 You live in the mortuary I lived in the mortuary. Yes, but not in the embalming room I mean they make it sound like you know, I slept in the crypts with them And I never climbed into a coffin or anything like that that that is so damn ridiculous And besides the dead won't bond to you It's the living you got to worry about Never talk about John Wayne Gacy. His case became big in the 70s. Greg. Don't tell us about the videos you found Yeah, this video is an interview with wrestler who was an FBI profiler in 1992 Gacy was sentenced to death in 1980 and executed in 1994 And so this is not about him trying to get free from something we'll use that as a frame Give me kind of just an overview of the business that you eventually Establish you the construction work. Is this self-time then these the instructions that you eventually the one ever the hell they're ready Give me kind of just an overview of the business that you eventually Establish you the construction work. Is this self-time then these the construction and yeah maintenance work I started doing painting and then I started doing wallpapering and decorating and inside of three years PDM which is painting decorating and maintenance was doing a million dollars a year And that was and I only had four employees and that was the business you were in one at the time of the arrests That's correct PDM in 1974 became a corporation and then I owned PDM contractors corporation I owned PDM plumbing PDM concrete and PDM decorating And then I branched off with another partner into RAF co-construction mm-hmm and From there we were doing strictly drugstores All right mark what do you got? Yeah, so he jumps in on the answer there takes that territory Also a sense of grandiosity there. There's all those Corporations that he's had you know only four employers and he had this version of the company and this version and this version So again a lot of taking of territory fairly grandiose resume there But at the same time Super low a blink rate I would expect when somebody's taking that territory and they're being slightly Aggressive I would say well more than slightly aggressive in this kind of situation I'd expect to expect to see other elements of aggression in his face and yet I see nothing blink rate really low I think all of that kind of speaks for itself and will gradually see more and more of this very flat effect and unemotional Personality as we go through Scott. What are your thoughts? I agree with it completely This is sort of his baseline. We're looking at here. So he's illustrating a lot with his head. That's fairly normal This flat affect is is showing strong here and you're right We're gonna see it throughout the throughout these videos and quite often this is compared to a shallow effect Which is it's not really the same thing. You have the blood affect and you have the Same seems like there's 40 different thousand kinds of them But what we're talking about at this or we talked about that is there's no you don't see much emotion In other words, it's flat or shallow not much there when there should be things now here There shouldn't be a whole lot. We're seeing it's fairly normal normal for this situation But that's what we're seeing here is bleak blink rate is a little bit inconsistent here, which is not odd Especially when you're just getting a baseline, but it does have those long periods of staring which Personal cue that pops up for me to go. Let's watch. Let's think about his personality type. Greg. What do you got? Yeah, so this is a great start. This is a good baseline. You both said it Remember, this is Midwest Midwest has a little bit different affect than Southerners or New Yorkers or any of that So let's use that as part of his baseline and he has that crisp telling with his chin up about all these things He did we're going to see this guy building a profile of control and he's starting right here talking about his life and the control In what he built the other interesting pieces. We always talk about eye movement This is a great study in that he goes to the right for eye recall Most of what he's doing is digital memory meaning he said that a million times So he's gonna go right over here somewhere to pick it up Some of it is visual when he starts talking about wallpaper You see his eyes dart up higher but almost everything is digital just stuff He said over and over and over. I agree with you the blink rate is not a whole lot I don't know if the affect is we'll certainly see really flat affect here I think he's just doing what he does, but I see a certain amount of control here I also think that we're gonna see what pissed off looks like in this guy is very contained when he's not in charge He punctuates by moving his head and he's got about 50-50 eye contact. So it looks pretty good chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys. It's kind of what I had my notes here the Baseline to about the nine hour nine o'clock as we're looking at it and then moving up to our kind of two o'clock. I Think this is maybe just one for data recall And I think this two o'clock position is something that you'll see again and again in his baseline for interpersonal relations when he thinks about other people But what we're seeing is almost socially appropriate behavior He's moving away while he's interrupting the person with almost polite and he's covering his mouth to cough Which is a few indicators that I will be looking for how much politeness is present and how many how much manners does this person have? So his pupils are around five millimeters in in diameter right now We're gonna see that change in a little while and in this chest breathing him breathing into his chest Versus the abdomen the chest is more likely to indicate stress is his baseline So we see that in just about every video of them that's out there So his shoulders are moving that means is most likely breathing into his chest Abdominal breathing just as a side note means person's more relaxed feels safer and moves your shoulders a lot less You can give it a shot right now. Give me kind of just an overview of the business that you eventually Establish you the construction work. Is this self-taught than the the construction set you eventually the one ever the hell they're ready Now give me kind of just an overview of the business that you eventually Establish you the construction work. Is this self-taught than the the construction and yeah maintenance work I started doing painting and then I started doing wallpapering and Decorating and inside of three years PDM which is painting decorating and maintenance was doing a million dollars a year and that was and I only had four employees And that was the business you were in at the time of the arrests. That's correct. PDM in 1974 became a corporation and then I owned PDM Contractors Corporation. I owned PDM plumbing PDM concrete and PDM decorating and then I branched off with another partner into RAFCO construction and From there we were doing strictly drug stores To go in one direction at one time the subdivision where the Somerdale house is located is built on a clay field and When it rained the rain would come down from both ends and would flood from from one house to the other The crawl space would fill up with water in 1976 I asked a lamb scaper. I said, what do you do for for that sour odor of clay? And he said spread white line just regular masonry line on the ground He said it'll sweeten up the clay and you won't have that odor. It's sort of like what Charco doesn't filter anything That's why the line was spread in the crawl space. How much the land was spread down there eventually. I Think seven or eight hundred pounds of it Yeah, if you notice there's more concern on his brow now He's starting to talk about something that matters and you'll see a little bit of this brow drawn right here These these muscles will tighten to show some concern and you can see he's done that a fair amount in his life He gives too much detail here He's making a rational reason and we always say that people slow down their illustrators when they are Making up something they're not telling the truth But really good liars are going to use their hands and the guy who was hidden 29 bodies has lied a few times about something So this is a practice story all the stuff about water running in he's overly illustrative with his hands shows that concern in his brow His eyes narrow his eyes narrowed down as he gets to this point. We're gonna see he doesn't show outright anger But there's places in here where you can see anger in him as he goes through here and all the things he's saying Maybe true. I did ask a guy about how do you do it with a smell and he told me lime Well, he wasn't talking about because of water. He's talking about dead bodies under under the basement We'd still be all the same stories So he may be using real facts to cover up something like I always say When I had lunch with Barry Menkow, he said Fraud is the skin of the truth stuff with lies. So think of that watch him too He's drawing pulling taffy pulling turning his head and keeping his eyes locked and drawing you to him That wasn't in his baseline. So it tells me something's up. Scott. What do you got? All right, when he says built on a clay field clay shows what some people gonna think is a micro expression of contempt or disdain It's not it's because his mouth doesn't work there on those is his right side So he's overcompensating for that. I don't know if he's had a stroke or a brain injury or what's going on My thoughts gonna go to brain injury, you know, well, but we'll go along with that a little bit later on So the structure of his answer has four succinct parts And each part is a brick by brick build of the reasons why he didn't do that or couldn't have done it When he starts bringing in the part about the about the clay and that shallow affect is the part that makes this thing sound Even more analytical. It makes him sound like he's really He'd like his vernacular is often what he usually the way he usually talks because it's a little bit off from what He was talking in the video we use as his baseline Which was obviously his baseball a baseline quite often you'll see in these situations the eyebrows will go up and in Greg's thing request for approval We don't see that very much here and it's something like this. It should be there But it's not we see the brief little shots of it every now and then throughout these videos, but here it's not there Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I fully agree with you guys on this there's something wrong with a little piece of this and I'll dig deeper into this But linguistically he's using the word Somerdale house instead of my house or the house So that he gives it an official title something moved away from him He's comfortable using body narration here with the rain flooding the neighborhood he's using his body to talk about all this he's illustrating that and Then he says that's why the lime was in the crawl space and right here. We have a postural retreat Which is when he kind of lean back away from the interviewer They have lip compression and we have a chin boss movement all on that's why the line was in the space And then it goes to how much lime again, and he's right back to genuine stuff There's genuine eye movement recall at his baseline He gives an estimated number of people who are lying are more likely to give a smaller range or to show a little more doubt And then there's nodding right after the number he nods his head So I think there's truth deception and then truth here, which is just a little Ham sandwich of deception mark. What do you think? Yeah? So I think he wasn't expecting the quantity Question because we do get a shift in his baseline about when he normally tells a story He's he's kind of overly helpful. It's full of almost kind of bureaucratic analysis of Of the topography the geography of it We don't really need any of that but he gets into that and then his eyes shift when he's asked the the quantity question He gives an uh, which we haven't had from him before He's usually very controlled around the way he delivers There's some lip retraction there a vocal click blink rate goes up and and I think those nods are nods for Approval I just I'm not suggesting is he's lying just like you chase But I think it's it's a good baseline for when he hasn't rehearsed the story on on this Could be genuine Information but not anything he was thinking of getting now. I think on that's why the line was spread in the crawl space As well as what you saw that chase I think I see delight now I'm not saying juper's delight that would be something very different But slow down those frames are there and just see whether you can see some kind of of of glint of Delight or joy. It's very very subtle But it's interesting because I wonder what that delight is Is about if I've read that right, what is that delight about? Is it not fellow, isn't he to go in one direction at one time? The subdivision where the Somerdale house is located is built on a clay field and When it rained the rain would come down from both ends and would flood from from one house to the other the crawl space would fill up with water in 1976 I asked a lamp scaper. I said, what do you do for? For that sour odor of clay that he said spread white line just regular masonry line on the ground He said it'll sweeten up the clay and you won't have that odor. It's sort of like what Charcot doesn't filter anything That's why the line was spread in the crawl space. How much the line was spread down there eventually. I Think seven or eight hundred pounds of it John how about Tim McCoy the last one of the five that you say you have personal knowledge of Tim McCoy Even though he's the last one. He's the first one. He's the first one actually right the first of the 33 Tim Tim McCoy was it was the first one and Tim McCoy's name wasn't put on him until 1988 Prior to that he was known as unknown number nine and he was buried by me in the crawl space That's the only knowledge that I have of it. What was the circumstances of that? He was killed in the house in self-defense and who killed him then I Saved him. Yeah, and it was a man an issue of self-defense. What why was he in the process of assaulting you or what? He was coming at me with a knife. I just took the knife away and twist it in his hand and That that's what killed him So at that point you yourself did bury him then in the crawl space, right? And if you if you notice he's under concrete Did you bury any of the others in the crawl space? No, I had nothing I had no knowledge of yeah Well, why is it that yours? Your first one is there and then you know 20 some Others are buried down there as well Did somebody know that you had done this with the first one that giving them an idea more than likely when drinking and getting high with the Other share admitting it to them So you feel others and followed your suit and in using this as a burial ground Without a doubt Chase, what do you got right off the bat? He was buried by me in the crawl space This is distancing language if I did something I would say I buried him in the crawl space And then it goes to that's the only knowledge that I have of it It it's a strange worse word usage here, but then there's also a head tilt Which is unusual for his baseline. I think he is likely to do this during his deceptive statements There's an immediate withdrawal of his head kind of pulls back away from the interviewer and the eyes dart to Emotional recall right away when he's saying this and There's a contempt micro expression right at that moment right at that exact moment You'll see contempt there what I think is a contempt micro expression Scott may bury me under the floor boards for saying that Then there's a swallow and fading facts all in the exact same thing And when he's talking about he was killed in the house not I killed him There's more distancing language another head tilt. There's lip retraction. There's chin boss movement, which is grief or shame And then it continues on with this distancing language. That's what killed him and I'm sure you guys will get the other ones here I don't want to take it up everything But why is it that the first one is there and some 20 others? You know the interviewer goes through this question There's a postural retreat and the hand disappears below the table and what I think is genital protection, which is a fear behavior And I think there's a possibility that the story is actually true I think there's a possibility that that person was in his house unwillingly and maybe he tried to escape and maybe did come after him with a knife which Would still help his little self-defense story or maybe he tried to escape and he called it self-defense But he never talks about how that person got into his house He just says he came at me with a knife if someone breaks in your house will say some dude kicked him my door and started demanding to Where's the jewelry? Where's the money? No, he just came up with a knife So I think maybe there was an attempted escape with that one before he learned some of his Psychopath lessons great. What do you think? Yeah, this one is probably the one I'm gonna be longest-winded on because I have three pages and now It's this is probably the worst of the entire thing. He starts off like you said everything is passive Everything is passive if you look he starts off with some kind of lip compression at the very beginning of it Something is up there. Don't know which questions started it It's interesting that when wrestler asked him about all 33 He doesn't protest it at all. He lets it slide by if I killed two people and was really really adamant I killed two people I'd say didn't kill 33 I killed two but he doesn't he just lets it pass What we're gonna see here is a pattern of a guy who has gotten so odd that Everything's okay and normal and he can talk about it kind of casually if tomorrow chase you decide you're gonna start drinking cooking oil in a month Cooking oil drinking would be normal and you'd talk to people about it's wonderful. It tastes like this This guy killed 29 people 29 and buried them in his basement Most of them some of me buried under his driveway and could even tell you exactly how they were lying the story if you go watch these Interviews is fantastic. I mean, it's a horrible story, but it's a fantastic bunch of police work He says was killed passive was buried any distances and uses passive in that case was buried by me That's the only knowledge I have of it. I got the same thing disdain shows when he does that's the only knowledge I have of it. I think in some case He's disappointed in that he didn't get away with it or something something showing because there's disdain and then their shame So whatever was there? He was killed in the house in self-defense in this one I think I see anger I see lip withdrawal But I also see a narrowing of the mouth and a lower whites of his eyes show That's anger that upper lid is down and a lower lid is lower That's anger and when you see that in somebody who is not in control imagine what it would be if they weren't controls away Look at this guy Then that chin boss shows up again. There's another lip compression There's just a bunch of complex emotions flooding his face that we haven't seen to here He says I stabbed him his lips rise just a bit and then he stopped If you stop the video right there mark back to your amusement if you stop the video right there and pause it There's pleasure in his face. You can see amusement when he was asked Questions about self-defense his eyes went down right and then he didn't move his eyes at all when he was shaking his head He was locked on this guy's eyes and pulling his eyes around his head as he moved I Took it away. I'll leave that one long You get when he says I took it away and I spun it around him and stabbed him get a chin shut in defiance and then He sounds like it's an ordinary shooting weekend. Well, yeah, I buried him under concrete Well, obviously anybody I killed I buried under concrete. So the rest of those guys are not mine I'm not sloppy. I'm a controlled guy. I build things for a living I got the stuff. I'll leave it there because there's just so much in that one passage that I could go on probably another 10 minutes Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. It's all very controlled. You know, if you look it's in the manual This is how I did it if you care to look so it's incredibly bureaucratic there he is with that almost kind of telephone directory size. I don't know manual Dictionary of Murder essentially Lots of numbers he comes up with lots of numbers. So it really is, you know an accountancy of What went on at the same time? I agree kind of lets the 30 the 30 odd people slide when it's put forward But what's odd for me is he doesn't own up to it. He does let it slide through I'm still confused at this point as why he's denying The murder of some of these people. I don't quite get that other than he's really odd He's really odd and he's decided that he's gonna own up to some and deny some my guess is is that changes Over that you probably get them in another interview and he's now owning up to some and denying some others I'm guessing it could change on a on a weekly monthly yearly basis for him as to what how he's gonna perform in these Situations that the main thing for me is that we do see some fleeting emotions Around his face of of anger delight. I would agree Greg around the killing Well, we don't see his fear or sorrow and and again that classifies him within a Psychology for sure if I talked about harming somebody Certainly killing you would probably see some elements of fear or or sorrow around that because You know, I have a socially primed brain part of my brain knows that's kind of wrong to do that that stuff You couldn't know you might kind of shouldn't it's wrong. I Would pretty much guarantee he doesn't have the same feelings around around that Scott. What do you think? All right, we'll start with chase chase I agree with you where the severity softening language was he was buried by me not I buried him He's he's moved himself away from that I'm gonna have a problem with with most everybody here on the part where he shows disdain or contempt Because after he says that's the knowledge. That's all the knowledge. I have that's the only knowledge I have of it and it looks like contempt, but it's not it's regret But it's modified by the pro paralysis of the right side of his mouth now The clinical psychopath has no feelings of remorse or getter sadness or whatever This behavior is seen when you see someone who has damage to the amygdala Where they've been in a car wreck been hitting head with a shovel been hit by a car those kind of things Something's happened this guy where that's happened because his behavior like mark was saying is odd You keep saying he's not got he's odd because he has damage to his amygdala. I bet a thousand I get all of it all my chips go on that now when that happens That's when you see this odd behavior because they're right next to being normal They're right next to be nor but you see this dramatic drop off from normality to just the freakiest stuff You can possibly imagine which is what he comes with what he does is what he gets into we're seeing lip compression Right and left here now what appears to be lip lip compression after he said killed in self-defense is anger You got the you nailed that Greg. Oh, of course you would I don't mean to be I'm not complimenting you Good job Greg But so yeah, so this but that's normal lip compression at that point For that and again that goes back to the psychopath was damaged who has damaged to the amygdala not a classic psychopath Now the severity softening the language on I just took the knife away and twisted it in his hand And that's what killed him doesn't say for the second time where he could I stabbed him What if he took it away from and it was in his he said I took it away from and it was in his hand So we've got two things there that just don't that doesn't work You can't take it away from and have it in his hand and twist it and him be dead So he stabbed me with that so there's a lot going on there But I think what we're looking at here is somebody who's got damaged to the amygdala, but it's not it's not the in the nature versus nurture Fight over our psychopaths born or are they created this one what's created? I don't know when But he was created John how about Tim McCoy the last one of the five that you say you have personal knowledge of Tim McCoy even though he's the last one he's the first one he's the first one actually right the first of the 33 Tim Tim McCoy was was the first one and Tim McCoy's name wasn't put on him until 1988 Prior to that he was known as unknown number nine and he was buried by me in the crawl space That's the only knowledge that I have of it. What was the circumstances of that? He was killed in the house In self-defense and who killed him then I Saved him. Yeah, and it was a man an issue of self-defense. What why was he in the process of assaulting you or what? He was coming at me with a knife. I just took the knife away and twist it in his hand and That's what killed him So at that point you yourself did bury him then in the crawl space, right? And if you if you notice he's under concrete Did you bury any of the others in the crawl space? No, I had nothing I had no knowledge of yeah Well, why is it that yours your first one is there and then you know 20 some Others are buried down there as well Did somebody know that you had done this with the first one that giving them an idea more than likely when drinking and getting High with the others share admitting it to them So you feel others and followed your suit and in using this as a burial ground Without a doubt And you took him where? Out on the I-55 bridge and that's where How was he then taken from the car and placed into the into the river? Just opened up the trunk and up man. Okay. There was no there was no big special deal Yeah, I couldn't get down in the crawl space that easy and then I had a bum back to begin with you Gotta crawl on your belly to move around in the crawl space There is no way that I could have done any of the digging down there. I Had enough trouble just getting down there. Greg. What do you got? I'm gonna be real short of this one This is a normal guy talking if you're not paying attention you think okay This is normal guy talking except for what he's talking about again. This has become so normal to him He thought yeah, I had a quarter cooking oil this morning with my cereal. That's what's going on This guy's gotten so freakin weird and so Criminal that it's just normal for him to talk about this stuff. Look at his dominant eye We always say your dominant eye is what you shoot with and it's where you do most of your data intake Look at that dominant eye shrinking. He's pissed at this guy And if you can see you can't see it in his face You can see starting to get a little hostile You see his face starting to wrench around a little and then the thing that you're gonna pay attention to from here On out is when he's feeling that kind of anger or hostility his eyes dart down into his right boom I think what you're doing is you're tapping into the anger some emotion you're tapping into but we're seeing that reflection Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so again, I think he says the eye 94 then there for the for the bridge again, it's it's bureaucratic It's it's numbers. It's it's things not feelings Zero feeling on on on the bridge there. I mean, why would you have a feeling? It's the eye 94 bridge it's it's a thing but then when we get to crawling on your belly and In order to dig holes to bury people which he says he didn't he couldn't possibly have done again, it's it's It's bureaucratic in the way that he's going through it Blink rate is maybe a touch higher on that and then he breaks that with a little bit of laughter will see a lot more laughter Later on I think that's that's gonna be seen as an indicator of He's being dishonest and he breaks the tension that's building up around that that dishonesty with some laughter I think we see it here I'm not quite sure I agree with him having seen a few details of this I don't quite see how you dig holes underneath there But you know, this is clearly somebody who could do anything he likes So I'm I don't think it's beyond him to dig You know 30 centimeter holes that deep holes or whatever it was underneath in a very thin space I think where there's a will There's a there's a way and I think he's got the will and he's got the way around that chase. What do you think? Yeah, right away the interviewer asked you took him where and then we see the exact thing from the first video that we looked at with The baseline we see the nine and a clock for data and then two o'clock for what I In my opinion labeled some kind of interpersonal recall or visual recall And he's saying there's no way I could have done the digging and This is the exact opposite of his normal eye movement He goes to three o'clock when he usually goes to nine And there's a non contraction which is also outside of his baseline There's no way I could have instead of could have he contracts everything that he possibly can in his normal speech And this crawl space is actually pretty damn big If you look at any of the police photos of this crawl space, which I do not recommend that you do but It's it's pretty big. There's some people that are almost standing all the way up down there and Him denying the crimes because of the size of the crawl space is like an English prince denying a crime because of a lack of an ability to sweat Just doesn't mean that is never that would never happen. That's bizarre. Yeah But in in reality, we're missing denial We are missing a full denial in this entire thing every denial is soft and couched And the denial is about getting in the crawl space in the denial is never about I did not kill those people There's no strong confident denial. There's not even a partially confident denial Scott. We go. All right, so far the most eyebrow movement We've seen throughout this is here we see more than anywhere else up to this point but he's using short on point senses and This but this is where like Greg always says I go I go deeper in here because something just not right about this About what he's talking about there. Something just sounds odd in there I'm not sure quite what it is But it sounds like something these you need more ask more questions around that is me is blink rates really low And that's you see that quite often somebody who's lying to you the reason being their brain What's to keep an eye on you to make sure you believe them? So everybody always says we always talked about this when somebody lies to you had the biggest myth is how they broke Eye contact so I know they like they were lying. Nope quite often. They know you think that so they won't do it number two And number one their brain wants to keep an eye on you to make sure you believe them So when they start adding qualifiers if you pause after you're after they give you the first answer And they start adding qualifiers to that There are more reasons to why that what they're saying is true Then they'll they'll be able to watch you and keep an eye on you at the same time So as cadence is a lot faster here is voice tones a little bit higher is a little bit louder However at the end there where he says There's no way I could have done the digging down there We hear fading facts where he says down there now keep in mind this guy had a construction company So if you think for one second he didn't know he's talking about his use concrete and a construction company Greg be able to tell you each run one of those you have You know that concrete, you know how to use it You know how to dig a hole and put somebody in it and use concrete to fill it up I think I think this guy is just slowly, but surely he's telling us everything without telling us everything And you took it where? Out on the I-55 bridge and that's where How was he then taken from the car and placed into the into the river? Just open up the trunk and that man Okay, there was no there was no big special deal Yeah, I couldn't get down in the crawl space that easy and then I had a bum back to begin with You got a crawl on your belly to move around in the crawl space There is no way that I could have done any of the digging down there. I Had enough trouble just getting down there Now when the when the search warrants were affected in your case They did they did find an awful lot in the crawl space of your home. Did they not well? Yeah, I had offered to sell them the house because I thought there was nothing down in the crawl space Yeah, I had never had any qualms about I'm going down in the crawl space Well, how many bodies were located on the property and where to my understanding there was a total of 29 bodies or 28 bodies were found on the property 26 27 of them under the house and the rest One was under the driveway one was on the garage. So that makes total of 29. Okay, Mark. What do you got? It's a really simple this one a lots of concern there lots of nodding of the head lots of trying to be helpful and Trying to be very helpful again with the mathematics here again. See how he's very much into categories of things Humbering things and not into any of the feelings that might happen around people Again super low blink rate as well. He's an odd chap. That's all I got Chase. What do you think? Yeah? He shifts to internal dialogue during the question with his eyes, which is kind of down here or down here And the eyes move down in that direction for internal dialogue When we are rehearsing something or planning something so he's planning his answer as the question is being completed Before it's completed Then we see lip-licking Both are preparation for presentation. I just call them both of that. So this lip-licking is kind of a hygienic gesture that Subconsciously a lot of what we talked about is we don't ever mention it We don't mention it often enough, but these are unconscious behaviors that a person's not thinking about So just making the person look a little bit better licking the lip suggesting the hair picking imaginary lens Those are all semi hygienic gestures, but when he says I offered to sell him the house It's a difference between I didn't know there were bodies and I thought there was nothing I didn't know there were any bodies in the house or I thought there was nothing down to there There's a big difference between those two phrases and when he finally mentions the bodies There's a progressive head tilt back to his his base his deception baseline progressive head tilt There's a contempt. I think still facial expression contempt at 29 And I think there's genuine recall to the Locations of the bodies we see the eyes move to when he's thinking about where all these bodies were laid out Granted if he was innocent and he'd been through I don't know 700 hours of going through court and trial prep and all this stuff He'd probably still do genuine recall to the bottom locations of the body. So I just will I will say that Greg what do you got? Yeah, this guy's getting pissed. What I see here is he wants to interject but he's going I Don't see he's very controlled because he knows he has no control in the situation people who ex Exercises kind of control over other people strangle them to death and that kind of thing They have they're not going to be as open about their aggression with average people And especially sitting across from an FBI agent, but I think I see frustration I see him wanting to say something and defend himself There's a narrowing of his eyes Just as that blink rate increases and I see disgust or disdain or contempt or something You can't tell for sure. I mean he's got kind of a weird sideways thing But there's withdrawing of his lips back mark. You would call it a bitter taste. There's withdrawing of his lips back at 29 I think it's more about How he's perceived is what we're seeing here They're likely signs at his loss of control of the situation and this guy is pushing him around and I you see that lip Licking is a way of controlling frustration to me It's controlling emotion that downright eye movement is is emotion again and this guy I would just about bet you is really hot-headed to deal with and you know when they were doing their drugs or whatever We know that he was violent clearly when you can kill 33 people because they're talking about 29 buried on the property, but 33 people killed and there's some math Associated with he was Pogo the Clown for 33 flavors ice cream place when they asked me says that's kind of ironic That kind of thing. So it's it's a really interesting twisted story Scott. What do you got? All right His cadence his cadence and toner still up He's still he still sounds excited, but I agree with the Greg He's trying to hold back that anger at this point and he gives it a reason to it Gives reasoning to how he had no no knowledge of what happened or no knowledge of that. This isn't unusual but it's just kind of off and off right here and that's that's That's where I think more questions should be asked. I think right there if you were this isn't interrogation He's just talking to the guy just interviewing him But that's where you jump in and start asking more questions and almost start pushing him around to get that stuff out of The structure of that answer that's a red flag, but again not interrogation just an interview So the end isn't as an expression of contempt. That's where it stops there a lot of people gonna think Ah, there's a lot more there, but it's lip compression under stress and it's it looks like I said it looks like contempt It's not contempt So you still got that problem the right side of his mouth And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing with that because he tries to over overreact when he's We're overconfident when he's saying the vowel a where's with a unit it seems like he's overdoing it there But I think at the end there we see that lip compression due to stress. I know it in this case I think he got hit in the head with something. Oh, wait, you did say that didn't you chase you got here What what happened to is what do you get hit with a swing? It was a swing When he was 10 or 11, he suffered a traumatic brain injury in MTB. I'm mild Now when the when the search warrants were affected in your case, they did they did find an awful lot in the crawl space of your home Did they not well? Yeah, I had offered to sell them the house because I thought there was nothing down in the crawl space Yeah, I had never had any qualms about I'm going down in the crawl space Well, how many bodies were located on the property and where to my understanding? There was a total of 29 bodies or 28 bodies were found on the property 26 27 of them under the house and the rest One was under the driveway one was under the garage. So that makes total of 29. Okay John the media has has called you a homosexual killer. What is your position on homosexuality? I have nothing against it I'm I'm an outspoken liberal. I don't care for the Labeling I don't care for any labeling for that fact. Do you claim homosexuality? No, I would definitely not be homosexual I have nothing against what they do and I I don't deny that I Engaged in sex with males, but that I'm bisexual. They're bisexual, right? I my preference is women and I've been married enough times and have children and I See nothing wrong with it Chase want to go first? Sure So he grew up with tremendous shame around his sexuality and he grew up in an extremely abusive household physically abusive psychologically abusive and When the words homosexual killer come out, you'll see lip-persing and you'll see contempt and right after this You'll see perfect unilateral facial movement, which to me in my opinion would indicate that there's perfect bilateral Facial movement here in both sides of the face. But when he said when the interviewer says do you claim homosexuality? He's saying he doesn't like labels But then he calls himself an outspoken liberal, which is a label But right at this part where he's talking about do you claim homosexuality? We see an eyebrow flash We see emotional eye accessing down as the emotional part of his visual field We have vocal hesitancy, which is uncharacteristic for him. We have word repetition, which is uncharacteristic for him We have distancing language when he said would not be and there's more another right towards the end of this response There's a micro emotional accessing where his eyes just dart down to that really quick And I think at the moment we see bisexual, I think we see a contempt facial expression And when he says I see nothing wrong with it, we see the classic single shoulder shrug Which is uncharacteristic for him and suggests that a person Disagrees with what they're saying or lacks confidence in in something that they're saying there. That's all I got there mark What do you got? Yeah, I agree so the logic that he has there of often saying he's he's not a and a at the same time is Is what I might call a frustrated logic if you try and follow his pattern there. It's just frustrating You get frustrated with it. You go. How are you saying this and not this at the same time? How are you? How are you saying that there are No categories at all and then using categories. I think it's Emblematic of the internal frustration that he has he has a huge frustration with how others and himself Categorizing his sexuality that I would chance my arm is where the violence comes from and it's coming out in this Bizarre logic that he has will see it later on as well where he does an a and not a category at the same time You can't have both, but he can he does have both He does try and have both at the same time and my guess is he has to manipulate the world around him in all kinds of ways by potentially putting on all kinds of costumes in order to make these things fit and when Because essentially what what we have here when when you say I don't like categories at all There are no categories essentially you get a breakdown of society you get Antisocial behaviors because they're just are no categorical rules Anymore as long as you've got built up around that kind of personality some things to keep it in place Some moderators because they might might not have their own great Moderators, but if they're still maybe in a marriage and they've still got friends or society around them enough They'll probably the society around them will moderate them enough but when those fall away you could get that surge of frustration born out in anger and violence and Potentially a succession of murders along the way, which is I think what we get here Anyway, Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so we know his point of shame Whether should be ashamed or not He's this is something he's ashamed of because if he were not he would not be trying at all Turns to avoid it and that's exactly what we see here the first real blink rate increase We've really seen his blink rate goes through the roof on this and his head is moving a hell of a lot more than it did in the past Videos he doesn't complete sentences. He starts editing it as he speaks When he's asked are you a homosexual killer? There's a quick eye contact staring dead down the camera to see how that got perceived that That one comment and then you see him moving differently his head's more glitchy He does downright and when he says I would definitely downright We associate with emotion chase you brought up the emotional accessing piece when he looks down into his right We associate that with emotional eye accessing and then he does distancing language I would definitely not be homosexual and then he said I don't deny that Internal voice down to his left as he thinks about how to say this in the least damaging fashion There's a long pause and then he goes I engaged in sex with male Forget all the rest. This tells you that killing. He's okay with talking about killing But homosexuality. He's not willing to say he's a homosexual because he also likes sex with women That's as good as he can get to get away from the thing that he's most ashamed or hurt by and mark Probably I'm not the psychologist on this I bet he's been studied like a like a lab rat and then know what his you know It's fracture points and all those things work But I got Scott, what do you got? Yeah, it looks y'all have covered everything. I'm gonna go back over all that stuff I don't think he's a hide-and-hold lot here. He is some things and he separates himself Distances distances himself from homosexuality That's all he got. That's and that's basically a nutshell. Everybody said there John the media has has called you a homosexual killer. What is your position on homosexuality? I have nothing against you I'm I'm an outspoken liberal. I don't care for the Labeling I don't care for any labeling for that fact. I mean, do you claim homosexuality? No, I would Definitely not be homosexual. I Have nothing against what they do and I I don't deny that I Engaged in sex with males, but that I'm bisexual. They're bisexual, right? My preference is women and I've been married enough times and have children and I see nothing wrong with it The clowning was relaxation for me. I enjoyed entertaining kids like some people are you know, they They unwind in different ways either they're going out drinking or that I could put on clown makeup and I was relaxed And I enjoyed doing it. I was Twice it was only twice a month that I did Yeah, this was not using for a lure to draw kids to you is no we would visit different hospitals and Entertain the children there and we didn't entertain them with handcuffs or anything like that All we used was balloon animals and small toys and stuff like that But we also did parades and in the summertime like on 4th of July I used to be in four parades in one day I've always told people when I got in the clown makeup. I regressed in the childhood It was fun being a clown because you could you could be yourself or just let yourself go and act a fool You could be slapstick and funny and have a good time. That's why I always enjoyed clowning Clowning has taken a bad name Because of what they've used in my case All right, I've gone last in the last four so I go first on this one. His voice tone cadence cadence are relaxed and smooth It's a little bit fast, but I think that's because clowning excites him because one of things he really likes They're apparently the thing that really got him relaxed or got him mellowed out See stress mouth when he's interrupted by that by the guy talking to him in the middle of that discussion About one of his favorite things and it's it's a little bit more than a hint of anger as he as we see the lip compression there But just before lips compress that's when we see though that we see the both lips tightening and just a hint up here Going up showing anger Then he compares using handcuffs. He's talking about little children and going to entertain kids But he uses handcuffs juxtaposed against balloons That's it. That's that's odd. It goes back to that shallow affect we talked about earlier Whereas it's he sees no it doesn't bother him to be talking about handcuffs and things he used to murder people with or in those events and balloons and children at the same time That's all I got Chase what do you got? You never heard of the old handcuffs in the hospital with kids routine. Yeah, it's a classic, but nobody remembers it. Nobody remembers that When when the interviewer says are you gonna lure are you doing this to lure kids to you his adapting? increases to use Greg and Scott's word where he's starting to adjust papers on the table with both hands and we also see some Chin boss movement here where this muscle comes up grief or shame is what we see with that And when he says different hospitals we're trying to land at different hospitals He shifts to using team pronouns team focused He says we went around to different hospitals and we did this this is softening and Socializing the visits because there's a team at play here. It's not just me other people did this But then when he talked about for parades in one day, he shifts back to the self-pronouns and This shift can sometimes indicate where shame is hiding or where guilt is felt most Somebody goes into a team pronoun like a lots of people did this so it's widely accepted That's where you see hidden shame or hidden guilt And when he was talking about regressing in childhood He says I always tell people This is a phrase people use when they're unwilling to say it now and They have to quote some kind of past behavior Then we see an eyebrow flash to the interviewer, which is a request for approval. It's the biggest one yet I think his hands get more animated here And I think there's actual enjoyment on the face for dressing up and clown and making people happy I do think he derived some enjoyment from that And he's saying clowning is taking a bad name This is a perfect example of last-minute shift to internal dialogue to process what to say Right before he says clowning or clown is taking a bad name and then he's talking about how his case affected it It definitely did. I think Stephen King wrote a book off of this potentially And this is the internal dialogue shift that you'll see a micro shift down and to his right Or I'm sorry to to your right And as a fun fact To wrap up my little thing here his last meal in prison was Kentucky fried chicken and a pound of strawberries Greg what do you got? Yeah, I'm not gonna cover a lot because you covered a lot of it that great big request for approval You can't miss when he's doing that the one where he does right eye access And remember every time he was recalling something about his construction company He's looking over here whether it's wrote digital memory or something auditory I'm sure he found some really tough visual cue and it went up here when he's talking about those handcuffs His eyes went to the right that makes me a little concerned Whether it's with children or some other way that that came up in his mind The other one I would say is this I love dogs. I got a pack of dogs at all times Dogs roll in dead animals. You know how they do that so they don't smell like a predator and they can sneak up on things people who do really grandiose behaviors like I met Rosalind Carter. I'm doing this. I'm doing I'm always Looking behind the curtains on those guys just to say wait a minute not saying all people that do that Are bad guys But it's a really easy way to hide if you roll around and stuff and you look like and smell like other people Then they trust you I'm careful with that and when I see that clowning got a bad name You're dead on chase and watch that Internal dialogue is trying to think of something positive To say to come out of this mess because there's nothing positive. He can say about what he did That's the whole truth and all that good stuff that he did is now been taken down He probably did do good things for kids At the same time he's murdering teenage boys. It's just the way it goes Mark what do you got? Yeah, I think there may well be an element there greg of hidden in plain sight And we've seen that with others who are serial offenders Um that that immersing yourself in an entertainment role And especially around charity is a great way to deflect and distract from what's really going on Of course, I'm talking about savel that we may touch on at some point um So, uh, yeah, I agree with you as well greg. There's that look to the side on and we didn't entertain them with handcuffs or anything like that Look to the side and I see delight As well, you're right chase it could be delight for and a general delight about the enjoyment of of being a clown I think his enjoyment is probably about the release of playing a role the enjoyment of that release as he says, you know You can you can be a fool without penalty My guess is is there was a penalty for being a fool back when he was the kid This is a chance for him to be a fool in front of society and there is no penalty his dad is not gonna You know hit him around being stupid So there's freedom and and release and of course the costume helps him Transgress the usual social rules remember in the circus the clowns are the things that come out of the circus ring They get right in the audience with their buckets of water and slop and glitter and and the lions and the really dangerous things there They stay within that within that uh that circle So clowns are always known for transgressing the usual social rules and ultimately This is what he he does he transgresses the usual social rules of what you might What you might do with your sexual energy repressed sexual energy if you have no boundaries on it anymore And it turns into the the monstrous lineup of murders that he commits I would imagine That he potentially used other manipulative roles other roles Around these murders not necessarily a clown, but but other role play in order to manipulate people um into situations where they would they would accept as being Normal something that isn't normal that is antisocial or something antisocial about to happen I'm not quite sure how he how he got people into positions where I mean to murder 30 other people You gotta have a system you gotta have a You know you gotta have some kind of system my guess is there was some kind of role play that went on there As well and being a clown would be a great way to practice that Great way to see you know if I dress up in this costume if I do these kind of things How am I accepted? How can I do things that aren't normally acceptable in general society? The clowning was relaxation for me. I enjoyed entertaining kids like some people are you know they They unwind in different ways either either were going out drinking or that I could put on clown makeup and I was relaxed And I enjoyed doing it. I it was uh Twice it was only twice a month that I did. Yeah, this was not used in for allure to to draw kids to you is No, we would visit different hospitals And entertain the children there and we didn't entertain them with handcuffs or anything like that All we used was uh balloon animals and small toys and stuff like that But we also did parades and in the summertime like on 4th of july I used to be in Four parades in one day. I've always told people when when I got in the clown makeup I regressed in the childhood. It was fun being a clown because you could You you could be yourself or just let yourself go and act a fool You could be slapstick and funny and have a good time. That's why I always enjoyed clowning Clowning has taken a bad name I Because of what they've used in my case Uh, just to just want to highlight uh on uh John zik, you know, they want they want to make such an issue over john zik And his disappearance. I think he was killed for his car personally And you and your personal knowledge of this of the zik uh case then is uh is my personal knowledge of the zik cases is that I had come home And zik and rossi were at the house. I had a few drinks I went to bed when I woke up the the next morning rossi was sleeping on the couch and zik was dead on the floor I went about my own business and he was gone Later on and where did he go? Where did he end up? I assumed he ended up in the crawl space Did you see him being transported down there? No wasn't present didn't do the didn't do the transporting But when he was dead, he was dead on the floor. He was dead on the floor. Yes And did you have conversation with anybody about that? No In other words, I uh, I just kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to get involved My idea was to just stay out of it. All right, greg what do you got? Yeah, this is a creepy creepy one not like the restaurant But when he talks about the guy starts off with kind of some lip movement. He's agitated He stutters and stammers a bit one of the more interesting things that we see in this video is hiding time without ever verbal bridging It is a beautiful hiding time. I went to bed I got up the body was there never said He said he went to bed. He never said there were any fighting or anything else He never said that he didn't kill him. He simply said when I got up the body was on the floor And then that is a beautiful case of hiding time just a way to avoid it when he says If you watch him he's eye blocking in the middle of that and then when he says I went about my business Watch that request for approval. We didn't see it earlier, but we certainly see it now and scott. I'm gonna steal one of yours He does the chicken movement in his head and his eyes staying locked the whole time his eyes don't leave it all He's doing the romance or he's eye locking trying to make sure the guy's paying attention to the things he wants him to And watch it's one of the more odd things here that request for approval goes in and then he says Um, did you see his blink rate goes through the roof? And He his blink rate also flashes pretty hard when he says I didn't want to be involved. I'll never mind the guy's in your basement You thought he's in your basement Okay, mark you can come to my house to kill somebody just clean up police. Exactly. Put him down in the basement Everybody knows that you'll go about your business Everybody knows that this is another good example of feeding the wrong wolf to use all those analogies People use about the good wolf and the bad wolf and which one you feed this guy has been feeding the wrong wolf It's clear. Let's taste what you got Uh, so this is one of the rare times we actually see full question repetition When we asked him about personal knowledge of the zik case, he does a full question repetition And when he's saying the zik was dead on the floor He tries to socialize this awkward situation using facial and in head movements like you were talking about kreg Then this is a total lack of normal baseline narration with hands. There's it's gone And then he's just went about his day You know, just like anybody else would after they just step over a dead body on their floor And there's a lot of hesitancy here. He's not known for hesitancy. So we're seeing a lot of deviation from baseline Nobody's saying I went about business and he was gone. There's vocal hesitancy there Hiding time or missing time. Whatever you want to call it is Pretty good. And there's a large eyebrow flash like great. You were talking about A small shift to internal dialogue, which I won't really dig into but here's the crux of this Here's the most important thing to take away from this This is a normal part of his story Because it's normal for him if there was a body and he didn't kill it. He wouldn't care I don't think it would have emotionally affected him and I think he believes just like everybody else We tend to think other people are just like us and that's one of our biggest mistakes when we interrogate people When we influence other people we automatically assume Everybody's like me, you know, like That's why some some guys get their wives like chain saws for their for a christmas gift or something like that I want to give them what I want to get As a quick footnote, he was diagnosed by multiple psychologists with antisocial personality disorder And there's a lot more on that to come in the next video Scott, what do you got? All right Once give me see this shallow affect displayed as he talks about waking up and finding a body in the living room Doesn't bother him doesn't seem to bother him. He talks about it like it was something normal For example, if he talks about like I walked in and this one guy sleep on the couch And there's a bunch of dirty clothes there in the floor bunch very laundry. That's like nothing to him He's not showing the emotions you should show or you would expect one to show in this if it really did happen Um, and they experienced that we're not seeing any of that at all not even a little bit Um The again this goes back to my theory of the of the difference in a clinical psychopath and the one who has Amygdala damage or or damage to the limbic system somehow He he doesn't something and the difference in in the clinical psychopath They may attempt to show some kind of of emotion during this because they know they should they've been watching other people They don't understand what emotions are so over the years they watch and they mimic them He's not even mimicking here. So I think there's not that part of his brain. That's why I don't think he's the Born this way. I think some happened to him because he doesn't even try to mimic that He doesn't try to to pretend it's normal or or Not normal. He doesn't have the the facial expressions that show and that came in and this guy was dead on the Nothing, he shows no emotion. What's over? What's whoever in there in that? So for me in this situation, there's no rational thinking or thinking that a rational person would do When those emotions should be shown, we're not we're not seeing those. I don't think he thinks that way All right, what do you got? All right Yeah, so social behavior social behavior and and there's been some nights You know where you you go to bed and you get up the next morning You go downstairs and you're kind of climbing over bodies And you know you check to see that you know people are okay And then yeah, you go back your business you go off to work and you kind of hope they'll have been gone by Lunchtime and their hangovers have disappeared. You know you kind of hope In his particular case You know if it were me and I'm climbing over bodies and one of them's dead Like that would be the point where you then do not go about your business, you know It's all gone pear shaped clearly and and you know, there's a whole bunch of ramifications But the usual social responsibility is if somebody's dead You have to deal with all of that all of that stuff for him. Yes. It's odd, isn't it? Had a drink went to bed dead people dead person went about my business That is antisocial. It's not the norm for a social society. Now what really for me Pins this one down and I always dislike seeing this is bureaucratic behavior We've had it in the numbers We've had it in the way that he organizes things and now you see him shuffling the papers Now you see it's like the end of the news report Shuffling shuffling the paper. These are just papers. These are just, you know, lists of numbers and and things Things that died things that I buried Yeah, very bureaucratic behavior again a great example of this is not somebody you put in charge of countries You don't let them be put in charge of anything where they're in charge of large amounts of human life It's not going to go well. Not going to go well at all shuffling those papers massive red flag for me Just just want to highlight uh and John zik, you know, they want they want to make such an issue over john zik And his disappearance. I think he was killed for his car personally And your in your personal knowledge of this of the zik uh case then is uh is my personal knowledge of the zik cases is that I had come home And zik and rossi were at the house. I had a few drinks I went to bed when I woke up the the next morning rossi was sleeping on the couch and zik was dead on the floor I went about my own business and he was gone Later on and where did he go? Where did he end up? I assumed he ended up in the crawl space Did you see him being transported down there? No wasn't present didn't do the didn't do the transporting But when he was dead he was dead on the floor He was dead on the floor. Yes Did you have a conversation with anybody about that? No In other words, I uh, I just kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to get involved My idea was just just stay out of it I was 19 when I ran away and that was in In 80 not 80 60 61 I went to las vegas for three months Took off took my car and left. Yeah, I worked for palm mortuary Being the night man picking up bodies at the hospitals and stuff for them. I worked as a night man only I did they have nothing to do with the bodies all this talk that I slept with the dead ones or Had sex with dead bodies that there is no truth to any of that He didn't live in the mortuary. I lived in the mortuary. Yes, but not in the embalming room I mean they make it sound like you know, I slept in the crypts with them And I never climbed into a coffin or anything like that. That that is so damn ridiculous It you know, it's the same thing the contention is that I slept all night with robert peace If you want to say slept in the same house with a dead body. Okay fine. I'll buy that but in the same room. No And besides the dead won't bond to you It's the living you got to worry about All right, greg what do you got? I'm gonna just have a few there's this is a heyday This is one of the creepiest things we're gonna see ever ever ever and all the things we watch and we've seen some doozies There's more right I accessing is he's recalling facts even though he's saying and denying When he's talking about having sex with dead bodies and that kind of stuff He's nervous smile shows up and it's out of baseline. You think well, that's pretty creepy until he outright laughs And a lot of people will do a nervous laugh To push away to distance away from things. They don't realize they're doing it It's just all out nervous laughter and he has no idea how creepy that is because he continues to dig a hole He says Well, you know, I might have slept in the house with a dead body but not in the room with a dead body Well, I don't think the whole contention that you were sleeping with the body How do you think you do with the fact he's dead in your house? I think there's more more connotation here than we're hearing And then here again is one of those what we feed we become this guy has fought for so long It's normal to do the kind of goofy stuff. He's done the horrific stuff He's done that it's become normal and Every day for him I think he shows disappointment that we can go back and look at the rest It's disdain or something in his lower face when he screws up the date That disappoints him. We're back to a control Personality and that disappoints him and we can go back and look at the rest of those And then the only time I see a request for approval is when he's saying the contention is I slept in the house with this guy or in the bed with this guy Okay, I may have slept in the house, but I didn't do the other And then he says that the dead are not the dangerous ones the living are And we certainly know that by talking to him. I'll leave it at that and say scott. What do you got? Back to the big head illustrations and he sounds like a child when he's talking about the Accusations of sleeping with dead bodies. That's I mean The smiles the laughter in the eye contact While he's discussing this are what nightmare movie characters are made out of This is this you see this one on those horrible movies where where you see just And what they do is juxtapose that normal Behavior against just creep factor 10 and that's what we're seeing here Then to jump from one sentence like you were saying Greg to where he's using human stuff for the first time we actually see it to to uh To an explanation. This is the first time we actually see Concern on an expression of concern where his focus is that And uh, the these behaviors just don't go together not not at all except in a horror movie That's all I tell you to see him chase. What do you got? I honestly believe that his denial about sleeping with him is truthful But none of the other stuff is In in in many cases an interrogator might make a false claim that's unrelated to the crime to get a baseline of truthful denial behavior So I may be talking to somebody's charged with $10,000 of theft and I may talk about human trafficking On to that to get what a truthful denial it should look like out of that person While he was working at this mortuary several staff members reported that he did have an what they call the unusual fascination with the bodies No one uh suggests that it was of a sexual nature but I think Gacy is a quintessential example of dr. Pinkas's formula theory where He has all these things these there's three things that make a perfect psychopath or that make a quintessential psychopath And this is abuse mental illness and brain injury and that according to dr. Pinkas It's p i n k us. I'll put a link in the description right below us here They make a serial killer And his bizarre behavior was never really explained but after his execution on request by Dr. Morrison His brain was examined. They found no trace of abnormalities whatsoever. So he does have psychological and physical abuse mental illness an early childhood brain injury And as a bonus to add on to that he had something called klinefelter syndrome And klinefelter syndrome is also called 47 x x y which is there's an x x y when it should be an x y on the 47 chromosome long story you can look it up if you want But even after testing this having this syndrome makes you more prone to more serious crimes And this is even after adjusting for socioeconomic variables like education father figures cohabitation all that kind of stuff That makes people more likely for sexual abuse arson murder etc And the klinefelter syndrome is something that that was confirmed. He did have so he had the perfect storm of all three of Those things plus a genetic predisposition to violence and psychopathy Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I would say he knows that he's going into the most Antisocial behavior when he starts telling the story about the the mortuary And I think I detect that from his laughter because he protests too much He's laughing so far out of his usual baseline here that that From my point of view, I would say he's utterly trying to distract from what we know Look most people have come across killing other people murder It's it's but interfering with dead bodies That's quite an extreme Also, the the human body when dead has almost zero power And so what a great way to exert Power over something with no power now. He also has a confounded and frustrating logic around this He says nothing to do with the bodies But before that he said picking up the bodies and stuff for them Well, if picking if it's if it's about nothing to do with the bodies and that is not a Picking up the bodies is a so you can't have both at the same time. It's just logically Impossible. He's confounded in the logic. He's frustrated by that. I worked only as the night As the the night man. I worked as the night man only So that would suggest that If there's interference with bodies, that's got to be done by a day person clearly, you know If I if I was only there at night was only there at night So I kind of interfered with them. Well, no, you're more likely to have had less people around to see you I grant you chase that that maybe others didn't see him Having any kind of sexual relationship with with with bodies because they weren't there at night when he was the only person there And just like Savile We get we get a whole bunch of Possibility there of of how can you have the most power? Over another human being well interfering with them when they're dead It's a huge power play and therefore it's antisocial because we know that you know For human being has lived the life. They're at the least power when they're dead And so they need protecting around that because people would take advantage of that And so we have all kinds of social lessons around how you deal with dead people What you do with dead people and what you don't do with dead people. He's breaking the rules That's antisocial personality disorder. Absolutely confounding those rules. Yeah, that's all I got on that one He's an odd guy. I'll give him that He's very odd. I was 19 when I ran away and that was in in 80 not 80 60 61 I went to los vegas for three months took off took my car and left. Yeah, I worked for palm mortuary Being the night man picking up bodies at the hospitals and stuff for them. I worked as a night man only I did they have nothing to do with the bodies all this talk that I slept with the dead ones or Had sex with dead bodies that there is no truth to any of that He didn't live in the mortuary. I lived in the mortuary. Yes, but not in the embalming room I mean they make it sound like you know, I slept in the crypts with them And I never climbed into a coffin or anything like that that that is so damn ridiculous It you know, it's the same thing the contention is that I slept all night with robert peace If you want to say I slept in the same house with a dead body. Okay fine. I'll buy that but in the same room No And besides The dead won't bother you It's the living you got to worry about I I have a lot of things that I've forgotten that I can't remember For instance, I can go back to my childhood and stuff and I still remember that but yet you can I can go into the 70s And there are a lot of things I can't remember the same thing with the victims I've looked at all of I don't know if you notice here We've got pictures of every one of the victims here and believe it or not for the last 12 years I've studied these photos of the victims and There is no We have a shot of all of the victims together here And When you look over the photos, I have no recollection of any of never met them And we've gone over this more than once. They're just names and faces And when you when you look at them Uh The thing of it is we took it a step further. We went into their backgrounds I wanted to know where they were at what schools they attended who they hung out with And what kind of activities they were into and that's what we dug up on each one of the victims But still there is no association None of them never worked for me none of them They never went to any places that I ever hung around because I didn't hang around that many places unless you're involved in politics Or are you if you were involved in clowning then I might have ran into you But there's no way I could have run into any of them All right, greg what do you got? I'm not going to cover a whole lot. I'm just going to tell you this is among the creepiest things I've ever seen This is a trophy case for this guy. That's the reason he is Hands all over he's golem and this is the precious. That's all this is This guy's got his hands all over this when he's flipping to show you his trophies Look at his face. Just pay attention to this guy change in his cadence. Look, I don't know any of these I'm going to tell you why I don't know them and then he flips to them Well, come on. These are murdered children. Most of them somewhere adults I think but murdered children He's flipping to it with glee. There's no look. This is a sad thing. There's none of that This is a trophy for him And then he's got this brow up as he says unless you're in politics or clowning. I wouldn't know them That's request for approval These are victims And he never says one time I did not kill any of these people. He said I know them their faces and names That's one of the sickest things I've seen in this entire thing chase what you got He starts with his memory loss statement and rolls right into the photos Just citing that he has no memory of meeting them. So he says I have memory loss Let me just put that out there and then talk about some more memory loss I think it's interesting that he marks the page and continues to flip while he talks the page is marked by his ring finger So it's like the page is marked with a finger And then he's looking through the book and finally decides to flip to that. It's marked the whole time. He hasn't marked I don't know why that is if you do Let me know in the in the comments. I'm going to read them In court Gacy's defense argued for this serious mental impairment after these APD diagnoses were received from all these psychologists and the court didn't really buy the story about impulse behavior Citing and I quote if gacy had 33 irresistible impulses Just how was it that he dug the graves in advance? Which which they which they prove And going back just to give you one more interesting fact about this and mark you were talking about this earlier In his vehicle, they found a radio and a police a magnetic police siren And figured out that he regularly posed as a police officer Which would almost just knowing how human beings respond to perceived authority He would almost have carte blanche to get anybody He wanted to get a into handcuffs or b to get into the car and take him where he wanted to take him That's all you got Scott All right, I agree with you guys and greg you're right this Search for victim information is a form of trophy exhibition That that that's all it is sometimes a serial killer will take As what they call a trophy when they take a finger they'll take hair They'll take photos or a piece of clothes, you know clothing something like that And that's their trophy and it triggers the memory of the horror they brought on this person or whatever they get from it the Excitement from it. And so that's why I'll take those things And the rest is just an excuse He used the excuse for saying I didn't know these people. I can prove it. I looked at him I don't know who any of these people are how I never came in contact with any of them Goes to your thing chase if he or yeah, if he was pulling people or mark who said the siren thing was that you mark Okay, if he was doing that Yeah, of course, he'd never see he'd have no reason to be to be connected with him before and I mean that that's crazy so That's the only thing he would bring that up. I think In the first place is for to show he had nothing to do with him, but I think it's trophy exhibition. That's that's all it is Mark where you got Yeah, believe it or not. He says and yeah, this is something from ripples believe it or not This is madden to the swords quality kind of horror. We've got here One thing that I find quite strange is we've been over this more than once we've been it I'm still don't understand who the we is. I can't work out whether he's socializing this Whether he does have some partner involved or people involved in making this this book that he's that he's got there Or there's some other Persona there alongside him. I'm not sure Um, they're just names and faces when you look at them They're just names and faces when you look at them. So back to that bureaucratic piece We took it a step further. He says and because I wanted to know so he's kind of saying I've investigated me better than anybody else and found me innocent Uh of of most all of these apart from the ones that I'm not innocent of it still confounds me As to why he wants to distance himself from some but not all of these Crimes I can't work out What is plan is around that? It seems to me from what I've heard there can be no sentence reduction. There can be no appeal You know other than it is a it is a classic of antisocial Personality disorder that that they can downplay and upplay things in bizarre manners and and twist and turn Those number one to to be manipulative and two because that's the way they see the world That day because they're not conforming to our usual sociological norms So it could be it could be that Um, yeah, that's all I got on this one. He's uh, he's about as strange as we've ever Had I I have a lot of things that I've forgotten that I can't remember For instance, I can go back to my childhood and stuff and I still remember that but yet you can I can go into the 70s And there are a lot of things I can't remember the same thing with the victims I've looked at all of I don't know if you notice here We got pictures of every one of the victims here and believe it or not for the last 12 years I've studied these photos of these victims and There is no uh We have a shot of all of the victims together here And uh, when you look over to the photos, I have no recollection of any of never met them And we've gone over this more than once they're just names and faces And when you when you look at them, uh The thing of it is we took it a step further we went into their backgrounds I wanted to know where they were at what schools they attended who they hung out with And what kind of activities they were into and that's what we dug up on each one of the victims But still there is no association None of them never worked for me none of them They never went to any places that I ever hung around because I didn't hang around that many places unless you're involved in politics Or are you if you're involved in clowning then I might have ran any But there's no way I could have run into any of them. All right. Well, let's throw around the room and Very quickly 30 seconds or less tell what we think about this case Or this guy and uh, we'll wrap it up mark. What do you got? Yeah, I I would say There's a lot of calm around stuff But then just go to that moment where he just starts laughing Around the interference with uh with in the mortuary That's quite a big differential I only point that out because those are the kind of big Differentials that we're often looking for to go. Well, what's that about? Why be so calm here around dead people? And then why be laughing at these dead people over here? What's going on there? So great differential there chase Yeah, I agree. I think this this whole thing was just a It's an example of a perfect storm Of everything coming together that could possibly manufacture a psychopath all happening As it as it possibly could and he becomes a horror movie level psychopath in fact, they do make movies about him and That's that's really what we're seeing here and I think This he had a dissociative capacity that was present So anybody most people that are have any kind of abuse and childhood become good at dissociating and removing themselves from events And I think him just having that little bit of capacity Made him use that as a defense in trial, but it was absolutely in my opinion Not the case. There was no dissociation. There was some alter ego. He named jack I think that was responsible for some of these crimes, which is not the case But he used his capacity for dissociation as a defense. Great Yeah, mark to your point when you say you wonder why he's doing this I think because he needs to be admired for something and even if that is something horrific He needs to be admired. That's the reason he's willing to say I've done these but not these I didn't sleep with dead people. I'm not a homosexual the things that he's drawn a line in his mind matter He separates himself from and if you want evidence, he needs admiration Met Rosalind Carter was tied up in politics was tightly tied to the polish festival drove that This I think the clown thing was more about admiration than the other piece So when I see that and I see the control pieces. Yeah, whatever made him a psychopath Thank god, they're not many of them like him because we know 33 people died as a result of him And he's gone out of lethal injection But what a horrific story and you can see how calmly he talked about it Just like I said with a cooking oil story. That's what he's doing and he rolled around in Something so he would look and smell like normal people and be able to pick up his victims He says and some of it is verifiably not true. He didn't know any of these people There's one of the guys who was working room who came up missing which is what started all this thing So, you know, he casual he's comfortable lying and arbitrarily altering the truth to fit him Just so he can be admired scott. What do you got? Yeah, I think this is a great example in my opinion of The psychopath the differences in a psychopath being born and one being creative how be creative How he's been creative and I think it's it's a the whole thing You're right. It makes great movies. It makes a fantastic movie and it's it's all set up It's got the clown stuff the things that scare us as a kid Even though it's supposed to make as happy as a kid as adult clown scares to death So I think it's a great example of The juxtaposing the the created one by the one that's born that way Uh, in my opinion So, all right fellas, I think this is a good one and we'll see you next time