 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. We had planned to invite Burlington Councilmember Joe McGee back onto our show as we got closer to town meeting day, so we could highlight Joe's re-election campaign. And then Joe did the unexpected. He announced that he's not seeking re-election. So we've invited him to come back on sooner versus later so we can talk about his tenure on the Burlington City Council, what he sees as being the challenges going forward, and what went into that decision not to seek re-election because he said it wasn't an easy decision to make. So Joe, welcome back and thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you so much for having me and part of me is sad that I'm not here talking about my re-election campaign. I've enjoyed my time on the City Council, most of my time on the City Council. I'm proud of a lot of the work that I've been able to do and there are a lot of things that I feel like I'm leaving unfinished. But you know, at a certain point I had to ask myself the question if this is really where my energy is put to best use and where I can make the most difference. And so, you know, I'm a renter in Burlington's Old North End. I represent downtown and part of the Old North End. The district has changed with our redistricting efforts over the last year. So that new ward will go into effect on Town Meeting Day and it's a ward that looks a lot different than the one that I first got elected to represent in 2021. And so that was a consideration for me as well. You know, a lot of the long-term connections that I made with constituents in that first campaign now are in Ward 2. And so that it's the ward that Ward 3 is currently a much harder ward to campaign in. And well, I think I'd be up for that challenge. It's definitely hard to start in your scratch on a campaign like that. So I was going to say, so let's piece out some of the things that you've already touched on because some of them are the issues that I really have an interest in hearing. As part of your announcement, you had made the comment about the affordability or the in affordability of the rent where you live. Is that are the rents higher in that area in Burlington or is it just Burlington in general has such incredibly high rents that is prohibitive for people to live there? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Burlington is struggling like a lot of communities with not just housing affordability but availability. So there are plenty of folks who are looking for housing that just simply can't find like they have they have the money to afford housing. They just can't find a place to live. And so that is a challenge for me. You know, the apartment I have now is I'm comfortable in it. I know I can afford it, you know, but if that were to change, I don't know that I would be able to find another place within the boundaries of the ward to be able to continue to represent it. And I think, you know, the the entire state is struggling with a housing stock that is unable to meet the needs of people who live here. And we're seeing that in the number of unsheltered folks who are on the streets of Burlington right now. And it's a statewide issue. So that is certainly an area where I feel like we could be doing more work. I mean, I absolutely agree. Just looking at Central Vermont and particularly the impact that the flood had had on housing availability and the increase in our homeless population. So looking at the time that you have been on the Burlington Council, what are those things that you're really proud that you were able to help the city of Burlington to achieve? Well, it's it's hard because, you know, you get elected and you make sometimes make promises and then you get in there and find out that you don't actually have as much power as you thought to make any change on any number of issues. And so, you know, I think many of the things that I'm most proud of really come from a place of the council using our voice to advocate for changes that need to happen at the state level and just changes in the way of thinking in terms of, you know, advocating for harm reduction and overdose prevention centers, different ways of looking at some of the very real crises that we're facing in Burlington, having the council unanimously say that we don't endorse the war on drugs and we're working to prioritize health approaches to substance use disorder in the opioid crisis. And also last March, passing a resolution condemning transphobia in Burlington, as we've seen a committed group of transphobic individuals stickering around the downtown and the north end and the council passed that resolution unanimously. I think that was an important step for us to take. And at the same time, you know, the actions that were behind that resolution did not come to fruition in the way that they should have. And so, I think we'll talk more about things that I feel are left undone and I'm happy to expand on that. I was going to say exactly where I was looking at going after making a comment of what you seem to be saying was the council acted in a socially responsible as well as an oversight of infrastructure and the sort of mechanisms of government. And as a former select board member in a small community in Vermont, I appreciate the challenges that you were facing. So I also know that you spent a great time working on issues of police reform. Yeah. And I know that some of that project is still under development. So what are those issues that you wish that you had had time to complete and that you see as being priorities for the Burlington City Council going forward? Yeah, I think police oversight is probably the biggest question that we still have yet to answer. And there's a joint committee right now in the council working on a charter change, a different charter change to put on the ballot in March that will hopefully give the police commission more power to be a more effective oversight body for the police department. I am hopeful that that will yield something that is stronger than what we currently have and that it's something that voters will approve in March. Another area I think is really around training and that that question can't be answered by Burlington alone. And Vermont has a single police academy where officers go to get training. And I think there are many unanswered questions and really what does a 21st century police force look like? What are the skills and the tools that we want to lead with when we're training next generations of law enforcement? And what do we, in addition to that, what are the different response models that we need? Because we know the police cannot respond to every crisis that we face from a health or safety perspective. And to that end, the Burlington Fire Department recently started a community response team, which is a bit more informal. They're mostly on the ground in the downtown responding to calls where someone's unresponsive and might be suspected of having experience in overdose. And so, you know, we're in a time with regard to public safety and public health where we need innovative solutions to come forward. It's clear how we've been doing things is not working. It has not worked. And I think, you know, we're on the cusp of making some really important changes that I'm hopeful I will see before my time when the council is over. Now, as part of the press conference where you announced that you would not be or the statement that was released when you announced you would not be seeking reelection, there was a comment about divisiveness on the council and also moving aside so that trust could be rebuilt between the council and the citizens of Burlington. Could you share a little more with us about what you see as being? How how severe is this problem? And what is it? What is it really going to take for some healing to happen? Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what I've seen. Speaking specifically about serving on the council and being in that space. There is a bitter partisanship that often gets in the way of us finding collaborative solutions to some of the issues that we face. You know, I don't know that anybody would say it publicly, but I will say it. There's definitely moments where there's concern about who's going to get credit for any particular thing. You know, we have local elections every year in Burlington, whether it's for May or every three years, or rotating city council elections every other year. It it's hard because, you know, it's a we live in a small town. We like to think we're a big city, but we are not very big. Forty two thousand people is not not a big city. And so when some of the some of the antics of big city, political machines find their way into our local government in Burlington, it's it's a struggle because, you know, more practically volunteers. We get five thousand dollars a year to do that job. And everyone's working full time on top of that. And so I think there's a real opportunity to have. To be a little bit more forgiving and forgive each other, humanity and show some grace in in those more heated political fights. And, you know, at the same time, I think there's a divisiveness in our dialogue as a society right now. You know, there's a lot of pain at many, many different levels. There are different layers to it. And I've just noticed that, particularly for me over the last few months, the backlash that I'm receiving on social media for advocating for some of the things that I advocate for. I think on some level, there's a lack of understanding about what the city council does and does not have power to do. And. I just are real frustration, you know, that it is frustrating, it is uncomfortable, it is disconcerting to see the way society is failing so many people in how many unsheltered folks there are on our streets, how many folks are using in public because they have no private safe place to use and. Just our systems of care and support are stretched to the absolute maximum and clearly do not have the resources to be able to provide what what people need right now. And it is. It's frustrating for me being an advocate for over those prevention centers and harm reduction and health focused approaches to substance use disorder to realize that I really at the end of the day only have a voice on these things and don't have a lot of power to wave my magic wand and make it happen. And so that. It's it's hard when the backlash comes on social media and then there's no there's no space to have a respectful dialogue about those issues. I was going to ask you, you know, if you had experienced a backlash or how you were treated by social media, so thank you for addressing it. So with our remaining time here, all of the things you say are the things that I would want to support in somebody serving in government in some capacity or advocacy in some capacity. What is it that you envisioned going forward? Or is this just I need to take a rest and I will see what presents itself and then make a decision because, you know, I'm sure there are people who are ready to start helping your campaign. I had suggested governor, but I would accept what. Whatever you think you might like to run for. Yeah, I appreciate that very much. Yeah. This has been challenging. It'll be two and a half years by the time I'm done in April. I. Have I. I don't enjoy it is not the right. I have been humbled by this experience. It's always a learning experience and there's a sense of. And it's really not something you can describe. It's like I helped to create something that's going to make our city a better place for people to live. And we used to be able to say I can take pride in that, but that's become sort of, you know, a taboo word. But it's I helped to create something that makes this better for the people coming after me. Right. And I, you know, it takes a while to learn the ins and outs and how and when to pull a certain lever and not to pull a certain lever when it comes to governing and negotiating on certain policies. I feel like I am just now learning that and I will continue to learn it. And. I think. It's hard in the moment to really zoom out and say, all right, with this vote that I'm taking tonight, what does it look like for Burlington, not tomorrow, but five or 10 or 15 years down the road and making decisions that way doesn't necessarily lend itself well to reelection slogans the following year or the year after. But, you know, there is a hope and I'm pretty confident that when everything shakes out in a few years, that hopefully I I don't want to say that I'll be proven right, but that the things that I've advocated for and will continue to advocate for will ultimately lead to a better community. And I guess I am I'm disappointed to be stepping down and not be able to see that through and continue to be that voice. But I think, you know, going forward, I am certainly looking forward to a little bit of a break and I am hoping to be more of an advocate on harm reduction for over those prevention centers and be able to focus on one or two issues rather than having to learn pretty quickly about dozens, which is the challenge of being on a municipal body, which you understand. Oh, exactly. It's I I need to understand the social concerns at the same time that I need to understand what it takes to maintain a road. Yeah. And and they're entirely different sets of knowledge and different people that you would seek out for for advice. So it sounds as though I might expect to be seeing you around the state house advocating for safe injection sites and a more comprehensive approach that. Joe McGee isn't necessarily going to disappear from the landscape. That is correct. I'm looking forward to some time behind the scenes. Well, it's more in front than what you're going to realize. Better. So thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for the work that you have done and that you try to do on the Burlington City Council safe journey ahead. Thank you. Thank you, Keith. Thanks very much. And I'm sure I'll see you around the state house. You've got it. People who routinely watch all things LGBTQ will have hopefully remembered a reference several months ago to a new theater company, production company here in Vermont. The premise of we should get to tell our own stories and we should get to write our own stories. So for this interview, the people behind that are our guests. So please welcome Rye and Nicole. Hi. Hi. Hello. And and we've been talking beforehand. So we're all pretty excited already. So so sit back and relax. So from having read some of the news, the public media accounts. You have a strong connection to Vermont, a strong connection with each other. Could you talk a little bit about that? And then we'll start talking about why between the willows. What was the vision? Absolutely. Yeah. Do you want to talk about it, Nicole? Do you want me to talk about it? Um, I can start. Sure. Yeah, do it. Well, I've grown up in Vermont. I was, you know, born and raised here, been here my whole life. I'm currently away in Pennsylvania for college, but I'm about the age where I'm like, I want to go back. I miss it. I realized I left a good thing behind. And me and Rye, actually, funny thing, we were in preschool together because we grew up in the same district. And Rye doesn't remember this at all, but not really. And I went to a middle school at a different school. So we didn't really know each other at all and until high school when we reconnected. Yeah, um, yeah, similar to Nicole. I grew up in Essex. I didn't move out until 20, 21, I believe. No, 20, 22, probably. And then, um, now I live in, well, then I lived in Winooski and now I live in Burlington. So I've never left Vermont. But, uh, so my, I mean, the connection is strong between the two of us. We have a mutual, you know, 40 plus years of living in Vermont. And so, uh, I think, you know, it's palpable, the love and appreciation we have for the state. So, yeah, we met in high school doing theater. That was, I was going to say, that was going to be my next sort of segue is I understand that both of you were involved in theater presentations at Essex High School. So what was it that each of, what was the roles that each of you took on and putting on a production at your high school? Oh, so I'll go first for this one. So Ali, who was the director for our tenure at high school actually was also my middle school director. She directed at Essex Middle School for about three years. And then when I went to high school and people in my grade went into high school, she then took the job over at Essex High School. So actually, I've worked, I worked with her for seven years continuously through high school, but I didn't start acting until freshman year. And so when I got to high school, I started auditioning and I was terrible and didn't know how to do any of it. And I'd never sung before. So like I spoke saying my freshman year audition for you're in town. And thankfully still got in the show. I don't know how, but probably the assigned male at birth nature of and the lack thereof in high school theater. And so I just got hooked and I fell in love with creating art and I knew it was my passion. And so I just was auditioning for every show and any show I didn't get in I would do tech for. And so I did all, I was on board to do all 12 shows at Essex High School, but the pandemic unfortunately, but that's my long and the short of it. I was gonna say an actor who also has experience with the tech aspect is a bit of a novelty and it's good knowledge to have. So Nicole, while Rai was auditioning and being terrible at it. Awful. And I think I came to the production of You're in Town, but we won't go there yet. You will get there. So Nicole, what were you doing that you were doing well during the same time? Probably dance. I didn't catch on the theater train until junior year of high school or technically the end of sophomore year, but I did some very, very bad middle school shows that will stay buried. But I've been a dancer for about 15 years, 16 years now. And I was mostly performing with Vermont youth dancers in high school, as well as Alon's Academy of Classical Ballet and both their Nutcracker and Spring Showcase. So I was like really heavy into the dance side of things. And around my sophomore year, I did tech for once on this island, it was the children's play for that year, which Rai was in and the lead of. Yeah. But that's kind of how I got my in and then they took me on as the dance captain for the fall production of Big Fish. And from there, I wasn't supposed to be in the show, but they said, do you wanna do a solo? So I kind of got like chucked into the show and then within a couple of scenes and became a part of the ensemble by accident. And then I did my first play that I ever did was our junior year of Frankenstein. And then that's when I got hooked. That's when I said, oh my God, I love this. I've always been a play person. I then did the senior musical, but it was the plays that really stuck with me. That's what I love to do. So before we segue into, so you graduate from high school, where did the idea of this production theater company come from? Nicole, what are you majoring in at that college in Pennsylvania? Nutrition and dietetics. Okay, not what I was expecting, but okay. If I wish I could be a dance major, but first of all, this college does not have a dance major. They only have a dance minor and it conflicts with the schedule, but I am on the dance team. I'm a lieutenant on the dance team this semester and I choreographed with them. So I'm plenty busy with dance over here. All right, so you graduate from high school. And I take it that you stayed in touch? Yeah, absolutely. So how did the idea for between the willows come into being and what were you hoping it was gonna provide that community theater was missing? Well, so the seeds were definitely planted while we were still in high school because Nicole and I and a few other great friends of ours were collaborating to do every year at the end of the year, Essex has a student directed musical. So like students get the opportunity, generally seniors, but sometimes juniors and depending on who signs up. But Nicole, I was gonna be directing, Nicole was gonna be choreographing and we had some other friends doing some of the other aspects. And so Nicole and I were sort of designing a very abstract version of Beauty and the Beast. It was gonna be so good. Yeah, we were really prepared to do that. And we try to, we like spicing things up. And so we just try to like basically take it and then tear it apart and then put it back together. And it was gonna be super weird and awesome and awful. But then unfortunately we graduated in 2020, which of course is the wonderful year of the pandemic. So that never came to fruition. I had tickets for that. Yeah, that was us. That was us. And yeah, I mean, the cast was amazing and the students were wonderful. And it was really, we had just got like maybe three rehearsals into the process. Cause it tends to overlap with the one act. So it's kind of hard to schedule cause we were, Nicole and I were both in the one act while also directing the show. So it was kind of navigating that. But yeah, it was a bummer. It was a really bummer. But there are bigger, far bigger problems in the world happening at that point. Okay, so what made you decide to found between the Willows? I, well, we had a free period together during our senior year. And we would just sit in the music hallway and talk or sleep or like play music or cry, whatever the day required. And we kind of started talking like, what if we did shows after high school? What if we just like, I don't know, did something else after this? Because everything was very up in the air. We were both like kind of trying to go to college. I'm just going to step in really quickly here because with my venereal age, I can't resist it. You're our Judy Garland and Mickey Bruni with let's put on a show, let's put on a show. And I mean, you know, like Nicole was saying, we just kind of, we're always like spitballing things and really putting things forth. And we were like, what if we did this show and like we made it all like weird and we gender swapped everything. And I mean, we would have done it for Beauty and the Beast. We were really thinking about it for Beauty and the Beast. We were like, what if we cast this person in this role and it was super weird and funky and it played with all these dynamics that no one ever thought of before. And we didn't do it. Okay, so this is a significant undertaking. Did you have other people who were willing to buy into this to be part of the process or was it essentially the two of you standing in the backyard with a sheet behind you and somebody holding a flashlight? Well, I'd say at the start, it was kind of an idea just between the two of us and we didn't really think it was gonna take off. At least I didn't, I don't know about you, Ray. I had faith, but for the sake of this, for the narrative. For the narrative. We didn't know what was gonna happen. This was also like summer 2020. So it felt like nothing was gonna take off. And I feel like around the year, the school year of 2021 is when we were like, we should do something. I miss theater, I miss performing. I miss the community we had in high school. The pandemic really put a wrench in all of that for both of us. Let's do something. It was like, let's put on a cabaret in your lawn, like anything, please, anything. And so we started throwing around ideas. Let's do this play. Let's do, I have this idea, just the most random things we could think of. And I said, oh wait, I have an idea for a show. It's been sitting in the back of my mind for a year. And Ray was like, why didn't you say anything earlier? And so May of 2022 is when we decided to put on our first production, which was entitled, The Four Seasons. And it was a 30 minute dance show all based off of all these four seasons. And that is when we got more people involved. So that was kind of the kicker. And it was like, we need help. So we called on some friends from high school and that's what got the ball rolling essentially. And I think that kind of sparked some interesting aspects as well for that because while we were doing the show, Nicole being the dancer that she is, it was in the style of sort of a two week intensive, except it was like a one week intensive, where we all got together at the beginning of the week. We just worked for like a lot of hours. And then we presented it that weekend. It was really hot, really beautiful. It was like the weather was hot at least. And then we had like a donation basket where people could donate if they wanted. It was free otherwise, but it was at my parents' house and on a lawn. So it was like, we're not gonna overcharge or anything, but it kind of, I think that was part of setting the seed for us wanting to be able to pay people in the future as well. I think it's the fact that... Now go ahead. Oh, well, just like, yes, the prospect of, with the donations we had acquired enough that we were able, a very small amount, but we were able to pay people which for any artist, any amount is usually infinitely more than you get. So I think that kind of really sparked something for both of us and inspired us with how we are handling the company. As part of the public media discussion about Between the Willows, they make reference to my friend Jay Schuster at Physicians Computer Company, may have offered some support to you. How did that happen? So for a long time, I've been involved with PCC. Just in the nature of like, they're incredibly generous to the greater Vermont theater community. And I've been very, very lucky to have my friend Owen Levy has worked at PCC for a great number of years. And if you're connected with PCC, then you, I'm sure know Owen because Owen is just like the most like beautiful, like soul person just does everything and loves everyone and does everything. It's just an incredible human. But it got me in and chatting with some of the folks up there. And so, you know, as I was getting connected with lots of different people in the community, I reached out and we had built kind of a mutual foundation I don't know, oh, me and John, me and John had chatted a lot because I, yes, sorry, brain re-navigating. John was great in conversation and I reached out to him when Nicole and I had finished writing the show. And I was like, hey, I know you are super generous and super wonderful and I want to let you know about this project that we're working on. And we're really hoping to kind of get it off the ground. And it would be great to have some of your support if you feel generous and if you feel like you're able to, it'd be great. And we were like, these are all the things we can do for you. And John being the wonderful person that he is was like, more than happy to do it. Also, don't worry about the other stuff. Like we just want to support you. And we could not have done it without John and PCC as a whole. I was gonna say, in general, they have been incredibly supportive of the queer community. Some of the people who have been, were involved in your production, who were interviewed, talked about finally marginalized and under-representing communities, having their own voice in their own vehicle versus someone else writing about us and then asking us to portray it. What was it your vision for between the willows that those of us who traditionally get overlooked will be the ones creating the vehicle and then we will be the ones performing it as well? Absolutely. That is really at the heart of kind of what we're doing here. I mean, a lot of, at least for the foreseeable future, a majority of the works that Nicole and I are going to be producing and staging are, A, original works. So they are at least produced by queer artists. And B, obviously anyone is welcome to participate in these productions. It's not, we're not trying to ostracize anyone of depending on sexuality or anything. It's just we are telling queer stories through a queer lens in a way that doesn't put them as this caricature of what they could be perceived to be. So, you're not getting like the gay best friend who's just like all over the place and Beast of Crete, which is our premier production, it is, which is lovely by the way. But in Beast of Crete, there's a sapphic relationship that's queer just because it's queer. It's not queer because of anything other than they just happen to love each other and fall in love. It's a bit more complex than that, but it's just like that we can see love in a way that is authentic and present and is not meant for some weird like agenda point of view. It's just to tell queer love and to show queer joy and how it's affected by some of the standards and outlines that are found in our society. That sounds good to me. And with our remaining time, Nicole, I'm gonna throw this to you, please. What is the vision for between the willows going forward? What might we look forward to seeing being produced next? And how can I track what it is you're doing and when productions are happening? So I am very excited about this upcoming season because it's going to be my turn this summer. The way we're kind of operating is a summer was rise productions of this summer will be my production and our summers are going to be our main production. We are hopefully fingers crossed gonna get something for the winter or spring this year going as well. That's really like our big goal is to get two productions kind of off the ground, whether it's something smaller on a cabaret format that the fundraiser or maybe a smaller casted play. We're hoping to get something. But for the summer, I don't know how much I can reveal but I can say that I'm planning a horror ballet which I'm very excited about. And it's based off of a grim fairy tale. I'm not gonna say which one yet that'll be announced around December. So watch for that. And I'm going to be using music from all queer artists, all queer composers who might not have gotten to have their story shared before because, this happened, they wrote this music hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And we've never been able to say that this was a queer artist until now. Okay, so, but do you have a Facebook page or website? Sorry, yeah. How can I track you? We have all of those. But I feel like we primarily use our Instagram. That's kind of our number one, what? Our number one spot that we're using. We're also on TikTok and we do have a website. Yeah. So please give me those sites and we'll make sure they get displayed during this interview. And with that, thank you so much for spending this time with us. Thank you for what you're trying to create here in Vermont. And Nicole, thank you for saying you want to come home. Yes, thank you so much for having us. It's been such a pleasure. Alrighty. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, resist.