 Welcome once again to the Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our final conversation this morning is on the protest at the United Nations General Assembly. It's by the Nigerian Indigenous Nationalities Alliance for Self-Determination. It's a convener, Professor Banji Akintoye, had of course spoken a few weeks ago, declaring that there will be a protest from the 14th to the 24th in New York to share some of the challenges that Nigeria is currently facing. They have spoken about genocides and ethnic cleansing and some of all of that. And they will be taking a protest to the United Nations. It did kick off yesterday. And so we're speaking this morning with the Public Affairs Analyst, Mark Adebayo, who's joining us. Good morning. Thanks for joining us. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Thank you. All right. Mr Adebayo, let's get your thoughts on the idea of protesting at the United Nations General Assembly. How relevant is this for the NENAS group? Yeah, first thing is that it is strategically incumbent. What the action they are taking is strategically incumbent. Nobody's going to shoot at them at the UN assembly. Nobody's going to arrest them. Nobody's going to disturb them. Nobody's going to arouse them. So they are protected by law, both local and international laws to do what they are doing. If they did that in Nigeria, it would have been a different problem. So it is strategically incumbent on them to do that. And of course, what they are asking for, the United States, I mean, the United Nations is best placed to give it reality, to bring it to bear. That is why what they are doing today is strategic. It is relevant. It is important. And I think it will draw the attention of the whole world to the quagmire that we are facing in this country today. So kudos to them. If my shadow are permitted, I will have been there with them now, so they are rising. I want us to look a little closer at the reasons for their protest. Professor Akinto has stated that the people of the South and Middle Belt want to show the world the crimes against humanity and attacks on press freedom, free speech and other criminalities being aided by the current administration here in Nigeria. Are these genuine concerns? Are there really genocides and crimes against humanity being carried out in Nigeria that should give rise for protests like this? Every claim and every allegation on that petition is genuine, it's genuine, it's realistic. Now, each we are having now is some of us who, if you like, call us in Madrid, who are rather advocated for a restructured Nigeria, you understand, we are not going to push aside. Our voices are now being drawn because the government refused to listen to the voice of listening, that restructuring is better than disintegration. They refused to listen. For that reason, the people that believe in the self-determination, which is the fundamental human right of every people in the world, I call it the United Nations Charter, so you cannot believe them. It is for almost 20 years that we have been clamoring for restructuring in this country. I feel very happy to be clamoring for restructuring. Many groups in the south-west and the south-south and the Middle Belt have been clamoring for restructuring that this country should be restructured, that we should go back to what was working for all the countries of that history. Let each zone, let each region, determine its socio-economic and political fate by itself. So, in Nigeria, the restructuring Nigeria, you know, where power is devolved to the zones. But the power has to be, it has to be used to bring back to self-determination agitations and it is a trade that is moving that nobody can stop anymore. So, the issue of social media is no longer becoming popular. Actually, it is the southern part of the country and the Middle Belt. So, people are saying that if we restructure the country, it's not going to work. And then, when they bring in the government as an enabler of this crisis, what the question we should ask ourselves is that, how is it that in the past six months, that it is the issue of that area, the issue of this killer area that dominated our policy. And if there is any issue that the Bwari government is emotional about, that is concerned about, that is prompt about, that acts decisively about, is the issue of the killer areas. Once we begin to complain, the number one spokes organ for Mieti Ala today is the federal government of Nigeria, it's the presidency. So, now, people are complaining that these people are killing people. They are destroying farms. They are destroying towns and cities. They are overrunning places and taking over, over 100 villages and amlets on the plateau have been taken over by these killer others. And they are renaming those villages and amlets. You know, they are renaming them. And these criminals have been made on the scene of crime without a direct intervention by the federal government. Now, you begin to wonder whether it is not legitimate to allege that the government is complicit in the activities of these guys. So, if the government are listening to the call for destruction, I don't think we will be at the state now. You know, if we are listening, and then, of course, the 2014 Confirmed Report, which is recommended in short, short Nigeria, should have been looked into and acted upon. Even if they are going to make some little bit of amendments. But even during the campaign, the president made it very clear that it was not going to touch that report. And that is the result we are seeing now. It does seem that the country, the way things are going, it does seem that Nigeria is also terrible because you can see that even the security agencies are overwearing now, despite their best efforts. Things are getting out of hand. Look at the way they just went to a military camp in San Francisco. Kill 12 security personnel, took away so much arms. So, and that is a problem to us. It's like, you know, most of, you know, before the terrorist leader was killed, she count, he was boasting that, you know, about 50% of the weapons they are using were seized from the Nigeria military. Yes. I want us to, you know, still talk about this issue regarding how Professor Banji Nenas-Chamman has worded their concerns. He's saying, saying that, you know, there's a genocide going on in Nigeria. And the meaning of a genocide, really, is the deliberate killing of another group or another nation to totally wipe them out. But when we look at the integrated situation in Nigeria, yes, we have had incidences of crimes committed by people from Northern Nigeria on those in Southern Nigeria. But it seems that the bulk of that security challenge is within the North, by Northerners on Northerners. That's what it seems to be. So would you say Nenas's right to describe what's happening in Nigeria as a genocide? Well, if you look at what is happening in Southern Carolina for the past six years, what is happening in Southern Carolina is qualified to be called a genocide because of the concentration of attacks and killings and destruction of the indigenous people who are mostly Christians or enemies, you understand? That qualifies for, you know, the argument that most of the crimes and violence are put in the North is neither here nor there. What happens is that, as a matter of fact, I believe some people in the North, San Fara, Boronu, Akan, and Co, to be in the forefront of this struggle. Because, well, yeah, let us consider the fact that most of the violence and killings are pledged, you know, are limited to the North. But it is not an excuse for inaction by the federal government of Nigeria, you know. Whether people are being killed or masked in the North or in the South is neither here nor there. What is happening is that people are being killed. That is not unless, if you don't want to call it genocide, call it pogrom. You can call it pogrom, mass killing of people. And, you know, I'm going to get here. We got here because we have refused to learn from history. We have refused to learn from history, you know. We went to war in this country. It's a bloody civil war that cost over two million lives, almost three million lives. It's equivalent of the number of Jews that were killed during the Second World War. And we went through all that and didn't learn a lesson. We have seen coups and counter-coups in this country because of bad governance, because of injustice. Still, we have refused to learn a lesson. I think we are not saying that all the media have a ruling clique. If you want to paper over, you call them the ruling class. We don't have a ruling class in Nigeria. We have a ruling clique. So they have not learned a single lesson about all the tragedies and problems and troubles that have been following this country. And that is rather unfortunate. It's rather unfortunate. What we have seen is due to the lack of understanding of our history and the lack of understanding of why we have to do things differently. Mr. Ajabayo, the crux of the matter here for Ninas, why they have gathered in New York, where the United Nations General Assembly is holding, is because they say they want self-determination. They want a referendum in Nigeria to be able to vote if they want to be part of Nigeria as a country or to break out to have their own state. I want us to talk about the possibility of this platform, this protest at the UN headquarters, giving them what they want. So what's the intended outcome? Is it that the United Nations will talk about this in one of their sessions and be forced to issue statements asking Nigeria to go ahead and put that referendum clause in the Constitution? What exactly are they aiming for and what might be the outcome of such a protest? The fundamental expectation of the organizers of the protest is for the United Nations to table Nigeria's issue on the table. I'll put it on the table for discussion and, of course, recommend to the Federal Government of Nigeria to organize a referendum, an internationally supervised referendum. That is the ultimate goal, to get the United Nations to intervene by, say, telling Nigeria, look, you need to do a referendum. If people, because it's one of the rights of the people, self-determination is one of the rights of internationally recognized rights of the people, to say that we need to, you have to do a referendum. And if there is enough international pressure on the government, they will have to, that's the tune of the local international communities about organizing a referendum in Nigeria. We have to organize a referendum. One thing I've been advising actually to my Yoruba people and activists and self-determination groups is that, okay, we need to do as much of local, you know, intra-Yoruba advocacy as we are doing internationally so that when we go to the referendum, we go with one voice and we go with one vote and then it will come out the way we want it. I permit you to say that as you have some modicum of faith in the corporate assistance of Nigeria, if it is restructured. I know that in today, the federal government decide to listen to restructuring advocates and put in place the mechanism to restructure the country whereby power is devolved to the zones. That would be, the people are advocating for self-determination. I like it to, they are not going to be as fussy for us as they are now. Mr. Adebayo, Mr. Adebayo, I spoke to Pa Adebayo, the leader of Afeni Ferry, about the same issue regarding restructuring, you know, the agitations of the Yoruba nation and he said that he highly doubts that this restructuring that they want, what happened during the administration of President Muhammad Ubu Harry. Do you share that same belief? General Muhammad Ubu Harry, we not attend to restructuring, we not even listen to restructuring, he is not going to listen to self-determination, he is not going to listen to recall for justice and balance and equity in this country. It is not his nature. It is not his, it just seems that it is not his nature to engage things that are just. So what then is the essence of the protest if you believe that the President would not go ahead and assist to your demands? We have put pressure on government. We have put pressure on government. All over the world, a government that refuses to bend and lead you to the wish of the people, ultimately will break. That's what happens. So we cannot expand the national pressure played already. Now, if what Baba Deba Joe said is not as safe as it is impossible to achieve, what he is saying is that this president will resist it. He has been resisting it. We clamor for balance in government appointment, he refused to listen. We said we don't want open grace, we don't want this animal mass overrunning our schools, our houses, our farms, our towns causing him. He said no, that is going to give them other regard or something. When that one could not walk, he said that you want to look for a moribund dead, he said, you know, that he wants to open up a grassy roots. I mean, everything about him is just to satisfy, you know, the President is helping himself, he's not helping matters, because he keeps doing things that you know, as somebody who is ethno-religiously biased. So we don't do anything to disabuse the minds of people who are letting you accuse him of ethnocentric biases. He's not doing anything to disabuse our minds. So that is the problem we are having. Why is he so fixated on confiscating lands for these others in this age? When governments are saying, come, we'll give you land and you'll catch your cattle. The President is insisting on grassy roots and then that is creating more violence, more bloodshed, more killings, more kidnapping and more insecurity. Why? You begin to wonder. So he's not going to listen, but his hands can be forced by mass protests consistent. The 11 days that I'm going to use at the UN are actually there will be some positive results. Well, a lot of people may, you know, not agree that there will be any actual results. But I want us to talk now about collaboration of NINAS because it seems they are mostly about the Eurobar agitation and the middle belt. Do you think that they should seek some partnership or collaboration or join hands with other self-determination groups including the IPOV and maybe the APIs in the north, you know, who have also had their own protests running for many years. Do you think it's important that NINAS starts to build these collaborations to give themselves more numbers and give themselves a louder voice that might be more effective? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that should be done. As a matter of fact, not just IPOV and other people. Even though that goes down, NUSDA also believes in the restructuring of Nigeria. They are not going to believe that. They are not going to believe that NUSDA will believe, as a matter of fact, in the self-determination of the country. So I believe that we should reach across the globe and in Nigeria, all over the country, every station of this country. We should not be going on this road from the premise of thinking that the whole of the north does not want self-determination. No, there are people who want self-determination. Let me tell you what happened in the 2014 Conva. I wasn't there but I've read most of the reports and I'm close to most of the people that went to that Conva. One of them, you would discover that in the middle bit that is now part and parcel of self-determination, initially resisted the full restructuring. Yes. Minority groups in the north, in the corner, not middle bit now, resisted restructuring because they said that if you restructure the country and you allow each soul to determine its fate, that the minority groups in the north will be wiped out. The minority group in the north, the Christians in the north, the animists in the north will be wiped out because by that time, there is no national mechanism to control what happens in each of the zones. So that was why at the initial stage the minorities did not and the middle bit didn't want to agree on to the back carry late Yinka of the Maki and many people to convince them on how to go to support restructuring. So now, the self-determination group must not marginalize some groups in the north who also believe in either restructuring or self-determination because I have a full army friends some of them are academics who tell me that look, you guys are black men, of course, you are black men in the full army you are just and they blame the parents for that anyways, but they have said that okay, let's even go for this restructuring and let everybody be on their own I mean, in the couple in Nigeria, they don't believe in the self-determination or this integration or whatever but they believe in the restructuring in Nigeria if you go to the north today, the educated ones are not religious extremists who tell you that Nigeria would be better off restructuring but Mr. Dibayo which do you think should be the biggest fight of Ninas and every other person who is agitated should it be a fight for restructuring a fight for self-determination or fight for constitution review it is too late to convince Ninas to support restructuring they believe all of us who have a critical restructuring in our time and they have some justification for that I would I would say that they should continue putting the pressure on the government locally and internationally on self-determination maybe we might just get restructuring you know, because once they say that oh, it's like this self-examination the good way out of it we might just get restructuring and for me I believe that a restored Nigeria is better than a rock-short Nigeria I see have some little bit of hope and faith in the corporate system of Nigeria of a restructured Nigeria we have hope and tell me that cow can come to my house so you don't believe in a review of the 1999 constitution and better electoral laws you know, you don't think that those things would probably be more important at this time as of course Nigeria remains united but with a better constitution better electoral laws stronger voice, you know, a democratic voice to the people now, even this constitution that we know, this decree 4 of 1999 that we call constitution as defective as it is a federation a federation, the public of Nigeria how has that been followed actually under the current president there's no good there's no constitution you give to a country that is faulty, that is going to work not going to work that's why there's talk about the constitution review look either for the structuring or self-examination you still have to review the constitution so don't let us put the cap before the house that we are going to do the structure it means we are going to go back to that constitution if it's self-examination, we are going to still go to review that constitution what are we going to achieve if this constitution the current constitution is being manipulated in a very negative way now, how could a federal government tell states that they cannot set up structures to secure their people that they cannot give order to criminals in their forests and towns to live why is it that the current president is protecting people who it seems it looks like he is protecting people who are a problem to some people, they are a problem to our economy in the south they are a problem to our security in the south they are a problem to our weapon, our welfare and our peace and we say we don't want cows moving about we want them run nobody is going back to anywhere if you want to ranch your cattle we are going to give you a space to do that no, it cannot be moving about it can't be bringing cattle it can't be bringing cattle if I don't have a friend in my house so cattle that is passing, we just come and mess up my compound and you expect me to look at that I won't take it lightly with anybody that does that to me and the president was listening to other voices and then I support let me say I support Nina's call for the declination of MxL because I believe they are thank you very much for your time this Wednesday morning we wish you a very interesting day ahead thank you Mr Adipu thank you so much your station is doing well continue promoting pro people pro justice issues and the sky is your beginning thank you and that's it on the breakfast this morning it's been a roller coaster ride talking about the issues politics insecurity, education and it's a wrap thank you very much for joining us today and of course you can catch up on our social media platforms pretty simple at PLOS TV Africa on Facebook and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel also at PLOS TV Africa and PLOS TV Africa lifestyle I am Osao Guy bye