 Good morning, everyone. Welcome members to the eighth meeting in 2017 of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. Gender item 1 is instrument subject to affirmative procedure. No points have been raised by a legal advisory on the draft local government finance Scotland Order 2017 or the draft a carbon accounting scheme Scotland amendment regulations 2017 or or the draft international organisations immunities and privileges scotland amendment order 2017 so is the committee content with these instruments thank you agenda item 2 is instrument subject to negative procedure and the first item there is the council tax reduction scotland amendment regulations 2017 ssi 2017 number 41 these regulations make further amendments to the council tax reduction scotland regulations 2012 and the council tax reduction state pension credit scotland regulations 2012 otherwise referred to as the principal regulations the principal regulations were introduced by the Scottish government in January 2013 to reduce the council tax liability of people who have a low income following the UK government's abolition of council tax benefit from April 2013 and from April 2013 people who were previously in receipt of council tax benefit received an equivalent reduction in liability for council tax provided their circumstances remain the same to the support they would have received by way of council tax benefit it is suggested by our legal advisers that the regulations before us today raise the devolution issue for the same reasons that the committee has considered apply to the council tax reduction scotland amendment number two regulations 2016 ssi 2016 number 253 that is to say our legal advisers consider that the regulations raise a devolution issue as they may relate to matters which are reserved by section f1 social security schemes of part 2 of schedule 5 to the scotland act 1998 in other words there is a doubt that the regulations are within devolved competence it is recognised that the Scottish government takes a contrary view since september last year a new exception 10 to the social security reservation has given the Scottish Parliament powers to create new benefit schemes in areas of devolved responsibility whether requirements of the exception are satisfied including that the new scheme must be funded from the Scottish consolidated fund following the committee's guidelines on when a consolidating instrument may be useful it can also be noted that principal 2012 regulations are much in need of consolidation as this is the 11th amending instrument we might wish therefore to suggest to the Scottish government that reframing a new discrete scheme in a consolidating set of regulations could avoid the committee's concern while that scheme to comply with the requirements of exception 10 so do members have any comments or not? I've listened to what you had to say and certainly with the paperwork I'm in agreement with the Scottish government on the power that they have. I think there is some validity in some of the aspects that have been discussed regarding this exception 10 aspect but I do actually believe that the Scottish government actually do have the power. Fair enough and that has been the position that you and your colleagues have adhered to over a number of years and that's absolutely great. Anybody else get anything to say? I have some concerns I hear what Stuart is saying and I appreciate what's gone before but my concerns would be I think we've taken legal advice and not being a lawyer I would seek legal advice and I would also take legal advice on board so I think that possibly I think there is a validity question here I think it does raise a devolution issue okay well thank you that would certainly be my reading of it right well we may not agree over this as before so firstly does the committee wish to draw the regulations to the attention of the Parliament on reporting grounds if on the basis that they raise a devolution issue and we'll need a proposer so I'll propose that this regulations raise a devolution issue and then we will have a vote on that if that's if everyone's happy with that way of proceeding so can those who believe sorry so the prop I have to read in the correct wording the proposition is that the committee considers that the regulations raise a devolution issue and should be drawn to the attention of the Parliament on that basis are we agreed we're not so we'll have a division so those who believe that this raises a devolution issue raise their hands now please that's three and those who do not believe that it raises a devolution issue thank you very much well and so it motion is agreed to by a vote of three to two and and therefore we will now proceed on the basis that this the regulations do raise a devolution issue so we'll now move to the next part of this discussion and does the committee wish not was done in the foregoing to suggest to the Scottish Government that framing a new discrete scheme could avoid the committee's concern where that scheme to comply with the requirements of exception 10 and we all agreed to that right thanks very much and thirdly and finally does the committee agree to suggest to the Scottish Government that there would be a further benefit of accessibility to readers if consolidated regulations could be produced which comply with the requirements of exception 10 thank you so no points have been raised by our legal advisors and further instruments participation request procedure scotland regulations 2017 SSI 2017 number 39 or non-domestic rating unoccupied property scotland amendment regulations 2017 SSI 2017 number 43 or on the inshore fishing prohibition of fishing and fishing methods outer hebrews order 2017 SSI 2017 number 48 or on the Scottish road works register prescribed fees regulations 2017 SSI 2017 number 49 or on the sale of tobacco and nicotine vapor products by persons under 18 scotland regulations 2017 SSI 2017 number 50 or on the sale of tobacco register of tobacco retailers scotland amendments regulations 2017 SSI 2017 number 51 so as no points have been raised is the committee content with these instruments thank you agenda item 3 is instruments not subject to any parliamentary procedure and no points have been raised by our legal advisors on the community empowerment scotland act 2015 commencing number 7 order 2017 SSI 2017 number 40 so is the committee content with this instrument as well thank you now move to agenda item 4 which is the child poverty scotland bill and it's a consideration of the delegated powers within the child poverty scotland bill and the purpose of the bill is to set four statutory income targets contributing to the eradication of child poverty the bill confers one power to make subordinate legislation on the Scottish ministers section 32 of the bill provides sorry thank you section 32 of the bill provides that the Scottish ministers may by regulations change the base date mentioned for the time being in the subsection one for measuring the absolute poverty target the current base date in subsection one is the first of April 2010 section 33 provides that the power in subsection two is subject to the negative procedure so does the committee agree to ask the following questions in relation to this power section 32 provides that the Scottish ministers may by regulations change the base date mentioned for the time being in subsection one of that section currently financial year beginning first of April 2010 for the absolute poverty target so does the committee agree to ask why instead of this regulation making power section three of the bill itself could not have expressed the first of April 2010 baseline date to apply until the 31st of March 2020 and thereafter to change automatically to the first of April 2020 for the 10-year period leading to the target date of first of April 2030 also section 33 provides that the power to make regulations in section 32 is subject to the negative procedure the delegated powers memorandum indicates that the current baseline date of the first April 2010 is set to allow a 10-year period for comparison between that base year and the 2020 target which was originally set out in the 20 in the UK child poverty act 2010 it also explains that it is likely that the future baseline date will need to be changed to 2020 to reflect the move towards a target date in 2030 the memorandum indicates that it is the Scottish government's intention that the regulation making power would only be exercised once and so in light of the stated intention that the power to make regulations would be made as a consequence of a 10-year comparison between equalised net household incomes does the committee agree to ask if it would not be more appropriate that if a power to make regulations is necessary it is subject to the affirmative procedure rather than the negative procedure to ensure that the parliament can exercise an enhanced level of control over the setting of the baseline date for absolute poverty are we agreed to that many thanks agenda item 5 is the contract third party right scotland bill and it's a consideration of the delegated powers within the contract third party right scotland bill and as members will be aware our consideration of the bill today is in our capacity as the secondary committee considering the powers within the bill which differs from our role as the lead committee which looks at the policy merits of the bill the bill contains only one delegated power which is a commencement provision it is suggested that we could be content with that power so can i invite the committee to agree that it is content with the one power in the bill and to reflect that in in its stage one report as the lead committee for the bill okay thank you and finally at our next meeting on the 14th of march as well as a regular consideration of ssi's and an approach paper on the seat belts on schools transport bill we will hold our first evidence session on the contract third party rights scotland bill and on that day the scotland bill team and the scotland law commission will give evidence so that will be next week and we look forward to seeing you all at that time thank you very much for your attendance today thank you and now close the meeting