 the sound and video getting through. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Minister of your time. Yeah, just call me all. Who has been communicating with you. And today our head of professor Fujiwara will introduce you to our students first. Hi, Fujiwara sensei, please. Hello, Audrey, if I may. I'd like to cut the formality, but just want to thank you in joining our workshop here for global leadership. I don't think Audrey needs any introduction. A child prodigy, a genius with digital transformation. There are so many things that she has done. But what strikes me reading her words is how liberating it is. It really makes you feel better about yourself as you are with all the limits, strength, hopes, weaknesses, fears. And whenever Audrey talks about society, it is a group of actual living people with their limits and hopes. And nonetheless, leaves a wide possibility of connecting to each other. And that, of course, is in the very true sense what civil society is supposed to be, aside from all the words that we political scientists add to that. So without further ado, let's get started. Audrey, so how should we go? We have a great number of questions from students. Yeah, there's like 51 questions I wonder how we can get around to answering them in just 30 minutes. That's like what, 20 seconds per question? So if you're OK with that, perhaps I would just share what people have already asked on Slido. And I try to answer as many as I can. Do you need a screen sharing? Or is it OK if I highlight this? Do everybody see both my screen and myself? This is good? OK, so I will not read out the entire question in the interest of time. But if you have follow-up questions, please feel free to enter either on Slido, which they will show in the latest question pot, or just raise your hands and use the voice to ask questions if that's OK with you. Right, so the first question, basically, Internet access to water or electricity is a human right. Universal broadband is the campaign promise of Dr. Tsai Ing-wen five years ago now, and we've really delivered it. So anywhere in Taiwan, if you don't have 10 megabits per second, even on the tip, the top of Taiwan, if you don't for 16 euros a month for unlimited data, it's my fault, personally my fault. People email me saying, hey, I'm in this hotel quarantine that I don't have good reception. I have no telecom access. You say it's a human right. I don't have human rights. It took me half an hour to send this email, and then two weeks after, we made sure there's a new 4G tower near that particular quarantine place. So we take that very seriously, and indeed, this is really the same question as asking, I feel democratic transition cause a gap between people who cannot read versus people who can't read. The freedom of information means nothing for people who cannot read in either braille or visual ways, right? So which is why we make sure that literacy is a human right and that we make sure it's universally included. And so the same way, digital competence need also be a universal right and the public infrastructure that needed to be invested in it is very important. So I think this is just a given end. There needs to be a lifelong education as well, and instead of literacy, which is like reading, the digital world is more like competence, which is more like writing, more like producing the media, the narrative and things like that together so that people can become active citizens. After all, that's what the internet is for, is for bi-directional, multi-directional communication. The uplink also needs to be used, and that applies to the democracy itself, which is the next question. I think the two most active groups on our national participation platform, join GOVTW, are exactly around 16, 17 WANG Group, and the second most active are 60, 70s people. And my hypothesis is that those two age groups have more time on their hands. The other age groups are more busy, but with business. But also it's quite clear that these two age groups care more about the long-term sustainability, more about how to save for the future generations, rather than withdraw from the future generation to the short-term benefits, as some people sometimes do think that way. So I think the Sunflower Movement definitely made the long-term thinking NGOs, those thinking about the long-term environmental sustainability, the human rights situation and things like that, they feel less alone, because previously they were communicating only to a small slice of the society. But suddenly because of the Sunflower and the 20 or so NGOs banding together, it became cool again to talk about these things. And then even for a very small scale NGO, now it's possible after the Sunflower for through crowdfunding, crowd sourcing, and so on for them to connect to other social innovators and social entrepreneurs. And because it become cool, it become also a core entrepreneurship project. It become a core thing for universities to encourage students to start entrepreneurship projects that take care of the human rights situation through a fair trade of cotton. It's a very recent example because that was just from the Taoyuan City's social innovation exhibition, where they show very organic environmental friendly and also very good relationship with the land and so on, a co-op produced organic cotton. And so that became a very hot topic for Taiwanese young entrepreneurs as well. And because they're quite young, literally just around 18 years old, there's no failure, right? If they start an idea and didn't match the crowdfund, didn't get a crowdfund to go, they just write a paper about it. That's their capstone project. There's no sense of failure if that you pivot like three or four times during your undergrad years with the help from the people in their 60s and 70s who have more time to spare to collaborate with you. And as of this question, I think it's a really good question. So what's the difference between idea-worth spreading and the ideas that are actually spreading? And I think the main difference is the agency that this idea give to the people who spread it. That is to say, how extensible is the idea? For example, during the Musk use public communication, we found that the jurisdictions that said, where am I to protect the elderly? That idea was spreading, didn't spread. If they say, where am I to protect the frontline health workers? Again, was spreading, didn't spread. And because this appeal to altruism, first of all, it's just for a segment of society. If somebody doesn't see a doctor or nurse, if somebody doesn't live with people who are elderly, then they don't have to think about this message at all. And even if they think about it, it becomes harder for them to extend upon it and share it to other people. So our message in our communication with this famous Shiba Inu sharing the message is that you wear a mask to protect your own face against your own unwashed hand. And a dog put a foot into its mouth to illustrate what not to do. So basically that this message spreads because it appeals to rational self-interest. It's very easy to remind each other to protect themselves from themselves but if you say, hey, Audrey, please wear a mask to show some respect for the elderly. It's very hard actually for you to say that. But wear a mask to protect yourself. That comes very naturally. So anything that enhances the social solidarity with a kind of fun meme that goes with it. Remember this Shiba Inu, right? All this enhances the virality of the message but a core issue is whether anyone spreading the message can add to the message in an organic way, whether it could go viral is depending on how much mutation it can accrue to use a epidemiologic term, how the R value of the idea could spread because of the mutations that it accrue during that. This question is interesting. How do I cultivate the courage of decision-making? I think one of the main ideas here is that with digital social innovation you can actually choose many options at once. It's just remembering that it's not you doing all these things. So when I'm sharing, for example, about the mask availability map, even though many people in Japan saw it, it's my idea. It's not my idea. It's a civic hacker in Thailand. The name is Howard Wu. He already had a map that showed the actually garbage collection schedule. And there's another civic hacker named Svindjan Chiang who already had a map that showed the PM2.5 air quality and air pollution. And so they just changed some parameters to their existing maps and they were able to show the availability of mask in nearby convenience stores and later on pharmacies. And my role, very simply put, is making sure they don't have to prepare the material, the data cleaning and so on by themselves. They don't have to scrape the websites or PDFs. We made sure that the pharmacies published the numbers every 30 seconds after they sell any copy, not copy, any batch of the mask. They just update the numbers in real time and we didn't approve the message. It's just like a distributed ledger. As soon as it's committed, it is published. And because of this idea of data pipeline and open API, I don't have to choose to make decisions thinking, oh, do I need to use the line chatbot first or do I need to build a website first? Do I need to use an app? What about people who don't have iPhones? I don't have to make those decisions because with an open API, people who care about iPhones like Siri, I can just say here's the API. Go and develop the Siri at all for that. If you want Google Assistant, do that. If you don't have a English version, go ahead and make a translation because I'm not the bottleneck in the digital social innovation. The decisions could be entirely deferred to the people who actually need that in the time and because of that, we understand that people who develop these applications are the real users of the data and so they become the costuers and this is the competence versus literacy viewpoint. If I think only I get to make the decision, I have to take care of people's literacy. But if I'm not the bottleneck, so everybody gets to make their own decisions and my role is just to make sure it's available, reliable data and effective partnership. And so the courage of decision making is to delegate away even the kind of delegations, like what you delegate away, you can even delegate away those decisions to your community and this is a very Taoist approach to governance, I'm sure. And 24, people would like to know about really something that really captured my interest, something that I want to apply to Taiwan. Well, I'm digitalminister.tw but I'm also slash like seven other board member positions in social innovation organizations worldwide. So I often say I work with Taiwan that I'm not working for Taiwan. That was just one of the jurisdictions that I work with. And one of the more exciting recent innovations appears in the Ethereum community. Vitalik Vodarin, who is co-board member in Red Hat Exchange with me, has been experimenting with this exciting voting mechanism called quadratic voting that we've already applied for our presidential hackathon to suss out the synergies between the 169 sustainable targets to much success. And then moving on, Vitalik also experimented with quadratic funding, which is a really good new model that is midway between the grants, which is one person, one vote, but a small jury panel, they can't really find things they don't understand versus crowdfunding, which is $1, one vote. But I privilege the people who have a lot of dollars to spare and cannot fund the things of broad public interest that need actually quite some investment, but doesn't have a good PR machine, right? And so these two ends of a funding for public good, mid in the middle, if we use the quadratic funding model and we're very seriously looking into it to see whether our national development fund or other investment for impact, impact investment vehicles could take some lessons from the Ethereum community in terms of quadratic funding. So that's very much worth looking into. 24 people asked, what comes after the DX? I think what's after the DX is probably EX, because ABCDE. And so what comes after the D transformation must be the E transformation and also slash a council member and executive committee member of the collective council on extended intelligence. So the E stands for extended. And extended intelligence means very simply that the machines, instead of taking over people's jobs or people's functions in the society, rather we apply machine learning exclusively on the things that enable people to collaborate better, to make participatory design possible, to make sure that there's agency and dignity in the democratic governed data coalitions. And so for example, our presidential hackathon often produces in addition to the air quality or mosque availability map, there's a map that take a page from the Japanese startup, Maimitsu, which is a visualization for nearby drinking stations that you can refill the bottles rather than buying new plastic bottles. But the Taiwanese version instead has a very Pokemon goal like gamification overlay on top of it. So you can collect new gold coins, you can redeem them to the local agricultural products by social enterprises, the national like oil company, the refilling stations, double as refilling stations. There's many cross sectoral collaborations. So it's also a regional revitalization goal that invites people to understand more in impact oriented tourism and so on using that as a local feature navigation tool. And so things like that are AI, but they are AI in the assistive way. That is to say, it doesn't replace human to human connection. Actually, it's about fostering human to human connection that wouldn't be possible before this transformation. And of course, some people here may have heard of Polis, which again is a AI project that lets people see their commonalities despite their initial difference, ideological positions and so on. So all these extended intelligence applications, I think, I like the previous imagination of digital which is about connecting machine to machines. These are the digital to the extensive, extensible intelligence direction which is about connecting human beings with human beings and human beings with non-human beings like rivers and mountains via natural personhood via their digital avatars as shown in the film Avatar and many other things as well. So that's the digital toward extended intelligence transformation direction. And so a follow up question, do you think singularity will really happen? If a singularity is near, the plurality is already here. So to me, sustainability is all about trusting the future generations are going to be smarter than us and they have not yet been born. So we might as well defer the decision to the future generations. We make sure we do not foreclose their possibilities. We do not aim for the singularity for this generation and decimate like reducing by 10% the agency for future generations. So if we make sure that all the possible directions are possible in multiple singularities, then we have a plurality and that's why I really firmly believe that the future generations need to have as much as say to the democratic process as much as possible, which is why the joint platform, as I mentioned, is now more than a quarter of the citizens initiatives are by the 12 years out, the 13 years out, the 15 years out, because they are literally the next generation. And I think plurality will happen and it will keep happening if we make this intergenerational solidarity part of our culture instead of just pointing to, you know, something agree as a good thing by 50 years out, or by me like 40 years out, and decimate the future generation's agency. This one is also interesting. In Taiwan, we basically cannot do takedown by the administration. Everybody who remembers the martial law didn't want to go back there. It's just like people who remember the 2003 SARS epidemic in Taiwan didn't want to go back to lockdown because we understand lockdown and how traumatic it was for the people in the Hoping Hospital which suffered a lockdown in 2003 and we didn't want that. And so because of that, we have to innovate to find out ways that do not result into an emergency state, a lockdown or a takedown in terms of online speech. And so the innovation, in addition to the humor over rumor, the Q-Shiba Inu and all that, we also discovered that notice and public notice is very useful. So instead of notice and takedown which actually polarizes the community because there exists people who do not want it to be taken down and if it wasn't famous, well, it will become famous after a takedown. It's called a Streisand effect. We don't do that. We don't go there. Instead, we make sure that there is a very easy way like flagging email as spun. It is a very easy way to flag incoming messages as spun or disinformation or his speech or whatever. And once you reported that to, for example, the line application work with the Taiwan government on a line dashboard that shows what are the top reported things, the messages on the line platform. And that's their CSR team. I'm just pasting it into the chat in the Google media. And you can see, for example, like today, as of now, there's like 86,000 unique messages with more than 336,000 people participating. So that's a lot of people. And so some of them are fact-checked already as false. Some of them are gray, meaning that it's still awaiting fact-checking. And there's a bar that shows its virality, like it's our value recently. So we focus on the three or so things that are getting viral but really didn't reach a lot of people and then fact-check it. For example, in 2019, before the election in November, there was a message that said, and I quote, the people in Hong Kong are recruiting 13-years-olds to murder police and they're paying $200,000 to them. And some of the young people are recruiting even younger people and they bought iPhones with it. And of course, so that's an actual crime, criminal disinformation manipulation speech that was making the rounds. But instead of taking any of that down, we just trace the photo to the Reuters photo, which is a real photo, and the Taiwan fact-check center, which is a nonprofit, not funded by the government's social sector organization, traced the original alternate caption to the Zhong Yang Zheng, Fa Wei Chang, An Jian, which is the central political and law unit of the Chinese Communist Party's Weibo account. And so instead of taking it down, we just make sure that our Facebook and other social media that sign on the anti-disinformation of court, when you share this message to this mandatory frame around it that says this message is proudly sponsored, well, not proudly, is sponsored by the Chinese Communist Party and just make sure that everybody gets educated about it and once they share it, they get into the mood of a newsroom of fact-checking, source-checking, balancing the narratives rather than us versus them. Why are the government taking it down mood, which I think the pro-social media, the pro-social side of social media is only possible when everybody see ourselves as a media worker, as a potentially a part-time journalist. So 18 people would like to ask what's the strong points of online and offline or in person? Well, I think the online is not just about this two-dimensionality. I mean, I can see you quite clearly, actually much more clear than if we have to wear a mask in face-to-face settings. So in a sense, this brings us closer, but we can't enjoy bubble tea together, right? So this is something that face-to-face setting really shines. Actually, when I work thoroughly through telecommunication through telework since 2008, 2016, before I joined the cabinets with Silicon Valley companies, they often send like Napa Valley red wine, not very good red wine, just something that they could buy on the supermarkets. And then we would just video conference, but we would drink exactly the same bottle of wine, well, the same label anyway, and share the taste about it, or when Gordon Beers opens in Palo Alto, they'll go there and have a video conference with me and I go to Gordon Beers Taipei and make sure that we order the same food and so on. So the food and the drink and the social objects that we share, that is very important, that is fundamental to our existence. And with care, of course, we can recreate some of it with a mixture of online offline experience, but if we do not design that through augmented reality or virtual reality, then we do not have the true sense of co-presence. And in this video conference, for example, most of you are in your rooms. So I don't see much beyond the rooms and all the room looks alike, right? But when I did a video conference, a similar lecture and Q&A with I think some Korean rural city, I was traveling from Taipei to Ilan and I was mounting the phone in a wide-angle camera in a car. I was sitting in the back seat and the camera was taking in everything that the rear window has to offer. And because of the 5G connection and the low latency, it feels like everybody is on the same car with me where I can't introduce the landscape, the mountains, the view and so on. And that, I think the co-presence, the existence in the same physical place is really important to get people into the feeling of co-creation together instead of just information exchange. So with some participatory design, I'm sure that we can enhance our communications and lives with the best thing about online which is unlimited connections across time zones and across jurisdictions and the offline part which is all about the food and the drinks and the beautiful landscape. So 18 people. Well, this is a really good question. How to get young citizens more motivated? In Taiwan, what works for us is this reverse mentorship idea. And when I was under 35 years old and therefore qualified as a youth, I was invited to the cabinet level by the ministry who is a portfolio Jackman Tsai at the time as a reverse mentor to her on crowdsourced agenda setting and crowdsourced lawmaking. It's very interesting because when you are a reverse mentor when people call you at the time I was called Qing Nian Gu Wen, the youth consultant, then whatever we were demonstrating it's not a protest anymore because this title calls upon us to solve the problem that we point out. We have to point out the directions in order to solve the problem that we highlight during the sunflower movement. And when I become the digital ministry in charge of youth engagement we promoted the Gu Wen, the consultant into full Zhixun Wei Yuan. So the full member like a legislator a full member of the youth advisory council so we call them cabinet counselors and that's even more duty implied in that position. And even when they're just 19 years old, 20 years old once they become a cabinet level advisory counselor they understand that it's their job to point the new directions for the country and we the older people I'm old now, right? I'm almost 40 now we the older people are the people who need to empower them so they make the directional cause and we give them the resources and power needed to make their ideas a reality. So I think this the Pygmalion effect if you expect 20 years to behave like states people then they behave like states people if you expect 20 years to behave like babies well they behave like babies and it's all implied in the position and in the culture. And finally I think we have the last question now. Yeah Facebook sells addictive products I don't think as a liquor content company I say something like a night club so something like a host or hostess bath so there is of course some selling of addictive drinks but there's also private bouncers very loud music Karaoke and I'll hold that and it's hard to have a real civic townhost their deliberation over that loud music not to mention the private bouncers that will escort you out and so that's of course part of the nightlife scene there is a existence rationality for them to exist there are nightlife requirements for people but what's important I think is for the government to recognize there's more places in city planning than the nightlife district there are places that we dedicated to the townhost the public parks the civic halls the public libraries the universities and other places of education institutions the national park is a very large place right and so all these are worth the investment into the public infrastructure and one of the things that minister of culture Chen Lijun and yours truly helped to do in 2016 was to convince our national budgeting office to consider such digital infrastructure worthy of the infrastructure budget in the infrastructure bill is a special budget previously our accounting people in the national budgeting office only consider as infrastructure something tangible something concrete like literally made of concrete otherwise everything else is considered just regular expense and not worthy of the infrastructure monica but we eventually convince them that if it's in the commons if everybody can reuse it if it serves a civic purpose then it is also digital public infrastructure so within the entire infrastructure bill there is this section called digital and only within this section the intangible stuff could qualify as public investment on digital public infrastructure and that is important because then people can go to the joint platform they when they want to relax and deliberate on something of public concern they don't have to go to the more you know shouting intoxicating part of the digital lifestyles and that is what enabled for example Dr. Lee Wenliang's message to reach the Taiwanese people in just 24 hours because that happened on PTT which is public infrastructure subsets entirely by the national governments and run by university students for 25 years now and we may show that they don't have to answer to shareholders or to advertisers is entirely a social place for part of the civic life and I'm sure that Lee Wenliang's message also reach other SNS but maybe because there's more noise than signal it did not end up in the same result as what we have seen in Taiwan and so I believe we are at time thank you for the great questions thank you very much for your precious time and we will see you again in September yep yep that we will do and until then live long and prosper bye everyone you too thank you goodbye bye bye