 Thanks, guys, for you. Thanks for coming. Like Sam said, it's going to be the holidays, so thanks for taking time to come out here. Hopefully, I give you some useful information. All right. So becoming a product manager, there is conflicting word on the street, as I'm sure you know, that you need to have a technical background to get into product management, which means a computer science degree official coder. And there are those who say you don't need it. And I am proof that you don't need it. I got into product management without a technical background. So I came here to tell you guys a little bit about that and give you some tips from my own experience. Like Sam said, I was a product manager at CBS Interactive. That's where I got my start in product management. I'm hitting almost six years in product management. I work at Stitcher right now, but most of the time at CBS. All right, get into the tips. As a product manager, you're typically called a PM. So my first tip is knowing what P are you emming? What product are you managing? So I would say if you can focus in on categories of product that you're interested in managing, and then pairing that with what value you can bring, that to me is really a good fit for a product to transition into. And examples of categories of product, there's a huge variety. Anything from say like a financial product, like a banking app to an educational app to a B2B app, like a data app, a data product, sorry, I didn't mean to say app, but there are a whole host of different kinds. If you can think about what different ones you're interested in and narrow that down, that will help you. And as an example, before I got into product management, the categories for me were advertising and media, two areas I was really interested in. And it was a good fit for me because the value I brought, I was working in advertising at the time, so I brought that real life experience. And I had gotten a master's in media, so I brought an academic perspective as well, so it was a really good fit and it was easier for me to make that transition into an ad revenue products. Next tip would be pairing your non-tech strengths with PM qualities. I give you some top examples of what I feel are really important PM qualities, like communication, influence, problem solving, and the rest you can read there. But I wanted to take a moment to focus on this because I know we're talking about the tech side, but the non-tech side is really important too. So if you are all in non-tech and looking to become product managers, I would say you already have a lot of strengths that some people who do have a tech background are reviving per say the same PM role as you don't have. You probably have better communication skills. You may be better at problem solving different things. You may be better at organization and prioritizing. That stuff is super important as a PM. So I would say take a moment to think about those things, think about like one or two examples for each quality from your current experience or your past experience so that when you get into a job interview or you're networking, you can highlight those really well. Next, and this is gonna be no surprise to you, dip your feet into the technical stuff. Take courses, go to meetups, read, read articles, read a book if you're so inclined, talk to other people who are technical, whether in your company right now or friends that you have, start a side project. These might be things you've heard before, but these are things I've all done, so I wanted to give you those as real life concrete examples and I gave a lot of examples within each one, so I believe they're sharing the slides later, so you'll have all these. I won't go through all of them, but some examples of courses, probably you've heard of Linda or Code Academy or Boot Camps like Sam was talking about. Those are great options and I listed some topics. If you were thinking about what topics you wanna learn about, it really might depend on what product you're looking at focusing on, but some general examples I gave were like HTML, CSS, SQL, being a good one, and then I wanted to take a moment to say, go to meetups, that's a super easy thing, a super low cost, and being in the Bay Area you are super lucky, there are a ton of meetups around this and a ton that are specifically around tech and I listed some out here that I found from a quick search, so you could really just go sit in on these meetups and sort of absorb the knowledge and you will learn these technical things over time. And then also gave examples for things you could read, newsletters you could sign up to. It all just kind of absorbs in you over time and that's me speaking from experience. And before I became a PM, the things I did were basically four out of five of these bullets and the fifth bullet I did after I became a PM. So I did a lot of this, I did a lot of the pre-work so just to tell you, you put the work in and you'll get what you're looking for. All right, nice tip. Now that we've talked about dipping yourself into the technical stuff, have a story around it. So it's really easy to take some courses and put them on your resume and yes, they look great and they might get you your foot in the door for an interview, but I feel like having a story will really highlight some of the things you've learned in a more memorable way. For example, before becoming a PM, I was actually, I was in media, I was on the TV side and I was trying to transition into the digital side which is more technical and to the PM side. So I had taken some courses, I read a lot of stuff and talked to people in the company so I had amassed the knowledge and by the end I was teaching our interns about the digital side of the business. So that was a really great story that highlighted what I learned in a really effective way. And then next tip, think like a PM. When you start thinking like one, you will just kind of be one in your everyday life. And I gave some quick, quick questions to sort of ask yourself to get yourself thinking like a PM. Basically, look at the world around you, look at everything you use, whether it's the apps on your phone or actual physical products and say, why do I like this product or service, ask yourself and then what would you do to improve it because everything can be improved. And then here's the catch. This is a part where it could get technical is how would you improve it? That makes you have to think about, oh, it's really easy to spew out what you don't like about something and what you would do to fix it but then when you have to think about how to implement that fix, that's when things get tough. And not to say that you should understand, oh, this is exactly how you should code it, that's not what I'm saying. It's the exercise of going through it and asking those questions. When I said before you could talk to people who are technical to start learning technical stuff, you could even ask that question to an engineer who works for your company or a friend and see how they would solve a situation or what their technical expertise is. It's really more about what questions you would ask, especially when you're in an interview situation. No one is expecting you to know exactly what the solution is, just that you're thinking about it. And thinking like a PM is great but you should also talk like a PM. So another example, again, if you're that you could practice is practice explaining tech to non-tech people and there is the flip side of that which is explaining a regular idea to a technical person. Now that second one, I feel like those with a non-tech background probably are better at, like I was saying before you probably have pretty strong communication skills. So I wanted to focus on the first one which is explain tech to non-tech people. So it's all ties in, this ties into what I was saying before where you wanna dip your feet in technical stuff. So learn a concept, read about it, talk to someone, try to understand it and then try and turn around and go explain that to someone who doesn't know it. And that will help refine the technical side of your communication skills which is pretty helpful. And I know everyone's going home for the holidays and you must have a parent or a relative, someone who is allergic to tech. And so I challenge you to find something and explain it to them. As an example, before I became a PM, I mentioned I was on the TV side of media. So I gave a presentation to a roomful of TV sales executives about Twitter. Twitter at the time was just becoming big and they, most of them didn't even know about it. So I told them what it was, I explained to them how it worked and I told them why it was important for them to know about it. So that was an example where I was able to actually do that and sort of use that again as a story when I went into an interview. So you see the theme here. Get some stories out of all this. And then my last tip is to be patient and unrelenting. It's not gonna come overnight and I think you all probably know that but it is totally worth the effort. I am here telling you that. Be patient in that, learning takes a little bit. But you know, go to meetups, tell yourself I'm gonna go to meetups a month, every month and then you will slowly learn these things. And then finding the right fit also takes time and it's not just trying to transition into product. If you were applying for another job even in your same area right now, you're not gonna get it overnight. You're still gonna have to go through the application process, all the interviews. So it's the same type of thing. It's just be patient but just keep doing it and don't give up on it and you'll definitely get it. And it's all worth it. You're gonna keep learning, you're gonna keep doing. And even once you get into product management, that's what it's about. I'm still learning to this day. I'm still trying to learn new things. I'm trying to be better. So it's a forever process. And it's kind of one of the qualities at PM that you kind of always are curious. You wanna know how something works. You wanna know how to do something better. So yes, that is it. I wanted to keep it short since people are probably coming from work. And you guys might have some more specific questions. I don't know exactly what background each of you has and what you're looking to get into. One thing I didn't mention here what I did wanna bring up is that I don't know if you guys have many years of work experience or just a few. And that might affect what kind of PM role you wanna try and get into. So when I transitioned, I actually went into an associate PM role. And it was an easier transition because I was asking to go in an associate's role. I just decided I'm just gonna go laterally or even slightly lower than laterally because to me it was worth the trade-off because instead of another year of applying for product management jobs, I had a year of experience under my belt. And then at CBS, I started as an associate. I moved up to a PM and then a senior PM. So you learn no matter what role you're in. I know it might be more difficult if you have a lot more experience and you really wanna move straight into PM and not an associate. And it's something you could do. I would say these tips will probably help you with that. If you're looking to go into an associate's role, you're not expected to know as much, I would say. I was not expected to know as much from the technical side as an associate. The big thing is really just not being afraid of the technical side. Someone just wants to know that you're not afraid of it and you're willing to jump in, you wanna learn. And that's really the big thing. So questions, anyone? I know I ran through it kinda quick, yes? What advice did you have on getting that experience to at least put on your resume? Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, I feel like there's been this trend of people talking about algorithms and things being used to scan resumes and then that kind of may or may not be why it's difficult for you. I would say, if you're looking in this area, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, and sorry, I need to repeat the question. I mean, you were asking trying to even move into an associate PM role, feel like it's difficult and your resume isn't getting past the desk and you're not getting that first interview. So I would say you are looking in the Bay Area, right? Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, so you're in the Bay Area. It probably is a little bit more competitive here because this is sort of the Mecca but there's also the flip side to that which is that there are a lot more opportunities out there. So I would say try every angle you can and to boost your chances and that will pretty much be what helps you. And in terms of what can you do to boost your chances, I would say, and I know some people don't like this but networking is huge, especially out here. And again, you're lucky to be out here because I'm guessing you know at least a handful of people who are all in tech or who know someone who's in tech. So just put yourself out there. I tell people, this is what I'm looking to do. I'm super interested in this. Do you know anyone that I can talk to and ask for informational interviews? I don't think you'll get very many no's if you ask for an informational interview for anyone in any company. If they're busy, ask them to pass you off to someone else. And I know not everyone likes networking and it's something I didn't used to like but it's just, you just keep doing it and it gets easier, I swear. Yeah, and then I just wanted to add since the question was about maybe not having enough on your resume to get that first interview, I'd say, well then just ask yourself, what else can I do to add more of this stuff to my resume? And one of the things I mentioned for dipping your feet into the technical stuff was having a side project. That's the easiest thing that gets told to most people when you have a side project that, bam, that can go on your resume. It's typically more than one bullet. It's really interesting. It makes people wanna talk to you and ask you questions about it. It shows your initiative. It hits so many bullets off that list, off that checklist of is this person a good candidate? You're proactive, you're spending extra time just to work on this. You're interested in something. So I'm a huge advocate for the side project. I did that recently when I, before I moved into my role at Stitcher, I did, I had two side projects on my resume. Definitely always got asked about at least one of them in any interview. And that's something that can go on your resume if it should be subjected to the algorithms that may or may not exist in the recruitment world, then you can then throw specific keywords that are related to product management in there. Yep, absolutely. So the question was, what are some examples of side projects that I did? Just to be clear, before I got into product management, I technically did not have a side project that I did. Again, kind of moving into the associate role, at the time when I moved in, I think it probably wasn't as competitive and it was okay that I did not have a side project. Not that everyone needs to, but I did the side projects after I got into the associate's role. So the first project I did was building a website. I wanted to build a website around big topics in the news. So it was a pretty simple website. I built it off of WordPress. I just Googled everything I didn't know. And I had a little bit of background in, I had taken a course on basic HTML CSS. So I was like, hey, let me use the stuff that I learned and do a side project that topic I'm interested in. And that was a great learning experience. And the site wasn't anything fancy. Again, it's about having a story that you built something, especially as a PM outside of the technical side, that you had an idea and you executed it. And you learned something from it. It may not have been perfect. So that was the first project. The second project I did was more recently and I had had a bit of PM experience before it, but I basically did do pro bono work for a startup. I asked around, found someone who was interested, who wanted someone to help work on something. Startups are a great place to look because they don't have enough people and they need to do 10,000 things by tomorrow. And I would say, not everybody answered my request when I started asking around, but you just keep asking and you'll find someone who's interested. And again, you can then kind of hone it down to startups that you might be interested in, that are in the area of the products you're interested in. So kind of like double, triple whammy when you can help them out with something like that. And I'll think many people want to say no to free labor. So that's a benefit of being in this area too. Yep. Oh, sorry, we'll get to you after. Hey. I was wondering how the public needs to do something out without really like dangling to make it sound like, I don't know, I'm disparaging my form. Yeah, gotcha. And that's a good point that you make that folks always say you don't want to be too, you don't want to get negative in an interview. So that's a really good point. You don't want to make it seem like you're disparaging. Even if you're not, it could come across that way to someone else. So that's a great point. And I would say do the best you can to, I mean, personally if it was me, I do the best I can to kind of avoid that conversation and give it a little bit of a better light and just say, hey, I'm looking for a new challenge. Maybe you're looking to work on a different type of product or a different area. And you could still bring it up because it is an interesting topic and it could highlight your strengths. You could say, you know, they hadn't, at my company, they had an interesting take on technology, you know, and I had some ideas, you know, that, you know, that could potentially take it in a different direction. And hey, do you want to hear them? Yeah, yeah, no problem. Oh, I'm sorry, yes. Thank you for reminding me. Gotcha. Yeah, gosh, the question was if you do have a side project, how do you list it on your resume so that it doesn't confuse people? I am trying to remember what I did on my resume. I can't even remember at the moment. I think I did list it under my experience, but what I did write was like, I actually think I used the word pro bono and I think that makes it clear. Oh, this is probably something this person's working on on the side. But I mean, you could ask anyone else, you know, friends or whatever for feedback. I love the crowdsourced brain, you know, comes up with more ideas than you can yourself or asking the internet. But yeah, I used the word pro bono. Yeah, you could make a separate section if you wanted to and if you have the space to on your resume. I don't think there's any harm in that. Yeah, yeah, cool, yes. Can you speak at all to product management of non-digital products? Oh, the question was speaking to product management of non-digital products. I'm going to make a disclaimer. I've only worked on digital products. I do think the basic, the role as a product manager and what you do is basically the same. I think it's the same qualities, it's the same type of work and skills you need. I think there are different challenges posed by physical products versus digital products. And I think that's where, you know, I can't speak indefinitely to that. I know that in certain instances it will just change sort of the cadence of your work life in the sense of say like automotive, you know, before they launch a new car or an updated version to a car there must be months and months and months, you know, of work involved in a feature or product update. So their sprints as we call them, like the length of their project timeline is probably much longer, is my guess. I'm sorry, I can't speak more to that. I do think it's fascinating and very interesting to do. Hey, yep. I think it's a tendency sometimes to always try to apply for positions with the bigger tech companies. But do you feel that you can get just the same amount of knowledge in a PM role in a smaller startup or maybe even more knowledge because you're kind of like one of the few there and you're kind of leading the path towards what the company is doing? Like you think there's like pros and cons to both sides of like a PM and a big tech company and then a PM and like a small startup? Yeah, the question was, are there pros and cons to being a PM at a big tech company versus a smaller startup? Absolutely, 100%. I mean, so I had spent most of my PM career so far at a big tech company and now at a much smaller one and it's very different. I will make a disclaimer, I think every company, every team runs differently. So I think that that's one thing to note but just generally from big versus small, yes, I would say, but there are pros and cons. So yes, the fact that the team is smaller at a startup, you are probably gonna be wearing multiple hats, you're probably gonna be touching a bit more stuff than you would at a big tech company. When I was at CBS, everyone was very specialized but there were exceptions to that. So again, it goes down to what is the team and what is the team doing and asking the right questions when you're in an interview to understand that. But I will say, on the smaller team side, you could be wearing more hats and having your fingers and more things but it could be done in a different way. Startups are known to be quite like sometimes depending on the state they're in haphazard because they need to get something done because they need to get that $10 million investment or whatnot. And sometimes in startup, you don't really know what you're doing, you're just trying things. So when you're at a more mature, larger company, a lot of times it's more structured but you also might have a more refined way of doing things. So you could potentially learn more in some ways there. So you learn more in different ways in both a small and large setting, I would say, from my experience. Yeah, I'd say it's tough but it's about asking the right questions and you're in an interview to understand what you're walking into. And I would say don't be shy about that. And I've learned this over time to sort of say, hey, here are my goals and aspirations so that when I walk in, we all know what I need to do but we all know what I want to get to so with your manager. So yeah, what the hell? Some of the things, it's hard to grasp until you're in it and then you're like, yes, this makes sense. Any other questions? Is everyone here mostly all trying to get into product management but not in it yet? Okay, cool, awesome. I wish you the best of luck, it is amazing. It's like, it's worked to get there but it's awesome.