 Hey Gumpcon Giants family, Eric Coffey here bringing you another episode of Making a Giant. This is the show where we interview students of ours who won their first contract, second contract or their largest contract. In today's episode Maria Martinez, the host, interviews Miguel Sanchez who when he originally came to us he wanted to pursue career services quickly thereafter speaking with Maria and learning about her story and her journey, he pivoted into the role of a consultant finding and connecting with an IT firm whose potential was this big but they were doing this much. And so from that particular time, he decided to take them into the federal arena, expand on some opportunities that they might have overlooked and then ultimately end up landing a contract sole source for nearly one million dollars. I don't want to take any more of your time. Stay tuned and enjoy this upcoming episode with Miguel Sanchez of Making a Giant. So today we're here with Miguel Sanchez and I know a lot of you have been asking for this. So if this is your first time hearing from him, seeing him, if you're watching on YouTube, I brought him right here for you to answer all of those questions you guys have been asking me because it's better to hear it straight from him. If you're part of our Gumpcon community, you know how essential he is, you know how much he has accomplished. And a lot of you guys, you tell you reach out to him, but a lot of you guys don't. So here's your chance to hear his story, listen how he did it and take all those little nuggets that he's about to give you because you could have the same success that he is having right now. So Miguel, thank you, thank you, thank you. I know we go back a long time, but I am so excited because I knew talking to you that first time on the phone that you were a go-getter, that you were going to make this happen regardless of what's to come. You were going to figure it out and you have. So I'm very excited to have you feature here as one of our own success stories. Maria, I just want to say thank you for your mentorship, your guidance. Thank you for having me on today. Thank you to E, Eric, Kofi is the world's most commonly known or the first to him. And you know, shout out to everybody from the gupcon community. I'm happy to be doing this and hopefully you get some help and some nuggets out of this that will motivate you to take the next steps. All right. So a lot of you guys may not know this, but Miguel was a marine. He was out there doing it for all of us out here and then when he left the marines, what did you do? Yes. So when I left the marines, I went straight into college. I was so concerned with not having any, any dead time between, you know, my end of active duty service and coming into the civilian world. So literally my end of active duty service date was January 2nd, 2013. That was my first day of college night school. I didn't want any dead weight. What did you plan a major in or what did you major in? So at the time I had no clue. You know, I grew up in, in, in a tough inner city neighborhood. So college wasn't even, you know, a thought for me. I played sports as well. I played baseball for a high school called Eastside High School in Paterson, New Jersey, which the movie Lean on Me is about. Did you grow up in New Jersey? I did. I did. I did. I grew up in Dominican Republic for a little bit then in 1999. So I was about eight or nine years old when I came to America. Oh, wow. Do you remember? I came when I was very young from Nicaragua. Did you remember growing up in Dominican Republic? I don't. Absolutely. For sure. 100%. Yeah. Oh, okay. I can picture it right now. Oh, that's awesome. So at eight, you came to America straight to New Jersey? Yeah. We came through New York, Harlem, New York and we came to, to Paterson, New Jersey. I think we lived in Pasek for a little bit, maybe like two weeks or something like that. But most of the time, my life was in Paterson, New Jersey. That's the city that I'm from and knowing love. So yeah. So college wasn't even, it was, it was, it was, you know, like any inner city, man. If you're around hanging around the wrong crowd, you can really quickly get into the wrong things. Thankfully for me, I had kind of two sets of friends. I had my friends that were kind of in the streets and then I have my friends from school that played ball with me. So you know, I got, I got to see the best of those worlds, right? So after high school was finished, I quickly realized that, you know, my friends that played sports and did well for themselves, they went on to get like dorm rooms and were in colleges and I would go visit them and it was so like dope and amazing to me. And my street friends, you know, they weren't doing much, right? So I felt like I was in limbo. I saw a recruiter in the mall who had on the Marine Corps uniform, his blues, and I went up to him and I said, Hey man, why are you dressed like a nutcracker? Now that I'm a Marine, right, it's extremely disrespectful what I said, but it caught his attention and he explained it to me. We went to the recruiting office and you know, the rest is history. You know, I was sold. I wanted to be a Marine. I wanted to be the best. Big shout out to my Marines and all my military veterans. So. How long were you in the Marines? I was in the Marines for four years, four years. I went to, I was in Second Battalion, Second Marines, which is an infantry division in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. We did Afghanistan in 09 and then we were off the coast of Libya in the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit for about, I want to say maybe, you know, somewhere between 15 and 18 months, something around. Wow. So yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. I loved serving. A lot of people didn't want me to get out, but you know, my trainer thought was, Hey, you got to get out at some point. So I might as well do it while I'm young and curious and want to take on the world. So, you know, from there, like we were talking about, you know, I went, I went straight into school and I, to answer your question, I had no clue what major I wanted to major in. So I did an associate's degree first at night and in the days, I knew I had to get a job because although I had no corporate world experience, I understood that they value education and all those checkboxes, right? But they also value real world experience. So I worked for Bank of America. As a teller? As a teller. And the way I got that job is hilarious because, you know, I started applying for jobs and, you know, you have to send your resume through these like portals, these digital portals. And, you know, I'm a very common sense based person. So I asked myself, I started asking people, what happens once you put your resume in the portal, like where does it go? And no one knew, you know, it just went into a black hole, like an abyss, right? So I was like, well, forget that. I'm going to go straight to the institutions. I printed a 50 resumes. My wife is my witness. They were terrible resumes, by the way. They were three pages long with a staple, right? Here I am. I don't even have a bachelor's and I have a three page resume. Yeah, I was like, that's a lot of history for somebody that just has high school and Marines. Right, exactly. So I started just walking into financial institutions and I walked into Bank of America and I said, I had a suit on and I asked, can I speak to your manager? And the guy was like, sure. He thought I was a client because of the way I was dressed. And, you know, the manager came and I said, hey, sir, my name is Miguel. I'm a Marine. I go to school across the street. I'm looking and he cut me off. He was like, stop talking. You're hired. You start on Monday. So that's how I got a job at Bank of America. You're confident. And I was crazy. It was even crazier confident. I don't know which it is. To this day. They both start to seize. Right, yeah. It's a little bit of both. I sprained it. Okay. So you were going to school and you were working and when I came back to South Florida, I did both and I give it to everybody that could do both because that's hard. It's different. I was blessed that I didn't have to work and go to school at the same time. I give props to everybody that does that because it's hard. It's difficult. It is difficult, but to me, you know, I think, you know, all of us as human beings, it's incredible what you can do when you think something's necessary. Right. So to me, I deemed it absolutely necessary. So I, you know, I just put one foot in front of the other and, you know, it turned out to be great. What was your goal at that time to beat? Well, I had several goals at that time. I think I've always been a person that's goal oriented. So, you know, that's good. And the Marine Corps 100% taught me that. So I had several goals at that time. One was to be the very best, you know, sales rep that I can be for Bake of America. And then on the scholar side or the school side, excuse me, or academia side was to just get the highest GPA that I can. Right. So I think I had a 3.4 or something like that, which isn't honors or anything, but it's pretty cool. And, you know, I became the top sales guy for Bake of America. So I got a bunch of awards. They, I was so good. They started sending me to different branches to get the numbers up. So it was, that was my first exposure to business development and, you know, sales metrics and having those kind of goals. Okay. So that after you got your associate, what did you do next? So I majored in finance after. So things were going really well in Bake of America. After six months, I got recommended for a promotion, a personal banker promotion, but I did not take it. And the reason why was because after learning about yield and all that stuff, which it doesn't really matter what that is, just like rates and stuff. I was talking to the mortgage guys because I was so, I became so good at giving them mortgage referrals that they, you know, they got to know who I was. And, you know, I was like, okay, what is this and what is that? And I kept asking questions. As you know, Maria, I ask a lot of questions. So I was so inquisitive that the guys were like, you know, you need to do an internship on Wall Street. That's what you need to do because you're still a student, right? And then there you're going to, you know, have the opportunity to learn everything that you want to learn while still being a student. Next day I resigned and within a week, you know, I interviewed for an internship on Wall Street. Some people would hear Wall Street and be like, who me? Like, no, no, no. You're like, okay. Yeah, there's that, the sea again, the crazy confidence. Yeah, like I said, you know, Maria, I'm not going to sit here and, you know, portray like I'm some, you know, person that has everything figured out. I think it was just a little bit of just ignorance and just, just a little bit of ignorance. Like, I didn't know what I didn't know, so I can't be afraid of what I don't know. So it just, I literally just said, okay, I hear what you're saying, right? And I'm going to do what you're saying. It was just that. It wasn't, it wasn't like I had it figured out. I didn't know if it was going to work out, but I went back and took what people told me just like I did here in GovCon and I just applied it. Did you do finance and Wall Street? Yeah, I worked in business development on Wall Street and it completely changed my life. You know, we, we did a lot of state and local stuff. So that was my first exposure to the government contracting space. Okay. I was going to ask you because that's the one thing I didn't know about you is where did you first hear about government contracts? Right. It was the state and local, the thing there. So I worked for a service disabled veteran bank, investment bank, right? And then they did business with Fortune 500 companies. They also did business with state and local governments, but they didn't do any federal business, right? So that was my first exposure to government contracting, but my activity was primarily on the Fortune 500 side. So I worked with the biggest companies in the world that you could think of across America or Wall Street and I used to go visit them all the time. So it gave me an opportunity to be well traveled across the nation. So, you know, any Fortune 500 company you can think of, right? McDonald's, Johnson & Johnson. Well, we didn't actually do business with Johnson & Johnson, but we did meet with their treasury team and stuff. We spoke with them on phone, but like Pfizer was a client, you know, Baxter, people that own the Bisco, which is Montalice International, they were a client of mine. So yeah, it was just, it was amazing. It was a phenomenal experience. We got to build it from the ground up. So, you know, that ignorance, like I said earlier, I don't even know if that's the right adjective for it, but that's what we're going to call it for the sake of this interview. It's just not knowing. Someone just put a list in front of me like, we need you to get in touch with the people at this company. I didn't know what a Fortune 500 company was, right? So I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it. For you, they're people. Right, and they worked out, right? But that's the good thing about you is that you took that ignorance and you're like, if I don't know it, why should I be afraid of it? A lot of people are the opposite. A lot of people is like, if I don't know it, I'm terrified of it. Yup, yup, yup. So yeah, I just didn't know. I didn't know any better. So, and it worked out. You know, I became one of the number one guys across the entire bank. I don't 100 people. To this day, people are hitting me up saying that the clients are mentioning me. And I think that's because, you know, I treated them like just regular people. You know, I didn't treat them like anything other than that, so. It's crazy to hear that how all those things that you've done and all those opportunities meeting with all these companies, treating people like people, it has helped you into what we are doing now. Because now you have the confidence that you're able to just speak to someone, regardless of what their title is, regardless of what company there are, regardless of who they're representing, that you're able to go up to them and just talk to them. You didn't have that fear a lot of us have of like, what am I going to say? Well, how am I going to do it? You just talk to them. Right, yeah, I think 100%. I didn't, you know, growing up, I didn't know that whatever you do naturally, right, can pay, right, or can be monetized. I didn't know that. So I've always been an extroverted person, you know, even when we were little kids, you know, trying to talk to girls and it's like someone's like, go over there and talk to the girls. I would be the guy to be like, yeah, okay, talk to the girls, you know, so yeah, I didn't know that you can quantify something like that or monetize, excuse me, something like that. So I think it is a bit of kind of just my natural personality, my natural habitat, but you know, I did in all of those positions, once I got my foot in the door with my natural personality, I did do everything in my power to be the very best that I could be, whether that was the Marines, whether that was, you know, Wall Street, or even now in government contracting. So you're in Wall Street and you heard about state and local contracts, but I still don't know where you, the idea sparked in your heads like government contracting is next. Yeah, so that's a great question. I just start continuing to invest in my personal professional development, reading books and, you know, being more financially literate. So when I got my first big performance bonus on Wall Street, you know, the first thing I did with it was buy a multifamily property because I read a lot of books. One of the books I read was Rich Dad Poor Dad. Oh. It's a really popular book, right? Yes. And, you know, I was listening to some podcasts about personal development and all that stuff, some real estate podcasts. And you know what's funny? I've never heard of that book until I met Eric. That was the first book he told me to read. And I actually, when I read it, I was like, oh, wow. Like, huh, I've never knew anything about anything. So that book is a very good one. Yeah, shout out to Robert Kiyosaki. He's a Marine as well. So, shout out to him. He's the guy that's the author. So I just kind of put myself in that environment where I was just listening to podcasts and learning and learning and learning. So when I got my first big bonus, I guess acting out of a place of scarcity and saying, man, what if I lose my job or whatever? Like, I started having those thoughts. So I started investing my money in real estate and multifamilies. And then I was in my job and literally I just got the thought one day to answer your question. Like, what happens if I get hit by a bus? What happens if I lose my job? I just thought, okay, my kids can't inherit my degrees. My kids can't inherit my job. And, you know, I've always wanted a family at some point. So it just didn't make sense to me anymore. So some people call me crazy for leaving a job where, you know, there was a lot of money on the table, but it just didn't make sense anymore. I saw how much I was, you know, helping this company progress with my, you know, blood, sweat, and tears. Because it was a very demanding job, right? All that success didn't come just because I died, right? Like, you know, I would get up at 3.50 in the morning, right? To be at the trading desk at 6. And there was no like, you clock out at 5. That doesn't exist on Wall Street. You are putting in 12 to 18 hours a day. So, yeah, so it was very demanding. But, you know, after a while, it was just like, this doesn't make any sense because I'm not a owner in this company. Nor is there a pathway for me to own some equity at some point. And ownership is extremely important to me. So it just didn't align with, you know, kind of my future and what I wanted to do. So I knew that I was a veteran with a service rating, right? I was getting compensated. And that's all you needed to get that service to say certification, right? So once I put that together, I started hearing about government contracting. I'm like, what is this, right? Because you're Googling, you land up on the SBA's website and all that stuff. And then, you know, I just Googled a course on federal government contracting. And I saw GovCon come up and, you know, that was the start. And just like how you take everything in, you're just like, okay, I'm going to do this. Yeah. I'm going to do it. I paid for the course and I started diving into the videos. And then obviously, you know, or for those who are not aware and are not a part of our family and community here, you know, every periodically we meet online through whether that's through Zoom or whatever. We, there used to be events. I never got to make it because the pandemic hit, but and we talk as a community and we put our problems out there, right? And everybody throws in their suggestions and we try to help one another out. So I love that because I come from the military, you know, and I come from a big family background. So it was just, it felt like home to me. So I knew I was in the right place. And then obviously, you know, I had you, I had Eric to help me out if I had any challenges that I was facing. At the beginning, and I say, I always ask people this because it's very new to us and you take things and you learn about them. And, but I want you to break down like how did you learn about government contracting? Now you have this course. Now you have everything in front of it. How did you process breaking it down to for you to be able to understand it? Because for me, it was very overwhelming when now that we say SBA, IDIQ, all these terms, I get it now, but before I did it, I was fortunate enough to work with Eric. So he was able to break it down for me. How were you, how did you take the course and start breaking things down for them to make sense? Right. So, Maria, as you know, I never refer to myself as a super duper intelligent person, right? And the fact that I just used the word super and duper might be indicative of that. But I would say that I always like to bring things to my level of understanding, you know, a way that I can understand that has to make sense to me. And I think that's the case for everybody. If it makes sense to you, it'll be easier to make the tough decisions because you can lean back on your understanding and then the emotion is removed, right? So when it came to government contracting at the federal level, you know, I started to quickly understand, oh, it's doing business with the government. So, okay, that's what we're doing on that side of the floor with state and local stuff, right? So I used a little bit about what I had exposure to, but also I started to try to, you know, just dumb it down, right? Be a minimalist. And then, you know, it occurred to me that all this is, all government contracting is, is the government buying products and services and the way that they buy products and services. That's it. That's where I started, right? That's simple enough for me. So for everybody out there that's confused and is worried about, you know, RFPs and IDIQs and all this stuff and left and right, I think you need to start at a simple place, right? Start with one foot in front of the other, right? You have to do that to be able to, to run at some point one day. So that's where I started. I just simplified. And now you know that it's what, the government buys a product and service. Now you had a breakdown of like how they would buy products and services. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's very different because it's not like how you and I buy something, right? Like if we want a t-shirt, we want Amazon, we go to the mall, we try on the t-shirt, maybe we don't, maybe we return it or whatever. Government doesn't do that. If the government wants a t-shirt, they're like, we want a t-shirt. It needs to be blue. The neck collar needs to be three and a half inches from the bottom of the ear. The pocket needs to be centered across the, like, you know what I mean? So they're very specific. Right. Exactly. They're a very picky client, but there's, it's only just shopping at the end of the day. That's, it's a very good way to put it. Yeah, they're very picky, but they're at the end of the day, they're telling you exactly what you need yourself to find and provide it. When you started diving into government contracting, do you, did you have an idea of where did you want to take it? What did McGill want to do with it? Did he want to sell these products? Did he want to find someone to sell the products? Yeah. Did you know of what you wanted to do in government contracting? Right. So I would say I did not know, but I knew this. I knew what I could do with my natural personality because I had literally, you know, done it on Wall Street and I, and, you know, I monetized it. So I knew, hey, I'm doing this. I'm bringing this much revenue to an organization. So what I wanted at first out of all of this was sustainability and more controlling ownership of what I'm doing. So that's what I wanted at first. You know, since then things have changed, but I'll try to keep it there and let the conversation progress nationally. So, you know, that's what I wanted at first. Now what I knew was that I could be a part of a team via business development. I also knew that I didn't have to have all the knowledge, right, because much like I did in my previous roles, there was a lot of times where I started the conversation, but then when things got too technical, I brought in the guy or the girl that knew the information and can speak in depth, right? And I knew that that's all I had to do, right? So I knew that although I didn't know what I wanted to do specifically, I knew that if I was a part of a team, I could pick up the phone. I could set up meetings. I can do all the stuff that a lot of people get social anxiety doing, right? And that came very easy to me. And I know because I've spoke to you way at the beginning when you were just starting that, I remember you called me and you're like, no, I'm going to use my services disabled certification. I'm going to be the prime and I want to do courier service. I don't know how you got to courier services by the way now, but you were very strong hold on like, you wanted to do courier services as a prime. So take us back to that. Like when you were just set on, this is what I was going to do. Yeah, so I think again, I've given you some really, really great examples of where not having that knowledge or that little bit of ignorance worked in my favor, but it can also work against me. And I think in that instance, it did, right? Now I know how important those things are, having past performance, right? Knowing how to explain the product or service from a technical standpoint to the government or putting it all together and displaying what it is that you're bringing to the table via a proposal or via a source of soft notice response. While I knew some of those things then via the course, I don't think that I thought that I could get around it somehow and that was a complete mistake. Yeah, because you thought your certification was your ticket to getting a contract just because I have this is I'm going to do it just because I hold this piece of paper. Like you said, and I guess that's where you, the clarification came into your brain. I don't have the past performance. I don't have the financial ability probably to run a million, $2 million contract. I don't have all this. So now I have to accept the reality. Yeah. And now it's time to move on. Some people might quit because they're like, I don't have it. Okay, I can't do this. But you started, I could see the gears turning of how you're going to figure it out now. Now you had to figure out a different route. So when did that come clear to you? Right. So there's, yeah, in addition to the things that you're mentioning, I'll give you a perfect example, a government approved accounting system. Like something as simple as that, right? Like that's also a part of the mix, right? So there's a lot of things, there's a lot of things that I just didn't take into account and didn't take a step back and educate myself on but much like most of the small business community that get these certifications, you know, we're under this impression that they're going to get us, you know, all the contracts are going to start flooding and that's not the case, right? And also that all you're going to do is I have a product or service, the government buys it. Okay, I have it. Here's a certification. Here you go. And that's all you have to do. Like you said, all these accounting programs, all the different people, all the pieces, putting a contract, like it's more than just, hi, I'm here, here's what I could do. And it's easy as that. It's not Amazon, you click a button and you get paid. Right. So yeah, when I fell on my face trying to do go that route, right, I knew it wasn't a matter of quitting because when you look back, it's like, man, I'm not where I want to be, but I'm further along than when I started. So there's no point in going back because literally going back to quitting or to the start is literally like that's too far now. Like you're closer to the end. So that's kind of how I thought about it. So it wasn't a matter of quitting. To me, it was a matter of pivoting, right? That's when, you know, it dawned on me like, okay, what do you know how to do? What have you done? What have you been successful in? And I just started taking those things into account. Okay, you can pick up the phone. You know how to cultivate relationships, right? You know how to build a pipeline, clients and opportunities. Let's go back to that. Let's revert back to that. Let's get back to what you know. Let's get you back in your natural habitat. And I think the consultant route was a perfect opportunity for me to do something like that. Yeah, and that's a very good point for people to listen to is take what you're good at. Take your strengths and use those to like you say, pivot into a different direction. Maybe some of us are not that extrovert person that are able to pick up the phone to connect the people and not afraid to ask the questions and things like that. But that is your strength. It's been your strength since the beginning. Since the days outside going talk to the girls or telling the Marine he's dressed like a nutcracker. Like you know your voice and your personality was your strength. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's a lot of, you know what, Maria, like a lot of people are like, I don't know what industry to get in. And that was the other thing. Like now you know this is your strength. Now you know, okay, I'm going to be a consultant. Now the next question people have to ask themselves and a lot of people get stuck here. And I mean stuck like they just can't figure it out. I was like, what do I do with it? No, right. So I would say if you're, if you're contemplating, you know, what industry you want to get into. I would say, what do you do at work currently? Because a lot of these things that you're doing at word might be being, you know, bought by the government via service or product or whatever the case might be. So is what you're already doing that you know you can do? Is that being purchased by the government? Figure that out, right? What max code is it, right? Like what agencies are buying it, right? And GovCon, that community walks you clearly through those steps and how to do that. So now that you wanted to be a consultant, what was your first one? So I'm not aware of your service stuff. I knew I understood construction pretty well because of you, Eric and the community, right? But I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that. So I just literally said, okay, again, I like to bring things to a level where I can understand how much money do I want to make, right? How much money do I need to sustain myself right now? I bought a little bit of real estate. I did this, so this is what I have coming in. And some of the larger contracts were in construction and IT, right? And I started there. I was like, okay, I'm going to try to, you know, go with these two industries. And I started with IT. But no, no, you did not start with IT. I remember you had a company and you were talking to them because you knew someone in there, but the guy never calls you back. You had the first meeting. Oh, so no, that was before I did the courier service thing. Okay. Because I remember you're like, they're not calling me back. They say they're going to call me back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was earlier in the story. When I first, first, first took the court, I didn't even finish the course at that point. Okay. That was a logistics company that had Hispanic foods. That was a competitor to like Goya, if you're early of that company. But yeah, that was where. Okay. Because I remember that. Once I fell on my face afterwards, the first two industries that I turned to were construction. Construction and IT. And you know construction and a lot of people say this. And I've heard one of Eric's podcast gets it. Construction is the people. Yeah, it makes a lot of money, but the profit margin is very low. And they say construction is the only industry you could go and thinking you're going to make, let's say a hundred thousand dollars and come out owing a million. Wow. It's one of those industries that if something goes wrong, if you didn't read that scope the right way or all these things might happen, your profits just all of a sudden go down. Well, then I'm glad I picked IT. Did you? It's a lot of work. You picked IT based on how much you want it to make. Not on that you love IT or you understood IT. And I bring this point up because a lot of people want to do something they know. And I tell people, at least pick something that you're interested in. And my biggest thing is when I bring your name up, but do like Miguel. Miguel didn't pick something he knew. Miguel didn't pick something he was passionate about. Miguel didn't pick something that he wanted to build on. Miguel picked it based solely on the fact that they bring a lot of money. Yeah. And I would say to that, Maria, you know, the money stuff, that's surface. I think it was, you know, I think people just need to turn back to themselves. Like, what you know in comparison to what you can know out there in the world is always going to be very small in comparison to what you can know, right? So I had to ask myself certain questions. What money do you need to live? Can you live off 10 grand? Can you live off 20 grand, 50 grand? What is it? Right? And I answered those questions, right? And when I answered those questions, I had a compensation structure, right? I wanted to get a certain percentage of the contracts that I helped win. Most of the contracts were of this size, right? The numbers don't even matter, right? When I do my percentage structure and then I look at the number that I want to make, what does that look like, right? And people try to complicate things like, but I don't know this, but I don't know that. And yes, I think the things that you don't know, right, are always going to be larger in comparison to the things that you know. We all have limits, right? But that's not a bad thing, right? You need to understand those limits and use them to the best of your ability. Okay, so now that you understand that you need a contract this size because you want this much because some contracts are very small. So your percentage could be nothing at the end of the day for what you want to live on. There's an important part there. So you picked IT and now you understand the process because you finished the course because you said you had to set your foundation first. You had to understand it completely because you don't want to go out there and talk and not know half the things you're saying. So now you understood it. Now you didn't fail. You just had to pivot. You pivot to, now I know what industry I'm in. Yeah, now I know what industry I'm in. What did you do next? So next, what I did was, again, I turned to me. I looked inward and I said, what states do I want these clients in, right? I had that exposure of having clients across the nation when I worked with Fortune 500. You are stuck to your small little state. Right, exactly. I said, okay, what states do I want to travel to? Am I willing to travel to, right? I'm willing to drive all up and down the East Coast and even the South, right? Like past Washington, DC. So I was like, okay, I'm going to pick five states across the Eastern border and a couple in the South So I think I picked Connecticut, New Jersey, New York and I'm in the New Jersey, New York area, right? I'm like 10 miles from Times Square in New York right now. I picked those three. I picked Maryland and I think I picked one more but I can't remember what it is. Virginia probably. Again, I turned back to me and I had to answer these big questions that are like just looming over you and you think you don't know how to figure them out or where to start. I turned back to myself and I asked, where do I want to travel and have a client, right? And that's what I did. So I started with the, obviously, you know our nation's capitals of Washington DC. So I started with the states that I picked closest to DC and I worth my way up and I started with Maryland. I mean, you know, I got my first client before I even got out of Maryland. So I never explored the other states. So what strategy did you have in picking a client? Yeah, so the strategy that I had was I try to leverage what I already know in every capacity, right? So what I mean by that is this, the coursework, my experience in the Marines, my experience on Wall Street. What I did was Wall Street entirely operates off of one thing, arbitrage. Anybody tells you differently cannot explain it simply and simply put trading, investment, all of it is arbitrage, right? Like you want to find a security or a stock or a bond or whatever that's either priced too low, buy it and then sell it higher at its intrinsic value or price too high and then short it, right? And vice versa. So I took that concept and I used it with clients. I picked the, I tried to find an 8A client because again, when I crunched my numbers, that $4 million soul source threshold, it worked with what I wanted. Right? And my compensation structure. So I was like, okay, I'm going to pick an 8A client because now I understood the certification isn't everything but it is something that you can leverage if all the stars align, right? So yeah, I, man, I lost my train of thought. Their strategy and picking your client. Yeah, so the arbitrage strategy. I found an 8A client in the state that I was interested in doing business in the industry that I was interested in doing business and that was killing it, completely killing it, right? And then I found 10 or 20 companies that fell short of that but had all the same characteristics, right? So if they had let's say 10 employees or 20 employees, they were in the same state. They had all the same certifications when it comes to IT ISO 9001, ISO 20000, all that stuff. They weren't both 8A, whatever, all of that stuff. It's like, you should be here, but you're here. And I started picking up the phone to try to find out why are you not here? What can I do to help you get there? And it worked, right? I had a list of, Maria, I kid you not, I had a list of 7,000 companies to call. Across all of those states that I mentioned, across all of that, I had a list of 7,000 clients to call and I had a strategy I said, every day I'm going to call at least 25 companies. And I didn't even get to 10 before I got my first client. But you were ready to make 7,000 phone calls. I was ready. I was ready to do whatever it took. And we started doing this podcast just because we want people to hear that it takes work. It takes time. It takes like, it's not going to be quick and easy. Like we want people to see, we celebrate your successes, but we want people to see what it took to get there. Because it's the reality of it. It's going to take work and it's going to take time. And if you are mentally and physically and every single part of it ready, then it's possible. It's going to happen. For sure, for sure. 100%, yeah. You know, I think it was Derek Jeter who said, and I'm a Red Sox fan, but everybody loves Jeter. He's the captain of baseball. There's no excuse for anybody to outwork you, right? And I really, I subscribed to that. I believe that, right? Like some people like myself are born, you know, third world countries come here and live in the inner city. And that's where we start, but, you know, there's no excuse for somebody to get up earlier than you or, you know, make as many phone calls as you do, right? So that type of stuff is what's within your control. And I'm very, very heavy on focusing what I can control. That's awesome. So now that you've found a client and you picked up the phone, you sold them on how you understood it, because I think the important part for a lot of people, for me when I try to explain it to you is I could only explain to you how it made sense in my head. You took what I did or what we were doing and you had to, like you said, you simplified it to how you understood. You understood Wall Street. Yeah, I have no clue how that works, but you do. And maybe the way you broke it down to understand it for Miguel, it's how other people have to see it. Don't see it in Eric's side. Don't see it in the other person's side. You have to see it in your own eyes for it to make sense, because now you take it and you work it like you did. So this client said, yes, I'm interested. Right. And then the next step is to basically meet with them, but you are in a different state. Yeah, I'm in a different state. And I was doing all of this in the midst of a pandemic. So there was no visiting people, right? Which was a good thing at this time, because that means you don't have to travel. Right. It was a great thing. It was a great thing. And yeah, I just was honest with the client. I told them about the successes that we've had in this community on the side of construction. And I said, I don't know much about IT. I don't know anything at all about IT actually. But what I do know how to do is I know how to pick up the phone. And I know that you know a lot about IT and you rather be managing IT contracts. You don't have time to do the things that I have all the time in the world to do. Set up meetings, pick up the phone. When we have interest from a client, follow up with them, I can do all those things. And the gentleman was like, hey, you know, I'm very interested in that. Let's continue to talk. And, you know, we came up with an agreement that made sense for both parties and we signed it. And at this point, you didn't have a contract. All you did was sell them on what value you are going to bring to their company. Because you show them and how my dad says it, black and white, that you are at the same level as this other company except that they are killing it and you are not. So you have the potential because you have everything to save, but why? You found that missing puzzle piece that in their case was Miguel. Yeah, I found that arbitrage between the Rockstar, A to A company in the state I wanted to work in, in IT that was killing it. And then the guys that weren't doing this great, right? So yeah, I think it was a good strategy looking back. But like, I'm going to keep reiterating in this interview there was a little bit of ignorance there. You know, I just kind of turned back to what I know and it worked. It worked out. So now you have a client. Now the real work begins. The real work begins, but you know what? I had been entrenched into, you know, our community, what we were doing. If I had any questions, I always reached out to you, Maria. So I knew the basics, right? I knew what an RFP was. I knew what an RFQ was. I knew what a source of salt notice was. I knew how to manage all of the databases that are out there, whether it's beta.sam, FPDS, you know, I knew how to take those codes, those contract codes and figure out what offices they belong to. I knew what an Aztabu was, which is not a person that can hand you a contract, but they are a center of influence. They can communicate with people who do hand out contracts. So I knew all of these things, right? That, you know, that client that isn't succeeding enough or at the level of the Rockstar company that was used as the baseline, they might not know all these things, right? And they don't have the time either to understand them or do them. Exactly, because it does take a lot of time, right? But I knew all those things. So I knew, I think the moral of the story is, you know, while we joke about this whole like little sprinkle of ignorance, I think it's a lot of us feel like we don't know enough, but the truth of the matter is you know enough to get out there and make mistakes and keep going, right? Because some of that other knowledge that you're missing only comes by putting one foot in front of the other, right? So don't be a perpetual learner and just want to be learning and taking courses and learning all of the time. You know, you know enough to get out there and make something happen. So get out there. You know, people are going to hang up on you sometimes. People are going to tell you to go to you know where. That's just a part of the game. You got to be ready for that. That's very true. And I think the ignorance does bring you success because you're not afraid. Like it's like hoping for the best, expecting the worst, but you're going to keep going regardless. Yep. And I've never heard it put that way. Ignorance brings you success, but you know, in this conversation with context, I agree 100%. And it's worked for you. So it's just a fact. Yeah, with this context, in this conversation, it's true. You know enough to get out there. You know, your problem is you think that there's more that you need to know. And I tell people, I'm like, it's very important that you have that foundation. But at some point, you have to put it into practice. You have to put it into action. Because if you put it in your head, like you said, I don't know enough, you're never going to do it because there's always going to be new things to learn. Because if we were two years ago, if we didn't think we knew how to use FBO, well, if we kept trying to learn it, well, it just changed into beta SAM. So now you have to learn something new. So now I'm stuck in learning something new. So now you started the work, the research, the everything. And the reason we have you here is because you're successful in all the steps you took. So how did you find this opportunity? Right. So Maria, I think before we get to that, let me take a step back for the people that are wondering like, what did you say to the client? Yes, thank you. You know, all that stuff, right? Because I understand our audience here who's listening to this. I would say that I took maybe two weeks to prepare myself before I made those 7,000 calls, right? I made a little script that said, hello, my name is Miguel. Or hello, can I speak to Mr. and Mrs. So-and-So? You know, I want to talk to you about X, Y, and Z. So the work that you're talking about, I did a little bit of it or a lot of it, excuse me, preemptively to prepare myself for those calls. In case the conversation went in the direction of, well, what contracts are out there, right? Do you know who your top 10 buyers are of the services that you're trying to provide? No? Well, here's three. You know, their forecast list has about 10, 20, 30 million and opportunities coming up. 80% of those are A&A set aside. I'm just using an example numbers. Do you know this? And then you let the client talk and then you'll figure out that they don't know this, right? And they need somebody who thinks this way to come in and help. So I want to definitely preface with the fact that, you know, I prepared myself before I picked up that phone on what I was going to say, you know, what tools I had in my disposal, which was, you know, a target market list, as we call it in our community. And, you know, I had some forecasted opportunities for at least three of the top 10 agencies that were relevant to this client. And you said it, the good thing about you is that you did your target market list even before you had a client. You just knew what industry you were going to touch on and you took that and you did your own research already. And like I tell people, at least know what are the top 10 agencies that are buying your products or services. And I tell them like in 2020, there was this many contracting actions in our state alone for your specific industry. And that alone shows your knowledge. Right. And like you said, you prepared for these conversations. It's not you blindly picked up the phone either. And it didn't take you a day to do it. You actually took the time, did the two weeks. You've talked to thousands and thousands of people at every level, yet you still took the time to script out what exactly you're going to say. And just, I think you being prepared helped you achieve where you were because once they heard your voice, it's not just another sales call. Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, I also understand like sometimes you get one shot, you know, these people are getting voicemails and calls left and right every single day. So if they give you a minute of their time, you better know what you, you know, you're going to say, but don't let that stop you from making a call. Sometimes you're going to learn what to say after 25 people hang up on you. You got to sit there and again, look inward, right? It's like, what am I doing wrong? What can I be different? Why are they not listening? Right. And then adjust, adjust fires. We say in the, in the, in the Marine Corps. That's, that's very good. That's a very good advice. And then because a lot of people do ask me, what do I say? Okay, what do I say? And even now that I told them, I'm going to go sit with a client. I'll let you guys know what research, what things I took. And they're like, huh? I'm like, you have to take something in order to convince them in order to show that you are valuable, that you are knowledgeable in this. Right. Because I'm not going to separate you from the next person. Yeah, I agree with 200% Maria. And I will say to that person that's asking, what do I say? Again, look inward. What's the outcome that I want in a perfect scenario? I don't know whose dog is barking. That's how you notice is in the script that people were live here. But I was going to say, you got to ask yourself the hard question or the simple questions. What do I want the outcome of this call to be? Right. Why am I calling this person? Oh, I want them to be my clients. What are some of the things that I think my client would care about? Well, they would care about what are the agencies buying their stuff, you know, or the people there we need to call, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So a lot of the time the questions that we have, we know the answers to already if we take some time to just sit there and just think from a common sense, basic perspective, right? So I would ask myself that question. What is the outcome that I want? What do I want with this call? And then all the other answers will come. Being that we're talking about the phone call, what do they say? The client? Yeah. What was their response after they actually came to the phone and you started talking? Yeah. So I don't remember verbatim, but it was something like, you know, hi, sir, can I speak to XYZ? You know, my name is Miguel. I'm a Marine Corps veteran. I'm the founder of, you know, this consulting company. Do you have a minute or two for me to speak to you about, you know, federal contracts and what's coming down the pipe? I see you guys have some experience already, right? But, you know, I was wondering if you knew about these opportunities coming up. And if not, if you don't have a dedicated resource, I'd like to talk to you about that. And they were like, well, listen, I didn't know about those opportunities. Yeah, we've been doing this for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, the client will do a lot of the talking, right? So I structured the conversation in a way where I can listen and I can hear and I can be attentive to the client and then be responsive from that point. And another good point that you said was that you brought opportunities off the forecast list. You didn't just go on Beta SAM and pull up something that everyone has knowledge of. So that alone shows that you are bringing a lot more value than the next person that's going to call them because anyone could pull up anything from Beta SAM. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I think that it's important for people to understand that in this business, you need to be reactive, right? But you also need to be proactive. You need to be both, right? And pulling things from the forecast list gives you a great opportunity to be proactive because you're getting ahead of the opportunity. You can prepare logistically, right? Your client can tell you if we have the resources and the people are we going to need to hire, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We win something like this. Who's the incumbent, right? Can we capture some of their staff, right? Maybe it was an 8-8 contract and the incumbent is now losing that. Can we call them and say, hey, we're 8-8, right? And we have a relationship here, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that gives you an opportunity to be proactive. The stuff that's already on Beta, that's reactive. And that was one of my selling points actually to the client was, hey, if you're just sitting there replying to stuff on Beta.San, I'm not saying you're not going to land one or two, but I don't believe that's the best way to do things. You need to do that. And in addition to that, let's get some opportunities that are coming up, right? And the next two or three or four fiscal quarters and break those down. That's good. And then the next step was that you are now part of them. And I think that's very important people to hear. You're not just Miguel. You are Miguel of X, Y, and C now. And you have to represent yourself as that person. Yeah. Yeah. And that was something that was another selling point in my script further down the line was, hey, this is how I'm going to do it. This is the strategy. Yes, I may consult it to you and your company, but when we go talk to these agencies, they don't know about that agreement. I'm going to operate as an extension of your sales force, right? So I'm talking to them about you, not my personal company, right? So that was important to them. And then, you know, I also reassured them that I'm going to protect their anonymity and there was going to be no instance where I divulged that I'm some external. And that's important because then that shows that you have this vested interest in them, that you have this in a way a loyalty to them and that you are with them. So you're going into it these meetings with them in mind, not yourself. Yep, exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. So was this opportunity that you found part of your forecast list or did you find it while doing a little bit more research and a little bit more talking? No. So this was an opportunity that was market research for an agency on Beta SAM, right? And the client had already responded like two weeks before I became the person that was leading their capture and business development efforts. And I said, okay, well, what have you done since then? Has anyone called to check on this thing? Has anyone, you know, so I did. Simple follow-up. Right, simple follow-up. And for anybody listening out there, this is the way that this is a strategy that I like to follow because you need to understand if you're going to make a bid, no bid decision. I like to have three pillars of communication within an agency and that's the small business liaison, someone on the acquisition side, whether that's the contracting officer, the branch chief, whatever, and the end users, right? People that are actually going to be the recipients of the product or the service. I try to have one point of contact in all three of those. And for me, I was like, okay, I'm going to start picking up the phone and trying to see if after this market research process, we can set up a capabilities briefing and I can get the client to explain how they would do this via phone. I did that. I now have a great rapport with the small business person there, the acquisition people there, and we've talked to the end users a handful of time. So that contract is in the process of the final stages of being awarded. The funding signature just got signed last week. So, and we had another conversation with them on Friday. So it's just like you said, it's just simple conversations and following up because if they would have left it alone, they probably would have never heard about it or even heard back or anything. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, you also got to know when to bring in the heavy hitters or the people that have the knowledge based on the technical side. And I know that when I'm talking to a small business person, they might not, they're not going to want to get into a deep talk about IT. So that's something I can handle, right? When I'm talking to a contracting officer, they're also not going to want to get into a deep talk about IT or construction or whatever it is you're trying to. All they need to see is on paper that you're able to meet the requirements. They check off the little box. Okay. Exactly. They care about the high level stuff. So I knew that. I understood that and you know, I use that. And it's very important that you had that team of people that you were not alone with representing this client. Like you had the technical person. You had the person that did this. You have the person that helps you with proposal because a proposal, you can't write it yourself. Like we said, we don't have the technical ability to understand most of it, but you knew you how to structure it. And you knew that they had a team and place that's able to support you in this. Right. Well, that's 100% correct. And I think a lot of us think that we have to have it all figured out. We have to do it all ourselves. And it's like that is a complete lie. Right. Be honest with the client. Be upfront. Let them know. Hey, because that's one of the things I told the guy because he asked if you write proposals. I said, no, sir, I do not. We're working on that. But I don't. It's not my cup of tea. Now it's out there. Now it's on the table. Right. So yeah, be honest, understand where your strengths are and where your strengths aren't the great thing that I love about the federal space is that, you know, you can literally assemble, you know, a team right for a contract. Right. It's almost like the transformers to build a larger robot. So I love that. I love that because it encourages teaming. Right. Whether it's a JV CTA, whatever the case might be, and I love that about the federal space. Awesome. So you made the follow a phone call. Everything's falling into place. You're getting your team together. And when do you hear back from them? So the conversation went on for almost a year of just talking to the client. That's another thing you have to understand the arena that you're playing in, you know, with the governing space, it's not like short and sweet. It's not from one day to another. So you can't get discouraged. You can't think that because you're not hearing back, something isn't happening and conversations aren't being had. And I think that's the great thing about having those three pillars of communication is you can check in with your guy on the small business side or your contracting officer and try to get color and intel from everyone to see and then put it together, put the pieces together. So yeah, it's, it's, it was a long conversation, but you know, we were optimistic. And I think there's going to be some, some good signs along the way that, you know, you're heading in the right direction. We had two meetings with the people that need the service. So it's like, that's a good sign. That's a good thing. Right? Yeah. So you were awarded the contract at the end. Correct? Yes. Yes. How much? It's 800 grand. So it's not a little bit micro purchase. It's not a simple acquisition. It is a nice looking contract. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's an IT is considered a small contract. It's not huge, but you also got to understand. I think you and Eric say this thought of time, the client is going to give you a shot. They're going to give you a chance and there's going to be more down the pipeline. Just make sure you take that opportunity and you do the very best that you can every single day a week. Because you have to prove to them that you are capable of carrying out this contract. If you're capable of carrying out this small contract in the IT level, that means they could trust you with a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. 100%. What was your reaction when you got the news? I remember my reaction and I love asking people because that first win, you're like, Yeah, listen, I'm, I'm a God for your man. So I just started praying. Thank you God. Like Hallelujah. Hallelujah. That's awesome. That's, that was, that was my reaction. I was a snake of God because, you know, it does take a long time, you know, that sales cycle for this, this space in this arena is very long. Awesome. And did you do what was your client's reaction when you finally brought it to them? Oh, it was, it was, it was a great reaction. In fact, he was like, Hey, you know, we just heard back. This is great. I love the way you work because it wasn't like, you know, I was this guy's fine and he never heard from me every single day. We talked, we, you know, exchange conversation. We talked about strategy, you know, and I was invested. I was in it, right? So it was just great. It was great. It was, it was a great reaction. I am now a full-time employee of that organization and I want to continue to help them win and also gain knowledge in the area of technical expertise. Right? Like I'm, I know a lot more about it now, but there's still a lot more to learn, but you know, I'm not as clueless as I was when I first started and you have to take everything that you're going to gain from every relationship you build from your client. You're gaining that it knowledge you're gaining that how to put it together, how to put a contract and like you said, take pieces from everything that just because they're a big company doesn't mean they're going to know everything. They're going to be missing pieces. So you have to find the right people to connect all those together. Now you have a relationship after a year. I hope you have a relationship with a small business specialist like you said with the contracting people. You have relationships established with all these people and also I think the fact that it took so long. The good thing about it is that they see that you're going to wait it out. You're going to help them through every situation through the first meeting. Okay. What do they ask for? Okay. This is our next steps. It's not like a month went by. Oh, this is not working and then you move on. Right. Right. Exactly. I agree a hundred percent with everything that you're saying. It's a this government contracting stuff at the federal level is not for the week. Right. It's not for the fickle. Right. I think that's a better word. I'm not going to say week. I will say fickle. You know, stay 10 toes down, stay focused, stay in the fight. Do not retreat and every so often if you're not seeing progress in the direction that you want to see it sit down and look inward and bring it down to your level again. Don't don't complicate things as your role as the business development capture management person after you won the contract. What did you what was your responsibilities after that? Does it stop and you just go on to the next opportunity? Do you what did you do after that? Well, you always have to be looking for more opportunities. Right. I've built something called a pipeline right of opportunities and we visit those opportunities every on a weekly basis and we discuss strategy around those opportunities on some of them we're talking to the incumbent trying to work with them. Right. So always, always, always got to keep the pipeline clogged. As I say, so yeah, always looking for more opportunities and there are others. We've had some more successes elsewhere that haven't been awarded yet. But again, those signs that it's going in the right direction are there, right? Yeah, because these contracts are not like what the one the other smaller ones that it's just like here you go. They're quick. They're easy that you're in and out like the ones that you're looking into are actual big opportunities. If they're not that quick and easy and they're a little bit difficult, that means it's going to create more fruit for your labor. It's going to give you more than just a quick paycheck. Right. And I would say that the government is risk averse. We all know this. So if you do a good job, they're not going to hand that over to someone else that has not been proven. Right. So yeah, just just focus on doing a good job when you get the opportunity. But yeah, I would say to answer your question. Yes. Always looking at more opportunities. Who decided to go full time? Whose idea was it? After you got this first contract, then you had a different perspective of them and they had a different perspective of you. Where did this idea come from? I think it was both. I think it was both. It's you know, it's a little bit of give and a little bit of get right. So I think it was both of our ideas. You know, I am now in a position where I'm continuing to find opportunities for this client and they're in a position where they know that every single day they have to worry less and less and less about this and only get involved at a high level when these things are coming to fruition. So or they're more real. Right. So it worked out for the both of us. It's a phenomenal opportunity. And I think for me, I'm just going to continue to learn on the technical side. And I tell, you know, my client all the time, my goal is for you to not have to worry about this at all. Kick your feet up and for me to run these meetings all the way through. Yeah, because the more you learn that means you're more you're able to talk more when you come to this capability briefings, when it comes to these other conversations with the different people that are in the conversations to come because it's not like you're just giving handing them an opportunity. They have to take it from there. Now they can rely on you to finish these conversations instead of just handing them off. Right. So what's next? Just continuing to learn, continuing to learn, continuing to improve continuing to build relationships. I continue to be a part of the GovCon community, you know, as much as possible because you know, Maria these days, I'm busy, which is a good thing. So hey, you busy. That means you're doing something good. Right. Right. It's a problem. It's when people go, I unheard from them. I don't hear from them and then they come back and I'm like, what have you done? They're like, oh, it was too hard or or if they come back and they're like, okay, I'm ready now. What did you do for the last few months then? Yeah, no, no. So yeah, it's all good things. All good things. Right. Right. Yeah. And the good thing about the communities, it keeps you accountable. You want to come back to this the next meeting with good news and you might miss one or two, but you want to come back to the next one with better news because stories like mine, mine were smaller stories like you stories like everybody else's in our community. It just motivates people. Right. And I think this is where we got this Eric got this idea from. It's like, we need to motivate each other because we all started somewhere similar different circumstances, but some somewhere similar that we wanted to, we understood there was more. We understood that it's possible, but we just needed a little bit more direction and a little bit more motivation for some of us to actually achieve what we feel what our success is. Yep. 100%. I agree with that 100%. You're not in this alone. Dive deep into the resources that are out there at your disposal, whether that's books about government contracting, whether that's this course, you know, the Gulfcon community, whether that's this podcast, just stay in there, you know, surround yourself with these resources and dive in it and continue to self reflect and look and work. Going along with that, what advice do you give someone that's starting out or that feels stuck? Yeah, you know, I think look at what ask yourself, what do I know? Understand the direction that you want to go in from a very basic level, right? Like how many days a week do I want to work? How much do I want to make? Whatever, whatever, whatever. What kind of lifestyle do I want? Do I want kids? Do I want this? Do I want that? And it sounds silly and it sounds unrelated, but I think it's very related. Start with the psychological about yourself. You know, what can I do good? What do I enjoy doing, right? And figure that out first. And I think from there, then you try to see where, you know, you can add value with those very basic things, right? So start there. And we wanted to bring you on because we want to focus on how you took it. And like you said, you asked yourself those questions. You didn't go out and try to figure out somebody else's goals. You didn't figure out what somebody else's success is. You went inward and asked Miguel, what does Miguel want? How much does Miguel want to make? What is his goals? And then he broke out those bigger pictures into smaller, okay, what do I have to do next in order to achieve this much to achieve getting a client? What do I want out of a client? Because you are going to be the one doing the work. You're going to be the one understanding this. And if you don't enjoy it and you don't have a specific goal in mind, then it's just going to fall away. Easy, very easy. Right. And I think what you're saying is extremely important. It sounds silly, what we're saying right now, but it really isn't because it's going to keep you walking a straight line when things get more complicated down the line, right? If you revert back to the questions that you asked yourself before you even started, then you know what directions to go in. You know what decisions are best. Yeah, and ask questions because we know you asked a lot of questions, but you are not afraid to ask those questions because it's rather you ask them and you know the real answer and instead of trying to, okay, I think it says, but you know what? It might be that it's rather you have concrete answers and then you go on to understanding something else. Also, we talked about your ignorance. Your ignorance is a good thing. Exactly. I think I'm not afraid to look stupid. I don't care because I understand that my responsibility as a human being is to make sure that I get, make sure that I understand what I'm doing so I can do the very best for the person to the left and right of me. So I don't understand and I'm sitting there worried about what people think about me when I ask questions or this, this and that. It's never, it's just not good. It's not good because I'm going to fail myself. So Maria, you would be surprised how many times after a certain amount of years, someone tells me, man, you're a smart guy, right? I can tell you that. Right. And at some other point, they probably weren't thinking that I was a smart guy and honestly, you know, whether I'm smarter or not, I don't really care. I don't focus on that. Ask for other people to say and, you know, ask questions like you said, because it's nobody's responsibility to make sure that you get it, but yours. Awesome. Well, thank you very, very much. I hope everyone got their answers. And if you didn't, I know that he's very open to trying to explain this to you because he's, I think you've seen that how it's changed you as a person, how it changed you as opportunities to come, how you allowed your goals to get bigger as you learn more and you do more. So I think you, and you offering people to reach out to you that way. You want that for others and it tells a lot about what kind of human you are. Right. So, and I appreciate that Maria. Yeah, I'm always here to lend an ear. You know, I would say number one, finish the course before you reach out. And if you aren't taking the course at all, utilize the YouTube channel that's out there at your disposal and those resources to get some of the very basic questions answered because people's time is not a game. So that's why you hear less and less from me. Maria asking you silly questions because at a certain point I understood, hey, there's certain things I can figure out on my own and I cannot use a Maria that I have in my disposal for very basic things like this. So I'm here. I can be reached at Miguel at SGCcontracts.com big shout out to, you know, my Gulfcon family and yeah, thank you for the opportunity Maria. No, thank you. It really means a lot to get you here.