 Live, I'm Jay Fidel. This is Global Connections. And happy to report that Carlos Juarez is here with us and Carlos. And we're enjoying Global Connections with him. We're going to talk about U.S.-Mexico relations in uncertain times. You know, we catch up on this and other international relations issues with Carlos. And it's always interesting to see how, you know, U.S. appears on the world stage. So welcome to the show, Carlos. As well. Welcome, Jay. Always a delight. And, you know, our connections are always there. I'm excited to share with you. Again, we often do this. We talk particularly about this complex relationship of the United States with Mexico. Quite often, especially in Hawaii and in the Asia Pacific, it's not quite on the radar given, you know, just the geographic proximity, even in the mainland U.S., sometimes Europe or, you know, China become more important. But anybody who knows just from basic, you know, both culture and commerce and trade, Mexico is the big, big U.S. partner. It's a complex relationship. It's fair to say that today U.S.-Mexico relations are at pretty much an all-time low, kind of like with China, kind of like with our European allies. Trump has brought in, you know, a different style of leadership and approach and, you know, rather confrontational with Mexico, more focus on the security, the wall, you know, some ugly names that he, you know, he spoke in his address when he, you know, when he accepted the, or when he announced his candidacy, right, Mexico sends their words, their rapists, blah, blah, blah. Well, setting that aside, I think it's important for us to understand the relations continue to operate on many levels. So part of it is government to government, you know, president to president, and that's one thing. At another level, especially now, the last 25 years of this NAFTA, deep interdependence, there's a lot of interconnections that go on at the sort of, I want to say, you know, the level of, let's say, bureaucrats and business people. And there's always been, of course, a massive, massive connection between flows of labor markets, workers, you know, immigrants that go and come as well, just the family connections, you know, a large population. And let me just, before we move ahead, I want to say a few factoids about this because, of course, Mexicans see it often very different from the view of the U.S. For the U.S., there is this border, this legal boundary, and there's us and there's them. And yet, this region of the Southwest U.S. used to be part of Mexico. It's populated by populations that have been there for generations, for centuries. Obviously, the larger population are newer arrivals within the last century and waves of immigrants that have come. But, you know, long before even Anglo-Americans settled into places like Texas, you had communities, you know, El Paso, Santa Fe, San Antonio, they were always Mexican. And they are today. They are a Mexican majority in so many cases. A couple of other quick things. Obviously, we have this 2000-mile border. Nowhere else in the world do you have two countries that have such a difference in level of development and the deep interconnection. And, you know, today Mexicans continue going. However, the flow has slowed down a bit. We don't have the waves that we used to in past years, in part also because there's a net return migration. Many Mexicans have either, you know, for different reasons and choice or circumstance are coming back. So we're not seeing a huge flow. But it does continue and it's more diverse than ever. Today, it includes skilled workers, professionals, students. Obviously, unskilled workers, no doubt continue. We'll talk a little bit more about the pandemic and what implications that might have because it could go both ways. We could see Mexico suffer and, you know, have more waves coming. We also have other circumstances that have made it more difficult. But obviously, Mexico and the U.S. share this complex relationship. What I want to show with you briefly is, you know, the relationship always complex. Always multi-levels going on. So, you know, many things kind of like you might see with China as well. Complex relations, you know, trade, human rights, you know, law enforcement, etc. Under the more recent Trump administration, I mentioned we've had, of course, a more confrontational approach. But it's also been a change in that we have, in some ways, policy done more by executive decree. Donald Trump has not been able to get a lot of immigration policy changes done through the Congress through laws. And so it's more in the form of executive actions that he's, you know, constantly signing. There's a very interesting report I want to share. I'll just show the title of it here. If I can get a quick look at it. We have a picture, a recent report published some months ago by the Migration Policy Institute, one of the leading sort of think tanks. And this is a report called Dismantling and Reconstructing the U.S. Immigration System, a Catalog of Changes Under Trump Presidency. And what it addresses and what it looks to is, you know, what are the various ways in which, you know, different changes that have been reshaping U.S. immigration policy since his arrival, you know, January 2017. But let me just put it in the context too. The United States has not had any substantial, or maybe let me rephrase it, has not had a comprehensive immigration reform since the mid-80s. You might remember Jay Long ago, there was an Immigration Reform and Control Act under President Reagan. They got negotiated. It went through a lot of debate and discussion in the Congress. It provided an amnesty for a large population that was there. It also set up sort of worker sanctions that were very easy to violate. But the idea was that you're supposed to show IDs, et cetera. But, you know, that was weak. But my real point is that we have not had any immigration reform since then. There have been a few piecemeal actions here and there. In the year 2000, we had a window of opportunity. George W. Bush was the new president in the U.S., governor of Texas. You know, he has a brother married to a Mexican. He knows Mexico. Vicente Fox is elected president in Mexico, very pro-business governor. They began a dialogue to have a potential guest worker program legal process. Well, 9-11 happens and guess what? Here we are almost 20 years later. Good luck with any immigration reform or consensus. You look today in 2020, we don't have a tradition of bipartisanship. Immigration is a hot item. We've got, you know, polarized society. So it's probably unrealistic to expect a comprehensive immigration bill even if Biden wins and has a majority in the Congress. It's a very dicey issue. Having said all that, I mean, again, I think right now we're still going to have to continue figuring out what's going to happen with the outcome of the election because it could go different ways. If we have a reelection of President Trump, one possible scenario, we would probably see more continuity of this using executive actions. And rather, you know, I guess you could say hard line positions in general, you know, toughening the border, restricting access, limiting visas on and on. If there's a Biden victory, again, we can only speculate. It really depends on what control of the Congress happens and whether that will allow a reform. But I go back to this idea, the days of bipartisan immigration reform, probably challenging. I mean, I can't predict it with certainty, but I think even in a post-Trump world, it's going to be challenging to have consensus on that. Let me stop for that and maybe I'll let you tease out a few things and I'll come back to continue expanding on this. But what I'm suggesting here is that U.S.-Mexico relations are very important and complex, but it's going to take a lot of time to figure out how to deal with this immigration issue because it's got so many pieces of the puzzle, you know, the immigrants in the U.S., whether to provide amnesty, the whole challenge of migrants that are coming from Central America, the caravans that we've talked about at times, and add to that the pandemic and what are the implications of that? So, a challenging issue for U.S. and Mexico. Yeah. Well, you talk about immigration through the caravans and, you know, Mexican people trying to get into the U.S. And most of those are Central American. Remember, those caravans are from Central America. They're coming across Mexico. And Mexico, by agreement, stopping them at the border or sending them back. And it's complex and it's mean and nasty, like separating families. Mean and nasty. But what, you know, what's an interesting possibility is this. There are people here in Hawaii and elsewhere on the mainland who are very concerned about a continuation of the Trump administration because it's mean and nasty, not only in terms of immigration in, but in terms of domestic policy and domestic, you know, civil rights and so many things that have happened that are so devastating and threatening, including, of course, his non-policy on COVID and his policy on health care. Oh, my goodness. There are people here. I'm sure you know some who would like to leave the United States if he's reelected. In fact, some of them want to leave right now. And so, you know, hear about people lining up at the American consulates in Canada trying to get Canadian papers. And for that matter in Asia, I think it's harder in Europe, but there are people who want to get out of town. They don't see a future here. And I mean, I understand them. The question is, and we've always had retirees who leave the United States, go to Mexico. You know more, but I think they're all over Mexico because it's about one million US residents. I expect that there'll be a lot more lining up on the Mexican border to try to, you know, get papers to live in Mexico and find a better home. And although, you know, Mexico has, you know, economic problems, it has violence with the gangs and all that and the drugs, the fact is that, you know, voting is universal. I really like that idea. I like the idea that Amlo is in for six years. I know if he's bad, that's too long. If he's good, that's too short. But you know, there's a lot of liberal things about Mexico. You can have a nice life in Mexico. You're in Mexico right now, I think, yeah. And so I think there are people who have some familiarity with who would like to be there. And I just wonder if there is or is going to be an onslaught of American applications for citizenship or permanent residence in Mexico. What do you see, Carlos? I'm not sure I would say a lot. I mean, the appeal for some is that you can have a quality of life that's more affordable. That is living in Mexico on social security pension or retirement pension. You know, $3,000 a month will go a lot farther than it might in the U.S. where you could be, you know, but having said that, I'm not sure that Mexico has quite the either capacity or appeal because it has its own challenges and they are there. Now, this large community I've mentioned of expats, as they're called in Mexico, they're concentrated in certain areas, you know, some of the colonial cities in central Mexico, San Miguel de Allende comes to mind. And there are a small number of growing retirement communities. It's still not common in Mexico to have what we see in the U.S. these very, you know, well-organized retirement communities, not so common in Mexico. However, there are a small number happening and Americans are the main clients for some of these. They're sort of Americanizing it. But I don't know, having said all that, I think it's hard to say. I mean, Mexico is not an easy place for those who like it and enjoy it and, you know, want to have that. But it's a country with its own real serious social challenges and problems, a lot of inequality, a concentration of wealth. So there are some tough issues. Now, again, it doesn't stop a million Americans from living there. In fact, it's part of the appeal that it is a different quality of life, a different pace. But my first thought, again, I'm just thinking out loud, I don't know that it's going to be the host of a lot of political refugees. I think Canada is more appealing for quality of life and even being able to, especially if you're working. Here I would just go back to this. The Mexico appeals more to the retiring American who doesn't have to work and doesn't have to worry about that. And already knows Mexico or got connected somehow. So they now say, hey, I can go there and do it. Beyond that, I'm not going to see it as a place that's going to suddenly appeal to people who don't have a connection and work opportunities are going to be challenging for an American who wants to work there. Anyhow, let me leave it at that for now. But yeah, we are living in uncertain times, of course. I think the interesting thing, and maybe just to bring it back to the US-Mexico relationship, is this is not unique to the US and Mexico, but in a lot of places, you are having people who traditionally would come to the US and stay there. Immigrants increasingly are finding a reverse brain drain. Years ago, you might remember who was this guy, a local guy that had written a book about this guy. What was his name? I can't remember if he was with the Campbell estate or he was some... He was an academic, connected with the UH. Anyhow, his book was about the reverse brain drain, where traditionally Mexico would send its best and brightest and they would become engineers and bankers in the US, and that still happens. But increasingly, skilled workers who are coming back, and they could be even lower income, but they've got skills. In other words, this return migration. Some of them are professionals, and they might be coming to Mexico because now they have all the comforts of the first world here, the same in India, the same in other parts of the developing world, where mobility and technologies allow us to do that more. So again, maybe I could see some finding a little patch of a piece of beach in southern Mexico or someplace. The challenge I would go back to this, having lived in Mexico some years now, is that you need to get good connection to the internet, and that's not universal in Mexico. It is in the big urban centers, but in some of the remote areas, unless you're prepared to live as a recluse in a little cabin, you need good internet access. You've got to be in the urban centers, so that's what it is. I'll rule out the possibility that some creative investors and entrepreneurs will create senior facilities, senior communities, including Broadband. Yes, of course. No, you have to. Life for anybody who lives there, and we'll encourage Americans to come. Is it hard to get papers? Well, in general, it's not hard to come, and many Americans do it if you go back and forth. Now today, that's constrained. The border is closed, although not realistically, but it has been slowed down. But what I'm getting at there is that you can go and live in Mexico for some time without having to worry about a permanent residency visa, I think up to six months. I may be guessing there, but it's not like often people from other countries might travel and have 90 days or more restricted tourist visa. What is more difficult is the work visa, of course, and even permanent residency. There is a process, and you go through it, and you have to learn it, but it's there. Nevertheless, Mexico does accommodate, again, a lot of foreign nationals. Americans are the number one. There's large communities of Europeans and South Americans that are also immigrants. Let me just say this again, curiously, like the United States, Mexico is one of these countries that has every aspect of the migration. It is a sending country, migrants leave Mexico, it is a receiving country. They come from everywhere. It's a transit country, the Central Americans, but also Caribbean and even African immigrants coming through Mexico to get their way, even from China, showing up in Tijuana and then crossing the border that way. It has all of these complexities. It's also a destination place, again, for Central Americans and Americans that we've just described, these expats that are coming, retirees in particular. Well, let me ask you this. We had a show last week where we had actually one of our guests on from Kobe, Japan, another one from Paris at the same time. That was interesting. We compared notes on how the people in those places felt about the election. Because the fact is that when Trump gets on, like the debate tonight, coming soon, actually, the whole world watches. MSNBC, CNN, for that matter, Fox News, the whole world watches. I am really wondering. You say relations are at a low point and I'm sure Amlo is watching because he wants to, he should want understand his options with Biden if Biden wins. The question is, as I asked Kobe and Paris, how do people feel? They're just as familiar in many ways as the average American is with what's going on in Washington and with Trump. Do they like them? Do they not like them? Are they hoping, wishing, praying for a Biden landslide? How does Amlo feel about that, if you know? Yeah. Well, a couple of quick thoughts. Amlo is not likely to watch it. He doesn't have a keen interest in, he knows, he doesn't know English, which is the first Mexican president in literary generation since the 80s. He's not very interested in diplomacy and global affairs. He will get a briefing from his foreign minister and obviously, you know, his advisors who will be watching it intently. And the foreign minister, obviously, that's his role as a diplomat. And I just mentioned that about the Mexican president because he's kind of just, you know, he's just, that's not his thing. But having said that, in the Mexican population, there's certainly a lot of interest, no doubt. There is, especially among the more educated elite, I mean, very keen to see what the implications are going to be. The overall stereotype impressions, well, Trump is, you know, he's not well liked in general. Overall, many are critical because he has been very critical of Mexico, no doubt. There is a small minority who actually see that maybe, you know, Trump could be beneficial for Mexico by pressuring the Mexican government, by obviously, you know, the sort of more law and order types or the sort of, you know, big billionaire investor type. But I would say that on the whole, the, you know, consensus and the majority is like they would prefer the Trump, you know, go away and move on because it has been very adversarial. And most notably, last year in the summer, you had a very big crisis where you had these caravans coming through Mexico and Donald Trump using his threat of the tariff wars. You remember, he was throwing tariffs everywhere. He basically pressured the Mexican government to accept a tougher position. They had to redeploy or to deploy a newly created national guard to the southern border to kind of stop the flow. And if they did not, literally the U.S. was providing a specific threat that they would increase tariffs, you know, I think, you know, 5% every month for them, as they showed indicator. So it was playing, it was also very rare, the first time that immigration and migration control was connected to trade policy. In other words, you do this or else we will put the squeeze on you with an increase in tariffs, taxes on your goods. And in the end, the Mexican government, the president Amal had to agree this is part of the asymmetrical relationship between Mexico and the U.S. The U.S. is a bully and a superpower and more or less calls the shots. It gets what it wants. For the Mexican president, it was awkward. He had to, you know, sort of do it, but also in a way to kind of frame it so he could sell it to the domestic audience, not an easy task. So back to the election, yeah, there's a lot of keen awareness. People are interested in it. As you know, I have students I teach both in the U.S. and in Mexico. The Mexican students I have, of course, these are, you know, they're more educated, more elite, but they're keenly aware of it. I would actually tell you they know more about our system than most Americans do. Even the intricacies of the electoral college and, you know, the swing state. But, you know, there's a lot at stake and, you know, more practically for, let's say, young generation like my students. I mean, the option of coming to study in the U.S. right now, it's very uncertain. It's difficult. Even if you get an award, you know, can you get a visa? Everything's been kind of on hold. I think as a result of that, the young population is increasingly looking to Canada and to Europe and to other places to build connections and, you know, go study abroad, do a master's degree in Australia instead of the U.S. or Canada. And that is definitely reflected as well. But look, having said that, at the end of the day, the United States will always be the most important player for Mexico and Mexicans have to accept that too. It's the main economic partner. Well, this is a low point in relations. That's, you know, that's a serious characterization. It must have effect on the Mexican economy. And for that matter, the oil industry and other related, you know, economic phenomena. So query, you know, how is the Mexican economy doing in the face of this low point in relations, especially around the oil economy? Yeah. Well, I would say that while the relations are low, it has more to do with the relationship, the personal ties between the leaders and the draconian immigration policies. The economy, I mean, you know, it's a mixed bag. But in general, the U.S. has a vested interest in Mexico having a stable and prosperous economy. And for example, with the pandemic, the U.S. put a lot of pressure on Mexico to keep the factories churning, you know, those automobile parts and the assembly of automobiles, et cetera. So and yet, having said that, like every place on the world, Mexico is certainly suffering, you know, from the pandemic, the clampdown, more than half the population is in the informal economy. And they, you know, they are suffering as well. But let me just clarify this, that the low point in U.S.-Mexico relations is not like it's punishing or making Mexico suffer more necessarily economically, because there's a deep level of interdependence. And this is why I would say beyond the relations between the leaders, there's a lot going on between basically the, in the economy between, you know, economic sectors, a lot of foreign investment from the U.S. in Mexico and vice versa. Mind you, Americans are not aware, but there's huge Mexican investments that are growing in the U.S. in different sectors, you know, from food stuff to, you know, cement and parts. A lot of large Mexican companies are now penetrating the U.S. market increasingly. So I mean, the economy is big, it's complex, and it's mostly the automobile sector that is interconnected. So again, I go back to the United States, wants to make sure Mexico doesn't flounder because it will affect the U.S. as well, if it cannot produce, you know, and continue. What about Mexican entrepreneurship and creativity? You know, adversity is an opportunity, sometimes it's painful, but it's an opportunity. And I really wonder whether the wall and this whole, you know, thing that Trump has built to keep Mexico out actually creates a beneficial environment for entrepreneurs and for creative development and business. I was, you know, just joking, thinking right now, when you build the wall, well, it's Mexicans that are going to build it to begin with, but also Mexican companies, specifically, there's a massive oligopoly, practically a monopoly, a cement company from Mexico, one of the largest in the world. They're the ones who benefit from any construction and walls. But having said that, I guess I would say this, let me just think, you know, the labor markets that flow mostly from the U.S. to North, those continue, and, you know, they're just part of it. That's not being stopped. And so the wall, it's more symbolic. And it's also, I think from the perspective of Mexico, it's more of an insult because from, I would go back to this, the psyche, the mentality from many of those Mexicans across it, it's just an obstacle. It's not going to stop them. It's going to slow them down and make them think twice. But in the end, they're simply going with the natural flow of where the jobs are. There's a pull factor. In other words, the jobs in the U.S. are essentially pulling and giving incentives for people to come. And they're going to do it. They're going to do it at all risks and sometimes very dangerous, or they have to pay smugglers to bring them over in many cases. So it's a dangerous venture, but it's driven by this pull of the United States. It's historic for many years. So a question, big question, Carlos. You know, there is a fair chance, and I knock wood when I say that because I voted for Biden and I would urge all my friends to do the same. And, you know, there's a fair chance he'll win. Somehow he'll get through, you know, this gauntlet that Trump is setting up for him, including tonight at the debate, and he'll become the president. And he's going to have his hands full, fixing all the damage, the horrendous damage that Trump has rendered on this country and for that matter the world, including Mexico. What would be your advice to Biden on Mexico-U.S. relations? What could he do to straighten things up and, I don't want to say return, but create a better international relationship, discussion, engagement between the U.S. and Mexico? Well, again, in these last few minutes, it's real quick. I mean, part of it is going to be to reverse many of the policies that we've seen, you know, draconian measures to address the DACA, make sure it's clear, essentially to relax and go back to, you know, what was the previous administration's policy. Now, obviously, if you're a supporter of the harder line and, you know, the position that Trump has taken, that would be like a sellout or going back. On the other hand, it is a more humanitarian and, you know, and rational approach. Beyond that, I would say what you're likely to need to do in rebuilding trust and relationship, you have to engage, you have to be present, in that case, in Mexico. There has to be even building the personal relations. So ultimately, Joe Biden will need to come to Mexico. I mean, this has been a tradition for decades where one of the first places you visit is the other. It doesn't have to even be Mexico City. They could meet at the border, they could meet at some ranch, they could meet, you know, whatever. They'll do that often. Obviously, the more formal part would be hosting a, you know, a state dinner. Frankly, I don't know that Ambulo is likely to do it, but he would be smart if he invited Biden to come and hosted him for a visit. What I'm getting at here is that leaders do have to develop personal relations, and that goes a long way. Trump never came to Mexico as a president. He did come, however, in 2015 as a candidate, and it was a very controversial visit. The then president, the predecessor, Peña Nieto, invited him and he came and he gave him almost like a reception that was like a head of state. You know, they had a big press conference and many here were critical of Peña Nieto. It's like, wait a minute, he's just a candidate. He's not the president because Hillary Clinton didn't come. I can't recall that she was even invited, but the point is that Trump comes as a candidate, but he has not come as a president. Ambulo finally went this past July, a few months back in the summer, and went to the White House, signed the revised NAFTA, the USMCA agreement, and yet many critical of that, saying, well, now he's best friends with Trump. What's going to happen with Biden? Is it going to be complicated? Well, at the end of the day, I don't think so. I mean, look, any president has to work with your neighbor, and I would hope that if there is a move to a Biden presidency, it would simply reopen this tradition of, hey, let's meet, even if it's just at the border, or maybe Amlu can go to San Antonio, Texas, and we can have a meeting there and talk story, because in diplomacy and in bilateral relations, you need to develop those ties to foster, I guess, a breakthrough. And I think that would go a long way. Other than that, obviously, just a whole change in the policy back to what had been before will go a long way to open more cooperation and coordination, because again, Mexico and the US, there's a lot going on in cooperation over security issues, fighting the drug war. In fact, just this past week, I don't know, Jeff, you saw this, but in the LAX airport, the FBI Homeland Security arrested the former defense minister of Mexico, who was there the six years of the previous government, Peña Nieto. He was arrested basically for corruption and all kinds of charges. That's a big deal. And, well, it's part of an ongoing challenge that Mexico has dealing with corruption at the highest levels. What about beyond returning to the good old days? I hate to use that, bring back the good old days, but what about exceeding the good old days? What about doing better? I mean, ideally, what would you like to see in a denouement of the relationship between the US and Mexico? I mean, if you had a clear slate, what would you like to see? Well, it's a challenge because it's not only the bilateral relationship. In other words, there just needs to be more mutual respect, appreciation, showcasing context. But what I'm getting at also is that in the United States, because this population of Mexicans is so large and it's such a key fabric of, and again, in Hawaii, we don't always appreciate that. That's because we don't have enough Mexican restaurants. Well, and the population, while it's there, it's buried. It's drowned out by the Filipinos, by the others. Even Puerto Rican, local Puerto Ricans that have been there a century are more prominently figured. But that aside, the reality for the mainland of the US is that demographics are happening there. Mexicans have always been there, but they're coming, they're growing. And even the population growth that we've had now is natural growth. In other words, there's not huge immigration that's coming. It is the population itself that is expanding. And let me give you a finish this with a couple of quick factoids. Obviously, we've seen a tremendous growth in the last 30, 40 years. Just some figures here in 1970, the Latino, not just Mexican. Mexicans are two thirds. They're the majority of the Latino. But they made up only 4.5% in 1970. By the year 2010, 16.3%, surpassing African Americans. By 2020 now, they're expected to be much higher than that, over 20 million. And here's a couple of dramatic points to mention. In the year 2010, 10 years ago, one of every four babies born in the US was born to a Latina mother. 10 years ago, probably a little more now. By 2050, the Latino share of the nation's total population is projected to nearly double. Today, it's 16%, or maybe 10 years ago, it's expected to be 30%. So one in three US residents will be Latino. One in three. Well, what I'm getting at here is that I think you need to also embrace the Latino identity culture that's in the US and use that as a way to harness better relations with Mexico. I guess what I'm getting at there is that, yeah, we have in today, the polarization and the culture wars, part of it is that many places in the US who see a changing demographic, this reality that's happening, they're not comfortable with it. It's changing the identity of the US. And one of the biggest challenges is that this large population of Mexicans, they do not assimilate as quickly and as easily as other immigrants, they keep their culture, they keep their language. And that can be comforting for some, but ultimately, if you want to succeed and do well in the US, you have to have a good working knowledge of English, you have to be able to assimilate into the larger culture. So it's a challenge. What's that? I'm sorry? You think they will vote for Trump in this election? No, overwhelmingly, they will vote for Biden. However, of course, we're talking about Mexicans, the Latino population, Cubans continue to be still more in favor of Republicans, things are changing in terms of the younger generation there. But for the most part, Mexican populations overwhelmingly, not as high as African Americans, but certainly 60, 70% will go for the Democrat candidate in general. The exception being maybe some of the long established communities, Mexicans that again, trace their origin for centuries or many, many generations, they become more assimilated over time, more conservative, ex-military, maybe entrepreneurs. So there's always, it's not overwhelming, but it's certainly a pretty significant majority. Yeah, certainly part of the melting pot to diversity and the success of the nation. And so Republicans have had a challenge and now they've often said, oh, well, they have traditional conservative values, anti-abortion, but at the end of the day, they have not succeeded at really garnering a lot of support. So they tend to be primarily Democrat voters. How do they feel about abortion? Again, for those who are deeply religious Catholic, I mean, they may have a stronger view. Ultimately, like others, most Mexicans and those are more secular and maybe that's not as powerful as you might expect it to be. Yeah, yeah, good. Well, thank you, Carlos. This has really been a great discussion and I really appreciate you suggesting it and helping us understand the relationship between the two countries and the possibilities for the future. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. See you next time soon.