thank you