 host Winston Welch, and I'm delighted that you are joining us again today for this special edition of Out and About. It's a show where we explore a variety of topics, organizations, and events with the people who fuel them in our city, state, country, and world. As a disclaimer, any views or opinions expressed by me are strictly my own and not connected with any organization I may be. Joining me in the studio today, I am delighted to have Audrey Lee and also Brad Fry of Ma La Ma Moana, and we're going to talk about the topic of our show is Beyond the Playground. Let's be a little more explicit. So thank you so much for coming in and being my guest. Thanks for having us. So this, if any informed viewer will hopefully be reading the newspapers, civil beat, a little advertiser watching the news, and they've heard something about Alamuana Park, they don't maybe exactly understand what's going on. Can you tell us what is Ma La Ma Moana, how did it start, and what's your moment? Okay, I guess I'll take that one. Ma La Ma Moana is just a group of community residents that go to the Beach Park, and we're at Alamuana usually, but then it's grown into a much larger group from the community that have seen things proposed for the park that they don't really feel should go into the park. So we've been looking at certain issues, certain proposals that we feel are not in the community's best interests, and we are trying to bring it up to the City Council and the mayor. Okay, and how long has this, how long has the organization been in existence? Well, it's almost five years now. Is it five years? It's about five years, yes. And did your, did your group originate with the EIS that was put out for changes to the park or sometime around there? Yes, it was with the EISPN, the preliminary notice that came out. And when we heard about that, it was actually, I think, was the end of December that we were, well, we became aware of it. And we started to kind of voice our opinions and have discussions, and came up with a group of people that wanted to do something about it. Okay, so fast forward to today. You've had five years of sort of engagement, understanding, researching, and a lot of this stuff is kind of hidden and opaque, I think, if the ordinary citizen to try and figure out how the whole system works. But you've, you've had a crash course in sort of citizen activism. I believe so. Actually, the group has kind of changed composition in the past few years, but this past year and a half, a little bit more than year and a half now, we've, we've gotten a little bit more information about how to work with the city and with the city council and, and how we are working together. So it's become a lot more organized since the first couple and two and a half years or so. Okay, there's a learning curve in there, certainly. So Alamo on a beach park, the city has submitted its FEIS, its final environmental impact statement. And in there, there were a lot of different things, but there were basically four things that you are still taking umbrage to. And so I think that maybe we should look at that, although let's start our topic is beyond the playground. Let's start with the playground if we can. And just in the interest of time here. So let's bring up slide one so we can see what we're looking at here. So Brad, what are we looking at here? This is a slide that shows the playground with the green areas and the red areas are everything that is, that's already covered with buildings, roads, has ponds, a variety of things. And the people who want to put in the playground have said that there's 100 open areas of acres of open green space. Well, there's not really. This slide, you can see where the play, but you can also we see where the playground is being proposed for one acre. And it's actually that circle is smaller than the playground. And when questioned about the green space recently, somebody in the parks office said that there were 85 acres of green space. We think there's less than 85 acres based on this picture. Okay. And so that that image is so there's folks that want to put in a a it's called a playground. But really, I think we've heard it described as something like a Disneyland esque, which is, you know, with zip lines and splash pads. And this is not your swing sets and monkey bars. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's being called an inclusive playground. But it and one thing about this playground is its size that I want to mention on this at this particular moment. But this playground is one acre. Now a lot of people don't know what an acre is. But imagine a football field. Okay, from the five acre line to the five acre line, all width, covered with concrete of so the five yard line to the five yard line all the way almost all the way. Yes, almost all the way to zero entirely covered with concrete. That's what this that's how big this place is. Okay. And at night, currently in alum water park, all that area is covered by grass and trees. They build this playground there at night, it'll be totally empty, but it'll be covered with concrete. We think that's awful. Okay, and I think that you know, the folks that wanted there, I think very good intentions are talking about having a world class inclusive playground for children of all abilities. What's what's wrong with with with that? Well, let's see the next slide and I can I can get into that. This slide shows a picture of the playground and shows its location sitting right on top of picnic areas eight and nine. Well, there is no review of picnic areas right eight and nine, although the EIS says that it's currently not an active area of the park. These are active areas, and they are totally inclusive, totally accessible. And putting a playground there will actually take away that current accessibility and inclusivity. I think you could really also see the huge amount of space that it's taking there of the circle. It's as big as the pond. That's enormous. It's just huge. And until we'll use this this football size playground, it's size for 500 achy. How many will actually use it? It's going to be really convenient for the kind of the kids who live in condos across the street. But for the vast majority of Oahu, O'Hana, they're going to have to take a roundtrip drive of one to three hours to get to this playground. I think one thing that the folks that say they want to build it there is this is a public private partnership. It's not going to cost the city any money. It's going to be actually the way that I read it. It's actually under the control of the folks that would be building it such that they have the keys would be in charge of the city would be on the hook for paying for maintenance, but they would decide who's maintaining it or something like that. It's a little bit unclear to me. Is that about right? Yes, we understand. You make up a good point. This thing is going to be fenced. Which is right now out in Water Park is almost completely open. It's wonderful that way. Yep. And I think the thing is saying, Oh, well, this is the perfect place because it's an active zone. Yes, the park would also be good for a skating rink and maybe a baseball field and a football field and a soccer field and maybe a skateboard park. It would be great for all of those things. But the city council in its infinite wisdom over 20 years ago passed a council policy resolution 98188, which I think was pretty prescient because they realized it does. It's not about the specifics. In this case, it's it's a dog park in a in a playground. But what is the problem with adding on to this part? Well, it's taking up all that open green space. I mean, you know, once it's gone, we can't peel off that concrete pad, where we might be able to, but we probably won't. And so that space will be forever taken by that facility, a new structure and new facilities. They need to be, you know, they need to have gone through a rigorous process, whereas this one hasn't. And it's just kind of based in there. Okay. And speaking of that, so you don't think they're going to build it. And then five years later, change their mind and dig up the concrete and put back the trees and how many trees are looking at being taken out of this one? Oh, I can't say because the thing has never really been defined. Exactly where it's going to be has never been defined. Exactly what's going to be in and it has never been defined. The only information that was ever in the AIS was one paragraph and a sketch from the newspaper that says we want to pave over a football field sized area with concrete. That's our playground. So how is it that in our modern day, where we supposedly have a collaborative government system and decision making that this very important thing costing millions of dollars with obviously the city is having maintenance issues, they've been spending a lot of money in the park and done a great job greening the dead areas of grass fixing the bathrooms spent tens of millions of dollars and thus far. But they don't really have the greatest track record and maintenance for something like this, especially for something that's never ever been maintained before. And how is it that we don't know anything about this? Has the process been just here's this is what you're going to have and enjoy it? Well, I believe I can speak to the process part. You know, recently we've been getting a lot of people asking, you know, what can they do and things like that? Because they know the process isn't working with the betterment of the community. So in acknowledgement of that, the think tank, Joe sponsored by grassroots Institute. I was hosted recently by Kelly, and he had, I think it was Steve and a camp nap here on it. They were saying that, you know, business have businesses have been holding these proprietary hearings with communities, but only hearing what they want and, you know, disregarding or minimizing opposition. So this is a big reason for the apathy and for voting and also community unrest. So people feel that, you know, government doesn't really care about them. But then the government likes that because they can, you know, they feel they can do what they want to with minimal or no opposition. So all the protests going around the state now, it's kind of been being blamed upon the protesters. But actually, it has come about because the government and businesses haven't really heard enough to really hear and concretely address the concerns of the community. So, you know, we, I think we need to be more explicit in part of our title, the title of our show, this show, you know, let's be a little bit more explicit with our words and actions. If, you know, if I say, or let's say if you say, well, the playground was in the EIS. And I say, and I accept that. And I say, Oh, well, that's good. So what's the problem? You know, and then you would say, Well, I don't think there is a problem. And that would be the end of that discussion. However, on the other hand, if I knew a little bit about what was going on, and I rejected being part of that, I would say untruth or lie, but I could say, you know, I know it was added, but it wasn't evaluated, evaluated, right? And then that's a difference because being a part of the EIS, I got studied at evaluated is different from just being stuck in there with a newspaper article. But the only information that the EIS company had that was hired by the city was just that one article, one article. So did you have any opportunity to really engage with the city or the parks department on this plan? No, it was just, I think the only time that the mayor actually brought forth on his third public meeting, he had five presenters, including himself, and he did not allow for any public discussion. So he kind of put people into different groups, like people concerned with the parking, went up front and people who were concerned with anything else would go in the back and just talk to whoever was there manning the easels. And so there wasn't really time at that point for public input. By November of that year, the group Hanikako had presented to the Alamoana Kakako neighborhood board, their, you know, their plan for this wonderful playground. And, and then the Alamoana board thought, Oh, this is nice. And then kind of voted it. Okay, that's how it got sort of shuffled along. But I don't think they had a very extensive presentation either. But recently they they had a reverse on that. And what happened with the Alamoana Kakako neighborhood board? Was it this last month? Yeah, so this past month in October, we came up with a resolution draft, which we presented to that board as well as other boards around this area. And they, you know, they took a look at it, did some edits to it, and then decided to vote on it at the time because there were so many people from the community there to hear about it. And what was the gist of that resolution? Well, basically that the issues that we're bringing up today, going through the slides, the playground, the dog park, the perpendicular parking, and the standard punishment, those things, you know, need to be re looked at and reevaluate it because of So they're saying maybe let's hold off on this here. Let's take another look at it. Let's have some more public input. Yes. Just for those folks who I mentioned, Council Policy Resolution 98188. That was this resolution that said no new permanent structures should be built in this part. Exactly. Because they saw little pieces of it being nibbled away. And at the end of the day, you have a little tiny green space, but right fundamental characteristic of this park is its open space. Exactly. And so that is what we're trying to preserve here. It's not being against something. It's being or keeping the open green space. And fundamentally, at the at the end of the line that once you concretize that, it's done. And please, please understand this, we're very much in favor of inclusive playgrounds. And one of the interesting things about this is if we go to say slide for maybe when we come back for a break. Yeah, because that's an important point is that we're not against inclusive playgrounds for them and we want them all over the islands and we want them in the best places and the best location. So we're going to talk about that when we get back. But as you see time flies when you're having fun and educating folks, I am very pleased to have joining me in the studio, Audrey Lee and Brad Fry of Malama Moana. We'll be back in a minute for more of this story. Thanks to our think tech underwriters and grand tours, the Atherton Family Foundation, Carol Mon Lee and the friends of think tech, the Center for Microbial Oceanography Research and Education, collateral analytics, the Cook Foundation, Duane Kurisu, the Hawaii Council of Associations of Apartment Owners, Hawaii Energy, the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, Hawaiian Electric Company, Integrated Security Technologies, Galen Ho of BAE Systems, Kamehameha Schools, MW Group Limited, the Schindler Family Foundation, the Sydney Stern Memorial Trust, VOLO Foundation, Yuriko J. Sugimura. Thanks so much to you all. We're back. We're live. I'm Winston Welch and this is Out and About on the Think Tech Livestreaming Network series. And we're talking today with Audrey Lee and Brad Fry of Malama Moana. And we are talking about the park and being explicit with the things that are maybe beyond just the playground. So right before we went to break, Brad, you were talking about you wanted to go to our next slide. So let's just jump right back into it, which is... This show is the Kakaako Parks area, which was recently transferred, matter of fact, just on November 1st. The state parkland that Kakaako was transferred to the city with $2.25 million for repair and maintenance. Resolution 19-263, which is before the city council this Wednesday, introduced by Councilmember Kobayashi, talks about putting this playground that we've been talking about over in this Kakaako Parks area, which would be really a great location for it, because it's right next door to the Children's Discovery Center, a totally ADA-compliant facility, perfect for kids, a perfect location to put this all together. Now, there have been some problems mentioned about this area, a lot of them simply because of the state area, not a city area, and all of the problems that have mentioned can be resolved if the mayor wants to. Okay, so I think some of those things were just like, oh, it's not activated, but if you put something there that would activate it, then it's activated. Exactly. You know, putting in proper restrooms that are ADA-compliant with some adult-sized changing room, done. There's going to be, I think a couple dozen city staff hired to take care of this park as well. So, there's going to be a lot of people roving around on their, and the buggies, and taking care of things, so making sure that things are safe. And you could even put a mini police substation there if you wanted to as well. That's a good point about the police, because one of the reasons that area has a lot of crime problems is because the only police there, since the state land, have been state highway patrol, I think, or sheriff's rather. And now with the city involved, the city police will be able to patrol that area. Make a huge difference. And it's just, it's been a mishmash of jurisdictions, and the state hasn't wanted to put any money in there. It can't handle this. So, giving it over to the city, it's a huge space. It's probably, what, about 80 acres or something like that. Not sure. It's big enough. So, you could also put the dog park over there. Which would be great. Brings more citizens into the area. Okay, let's talk about the dog park right now, because that's up, and we might come back to the children's playground later, but let's make sure we cover these other things first. So, on our next slide, we've got the dog park, and what are we looking at here? Well, the dog park was one of three additions to the second draft environmental impact statement, along with the playground and sand replenishment proposal. And Alamoana Beach Park currently has signs that clearly say no animals, no dogs at the park. However, in an obscure law that we found after researching, it says that it is okay to traverse the park with a leash on the dog. That means not staying at the park to play, unleash, or swim in the water, you know. But we also see that some dog owners will pick up after their dogs, the feces, but others don't. And we've found, I mean, not me personally, but a lot of people have found and have taken pictures of feces in the sand and in other areas, even the sidewalk areas. So, we've heard from nearby condos that some of the residents actually just leave the feces in the dog walk or dog run. Just saying that, well, you know, we pay so much for maintenance, you know. Our tax, you should cover that. Yes. That's part of our nation becoming a nation of sociopaths, but that's a different matter. But as far as this goes, there's some specific things why this may not be the most suitable area there in the park. Number one, it's a fenced off structure. So, it violates the council policy resolution. Again, back to the fundamental thing that says, dog park, children's playground, soccer field, baseball field, ice rink, whatever, can't be built because of this. It's also too small, isn't it, for a recommended dog park size? Yeah. So, with the criteria that was put together by a task force of the Alamoana neighborhood, Alamoana-Kakau neighborhood board, and council member Carolful Kunaga had asked them to do this. I believe it was chairperson Ryan Tam and Ryan Bagnell that put together this task force and a report that listed criteria and apparently a list of locations, and Alamoana did not fit the criteria, but it did not get on the list of locations. Beyond being in a violation of council policy resolution 98188. Exactly. So, beyond that, it was space, close to close to the beach, non-nep parking. We got two people, cars, canals, gestions, all of it. Yes. So, a great location would be maybe Kakaako, again to Kakaako park. I think that one was on the list. Definitely on the list and another way to activate that space, you got hills, dogs love to run up hills, we need some more trees there. It is a great space and it does need activity, but there's plenty of parking for kids park or for this other one, but I think you mentioned 500 Kakes in the playground area, where's the EIS on that? How are you going to add 500 or even if they came if four kids to a car, that's another 100 cars? That's this park is Alamoana's full already. It's just saying it brings us to another issue which is going to be parking. Brad, if you can show that next slide. What is this? Well, this show is on the left. It shows the EIS drawing of the parking, which is totally unrealistic. It shows pickup trucks that are shorter than real pickup trucks. It shows a narrow travel lane. They're actually talking about narrowing the roadway there from 22 feet, I think to 20 feet. You know, when fire trucks already drive down that road and would need to drive down the road in the future, emergency vehicles would be insanely difficult and dangerous. On the right, it shows what it would really be like. What it amounts to is that aside from everything else, the EIS plans for 103 additional parking spaces in the keyhole area and the total number of additional stalls they planned for their park was 113. So they're there basically with the keyhole parking. Then for some reason they decided to widen the street and put in this perpendicular parking which adds another 181 additional stalls. So we're way over what's recommended. So beyond that it needs here from the diagram, it looks like we'd need to take out about another 12 feet. And that 12 feet from the road is filled with trees. Actually I counted them this morning. It's about 30 trees. 30 trees. So getting rid of some big trees. And the other thing is it's dangerous to back out with perpendicular parking. Because you're going against two rows of traffic. You're either going this way or this way. But either way, or you back in and out, that's another way to do it. But still it depends on who's driving and how they're parking. So it's a safety hazard and the number of stalls you said are already almost exactly the same as called for in the EIS that they're going to put in the keyhole parking. Exactly. Which is just to the eviscerate of Banyan. And you know the carrying capacity of the park has to be considered. You just can't add on an ongoing basis more and more of parking spaces. And so they really haven't studied it. Also they're talking about king tides coming up to the sidewalks now and they forecast that there will be even more sea level rise. We're talking about poor planning and a lot of budget resources to add extra parking. And what's really needed? We don't want the current administration to hold the city budget hostage with unnecessary expenses. And I saw, we had a couple things I just wanted to show them up. You guys, if you want to know anything about anything don't just rely on the news. Do some research yourself. Here's something an article from Ian Lin that came out today or yesterday which is i-l-i-n-d.com. Ian Lin says follow the money behind the controversial Alamoana playground. We've got a column here in Civil Beach. Alamoana, not the best place for a world-class playground. Alamoana opponents. We're being steamrolled. Maybe you guys are talked about in here. And another one, Alamoana playground backers are not just a group of mothers. There's other articles in here and we don't mean or wish to disparage any of the good intentions of the folks that want to put it in inclusive playground. And I think that's really important to mention. Same for dog owners. I love dogs. I can understand, oh, we need a dog park here. But when I understand the intent now of the council policy resolution this does not belong there. And I've become a convert to that even though I've got my dogs that I love. We have one more slide which was about the sand replenishment and that is a that's a whole big topic in and of itself. So I don't know that we'll have time to to look at that but let's just say that it has a lot of environmental issues and also just the way that it's done and we can come back for another show and talk about it. But I wanted to give you a chance just to say final words about whatever you want to talk about. I'd like to just conclude with this last paragraph. So you know we at Alamoana together with other community and nonprofit groups do not want to see the open green space taken away from Alamoana when new structures and facilities that can be placed in more appropriate locations. And to find out what more appropriate means this must come from an actual vetted source or criteria such as a task force and not just preferred intentions. So we'd like to work together with the community to do that. Brad any last words you want to say? Absolutely the thing is we need to work together to have good objective criteria figure out what's best for Ahu Ohana and then make it happen. Okay and for those that want to learn more about this Wednesday City Council I think it's 9 a.m. Council resolution at 10 o'clock at resolution 19-263 if you can go down and testify in public go down testify in public if you want to give your comments about it do it online today I think they need to be doing their 24 hours in advance or do both. As usual I am always inspired by my guest that I've had today and and that I have every week but I have been especially pleased to have Audrey Lum and also Brad Fry of Audrey Lee. I'm sorry Audrey Lee sorry Lee Audrey sorry Audrey Lee and Brad Fry of Malamoana. You have a website? Yes malamoana.org malamoana.org okay so you'll find out a lot more information on their educate yourselves come on out enjoy the park this is your world what you do with it so get involved I really appreciate you tuning in we welcome your feedback and comments thanks for our broadcast engineer Robert McLean our floor manager Eric Calander and J. Fiedela our executive producer who puts it all together I'll see you here every other Monday at 3 p.m. for more of Out and About on Things Next. Aloha everyone.