 Good morning, everyone. This is the May 20th meeting of the elementary school building committee and the we have a quite full agenda today, but one of the first things I need to do is make sure that everyone can have the committee members can see hear us and be heard. And so I will call out the names as I see them on the screen. And I want to note that we will be missing a few people today of our members today. Mupert had let us know in advance that he could not be here and Margaret Wood is not here but Bob Stevens from answer will be. He doesn't look exactly like Margaret but Bob will play Margaret's role today and I think might might not be able to join us because there was a tragic accident last night that involved high school students. So with that said, I'm going to call out on names of the committee member and please indicate whether you can hear and be heard. Sean. Yes. Paul. Yes. Ben. Yes. Yes, thank you. Allison. This is Allison. Hi Allison. Tammy. Simone. Yes. Jonathan. Here. And Alicia. Here. And Jonathan told us early that he's going to be Jonathan Salvin in print on the screen rather than in face because he's doing double do double duty. That sort of short introduction, I'd like Bob Stevens to put the agenda up for today as committee members know we have two main items. The first will be Donna and Dennis go summarizing what we've all seen and the basis of design. We're going to be talking a little bit about what the role is that and these estimates are due back. We're going to get estimates from two estimators that do back on May 31. So at our next meeting we will on June 3 we will be getting new cost estimates with quite a bit of detail. Donna will lead off with that and we're hoping that will be mainly a summary to leave most of the time for the committee to start discussion options and priorities and Jonathan and several other people sent in comments on the criteria matrix. So I've asked Bob answer to be a facilitator for that discussion. And he has the matrix where people talked about priorities in terms of what criteria are particularly important to people. So we'll have a discussion on that and then really go around the room to the extent we have a room and zoom, not making choices but really positive attributes negative any remaining questions that we have, because if you look at our schedule when we meet again on June 3, we will be receiving the new cost estimates. And I'm hoping we can schedule that if people can put it on their calendars for potentially going until 11 in the morning, because we need as much time as possible to make sure we understand the estimates and hope and potentially start filling out the matrix and one of one of the things I want to do today when we finish our discussion is suggest that everyone take the matrix out as homework assignment and start seeing whether there are some things that seem clearly better as they look across, meaning a green color or however you want to do better, some that don't look as good, and then anything you can't assess just leave blank, you know if it's things look about the same because some of our criteria don't vary much across the options, because from June 3 right now we are scheduled to meet again as a committee, not until June 13 where we have to pick a preferred option. I'm going to ask people both at the end of the meeting but also by email whether we could potentially have scheduled one more meeting between the third and the 13th which would be the week of the ninth to make sure we have enough time to have a robust discussion on reaching the preferred option because Dinesca will have to write up our rationale for what ended up being the most choice. So, so if people can be ready I will send out I want to coordinate with a few people to make sure I dates I offer work for me and others. So that's a week of June 9. If we could squeeze in at least one at a one hour meeting at that point we will have all the information we're going to have. We'll have the cost estimates will have the traffic studies and everything else. So that's an end of meeting. I'll remind this but that says a potential. Introduction Donna, I think I'm going to just turn it over to you. And then, and then we'll be back to a committee discussion. Thank you. Thank you. Good morning everyone. Just Kathy for clarification for the cost estimates we have a reconciliation meeting on May 31 we have two estimators and so we spent some time going through the estimates making sure that both estimators have the scope. There may be some tweaking modifications so just to manage and set expectations we will not have them issued on the 31st they may have to go back and modify their estimates based on our conversations so we're hoping to be able to issue them on, you know probably ended a June 1. So I just want I just want to make sure everyone understands that. I think we can jump into the basis of design we're just going to do a quick overview of what was included we appreciate everyone's comments but to follow up on staff input, we had the session that was. We had the meeting a few weeks ago. And I believe that the school department had the meeting or we scheduled the meeting during school hours, canceled all other meetings and hopes that other people that we would receive as many staff to join the discussion. We didn't have a huge turnout, but what we did in response to that was, we put up the presentation we also put up the video of the presentation and a survey to all of the staff as as another means or another way of soliciting input. We didn't get a whole lot of responses we've got nine out of. I guess the entire district. I'll just quickly summarize what we heard. Several people said that they liked the most compact three story option with the community assets or community spaces in the front. There was a lot of special ed staff who weighed in on it and they're great their advocates for their for their children. And I think that related sped as related to the concept one new school option. They were concerned about the number of spaces, or specialist, etc. But other than that, there, you know, wasn't a whole lot one one staff members still felt that we need to find another means to obtain additional input from staff. Maybe someone can help us advocate. I'm not sure. But anyway, so I just wanted to give everyone a quick update on that. And then what I'm going to do is actually turn it over to Tim if that's okay and he has the presentation. And Donna just I want to make sure I see Angelica has joined us Angelica could you just indicate that that you're here and you can be heard. Here. Okay, thank you very much. So I'm going to share my screen and we're going to do a brief summary of what was included in the basis of design with some pictures to go along with it to give a feel starting with the purpose of the estimates at this phase they are to allow us to make an informed decision or you to make an informed decision about between the alternatives. You can find the general building elements that will meet the town requirements in terms of durability performance and the educational program. But the budgets are based on a basis of design, not a design itself so materials and quantities that are identified are not final in any way, but building and the basis of design as described currently reflect MSBA projects, public school. Buildings in Massachusetts and standard of fit and finish that you would expect when we get these estimates back they will allow us to determine a preliminary construction cost for the project, which and that will allow us to develop soft costs for a total project budget. And with these numbers, we can develop an anticipated preliminary level of participation from the MSBA and the total project cost. And so just going through what was included, starting big picture and narrowing a little bit with the site. Both sites have soil modifications for the building itself to deal with the soil conditions they both include ram and aggregate peers. They both include drainage around the building at Fort River. They include drainage below the building. There is surface level stormwater management across the site. And then there are all of the site elements to deal with the program of the school. There are 75 parking spaces outdoor play spaces playground equipment by cracks, all of the elements that will allow the site to function. There are also the canopy PVs that will support the schools and the town's net zero energy goals. One of the other differences between the sites there are allowances for retaining walls at the wildwood site. The only other thing I'd like to add is some and some of the questions came up that as we haven't developed the sites because we don't have a preferred solution and haven't had we're not at that level. We are allowing for allowances or lump sums for some of the outdoor play equipment outdoor learning and and alike so so we don't have specifics what we're allowing for is adequate and appropriate based on our experience and our landscape experience. Moving into the design of the building, it'll be a steel framed building with steel stud backup construction for the exterior walls. Continuous insulation in the cavities with veneer masonry around and accent panels of composite metal or some other material. We have a thermally broken aluminum windows and curtain wall, and at this page we are estimating 23% of the walls will be windows or curtain wall with a PVC roof. And then the thermal performance of the building will be an R 25 for the walls and R 40 for the roof. For the systems of the building the basis for all the options is a ground source heat pump with air source and VRF distribution as an alternate at for the ground source it's a four pipe induction system or chill beam that will allow heating and heating at the same time as the building demands, all electric building domestic hot water kitchen. Automated to the extent that is required by the facilities department be fully sprinkled elevator all of the systems that you would expect in a 21st century school. The roof mounted PVs to augment the canopy mounted PDs to meet the energy goals of the school. Moving into the spaces that are occupied by the students and finishes in the corridors, as in most of the building you will have linoleum floor. The buildings go tiles for durability in the corridors and high traffic areas the tile will go higher. The walls above the tile will be painted GWB. Mr wall bar ceilings will generally be acoustic ceiling tiles and accents with clouds drop down and some wood looks ceilings off of the corridors the toilets will have full height ceramic tile. We have classrooms doors will be hardwood with large side lights to let walls into the corridors through your classroom ceilings will still be acoustic in every classroom there will be two sinks, and there will be storage built in for all of the elements required for the education, and then there's technology in every classroom speech reinforcement projection or smart screen. There are spaces off of the corridors project areas that allow pull out learning and individual instruction in those spaces outside of the classrooms there will be additional storage casework, veneer wood, and then also lockers for students. Some of the additional classrooms like the art and science and technology and engineering room are similar fit and finish to the classrooms. There will be additional built in storage pendant lighting that is indirect and direct which is efficient and provides even levels of light throughout the classrooms, and then attached to the art program there will be additional storage and a kiln in the cafeteria, there will be a raised platform, hardwood finished construction. An AV system, not full theater system but enough for the performances that you would expect in an elementary school and operable partition that will enclose the stage so it could be used as an additional teaching space and full service kitchen adjacent to the cafeteria with serving lines. The library will be the only space in the building with carpet. There will be built in shelving indirect lighting and ceiling accents as you would have in some of the other spaces of the building, there will also be circulation desk and speech reinforcement for some of the instruction that happens in the library. The gymnasium will have a hardwood floor as base CMU walls for durability, and then tectum panels above that, which control the acoustics in the room, and then a dividing curtain so that the gym can be used by two sections at the same time. And then all of the sports equipment. You can also collect basketball hoops, volleyball and other play equipment. So, none of the materials specified or quantities are final, but they will provide the information to the estimators to develop their estimates to the extent that they will need to for you to make your decision at this point. So, Kathy, I think that's it. Right, Tim, we're done. That is it. So, we appreciate everyone's thoughtful comments and we circulated the responses to the questions so great minds think alike. I think there are a lot of same questions so you might see some of the answers repeated some of the questions were a slightly differently but that pretty much. I guess unless anyone else has any further questions to them the ones that were asked. Maybe Kathy if that's okay we can just see if anyone has any additional questions. Absolutely so if anyone has any further questions I know a lot we posted a lot of material both the extensive basis of design that was sent out and then we forwarded every comment I got. And we got several that from non committee members public that's really been actively following it, and all of those are posted as well. So I'm looking for any hands get up and one thing I know I had asked early on as we're doing this. This is the once we preferred. This is just a beginning so I was asking you know the colors what is the furniture look like. You know exactly what and, and my understanding is, we've got cost estimates where if you switch a color if you decide something's going to a little be a different variations, all of that is built to come, and including the kinds of things I know we talked about with a, once there's more of a shell of a building that's when you can really get staff and people saying, you know, I like this better or that better none of none of that has been decided but this core, these core elements are needed to even get a decent estimate at this point. So I just was one I was like when do we do that and that's it's coming rather than coming. It is coming. Yeah. I'm thinking, I don't want to say much more on this so I don't see any hands. Angelica has her hand up Angelica. Okay, that's right. You touched on my question I just want to double check and make sure because this is, I know that some things are to come but just in terms of design and accessibility for disability concerns, like basic designs related along accessibility of toilets of you know like things that are part of the cost estimates as well that were concerns with the elementary school I just want to make sure that is still to come, or that is something that we can discuss now, because you mentioned things like speech reinforcement and things like cafeteria seating, and there's a lot of I have in terms of accessibility regarding. Yeah, sure, Angelica and thank you and again, similar to, you know, what we hear from teachers are we want some, you know, the windows that open or or heat those those are given to us. So, so as is accessibility, every space in the building will be accessible, including toilet rooms, including that's why we actually have two sinks in the classrooms is so that one can even be fully accessible and the other one can be used for deep sinks so the entire school will be accessible and into the school and the play yard so so that the whole project will be accessible. And the speech reinforcement, you know, helps with hearing impaired students and it's just for overall benefit health and benefits of staff and students. Yeah, thank you. So I have a couple of, I think more simple questions. I didn't see under slab drainage at Wildwood in your presentation, but I thought that there was under slab drainage needed still there as well is that correct. I thought I saw it in one of the things that we had gotten. There is not under slab drainage at Wildwood is included at Fort River. Based on the best advice of our geotech and civil engineers so far, and we will be collecting a lot more data. This is what we are carried as we get further into detail. We can verify that those assumptions are correct but currently we are not carrying under slab drainage at Wildwood because we do not think it is necessary. I think I had just seen it in the PDP so I just wanted to clarify that. In terms of the allowances will the allowances be indicated that they are allowances within the budget are they going to be categorized separately how are we going to know what's an allowance versus this, you know, sort of a more. They'll say lump sum, they'll say LS lump sum and and the value like, you know, playground equipment, I think we were carrying 300,000 or something like that. Yeah, okay. And then my, my last question at the moment is the so I know that you guys got a lot of ice and a whole list of questions I know that you guys had mentioned that there were other questions and comments and all that that had come in. My guess is that they came in on the day that you submitted what you had to the cost estimators. So, I guess what I'm wondering is how will those things be handled, how will they be dealt with. In my mind I think there were a couple of, you know, sort of larger ticket items and given that, you know, here we are in Amherst and that some of these things are up to very large dollar amounts that were not included how are those things going to get accounted for before the time that we have to make sort of an informed a realistically informed decision on which site. Have the school on. Yeah, so so any questions that we receive Phoebe that we did not carry or specify or we wanted to clarify with custom estimators. We've sent those along. So if someone brought something to our attention, a couple of things were typos such as we were carrying gas oil or instead of electric or hot water heater. We made those clarifications to make sure that the cost estimates reflected those. If there's a specific question that you may have that you're pointing to. Maybe you could point it out but anything in the questions that we receive from everyone. Anything that impacted costs that we missed or was an oversight we made sure the cost estimators we see. I mean, there was an addendum Tim sent an addendum and the addendum was sent to the cost estimators that's in the package. They worked actually people got them their questions pretty fast and Dinesco worked fast on the other side to incorporate anything that was either a clarification on or a piece. So just just again for point of reference when we go through the reconciliation meeting. We really do go through every section or every element and make sure that the estimators have picked up all of our comments and and clarification so it's a dialogue that also occurs during this reconciliation meeting. I don't think I'm seeing any other hands up so I'd like to turn to what I hope will be just really the committee talking to each other. And I've asked Bob Stevens to be the facilitator so I am not a chair I am just one of 13 people. And I don't have to look at hands he can he can call on hands and I think, you know, we, we asked Jonathan, if he was willing to lead off Bob is going to show the, the are matrix and Bob if you can get great. So what one of the things that was sent into us, and people were asked about is here's a matrix that we're going to be using as a tool, which of the criteria are particularly important so getting heavy weighting top priority and I just want to ask Jonathan and then I'll turn it over to Bob because I have some comments because Jonathan said he was willing to lead off on this discussion he told market he was willing to. So Bob, I'm turning it over to you, and I am now joining the crowd. Okay, thank you. Well I'll turn it right back to Jonathan I understand that Jonathan you had some recent comments and thoughts about priorities. What about your thoughts maybe the rest of the committee can then can then offer their comments. Sure. Can everyone hear me just want to make sure that I'm on my phone that I can be still we heard. Yeah, I think it worked at least I'm seeing heads nodding, Jonathan. Great. So, I thought when I was looking at the criteria this earlier this week was, you know, which, which one of these cat and many of these categories are important to demonstrate that, you know that we that this was an important issue. It was something that we were considering or, or felt impacted the design, but for a lot of them they didn't very much and so I was looking at the list from that perspective where where, where were we going to see variance. For some of them how would we assess them to some weren't straightforward to me, which is certain level I think it's fine it's just was getting trying to get me myself to think about how to think about them as it were. I think the ones that I think should be weighted more heavily and other people are going to have different opinions about this but sort of highlighted in green in that that column age or the ones that that I felt, maybe it had more weight than than others, and that helped to kind of differentiate between the, the, the four or six that we have to kind of work our way through two sites, you know, three, three types of buildings. And so with that preamble I can, I can give folks my thoughts. So, the first couple here at the top and Bob I can't see if you're scrolling. Can everybody see that clearly. Yeah, we've got a matrix Jonathan and we're seeing top up to through the equity transition so we have your first green areas. Can can you maximize it. Yeah, that better. Yes. So I'm going to go to the ones I thought might carry more weight and if folks want me to talk about some of the others I can but I think given the amount of time we have and, and the, you know, giving everybody a chance to talk. I'll just focus on those so the first one I thought was an important one was the optimizes energy efficiency. I, you know, I think there should be a little bit of variance still between the different options between, you know, new construction and renovation. This also felt like a really important one since we've got to get to net zero. But we also want to be good stewards for the town and the long term. The next one that I thought should be weighted a little bit more heavy was provides flexibility for future enrollment growth. In my head at least this was kind of both a building and potentially a site criteria. I don't necessarily have not actually, you know, thought in my own head about which ones might be more adaptable, but I think that's an important category. Then the next one was maximizes efficient utilization of the site which I guess is sort of similar to that last one in some ways. Then there's, you know, there's a number here that between that and the next one that I highlighted in green that I'm just curious about how thinking about how to assess them. And then there's some that you know, obviously all of them are going to meet like provide sufficient parking. That's that should be a prerequisite for any of the designs. Where have I missed. You missed, Bob's got, got us seeing it from the top so you have total total costs and total cost and minimize construction duration. I apologize I had scrolled it scrolled further down, but I'm doing this from my own screen but yes, obviously total product costs is an important one I think everyone would agree that that that's going to be a major consideration. And for me, minimizes construction duration is, is important. So the kids can get into the new learning space as quick as possible. And I think there'll be some variance between the various designs on that. And then, yeah. Bob, maybe can you scroll down to see if we're missing any other greens. Yeah, I think the next, the next green I think maybe we didn't talk about was minimizes student impact during construction. Yes, that that one also seemed important because in some of these, you know, kids will kids are going to be on site during the whole construction and which which ones are less impactful to the students and the educators. It seems like a differentiating point to me. And a fairly important one, despite the fact I did this backwards I think that's all of them. I think that is I think the other ones you have talked about. So, Jonathan, if that's your summary does anybody have any comments or thoughts. Agree or things to add. Angela Angelica's hands up. Can your hand goes up in the corner by her bookcase so. Okay, Angelica. Thank you so much for being here on my screen at the moment. Thanks. So I really appreciate the this your priorities and I just wanted to ask if like as you listed them they're your ordered priorities that is to say the first ones that you listed are what you would consider things to be weighed more heavily because you listed first optimizes energy efficient and then provides flexibility. And how do you think we should weigh them between these because I have listed about six different categories that are really helpful to think through. For me, I don't know that I necessarily have a have have listed them in a specific order. I was reading off my own screen here. And so I read the order that I saw them. I think, for me, all of these have more weight than than some of the others where it's either going to be harder to assess or really where there's not going to be a lot of difference. In the end, you know, if I had to pick two top ones that were important to me it would probably be that optimizes the, you know, the energy efficiency, probably costs, and then least, least disruption to the staff and students I guess that's three not to those would be my highest priorities. Again, that's kind of a personal perspective. Any other comments. And can you, Bob, can you see there are two hands up there actually three hands up Sean mine, the hands go up in the corner of the screen. Yeah, I do see them I'm just not seeing everybody at once. So, Sean then would you would you care to comment next. So I did the same thing Jonathan did and I think I'll just, I'll add to to the list that everything he stated in terms of waiting heavily I think I agree with the two that he didn't state that I felt were important as well. I don't think there's a lot of traffic, because I think that varied between the sites. It might be a differentiator and educational benefits from location adjacencies I think is also different between the site so I think all the ones Jonathan identified makes sense to me. And I would add those two. Okay. Thank you. Kathy you had comments. When I actually started to try to use this matrix. And so one of Jonathan's comments I want to just focus on for a minute. I was trying to find things that I thought would vary. So equity is an extremely important value to me, but I looked at the enrollment in the school we have two schools that are quite similar in terms of percent of low income by pox special needs kids or English language learners walkability and some of the other measures. I didn't see much variation so I ended up not having that as one of my more heavily, because when I tried to do it I wasn't getting this one's better on this this one's worse on it so that point he made about. It didn't seem to vary much. It's in really important, but it doesn't vary so wouldn't help us distinguish among them. I just wanted to make that comment and then the other one just on as people start to look at this Jonathan pointed out or someone else in comments that we have two ways of saying minimizing duration. One is that children can move in in the fall of 2026 and the other one says minimize construction duration they're basically the same. You know we're being told both new buildings we could get in by 2026. So on a couple of these I just wanted to eliminate one so because I think that's really important. I would just pick one of them and I didn't have a strong preference on which one. So I just want to make those points because when I went down them. Things I thought were relatively important. I don't think we have a good measure of them, or I didn't think they're going to vary. Yeah, so I'll stop there. Okay yeah Phoebe you have your hand up. Yeah, thank you. Um, so I am for me the outdoor space learning opportunities that kind of stuff is always heavily weighted. The cost of course is heavily weighted for me. My concern goes back to, do we have all the cost information that we're going to need by the time that we need to make a decision about these two schools. So I'm, I, you know, don't want to keep harping on that today but I'm gonna at least disruptive, I think is is really important because we have kids and staff and you know everybody needs to be in what we have existing while this is going on. And because I have, you know, minor knowledge of construction it is hugely hugely disruptive in general and we're talking about, you know, within yards of where our kids are going to be in school The, the things that I didn't see on here and I don't know one of the big things that I somehow got lost because I know Kathy and you and I talked about it when we were going through this, you know, a month or whatever ago has to do with the future use of the building that isn't that is not going to be chosen. So we had talked about it not as a, you know, sort of we had added it down to the bottom because I think that especially right now, I'm seeing more conversation about that public comment coming in about that as a decision making factor. So I think that that's something that we at least have to add somewhere along the line. I'm hearing conversations that maybe we need to have, or that we do need to have just a little bit as a committee. And so I think that we, I think that that needs to make it in here somewhere. You know, maybe it's not going to be a primary measure that we use to decide between one building or another, or one location or another. But it's something that the, that the general, you know, community is talking about and therefore we need to be having this conversation as well. We have to do this all above board and out in the open. So I want to add that I also didn't see anywhere about, you know, maybe it is in here and I just kind of glazed over it but the access to the outside how people get from in the building to out of the building the number of exits and entrances and maybe that's because it's going to be the same but I'd like a little clarity on that. Okay. Bob, I just want to reason. There is a criteria, Phoebe on easy access the outside so it's listed. It hasn't been an optimizing connection to the out of doors that may not be worded in the way you're talking about I just want to say there is one like that. Okay. Kathy, I don't know if it's appropriate just to answer some of Phoebe's questions now, as it relates to that as well or we want to just table it all. What are we. I think you should answer them. Yeah, go for it. All right, great. So, two things on costs. Again, we don't have a design and so we actually, and Bob's here and Margaret would also probably say that the level of detail that we have presented at this phase of the project is actually quite more than we would normally give at this point we don't have a design so we're comfortable with the site. And we understand site carries a lot of weight right a lot of costs so so we dug deep no pun intended on the site and we feel comfortable with the site requirements for for either site for the buildings the building itself is you know again, what we typically provide not just us but for mass cake public K 12 buildings so the nuances are going to be slight as we start moving forward as it relates to finishes and materials and, you know, we are meeting your net zero requirements so we're confident there that there's not going to be any surprises. So, so the cost is the cost this is what what we have to work with now. The only caveat I say to all of this if anyone is reading the news the cluster constructions going through the roof so we're going to do our best to forecast what the market is going to bring and there's no guarantees on how we can manage that but these are based on all the information that we currently have, as far as access to the outdoors that really comes with the final solution, but the design isn't complete so renovation addition is going to have different accesses to the outdoors than a new construction, but will will continue to work with the committee as we actually start designing the project. I hope that helps. Okay. Can we move on to some other comments. Yes. Oh, I think you had your hand up. Do. So, I was, I had some of the same questions that Phoebe had so that's why I was hoping to get the have done it address some so thank you for doing that. I have a few thoughts on this right this moment in time. So I think first off, we as a committee are going to have to be prepared to make some decisions with imperfect information is just at the stage of the project where we are. We're not going to have full and complete information about every item so I think that's we're just going to have to sort of be prepared for that. I think that when I look at this matrix it seems like a lot of the items are going to be applicable applicable to both schools, you know, in terms of both locations are just going to be there'll be minor differences and when I look at the decision making on this we are looking at a 50 year decision about what is in the best interest of the town for the next 50 years. And that is that's the biggest is when the biggest thing says Wayne for me is that what is the best interest was best location for the school for the town for the next 50 years. The number one component of that for me with my head on his town manager is cost. I think we're all identifying cost as being a driver in this and it's going to get worse. And we're going to have to make hard decisions along the way so costs a very high level of, of, of value for me. And I think it's, you know, we there's so many unknowns with cost so we have to have that from my perspective, first and foremost, again with my, I don't look at the educational pieces of it because that's not my area of expertise we do have educators on the field who will bring that perspective. My other perspective is about traffic and the impact on traffic and adjacent roads and what it does to our traffic patterns in town, which, you know, as we look at this, that's a high value one for me. And also is a lot sort of along the same word, long lines I think about walkability. How many students are served by walking to school I think part of our whole goal is to create great pathways for people to get to school by walking and whichever site maximizes the use of walking I think would be a high value for a higher, not the highest value but always the highest for me but that that's an important value for me because I think just down the road I think the more people we can have walking to school the better off we are in terms of everything the environment health everything. You know I hadn't really, you know, I was, I hadn't really factored in future use of the site and I think you know I think maybe you're right that that is becoming a conversation so I don't know how to factor that in. We should have that conversation about, should that be a factor or not, because that is once the site is what the other site is done with it goes to the town council did decide basically what to do with it so. I'm not sure how to factor that in for our discussion purposes, but I think it is something that the public is interested in talking about or thinking about so I think there's some value to that. And, and then the other thing is the that I don't know exactly how to value so much as the adjacencies I forget where that is on the on the chart. The values of adjacencies versus having a separate building those are that's the sort of biggest difference between the two, one is adjacent to an educational complex and one is not. And is how much value is there to this campus model versus not so those are the types of things I'm thinking about, I think a lot of the other ones and you know I energy efficiency is obviously a high priority but I feel like whichever site we choose we're going to hit that. You know that that's why I think about some of these criteria. You know, we hope that the design is going to have ample outdoor learning opportunities that there's going to be access to outdoors that there's going to be light that both designs are going to make those priorities but that, you know in terms of shoot right now we're trying to decide which is the right site for us to have this building that's going to be there for the next 50 years. That's the type of this is this is where my thinking is at this moment in time I think I hit everything for my notes. Thank you. Any follow up comments to Paul's thoughts. I think we've gotten pretty good cross section of feedback on Jonathan's. Jonathan's comments so I would propose to move on to another topic, if we can agree on that. And that would be some discussion about add rental versus new. Kathy would this be something you'd like to jump in on. Sure, I can. And I'm going to try to do it in the context of what we've been talking about as priorities. I've been. Actually, I think I go to sleep with us every night and I wake up in the middle of the night. Keep thinking because I think we have difficult choices. So an add reno. I think we have quite a good design, you know, in terms of what it could look like. And the preliminary cost estimates that we received indicated it would be somewhat less. And when I say somewhat, you know, few million we're in the really high millions. If it was done as CM at risk, but the new building would be less expensive or about the same if we use the other method which we can with new. I mean, how long would it take to get open. It's clearly, it's compared to new, we're going to wait longer. So that gets a less favorable to me, I mean we just would, it's not going to open in 2026. It's much more disruptive. I think, regardless of which site we pick, because we're trying to take part of the building apart while building a new part to it so whatever we think about building next to the building it feels more disruptive. Additionally less energy efficient. Paul, you know when you were saying you know we want it to be energy efficient but at least the initial estimates we got. It's not a lot worse. It's worse because we've got that big flat building it uses this footprint is not minimize. And there's a lot more walking for the kids and the teachers within the building to and and you can't as easily. It's a fall off community space where the library is. So, so it seems to me to have some deficits at what whichever site and then when I looked at it on the sites. It fits really well on the Wildwood site. I mean to kind of nestles right into the Wildwood site and I think may avoid the need to build into the hill. I look at it on the Fort Rivers site, however, and I was looking at the cost basis of costs. All the things that the design and engineers have done to avoid the water problems at Fort River by raising the new building they raise the foundation they do all sorts of things with the all the landfill around it to have the water run off the hill, make a hill, make a slope. They're going to be with the Renault part and they're going to go deeply underneath it to try to to address water but that means the two buildings one will be a bit higher than the other. And I think it's just the effort to do all that doesn't seem worth it and I, I'm a lay person but I worry about the long term risk of the building that's still sitting on the ground that wasn't lifted by this extra foot of dirt. I don't think Adreno is riskier. When I look at Fort River, but I didn't have the same thought so I just, that's me running down Adreno at the two sites. All right, what else any I don't see any hands up. Okay, Angelica Angelica has her hand up. Yep, good. Yeah, I wanted to say I agreed with Kathy some evaluations of Adreno I had the same thoughts about my concern with the riskier nature of an Adreno versus a new construction. And I just wanted to add another concern that I had was about disruption and particularly disruption and the length of construction for our children with special needs, who are already very sensitive to disruptions already both sensory and in the sense of having to move from familiar, you know, environments to like constantly be shifted around from environment to environment and that's why I thought, new is also going to be able to maximize one of the things that I weigh more heavily which is the least amount of disruption, and the duration for completion. So, for me then new construction weights more heavily in that way. Okay, thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Kathy and Angelica and their comments. You know, not just to avoid repeating their comments. You know, I think, if we're thinking about a 50 year building and assuming that the next round of costs don't, you know, reflected greater difference between add, you know, addition and renovation versus new construction I tend to, to support a new construction over renovation. Okay, I don't see any hands so maybe we can just keep going around the room I'll kind of go in alphabetical order. Paul, any thoughts. I just want to clarify, are we making a decision about add rental versus new construction, are we trying to get that into a decision point at this point in time or. I think it's an opportunity to provide comments and thoughts. Okay. So I agree with what everybody else said. Okay, Simone. I agree with what everyone else said. I think the, the new building would be cheaper would be faster and least disruptive. Okay, thank you, Alison. I agree with what has been said. Ben. I don't disagree with what I've heard so far I mean if the, if the add rental option were half the cost of new construction I think there's some potential tradeoffs but yeah I don't. In terms of like you know disrupting learning time these sorts of things in the in the span of construction right like the timeline. I think the new option is probably the best options. I concur. Okay, thank you, Sean. I think I said, but maybe Tim can just confirm it. I can't remember if add Renault met the town's UI goals I remember there was a chart that we looked at the head different UI goals and some were able to hit those goals better than others. Maybe it's not the goals I'm thinking of maybe it's the, the measure that we needed to hit in order to get the incentives. I don't know if it was from ever source but there was a baseline we had a hit to get certain incentives. And I know some of the options didn't hit that baseline. Tim, can you refresh my memory what I'm what I was thinking of. Sure, there is a slight difference between new construction and renovation addition in terms of the UI that we feel will be able to hit and as projected now. So add is doesn't perform well by a marginal amount but the difference between Renault add and new construction as not as large as some of the other choices that will have to be made for example ground source first air source. Okay, so that's the biggest difference in the options is there. Okay, thank you. Okay, Phoebe. Um, so I, um, I'm, I'm feeling like I don't know necessarily enough about what our plan for add Renault would be. I don't think we've talked about it a lot I mean I see that there are some benefits there's, you know, maybe more area to put PV on the roof those kinds of things. However, does that overshadow all of the other concerns that everybody else has raised I don't know the answer to that and I don't know that without more of a concrete plan of how this would happen in place. I can really say one way or the other my my gut says, you know, new is probably the way to go. However, again, I don't know that everything's been explored fully. I do, I think I'm with Angelica on the disruption piece. That is huge. I have a kiddo who would have he's, you know, not going to be affected by this but who if he had been at the time. This would have been a huge, huge deal for him so that I think is very big and I think that if, if the general consensus is that this would be more disruptive to our to our kiddos to our students. I think that sort of would be my deciding factor. Okay, excellent thank you. Tammy thoughts. Okay, everything I'm thinking is reflective of what's been said in particular, the least disruptive to student learning in light of COVID and time lost already. I would hate to put any, anything else in jeopardy of student learning in terms of student learning. Okay. And Alicia, if you're in the room. Yes. So I also am echoing similar things that we've heard from everyone else. I would like to also strongly emphasis the disruption for our students, especially students with special needs or other learning accommodations that are needed but just any student. I think being in a building that's being worked on is going to be a huge distraction and disruption for the learning process. But I, but I do also agree that I, I feel like if I had to make a decision right now I would say new also in terms of the long term investment for our community and if this is going to be the building for a very long time that's going to house a majority of students that I wanted to be new long lasting and not that we're going to run into any issues. But I also feel like I, I'm missing some pieces of information to feel very confident in that, like firm in that decision right now. And one of those would be the cost estimate as well, but I but I am more heavily leaning towards the new construction. Okay. I think everybody's had a chance to comment. The job and weigh in. Yes, you did. Yeah, I'm just keeping notes Paul is as names went by here. Okay. I think we've gotten some input there from everybody so I would propose to move on to another. I'm sorry Bob. He has her hand up. Oh Phoebe I'm sorry. Ben and Phoebe okay Phoebe. So I want to, it's come up a couple of times just in the last little bit this is going to sort of span the last two things we talked about. I think that Paul you brought up today. The idea of the fact that you know this building is going to be sort of what we have for the next 50 years kind of thing. And I think that's an important point I think that we really need to think more about that as we go through the matrix and add reno and all of those kinds of things two and three story all of that. Because there, there are pieces also that kind of go back to the future planning not just of the building but also of the town. For instance, you know, if we're talking about, like you had mentioned walkability that kind of thing. What are we looking at in terms of new developments possibly going in that would make, you know, future planning different that would make walkability different so I think that we have to also look at the longevity of this building and how things. We have to look more than we have been at how that longevity will impact the community around each of these, each of these sites. You know, is there more more opportunity for community buildup or developments around Fort River, and therefore that sort of makes the school closer to where things will be for the next 50 years or is it more around Wildwood that kind of stuff. I don't understand that well but I hope everybody understands what I meant. Okay, then it's Ben's turn. So, so I just had like a small point I realized it actually doesn't change my opinion on the add reno option but I just wanted to point out that the abatement is also a factor like these buildings were built at a time where hazardous materials were not necessarily known to be hazardous. Otherwise that that actually affects you know which which site would be more preferable if add reno were the option one site would require considerably more abatement than the other so I just wanted to put that out there. Ben, could you just say which site needs more remind us. It would be it'd be wildwood. Okay. I'm waiting to see if there's any more hands. I don't see any. So I propose me move on to the next topic, which would be thoughts on the two sites. Paul starts already touch on this but would anybody volunteer to jump in and provide comments to start comments about the about the sites and again it's not to decide on a site it's just to talk about, you know, and discuss positives and negatives. Would anybody volunteer or should I go around the room. I'll try to prime the pump by starting. I wanted to go last but I think. First I want to say is I actually haven't decided on which side I prefer. And I'm going to try to talk a little bit through what I see as advantages and then concerns or less advantage. You know, toward what Phoebe was saying, she's not quite ready to decide yet I just want to point out to everybody we do have to decide. So, you know where. So this part of this process is weighing the pluses and minuses and if, if that starts to be something just has more pluses that ends up emerging. I do it. One thing I think we're lucky about Namrs is we've got two trip terrific sites to choose from. Not everybody has that it would be a lot easier. One just was no way I want to school there. And Dinesco has assured us that they can build on both for the type of building that we want that is achieving education goals energy efficient offsets energy. With our energy efficiency, I don't think we should look side of that this new building, and even the ad reno are going to save more than $250,000 of year and utility costs. I mean that's at least that much money compared to the current building so there's an operating costs. So I'll just go through the to the way I'm thinking about that. Wildwood to me is totally beautiful location, the way it's nestled against the hill with walking trails to middle and high school. It's got access. It doesn't own the fields but it's got access to the middle school fields it's adjacent to town owned conservation land. And it's adjacent to that a head start program. You know I don't know to what extent they ever interact. At least the initial estimates cost estimates said it would be less expensive to build new there but we don't have that updated. I don't think but we don't have good data on it more children currently live within distances able to walk and more do walk and PB's point that we there is future development in both sites and actually UMass is reopening up 120 family things that were most likely have children since it's required that they have kids to be in them. I don't see much difference I was looking on equity, a very high percentage of low income and disadvantage are in Wildwood, high African American special needs. So again they're not that much different. It's near a bus stop. It would be, I'm a North Amherst resident it's the only elementary school in North Amherst, although it's not that far from the center of town so it's a shade of it's on a hill, and I keep thinking of water and so the drainage issues they're there but you can drain downhill more easily than you can drain on a flat surface. It's not near wetlands or on wetlands or rare species. We have to with the other site, go through concom, and we're going to have to get permits I think we'll be fine, but that's one less step in the regulatory process. What's favorable about Wildwood, it's pretty clear the first thing that jumps out at you a lot less land. So we have less space to decide exactly where the school goes. There's less space for the construction equipment when it comes on site, there's less space for thinking about queuing and redesign of the way cars and buses go in and out. We would have the issue. We would have the issue at Wildwood potentially of talking to the middle school about using that lower field is geothermal although we don't think it's an issue it's one step forward. And there are traffic concerns although when I get to the wall. There's a traffic concern at the intersection at strong and strong and he's pleasant but those both look solvable to me. Potential solutions they just cost. So I'll jump to Fort River. For me the main issues on Fort, on Fort River because of its strong positives or water and traffic favorable is the opposite of Wildwood, it's big acreage, it really allows a lot of space for thinking about how you do the flow of traffic on the site, where there's a lot of geothermal wells staging for construction. It's right next to community fields as long as we include it in the improvement packets. Lots of playing fields, it's near a bus stop both of them are near a bus stop. And if we don't choose it. I don't think the building is salvageable. So that is weighing on my what will we do with that building. You can't just move into it. What's favorable to me is water and water tables and Tim and Donna and everyone keeps telling me don't worry about that we can fix it we can build on it. I, I worry about long term rainfalls, they seem to be going up. Do I really know where climate change it's not the flood, it's the flood, the low area and then traffic. I'm not sure we can fix the traffic problem at Fort River, it's an F at the intersection, and we can do a light there. But it doesn't do much to fix it. We can't move the driveway, because there's a sewer pump there. We can't easily even widen the street we were told that that's a historic piece of green across the street, federal and state. So I'm not sure we can fix the trip so we would have to live with the traffic problem I'm not saying it's insurmountable, and I'll stop. Those are just my. It makes it more difficult to walk to school by the way, the walking, because the intersections are so scary. You may, maybe parents can walk with their children to get across those intersections. So that's just me trying to think through the. And as I said, I, I don't come out with a therefore I come out without I've got a choice. And I think, I think both are actually good choices. Okay, thank you Kathy I see Angelica's hand up. I think I have less of a list like that and more of some concerns that really stand up for me I think for one of the biggest concerns for me that stand out between the two sides that I just want to generate a discussion is about traffic flows and to hear from from others more about that concern because I have children in both schools currently. And I know there's just a qualitative difference between dropping off my daughter at Fort River and then dropping off my son at Wildwood. And that's a big concern, particularly if we are dealing with the issue of growth, and also in terms of walking and also in terms for, you know, residents in that area, the amount of traffic that that will increase because that's already significant so that's one issue I was interested to hear from Kathy about the issue about the salvage ability of buildings and I want to hear more about that because I know that one of the concerns about community access is not just access of the new building but what will happen to that existing building. And you mentioned that salvage ability but also been mentioned about abatement at Wildwood, which kind of complicates my choice making so I'll just raise those two issues right now, I have others. Okay, Phoebe. What stands up for me at the very top is the outdoor space whether that's outdoor learning whether that's play space whether it's us having the opportunity to ensure that the town of Amherst doesn't lose access to the fields that are available at Fort River. As well the middle school has some fields that may be used for Wildwood children play it they're not as easily accessible for all for everyone. As those fields at Fort River are my mind goes to you know still coming off of a very difficult couple of years with coven. The ability to have more space that we can easily shift to if needed for outdoors seems to be huge. I don't think that I don't know that we can say with certainty we're not going to encounter another pandemic over the next 50 or so years. And so to have places that we can shift to a little bit easier is sort of at the top of my mind. I think that for me really hearing from people about what the future use is going to look like of these buildings is going to be big. The reason being, you know, it may make sense to have, you know, if we can get a community center or BIPOC community center or something like that. In one of these buildings, it may make sense to have closer proximity to the middle school and the high school. And that obviously leans towards that, you know, us building a school on Fort River and and leaving that leaving Wildwood open for that. Traffic does have an impact but my, my big push in cost of course is always what, what is that going to look like if we're building around about if we have to do a second carb cut or I think that that I think we can't I think that came up. You know, and I want to also say that we're going to have to deal with traffic impacts down on southeast anyway regardless of where we build the school, because there will still be if we're busing all the kids to one side or another. There is still going to be a significant increase in traffic on that street anyway. So that to me is not a sort of deciding factor one way or another. I think, oh man I have so many things. Let me leave it at that and I may raise my hand and want to come back. Okay, Sean you're up next. Thank you. In terms of the usability of the building that we don't select. You know probably best if Rupert or Mike or Ben way in on that but my recollection from the capital plan is that either buildings going to require a pretty large capital investment if we wanted to continue into the future. I believe both billions have aging roofs aging HVAC systems aging electrical systems and major accessibility improvements if we were to use it for you know whatever the different ideas that have been proposed. So just keep that in mind that that's a large cost if that's the decision that the council decides to make. And then in terms of the two sites. The thing I really like about the Wildwood site is the campus model I know that was brought up earlier. I live in Belcher town they have a campus model. I see the benefits every day where older siblings can help pick up their younger siblings or walk them to school or go pick them up after school. It builds a nice community around that area and I know we're looking to invest in that area we're looking at improvements to the track and field we're looking at improvements to war memorial. We've got the middle school pool there. So to me, with the investments we're looking to make in that area to have that campus model centered around that area would be really beneficial to the community. Okay, thanks Sean. Mike I see you join the meeting. I did I apologize that other things got in the way this morning. I was actually just going to ask. I think I know where we are in terms of what we're discussing but before I jump in with comments, I wondered if someone could just share where we are specifically because I do have thoughts based on the last couple comments but I, you know, I want to make sure that I'm understanding where we are processing. Well, at least at the moment we had talked about the decision making the matrix. And then we went on to asking the committee to share thoughts about add Renault versus new. And everybody commented on that and now we're talking about thoughts on sites and again just kind of trying to get input not making a decision at this point but trying to get input. I see there's two other hands up so I do have input to share but I'll wait till after Phoebe and Alicia way in and I'll jump in at that point. Thank you. Okay, then Alicia it's your turn. So, a lot of what I had to say has already been sent said already because I think we're mostly just stating facts that we know about each and why that matters more to us so I agree with everything that's been said but for me they way a little bit differently. And I'd say that something that's really important to me is the outdoor space and the playing space for children, which I also think also think makes the building the possible future building more accessible or able to accommodate different learning styles different learning abilities and so just having a lot more physical space on the site and outdoors. I'm also really heavily thinking about the pandemic and the possibility of future pandemics, specifically because my children and I did just have covered last week. And so that's like very heavily on my mind how that can be accommodated and how to sort of be ahead of that in the future because again this is a long term investment in our community that's going to be around for a very long time and we can't predict what type of trends will even see, because we're still honestly in the midst of this current pandemic. That so that's one factor that's weighing very heavily for me. And then some other things that have been said that I've been thinking about traffic is one of them traffic is terrible. I had children at Fort River and the drop off was a little bit difficult but they have an entrance and an exit. And so I worry about having double the amount of people and families going into Wildwood with one entrance and what that will look like. And our inability to have additional parking spaces are just there's going to be a lot more traffic in and out there. And so I worry what that will look like with double the amount of people coming in and coming out. And then the other factor is walkability. I'm not so sure I consider honestly either of them to be quite walkable like to me Wildwood is not very walkable. I previously lived in North Village and my children went to Wildwood and that is way too far to walk like that's not walkable. And that's where a lot of the, I mean, maybe from Village Park and Olympia Oaks but I'm not sure how walkable that is. And Fort River also slightly not walkable but they are getting ready to build the affordable housing right across the street. There's a lot of buildings and farms which is also right across the street and Colonial Village which is right around the corner. There's a lot of dangerous intersections anywhere so I think it will depend on what you're personally okay with for your kids as a parent. And the other thing that I'm thinking about in terms of the campus model is it doesn't really have a strong a pull for me one because then Crocker Farm is just completely left out of the mix and they're going to have a huge population of our elementary school students still going to school. And so I worry about how that will affect the kids that will be all the way in the corner and everyone else is congregated together. Also, my kids in elementary school. I have all my kids in elementary school my oldest will move into middle school and I'll have elementary school kids but I don't really foresee them interacting in a school setting like across like age groups and stuff like that so I don't know that I don't have a full idea doesn't have as much pull for me. I also think about it more in terms of the use of the building that we don't use and why that makes Wildwood actually a better contender for any other option besides school like any other services that we would be able to access from the community or to the youth that high schoolers and middle schoolers might want to access, or there's a, there's a early child care center across the street. More early child care centers stuff like that. So those are like all of the things that I'm thinking but I also like Kathy don't like I, I mean I think Fort River looks more favorable but I also still think that I, I would like I wish I had more time and more information. Thank you. Okay. Phoebe you have some follow up comments. I do. So I don't, I think that I want to stress again very heavily the destruction of the construction. It's not just the actual physical building going up. But it's all of the construction vehicles, it's the construction workers, I mean it's all of that and that is hugely disruptive and on a larger site. It becomes a little bit less disruptive to have a separate entrance and exit, you know, maybe we can manage the construction a little bit better than on Fort River than if we were on Wildwood. I think on site traffic so not even, you know, sort of, I already mentioned getting to the schools but on site traffic I think having the ability to have the separate entrance exit is going to be very helpful when we're talking about an increase in buses and increase in parent drop off all of those sorts of things. I think looking at the proximity of parking lots to play areas in the future is is also going to be something that we should, we should really pay attention to and sort of would be better at Fort River because of the because of the layout because of the impacts all of that. And I think that having everything sort of contained on the site leads toward to Fort River being a better option in terms of the geothermal wells all of that. I understand that we can, you know, we, we, there's a lot of sway or maybe it's easy to come up with a plan with the regional school committee. We recognize that a lot can change in 50 years. So in terms of looking at the future I think if everything is contained on its own site. One that you know the town of Amherst ultimately has has that control over I think it's just a better option. Thank you. Okay, Allison we'd like to comment next. Yeah, I have to write. I personally just for my own selfish reasons I prefer the River site because I don't want to deal with the construction here at Wildwood, since that will be impacting my life. But in terms of what I think would be beneficial for children at this point in time I do think the Wildwood site, a campus model would be nice and I also think that that would be an interesting setting. You know, if I have a safety situation here, I can understand how to manage it better because of the minimal traffic that we have to deal with. We have this very nice contained way of how the hill is and how you have the other campuses where there's a child who's being unsafe they don't have very far that they can go that there's not a person that we can get to help that child. So I think the River with the, with the expansive land and the traffic the way it is it just feels to me like it would be harder, but that's just how I feel now. Okay. Mike that leaves you with a hand up. Yeah, so I mean I think, I think like some other people said, still weighing options. The, the revised layout over the last couple of weeks at Wildwood is maybe feel more optimistic about the green space there and the access to that. So thank you to our tech team. In terms of Fort River I feel really good. Thanks to the architecture team about the buildability of the site you know I think there've been lots of concerns expressed about that. I'm not a geotech expert but I trust the folks on our team to give us accurate information if they say they can build there. I'm on board with the capacity to build there. I think that the two things I'd want to say about the Fort River site. One is that I think I agree with the comments about there is more green space and more usable green space is flat. I also want to stress that green space needs to be improved having more green space that puddles when it, when it sprinkles is not particularly helpful green space so I think if we're serious saying that we want to have more green space and we want to use the Fort River site. There's going to need to be an investment as the architects kind of originally designed in improving the fields so that they're accessible this even when it rains. I don't want to say that they're accessible because they're not right now, right and that's been a longstanding thing from when I was a teacher there, 15 years ago, they weren't and things haven't improved in terms of how much rain we get in Massachusetts, nor in terms of the site issue so you know I think for folks advocating on that realm I hope they also advocate for the financial investment to improve the fields there because I think if we're talking about green space we're talking green space and you know I think that the thing that gets sort of left out and I wasn't in the Hawthorne property which is adjacent to Fort River, adjacent to Wildwood has a lot of potential for additional green space for trails for outdoor education so I think in terms of direct accessibility the Fort Riverside definitely has more green flat land. But that green flat land needs to be usable and to be usable it's going to need a significant financial investment. And I think short changing that financial investment and saying that we have additional green spaces is inconsistent with how I view the situation. I think the other thing I want to share about Fort River is the traffic. I know what an F is right I was a teacher, I know what an F rated what that means. And I think for, for me, whether the schools there or Wildemakes a huge difference because yes that'll always be a busy intersection, but it won't be a busy intersection if we don't build there that will have cars and buses and vans leaving and coming every day. And to me, there needs to be a similar investment at Fort River in figuring out a better way to do traffic and that that may involve, you know, really changing the land layout, it could. I'm not an expert but something would have to shift for us for me to feel better about 575 students because it's one thing to drive through that intersection on your way to work on your way to drop off kids. I'm not an expert to drive through that intersection. While there's buses and bands and cars all leaving or dropping off with kids so you know that I'm not a traffic expert. I know a C is better than enough. Right. And, you know, so those are the things that weigh on me about Fort River I'm not opposed to it philosophically. I have no vested interest in being one place to the other I'm actually probably, I think I said this a little while ago I'm probably more flexible than most on this question, but the impact of this in the improvement of the fields and improvement of the traffic is something that to me feel like non negotiables if we're going to go down the Fort River road. That's not a like a straw argument or a false argument like those conditions can be resolved. I see a lot of upside but they need to be resolved and there's going to have to be a financial investment to resolve them. Thank you. Okay, Tammy. I mean, obviously we have issues today. That's why I'm in a hallway in the office. I guess I just want to just agree to some of what's already been said already as it relates to the traffic. I mean, I leave here sometimes as late as 630 at night and I still have issues getting out. Yeah, I think, and I've also done crosswalks duty and the level of traffic and how fast people drive and you know I think we can all agree that there's a lot more destructive driving these things. All of those things have me really concerned and I don't know if and how the town will resolve those issues if the site of Fort River is chosen. And it sounds like there are issues beyond it makes it less feasible to get the app to to a higher grade. When I think about the greenery I would appreciate that but again, having been out in the field both during the winter and in the spring those fields are just can be really dangerous at times especially because the high level of ice and the amount of water that kids end up getting kids end up getting soaked. And so those are, that's, that's real. And finally, also being from Belcher town, I do like the campus feel they think that there's a lot to be said for that. So, those are my comments. Thank you. Thank you. Paul you have some comments. I do. And I would like to hear there's a couple things I'd like to hear from people on maybe not at this meeting, but one is the, if there are operational efficiencies, or is it in terms of staffing, you know, a contiguous site versus a separate site. And also Angelica you had mentioned about your to you have you have direct experience dropping off kids I'm you and I didn't know what that with that meant so if you could expand on that I would really appreciate that. Phoebe made a good point about the lay down area I mean the sort of construction area having a lot more space makes it a lot more easier to, you know, at Fort River, you can space things out so lay down area. But as I think about these things I sort of think sort of short term like what's the one two year impact, and then what's the 48 year impact before looking at 5850 years. I really would like to explore a little bit more is two things actually well one thing in particular is, is, I think walk again I'm sort of settling more on walkability and it would be helpful to me if the two leaders of the two schools. You probably know what family what children walk to school and how many there are in each of your and that's probably a kind of change dramatically there will be additional housing adjacent to Fort River. But you probably know, there's X number of kids who walk to school and what I would be interested to know is, because if wherever whichever building we don't use those kids, those people will now not walk to school. I'd like to know if is there a way to contact or talk to those parents who have parents and guardians who have children who are walking to school and what, what it would mean to them that would be because that is going to be something and if those people don't live there at the. They, you know, kids grow up they move or something they'll be somebody else probably in that same situation so existing people who walk to school. How many are there at each of the buildings and then what, what do those families think about that I'm not sure if there's a way to survey that or if you have any, any clue about what that means. And I think the only other point I'd like to make is about the future use of a building. There's no funds assigned to field improvements at Fort River or to future use of either building. And we know that there's many of the uses that people would like a school is not conducive to using it for instance, a senior center. And you know, we had a meeting last night with members of the senior center advocacy group, who are saying the school is not conducive to a senior center because it's built as long hallways and that's the last thing seniors want is long halls ways with rooms off of it so I think we have to be careful about saying oh we could use it for this or that I, you know, in many ways. I see it almost as a liability to the town when we get a unused building in front of us, because each building is going to require millions of dollars of investment that we just don't have. So those are my points is like, is there any operational efficiency walkability. I don't know how to factor in future use of the buildings but just to sort of take away the idea that, oh this, we can just turn this building into this thing or the that thing we're learning very quickly that that kind of decision is a multimillion dollar decision. Okay, thank you. A couple of other people want to comment I just want to point out it's five after 10, and we want to leave some time for public comment and we also want to come back I think and talk about upcoming meetings. So, Ben. I'm trying to keep keep it as brief as I can here. One thing that I want to point out is that that I heard the term non salvageable in regard to one of the buildings neither are non salvageable. So the term is the juice worth the squeeze right one of them will cost more in terms of abatement. Both of them have new boilers. What with Wildwood being the newer of the two Fort River just recently last summer had a little over $100,000 worth of roof work done, but both would have a roof so I mean I've argued it both ways in my head as to which one would be better to leave to the town, but also selfishly I'm here representing the school committee so that's not necessarily my concern. So my concerns are Wildwood for a positive one of the positives I would say is the proximity to the other schools not just the other schools but the proximity to this is in my day job that I would think about this proximity to the maintenance department right it's quicker and easier to get there to for an emergency repair if we had to write that's one simple thing that I've thought about. The other thing I've thought about is like location equity is from making up a term or whatever but we would have elementary schools book ending our town, rather than to have one more centrally located and then another one more southern south located I guess you would say so that kind of factors into which one I find to be more favorable. The positives I have for Fort River are like the space space and more space but that also actually kind of like syncs up with one of the negatives that I have which is the amount of site work. It's a larger site that's going to need extensive site work. So without seeing the actual costs, like I would think that it would be more expensive to raise the overall grade at a larger property by two feet versus one feet at the school site if I'm reading the other positive is that it is kind of tucked in behind the other you have you have other properties in front right and so it's kind of out of the way you have like sort of a natural buffer from the road there but that's my main concern. When it comes to the Fort River site. So having done crossing guard duty at both schools. I will say that like the, I'm going to use a real technical term here but the sketchier of the two sites. In terms of crossing people right and that factors into walkability is Fort River that it's absolutely terrifying to try to get kids across that street safely. And I also want to add that like getting kids across across well down in across a pleasant street there that's not much better but but yeah the Fort River that that four way intersection is very hard to traverse which which also factors into the usability if we're talking about using it as a youth center as well you know that I'm still concerned with those kids and in terms of that which actually makes the Wildwood site better for you. You know, youth center right because you just walk across a campus here and just that's not that hard to cross from the high school. But yeah, in terms of like the traffic factor there that's what's that's what gets me the most at the Fort River site I mean I have to travel in and out of those both properties, multiple times a week and my work vehicle is a little bigger than a golf cart. It's still very hard to get on to Main Street and go left right like you're, you're, it's like playing that game Frogger or froggy if I forget what that was but where you have to cross multiple lanes. So that that makes it less favorable for me but I mean to be honest I could kind of go either way I see positives in each and I see negatives and each to me it really is going to come down to cost factor. Thank you. Angelica you have follow up comments. So I follow up with Ben's comments about traffic and because Paul asked me to elaborate more so I liked your technical use of sketchy because that's how I feel when I'm turning into get out of Fort River after picking up both my kids in the afternoon if you have to make either a left or right it's sketchy even in a car to try to figure out with the buses coming also in and out of that way because the even though there's two ways to get in to get out in the afternoon the flow is still through that way. And then you're also when you're trying to turn to get in and pick up your kids you have to watch out for the kids crossing so there's a lot of factors versus that Wildwood. When we're driving to go to Wildwood you have southeast you have a longer way then you turn to go to Wildwood so that's a longer way that you're not sort of bunched up to get there. I mean there's one only entrance but at the same time it just doesn't have that so many like it's not a huge intersection to get in and then there's the other way you can get into strong streets so sketchy yes definitely, but I'm also still undecided. And one of the things I would like to know more is to specify further the category about disruption and to understand because that's something that I personally weigh heavily is the disruption on kids. One of the factors is something raised that Allison raised about. Well, you know in terms of the disruption I'd like to know what are the plans in place and whether there's a difference in terms of disruption for given the spaces of the two sites given that there's more space at four river and less space at Wildwood. I raise my concern, because in all in both sites, they are programs for students with special needs but Wildwood has a program for students with intensive learning needs who are most sensitive to disruption so that is certainly a concern. And then the last issue that's weighing heavily on me is also future use of site now I understand, you know that there's certainly investments that would need to be made. And there's a difference between a senior center, you know in a BIPOC center, I think, you know for a BIPOC center, you certainly hallways and things like that would be fine and I just want to continue to have the discussion about the sites, and what factors, you know would be involved in the potential salvage ability of one side versus the other. And, you know, as a mitigating thing to decide because future use is important on that so I'll stop there. Thank you for the hands up from Alicia and Jonathan has returned to the meeting so Alicia. Thank you I just have a few follow up comments mostly. And one is that because I said my personally one of my highest wing factors is the fields and the space. I believe that, and like being acknowledging the investment that that would include, but the fields being treated is included in the basis of design so that will be included in the cost estimate that we get back and I think it was also mentioned from both sites will have considerable site work. And so again that's why I keep saying that I would like to have some more information because I also think cost is very important. And so we'll be making a significant investment, either which way. And so I think it's really about, like what are we willing to apply the money for what we think is most important and so I'm looking to see those things. In terms of walkability, I agree with Paul and I think it would be really helpful to see how many walkers we have from each site, but one other piece of information that I think would be helpful for me is to know the reason why they walk. So if they walk just because the school is close or if they walk because they don't have alternative transportation will be something that would be really helpful for me to know. And then I also agree that Fort River traffic is really sketchy. Again, I have previously also had kids at Fort River and Wildwood and drop off. I was. Yeah, it's just sketchy the way you put it you're going to have to figure out an accommodation for the Fort River, but it has two entrances was it which is the only reason why it is appealing to me because I think maybe there's something else we can do there I don't really know Wildwood just worries me because of the increase in traffic that we would have in one entrance and right now it might be workable but again we're like doubling the amount of people in the one entrance and there's another school building that uses the same entrance. And when I was entering I was coming from North Village so the other way, and children crossing the street there and people coming down that big hill is also an issue especially because it's close to you because there's a lot of students in town and all of those things that's another heavily traveled road in the morning so I think either way, traffic is going to be a heavily weighing factor. And then the site that's not used. I think that's like another important part of the decision and also a little bit tricky because again, like Paul said that's really sort of in the purview of the council but I think in general we can acknowledge that there's a lack of property and we've been talking about this on the council a bit. And so I think it would be really wise for us to have this conversation because there could be some importance and in making sure there's available town property for for future endeavors of the town, and about how that will affect the overall town budget like aside from just the elementary school building itself. And so I think that that's another important conversation that maybe the council should be having. And then, and that maybe their decision would affect our decision. And then also again just emphasizing what Angelica said about the disruption because that is another thing really at the top of my list that I would like to know more about. Okay. Jonathan, if you can work in your comments quickly. I think we're kind of run a short on time. Yeah, I'll be very quick. I, I think everyone has been an excellent job of kind of surfacing the issues that some of which are kind of cross purposes about choosing the sites. I have no doubt that a school could be successfully built on either sites. And for me, a lot of it's really going to come down to the costs, because I have, I have not made a decision in my own head about which one I think is preferable. And, and I'd like to see the final traffic reports I don't think we've seen that yet and just see if there's anything there that, you know, kind of suggest something different than what was in the draft by not going to be the case but and for me, it's really how does cost impact a lot of the issues that have been raised this morning. And thank you. And with that, I'm probably going to have to leave because there's a long queue of buses here it's at Coltsdurbridge Village and I'm sure the Fort River bus is somewhere in. So thank you. Okay, thank you Jonathan. So I think that's I think that wraps it up I think we've gotten a lot of input and Kathy do we want to come back and talk about the upcoming meetings. I see that Phoebe's hand is up, Bob if Phoebe if you can be fairly short because very quick, because I think this is a terrific conversation so go. Yes, very quick. So I want to have an understanding in the future, more about cost so I want to understand, you know, if we're talking about, regardless of site for, you know, a million dollars one way or another, what does that mean to the town I don't know that I have a good sense of that. I think that that's an important conversation when we talk about cost. And then I would like to understand what the options might be for the unused site whichever one that is. Would there be an option to sell it to lease it to use it as a community resource what those are so I don't need to know any of that now but if we could prepare that for future meetings that would be great. Okay, Bob I'll take it back from you now. Okay, thank you. I'm looking at our timeline. We're going to get a lot of information at the next meeting about costs, you know that I thought so some of what Phoebe is asking for is other kinds of costs in addition that that beside that the project costs. And I think that would be a good discussion. I think we're going to need another meeting between June 3 and June 13 because we have to go from getting that cost information continuing this discussion so two questions on the third if you could be do 832 11 we would have a chance of really starting to do more of what we just started to do, and I'd say, I don't think this is an easy decision but take that matrix we have. And whatever you want to do with it, you know if there's some lines that say, I can't begin to compare these, they seem the same to me or I have no information skip that line, but start to fill it out and I was thinking you could fill it out any way you want, like with can't colored pencils so we can come together to say, I'm leaning more in one direction or know them because of, you know, whatever, because we're going to have to decide so those are the two issues of using that matrix. Because we, we, we do have a hard deadline, I just want to impress some people if we can't get to a decision for the nisco to write a preferred option report we miss a whole cycle of MSBA. And we're no longer talking about 2026, you know, in terms of the staging of this. So it's an uncomfortable deadline. But I think I have more information than I ever dreamed I would have at this point and maybe that's a good thing or a bad thing. So, and so I just want to send out a poll on making it and Angelica, I know you said June is kind of out for you and participating. I had at least take a stab at filling out the matrix maybe you know it can be a way of being part of this. And Jonathan asked about the final traffic study we did file it to nisco sent it but I may not have made it clear it is in this week's packet and I'll just do a link to everyone so that that that has been reported out to it came, it came to us. And I don't know the cost basis of cost estimating came to us. So, I don't, you know, I'm not going to put everyone on the spot right now because I can't offer you dates and I don't know whether morning times are good but that week of the ninth is what I'm looking at and there's for us on the council, I don't. We don't have a, we don't have a meeting that week, you know, for me, the days are kind of open because other than the council meetings and finance but a lot of you have real jobs. So I'll just try to send out a piece when people agree we need another meeting before we have to make a decision. I just nod heads or yeses. Yeah. So I will send out some dates for that. Any other comments or questions before I use our time I know we had. I don't think I remember it's shown to put invoices on this so we're going to have to catch up with invoices on the June third meeting because I didn't post it as part of the agenda. So is it all right for everyone for me to move to opening it up for public comments. Yes, I'm seeing a thumbs up. Okay, we are open for public comments if people can raise their hands and I see three hands for hands one, two, three, four, five, five hands are up, and I just want to alert people. You know, I'm sorry for the tightness but Paul and and Sean have to leave. So we're at risk of losing a quorum if we go too long so try to keep your comments as concise as possible, and we will be happy to get written comments. Thank you. Paul, do you want to bring them in or should I can do it. I brought in hollow Lord already. She had her hand raised I tried bringing in Pam but she didn't come over I'll try it again. Okay, so hollow you you're with us. Yes, thank you. Two quick things. I heard it mentioned that both sites have bus stops but I want to point out that they're not equivalent at this time because one has a bus stop every 20 minutes and the other is just hourly. And then the second comment is on the slide basis of design quarters and toilets. They talked about individual rooms that, and I'm wondering if that's referring to the gender inclusive bathrooms. I understand from a different building project here in town that including gender inclusive bathrooms has budgetary and complete implications. So I'm wondering if that sentence is regarding gender inclusive bathrooms and could it be or doesn't need to be clear for the cost estimators. Thank you very much. Alright, Pam has been brought in. Pam, you're with us if you unmute. Yeah. Okay, great. I thought hollow was still speaking. I was, I was listening to the conversations about the various sites and I'm delighted to see that you've got some sort of primary weighted factors. The other thing that was going through my mind is, as a previous construction manager is that some of the concerns expressed were the impacts to the children and staff during construction. And I was looking at the site plans of Wildwood where just given the the narrowness of the site and the hillside that even with a three story building at Wildwood. The construction would be exposing literally half of the classrooms during the entire construction season or period to the construction noise and and visible activity so that's that's a major impact to the students but but it also occurred to me that that means that literally all of their outdoor play space is also occupied for the entire duration of the period. So, if it's a year and a half or three semesters of school. That's a pretty severe impact to the kids that will at Wildwood. Basically, I was looking at Wildwood thinking that even with a three story building there, there is no flexibility for growth that was someone else's weighted factor, without losing much if not most of, of any remaining outdoor playing space so these are just sort of the short and long term impact to students that occurred to me as you were all speaking. Thank you. Pam, shown you're doing this correct. Yeah, Chris is coming in. Okay. Chris you're here if you unmute. My comments are all about the specifications for the building. We didn't talk about that at this meeting is that is that in order or not at this time asking you Kathy. Can I summarize my if you summarize quickly that I did forward your email but yeah so quick and then feel free to also give us written comments. Okay. Energy budget there is in the bylaw requirement for an agreed upon energy budget which we have not, which hasn't happened that I don't think it's happened, at least in to the degree that it was contemplated when we were writing the bylaw. So, I would like to call everybody's attention to the description of energy budget that is supposed to be established early on and certainly should be part of this package we have a UI UI target, and that could be said to be an energy budget, but that certainly wasn't what we we thought about when we were writing the bylaw. So, you know, air tightness standard cited in the bylaw air tightness that an air tightness standard and air changes per hour could be established should be established. And so that it would be targeted under for a board or tests multiple board or tests during construction, and no no air tightness standard. Generally my reaction to the specs on the building itself the construction of the building is that it's a pretty ordinary steel frame concrete building with no particular remarkable energy construction, I'm sorry, energy conservation aspect to it. Particularly there's no discussion of embodied carbon or embodied energy and so we have steel frame and concrete building, which has terrible embodied energy numbers. Excuse me. Yeah, no I'm sorry just a couple more items one is that one of the comparing air source to ground source source both are viable options but there's a couple of arguments, having to do with refrigerant gas there that would argue against the air source compared to the ground source. I won't go into those but I, the refrigerants are very bad for the one if they leak they're terrible for the for the environment tell for terrible for for carbon change climate change, and we need to have control over that argues in favor of that the refrigerant gas and argues in favor of the ground source. We talked about there's a mistake on the gas fired hot water heater that's mentioned in the spec and Donna mentioned that. But the actually what we what we should probably do with me to consider point of use and demand on demand hot water at at at the plumbing fixtures themselves, at least for the bathrooms. Let's see. Chris, I'm going to ask you to send it and writing because some of what you're talking about would be in the next stage of schematic design. You know, you know, once we have a where we're doing it all of this. As you know, we haven't had another net zero. All of this will have to be addressed. So maybe you can get it to us and writing so we make sure that each of these issues are kept in front of us that would be great. I did get it to you. Didn't I Kathy. Yeah, you did you did and I'm just going to say that the nest code does have it so it's not that it was forgotten it's more what fits for this. It's a piece know what Donna said earlier, there is, it's being priced for certain things but those are going to be flexible on on the pieces when we actually make the decision we haven't made a decision and HVAC yet. And we don't have to make it now. Okay, thank you. Sarah's in the room. Kathy, Paul is going to leave right now so he can head to the next thing I'm going to stay for another five minutes just I think you'll still have quorum correct if I stay. Three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Yes, we do. Okay. Thank you. Sarah, you have joined us. Yes, good morning everyone Sarah Marshall here. I didn't see a lot of detail in the matrix about cost just really aligned for total cost but I hope you will elaborate on that because it's. I think residents are not just concerned about the total project cost, but also what is potentially reimbursable by MSBA and what is not what is going to be born. What are the potential additional items that Amherst might have to pay for. For the project but perhaps desirable other things like changes to street design those would be entirely on us. And as well as maintenance costs over time, or for the capital replacement like if you do this versus that. It's not just unless you're incorporating all of that into total cost I don't really know. Anyway, just to say there is a lot of a lot of information in cost that should be surfaced besides just what's the total bottom line. Thank you. Thank you Sarah. Maria has been brought into the room. Maria you are in the room. Thank you. I want to bring up several points. There is no field, no open field in the white in the Wildwood design. There's no grassy areas. There's there's constructed play space building and a lot of parking and roads and those cues those roads those parking are right adjacent to that play space. That is not the case at Fort River. Those what those beautiful fields are an amazing asset and a necessary asset to the kids that are going to be using the school and they're a very necessary asset to the town and absolutely. Yes, we need to invest in those fields that those fields if go please go there on any evening. Those are occupied by multiple different groups both informal informal informal using those fields and all of our fields in town need better drainage. We should fix them and we should seek other sources to help us fix them because a lot of that is the responsibility of the town. We need the building. We need the other building that is not going to be a school for town uses and it's not just senior center and by the way the senior center would not be using the entire 82,000 square feet and wouldn't have to be traversing long hallways. We could enter and use some of the very nice large 2000 square foot rooms in cafeteria. There's a ton of other programs that need space, the BIPOC youth center youth empowerment center. We need to have better funds ever we can build a proper early education center that could serve zero to five year olds which is in desperate need of space and there are no spaces a town council talks has been talking recently. There are no places that exist we cannot lose this asset for the town. There is not going to be any new construction we still have two other major projects to build we have a DPW we have a fire station. Nobody's going to be building new space anytime soon. Wildwood is much more amenable to immediate reuse its roof is in better shape and it doesn't need immediate replacement it the abatement that Ben was talking about that is if you demolish if you demolish you have to abate for the for the asbestos. But if you reuse it reuse that building you do not have to do that its proximity to the to downtown and to the middle and high school is much more amenable for all of these community uses that need a space. And honestly, as the parent of kids that went to Crocker farm. I'm really disturbed by all this talk about a campus model. 40% of the elementary school families are going to be attending Crocker farm. They will not be at this new building. So that is and there is there was no discussion of this during the educational programming piece that there's there's nothing in here about a campus in that about a campus model. I that to me is an argument being used to select the Wildwood space over the Fort River space that is a that is a false argument. The traffic. Yes, you should fix it. The traffic study said that these are solvable issues and there are things that you can do and there are ways to divert the the cars so that they're they talked about this they're going to be the cars are going to be exiting heading south on that on that south entrance. You've got two roads in and out of this site at Fort River. You do not have that and the things that you don't have at Wildwood you cannot manufacture. You cannot get that field. The kids are not going to be using especially kids that have mobility issues. There is no way to get down to those middle school fields. The ramp would be too long. They've already talked about that as not being possible. Kids need to be outside. We should be outside. We need those fields. If you pick. If you don't pick Fort River for the school, that asset of the town and for the students is going to be lost. Thank you. Thank you, Maria. And I think we have shown one more person Rudy's been brought in. Maybe if they could keep their comments to two minute a minute or two minutes. Just because we are a couple of people have to leave Rudy. I have to say I started off bias towards Wildwood I think a little bit my youngest son went to that school through sex and maybe I was just familiar and I think I also bought the arguments about Fort River having all these problems with the soil and the groundwater and poor drainage and so forth. And two things really changed my perspective. One is actually reading the reports about Wildwood and realizing that Wildwood had essentially the same problems like slightly different, but essentially the same with soil structure, drainage and so forth. And that made me start thinking about it anew. And secondly, I, my, my youngest son is now on the ultimate one of the ultimate teams and I'm over there four nights a week at Fort River. And I see what a tremendous community asset those fields are multiple teams using multiple families using the space. And I worry that if we don't pick that site. It's very likely to be sold for development, which would be a terrible loss to the town. The asset of Fort River that from the school perspective, the size of the fields is beneficial for future growth for flexibility of positioning the building for the geothermal fields which we won't know where they actually need to go until we do test wells. There's a lot of underground issues that are going to affect it and to have more room to maneuver those geothermal fields is a big asset. Outdoor learning is going to be better opportunities at Fort River. And two entrances is a plus if we can fix the traffic and I agree that traffic the two main things they're keeping me from final judgment on this are the cost issues and the resolution of the traffic at Fort River and at Wildwood. But in terms of a campus model. My son was at Wildwood and never got taken to to to the middle school so I don't see any big advantage from the students perspective anyway for the the campus model for the elementary school. So one last thing that if they could if Dennis go could explain at some point, why the perched water table just a little point. It needs drainage under the slab, whereas a regular water table doesn't. I'm still mystified by that. And so I'm looking forward to seeing the costs info and the traffic info, but I think Fort River right now is is a much better site if I was a developer looking at this, I would say, flat to entrances giant Wildwood you got slopes you got a single entrance. It's cramped is a cramped site. That's not the one I would consider the more valuable site. Thanks. Thank you Rudy and Tony, your. Thank you Tony Cunningham own drive. Thanks for this robust discussion. I would agree with the committee members that weighted heavily the need for green space for children, and considering the destruction during the two years of construction. The fields will be improved as part of this project so that is a benefit of selecting that site for the school. It looks like, like as Maria said there would be no flat green playing field at Wildwood. And regarding disruption at Wildwood the proposed location for a geothermal well is where the parking lots and access roadway are now assuming the drilling takes longer than two months from start to finish and the scheduling doesn't perfectly line up with the summer. So where would you have parked during the installation of the well field and where would buses and parents drop off. And where would children play during two years of construction because the location for a new building at Wildwood is where the main playground and playing field is now. Where would contractors lay down and would they have to be moved multiple times as was suggested by Donna at one of the public forums. And so we are now in the middle of paving versus the play space at each site. Currently Wildwood has 105 parking spaces. The proposal is now to add 70 more spaces, which incidentally is more than had been proposed in the previous proposal in 2016, which was for 175 more students than the school. In school, it seems that Kathy Paul and Sean all indicated they are not committed to saving Fort River if it were not chosen for the school. If that is the case, that needs to be clearly explained to the public so that people can be made aware what you are proposing. You mentioned the expense that would be needed to repair the remaining building, but how does that compare to the cost of having to purchase another property and build a senior center from scratch or a youth center. Imagine reusing the Wildwood school building would be significantly less expensive than building a new somewhere else. And lastly, that vacated school building can be used for swing space for future projects, something that's sorely lacking right now, as well as to de-densify the school populations in the case of future pandemics. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. I want to thank everybody very much, including the people who just commented. We have a lot of people who have stayed with us. And then some throughout the entire process. So if I'm hoping people will take the matrix home with them as a homework assignment. As I said at the initial, and I clearly misspoke about the Fort River building as being unsalageable. It's not unsalageable. It just needs an investment and Paul made that point they both buildings would. So I will send out once I do, particularly for the people who have jobs, find some time slots that might work. Mike, I know whether you missed this but trying to find a time the week of the ninth for a one hour discussion, which would continue this so we could be more comfortable getting to a yes on the 13th. When we have all the pieces. And I think that is it unless anyone has any final comment in which case raise your hand. I don't see any and Bob Stevens, I want to thank you for jumping in to the Amherst world, you did a heroic job of keeping us on task and making sure we all had time to speak so thank you very much thank you, everyone, and we are adjourned. Thank you.