 Well, hello everybody and welcome to Brain Club. I don't know everyone, that's pretty cool. I was like, I meet you people at Brain Club. I'm Mel Hauser, I use she day pronouns and I am executive director here at All Brains Balloon. And this is Brain Club. Brain Club is our weekly community educational series where we talk about everyday life stuff that involves our brains. Everything involves our brains. So without further ado, I will share screen which is never queued up to the right place. And that's not even today's date, it's that kind of day. Great, so today we will be re-imagining employment all month this month at Brain Club. We have been talking about all of our, some of our big systems, not all our systems but the systems in our community that like really aren't working for all brains. So we talked about healthcare, we talked about education and now we're gonna be talking about employment. And so just by way of introductions and ground rules all forms of participation here are okay. If you can have your video on or off we do not expect you to look at the camera because we don't want you to do anything you're not comfortable with. And we discourage, we heavily discourage masking and doing things just because we think you're expected to. Cause it's bad for mental health, it turns out. We, you can walk, you can move, you can eat, you can take breaks, everyone's welcome here. And you can communicate however you're most comfortable. You can unmute and shout it out, you type in the chat box, you can, you know use your emoticons, you can mix and match. And safety is really important here. So in addition to affirming all aspects of identity just by way of protecting one another's access needs. If there's anything that's going to be that comes up that might be potentially distressing to other people as definitely happens from time to time. We just ask that you give a trigger warning or a content warning that you're about to talk about something potentially distressing so that we give folks a chance to shut their sound off or leave the room. And then when we're done with the topic I'll type in the chat box that we are done with the topic. And speaking of access needs, if you would like access to closed captioning and it's not popping up automatically you can either click the live transcript CC or the more dot, dot, dot and choose show subtitles. If you would not like the closed captioning and it popped up automatically you can use those same options to turn it off. Can I ask a question? Definitely. So for content warnings should people like be specific or just say something potentially trending? Thank you for asking the question. I love it. So for example, like if I'm gonna say if I'm gonna talk about statistics on suicide which I wasn't planning to do today, but I do often. I would say content warning for suicide and then give like 30 seconds to let people do their thing. Thanks for clarifying. And I'm gonna make sure that next time I'm more specific. So thank you. And I just see in the chat box, oh, fantastic. Thanks, Sierra. Thanks for adding that in text. And if anybody wants to ask a question anonymously or like give a comment anonymously feel free to message me directly on Zoom and I'm happy to do that anonymously. Thank you. Okay, let me get back into share screen mode. All right. So if you've not been to Brain Club by way of introduction, what we talk about here is that we all have different brains. We all have different brains that take in information, process it, learn, think, communicate differently. There's an infinite number of ways in which we do these things. And we all have unique patterns of things that come easily to us and things that are more challenging which is why something called universal design which is offering everything in flexible multiple different ways and giving everyone freedom and choice to pick what works for them is best practice. And short of that, the idea is to not fix or cure or make people's brains work in ways that they don't neatly work but to provide accommodations to allow them to access things that otherwise are not designed for the way their brains do things. When we use the term neurodivergent we are referring to the one in five people who learn, think and or communicate differently than the so-called typical brain even though that's not a thing. I don't think that's a thing. We're really talking about the one in five people who do things in a way that is substantially significantly departs from the brain that most of society is catered toward. And when we think about it, the goal for all of us would be to have a life that works for the way our brain works. And for those one in five people that is really hard to do without intentional design. When we talk about disability, we, the World Health Organization defines disability according to the social model of disability where it's not that there is, though there are impairments and things that are legitimately hard, the issue is not the individual. The amount of disability is relative to how many barriers there are in the world. So if I'm a wheelchair user and I approach a building that has a ramp, I'm going to have less disability than if I approach a building than that does not have a ramp. And when it comes to invisible disabilities, meaning disabilities that you can't tell just by looking, that group has access needs that are infringed upon in everyday life. And we are trying to shine a light on that. And in the context of employment today, we are going to be talking about practical ways to reimagine access, reimagine inclusion. How do we make people with all types of brains feel included like we belong in the workplace? How do we afford people opportunities to meet their access needs? And access needs we define here is anything required to meaningfully and fully participate in one's environment or community. And everyone with all types of brains has access needs. Matthew, go ahead, I see your hand up. Is that a false hand up? Feel free to put it up again if you'd like to. So examples of access needs, this can be really anything, anything that any of us need to meaningfully participate. And we think about how this can all play out at work. I mean, it impacts literally every aspect of employment. And so today, we're gonna talk about how rather than take the square peg and hammer it in to the round hole, we're going to be hearing from employers and others speaking to, how do we not do this? How do we reimagine what's possible? And I think it's gonna be a great conversation. What I'll do is I will introduce our panelists and we'll have plenty of time, plenty of time for interactive conversation. But actually first, what I'm gonna do is I'm just because for those who've not been part of our other brain club conversations about neurodiversity and employment, this is, I think this is like the fourth time we've done this topic in various versions of it. We've heard from neurodivergent employees about what works and what doesn't work. We've tackled like perspective taking between employer and employee, taking different kinds of angles at this. But this is the first time we've had employers or people speaking about the employer vantage point on these conversations. So I think it's gonna be, I think we're gonna learn a lot. And the literature tells us that there are elements that define a neuroinclusive workplace, but here at All Brains belong. We have wanted to look at this through a local Vermont lens. So we have a neuroinclusive employment bright spotting program where it's been open for several months now. And I'm very, very excited to share with you that we have our first round of five employers being recognized tonight as Vermont neuroinclusive employers, two of whom are here today on our panel. And so we're gonna, I'm really excited to be able to learn from how they pull it off. And for one of them, we have some folks who work there. We're gonna talk about what it's like to work there and how that all gets pulled off in practical ways. So without further ado, I am really excited to announce our first five Vermont neuroinclusive employers, Turtle Island Children's Center, Woodbelly Pizza and Catering, Bear Pond Books, Fox Market and Bar, and the Alchemist Brewery. So big congratulations to our neuroinclusive employers, two of whom are here today. And Liv and Donnie from Fox Market, we're not able to join us today because they're working and serving all the people right now. And they fed by child lunch. So I'm extra grateful for them tonight. And this is Claire Benedict from Bear Pond Books, who I'm gonna share some of the points that she told us about, how they do things at Bear Pond. And we are joined today by the crew from Turtle Island. So I get through my slides so you can see everybody's faces and I can spotlight, I'll introduce you to people. And oh my goodness, hold on, hold on. We have a slide thing. Cass, I messed up your logo. What did I do? Oh, how terrible. I'm gonna stop share, stop sharing and fix it. All right, hold on, let me spotlight our panel and then I'll fix my slides. All right, so. Spotlight and spotlight, amazing. Okay, perfect, okay. So maybe what I'll do is I'm gonna introduce everybody and did any last minute requests to the order that I suggested to my email panelists. Is that okay? Okay, okay, great. Oh, except for the Turtle Island crew doesn't know that yet. Sorry, so I'll introduce Molly and then Cass and then Vicky, Katrina, Cecilia and then Connie. Is that order okay with everybody? Okay, amazing. Do you want me to jump in? Oh, there's a comment in the chat first. Congratulations everyone and thank you for making our community safe and inclusive. Oh, amazing. Thank you, Sierra. Okay, now I'm gonna introduce everybody. Okay, so Molly Barfest from Vermont Businesses for Social Responsibility as Education and Events Manager who helps with the Justice, Equity, Diversity and Positivity Committee and makes every effort to plan VBSR events for the next few months. In the past, Molly has served with AmeriCorps, National Civilian and Community Corps where she served local communities through environmental stewardship, disaster release and relief and volunteer coordination. Connie Beale is United Ways Working Bridges Director who is returning to Brain Club today. Love you so much. And who supports a team of workplace-based resource coordinators who support employee stability, retention and advancement by connecting employees with resources in housing, transportation and healthcare and all other kinds of community resources. It's gonna be sharing practical ways that employers can reimagine systems of employment. Kessmer Sal and the owners of Woodbelly Pizza and Catering which is a farm-to-table catering company specializing in Artisan Pizza here in Montpelier with a commitment to local food systems and one of our neuro-inclusive employers. Also thrilled to welcome back to Brain Club, the crew from Turtle Island Children's Center. Our early childhood educators, including director Vicky Sene, special educator Cecilia. Terrible. And sorry, sorry, sorry, early childhood center, early childhood educator Cecilia and Katrina's the special educator, correct? I missed that up and I'm so sorry about that. Okay, Molly, take it away. Hello, everyone. Well, I'm really happy to be here. Dr. Hauser was on, or came to VBSR for a neuro-inclusive employment workshop and in our conversations, I just learned so much from her in that workshop and just in the planning of it alone. And we talked a lot about just having that equity lens and how much I mentioned, how much that's changed really everything for me in how I plan events, how I show up in my personal life. And once that switch kind of flipped, it just doesn't turn off and it's 24 seven. So yeah, I'm really showing up as a community member. I also work at Vermont businesses for social responsibility and just wanna acknowledge how big of an influence that work culture has had on me and that equity lens because I've worked at other places where it is spoken of as a priority, but this is the first place I've worked where it is truly talked about in every meeting, carried through and implemented and it has made a huge difference for me. So I'm excited to be here and learn from everyone else as well. Thanks for inviting me. Thanks Molly and I'm gonna, I have so many questions for you, but I'm gonna say that I'm gonna let everybody do their thing and then we'll dig in. Yes, wanna go next? Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Tess, I am a they them human. I am a person with ADHD and I like to think of it as like a superpower, but sometimes it doesn't feel like that. So I've been working with Woodbelly since 2018 and I became a worker owner in March. So I still work for Woodbelly, but I've been in a managerial role for the last couple of years and I became an owner recently. And I think that one of the ways that I feel proud of my company is like we're a whole person centered business. So we try to like take into account the whole person and what they're experiencing. I remember early on when I first started working at Woodbelly in 2018, I went to a gig when I was having like a really bad mental health day and I struggled with my mental health and I disclosed that I was like not doing well to my coworkers and I was scheduled to be on front of house, but it didn't feel like possible for me. And so the event lead was like very understanding and willing to let me work in the back of the house, which was really helpful, even though I didn't really know how to make pizza yet and I felt really supported by that. And so I just, I think that I have a lot to learn as a manager and a boss and I am really grateful to be here and to share some of the things that seem like they're working and also to just be honest and vulnerable and share about ways that I think myself and my other coworkers can do better. So thanks for having me. Nice to see all spaces. Thank you so much. And we're all learning. Like I am newly in a supervisor role myself and it is like a constant journey of like navigating conflicting access needs and like trying to do all the things for all the people and every day is a work in progress for sure. So thanks for being here. Hi, Turtle Island team. Hi, everybody. Hi, everybody. Like Mel said before, I'm Cecilia. This is Vicki and Katrina and we work here in Montpelier Turtle Island Children's Center. And just the other day I was talking to a four-year-old or heard through the grapevine, a quote from a four-year-old that said, I love Turtle Island. Turtle Island is alive. And upon further prompting, the child said Turtle Island is alive because it has so many friends. And I think for me that was really poignant because we are, it just reminds me of the interconnectedness of all of us as humans. And I think at Turtle Island, we try to think about that a lot, whether you're four years old or 40 years old and just being here with you all is a nice reminder how that connection extends even further into our community. So thanks so much for having us. Should we say more? Is that a good sound bite? Yeah, that's a good sound bite. If you want to say more. You wanna say something, Marina? Okay. Okay, cool. Oh, I am so, my heart is so warm after hearing what four-year-old has to say about our collective existence. That was just, gosh, children can be so profound. I love that. And I guess what you said about like the whole person showing up in work and what that means for workplaces these days feels really important for us to be talking about. So I'm so happy to join all of you. I'm Connie Beal, the Working Bridges Director with United Way of Northwest Vermont. And Molly, it's great to see you. So I see some familiar faces that are in this work in lots of different ways. And for those of you that haven't heard about United Way's Working Bridges initiative, we are a partnership with employers. So we work with employers to look at innovative solutions to retention. And one of those key ways we've been able to help employers and employees with keeping good jobs is having resource coordinators in workplaces to help employees who are facing different things in their life. They bring their whole selves to work and they might need support with housing or transportation or childcare or money worries or other strains in their life. And so my work actually kind of weaved its way to Dr. Hauser's work with Mel's work. And there's a lot of really interesting intersection with thinking about the needs that come up for our team of resource coordinators and workplaces. And one of the things we've discovered that often employees will come and talk to us about something that's happening in their lives. And as we get to know that person and build some relationship with that employee and we peel back that onion and they feel trust in sharing what's going on, we learn a lot about what they need in work to really be their best self. And sometimes they get that and sometimes they don't. And so I'm excited to be part of the conversation to share what I've absorbed in different workplace cultures and things that I've seen work and things that I've seen that don't always support that individual approach to what each person, which each employee needs. I actually just came off of a manufacturer site to jump on this call. And I really, it's one of those cultures of like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You're in it on your own and sort of you have to kind of prove yourself there. And so there's a lot of work for us to do in that culture, right? So we could talk about just like the culture, we could talk about practical strategies that can support employees. We can go in a lot of directions, but I'm really excited to hear where we go and I'll share where I can, but thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. You know, one thing you just said, Connie, that I think would be an interesting direction to kick off in for everybody might be, you know, when you think about how every employee has individual needs, I almost wonder like what this has in common with the education discussion last week, like basic needs, basic needs for just like being a person in the world, like basic needs of like to feel safe. I'm wondering if anyone can speak to that, how, what are some ways that that's played out in your lives and I'll just leave it there. You can take that in any direction you'd want to. I think you look like you look like ready to get ready. Trying to wait a little in case because some things I just, you know, jump in really. Right away, I can't wait. Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of Connie, what you were just saying, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We talk about that and even that particular phrase a lot that that idea in our heads that we've been taught is just so wrong. So many people don't have whatever bootstraps people are talking about. And as you were talking, you know, about sort of building relationships with those people. First of all, I love the idea of resource coordinator. I think that's something we really want to look into here. You know, Katrina mentioned that's what we do with children. We have to build a trusting relationship with them first before they, you know, feel safe and can confide in us and trust in us. And it's the same with all humans of all ages. And as far as basic needs, I mean, we all, you know, the three of us and Cecilia and I as administrators have for the last three years in particular, just discovered that, you know, some people are coming late because for so many basic needs reasons, you know, they're struggling, they didn't sleep, they didn't have food, they need housing. There's so much stress in people's lives just to meet basic needs, food, housing, shelter, transportation in particular. And so we have had to be resource coordinators ourselves in a way, you know, we've kind of just had to piece it together. But, you know, we, yeah, I don't know what else I was going to say there, I'm going to keep going. Well, I was just going to add, I think what we see in kids, like Vicki said, is humans. And without that relationship piece, nothing else really, and having those basic needs met, nothing else really can get done. So having the performance review conversation is not going to make sense if that person, you know, is food insecure or doesn't have access to support for their mental health. And so then everyone's just wasting a bunch of time and energy focusing on that when really, if we get that foundation and those basic needs met, there's so much more opportunities, so many more places that can be gone. But what I have noticed, especially in our culture and the system, the structures that have been set up, is that we don't pay attention to that. We skip to the next part, and then everyone's fallen apart and we don't know why. And when I first started, I remember some teachers saying, you know, you got to leave your stuff at the door when you come in. And I understand that, you know, as humans and having emotions and having experiences that, you know, if we're very stressed out, then the kids are going to sense that. And I understand that. But you can't just leave your life at the door, you're like, somebody was saying maybe Kes, is it earlier? Like your whole person, you can't just like leave yourself at the door and then walk in and everything's okay. Cause we have a lot of people who are struggling and real struggle, material struggle, like physical struggle also. And so how do we expect them to come in and like put a smile on your face and, you know, be immediately ready. And so instead, the hierarchy thing is very uncomfortable for me as a director, you were saying a little bit earlier, Mel. And so how do we see all of us as human, all of us as in this together and support each other? So you just start there instead of being punitive and like punishing people for coming late or punishing people for not leaving their stuff at the door. Instead, we have a conversation, we find out what's going on, we build that trust. Oh, you're late every day because you have to take your little sister to school and it's actually impossible for you to get here at that time. So let's change your schedule, you know, those kinds of things. Anybody? Right. And I think that so often, like there, so sometimes we use the expression like brain rule versus world rule, like the assumptions that get made that like they grow up with, that like internalize from the culture that like a human made them up. They're not like law of physics or something. But the idea that there's like a right way to be professional like a professional leaves their baggage at the door and we like that, such a brain rule that is not helpful for like many, many, many brains. Yeah, the hidden rule. Right, exactly. It's stigmatizing for sure. Yeah. Kes, I'm curious, how does this play out in your line of work? Yeah. I think a thing that I'm thinking about with like support is when I'm interviewing someone, I ask them like, what are their strengths and weaknesses? And then like ask them like, what are ways that I can support you in the things that are more challenging for you? And so like sort of creating an opportunity for people to share if they have like accessibility needs or things that are a struggle for them. And when I like talk to a reference, I'll like ask them, is there like anything that this particular person struggles with and like how do you think they would best receive support? Is like one thing that I'm thinking of like, and then I feel like a thing that I could do better is like just training more, like spending more time with people when I'm training them in. But a thing that I think I've gotten good feedback on before is like when I'm training people to like ask them at the beginning about their learning style and then check in pretty consistently, like how is the training going? How are you feeling? Are there things that could be better for you? And then at the end, check in so that I'm like creating an opportunity for people to share with me and give me feedback because like I'm training them and I don't really believe in like the hierarchy but I do have like slightly more experience than them probably in like Woodbelly. And then like when people start to have issues and need like discipline or whatever, we, I really try to approach them with like curiosity because most of the people who work at Woodbelly are like aligned with our vision for providing delicious healthy food to our community and like the worker-owned cooperative aspect, like people are on board with that. So like people want to succeed. And so when people do make mistakes, we sit them down and check in with them about it and like share what happened from our perspective and then ask them about their perspective and like kind of try to learn if there are like adjustments or things that like we can do to make it better for them. You know what stands out to me about everything that you just said is I think it begins with the lens through which all of you are seeing the world. So like it's almost like the words that you use are gonna flow from that. If you are perching all of these conversations from the perspective of like, you know, I, people wanna do well, people do mean well, people all have needs. I see something and I make the assumption that somebody's needs are not getting met. I'm a, this conversation is all about how I can meet someone's needs. Like energetically that carries with it says David's gotten a check that curiosity is a powerful tool. Absolutely that curiosity and that like that intangible energy of like, I see myself as a member of your village that that partnership, you know, that that theme of partnership really, really comes out and you can't like, you can't fake it. You can't fake your lens. And in fact, Claire from Bear Pond in my conversation with Claire, it was like I didn't even know neuro inclusion was a thing. I just do it. It's just like what I, it's just like we all have different brains that do things differently. Like, I don't know, I just do that. Like, so that, I mean, and that, that's a theme I hear a lot. And so I think I, you, and actually, Molly, I'm gonna ask you because you know, you interface with all so many different employers from different industries and like different places. Like, so you're a person who, you know, sees the world through an equity and inclusion lens and, you know, socially minded businesses that you're interfacing with still even within that self-selected group. Discussions of access are not necessarily, that lens isn't necessarily there. It's not like, because it's, because the brain rule thing, like the brain rule is that there is, you know, this is how the brain works and this is how we are an employee and this is how we do work and stuff. Like, what do you make of that? What do you, what, where do you see that? How do you see that playing out about why this is so new and, and like why it's so hard sometimes to shift those brain rules or those systems or assumptions? Sorry, that was a long-winded question. Oh, yeah, I think, I think part of what makes the change aspect so difficult, or at least, I mean, I see this a lot more for planning events and folks, you know, wanting to build everything out before they hire a neurodiverse individual or, you know, it's almost like setting barriers up for yourself so that you can't get the thing done because you've made it so difficult for yourself and like, oh, it's just too much, I can't get started, but really actually making those shifts and being, you know, making accommodations to meet somebody's needs, it's usually not as big of a lift as people make it out to be. And I think it just comes from this false sense of loss or scarcity to move out of your comfort zone and also, you know, it's almost like when people realize they haven't, or they realize that they've been excluding a group of people or an individual, they feel like they've failed a test that they didn't know they were taking and they get defensive of, well, I didn't know or they're asking too much and it's when you actually step away from the emotional response and just look at the situation, it's like, hey, can we let this person in 15 minutes earlier and just make sure that they get the seat that they want or something like that? And it's usually very doable and it's also the hardest to do for the first time when you're making adjustments and figuring out new logistics, but then it becomes the new normal. So I think, yeah, to sum that up, I think it's, I just have tried to always think in the growth mindset of it's never done and there can always be a new normal so that we don't get stuck in, we already did enough, you know, that's a bad place to be. I'm just gonna throw this out to all of you. So, you know, I'll just comment in the chat, love that idea that there can always be a new normal and Sierra shares, most research I've done on neuro-inclusive employment focuses on specific internal programs on how to hire and retain neurodivergent employees instead of universal design, how to change general organization practices, right? Sierra, I think that's a really good point because, you know, on one pathway is the neurodivergent employee who knows that they think learner communicate differently and request accommodations and like, I wanna talk about that, but really the idea that many such people don't know, they don't know many people with invisible disabilities don't know they have invisible disabilities and it's stuff's really hard and something's not working and if culture is stigmatizing and othering that person, you feel broken and defective and deficient, a lot of the time. And so as to Sierra's point about like, offering flexibility, offering different ways of doing the thing for all people even if they don't disclose a disability, I'm wondering how that plays out in any of your lives. Mel? Yeah, hi, Matt. Hi, sorry, I don't have any- I know your voice, I don't even see you because I mean- Yeah, I recognize your voice already, it's good. Yeah, haha. I don't have my camera on because I feel like I'm on all day and this is just nicer. I know, I agree. I just meant that I'm in this Zoom screen where I can only see the four panelists but I hear this voice from the ether and it's you and I know you're you. Yes, so I, the idea of not knowing you have a disability, I should introduce myself, my name is Matt Mulligan. I'm an adult access clinician at Washington County Mental Health which means I work in emergency services, community-based, delivering community-based mental health services and I'm a member of the board at All Brains Belong and I am neurodivergent and I was not diagnosed with my learning disability until I was 40 years old when I'd started graduate school and was struggling and so I lived an entire life or a big portion of an entire life having people ask questions like why can't you do this and why aren't you learning this and you need to work harder or oh, you're lazy or oh, you've had all those brain surgeries so maybe you're just not that smart and being a therapist now, I understand that the default whatever the default is, whatever we're used to is one of the most powerful forces in our lives because whatever we're used to our brain perceives as providing comfort and to violate what we're used to means violating comfort which means violating safety so at the root of everything and even in organizations a person with diverse needs represents change which represents a threat to what is so that's why the individual is always the easiest target and I've been in that place many different times in my life and that's why the work here at All Brains Belong I don't have to say how valuable it is to be part of spreading this message. No, they're not doing it wrong they need to be able to do it differently. Amen to that. I think with me it's funny that graphic you showed with the square thing that you're hammering into the hole there. I think what I didn't realize throughout most of my life was that I was actually hammering myself into the rolls you know and that was really tough you know I thought like why can't I do this job? You know work the night shift, doing computer operations and it was like such a boring job and I'd always fall asleep. It was really crazy. And finally I found a job that matched my style and I was able to do it for like 14 years because they were very flexible so you can be hard on yourself too and not even realize it. Oh for sure and that is so common. If you think that there is one right way to do the thing because that's what you've been told and you're not doing it. Yeah that internalized ableism that comes from that. I think I just wanna jump in too is like the employers that we work with I mean we're working primarily with manufacturers and healthcare industry. I think that there's still a big gap in understanding and education and what it means and what it takes and a bit of a, I think some work we can do around helping employers recognize the what's in it for them right? This idea of like let's get you to understand what the benefit here is if we can help with these changes and that universal design that idea of like let's, we don't have to do things the same way because we've always done them that way right? We talk about hidden rules in my work all the time with working bridges and hidden rules of the workplace. And I like our team actually was like, well who wrote the hidden rules? Like why are we, what are these brain rules that Mel will talk about right? These rules, who wrote the rules? We wanna revamp the rules and like look at a different way of imagining a workplace or imagining those benefits that can be that actually really meet the individual's needs at a time in their life or with their specific situation. I was talking with Mel about this one workplace where they offer all employees a 401k right? And this is like, it's just interesting right? This benefit that really requires one to be in a place of significant stability to look outward right? To be able to look that far down the path means you've got your childcare set up, you got your food, you have a place to live, you gotta have all that sorted out. And like we all know these days that's really hard to do. So who's getting up out of the weeds to look at the 401k that may never even be something that feels achievable? You're not gonna put money in that. So when you're in scarcity of need, that scarcity of essential resources, how are we looking at employment and workplaces as a community that can meet each individual's needs? And that might mean looking at resources and benefits in different ways. But supporting employers to do that, right? Cause with the partners we work with, their job is to make something, right? Or to produce food or to provide caregiver support or to be a doctor or to be, so you think of the employers we're working with who are at capacity and over needing more employees for the jobs, how are we creating systems or community partnership or community responses to that need? And that's that gap of like, how do you get to support that system and help employers participate in that where maybe they're not part of those conversations yet? Cause education, I see that as a big, big hole right now where I'm like, Mel, there's this gap and we wanna help employers see that because I believe they want that. It's just how do you help them get there, right? Get their technical assistance, yeah. Right, right. So, cause I think that just as so many employees, so many humans are in a state of scarcity, employers, I think that like scarcity of bandwidth is really across the board. And so here I hear the team from Turtle Island saying that they're like doing their own resource coordination for staff while they're like trying to take care of sweet little loves. Like while everyone's got COVID and like everyone's like in harm's way all day. Like, I mean, just that's unbelievable. I can even say, you know, as someone who like knows how to be a doctor, but like definitely does not know how to like run a business, start a business, like all these things. Like there is not like a guide that tells you how to do the things as an employer. And so like you can't like, there's not like a website that tells you all the different like world rules or societal brain rules that like have laws behind them. Like they're not all home and place. You don't even know like how many different websites you got to go in like, so I'm making my own checklist for like how to do all the things. Like if there were a resource, I feel like we should create this, right? Of how to make it easy to meet your employees access needs. Like because right now, like I just throw this out to anyone on the panel. You know, yes, universal design is best practice. Universal design benefits everyone. Do, do, do. Everybody wants autonomy and flexibility, but when you've got someone who is disclosing a disability, which is hard to do and not always safe to do, depending on the culture of employment, someone's disclosing a disability. One, do they even know what accommodations would be helpful? Most of the time they don't. So there's that. So they don't know what to ask for. They just say they're struggling. And then the employer who's in the, you know, the low bandwidth state is like, you know, there's that. And then there's the piece of, well, this is the thing that I'm going to ask for. And because of what Molly brought up, which is, you know, you didn't say it this way, but how I'm spinning it is that like, depending on the nature of the conversation, and when people are dysregulated, those conversations, they don't go well a lot of the time. So you have the person who feels other than unsafe, who's asking for their access needs to be met. And then the defensiveness, it's like a completely prittest of the part you said, like the defensiveness of like, oh no, I'm not doing nothing. And so like, that's a lot of people's experience. This is like conversations I have all day long with, you know, with my patients. So I wonder, just throw this out to the panel or anybody in the audience, like how can that go better? Um, I think that a spirit of humility is really important. And like, I think being, I think creating a culture where you are listening to your employees and like actively asking for their feedback is pretty important so that you're like approachable because mental health struggles are like a part of everyday life. And they're only going to increase as like, our lives on this planet become more precarious, unfortunately. And so like, we need to really open our hearts to like vulnerability and radical honesty as like strengths so that we can build resilience together. I think that a thing that when I'm working a catering gig, I like have my crew circle up so that we can introduce ourselves if we don't know each other and like we say our names, our pronouns and I created like a questionnaire after we were nominated for this like sprain spotting thing asking the workers like how we could be more inclusive to people who are neurodivergent. And one of the suggestions that someone gave me that I'm gonna try out is like during that circle up ask people if they're like how they're feeling and if there is specific support that might be helpful for them. So if they, somebody is like knows that they struggle with like timelines and like being on tasks during the catering gig they can like find a buddy to like help them or something like that. Which like, I don't want the answer to be on the person who's already struggling. And like, I think having a spirit of collective like trusting the collective intelligence is helpful. So that's something that I'm gonna try out. I'll let you know how it goes. I love your brain, that's amazing. What you could potentially do is you take the collective feedback and you make a menu out of it so that you're not putting the onus on the person in an open-ended way to come up with their own accommodation. It's kind of like, I mean, I don't know I don't know if like this worked but like, you know, as panelists it's like, here's some things that other panelists have found helpful. Let me know if you want any of these plus anything else that you want. Like maybe you could turn your survey into that. Yeah, totally. Thank you. Another thing, Kessa, so I think listening creating a help supporting a culture in the workplace of listening and an individual really focusing on individual needs and strengths and team dynamics. And in our work, I've noticed there's like giving staff employees support to do that. So what you're doing, Cass, right? Knowing that like, I think of a manufacturer that has three shifts and they have team leads on a line. Those team leads don't always get the support they need to manage such a diverse team, right? I've seen that happen where communication breaks down so fast, things are taking the wrong way people are reacting, people are triggered, people, I mean, it can get messy fast. And so how does that team member get the support they need to kind of, you know react and respond and approach those situations with tools and like the tools you were talking about, Cass, like how do you help your teams practice listening, deep listening? How do you help your team support or provide support when something goes wrong? You know, when a product doesn't come out as planned and there's a big loss to the company, like how are your teams, you know how are we supporting those leads? I also, it kind of comes back to some of the work I've seen light bulbs go off with some teams that I've worked with around concepts from scarcity and helping people to understand what happens to our brains when we have too little of what we need, you know we don't have enough of what we need to really be showing up fully. And in those conversations, we'll talk a lot about suspending our initial reaction like suspend our judgment, suspend our own mental model like whatever my lens is, isn't your lens, isn't your lens, isn't your lens. And the minute I feel like people will get that and that's where listening happens, right? That's when you can actually have like that real dialogue if you suspend your own reaction of, oh, well they must be lazy, oh, they must be this, oh, they must be that, well, stop, full stop, like let's have a minute, take a breath and try to understand it from a different perspective and build some empathy around everybody's share, you know, the experience that another person could have because the essential resources I have access to are not the essential resources that my coworker has. And so we're having conversations like that with our employers and with the employers we work with. I mean, we need more of it, like we need more tools around that. And I would love to see that happen more often and on sort of this more, you know, based on teams too. And those who are not yet supervisors but those who are taking lead roles, like that's where I feel like more support's needed where you need that, I think that opportunity for teams to talk about these things. One of the things we've been thinking a lot about at Turtle Island within that basic needs is voice and how having a voice, whether it's, however you choose to present that is shared and celebrated and we recently created what we call the change team. And a group of teachers have come together and it literally is what it sounds like. Any sort of change that is bubbling up that needs to happen, we're working on as a team. One of the things that we're doing right now is rewriting our handbook for families and we're doing that as a collective group of about 15 of us and with different input and in out and just making those options available for folks to really speak up and use their voice to say, this thing isn't working and rather than just hearing that, we're like, okay, it's not working, it's not working, really trying to take that and use that growth mindset and how things can change and move forward. I wanted to share that that's been working really well at our space. So you're really affirming autonomy, you're giving people that sense of agency that they can be part of making their system better. Like that's amazing. And I think the other piece that's really important is also that no one is coming to the table saying we know what we're doing. We're all coming saying we want to be better at this and I just remember that thing, no, that phrase, no one is good at everything but everyone is good at something and it reminds me a lot of this group in terms of just highlighting what people are really good at and not saying, if you're not good at one thing you need to be better at all of the things but really capitalizing on what people know and can do and enjoy doing. And I think that comes out a lot through this one of these groups we have at Turtle. I just really quickly, they remind me when we hire new people, it's kind of interesting because we always ask them, like, what are your preferred hours? What age group do you like working with? What do you like? We just ask them what job they want to have. And some people don't know how to answer because they're not asked those questions or they just are kind of taken aback in a way. Like, oh, I mean, aren't you supposed to tell me what I'm supposed to do? And so it's just really interesting to see that. That's so interesting, Katrina. And it's like a flip in a way, right? And so employees will inevitably be like, wait, what's going on? This isn't the, you know, I mean, it's kind of a, well, reimagining both for the employer and the job seekers, the employees, right? Like work, like you could actually, I see that sometimes with inclusive hiring, we talk a lot about recovery safe or recovery friendly workplaces. And so there's a lot of conversation about at what point do you disclose to an employer that you're a person in recovery? Like how do you talk about that in a workplace? And I've seen some shift in that. Like I've seen more employees really be able to say, yeah, I'm in recovery and I'm good with it. And these are the things I need to do well in my job. And a lot of the employers who are more familiar with that, they've gained some strength in that. They've had practice in it. They have better understanding. They've learned, right? And so now I can see a shift happening. It's kind of that same thing, I think, where more education, more opportunity to hear this work and understand how this work is good for everyone, then good for business, good for the employee, the employer, for community, it will see a shift. And maybe it won't be so surprising to be able to disclose right at the get-go and to be asked these questions of an employer that's saying, well, okay, tell me more about how you work well. What are your, what makes you be your best self? Chocolate. That's all I have to say. Tony, what you said was it my exact experience getting onboarded to DBSR when they said, when, what hours are you gonna work? And I was totally thrown for a loop of confusion. But I think back to what Kes said of radical authenticity and honesty and then also giving people options, I think also brings out those invisible, you know, disabilities or barriers that people have that they don't even realize of like, oh, I didn't realize I was spending 50% of my energy trying to get to work at 8 a.m. And showing up at 9.30, I actually can perform so much better. I didn't realize I had the option. I didn't realize I was spending that energy or in another role, I had a meeting was going on and someone said, sorry, I can't make it next week because I have a therapy appointment. And we were going to reschedule and someone said, oh, actually that day doesn't work for me because I have therapy or this time doesn't work for me either because I have therapy. And then we all stopped putting on our calendar, a mysterious do not schedule and just said, I have therapy. And it was just so like such a huge release of not even realizing the energy and tension we were all holding of having this secret and instead just having the opportunity to feel safe opening up about that and just bringing your authentic self and your authentic life to work, just it's energizing instead of draining. Oh, Molly, isn't it fabulous? I'm sorry, I have to like emote. I'm like, yes, it's a fabulous thing to actually embrace who people are, like what are the things you all, we all need in our lives to show up. You know, the one place where I kind of, this is where I struggle sometimes is I recognize when you think about job functions, right? Who's got what kind of job right now? And I do see like equity issues that present themselves when I'm working with frontline manufacturers that are, you know, a lot are new Americans in our Northwest region and folks, people of color makes me think, okay, their job function doesn't allow for as much flexibility, right? We think of these kinds of jobs where product is about timing and about getting things out the door. So it will be different for different industries and different job functions to think about this neuro-inclusive employment, inclusive employment might not look the same at the hospital as it does at a manufacturer. And so like we think about where people are working and the requirements of these jobs. I guess that's the biggest task for employers is to really look at the kind of jobs that you have. And are we, like what are ways that you can approach that kind of job with the lens of, okay, this, how can I make this work for everyone's brains, right? And just my look at it. Wouldn't it be nice if we had, if the idea of employment was centered around the employee rather than the role that they play? Because if people get what they need, they do, you know, they will do what they need to do. But so often I think, you know, the structure of the idea of employment and maybe it's our culture or maybe it's everywhere. You know, okay, you've got a job, this is what you do. And I think it's an old idea. And I think if you pay attention to the people, the work gets done and probably even more work gets done rather than the other way around. Yeah, that's your idea. I really love that idea. Yeah, I think, I mean, when you think of like reimagining good jobs, good jobs, really it's like, how are jobs working for people versus like working for the job, right? But I mean, there are probably, I don't know, I think about that with, especially during COVID when I saw, you know, many employees of privilege be able to pivot to remote. And yet many employees who, you know, we're earning the least amount of income having to go in and risk their health and pay for childcare and transportation and experience that tax on their bandwidth and just increase stress load. So I think that is like, that's the area, that's the innovation is how are we really looking at how jobs are working for people these days, right? Like how are those jobs really meeting those basic needs, bringing, you know, making it so that people can show up at work and that they're not, like there was this one situation where an employee was showing up at work and actually it cost her money to go to work because the healthcare benefit that she got from that employer helped offset, like actually helped them have insurance but she wasn't bringing any money home, right? Like it was, that shouldn't be happening, right? What should be happening is we wouldn't want jobs to actually be able to provide. And that's just, some of this is economics. Some of this is benefit cliff challenges. Some of this is, so this isn't, this doesn't rest on just one entity, right? This is, there's a collective response. And I think it takes doing some things a little differently and thank goodness we're in Vermont because I think maybe we could. Yeah, and I think that, and I couldn't let this conversation wrap up tonight without naming this thing. When we're thinking about the one in five people who are neurodivergent, the COVID factor, right? So the neurodivergent community is at increased risk of complications from COVID. And when we think about, yeah, it's a total privilege to be able to, like I live in a bubble, that is a privilege. And I am grateful every minute of every day that I have that privilege. And that's really hard to know that people are needing to choose between health and meaningful participation in employment and some people more than others depending on their industry. Do we know the mechanism for why people like ADHD and other things are at more risk? Is it because it's forcing them into life circumstances where they have to work or is it they're a chemical problem? No, it's autoimmune. It's all the things. It's the multi-organ system, autoimmune constellation that many neurodivergent people experience relating to their connective tissue and neurocardiovascular system that, yeah. Yeah, I'm just glad to see that the medical community actually is recognizing. I saw that on the CDC website. Yeah, so the CDC has it buried that as a high risk factor, but this is not typically talked about even within the healthcare community. So not surprisingly, many neurodivergent people don't even know that we're at increased risk of long COVID and within various industries, particularly as the community conversation includes a lot of mythology and a lot of magical thinking. People are feeling excluded when their access need is to not be in indoor unmasked spaces. Like, so getting back to the very first topic we broached tonight about the basic needs of safety, this is a really, really complicated time. And whenever an organization offers something in a hybrid format, like I try to go out of my way to really validate that or when a restaurant makes it easy to eat outdoors or has takeout options or just flexibility for the general community interfacing, because that's really not widespread and that's really hard because it's conflicting access needs. There are some jobs because of what the job is that by default incurs more interpersonal exposure when the rest of the community is not providing an accommodation and the accommodation doesn't need to be don't do the job but the accommodation might be masks or ventilation or et cetera, et cetera. Exactly, can't offer childcare virtually but at Turtle Island, you are spending as much time outside as you possibly can. So go ahead. I was gonna say equity represents a threat to established systems and equity represents the idea that things need to change and change I think in the human brain triggers fight or flight and then the people who need the equity become the problem. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say that even if we think about childcare as an example there's a group of really hardworking early childhood educators working. We met yesterday as a task force to better understand best practices in independent educational settings and best practices for COVID safety prevention because childcare cannot be provided virtually and there's like a whole lot of things that have been learned about how to make this more equitable and safe. Melissa. Hi. Hey, is it possible to jump in with questions? I missed the first like two minutes and stuff. Go for it. Yeah, I had something that I was sort of curious about like at a lot of like, I don't know how employers are handling this but a lot of higher education institutes and stuffy and like asking for things, this sort of accommodations and that kind of thing and finding there's a very strong attitude towards thinking of accommodations as like a ADA compliance issue or 504, whatever regulations that a place is under and almost basically thinking of anything outside that is impossible to do. We're actually like framing it that way to people asking for them. And I'm thinking about boundaries between legal compliance kind of stuff versus things that an employer can do that might be going above what they have to do and making employers and educators comfortable with doing that. But I just wondered if that's something that's even coming up like, like I know some of you guys are like consulting in the situation and sometimes it seems like what happens is like, I've talked to someone and they're willing to do something and then they talk to a lawyer and suddenly they aren't or you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, and we can, if anyone on the panel has any comments but also anyone in the audience who has comments, you know, I think that you're bringing up, I mean, like you're, to me, you're bringing up several different things, which is like the, like ADA compliance is a bare minimum. That's not actually meeting people's access needs. Like you can be ADA compliant but not actually affording people to meet their access needs, right? And so there's that. And it's, I mean, it's a culture thing. And I think this also gets to Molly's point about like when ADA gets evoked as is entirely, people are entirely entitled to access their legal rights and depending on how those conversations go, that defensiveness makes things, the person doesn't actually get what they're seeking a lot of the time. And it's the intangibles, it's like the culture of safety, the culture of inclusiveness, I think that determines whether or not someone's gonna be able to make it work at their place of employment. And it is, to the extent that this stuff is known ahead of time, all the better. Like I've had conversations with people where they're not sure they want to talk about their access needs during an interview or they're not sure they wanna talk about their access needs like upfront ahead of time because it's not safe. Or it seems like, oh, well, you know, it seems like it's not safe. Like that's a red flag. It's certainly a privilege to be selective about employment. And a lot of times you can judge that culture of safety right away. Does anyone wanna speak to that situations they've seen or heard of or like themes that might be helpful? Can't necessarily speak to the legal aspect, but I can say just a past experience I had of a coworker who had started and was only a weekend and she needed to declare a disability. And she and I had become friends in that first week and she confided in me before going to HR and to our boss and asked for me really just to be an ally to her and help to implement the changes that she needed and just asked for my support really. And she was asking, do you think it would be weird if I say this? And she just needed someone to be on her side. So I provided that support. And just, it's not like I did much of other than just saying, yeah, I'll support you and help make those corrections where they need to happen. And then she moved forward. And I was, you know, just nodding along when she was then ready to tell the team and sometimes just having an ally can make a big difference. So thank you for sharing that. And I think that, you know, co-regulation just the impact of having someone, you know, nervous system to nervous system can contribute very much to safety. And actually with that, as we wrap up today I'll say that our brain club, so every month we have a new theme and within the month we always do something on neurodiversity employment. And it's been requested by multiple people next month to be covering the specifics of having discussions about disclosure and accommodations with employers. So that's gonna be the topic, the employment topic. I don't know which week in September it'll be yet, but the schedule will be going out maybe in a couple of weeks. But next week for brain club, next Tuesday is going to be about unlearning the brain rules of parenting followed by unlearning the brain rules of relationships. So thank you so much to all of our panelists and to all of our audience members. This was an amazing conversation.