 Welcome back. Time for our first conversation. I guess it's comfortably seated and poised to give us this expert's opinion on an analysis of this. But let's quickly give you a background to our first conversation, the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC on Wednesday, promised to ensure credible conduct of this month's elections. Of course, I'm sure you're looking at next month's elections as well. The EFCC chairman, Abdul Rashid Bawa, gave that assurance at an Interfaith Peace Summit organized by the Nigerian Television Authority's Abrahamic Mission in collaboration with the Al-Habbiya or Al-Habbiya organization in Abuja. Now, in the same vein, the Inspector General of Police Usman Baba had last year at a one-day stakeholders' summit on addressing the influence of money in the 2023 elections said the police had devised strategies to arrest and prosecute politicians moving on election day with tons of cash for vote-buying. He said we'll ensure that at least this menace is brought to the bare minimum his words. Now, we can say indeed that vote-buying poses an existential threat to free, fair, credible elections in Nigeria. How can this be curbed? Joining a conversation this morning on curbing vote-buying in Nigeria's forthcoming general elections is Dr. Moshala Deji, a political scientist, joining us live from Marina Bay in Singapore. Dr. Deji, good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Thank you for having me. When you hear the Inspector General of Police sounding so passionate and talking about vote-buying on election day, you hear the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission through its chairman talking about curbing vote-buying and all sorts at such attempts to scuttle elections. Do you feel confident that this can be achieved talking about curbing vote-buying in Nigerian elections? Well, I don't feel confident that curbing vote-buying can achieve if and to go by the word of the head of the security agencies because time and again we've had them as young Nigerians, we are young Nigerians who've come up with strategies, different strategies, counter-strategies to call vote-buying, but again and again the issue of vote-buying has come up repeatedly in the Nigerian political sector. So I see it as knowing what to do, knowing that function, but really to do it or just try to make promises so that Nigerians would say that they've not done anything. So not until I see real practical examples of vote-buying being caught of a situation whereby anybody that is found with humongous cash is being dealt with by the security agencies. By that I mean being a render prosecuted. That's when I'll begin to believe that a national is being taken. For now I think it's just lip service because everyone is benefiting from the system. It teaches political parties who it's like an illegal or ratified practice in our electoral system. So I believe that the instrumental and the chairman of PFCC are just saying lip service. Precisely during the primaries, vote-buying was prevalent even at the primary level to the tune of dollars. So if they are now coming now to say okay we are going to call vote-buying. The question is what has changed? For me I still believe in the system being put in place in terms of the Naira policy. I still believe in that more than the action of the security agencies because let me forget, the end of security agencies I just won't pass it. And like every other organization in Nigeria, we have people that are ready to compromise. So even if the end of security agencies are not willing to compromise, what about their voice? That will be pushed into different states, different words, different local government areas. And we have thousands of phoning units across the country. So we can't really say that this will be defective because even if it ends, we are not willing to compromise. What about their subordinate? So for me, I think vote-buying will be a difficult practice to call, except if we use like a system strategy, like this issue of the designing of Naira and the web, it's difficult for politicians within a short period of time to imagine the amount of money. Dr. Deji, let's get to that. Now that you have mentioned the Naira redesign, you have also stated that you don't believe that we can achieve, I mean it's possible for us to get into an elections without vote-buying. But you're also saying that you don't believe in the Naira redesign policy, which is actually predominantly meant to, you know, cobb vote-buying in the foot-coming elections. Well, I believe in the Naira redesign policy more than the words of the head of security. And do you think that that can help us achieve, you know, or cobb vote-buying or tame it, however you put it? Well, it can help us vote vote-buying because it's the new policy. Before, by 2027, Naira politicians, they are funding out that implies a means, another means to kind of like engage in electoral practice. But for now, because the Naira redesign is a new policy of government and a new Naira not yet to circulate widely, you know, you need billions of Naira for vote-buying. So I believe that now the Naira is traceable, it is trackable, so it might cobb vote-buying to some extent if government is willing to really stand its ground. But if by another election cycle, definitely the politicians would have found their way around it. But for now, I think it is effective. I just think that the Naira, that Nigerians are not available for Nigeria to spend now, we won't be seeing that Naira on the election day. That is my fear. I just hope that the CBN is being feared to hope political parties are Nigerians. If the Naira is not available, then who is not available for everybody? For a situation whereby on the election day, as we are seeing in party now, they have made Nigerians not available for Naira to spend. But we see rich kids spraying the new Naira not yet. What is the ceremony? I pray that we shouldn't see that on the election day because it should be a clear place of sabotage against the system and the Nigerian people. But if the government stands its ground and the system maintains the pace at which it is going, it will do a very large extent called vote buying. And that will, in turn, on the long run, have effect on performance in office. Because we can hypothesize that if you spend less, maybe you will still less. We may not be able to call stealing totally. But if you spend less, maybe you will still less. And at the end of the day, in terms of performance, if you know that money cannot win you that political power that you are looking for, you will increase your performance to appease people. So now that the chances of vote buying is getting slim, we can see that politicians have devised a new strategy, which is to use columnar campaign to hire influencers to dig deep into the background of their opponents in order to create a bad impression of the opponent in front of the electorate. That is the new strategy that I think the politicians are using now to sway the mind of the voters. Since you can use what the voters need most, apparently which is Naira, and they are now using the columnar campaign to malign the image of their opponent so that they can see that they want to vote for as bad. Dr, you talked about swaying the mind of the voters and that caught my attention. We have spoken to several politicians, several people who have been in politics have left those who occupy an office currently not occupying. And they will tell you that forget that thing, like you said, Nigeria. It's not the voters whose minds are being swayed. The voters themselves are the ones demanding for something that you can't go to a community, you know, a locality, a suburb, to the streets to say vote for me empty-handed. They will tell you, you're not serious. What have you come with? Give us something, find us something. So, I mean, should we be looking at the attitude of values of the voting public as well in this conversation on vote buying and the demands made by the people who are going out to vote from or the candidates and those who come to campaign to them? I absolutely agree with you that we need to look at the perspective of voters, because in fairness to the politicians, there are some citizens that when you are going to political office, they even expect you to steal. Strong citizens don't know performance by how well you can steal. Strong citizens cannot even distinguish the function of a particular office from the other. Some time ago, we saw this senator, Senator Bukatua, a conversation that leads between him and the member of his constituent, asking the senator to please help him because he wants to get married. So, you begin to ask yourself, how does he, a constituent, get him married as to do with legislative duties? How can, how many weddings would Senator Bukatua be able to sponsor? So, it can only be through a corrupt process. So, the citizens themselves, at some point, as this aspect of expectancy, they're expecting you to kind of like bring something to give them something. And that is only influenced by one, poverty through disorientation theory and education. So, I like the fact that you have mentioned poverty in the course of this conversation. Remember, Vivid Leader, those statistics that was revealed in 2022, 63% of persons living within Nigeria, approximately 133 million persons are poor, multi-dimensional poverty. And so, how can we separate, you know, vote buying from, you know, poverty? It feels like it's a, it's, it's a twin business. Poverty and, and not, not to be very honest, people are really hungry. I mean, this, this is not to make, you know, an excuse, but how can you separate that when someone is hungry, very hungry? I mean, there haven't been opportunity to come into whether or not it's just going to be for a day, whether the bag of rice would last for just two hours or less than, or two days. So, how, how do we take out poverty from vote buying? Well, sincerely, it's very difficult to separate poverty from vote buying. Because if people start the essentials, if one talks to people that actually are doing it on the basis of what they need to survive, like food, definitely in this team, someone that wants to offer them the food or what they can use to buy the food, they will show them the meaning of that person. So, but something, it is quite difficult for me to separate vote buying from, vote buying from the, of the politicians. So, to say, but what I think we can do is to have a system that works. If we have a system that works, that it will be difficult for you to kind of like bridge that system. For example, if the politicians know that if somebody votes, you cannot know how the person has voted, then you will be kind of reluctant to buy the vote of the person because you can't really verify. For example, in advanced tribes, you can sit down in the comfort of your room, log on on your phone or computer and cast your vote. So, if I'm sitting in the comfort of my room, how do you know who I voted for? So, you will be reluctant to kind of like induce me to vote. But if we have this a case system whereby on the session, everybody has to kill, and we have policemen that are willing to compromise other politicians that are willing to compromise whereby we need to show who we have voted for. Definitely, that will encourage good buy. So, I think technology has a major role to play. The lesser people we have on the Cuban election day, definitely has an influence on the aspect of vote buying. Because if we cut them simultaneously within the comfort of their sitting room, as it's been done in advanced tribes, they will be very willing to show their will by giving. But you know that vote buying does not just happen. I mean, vote buying doesn't really happen on the day of the elections. So, there's pre-vote buying and then, you know, there's vote buying proper on the day of the election. So, I think that we have always thought about vote buying just limited on the day of the elections where you're being given cash, whatever it is for exchange of your vote. But it goes beyond that. I mean, even during the period of politicking, these are, you know, things that can entice the people. What's the essence of all of that? I mean, what you usually do not do, I mean, we see our campaigns like charity events. That's what our campaigns are about. So, you have people going to campaign in different villages. That's when they begin to bring goods, you know, they bring items, food items and what have you, you know, just give to the people at the point of campaigning. So, how do we describe all of that? Do we, over time, limit vote buying to just the day of the elections? Because I think vote buying goes beyond the day of elections. So, there's pre-vote buying and it's, you know, vote buying on the day of elections. Yes. There's pre-vote buying and there's vote buying on the day of the election. But the most important phase in the vote buying process is decision points. The decision point when you are about to cast your ballot, who is looking at your account. That is what will come vote buying. For example, every woman likes to be free. If there's no job or if they don't believe that God is in heaven looking at them, what people will do will be different. People will have to just ask the way they're so pleased. So, if on election day you have the freedom, nobody's transmitting you, nobody's trying to verify your actions, I believe that most people would rather vote differently. But people answer tight because you need the money and people are there to verify your action before giving me the money. So, you have no choice than to do your bidding so that you can get the money. But if you can get the money or the material item and they are not there where you are going to cast your vote, there's high probability that at that point, that decision point, you will want to force your mind. You won't put a vote against your budget because you know it has no consequences. Nobody's looking at you. Nobody can verify. And at the end of the day, it's just only has to be all around ratification. Yes, for your party where you might have done something else. So, I believe that to be of good time, we need orientation, we need more oriented things like this to not impact our own mind because politicians are sorry to say it like the devil. They have no freedom. If they give you something, it's like an investment. They will come back for it in million four. So Nigerians need to realize that. And if there's technology, technology doesn't need all of them in this 21st century. So, I believe that if Nigeria can increase its technological advancement politically, can have more oriented business, then vote buying would begin to reduce. And if we have a working system, I want to see policemen colliding with politicians but vote buying being prosecuted at the election. I want to see politicians with humongous amount of money being prosecuted. And if I am to propose his legislation, I would propose that there should be a law that on election day, if you have formed with more than 5,000 Nigerians, it should be prosecuted. Because it is believed that the polling unit will naturally be close to your house. Even if you are traveling, maybe from get us to maybe your show states now to cast your vote, it is believed that you won't travel on that election day. You would have traveled before the election day. So, if you have traveled before the election day and your house is close to the polling unit, even if that's the worst case scenario, you want to take maybe a bike or something, you can spend more than 5,000 Nigerians or 1,000 Nigerians. So, what are you doing with 100,000 or 1 million in your pocket? So, if we have a law that on election day, the money that must be found on you must not be more than maybe 3,000 or 4,000 Nigerians. That would be a long way to come for the fine. That would be a long way to come for the fine. Interesting. We don't have laws to change that. So, not that if I am free on the election day to be moving about 5 million Nigerians. What am I doing with 5 million Nigerians? Dr. Deji, what you have talked about is very ideal. But you know, you said the law enforcement agencies, Kazanik has his hands full, the political will or the will, and even the personnel to be able to do that. The EFCs talked about deployment of a personnel around the country. One wonders if they have enough personnel to go to every polling unit. So, they can't possibly be everywhere. But you've talked about technology. You've talked about also orienting the people, make sure they understand the dangers of vote buying, and that your politician gives you 5,000 or 2,000 or whatever it is. I don't know how much he gives these days. And that he's going to come back and get it when he gets in the pot. But we hear people say, collect the money and vote your conscience. Collect the money and vote your conscience. Does that work for you? It works for me, but it's really difficult for you to collect the money and vote your conscience because Nigerian politicians, they are pretty smart. They know that Nigerians that they are dealing with are smart people. They can collect the money and vote for another party. That is why more party agents would say after casting your vote, before you come and collect the money, try to flush us. Let's see all the papers so that we can know whether you have voted for us or not. So, in that case, it is very difficult for you to kind of like vote your conscience. And sincerely, we have a kind of like society that encourages such in the sense that if somebody collects money, let's say this or that, vote now. The person will go into the community to eliminate it. That's the extent of poverty we find ourselves in. You eliminate it and have collected money, go and collect yours too, and you begin to feel inferior if you don't join them. So, the rate of poverty itself is very, it makes it difficult for people to kind of like have a clear conscience of your home. Because if their homes in Nigeria, that's rice, it's valuable commodity. So imagine politicians coming with rice, coming with granite oil, coming with 5,000 Naira. 5,000 Naira to you, if you know, is a migrant amount of money. But there are people in our country that 5,000 Naira to them means a lot of money, especially in Nigeria. We have to go now. But just before we go, in less than a minute, I'd like you to show your thoughts. You have mentioned technology. And we know that in the 2023 elections, we'll be deploying the beavers for these elections. Do you think that the beavers would help stop reading plus vote buying? Well, the beavers wouldn't stop vote buying. But the beavers can help to cope reading in terms of the manipulation that occurs at a collision point. A system, wherever we have people saying they are carrying a result from word to word. Look at government and the only one in the figures, the beavers will have to solve that. But my fears, just the beavers, is the tribunal judgment in Oshusti that despite the beavers, there is a negation of electoral practice that gives me serious concern. And I think I need to look at the system again, the reaction of Nigerians that the election is critical because, like any other election in the history of Nigeria, this election means so much to every upgrade in Nigeria based on this situation to find ourselves in the country to a very terrible situation like us. All right. Doc, a quick one, a final one from me. Some people have said accused some political parties of vote buying. Before the election, go out and canvass the votes. Or the canvass votes rather, they give out things, scholarships, they give out empowerment tools, sewing machines, tricycle rickshaws, what we call keke, and bags of rice, clothes to the women. And others say, you know what, this is not vote buying. I'm just simply doing empowerment. Do you agree with those who call that vote buying and should people reject those kinds of things close to the election? Well, I think there should be a timeline for empowerment in the sense that maybe a year before the election, you can't do any kind of like empowerment. If you're forgetting your constituents for three and a half years, you are seeking the election and it's three months with the election and you are distributing, you know, motorcycle, sewing machine, that is an indirect form of vote buying. Nigerians must understand that vote buying goes beyond financial transaction. No. If I offer you rice, if I offer you beans, if I offer you sewing machine, it is still vote buying. It's not when I give you cash. And we need to now be looking at the intention behind the action. The intention behind the action is important. If any politician comes up now and look at the strategic person in the family and keep the person like a motorcycle, definitely we can safely assert that the politicians are not only trying to buy the loyalty of the person, they're trying to sway the influence of people around such a person because every person has family, friends and colleagues. So if you are benefited from a politician, if you are protected, a motorcycle or something, definitely you will go into the streets, starting in the places of that politician. You will do anything to convince your friends, your family to vote for that politician. Another thing that is trending now is post-election vote buying. Post-election vote buying is that they will promise you that, okay, if you can deliver your streets for us, that you are the new leader in this city, because deliver your streets for us after the election, come and take this motorcycle. After the election, we will give you this Toyota Corolla. That is a form of vote buying in itself. Another form of vote buying that I've been able to identify is that that goes on in the civil service whereby the hotel civil servant to go and win their constituents if they still want to retain their job. That to me is vote buying. Before you put the civil servant under pressure, when does winning your particular street ward or local government becomes a qualification for you to work in the government paracetam? So we have this trend for more. Vote buying that can only be checked if we are a sincere system that can really check this is an oriented citizen that can look beyond the immediate chain. Doc, interesting. Interesting. Very interesting indeed. Doc, we've overshot the time. We learnt a lot from what you've said today. Highly enlightening. I want to thank you very much for your time. Dr. Mochila Deji is a political scientist and he's been a guest all the way live from Singapore. Doc, thank you. Thank you very much for having me on stage. Well, that's the size of our conversation. At this point in time, we take a quick break. When we return, we'll be talking spots. We have the calf shard right there and also talking about the bonus that's been paid to the super fire cons would be the crux of our conversation. Please stay with us.