 America Finding its Way here on Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. We have Tim Epicella, Stephanie Stowe Dalton. Winston is away and so is Cynthia. However, we're gonna proceed without their abiding optimism and pessimism as the case may be. So today we're gonna talk about Mr. Rogers neighborhood, losing in Mr. Rogers neighborhood. This was referred to in MSNBC discussion. And the bottom line, the tagline is Joe Biden is looking weak. So there's been a number of things that have happened and they're on two levels. Let's identify the two levels as I see them, Tim. And then you can comment on one or both, if you like. The first one is that he's been conned, I think. A lot of people feel that way by the Republicans. They did the same number on him that Mitch McConnell did before. They drag him, make him wait, they promise him things. That's how Mitch McConnell manipulated the impeachment hearing until after Trump was out of office. And then when he was asked to opine on that and had a big effect on things, he said, well, no, it's too late now. But he was the reason for it being late. The whole thing is about timing. Anyway, so now we're going into what, seven months, six months after the inauguration and add three to that, nine months after the election and Biden can't get his initiatives through. He got one thing through using the special technique, but all the rest of them are stuck. And this is a problem. So one is query, is he being as sharp as Akamai about the way Congress works as everybody thought? The second thing is we have three, four things that are going on in the Department of Justice that sound a lot like Trump, their continuation of Trump policies and investigations and the like. And you would have thought that Biden would have reversed all that immediately, but he didn't. And he has continued some of Trump's policies and you have to ask yourself, what is going on with Merrick Garland? So take your pick, Tim, which one you wanna talk about or both? Well, good morning, Jay. Let's have a stab at both. You know, was Joe Biden duped? If so, by who? You can certainly argue effectively that Mitch McConnell certainly has duped everybody when it came to the second impeachment and he played a little bit of a charade and then he said, oh, we can't impeach now that Donald Trump's out of the office, yet he couldn't impeach Donald Trump because there wasn't enough time. So, you know, Mitch McConnell scores big on that point. Now, Mitch McConnell has openly said bipartisanship is dead, yet we have people in the Democratic Party, Joe mentioned for one, that either is naive to say, no, it's not, or yeah, he knows it's dead and he's playing other games. You know, going back to Joe Manchin and playing this game because that's what it hinges on, the Democrats need Joe Manchin and supporters of Manchin to get their legislation across and approved. Remember what Joe Manchin said when it came to the January 6th commission vote? And he said, Republicans devote against this commission since Democrats have agreed to everything they asked for, Mitch McConnell has made this political position thinking it will help his 2022 elections. They do not believe the truth will set you free so they continue to live in fear. Now, with a statement like that, it was very definitive that there's no business for Republicans to vote against the commission, yet not one vote went that, well, actually a couple of votes went that way, but they lost the vote. They basically filibustered it. They didn't get the 60 that they needed. So why is Joe Manchin's believing that everything else is open for discussion with the GOP? And why is Joe Biden going along with that? At this point, I think he is being due, but I think at the same time, he had to allow the Joe Manchin's of his party to be convinced that, yes, GOPs are obstructionists. They have been obstructionists and they will continue to be obstructionists. So I think Joe Biden had to let, unfortunately a couple of months go by before that took place. You know, when I practice, the worst thing you could do in a negotiation, the worst problem you could have, I should say, is an opposing lawyer who would say, that's not good enough, keep coming. Keep making offers to me. I'm not gonna make you a counteroffer. I'm just gonna ask you to, I'm gonna tell you, your offer is no good, keep coming. And that's what Manchin is doing. He's, you know, Cuomo, Chris Cuomo has said, I don't know how many of his shows, if Manchin has a problem with the voting bill, let him write a voting bill. Let him say what his problem is. Let him suggest the bill that he would like. And for that matter, Joe Biden should say, okay, you don't like it, tell me, what's wrong with it? Tell me, you know, write a bill for me and let's really talk. So a negotiation, which is like smoke like this, it never comes to a conclusion. You have to have both hands clapping. Yeah, well, I think what you're shining light onto is the primary component of any negotiation and that is negotiating in good faith. And the fact that Joe Manchin knows there's something else going on and he's not playing his cards, he's not negotiating with Joe Biden in good faith. And that's the last thing you want to do as far as destroying your credibility, be it the GOP's not negotiating good faith or members of your own party. I agree, let Joe Manchin write the bill and then also say, Joe, now you're in charge of getting the 10 GOPs to vote for it. And if he can't do it, then pipe down. And if he can't do it, by the way, why don't you support amending the filibuster? Now get rid of it, but let's amend it so that we can get a working Congress for this administration. And the next one. What does this tell you? I mean, these are unanswerable questions. What does this tell you about Manchin? And what does it tell you about Joe Biden? Cause really the metronome is ticking and we're not getting anywhere. I agree, this question is not answerable. It's part of Joe Biden's style is to allow them to come to their own senses and allow them the time and the grace period that they need to realize that they've been on a fool's mission. But I don't think that's the case here. I think Joe Manchin knows exactly what's going on. And maybe just Joe Manchin has come to the reality that I'm not gonna be reelected in 2024. So I don't care. Right now it's all about me and the party of me. We'll see, we'll see if Joe Manchin amends his ways. I tend to think he won't, but we'll see. I think it's naive to think he's gonna amend his ways but hope springs eternal. It's interesting that a guy in the White House who has resources up, down and around who has theoretically the smartest guys in the world to help him, he can't do this basic strategy about bringing those fellows along. And was it, Cynthia said yesterday which I take her point. She said, you gotta go out there and embarrass them. You gotta take photographs of fallen bridges, for example. You have to give daily stats. But Joe Biden's not doing that. He keeps saying, I believe in them. I trust him. My name is Mr. Rogers and we're in Rogers neighborhood. And it's not working. The point is, what the problem is is you keep on doing something when you know it's not working. What does that mean? Well, the definition of insanity. To Joe Biden's credit though, he walks a very fine line, a balancing act that if he pushes Joe Manchin too hard, maybe Manchin just says, I'm now gonna switch my party, the GOP. Or, or, or- When the result be different? No, it probably wouldn't be. But at least you know where he's coming from. You don't stop wasting time thinking that your ally is your ally. Bottom line is we don't have time. Yeah. We don't have time to kill on this. And I don't, I don't really think that Joe Biden understands that he's on a short leash here. Stephanie, what are your thoughts? I'm certainly in line with your thinking. I think the time variable might be something that could open this up. And maybe we're, we're setting the string too short. And that actually Joe is willing to give it more time. And then perhaps he'll be eligible for the Nobel Peace Prize by having them come around at the very end. And it mean can just wait it out. But the, it also- Would you give him the Think Tech Peace Prize? Well, well, we'll see. I mean, he's in charge of the variables, okay? So he's gonna run it as long as he is. And if he's not motivated to call it yet, then maybe he can chew gum and go up and down the staircase at the same time. Because it is possible he's got too much on his plate. But as you say, Joe, Jay, there's legions of experts back there at the White House to be able to put it together and act on his behalf. So I think the variable of time is what he's gotta hold up. If we're gonna be positive, I'll be the optimist here. The variable of time. So he's gonna let it run. And who are we to say that the time is up? I mean, he can make that thing go fast whenever he wants to. So perhaps that's what he's planning to do. But Joe Manchin has got everybody by the tail. That is indeed the case. So he will have a lot come crashing down on him ethically and for his own legacy, you know, if he lets us. You know, if you had to choose between having the world come down crashing on him and the world come down crashing on all of us, I would be more concerned about the latter. Well, absolutely. So I think that's exactly what's going on. And the other thing is he and Sinema are in that committee group. So they are doing the work. And I am worried about her. She was most disappointing when she made that statement a couple of days ago about, well, no, you don't change the rules of the game. You change behavior. I mean, like what kind of, what? Are you a psychologist now? Or what are you planning to do? What does that mean change? Who's behavior? How about your behavior? And so maybe she has, and she's in there with Joe working of these people, working with these people to get to some sense for the country and for our way of government and- Okay, well, let me go back to Tim on the second issue. You know, not everything requires Joe Manchin. Some things only require Merrick Garland who now I know that the Joe Biden has said, I'm not gonna tell Merrick what to do. On the other hand, Merrick is supporting it to Joe and Merrick has found himself in a pickle a number of times here in the past week or two. And some of it is definitely on Joe Biden's watch. So let me try to enumerate. One was the memo from Bill Barr, or rather, to Bill Barr from Trump about the Mueller investigation and little of that came out with McGahn's. But bottom line is it's under wraps because even though Amy Berman Jackson said, release the memo, make it public already, the Trump administration said no and took that to court and lost. And that of course, when Joe Biden came in and Merrick Garland was seated, he appealed the Jackson's decision. So right now we're on the memo. And that's because Merrick Garland is keeping it secret. That's one, the New York Times story is actually disgusting. How Trump was investigating them and secretly getting their phone records for quote sources and quote, disgusting violation of the freedom of the press as he so often did. But what's remarkable is that Biden has perpetuated that and there's still a gag order there. It's a partial gag order now, but it's a gag order. What is going on here? You'd think he would reverse that policy. Well, there were two others. Oh yeah, there's the Gene Carroll case. Where right now as we sit here today, Gene Carroll, Donald Trump has been replaced by the United States at Trump's request. In that case, on the notion that he made these defamatory, arguably defamatory statements, when he was president, that therefore he's immune and therefore it's not that she should be suing him for defamation, she should be suing the United States, which is painfully ridiculous. And Merrick Garland has that one on appeal or rather he's continuing to treat that as a legitimate position as taken by the Trump administration. And finally, I'm trying to remember what else he has done or not done. He hasn't taken any action with respect to the shenanigans in Arizona, although he wrote them a letter and said, you're violating federal law. That was it, that's Mr. Rogers all over again. Write him a letter, you tell him they're violating the law, you're the attorney general of the United States, don't do anything. And finally, I mean, and I'm sure it's not final because there are other things too, he has not convened a grand jury, he has not convened an investigation, he has not convened a prosecution of Trump for the clear cut insurrection. May I say that again, insurrection of January 6th. This is especially poignant because the public wants to know because it seemed clear in television that there was a violation of federal law there. And he hasn't done anything. Now, he doesn't need Congress for any of those things. He could do that as the attorney general of the United States, but so bizarre that he's, what did I say, three or four situations and there's probably others. He's been a great Mr. Rogers. What's going on? Well, you remember when President Obama wanted Maryland Garland to become the attorney general and the fact that that pick was palatable both to Democrats and the GOP? Well, maybe that's what's going on. He's so middle of the road that he's not acting decisively. And maybe that's why both parties thought that would be an acceptable new person on the Supreme Court. Excuse me, I said AG, but Supreme Court. But the bottom line is, he seems to be stuck in neutral. And if not the January 6th to call for a Department of Justice investigation, then what does merit an investigation? No pun intended here. As you know, some people have argued, I like to throw this one at you that this is not really him. The entire Department of Justice as so many other federal agencies was corrupted during the Trump administration. And Trump was appointing and hiring and encouraged the hiring of Republicans who were his followers. And they fill the ranks at the Department of Justice. And it's those guys, those bad guys who are giving bad advice and taking bad action on behalf of the Trump way of thinking the Trump administration initiatives. And that's why Eric Garland can't do anything. You agree? No, no. And I don't agree for the simple reason that he's the attorney general. He'll decide which way that ship navigates the river one way or the other. And if he can't do that, then he shouldn't be attorney general. Yeah, you know, I'm looking at the Arizona too, you know, and you're right, Jay. It's, you know, I'm sending a letter saying you're in violation of federal law. Okay. Is there a follow-up letter? If so, when? I mean, let's knock this stuff off. Look at the Gene Carroll situation. I am perplexed about that one. I don't get it. I don't understand it. Why they're continuing to, you know, the defense of with Donald Trump on this point. That's something that's beyond me. Maybe there are probably wiser minds in the Department of Justice to say, well, we can't do it because of A, B, C, and D. It's just not known to the public of why we can't do that. Yeah, you wonder if the, you wonder if you wonder. Stephanie, you must have some thoughts on this. Are we getting it right? Are we getting it right here? This is so inconsistent with what we voted for. I certainly agree that your points are right on the mark. And the most important one right now, I think is the Arizona ninjas and what's gonna happen next. If they don't do something, they're coming up with what list of bamboo shreds they found or whatever comparable thing is that's gonna show that this was a whole screwed up election with many flaws. And that's gonna start to infiltrate the entire system of our media and rage. And if he's not gonna act, we're gonna have that wave crash and be another disturbance on everything that's going on in all of these people they're going out there to visit. It's already spreading like the pandemic. That this is a catastrophe already that they've got these other states of people in Cleveland, Pennsylvania, who did two, they themselves did two official audits. There's absolutely no problem with the competent auditors to do it, experience two different ones and the other states as well, Georgia. So this is a very disturbing lack of action. I think your point about no grand jury yet, no, no. We really have to watch here. I mean, what a disappointment it is to find that we bent double to try to get another president in there and throw Trump out. And now this, one of the things that strikes me is you have all these states around the country that are attacking voting. Quite remarkable. If you asked me in the street, I would tell you it's a gut reaction. That's against the constitution. It's supposed to have the right to vote. These are clearly racist moves and they impede the right to vote. Okay, there's gotta be a pretty good argument and a lot of high lawyers, I highly respected lawyers have said that. There's a violation of the constitution here, regardless of the voting act or the John Lewis voting act, regardless of that. Already now it exists. So it seems clear that the attorney general of the United States could file an action or multiple actions around the country to enforce the existing constitutional gloss that these statutes are in violation of the United States constitution. At least to raise the issue, at least to take a position. What's happening now is they're walking all over the Democrats. On top of everything else, that if he doesn't change the topic, Kamala Harris doesn't seem to be succeeding in a spectacular manner on her tour, on her first visit out of the country. So for that point too, to let her get some legs under her and get some progress made to have Biden do something about moving Merrick Garland. Otherwise, if he comes back, he better hit the ground running for all of these pieces that we're talking about. He needs to pick up. I mean, is he flagging because of what's very worrisome? Let's just say, because it cannot be that he's not informed of all of this and people are not urging him to do things. Well, he wants to be conciliatory, doesn't he? He doesn't want to look back. He wants to look forward. He wants to be, may I say, Mr. Rogers. Is that gonna work, Tim? In the long term, if you extend it out by another three or four or six months. Well, if it does keep extending out, you might as well just say, okay, wrap it up. We're gonna now wait till the midterm elections and that's where we're gonna have to focus on voter turnout and increase seats in the house and flipped seats in the Senate and just wait for the election. Despite those laws that have taken place, extra effort will be required. All hands on deck to get voters to the polls and vote and we'll do it the old fashioned way and that's just outnumber them. That's a bad strategy. I'm with you. The tick talk of time moves on and they're running out of time and don't forget, come July and August, Congress has gone for quite a bit of time. So then how much time do you have before the end of the year? Not much. I'm worried about that Biden controls. So he's just holding it way too tight. He's holding it. I mean, Joe Biden doesn't have direct influence and should he not have direct influence over the Department of Justice? And I agree with Biden's take on that. It's just unfortunate that Merrick Garland is not doing his thing, particularly with the voting rights and if they are in violation of federal law then do something about it. We're not seeing that and maybe he's just waiting for more evidence or more finding a fact. Maybe there's a discovery that needs to take place that hasn't taken place. Yeah, that's a possibility but if you connect all the dots about all the issues, doesn't seem likely because he's not taking affirmative action really un-much. Even look at, we have another variant now and there's a lot of people in this country who have politicized the COVID and are not gonna take a vaccine. They're not gonna do it. And so the curve of the increase in increased vaccines is flattening out right now, okay? We're gonna have a problem with that variant. That's my thought anyway, just listening. But you know what, he's offering a couple of bucks. He's got a huge big campaign, a public relations campaign try to get people to do it. He's saying, do it for all these rational reasons, isn't working, it's not working. I'm sorry. At the same time, if you wanna get on a plane, whether you had a vaccine or not, doesn't matter. You can get on the plane. And that's a federally regulated area. The FAA could change that overnight but he doesn't wanna do anything dramatic or anything that could be argued as heavy-handed. So the result is we're impacted on vaccines. The result is he's got a target, he's probably gonna miss. The result is where at risk you mentioned in the summer. I just, I'm pointing this out because I think of it was you, me, Stephanie, Cynthia, even optimistic Winston, we would find a way to make people take vaccines. You don't have to order them or arrest them as Xi Jinping would do but there's ways the federal government intrudes in our life anyway and it could certainly put pressure on every man, woman, and child in the country to take a vaccine. He's not doing that. Stephanie? Well, I'm so sorely disappointed because I know that the experience with Mahler was tough for everybody concerned because this was another Slowpoke event. Nothing happened, nothing happened. Expectations rose and rose and rose and there with the variable of time it was gonna run for as long as it would take. And then when he got to the place where he was finished then there was nothing. Then there was very, very little for us to go on and people were very upset about that, that there wasn't any information and what information we got was then distorted and disinformationalized. So it just seems to me that we're getting another round of this with Merritt and Garland. And certainly Biden can change this. This wouldn't be the first time the Attorney General had to be turned around. I mean, Clinton was dissatisfied for a while with his and I think that we had this with Obama too. There were some issues but I've never gotten to- Well, it's very high-minded to say that I'm not gonna control my Attorney General. Gonna let him do his thing but I'm not sure the law requires that. I don't think it does. I think he was just being high-minded. He's a high-minded, Joe Biden is a high-minded guy but what he could do is he could terminate Merritt Garland. He's a nice fellow. Maybe he would have been interesting on the Supreme Court but not as Attorney General. What do you think about the fallout, the implications of replacing Merritt Garland? Well, they would be fine if he got a mad dog in there to take care of business and get on with it. Start getting through the pile of backlog. I mean, that's what we need is somebody that's energized and got juice to go for the jugular here. We're all just, we're all so wimped out without being able to come back. We're just standing here with our hands tied and with every piece of our thought about let's get some action happening here so we can get to finish. Yeah, Tim, Tim, you know, it strikes me that Trump was never wimped out. Trump was the perfect foil for all of this. He does it, he does it on whim. He does it immediately. He does it in an outrageous fashion. He has no boundaries, no limits. And Biden has imposed on himself all these limits, sometimes legal, sometimes just really being nice. Bottom line is just as Stephanie says, the Mueller investigation, which was actually motivated by the Democrats, yeah? Failed, it completely failed. And what's worse, it undermined public confidence in the Democrats and in the system. And it emboldened Trump, he won. It was all a witch hunt, right? So the question is what is, you know, we've been talking about Biden's inability to get his initiatives through in Congress. We've been talking about Merrick Garland, you know, supervised to some extent anyway by Trump, you know, to straighten all these problems out, to take action where it needs to be taken, but has failed. And the question I put to you, Tim, is what effect does that have on public confidence? A lot. I think what people were attracted to to Donald Trump was his ability to make decisive actions, decisions and actions immediately. Donald Trump was ready, fire, aim kind of guy, but they liked it. They liked the fact that government was doing something and doing it quick, not studying it to death. You know, I'll use Winston's analogy yesterday, and it was a perfect one. You know, Donald Trump left an earthquake in the administration and on this country and assault on the media and assault on government and democracy and the rule of law. He was an earthquake. And like all big earthquakes, when people are trying to recover from it, they're kind of in a shell-shocked position. They don't know exactly what's way to go, up, down or, you know, right or left. And I think that's kind of where the government is and Joe Biden's administration is, you know, they're uncovering all the damage that Donald Trump has done and they don't know what to fix first. And so I guess my feeling is use the power of executive order as much as you can, that you're not breaking the law, but same time you're getting things done and putting business together. And I know Joe Biden has done several executive orders, but maybe he needs to do a few more. And tell it to the things that are just hanging out there and dangling and not getting done. So maybe that's the answer. So Stephanie, you know, one thing that Biden falls into with regard to these phenomena that we have been discussing is that it emboldens the Republicans, it emboldens Trump for the next elections, 2022, 2024. At the same time in the States, you know, all these bad voting bills are going through and the gerrymandering and, oh my God, there's probably a dozen little moves they make. Some of which will even get through if challenged. They haven't been challenged really, not yet, not in any number in the Supreme Court. And so the Republicans are lining up on two sides of this. One is to embarrass Biden, make him look impotent. And on the other side, to increase the power of the Republican electorate. So my question to you is, how do you think this will affect 2022 and 2024? As far as the net result of the control of Congress, for example, is concerned? Well, I think very badly. I think we've all learned, and I think that certainly the Republicans have taken on the best defense as the offense and taken it even a step further, never stop offencing. Just keep on going. And that's one way that the former president has stayed out of the courts in all of his life. He's pushed everything to the limit, right to the limit and beyond and never stop. No matter what it is or whether it's true or not, it's totally irrelevant. He's got to win. So he's pushing to win all the time. And we're not doing that. We assume that the Democrats are doing all of that, but sort of okay, right? So under the table, that of course they're giving every effort, but they're not. I just, I can't help but remember the man who was like an extremist and dying years ago, while the Mueller investigation was still going on. And he was telling his son who reported this on the radio that, oh, I can't die before the Mueller report comes out. I have to stay alive. I can't recall whether he made it or not, but what a disappointment. Nothing came out that he did. That's so poignant. And your reference to Mueller is so perfect. It runs a perfect parallel. I'd like to go to another level on this, Tim, and that is this. I think part of what Joe Biden is about is to return to this ideal of normalcy. Okay, now we talk about normalcy in terms of going out, going to a restaurant, doing business, opening the Think Tech Studio, what have you. All those things we used to do before. It is the thousand of, we can sit here all day and list all the things we'd like to see returned to quote normalcy. But there's another normalcy and that's returning to political morris, morality, ethics. And that's what Biden is about. He is trying to do that. He's trying to be faithful to that. That's why he comes up with these Mr. Rogers kinds of kindnesses and friendly, conciliatory approaches. Not working. So, taking it into account that the one thing that is constant and it's so clear now is change. The country has changed and the notion of normalcy has changed. Normalcy may not be recapturable, at least on the political level, maybe on all levels. So query, where are we going? Does this change, this inability to define and get back to normalcy work? Where it could be that people are going to get bloody tired of his efforts, his failing efforts to return to normalcy and they're gonna say, you know, Trump wasn't so bad. Well, Jay, if you're suggesting that Joe Biden should make America great again, I think that tagline's been used. I do think though that part of his Joe Biden strategy is to not give the GOP any more opportunities for cultural wedge issues. And certainly you had mentioned, you know, again, vaccine versus non-vaxxers and what do you do with those people? Well, if he starts enforcing FAA regulations saying thou shall not get on a plane unless you've been vaccinated and let's see your vaccine passport, what a cultural wedge issue for the GOP will that provide? And how will that just knock him out of the wheelhouse when it comes to the midterm elections of 2022? So he's trying to reduce any ammunition to the GOP about cultural wedge issues. And that's not easy because they're were so great at coming up with them. They're just so, they're experts that are coming up with cultural wedge issues. They're good. They're good. So, you know, but I think one way or the other they're trying to shoot him down in 2022 and 2024. They want to control the Congress and they want the presidency. That's where we're going. What's your level of optimism is that the Democrats can hold the line on those things? Well, I would be optimistic if I thought the Democrats had a spine and they know how to go on the offense and go on the offense aggressively, but they're like puffins. You know, they just watched the GOP eat their young and they just look around stupid, go, oh, that's okay. No, it's, I'm not optimistic. I am optimistic about the possibility of a big Democrat turnout on 2022 with the help of people like Stacey Abrams and the like and let them put it all on the line that, you know, this is about democracy and preserving the vote for all Americans, not just minorities where these laws seem to be trying to detract from. So I'm optimistic about a turnout. I'm not optimistic about winning the day though. And sometimes just because I have great turnout doesn't mean you're always going to win. No, and turnout is in some question if you keep on pounding on voting rights, you know, the way, and we don't get any real satisfaction in Congress, tick, tick, tick, tick, or in the Supreme Court, tick, tick, tick, tick. So Stephanie, last words. In Hawaii, we say umua, get on out there, go. And they'll ask on our dog sleds, we say mosh. On the East Coast, they say, give them hell though. Just give them hell, let the dogs loose. Let's go and take it on, take him on. Yeah. I think she's disagreeing with you, Tim. Hard to believe that, but I think you're right. But here's the funny part, Jay. I agree completely with her. That's wonderful. Thank you, Tim. Tim Epiculis, Stephanie Stolzalton, thank you so much. It's been a great discussion. Yeah, we don't need anybody else, huh? Yeah.