 Hi, welcome everyone, to tonight's Alumni Career Pathway series. I'm Shannon McKinnon, the Director of Career Development and Work Integrated Learning here at Emily Carr. And tonight's panel is taking place at Emily Carr University, which is located on the unceded traditional and ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Swathe Tooth nations. So tonight's film panel is part two of the Alumni Career Pathway series, an annual three-part panel series which is sponsored by RBC and presented by Alumni Relations in collaboration with Career Development, Work Integrated Learning, and the Schumpke Center for Creative Entrepreneurship. This series hosts alumni, panelists, and moderators who demystify career paths for current Emily Carr students. I would also encourage you to check in with QR code on that table, and you will be entered to win one of three OPUS gift cards. So and with that, I'm going to introduce our alumni, Alan, who is our moderator tonight. And yeah, take it away Alan, thanks. So okay, so we have sound, yeah. Okay, so yes, as mentioned, my name is Alan. I actually work here at the school. I have a fancy title called Industry Liaison for Research. What it really means is that I'm a Walmart greeter, and I try to help people come to the school and do research and research projects with us. I am also a documentary filmmaker and active in my practice, so I'm really excited to host this panel and be a part of this, not host, sorry, moderate the panel, and good to see all of you, and I know a lot of you are film students, so this is great. So the word demystify maybe is a good place to start, but that's kind of what we're going to try to do. So on my left is Kevin, on my right is Emily, and Jen. And I'll just quickly read their bios to try to abbreviate where I can, because they've accomplished a lot of stuff. So Kevin is an award-winning writer, director, and producer based in Vancouver. Most recently he wrote and directed British Columbia and Untold History, a critically acclaimed documentary series that won five Leos, Leos' award, a very prestigious award here in British Columbia. He was nominated for Canadian Screen Awards by the Academy of Canadian Cinema and Television. His credits include Humboldt, The New Season, After the Sirens, and I'm abbreviating because this is an awesome bio, The Death Debate, Emergency Room, Life and Death at VGH, I think. Was Melanie part of that? Melanie Wood? Yeah. Oh, okay. In addition to directing where Kevin is accomplished producer, his credits as a producer include the award-winning documentaries Hyda Modern, Vancouver, No Fixed Address, Hyda Gwai on the Edge of the World, Oil Sands, Karaoke, and Echo Pirate, the story of Paul Watson. I think I've seen that, that's great. And feature films, Prego, Fido, and the Delicate Parking. And the Gemini Award CTV movie, Elijah About the Life of Canadian, OG Cree politician Elijah Harper. Did I get most of that right? Okay. Okay. And Emily Bak, Kai Bak, is born in Toronto, graduated with a Bachelor of Fine Arts from Emily Carr in 2008. What year did you graduate? Oh, I'm going to date myself, 1999. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. With a focus in painting and sculpture, soon after, didn't mean to put you on the spot, soon after graduation she relocated to Montreal and began co-managing the art collective in performance space, LabSynthesis, okay, there she began to collaborate with local musicians and artists on live performances, pieces, documentaries, and music videos. In 2012 her music video for Grimes Oblivion became a viral and critical success and brought her commercial representation as a director in the U.S. and abroad, where you reside now, right? Yeah. She began making music videos and commercials for hire, working with artists such as Arcade Fire, Lorde, Solange, and Grizzly Bear, and ads for brands such as Google, Toyota, Yves, Saint Laurent, Vogue, and Hennessy. In 2017 her debut short narrative film, A Funeral for Lightning, premiered at TIFF and went on to be nominated for a Canadian Screen Award, as well as winning the Grand Jury Award for Best Short Film at the LA Film Festival. She is currently in development on another short narrative and her debut feature film. Okay, and on her right is Jennifer Lee, Jennifer is a multi-disciplinary artist who finds passion in directing, filmmaking, illustration, martial arts, and photography, cool. She's been a professional stunt actress for many years and with her unique background she wishes to continue exploring and expanding her skills as an artist and storyteller, striving to tell stories that are moving, action-filled, and inspiring to the audience. God, we need those. She has a unique journey at Emily Carr. She was telling us about it and an inspiring to the audience. She has a unique, oh, I read that already, sorry, with her capstone short film, Sold, Lightning Award, the President's Media for Excellence in Film, as well as the Sarah Lee James Memorial Award and Canadian Cinema Editor's Student Merit Award. She believes in hard work and a humble mindset and strives to be a down-to-earth, supportive and collaborative leader and team player. Awesome. Okay, well, I'm really lucky to be talking with all of you guys and appreciate you coming today. Maybe I'll start with you, Emily. How did you go from where you were as a graduate of Emily Carr, 2008, do you remember those days and how you got to this place? What got you going? Because you had a background as a visual artist, right? I'll speak into this. So, I mean, looking back, cool, this is actually helpful, unless it's conflicting. Hello. This is a small room, so I feel like it's unnecessary. Yeah, I mean, when I think back to, I haven't been to this new campus, so the school's metamorphosized into this massive, monolith. When I walked down that road, what is that road, the main road? It's like, great northern way. Yes, I actually lived off of it on Main and Six that I would bike to the old campus at Fulse Creek. Yeah, it was a beautiful bike ride along the seawall, and yeah, it's just amazing to be here again. I don't remember your question, I'm sorry. My question was, you graduated in 2008. Did you know what you wanted to do when you graduated, or were you, yeah, how did you get into it? Well, I feel like my path to film was extremely meandering, and I did an exchange to a school in New York, and I there became demystified with the art world, I feel like. In the sense that it was a sobering experience of living in New York and going to shows there, and being part of a painting, like the sculpture installation community, and making sculptures there. And I came back to Vancouver, really appreciative of this school, and I love my time here, and I realize what a gift this school was, but it fostered, it didn't really, I came out of graduation deciding I didn't really want to be a contemporary visual artist, or like a gallery artist. So I just, I moved to Montreal because I had a friend that was moving to Montreal, and got involved in, I wanted to hang out with other active artists and people that were devoting their lives to art, and it seemed like the most vibrant community of artists that it could come across were musicians. So I organically became friends with a lot of musicians there that kind of taught me this practice of waking up and making your music even when no one's like paying attention, and no one cares. And there's no, because when you leave this beautiful greenhouse of a school and you're like thrown into this late stage capitalist commerce driven world, and then you're expected to continue an art practice, it's next to impossible, it really feels like you are thrown into the wolves of like you have to survive and make, you know, pay your rent and also have enough hours in the day to make an art practice somehow. So living in Montreal was, I was able to move into an art space where we paid our rent through live shows and we'd have musicians, like music bands play and we'd charge $5 a door and that was like how we were able to live rent free and have like a large loft space to like play in and sense of make installations and performance spaces and music like sound pieces and like it was just like a bunch of very driven, probably alcoholic but whatever, like free minded people that were all basically living on part-time jobs and the other part of their life was devoted to some sort of practice, mostly music. And then my roommate had a camera and I just started filming and documenting, interviewing because I just found these people fascinating and like they, you know, some of them are from Quebec and had E-Faux like spray painted on the walls which was, it means you must or it is necessary like art you have to do. And I think I struggled with not needing to do art because there wasn't a professor or classmates or any kind of structure of saying you have to, no one cared if you made art or not all of a sudden. And from going from weekly crits that Emily Carr here to all of a sudden being this vacuum of like I made something and no one cares and there's nowhere to show it. Like I don't like, especially leaving the art world network here and going there where no one knew who I was or what I made or if I made anything at all or, you know. So I think that camera kind of provided a way to, you know, like the Duchamp idea of like an artist's job is to point and because I was making mostly ready-made, I like, I remember my fourth year painting class I was bringing my professor and classmates to these like grease curtains, these greasy curtains hanging in an auto body shop because I thought they were like beautiful and so we had like wine and cheese for these greasy mechanic shop curtains which the professor, which I wish I remembered his name, he appreciated, he said, this is what you find beautiful. This is, you can, this is like the ready-made, this is can be your painting. And I was like, I think that really, I think this was such a progressive professor of painting that he allowed me to hand in as a painting assignment these 50-year-old greasy curtains that I had never touched before but I said like that's what I think is a beautiful painting. And I think through documentation, like if I hadn't started documenting these things through like, you know, like as you as you have to document a sculpture, I started to document performance pieces that I wrote and directed and casted my friends in and then through that process of editing the documentation, I realized that I could change the meaning of the work by putting the beginning at the end or the end at the beginning. And then I was like, it felt like a Eureka moment of like, I have discovered this new genre of art making and then I was like, oh, that's montage, that's cinema and it's been around for a hundred years. So then I was like, maybe I should learn more about film. And then I basically started making music videos for these musicians. And then one of them was Claire Grimes who ended up becoming successful and I wrote her coattails to get representation as a commercial director. But which is which is a whole other beast. And I don't think I would advise many people to go down that road because you don't have a lot of creative control when you when you are a director for hire, but you do pay the bills. So it's a catch-22. But that's my long winding road. That's that's a cool story. Well, well, let's come back to that in one second. But Kevin, maybe you can tell us about you. You were it was it was almost Y2K. And you were you were entering the workforce and thinking about what you were going to do. You were getting out of this place. What what what what was happening? Well, we're all worried about Y2K destroying everything of the economy. No, we were, but that's really funny. That seems I must sound so old. Y2K is. Yeah, you guys. Yeah, exactly. But really, we're really dating ourselves that when 2000 arrived, all the clocks and computers were going to roll over to a bunch of zeros. And that was going to just mess up everything. And the idea that like bank machines, commerce, industry, everything was going to just be destroyed. Traffic lights wouldn't work. We'd all be crashing. Planes would fall out of the sky. We'd lose all our money, et cetera. So this, you know, because in the era of computers, there had never been a turnover to a new century or a new millennia. Anyway, I just that I just had to share that since he didn't know that there was a bunch of movies made about it. Plus, there's lots of people that all thought that the world was going to end on December 31st, 1999. They did. Yeah. Spoiler, it didn't. Anyway, this microphone sounds weird. Can we just project or is that going to mess up the recording? OK, then I'll talk this way. So I don't know if that does that has a nice nicer mix. That's great. It's I thought that was just Alan's smooth voice. So when I graduated, I was fortunate that I had done an internship in my between my third and fourth year at a place called BC Film, now called Creative BC, which is the Provincial Funding Agency for Film and Television. Now they've brought in to include a whole bunch of other things like magazines and book publishing. But so that was kind of my real opportunity to get a sense of like how you actually get movies and TV shows and documentaries made in this country because you don't usually learn that in film school. You learn how to, you know, use the tools of a camera and edit system or things like that. But I and certainly most of my peers upon graduation had no idea how you actually get money to make something. So I was very fortunate just by coincidence done this internship in the summer of my between my third and fourth year. So when I graduated, I went and got a job there. I was just an administrative assistant. But that allowed me to basically meet everybody in Vancouver slash BC who were making films because that was like the script development office. So for those that don't know, but like there's Telefilm, which is the national funding agency for Canadian feature films. And then there's the Canadian Media Fund, which is for television. And then yet the provincial level, we have this creative BC. So I was, you know, my ostensibly, my job was answering the phones and, you know, getting the mail out and stuff. But they were very great in letting me get involved. And I would just like read all the scripts that were coming in that were being submitted for funding. And that was a huge education. I always see my like film education in three chapters. I worked in movie theaters at the age of 15 through end of Emily Carr. That was my first like film education, seeing the ritual of how people actually go to the movies and what's involved and what they experience when they do that. And I, you know, got to see tons of movies for free. And then my formal education, Emily Carr. And then the third part I always saw is working at DC Film and seeing how movies were made and meeting all the people like, you know, people would come in with their applications and I just start chatting with them. And so that's how I met a lot of directors and producers in this town. So because of that, I really knew who everybody who was like trying to get something made in this town were. And after doing that for about a year, not even, I was like, OK, enough of that because I don't want to just kind of work behind a desk for too long. I'm going to try to get a job at one of these production companies. So I started phoning around some of the people and they knew me because they had either known me at BC Film or actually from working at the Fifth Avenue Cinemas, which is where one of the movie theaters I'd worked at. And I talked about movies with them. So I would like call up the directors in town that I knew. I was like, hey, I'm wondering if you would have any need to hire an intern. And the first two places were like, we have no money. And if we did, we would be hiring this other person who's been volunteering. Another place was like, we just can't do that right now. And then finally, the third place I called, they're like, oh, hey, Kevin. Yeah, like, we enjoy talking about movies with you. As it so happens, we are just about to go into pre-production on our first feature film, but we don't really have any money. I was like, oh, well, good news. There's this fund I found out like that there was an internship they could apply to. So the that would foot the bill for my wages. So they didn't have to worry about paying me. They basically got a free intern. So I basically went and started working for them. And that was like a few weeks before they started official pre-production on their first feature film. So I got in on the ground floor of like what became, you know, for many years, a big production company. They were called Anagram Pictures and we made several movies there. And that's that was how it happened. I got in, I started as like an assistant to the producers on their first movie. And I just quickly started, you know, grabbing balls and running with them. Like, I remember they would say like, we have no idea to how to do our tax credit application. I was like, I'll try to figure that out. So I would just start doing things. And by the end of that movie, I was the associate producer. I had gotten like promoted first. I was the assistant and then I got, then they're like, well, what are you doing now that we're finished filming? Do you have to go somewhere else? I was like, no, nothing else lined up. And they're like, OK, we'll hire you as our post-production supervisor. So then I became the post-production supervisor and then led to me being the associate producer. So that was how it all started. And then I stayed there for seven years. I was an in-house producer. That was their first movie, which was Andrew Curry's Mile Zero and Andrew Curry ended up going on to making a movie called Fido, which I was also a producer on. And that was about a boy and his pet zombie. It became a cult hit. It stars Billy Connolly and Cary Ann Moss and that premiered at Sundance and played all over the world. And yeah, and then after that, I kind of was like, OK, I need to strike off on my own and do my own thing. But that was how it started, was was literally just kind of kind of being an intern at a local production company. Awesome. Thank you. Well, that that is inspiring. So so over to to Jen. I mean, what what tell us about your story? You've been at Emily Carr in one capacity and other for quite a while, right? So you were doing other things while you were doing your degree sort of in bits and bytes. And then what what happened? Yeah, you got that one. I think it should. Hello. OK, this is pretty good. So, yes, let me see how I should start on this story. I started at Emily Carr initially in twenty twelve when I first graduated from high school. And I really loved drawing and painting. And at the time I wanted to go into Emily Carr for fine arts or animation or illustration or something like along the lines of that. But I also practiced martial arts growing up. I practiced like Chinese internal martial arts like Tai Chi, and then I also loved watching the Hong Kong martial arts films growing up. And along that path, I kind of stumbled on into this martial arts called martial arts tricking. And I started training with unbeknownst to me at the time, like stunt people. And I became friends with them and I was like, wait, you can do stunts. And that's like a career. And then I started becoming more interested in film. And then as I went into Emily Carr into the second year, I was like, I can go into art or I should maybe try going into film and I could learn more on the technical side of it. And like, you know, that's also just a very creative thing to do. And I just love being creative. So I went into film and then I pursued stunts kind of at the same time. So I guess in a way like I was pretty lucky that I kind of got into film through kind of a different aspect. And I only graduated this past year in May, 2023. So that's kind of like a long journey. And I'm very grateful. And, you know, from like everything that I've learned from Emily Carr and all the support I got from my amazing instructors and peers. But yeah, so I started Emily Carr, went into film after going into like pursuing stunts. And then as I kind of went into it, I started getting more work in film. And I think that's a really valuable experience, like whatever direction, however you get into film, because just being on set, like working with all the amazing people you get to work with in film, you just learn a lot. So yeah, and then I would get jobs and one of the more memorable experiences for me was I think it was at the time like I was in second year. I think I was in Christine's class at the time. And then I was like, oh, no, I got this email. I have an audition for an opportunity to go to the UK to audition for Star Wars 8. And then I was like, oh, OK, well, I talked to I talked to Christine and she was very supportive and I ended up going there, did audition. And then I got the role to stunt double for Kelly Mary Tran in Star Wars 8. So I guess my career is just kind of like, oh, I want to finish Emily Carr, I want to get my film degree. And then my parents are also like, oh, you should, you know, finish your thing. You started it. But then I would be like working and then trying to do school at the same time. And it's really hard to juggle. So that's why it took me a long time. But I'm also grateful in that journey, too, because I've gotten to take that time to myself and also just with that learning process. I got a lot gotten a lot more life experience. So when I did and end up like finally finishing my grad film, I feel like I've had a lot more experience, a lot more connections and resources and people that I can trust to come help me with it. And then also within stunts, like there's something else that I was very grateful that I got to do. Like so I do stunts and I also do acting. And then another thing I've gotten the opportunity to do is something called like action previs or action previsualization. Basically, you create like a prototype for the production to showcase the action side of filmmaking. And so you for me, it would I would get hired through the stunt department and I'll work with a stunt coordinator and we'll go to either like a rehearsal space or the actual set. And they'll design the actions, whether it's fighting or the stunts. And with the stunt performers, stunt performers that we have access to will court will practice it and they'll act it out and do the action as well as they can. And I'll basically work with the stunt coordinator to film and also edit it. So we have a prototype to show production for like basically it's a communication tool like storyboards to communicate with directors and producers and actors. And I feel like that has helped me a lot with in terms of directing actors and also just working with in collaboration with other people in production. Yeah, I guess that's kind of the story roughly. That's awesome. I need that you could do both things like that and sort of, you know, be juggling between the two. I just want I'm interested to know, I mean, careers are kind of moments, right? Or am I incorrect? Like are there a series of moments for you where you feel like you know, you had kind of understood what you needed to do because you you're you're really behind the camera and trying to figure out what it's going to look like in front of the camera. Like, how do you take that moment that you're, you know, when did you feel confident enough that you could like do this, that you could take this on kind of thing? Well, I guess like the training received here was like you from foundation is like you have a vision and you execute it and usually executed like as an individual. You don't even talk about it to anyone else. You just build something like basically you maybe like have a little meeting with your professor before, you know, before the day. But you usually I didn't even really even share with my peers what I was making or whatever you're working on. We all had our like little closed off studio spaces that you would be like hammering away on something and and then you reveal it on the crit day. So and then you get a bunch of feedback, but it was often like everyone was working very isolated. So I think that biggest challenge I had was like working collaboratively on a film set because you physically cannot, you can't like physically create a movie as an individual. Like so. So coming from the sculpture or painting background, it was like for me to like even begin working with some photographer, let alone like everyone else that's like all the other department heads like to to wrestle the camera out of my hand. It was it was, you know, took a lot of trust. And then and then from there, you know, handing things off to like a production designer or an editor, I'm still getting used to because I feel like editing is such a such a huge part of writing. And so I usually I usually do a first pass of the edit, at least. But. Yeah, I guess like I didn't it was just one of those things where you have a vision for a film and then you it's this exact same thing as having a vision for a installation. You just start to gather the elements. So like if it took me running my bike around, finding locations and street casting actors and then in getting a DP on board, you know, it started with me shooting everything myself and then started working with the photographer. And then it started working. And then I think the next thing I started working with was locations go, you know, once I started working making commercials, it was like all of a sudden you have like 100 people under you. And so you're you kind of like you just start to be have to get really good at delegating and communicating. And so I just I just literally followed the framework of being a visual artist and like that I learned here. Like that basically just understanding that you're you just have to put stick to the vision to try not to compromise, fight really hard and and communicate as well as you can to your heads and everyone on board. And and eventually they start to trust you, start to work with people that that you get along with and trust you and that you're friends with, which really helps. I think working with like a grumpy old AD who looks at you like, you know, like who is this girl is can be very like difficult and you end up just having to prove yourself, prove yourself that you like you do know what you're doing. And I think like once you've proven yourself to amongst like a bunch of talented people that are your friends that want to come on board with you and work with you, which I think you guys can find here in this kind of I think you guys work on each other's projects. Yeah, I think they do. Yeah. If you stick with that that model for life, then you have essentially all the elements you need. You just need money and once you get the money, then you can hire all your friends and have a blast. But so yeah, that's a great answer. Kevin, how about you? Is there a particular moment in this journey or a series of moments where you felt like, yeah, I'm here, I'm doing this thing. And I kind of feel like I understand what, you know, I'm on top of my world kind of thing. Was there maybe not. I don't know. The answer is no. I mean, I still don't feel that. I mean, it's really hard. And I know that's not the thing you want to tell a bunch of people or just about to try to go off on it, but it's brutally hard. And like the body count of the people who don't make it in the business is high. Like, you know, I had an exceptional year at Emily Cart. We were all close friends. We it was a really creative, magical, wonderful year. And I'm friends with lots of them to this day and they're all over the planet. But I'd say half of my film year are still making films. And that's a really high number. And, you know, as we already referenced the year I graduated in 99. So I've been doing this for professionally 24 years now. There's lots and lots of people I've worked with who I was like, oh, my God, this person's going to be hugely famous. They've won awards. They're at the top of the game in Canada and they've checked out. So I'll be honest, like, no, I've been doing this 24 years. I still don't know if I'll get to do it next year. It does feel but I'm an independent filmmaker. I make documentaries. I make independent feature films. So I'm not playing in a super commercial space. There's obviously much more stable past go, even if you were in film. But for me, the reason I think I've lasted is kind of a commitment to the opposite of a moment. It's like I'm just in this. This is what I want to do. I've known that I wanted to make films pretty much all my life. That might be foolish, but that's what I wanted. And it was kind of more important to me than anything else. So I've sacrificed most other things in the pursuit of that. And that's facilitated that dream because that's what I'm doing is that it's the pursuit of that dream. So, yeah, financial stability, long gone. You know, the stability of partnerships and relationships. That's pretty much at risk often. That's not anymore for me. But like those are the real stakes that you face as an independent artist and it gets hard. Like, you know, I'm whatever you can figure out the math. I'm the age I am, but I don't have kids. There's no way I could have continued to be pursuing the path that I do, which is I get to make the films that I want to make. And I've let that drive everything else. That's a certain personality type that I don't, you know, think is necessarily always healthy. But that's just the way it has been for me. But there's huge stresses to that. I mean, I have lots of friends who I'm like literally worried about because they'll like go all in on a feature film of theirs that's an independent feature that I think is a brilliant masterpiece. But it's Canada. The five customers that you have in terms of broadcasters and distributors go out of business on a regular basis. So they finance their project and then Super Channel will go bankrupt for a while. And then they disclaim this project, meaning that they'll suddenly say, even though they've got a contract, they're not going to give you your money. And so my poor friend is then on the hook for 50 grand and trying to pay his crew. And even though that's not a huge sum of money, that makes them suicidal. And that's a real story. And like, fortunately, he survived. But like, that's what you play in when you're making the most expensive art form there is. It's different than what it costs to get a bunch of paint on a palette. It's making a movie. So that was a really downer answer, but I feel it's also good to be honest. Yeah, and I'll just, maybe I'll add a little bit of my own experience in there because I completely echo what Kevin is saying. And I think the important thing with film is, and this is something Emily has said too as well, is that building a really great team of people around you that you can collaborate with, that you can rely on that are on this boat, that you're charting somewhere together, you're not exactly sure where, but I cannot, in independent filmmaking, that is really crucial because you have to really trust your fellow sailors for the most part. Now, I would like to ask you because you are freshly graduated in some ways, what can you tell this graduating class right now about your successes and your path and what advice would you give them? Because they're going out there into the big bad world, but I'd love to just hear your thoughts about that. Yeah. Oh, I keep forgetting and wanted to grab my mic. I think we can actually- Hello? Have you heard the phone? Can you hear me? Yeah, your mic is falling down, so try it. Oh, okay, I'll try this one. Hello. Yeah, I would say going back on what Alan and Emily and them all saying is like having a good support system and having people that are your friends that are very talented and that you're happy to collaborate with and you trust each other is really important. It's interesting for me to think back on that because my original classmates that I first went into film school with in 2012, 2013, like they've all graduated like all since graduated like a long time ago. So when I went back into Emily Carr like last year to do my grad film, I kind of had to redo that process of like meeting everyone and kind of gauging out what everyone is interested in. Like I was very lucky. Like my classmates were very talented and they were all really good people but at first like going into it, I was very nervous. I think I emailed my instructor Carlos and I was like, I haven't been in school consistently since like many years ago and I don't know anyone, like how am I gonna approach this? So yes, keep in touch with your peers. Could keep in touch with your instructors. Like they're really valuable assets and resources for you to get that support to create the things that you wanna create, especially like, yeah, they're just really, really good to have. And then also I would say, yeah, volunteer on each other's sets. Just go out there and do the thing, do the thing that you love and just keep practicing. Yeah, I think that's really important. And if something feels like scary to you but you're also really excited for it, that's at the same time, I think that's a good sign that it's something that's gonna challenge you and it's a good learning opportunity. Like even me coming to this panel today, I was like, oh my God, my public speaking, I don't know. But I try to push myself to do it. Yeah, and just be confident. There's always an element of like, you fake it till you make it and there's a lot that, there's not everything that you can already know before you go on to a job, especially when you wanna challenge yourself. So just go and do it and if there's things that you need to learn on the day or study or research or ask people beforehand to be ready, you can do that, so do that. And then don't let anyone tell you not to, don't let anyone tell you that you can't do it if it's something that you really love and you're passionate about, you have to fight for it. Beautiful answer. So let's turn to something a little, we've done the career practical advice thing. Maybe we can talk a little bit about some of the interesting challenges that you're facing. Is there some, I mean, is there some new project that you're working on that you're really excited about and that you can tell us about, even a tidbit of information? I just want to keep the tradition. I'm trying to think of like that use that this is the most expensive art form and it really is an unfortunate situation that it is cause it is such a, like I'm always so envious of partially musicians that they can pick up a guitar and just like play every morning and like the amount of days on set you get in a lifetime, like you could probably count that like, I mean even like Scorsese would have said like he's probably been on set like less than a year of his life, you know? Like if he adds up all his movies, so I mean he's like an ultimate example, but maybe two years. But like if I were to count how many days I've had on set as practicing as a director, I'd be under like 30 for sure. So I just, I'm thinking of practice and so recently, I received a Canada Council grant which was my first ever grant. And I've applied for a few, I've applied for actually quite a few. So there's hope kids, keep applying. But this is like, I think like the problem is that you need to create a body of work to get even grand money. So how do you create that body of work before you can, and I think like school is, you definitely, you guys are creating a body of work right now. For me it was music videos which I know other filmmakers that I'm friends with that are, they all started that way because you're receiving a budget of like either 5,000 or 20,000 or 30, like depending on the label. But that you have money basically to realize an idea and you can make that idea like quite narrative if you like, if the band's down with it, then you can essentially make a short film that's six minutes long or five minutes long. And that was how I was able to build a body of work through music video budgets, which is a little bit of a hack because then you can be continuously inspired because you can write, get an idea, pitch it to the band and then within two weeks you're shooting it and then within three weeks you're editing it and then within a month you have what popped into your head like now physically there in front of you and you can shoot on film, you can practice, many, you can work with actors, you can play, like you can have, go hard in the paint man and just make whatever crazy experimental if you wanna use a rig that you've never used before, whatever, if you wanna go like Michel Gondry on it, like make the whole video backwards or like Spike Jonze, like all these, there's so many filmmakers that got their start with Jonathan Glaser, like with music videos. So I feel that is some, I just wanted to add that to the advice pile because I think- How many of those did you make? I've made over 15 to 20 music videos, yeah. Wow, it's like in that style, like get the idea. Yep, yeah, at least 10 in that it of where it was like, I heard the song, closed my eyes, saw something, wrote it down that night, like put it into a treatment, sent it to the band, then they were like, okay, we need to buy the end of the month and so you would then that you would rent the camera for a weekend, try to like maximize the budget as much as possible and then you're editing and then all of a sudden you're watching it and you're like, wow, like I just realized like I was able to get from what was in my head onto a screen in less than three weeks time and that's because of how high the turnover for, and maybe I got my start also at the heyday of YouTube but like I feel like YouTube was, I sound like such a grandmother, but back then YouTube videos, like people were really watching music videos on YouTube. I feel like that was, I feel like people are not watching, paying attention to music videos as much these days, maybe, I don't know, but it feels like there was, I came up with a time of lots of music video directors like the Daniels and Hero Marae and like a bunch of great, yeah, great, they were all pumping them out and I was like a peer amongst them, we were just all making music videos nonstop. And anyway, so I kind of burned out doing that because it doesn't pay, you don't make any money, you really don't, I would put all the money I had of the means of hire budget, I'd shoot on film, I would just work for free and eventually doing that for a month or two and eventually doing that for years, I did that for about five, six years and I was like, I just physically couldn't continue that lifestyle because I was just in, super broke. Yeah, it's not sustainable, but I was able to get enough work to leverage myself. I paid for a short film by signing a contract, it's my selling my soul, to a commercial representation that promised me a short film if I signed a contract to be represented by them in the United States. So that was how I funded funeral for lightning, my debut short and then this, I feel like because the Canada Council has provided me this budget for this film I'm working on now, I'm all of a sudden off the hook to make commercials for the first time in my life that I'm like seeing the Canadian dream, took me to the United States to realize the Canadian dream, which like I'm sure you're saying that maybe it's on a nightmare also, but it seems like what a country that we have, we support our artists here and I know that a lot of American friends of mine, they basically, if you look at, if you look at most successful filmmakers in, like if you look at the great American filmmakers they're mostly rich kids, like a lot of them come from tons of, they're, yeah, they all, Spielberg, all of them, they all were like very, very, I mean they could afford NYU. They got their first films paid for by their parents. They're not to discredit them because they're insanely talented, but like it is a rich man's sport, it's like, it reminds me of like people who compete in the Olympics in horseback riding and you're like, how did they get to me? It's like, oh, because they are Bill Gates' daughter or Bruce Springsteen's daughter or whatever, so like you, it feels like if you want to get really good at like, yeah, if you need to own a horse, so how do you own a horse? So what are the scrappy ways to get a horse? It's like volunteer at a barn, steal a horse. What do you, yeah, I don't know, yeah, work at a camp, that shovel horseshed. So I guess like for me, it was like, you got to ride if you made horse music videos. Yeah, maybe it's something, rented a horse for the purpose of a commercial, or made horse food commercials. We're really exhausting the horse metaphor. This is a bad man of work. Anyway, go ahead. No, no, that's a good segue. Kevin? I was just gonna echo what Emily said in that like, we were really lucky actually to be in Canada, despite whatever, what I was talking about were kind of the universal stresses of being an independent filmmaker, being an independent artist. I don't think it's about Canada, but Canada, like I remember the first time I went to Sundance, which was with a movie called Fido, and that was really eye-opening because I realized to a bunch of American independent filmmakers, we're the envy of the rest of the independent filmmaking community in North America, because as Emily was talking about, you either have to be rich to make a movie in the States, or the other usual model is like, people are like, okay, I need somebody to foot the bill for my movie, so they go and appeal to a bunch of doctors, dentists, and lawyers to give them money to make a movie. And that's how lots and lots of movies have been made. That's how Coen Brothers made Blood Simple, and there's lots of less illustrious examples, like if you ever want to have a reality check of how unspecial you are to make a film, go to the American film market and discover that 7,000 feature films are made every year in North America. 7,000, and guess what? Most of those don't see the light of day, and yet it's a full movie. It had actors, it had people show up, they managed to convince a bunch of crew to make it, but it's usually crap. And so that's the illustration of the flaw and the design of that model of where you're just appealing to doctors, dentists, and lawyers is because as much as those guys might know a lot about medicine, dentistry, and the law, they don't know what makes a good movie. And in Canada, generally speaking, and there's a million people who disagree with me, well not a million, but there'd be 35,000 people that would disagree, but the people that are the gatekeepers to the money in Canada generally know a thing or two about movies. You might not agree with all their opinions, but at least that's what they do for a living, is read scripts and decide whether a project is worth getting funding. And they're way more qualified than the random neighbor who makes money doing something else that you might appeal to in the States. And so it's actually a pretty good system. And we do have Telefilm Canada, we have Creative BC, we have the Canada Media Fund, and all of those places have an obligation to give money to you, to Canadian filmmakers. You just have to be better than the next person that comes knocking. And so it's still competitive and doesn't mean you always get supported, you might not always agree with their decisions. But if you keep going and knocking on the door on a regular basis, the odds kind of work in your favor eventually. It's just like being an actor. An actor is a terrible life because you're auditioning 100 to 500 times for every time you actually book a part. But same with being a filmmaker or any artist, you just gotta keep trying, you just don't give up, you keep pitching. And in Canada, at least you have a shot. And this is where I'm doing the flip from what I was being all doom and gloom before. So first of all, that's the good news is that you just need to be better than the next person asking for money. But it's also never been more affordable to be a filmmaker because the digital revolution has changed how much it costs to make a movie. When I was making my first short films, like Emily, I was shooting on film. Like a year after I graduated here, I made a short film and we shot it on 35 mil. And to get an Arri BL4, which is like the camera they shot Empire Strikes back on, like cost a bunch of money. And even if you get a huge discount from the camera house, it still is crazy expensive. Just to the undertaking of making a short film cost lots and lots of money. Now that's not the case. You can get a really great prosumer digital camera. Heck, we all know that the creator was shot on a Sony FX3, not expensive camera. And so you can actually access the tools to make a movie. And the other good news part that people don't talk about enough is there's, you know, you're not necessarily ready for this now but in a few years maybe, you can get cast and by that I mean that's just the short hand of like movie stars for more affordable rates than you ever could have before. Up until the financial crash of 2008 to get a movie star in your movie cost you at minimum hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's all different now. And people don't talk about that enough in independent film circles in my opinion. There's this major fragmentation in movies. There's only the low budget stuff and this stuff that costs $200 million. And 200 million to market it, which means it's like usually a half a billion dollar endeavor. So that's like, that's what clogs most of the movie screens is that the stuff on that end. And then there's films that are much more affordable. There's not enough roles in just the MCU, the Marvel Cinematic Universe for all the actors out there. There are lots and lots of actors who want to just keep working. And there's never been a time when more great actors are working in independent art house fair. And that's really encouraging. That was not the case 20 years ago at all. But that's all changed. I mean... Because the scripts are lacking, so they... Well, there's that too. And so they're more interested to do it. But like, you know, the last movie I produced, the Prego Land, which you mentioned, we had Danny Treo and James Kahn, the Lake James Kahn. We got, that was a $1.7 million Canadian movie. And those guys were very affordable. You can always find actors to appear in a film, but the best strategy is to offer them something they're not normally getting. That's how you get somebody who's worth a million to 20 million in somebody else's movie. You can get them for in the tens of thousands if you're offering them a role that they don't normally get. So that's how we got Carrie Ann Moss in Fido. Carrie Ann Moss up until that point had, you know, just come off doing the Matrix movies. And she was like, oh my God, I'm not gonna be able to maintain that as a career choice because I'm getting too old. People won't cast me for the PVC clad Vixen in an action movie. So she wanted to play a maternal, romantic, warm role. And that's what we were offering her. So that's why she did Fido for a much better price than whatever she was paid to do the Matrix movies. Same with Danny Treo in Prego Land. He was known for always playing like the Mexican badass in movies. And we were offering him a comedic part. And he was like, great. I'll show up for a fraction of what I'd normally charge. So those are the good news about why it's an exciting time to be a filmmaker. I'm inspired to get out there now. So what about associations and professional affiliations? Like are you guys joiners? Like how about you, Jen? Is there a group? Like you have to be part of a stunt association, I would imagine. Jen, is there anything that you have joined or become a part of that has helped you? That's a very interesting question. I've not thought about it. Let me think. As a stunt performer, I guess when I think of stunt groups, there's like, I think Stunts Canada, there's like, I think there's a couple, but they're kind of prestigious into some level. Like you can't really join it until you've become really successful stunt performer. And I'm not in any of them yet. But as a stunt performer, I guess it would be like the union, like the performers union. It would be the UBCP Actra for Canada and then for US would be like SAG. And that's just kind of part of the working experience is like once you're in and you get your first credit and you're allowed to work in the union TV shows and films, then that would be the union that you join. And in contrast to like actors and background performers, which has agents like stunt performers, you're kind of independent, you're self-employed. You don't really have an agent to push for you. For me, like personal experience, you basically, you train the skills that you need or that you know, that you basically are good at and you want to specialize in. Because the film is like, it covers many different areas. And for me, it's martial arts and like film fighting and you make a demo reel, you would make a resume, you get like your headshots. And then basically it's just through sending that out to like different coordinators for different shows and then trying to get those opportunities to work on set and then building those trust and relationships so that eventually they'll want to hire you more. But there's not really a group that you join to get work. It's kind of you're your own agent basically. I hope that answers your question. That does, that's a great answer. Emily, how about you? Are you part of like the director's guild or what's your situation? I'm in the DGA, but it hasn't, it's not like the DGA does, you pay the fee and they give you health insurance, maybe if you make the code or shoot days. And then you get to go to some fancy screenings sometimes, but it's like, it's a boys club, I don't know. It's cool. I don't know, I just wanna reiterate the like, you become what you do. So you just keep doing what you want to become by just by doing it. And you guys are in the, you're in the greenhouse. So keep doing, like take advantage of this time where everyone is paying attention to what you're making and you have all the people on hand to do it. And then when you leave this place, keep as hard as it is, keep writing the scripts and getting your friends together to make them on. Like I still shoot on film. So I don't know if it's feasible, but I always try to carve that money out of the budget because I just, I'm in love with celluloid. I just really like it, I can't. 35, yeah. I can't, I don't know. Every time I shoot on digital, I'm just annoyed by like the skin tone and the dynamic range. And I just, I've shot with Alexa a lot. And I just like, I'm just really, I really, I wanna be a filmmaker. I wanna shoot on film, man. I just really, I will sacrifice the whole shoot day for the budget of, and I mean, I shoot a lot on short ends. So which makes it kind of affordable, which is like you can find dealers that will deal you recans and short ends. You just have to, there's maybe as more feasible music videos because you don't need long take. So you can do stuff that's less than four minutes or, you know. Does everybody know what a short end is here? So you guys understand what short ends are. Yeah. So like basically when features are shot on film, the leftover, like they will cut a scene and they'll change the mag. So whatever's left on the, instead of throwing it away, they'll resell it. So it's like a, they'll take the one ever two minutes left of the reel. And so you'll get 200 feet or four inch feet or what, like sometimes off a thousand foot may, you'd, there would be like 500 feet up. Like, like there, there's like, yeah, like, so you, you, then you, you buy, I might like, when I first started, it was 10 cents a foot. Now it's gone up to like 60 cents a foot, but I'm sorry, what was the question again? Well, we're talking about just ways of supporting your career. Like, is there, I guess like you're part of the DJ, you say it's an old boys club. Well, I just know I'm not saying, the DJ, is it, you're saying, well, how will it get you work? Or you just have to, you have to join, you're forced to join. Yeah, what gets you work? Like, is it, you guys are all- You get yourself work. You basically, you, unless you want to make ads, like if you want to make commercials for a living, then you get sent, you have a rep, like I'm with Epoch in the States and they send me, they'll send me, an ad agency will send me a deck and it will be like, whatever, for Nike, and then you have to put together like a 60 page treatment for free and then have a bunch of calls and then you win or you don't win the job and you're pitching against other directors. So that will, that's a bidding process. It takes a few weeks and then, and then the sheets usually last a month or so and then the edit, which is so, whatever, but it's, but that will give you a director's day rate, which is, depending whatever you've worked out with your rep, they, you are able to make a living that way, but if you want to, but then you're very creatively restricted. You're basically just, you have a creative director on set who is delegating to you, essentially the, what they've sold through to the client and the client is very, everyone's very afraid. All the decisions are based on fear of like, you know, either the ad agency is afraid of losing the client and then the client's afraid of not being relevant or not cool or whatever. And so you're trying to like, you're just holding everyone's hand and you're like a therapist to try to make this brand be like, don't worry, you're going to be cool. I'm going to make you look cool. This will be like a great ad. So then you creatively really run dry because you start listening to your instincts, which is also a big threat as an artist because you are constantly just appeasing, appeasing, appeasing the client for aquafina. And you're like, this is going to be really great. Like aquafina. And then you're not listening to the voice inside you. You look at just like your creative drive and your instincts and your vision. Yeah, like the whatever sacred space you have as an artist and that needs to be protected and you can just lose yourself. I know people that went into commercials being like, yeah, I'm just going to do this for a few years and then I'm going to make my feature and they never make their feature. And then all their kids go to private school and they like have two houses and four cars and they're just never getting out of that lifestyle. And so that is a trap of like, if you want to go the commercial profit route or even as a TV show director for hire. I am from the world of like, I want to make films that I want to write and I want to have a really clear, you know, I want to make a piece of work that's my own and like similar to like what I learned here, like being an artist. So I need to raise the money to do that. And it's through like active daily, like hard work of just, I'm writing four hours today. I'm writing a screenplay today and I will sit down and I will write every day. And then when I'm not doing that, I'm writing for grants. And then where I'm going to, I have a management in the States and I'm going, we're going to go shop my script around to studios and to film financers. And that's like, that's where you go and you pitch and try to raise some funds that way. So I think everything is, there's no, there's no like, you're not, it's all about how hard you want to work and how much work you put into getting and how badly you want it. Cause I don't think anyone is, no one's, yeah, there's no other incentive but your own, I think in this, in this game, I think. Great answer. We're kind of running low on time. I just want to give Kevin a little of an opportunity. Like is there an association or something that has helped you that gets you work or is it mostly, is it similar experience to everybody else? It's about building your reputation or what is getting you the work at this point? I mean, I would say more important than joining any particular organization is just like connecting with the community. It doesn't take too much time to get to know everybody in the Canadian film and television landscape. You can certainly get Vancouver done in a year and then you could move on to the rest of the country. And so it's worth like going to film festivals. Like that's, I, the reason I got the aforementioned internship that I did between my third and fourth year was I was volunteering at the Vancouver International Film Festival from like first year. I was, yeah, you get a pass and so you get to go see a bunch of movies at the film festival. And that was my like other film education. And it's kind of connected to all of that. And that's how I got to meet other filmmakers and people. Like as Emily said, you make films with other people. So you need to know how to ask somebody to become your cinematographer, your editor, your production designer. And there's no better way to do that than hang out in film circles. So I'd say, you know, there are organizations like once you're no longer a student, you should join the documentary organization of Canada if you wanna be making documentaries. Or you can, you know, I'm a member of DOC. I'm a member of the Canadian Media Producers Association. I'm a member of the Directors Guild of Canada. But again, I'd say like going to VIF, going to DOCSA, the documentary film festival and going to film festivals. There's a ton of smaller festivals now too. There's Vancouver Short Film Festival, Vancouver Asian Film Festival. There's the Chilwack Film Festival, which actually has really great programming the last couple of years. So like go to film festivals and there's always gonna be talks and panels that you will learn from, but also get to meet other people who are attending those. And there's events and parties. And I find honestly like building your own kind of community of other film friends, that's goes to everything. Both everybody here has been saying is like, you need a community, you need support networks, you need friends who will have your back and kind of help you make a film and also kind of support you in the dark days when it's stressful. So that would be my recommendation instead of an association. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good, yeah, I echo that. Okay, I just, I'm getting the rap signal. For, yeah, I just want to make sure that we get some questions in from you guys. Because it means so generous with their time and with their answers. But I'm thinking that maybe you have some questions that you'd like to, that's what I put on mute. So you might have to get it back, go on. Hello? Yeah. Any questions? There's a question at the back. You're Kevin, right? Okay, yeah. So you mentioned that you were volunteering at the Vancouver International Film Festival. And you know how that's like only in like October to like, that's not great for timing when you're in school, I know that, but. So when you were not able to volunteer in those timelines, was there any other place that you like volunteered or had experiences on other than like the theater thing that you told us about? Like I volunteered on like film sets and stuff. Like in that, I'd do that in the summer when I wasn't, you know, in school. I'm trying to remember. I remember like being a production assistant on some friend's short film or something. Like my brother, my older brother's friend. That's a slippery slope though. And it kind of connects to, you know, some of the, what I'll call it the golden handcuffs that Emily was talking about. Like I know a lot of people, like I don't know if you do want to volunteer in a lower capacity on a film set, because sometimes that can be a trap. People end up like, oh, I'm actually getting great money as a lamp hop or a grip or whatever. And then they work there for 20 years because they get paid really well, but then they never get to make their own films. So more people than not who I know, and Siri didn't understand that. More people than not I know who went into that who like, yeah, I'm just gonna be a PA temporarily to pay the bills and they rise up through the ranks and become a tad, a third, a second, a first AD and then that's their life. And then 20 to 30 or 40 years go by and they never made a film because they were making good money and they bought a house and then they had to feed that. So I am cautious of volunteering on film sets or working on film sets. That's just my opinion, but volunteering for film festivals and there's also organizations, like I said, like the Docks of Film Festival. You can sometimes find things where they need people to help out on weekends. Yeah, I don't know if anybody else has better ideas. I just want to add to that a little bit. Like so it's important and I know you all know this because you're here, you're going to school but there's a distinction needs to be made between all of these guys and the production service industry that is out there that Kevin is referring to. That production service industry is a meat grinder. So what it does, and I've worked in it, what it does is it takes you in as Kevin is saying, gives you a job and it gives you an opportunity and it gives you a chance to make a living but as Emily is also saying, it's very difficult to make your own content at the same time because you're exhausted. You're working 12, 14 hours. Sometimes you're going into OT and the dollar signs are ringing. And so you say to yourself, is this what I want to do? And it only lasts so long because it takes a lot of energy and then you realize you turn around and you've got the four car garage and the, yeah. Zero judgment on that as it comes. If that's your active choice, fine, that's totally fine. The stress I see is from people think that they can do the other thing while doing that. And I just think if you're trying to do both, it's really hard to live two totally different lives at the same time. So if you want to commit to that, if you want to, no, I have zero criticism or anything, but it chooses to work on an American film set and have a perfectly good life. Yeah, and that was what Vancouver offers in a way those choices. But I want to read, but that could also be, that was like my film school experience. Like I don't think I would have been able to make anything if I had not done all those commercials. But, and I have a good friend, Jared Boyce, who's a first AC here. And now he's basically starting a directing career because of all the thousands of hours. He's worked on like 20 features and maybe I'm just quoting, but he's big movies. Like he just did the Nicholas Cage film and he's just, he's just, now he's like, he's starting to, I can see that he's now branching out into directing and I don't think he would have been able to do that had he not had all those thousands of hours on set, but he has definitely grinded himself. Like he's like worked 15, 16 hour days some days and it's, I think that that could be, if you are able to have good boundaries, you just need to not lose track of time and energy and be able to, because you can do, it's like the one for one model of like one for the, which is how, back in the day, Coppola or whatever, they would make a film for higher, like they would make a one for the studio and then one for themselves. And I think that like, I mean, I worked as a nanny and washed dishes and I did like a million, like, like, you know, jobs that weren't in the film world and I, because I had to support myself out of art school for like, yeah, like it was like just scraping by paying rent and it was, you know, I was in Montreal where I didn't really speak French so I was like taking really low like service jobs, like scraping like mopping floors of like a weird, you know, theater and like I was doing, it was busing tables and whatnot, but it was a, I think working in the film world would be more beneficial than that, but having boundaries where you don't lose, don't just get comfortable if that's not, yeah, I think that's the fears that like 20 years go by and you get really comfortable with that steady income and you're known and you can't, the phone's ringing and you don't know when to say like, no, I'm working on my future and I think the cost of living is so high now that it's really, really hard to pay the bills and save up money to make your fashion project and I like Montreal where my rent was $200 a month, you know. In a shoebox? That's crazy. It was maybe that, this was 2012, so maybe I don't, maybe the rent's gone up but the rent control in Montreal, yeah, no, but I mean I had roommates that like rent control in Montreal is like, it's real. Like they can, you can only raise the residential rent by $10 a year legally. So it is one of the cheapest places to live in Canada. So it is like a mecca of artists from like expats from all over the country like move there for that reason because they can live and work for free, like for cheap. So I just don't wanna be misquoted as saying that like, that I just don't, yeah, I don't wanna be misquoted, sorry. That's okay. Can we get to another question? More questions for this esteemed panel? This gentleman right here with the great snacks, by the way. So for, I guess the questions that you guys mentioned, like you wanna work with people you trust in like production and everything, right? But like what happened if you work with new people and then you don't have a trust for them to do the correct work that you wanted? And I mean, of course, like communication is key, but also there's, but sometime you cannot, you just cannot find the right people to do the right thing. Then what should you do to build a trust, like the initial trust before moving forward to the productions kind of thing. So yeah, I guess rephrasing, just like how do you build trust with people in your team kind of thing? Does any one of you wanna take that on? Were you about to? I was gonna say something very quick, very quick. I guess like sometimes through referral is helpful if you have friends that also do the same thing and they work with, you know, have a similar vision or some level of like, you know, visual consistency that you like and be like, hey, who helped you on that? Are they okay with like, you know, maybe working with me or this is what I can offer, maybe I can pitch to them the project, we'll trade and like, it's all a communication, like you said, like, yeah, communication and just trying reputation as well. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the skills of being a filmmaker is you kind of have to learn how to like collaborate in what by most other standards would be a fairly intimate way pretty quickly in short order and you might not have a lot of lead up time with that person beforehand. So you gotta be a good gauge of like, both how to read somebody else, but also communication skills. It really comes down, I mean, that's, you know, most of the job of directing is communication skills, whether it's communicating your vision to your cinematographer so it becomes manifest or to your actors and your cast so that they know what you want and how to make adjustments. It's all really about communicating. But I would say it's, if you're like trying to find who to trust, yeah, you definitely, it's nice to find like a group that you can rely upon and that's why you see lots of great filmmakers work with the same crew over and over and the same cast over and over. It's because they don't wanna mess with something if it's not broke. I mean, Clint Eastwood famously uses the same crew and despite him being my namesake, I do not have any relationship to him. And he like famously, like you don't get on a Clint Eastwood movie unless somebody else dies and that bot becomes vacant. Like his crews are a tight, well-oiled machine for a reason and he kind of get that. Unfortunately in Canada, you rarely get to have that opportunity to build that up because there's a whole bunch of reasons but like you rarely get to work with the same people as often as that. So I find I have had to get, I have a favorite cinematographer who I'd hire for every project if I could but most of the time, well half the time he's just too busy because he's really, really good but like I have had to learn in recent years how to basically get that same kind of connection or kinship with somebody I haven't worked with. And that's hard and it's not ideal but he kind of figured out what I would say though is when you're trying to make your first film you always have to like, yeah, find somebody who has the skills that you don't have whether it be the cinematographer or an editor or whomever. I would always be wary of hiring somebody that's at a way different level than you. You want somebody to be working on the film who's getting as much out of it as you. If you're making your first short film that is a huge deal for you, that's hugely valuable and you might think, oh, I'm gonna hire this person who's got all these huge credits, they might even have big awards, they might have shot movies, lots of people do that and it often creates an imbalance in that kind of power dynamic between those two individuals because that person with way longer resume thinks they know way more than you as the director do because this is your first short film and you are so lucky that they're even dining themselves to be on your set. And you don't want that, that's a really bad toxic, potentially toxic like dynamic. So be wary of that. Hire somebody who may be as inexperienced as you but is talented and has something to prove and is gonna get so much out of working on your film that they're gonna go flat out. You want the person that's there for 14 hours for free because they want to be because they need that film to look great. That's gonna be way more valuable outcome for you. I think that's why the Daniel's success is they had worked with the exact same tight crew from their very first music video to their Oscar winning feature. And I think that even like Paul Rogers who's like edited three films won the Oscar for it. And he's like, during his acceptance speech, he's like, I've only edited three movies guys but and he's winning an Oscar for editing because like they could have gotten like any editor like, you know, making a film with A24 at that level. They were like, no, we're gonna use our turnout for what editor and so he has very few credits but like, I think the reason why they were able to achieve that level of a film which is like the shot list is like illegible like how insanely ambitious it is and what they were able to achieve shooting in Los Angeles for very little money is because when you think of the scope of it, I mean, it's a big budget film but like they were able to get like uncannable amount of shots and the boards are just like mind blowing and that's because they had this like summer camp and it wasn't even like the word that I hear is that nobody felt exploited at all which is like insane for like how many days they shot and how many shots were in a day and what was like on the schedule is just like and you're like, how is that possible that they didn't exploit anybody and no one felt like overworked or exhausted? It's like, because they had these like, you know if you look at the behind the scenes stuff for like what your story is people they were like every morning they did like you all get it together and they did chance and cheering and cheerleading and they like they did like all this ice breaking like fun like silly crazy games with their crew that like brought them all together it's just like yeah like a well-oiled machine and that is like more valuable than having at $200 million I think because if you're just dragging people along like a cult leader and getting them to like, you know motivate them being like come on let's just have one more shot at it and everyone's just like what are we doing and who are you and like versus like you have all your friends that like that they're like this is like, you know what's the next thing like what are we doing like yeah like I see the vision and I'm on board and they're all collaborators like they can also see it's not just you being a crazy like the only enlightened person with the vision everyone else sees the vision too because they're all and you and they all are contributing towards that vision and you're trusting them with their own skills to contribute their unique like they're bringing the caution person feels like they're really contributing something and you really trust them and you give them the creative freedom to make their crazy costumes you know that you can steer and you can give input in but you're really letting them you know be their own artist within your framework so like I just think that's the most valuable thing that I've learned in my 10 years of trying to and also trusting your gut like you really when you meet somebody you have a feeling about them and it's like dating you really have to trust that gut because then later on you're like I should have listened to my gut man I knew first day meeting them like you know after a bad breakup you're like I always knew deep down you really do I really so as has highly recommended as they come you really have to feel them like listen to that gut feeling you have that's it bad breakups do we have another question out there we have time for one more I think no more questions they're like stop talking awesome okay well I want to thank Kevin and Emily and Jen and just they were so giving of their time and really great answers and so without further ado I'll turn it over to the mingling and thank Shannon for putting this together and Jim Ray and Ashley Teresa I'm sorry and Teresa I was blanking on your name for a second I wasn't trying to not remember you okay