 Welcome to Breeder Syndicate 2.0, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene. Researching everything from cannabis strain history, old smuggling tales from the first person perspective, to breeding science and news on current subculture. I'm your host, Matthew, and I'll occasionally be joined by my homey, not so dog, Breeder and Grower from Mendicino, to speak on these subjects and sometimes interview other participants. Our goal is to document this history before it's written by corporations and others who just weren't there. Let's start writing some wrongs. Welcome to the Underground. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Breeder Syndicate. I'm Matthew here with my co-host, Thousandfold, and today we're going to unlock and unfold some of the nomenclature with some examples and hypotheticals on different strains to try to give people a better idea past just the term F1 and F2 and all of that and just brief ideas of what it means. Yeah, because last week we did a fairly textbook overview of various concepts in breeding theory and science. And so this week we're definitely getting more concrete. We're definitely getting into some of the actual real-life examples of breeding and different real-life scenarios. And yeah, I think one way we can begin is we did talk briefly about, for example, last week how we don't... It's rare to find a true F1 hybrid in cannabis, for example. And we talked about how that Mendelian model of true F1 hybrid and then F2 gen with genotypic segregation doesn't happen really in cannabis. So I think Matt wanted to address some of that and we can start with the F1. Matt? Yeah. What are examples of F1s in our world and how do you actually make them? So I'll start really with what they should be and how they would be made in terms of actual agricultural breeding versus cannabis. So the definition of an F1, we went over that last week, it's crossing two distinctly different genotypes together, essentially. Crossing two stabilized genotypes together is the idea. But yeah, two distinctly different specifically. That's very, very key because in cannabis it's used differently. So in this idea you would want to take a Thai land race, something very, very long flowering Thai, for example, or Burmese or any of that kind of stuff. And cross it to something traditionally more Afghani that's interbred or in this example, let's say any Afghani will do, any Afghani will do from like a land race region. So that would be a real F1 hybrid. And by crossing those two inbred lines, that's where you would get hybrid vigor. And that's why when people talk about hybrid vigor in cannabis, and it doesn't really necessarily apply because cannabis is naturally vigorous anyways. And most of the things that we see in cannabis are polyhybrids. So what we see in cannabis when we see F1 typically, and even I use this this way because it's it's how it's commonly understood in trying to make it anything different even by calling it a polyhybrid F1. It would totally confuse everyone. And it does when you do it. As people understand it is that it is just two different strains crossed to each other in cannabis. Simply put, two different unrelated strains. And in some cases even related. Yeah, yeah. And technically, that is correct to still call those F1s. We're just distinguishing that from the true F1 hybrid type F1, right? Correct. I mean, it's a commonly accepted. I don't know if it's correct. I don't know if it's even correct to call it correct. But it's accepted. I think it is. Yeah, I think it is. I think I did look that up to be like. For polyhybrids. Polyhybrid. These are called an F1 for like, yeah, heterozygous or polyhybrid crosses. I think they're still technically F1s. But okay. We'll just say that we're not entirely sure. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just because F1s have to be two distinct genotypes. I don't know how they just scrubbed that for heterozygous. It's a major part of the information. I think that F1 still designates the filial generation regardless. As distinct from, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So then it is, if that's the case, then it's being used correcting cannabis. If that's the case. And yeah. So in this example, most people would say like, oh gee kush crossed to purple, purple, whatever, if they're seed lines, you know, male, female seed lines, you would call that an F1 in cannabis. A great example of a real F1 in cannabis as I see it would be something that CSI is currently working on, which is his land race Burmese that was from preservation dude and crossing that to the Christmas tree, but IVL line, which is it is to the point of where if you, if you pop seedlings from it and you run clones of those seedlings of each different seedling at the clonal level, they all look pretty uniform. You know, it's different when they're seedlings and seedlings, as most people know, seedlings, like as they grow up and mature and you take clones of them, they change. Like the clone is not usually the same exact plant that the seedling is. It's very rare. And in clonal form, they all seem to line up pretty well looking like clones of each other. It is a, I think IVL by definition for cannabis. So that would be a good example of a true F1 hybrid in cannabis. Yeah. Yeah. And just to clarify, I think what we're trying to point out is that when F1 is, when the term F1 is used, they are actually two possible interpretations or meanings. One of that is the true F1 hybrid in the Mendelian sense that Matt's trying to get at. And then there is F1 in designating the filial generation and nothing beyond that. So in cannabis, most of the time it is the latter. But there are exceptions like the one Matt just gave. Yes. There's always exceptions to every rule on that. In cannabis, it always finds a way to have an exception. Yeah. Okay. How about an F2? So F2 essentially is taking the progeny, the resulting seeds or progeny of that F1 hybrid, popping those seeds, selecting a male and a female or essentially a male and a female to keep it simple. A male and a female and crossing them together resulting in the F2 generation, the second filial generation. And as it goes on to F3, F4, F5, it's just that same process. The next generation selecting male and female for the next generation. And hopefully you're selecting for traits. If you're working them generations, that usually helps take it a direction. Yeah. Are there good examples of F2s or like F2s being used for particular reasons? Okay. So an example of an F2 would be like with the blue bonnet. I got so few seeds of the F1 to pop that I wanted to immediately do F2s of it. And that was to open it up and see what's actually in the blue bonnet. Yeah. That's the perfect example of why you would take something to an F2. And I didn't necessarily want to open up the whole thing per se. Like by doing an open pollination because I already knew the direction I wanted to go and they were already showing those traits. So hopefully that helps make sense of that. Yeah. And an F2s like we've mentioned before, that's where you're likely to see a greater proportion of recessives and greater kind of variation in the permutations of genes. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Cool. All right. I think the next one we want to move on to was the S1. S1. And I think there are many, many, many examples of this. Yeah. So that would be specifically self. And a lot of people get this confused. They think all feminized seeds are S1s. Whereas all S1s are feminized. It's true. Yes. Whereas vice the versa is not. So an S1 means self. You take a, essentially take a clone of a single plant. You take two clones. You reverse one using any number of methods to cause it to show male flowers. You pollinate another clone of itself and harvest the resulting seeds. That would be a self generation. Good examples of a self generation would be like the Chem91 S1s from CSI, the heirloom Afghani S1s that I did. And essentially, you do get to see the recessives despite it being self. So a lot of people like to compare S1 generation to the F2 generation because you're seeing the recessives. However, you're still narrowing stuff down while seeing the recessives in an S2. Whereas in an F2, that's not necessarily what's happening all the time. You made an S1, right? Nice, too. Yeah. Yeah. God, that's going to suck. It's going to get these over. Yeah. Well, I was going to say as well, while you are also likely to find recessives in your S1s, you also have a chance of finding things very much like the plant you're reversing. You have a chance to find things very similar. A lot of people understand it to mean that you're going to find exact copies of, and that's definitely not the case. But you'll find things very similar and some may look identical. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's an exact genetic car. I mean, it's worth saying this, right? Any seeds that you make, regardless of how you make them, you will never, ever get genetically identical progeny. Yeah. And it's like this with humans. When I impregnate myself, the resulting babies don't look like me. I've tried this. It doesn't work very well. I struggle to imagine what they would look like. Beautiful, though. They're beautiful. Right. This one. Okay. Yeah. All right. And also, you know, worth mentioning, we have obviously addressed reversals, and not just reversals, we've addressed selfing quite a bit. So if you want to hear more about it, definitely reference the last two episodes. We talk about selfing in both of them. And the next set of examples, the S-2s. S-2s. Trying to think, you know, actually, as I gave an example for S-1, for the Chem91 S-1s, more than likely those are actually S-2s. Yes. I want to point that out, too. So I think while it is a great example of like, of release of an S-1, I probably should have referenced something like Jesus. Not even, I was thinking Jesus S-1s, but that's probably an S-2, too. So it's like, there's a lot of things out there from clones that we buy as S-1s that might be S-2s, but because history hasn't quite proven that out to be fleshed out, like for sure, they're labeled as what we know them to be, which would be the first true self-generation that we can prove. Right. So that's, in that case, they would be referred to as S-1s. But in theory, some of that stuff is S-2s. And as a good example, probably Chem91, because it's so uniform as an S-1, is a good example of why it is probably an S-2. But you don't see a lot of real S-2s being released or sold. So that's why I'm kind of stretching it a bit to try to find something that really fits in right there. I think there's a cool general point in there, though, which is that if you don't know what you're starting with, what your starting material actually is, what generation it actually is, the best you get in cannabis's land is a relative kind of designation. So in not knowing what the Chem91 actually is, all we can say when you self-is that it is an S-1, quote-unquote. But in actuality, it may be an S-2, but because we don't know. And in reference to that, the Blue Bonnet itself was supposed to be a blueberry pure line work. And if you go by who had it, you know, D.J. Short, I think, to Tony from Sega Matha, to Vic High, to Lone Star, to me, that's a lot of generations that were worked in there. I mean, D.J. released it at F4. And supposedly, you know, I mean, there's many generations in there. So it's really hard to say on that, like what generation it really was. Yeah. Yeah. And coming back to this, too, has our old mate, Caleb, done S-2 work? I know he's talked about it before. Yeah, he has, but it's not often released. So it's kind of hard to reference it. There's been several things he's done and taken to S-3 where the population of seeds seems to just be unviable, like they don't pop at S-3. I don't think that's always the case, but it has happened. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, very cool. All right. Next one is the F1R. F1R? Yeah, what is that? That's a designation that we use in cannabis specifically. It's only to denote reversal so that when us as breeders, like this is not science talk now. This is like for sure our own nomenclature that we instituted, right? So when breeders are looking at stuff, we know if we're referencing, if I'm looking at someone's writing, I know if they're referencing a male in their line or if they're referencing a reversal in their line by that designation. So it's something that we started doing so that we know in each other's work what we're referring to if we're going to work with each other's work. And hopefully more people will institute it over time because it's very helpful and it's important. And it gets more and more important as more people come in. I mean, just as important as trying to illustrate that you put the male second, you know, you never put the male first. It always comes after the female. But even that isn't like strictly adhered to that I see in cannabis. I mean, we're trying to institute some things to make it more easier to read or legible, scientifically legible for all of us. Well, yeah, I mean, when you have a consistent set of terms, that makes it actually possible to communicate effectively with other people. Yeah, exactly. And not having that, I mean, that's how we got here, right? The messy state that we're in right now. And while, well, what I'm saying is true is technically not part of, say, the Mendelian science. It's still very important to designate in the discourse of practitioners in the community of practitioners. So, yeah. Yeah, cannabis is so different than a lot of other plants. And because it's been kept out of the science room for so long due to its illegal classification. A lot of us were the ones trying to write this stuff and understand it from a point of view of people who are not collegiate, you know. But just trying to do the best we can with what we had. And it's interesting is that runs headlong into science and trying to adopt that in seeing if they even give a shit on anything we've done, which is not very likely. Yeah. And it's not an uncommon thing, you know, in other fields of practice, there are especially ones that are not science based. It's still very necessary to come up with your own taxonomy instead of terms for the reasons I mentioned earlier. And a good example of an F1R would be when we had the sourdough and we reversed the diesel to diesel and sourdough are not directly related. And yeah, that's it made for amazing progeny. And we find that that happens a lot. O.G. Rascal made his career making a lot of like reverse hybrids, reverse feminized hybrids like that. Some of the best earliest reverse feminized hybrids were his. So yeah. Modern times you have cannerado doing great stuff with that as well. Yeah. And I would say that F1Rs are very common, right? Yeah, very, very common market now. Yeah, especially now. Okay. Next one, the BX or BC backcross. Okay, backcross. So we did touch on this last week. Yes. Yeah. And it's essentially just taking, trying to think of how to word this best. How do I word it last week? I can do this one because I think I can still remember it pretty well. Yeah. So the goal of a backcross is you are trying to bring in one stable trait into an already stable parent. That parent is called the recurrent parent. It's the one that you are backcrossing to. And you have the introgressive parent, which is the one that you're trying to take that one trait from. That was really good. That was really good. I'm impressed. Yeah. So an example of a backcross one would be something like, let's see what would be good BX1. As an example, I don't want to keep using blue bonnets. So I'm going to switch it up and go to like our strawberry cream. Strawberry cream was a line developed by CVF, worked several generations and was pretty close to breeding true, especially with the clone we had, even when we outcrossed it, strawberry was very dominant. And that was the trait we wanted to lock in. We knew that we happened to have been growing Santa Cruz blue dream right next to it. And notice that they were very similar. The Santa Cruz blue dream was a female. And at this point, I wanted to have a regular seed line of strawberry cream. And CVF had gone, taken a hiatus and I didn't have any regular seeds of it. So we took a male Johnny Blaze, which was a blueberry Neville's haze, which is similar to the blueberry super silver haze that was used for Santa Cruz blue dream. And we out crossed that and then brought it back to the strawberry or that cross. We brought back to the strawberry cream clone. And it produced consistent strawberry turds. So that would be an example of an effective back cross one. Nice. Yeah. Okay. And the final one that we wanted to touch on for this warm up was an in cross. I bring between two different filial generations, right? Yeah. So it's, it's not dissimilar to a back cross in many ways. A back cross is an example of an in cross. However, usually an in cross is referred to in cannabis specifically. And again, this is one of those, the nomenclature from cannabis is referring to like taking an F4 and crossing it back to the F2 generation, a selection from the F4 generation. Let's say you have traits you like that are showing up in an F4 male, but you had an F2 female that you really liked. That in that case you would use the F4 male and F2. And that would be considered an in cross. An example of this, we had DJ shorts blueberry seed line. And we had a selection from it that was very blueberry, but very modern DJ shorts blueberry, which to me means like the butt hole turds, like the nasty turds with slight berry, but very beautiful to look at purple short squat indica. And we crossed that to the blue bonnet, which is in my opinion a hybrid of blueberry, but very, very dominant for the blueberry turds. And so in doing this, my goal was to make one that looked like DJ's modern line. They had the smell of everything everybody wants from blueberry and a much stronger high. And in order to do that, I did a, what we call an in cross, because that's the best way we could define it as, since it was given to me as a pure blueberry line, even though my suspicions are that the bonnet is not, because it was given to me as that I have to consider an in cross. So I don't want to just like save it. I know something that someone else is saying is incorrect, but I don't have proof. I think that's a really good example. Could I press you to generalize and tell us like, what are the overall benefits of using this method? The overall benefits are if you're not seeing certain traits pop up in the F2, let's say you run a population of the F2 generation, and you don't see anything in the mail from that generation that you necessarily like, but you've already like, you've already taken things generations out. Like in high and low, some example, or in his case, he has his Appalachia and he worked at I think F5, F6, and then didn't like necessarily what you've seen. So he went back, popped more F2s. And at this point, if he doesn't find anything in, you know, in that F2 realm that he liked, he could have popped some of the F6, looked for a mail in there showing the traits that he liked and used that and hope that it bred like he liked. Wow, that's super interesting. I don't think I've actually thought about this that much, this particular strategy. Very cool. Yeah. I think that brings us to the end of this little intro section. Was it a warm up? Yes. Was there anything else you wanted to add on any of these maps? No, I think that's it. I think that was a, I just wanted to give a quick jaunt with some like examples, hypotheticals, maybe I don't know. I think it was really good. All right. And I think in the next section, we're going to take it one step further in terms of examples and scenarios. Okay. And we've got a bunch of questions from the discord. That's right. We are going to begin with Scroost and Skiacro. So he's got a, he's got a keeper triangle choke individual. And in his words, it brought the best traits from each of the parents, heavy amount of high quality resin, and a nice high from the TK, great blueberry flavor from the bonnet, so bringing great flower structure and also augmenting the smell and flavor. So he doesn't want to use this keeper and crosses yet as he's scared to lose that particular combination of traits. And what he's thinking about is going through more packs to find another similar individual to the keeper that he's got and maybe doing a sibling cross or maybe an F2R. Now, what do we think about his proposed approach if his goal is to produce more homogenous stock that represents his keeper? So there's a few steps to this that I would ask him first. And it would be, are you sure that this is the ultimate expression from that line that you want to see? Like, is it as extreme blueberry? Is it as potent? Is it as resinous as you want? I've seen examples of this and it's an amazing example. So in this case, knowing what his example is, I'd say go ahead, pop more seeds and look. And if you don't see something immediately in there that you think can be cloned and grown more and might compete or be better, I would not do any of those and I would probably not cross it and I would probably self-fit. I mean, if you wanted to have a uniform homogenous line of that specific expression, taking it through the generations through regular seeds would be a little bit trickier because you're going to have to pick a male that lines up with a lot of those traits or you're just going to be constantly, constantly taking a step back, taking two steps back, one step forward, two steps back, one step forward. It's very easy to have that happen, especially with a line that is a polyhybrid like that. So I really recommend self-fit for that example and it'll take it more homogenous quicker in the direction he wants and you won't have to pop as many to really keep narrowing it down. Yeah. Yeah. So I was also wondering if he did make S1s. And okay, let's say that he did pop out a few more from these other packs that he's got and he did find another similar individual. Is there anything else he can do with that to help this kind of homogenization or is that just not ultimately going to be helpful? Like could he self-boast and then cross the S1s? Like, you know, what does that do? So the only way that I would recommend, the only reason I would recommend that is if you found another one that, say, had such like drastic potency but was equal in smell and resin production to the one that he was keeping but it was drastically more potent or maybe it was slightly less smelly than the other one but along the same lines and maybe slightly less resinous but along the same lines a bit close. In that case, I could understand crossing the two to try to absorb one of the traits and not wear out the other two. But even that still just, I mean... You're still risking just opening it up again, right? Yeah, so I mean I would still probably just S1 the best of the two, you know or the best of the five or however many of the keepers are very similar or what have you. Cool, yeah. Okay, and he's got a follow-up and this one is a bit broader. He's asking... I think he's asking you in particular because obviously you know the parents and he's wondering like, do you have a sense of what would outcross well to his triangle choke individual? I think so, okay, he does say something. He says, yeah, having experienced the parents and having actually sampled it. Are there types that might play well with it, i.e. other plants that may not dominate but would still complement it well? Yeah, so this is like a lot of the reason I was doing some of the blueberry or the blue bonnet like hybrid cross work like where I was taking the blue bonnet skittles that we had made and crossing it to the blue mac one that we made, crossing the punchy bluster to the silver pearl blue bonnet, the cream that we made to try to see how those two crossed together. And every single time it seems to be moving forward that the blueberry turps very heavily except for in the silver pearl one, the silver pearl tended to dominate mostly but the berry is still loose for it, like people still find them in there. It's just not as dominant as the silver. With that said, like I really think like the first thing that comes to my mind if you don't have any males that you like that immediately show all the traits like I said, that's really hard to select for and to know if you don't know the line real well. Things like the white bonnet complement that real well because it'll keep the resin production, the potency and the males from that I've already found males that are dominant for the blueberry scented expression and flavor so I know that it can dominate the white. Things like that immediately come to mind but again that's bringing in more genetics that's bringing in more outside genetics but if you're insisting on having a regular seed line I would either use the triangle choke male and really hope for it there or if you're trying to drive in the blueberry turps which I know he really wants to do I'd use something like another bonnet hybrid of the same line like I said or something like the white bonnet. I don't think I knew you had a white bonnet, just saying. Yeah I didn't really sell much, I just passed him out. Gotcha, yep. Okay I think that is more or less Kirsten's question. Is there anything else you would recommend or want to add to his kind of set of parameters or? No I mean is there any other kind of like weird parts you could go down for fun or like? I mean you can always try the male selection like I said it's I recommend everybody do it because that's a way to learn the line, try it. But other than that like it's selfing because I know his goal and what he wants to do it's hard to recommend him to do anything else or because I know exactly what he wants to get done with it and it's a great cut like of all the stuff people have sent me in like that's one of the ones that made me sleep like hardcore put me out. It's pretty good, it's pretty good. Very nice. Okay so I think we can move on to our next question and this one's from Kyle Terrell. He has a pack of banana tie us once and maybe before we go any further would you like to tell us what the banana tie is? Okay so the banana tie was a juicy fruit tie that came from a local place and when I picked it up it was a local club and I just thought there was no way. I thought there was no way that these people wouldn't want to know what a tie was well what juicy fruit tie was but it did look very quote-unquote sativa typically sativa so I took it home and it was definitely a tie dominant plant that had been worked probably my best guess would be sincey seeds type juicy fruit tie and it smelled like juicy fruit gum. It could be taken anywhere between 11 to 14 weeks depending on where people take it like where they like it but it was explosively speedy hide it is not not play around happy tie weed like I assumed it would be it is very potent and the banana tie was that crossed our platinum banana OGBX1 there. Very cool. Okay so continuing on with Kyle's question. He's got two keepers of his banana tie us once. One keeper has a no ceiling high the juicy fruit smell and taste but poor structure. Yeah. The second keeper has better structure and yield tropical fruit and banana terps but a lower ceiling for the high and which he doesn't like. Yeah. And so what he's hoping is to bring the structure and yield from the second one into the first one and what he's thinking about so that's the goal right and what he's thinking about doing is reversing and then combining the two keepers in both ways and then maybe also selfing each of them to look through. That's yeah I mean that's great. That's actually a really good example I think of of how to do that how to how to lock in both traits and that lines a hard one that lines a really tough one because it uses incorporates banana og and I've talked about banana og a little bit in the past on the show but in banana og there are some beautifully banana smelling stuff there's some beautifully og cush smelling stuff there's combinations both and then there's like the 60% ratio clip of just bland oh skunk one just land land I mean it's it's got a decent high but it's just so bland that it's not really super appealing to anyone not super resin is super bland in the juicy fruit tie in the outcrosses there is a lot of that too there's low odor low term like just semi sweet plants in there but they're like that clone example just ripping and it has a beautiful smell so in that banana tie I knew there would be stuff that would be variant and I knew it have like what we talk about a high ceiling low floor as far as what to expect not necessarily high but what to expect from the project so I ended up giving away for the most part but then the demand got pretty big so we auctioned off a few after a few years of it being out but in the S ones we use really good examples of it so in the S ones it should be easy enough to do like sister crosses of the S ones and walk in some traits that way and it's a great idea yeah I guess it'll also be interesting to see how easy will be or not to reverse some of these as well absolutely yeah cuz you just never know you never know what's gonna drop pollen or not I should point out by the way that we did not manipulate people into using Matt's work for any of these questions that is just you know from this like we're all from the small community and so you know people are growing a lot of people growing Matt's work and that's why that's how it goes we're not doing some kind of like underhanded marketing although I think Matt will still take it yeah I'll take it I mean you know if you do a contest if people want to I feel like organizing contests online must be really difficult it's so hard man it's just like even doing like the small giveaway contests like on IG we found that like there was almost no way to do it without a second person immediately complaining that they want like we just never had it happen without that happening it was crazy immediately we're in kindergarten they're like ah I was first I was first I was on my screen first so it's hard like hurting cats I think even like even more complicated like the idea of like trying to run like a little like mini cup you know and like getting sample sent around and just think about all the different steps in the logistics and how much could go wrong at every step and like not being able to guarantee like much really but I remember one of the Adam Dunn cups one of my friends mailed in his example and it got it got stuck at the post office and we didn't know why we did not have a clue why we just knew that we had to go there and pick it up at the post office and he had to present his idea and I remember looking at him like are you really going to do this like as we pulled out the post office like is it really worth it like we don't know why they're keeping it it turned out they were keeping it because it was like short a dollar like I'm postage with like one of the things we're like do you think you're going to give your fucking lead back bro so yeah there's all kinds of things that can go crazy with those competitions just that alone you know yeah I can only imagine I mean I would I wouldn't mind seeing someone try but I'm not going to I don't think I'm going to get involved yeah it was wild well okay so we've got another question from scientist and this one my apologies I don't know I hope I've interpreted his question correctly and there are quite a few moving parts to his one so I'll do my best so his story is he was given some seeds a few years ago I said a blueberry seeds from one of his friends and I believe he said it was from the 90s so he's essentially wanting to extend his buddies blueberry work and see what kinds of traits exist in this lineage that his friend has been working with and part of the way that he wants to learn about them is by crossing them to other other lines so in addition to his friends 90s blueberry seeds of unknown relatively unknown provenance he's got a bonnet f2 pack I think what he's saying he has two different pre-98 bubba cuts maybe and he's also got some pea berry yeah so what he's trying to do just to say again he wants to try them out in different combinations to learn more about his buddies blueberry that he but he was given that's his initial question okay um is that question I think like I think what he's trying to ask is like do these crosses make sense like so okay and what can you what could he possibly learn so um he listed a few different bubba clones right and that listed if he was growing bonnet f2s then I think he said pea berry which is the katsu bubba blue bonnet and I think he said the pre-98 bubba blue bonnet which is the blubba kush and you can learn about all of those I mean if he knows bubba really well those are excellent ways to figure out what's going on with his homies blueberry first if it's related to DJ's blueberry is a good question is it related to DJ's blue run it out run out a bunch of these blue bonnet f2s see if anything's lining up at all see if there's any traits lining up and if he knows bubba really well like finding those bubba blue bonnets are so stable expression wise that like to out cross to anything to bring in potency and blueberry terps I know um subrob from San Diego's finest cuts is it's one of his more favorite lines is the blubba kush or that reason for male selection and reading so yeah I know I think it's a good way to learn I mean like to learn about it and if he knows bubba those lines will tell him more you know yeah and just to clarify as well I imagine uh just to leave like no stone on turn so to speak I imagine what he is going to do is actually first run all those things out separately right like yeah he's not just gonna like immediately cross them all yeah and then try to figure out what's going on because that would be pretty crazy I imagine yeah yeah so that's not the way the way is to run each of these uh packs lines uh cuts out look at them all separately and then maybe after that you can try like crossing some of them and see what passes and like those lines are great if he knows bubba it's like it's really easy to figure out the bubba traits from the blue bonnet ones to me but I know bubba really really well so that's why you sorry you may have actually covered this but his follow-up was would the peaberry help or would it just confuse things and slow slow things down his goal is not to make seedful production but just to learn about that blueberry strain um so anything you want to say about the peaberry in particular the only difference between the peaberry and like the pre-98 bubba from Shaw is that the peaberry I think that that katsu bubba is a hybrid of bubba so it is different than bubba koush traditional it's beautiful it's purple um but it is slightly different so I think that's I mean if you know the katsu kai it's still very bubba-ish but it has different like the way the bud formations are is different typically than bubba koush but the terps are very similar it goes from that coffee chocolatey coffee to the soapy kushi depending on how you grow it I mean it's very similar I think both are really good um directions it's so dominant bubba is so dominant in katsu that you know a lot of people would argue whether it's a hybrid not but I'm pretty sure it is um I've got he actually I didn't see this but he actually had another point that's kind of a wrench to this plan in my opinion and maybe it was good that I skipped over it but now he's now I've noticed he said he's limited to six flowering plants per run well I mean you could do it it's just going to take a long time be patient so how how would you approach that just kind of do it in parts right like you know just yeah in parts and keep a lot of clones yeah I mean I can relate I can relate buddy yes it's not easy no it's not it takes time yeah okay so anything else you want to add to this whole enterprise of like do you think we've covered enough for a scientist question I just I just really like it because like one of the initial things that I was running with the bubba blue bonnets the white bonnets and a few others they're basically afghani dominant blue bonnet crosses that was where I wanted to initially take a lot of the lines because itself bonnet is very traditionally cushy afghani dominant so it's a good it's a good partner for it essentially so yeah I like his idea I think the other thing I like about this question is that in some ways he's actually not really that concerned about making seeds or breeding per se in this one scenario he's actually just talking about wanting to learn as much as possible yeah which we did talk about last week is being extremely important and like it's also extremely time consuming and resource intensive so it is admirable I think that someone is like yeah I'm not actually about seed making right away I actually just want to learn and that's quite rare there's there's one thing I'll add to this and it's just the the one thing from the past two shows that I've noticed in the comments that nobody like maybe they have maybe haven't communicated it well but the playing when I refer to playing which is crossing unknown to unknown or known to known and just seeing what happens while I say that's not breeding it is an it is an essential part yes learning to breed is you can't really breed if you don't know what you have like in my opinion and it is an essential step but it's not breeding proper because you're not doing having goals with selection you know it's like not goal there's not an end goal here for just seeing what happens and learning but learning is a part of it you have to do that it's a major step so I don't want to discount that part as part of a major part of it but it's not breeding proper if that's makes any sense yeah I think I can I can paraphrase that which is that the seeing what shit sticks vibe is an important part of breeding but breeding itself is not reducible to that yes exactly yeah exactly and I want to make that clear because it sounds like like I'd see people's comments saying no it's important I'm like I never said it wasn't it's totally important I spent most of my career doing that you know like that's that's you know I'm I can't shit on that yeah yeah I think I think when people hear someone putting conditions around something like some people can be quick to assume that that means that they just shouldn't do it but that's not that's often not the case often what all we're just saying always saying is we're pointing out the limits of something there is never just like something is outrightly good or outrightly bad or outrightly useful or outrightly not useful yeah each each thing each technique each strategy has its own trade-offs and limits yeah each strategy is good for looking at there we go get some not so stuff going if any of you guys out there get bored and hear this I want to make little mp3 clippies is the best not so isms all toss them up on the soundboard for sure oh that's a really good idea community please get on it help with that I just did some if I had like another couple of hours I might have tried to get some but yeah someone else please do it yeah there's a few I want to grab it we could also put his face on the screen while we're playing those oh yeah I could just make a not so mask and wear it that's terrifying yeah it is me for halloween I'll make him one for me and I'll play each other we should do it halloween yeah we should that would be funny make him do imitations of me he has brutal brutal imitations of me brutal really I was actually going to say I didn't think not so was like would be down with is like the you know that he could do impersonations necessarily I don't know why but that's cool to hear that yeah I'm not saying they're accurate but it's more the things that he thinks I would say yeah it's worth it all right all right let's get back to the questions shall we yeah okay we've got a pretty pretty good and open one from Kwazia he's actually got a couple but we'll start with this one so he these are hypotheticals I don't know if he I assume that he's thinking about this but he's not actually started on anything yeah he says so let's say he starts with a pack of fem seeds and he has a few possibilities here one is CSI's big bad wolf I think that is the chem D and 91 is that okay if I'm not mistaken there's a TKS ones or he says one of the recent LA Kush headband hybrids okay so starting with one of these what steps would you take to get a male with as many traits from the fem pack as possible and the follow up being would the starting fems change the process and if so how so they're all different from each other each step of that the chem D chem 91 would definitely be different from a TKS one selection since they are variant TKS ones is selection would definitely matter I mean some are creamy some are not like OG Kush at all some are very OG Kush type you know and what was the last one it was one of the recent LA Kush headband crosses from not so in CSI okay so mostly like diesel super skunk type hybrids we're in there most of them though some were like bubble gum and bubble kush or Mendo perps that were very different so it really does depend on what the starting material is before we can dive into the males but let's assume he's wanting to do diesel types actually no let's go chem just because he went with chem 91 chem D is the first one to do that and assume he wants to go for chem types what where would he go for a male for that so you know it just depends on the area you're from and the stuff you have access to like I would immediately for any kind of regular chem breeding hybrid I would immediately think of Matt elites work with the the chem 91 chem D I 95 specifically the heads and tails above any other regular chem work done by me done by anyone else that I've ever seen it was just so precise to chem 91 and I don't know how he did it it was just really lucky and good not just lucky but it was he knows chems really well and some of it was luck but it was good selection you know what I mean like it had legend OG in there had star dog had triangle had all that stuff in the I 95 and then you add in chem 91 and chem D which are two different plants but knowing that and knowing that it's very chem 91 dominant I would definitely advise Quasia to probably track something down similar to that it's tracking down chem stuff takes knowing really reliable sources of it and there's only a few people I trust on earth with chem stuff to know what it is to know that they don't have fake cuts I know that they never got fake cut any of that there's only a few people that I trust for that and I don't want to throw people under the bus so I'm not going to name all of them but I really like Matt elite stuff too nice nice and I think that that work of his is pretty pervasive now you still see it used quite a bit yeah we he never sold it ever he let people have it and if they were doing auctions for like charities or if there was homies doing auctions he would toss them in and he gave me a bunch to like sell and toss and toss in for freebies so they've made it out there but like not everybody picked him up so no I mean people use him but they're not as pervasive as they once were I mean I know dynasty uses it I use it and that's that I know of right now just for fun and for the sake of it would you then now move to like say he signed with the TKS ones and think about what mail would work for that so a lot of wedding cake stuff pops up in that TKS ones when I say wedding cake type stuff that means stuff that is like kind of creamy maya turps to me and just very resonance very productive very dense you can find that in let's see what's a good one Bodys love triangle is a good example you can like that triangle 88g13 hash plant a lot of people thought that the 88g13 hash plant was too dominant in it for a triangle kush type back cross would be a great one I think and keep the maybe hopefully help with the wedding I don't know if it'll help with the wedding cake turps but it might it might well you weren't joking when you said you could just do this off the top of your head it's for so long on Instagram every night for hours you're doing free consultations for people yes free always always free with the peas okay alright well how about now starting with the LA let's assume it's going to be a diesel type cross you know what the sort of wrench in that let's do let's not do a diesel type cross let's do well I know you know what let's do a diesel type cross because that's just going to be there because it wouldn't make sense I was going to say let's do like Mendo perhaps or like bubble gum maybe but I don't think that's going to necessarily dominate I think a lot of the bubble gum when it does it's just earthy and not bubble gum smelling so diesel let's do diesel so again diesel is a hard one because there's so few people I would trust to know diesel for regular diesel lines damn that's a hard one I don't know if I can think of them easily I'm trying to do stuff that's not blue bonnet related or blue bonnet adjacent and I'm trying to think of other people who make regular sea lines of diesel that I would highly recommend that I know for sure are using good diesels I know Chaco's let some of his sour crosses out those are great there's some it just really takes a lot of research and I don't want to throw anyone under the bus and then there's people I would recommend they just don't deserve it they've been tricks lately so okay how about this how about this man make it bit easier what if you didn't have to find another what if you couldn't let's just say you couldn't find a diesel male or diesel type kind of regular line what other line would you go to if you could so I would recommend super skunk so look for like a diesel regular seat hybrid and now there are those out there from other people besides myself and it's not too super rare to find just avoid anyone with 420 in their username because usually those people have fake diesel cats yeah yeah yeah so just to be clear because Matt's being a bit he Matt has a bunch of like regular diesel crosses so yeah other people do too but yeah there's definitely out there okay and it's an excellent super skunk type and sour is a super skunk and diesel is more like diesel than it is like a chem in my opinion yeah okay so within I guess within within this project like in terms of steps you know are there any particular kinds of steps you would recommend him taking or um you know since it's all regular reading I really recommend Matt crossing one time for the trait that he wants then working it forward pick a trait start with a trait you know pick a trait you can't have it all sometimes I mean I shouldn't say you can't have it all sometimes you get it all very rarely do you get it all but sometimes your expectations knowing the odds because I mean that did throw me a bit when he said he said with as many traits from the FEMPAC as possible like that's an interesting qualifier for me where I'm like huh that's interesting yeah I mean sometimes you get good reading work done in the pack that you receive like the blue bonnet was ready to go CSI does great work so sometimes you'll you know it'll be that easy lots of times it's pick a trait and stick with one because that's that's the best you could hope for but but yeah it happens yeah so I think there's a difference between something unlikely occurring and you planning your process relative to what is likely to happen and if you are planning your process likely to what is planning your process relative to what is likely then you should try to focus on like a single trait at each step because you're reducing the odds I mean sorry you're helping your odds I think my uncle was trying to make a point of that last week I had a really really skewed understanding of breeding how worked how traits work what a phenotype was all that coming up I didn't have anybody to teach me specifics on that I didn't really like I didn't go to college for this I didn't pay attention in high school to botany I just didn't care like value that shit right so I had to learn as it went and it just none of that stuff comes common sense and that's the one thing we've been trying to drive home is like Murphy's law plays out heavy sometimes you know expect the worst to happen and like I ran into a lot of Murphy's law on my way up that doesn't mean everybody does but I did so that's why I always like these qualifiers of like you know this is that I try to give the worst case scenario what to expect because sometimes that's just how it plays out I mean I felt like in some ways and I know I'm being uncharitable about our content but in some ways I saw last week's episode as just an extended fucking disclaimer you know in a way you don't think that's inaccurate yeah because some of this kind of thinking is not intuitive as you're saying like people becoming accustomed to how you deal with probabilistic outcomes that may not be intuitive using terms like low floor high ceiling those are terms that you use around probability and how you think about probability and when you are dealing with probability it's not enough to just say well it can happen it's like yes any of these outcomes are possible but it doesn't mean that they are probable so just because it happened for you once doesn't mean that it's repeatable and that it can be consistent you might just have been extremely extremely lucky like in the chat yesterday in discord and in the voice chat people were talking about their positive experiences with Paul and Chucking like in the open like hitting random not hitting random branches and you know you can do this it's nothing big you know I did it you know and it's like just because you were able to do it in the tent with your you know that one time doesn't mean that you should like make that a habit because it won't happen that way every time yeah I mean you know we're chatting a bit about gaming which I don't think we've ever done before before we started recording and it kind of comes to mind for me in the world of games as well where you might make a ridiculous move that works for you that one time yeah but if you do it a hundred times it might work like three or four times or you know something some kind of terrible success rate and there's a difference between something being reliable and repeatable and something that just worked for you just because it worked for you that one time exactly yeah that's actually a really good way of saying it and illustrating you know like sometimes I play games and it's like playing with like actual kids and they annoy the shit out of me and they do something stupid and I'm like you shouldn't have done that but they're like but it worked right and like yeah but you know and then give up and then they walk outside and get hit by a car and then they're telling me to go touch grass or whatever I'm like yeah I'm old I know oh my god how do you deal with this how do you deal with all my cuss I cuss so much I just have to be like you don't have a full brain I'm gonna just forget about what you just said yeah yeah okay okay so we can come back to Quasir's second question which is also quite interesting so his hypothetical scenario is finding a plant that has some really unique scents I think he specified like you know low concentration high impact scent compounds but essentially he's saying he's found if he finds something with a unique scent that he's I don't know if he's guessing as a recessive trait or if he's maybe discovered that it's recessive or has a premonition that it is but that that scent is otherwise getting lost in the overall like nose of the of the plant right and also it doesn't translate to flavor how would he go about breeding to make that rare scent component more prominent in the overall nose and translate better to flavor he says it's fine to bring in other specific flavors as long as the overall package is high flavor and that the original recessive scent component the one that he was talking about at the beginning comes through ultimately it seems like a I think nailing both of those things seems really hard maybe even just talking about how you try to get that one draw that one scent out is maybe enough for one part of this question so like for me the when he says like a high impact low whatever low concentration something like a volatile compound or something that's dissipates pretty fast I would assume this way did you say roadkill yeah yes no no never I think that's what he's referring to for example I'll go to on how I tried to do it a few different ways we had to what I think for super skunk adjacent lines in like diesel and then the air on Afghani which had a lot of typically more sativa expressions but it is mostly Afghani structure and that's what we were told it was and it played out that way but what most people like it was more narrowly from some expression so I think people would typically classify that as sativa I don't see it as that but I do think it has super skunk in it or something like that or it's a similar type of Afghani so I tried doing S ones of the Afghani and it had a very very high volatile self compound like you could just smell it like it was just wild wild strong in the outcross is what we saw or not out I'm sorry in the self line what we saw was a lot of variation we saw a lot of variation in expression being that it would go from when you smell it the combination of although smells kind of skunky but like individually it would be a combination of like ammonia piss you know burnt rubber tennis ball and then whatever that component is in diesel that is skunk whatever that component is that you would describe as that in super skunk and diesel and that kind of type or sour even it had that but in those three combinations together it just smells loud like loud like burn your eyes skunk but we saw like each of those individual expressions laid out we'd see stuff that was just piss we'd see stuff that was just burnt rubber we'd see stuff that was more like savory skunk but it was really hard to nail the trifecta of all three in a very potent form like the initial mom was super hard so I tried that way and at the same time at another location we were doing a diesel cross to a I'm sorry a sour dub cross to a reverse diesel and in doing this I was testing the super skunk the theory that like if we double up on the super skunk being that sour dub has super skunked in it by the sour dub diesel and then diesel has super skunked in it probably being a super skunked soft line accidental bag seed and what I found was that more consistently the skunk spray can seem to and that was the name of the line directed towards the sour dub diesel seem to go more towards keeping it consistently in that super skunk savory buttery skunk range and not veering away from it whereas the heirloom Afghani S1 would go the pissy range and more the burnt tennis ball range if that makes sense so that's how I did it in approaching that project in a similar method now moving terps into it is really hard initially like when I think of bringing in any kind of terps to things like extracts I immediately think of terpenaline because like that terpenaline to me is turned up the volume on most fruity flavors berry flavors stuff like that I don't know that terpenaline would necessarily be a great driver of skunky stuff but it definitely helped in the Fairfax four way so there's no reason that it couldn't help with this and actually translate it to even more flavor but terpenaline is known to dominate so heavy so you'd get a lot of stuff that was only terpenaline with no volatile compound and it would take a large pop or a lot of luck to find but that would be my first thought yeah very nice and I think from a theoretical point of view like you were saying it obviously depends a lot on whether or not in reality this is actually trying to combine a few different traits or if it you know from say like a Mendelian perspective it literally is a single trait that's recessive then technically again in from a theoretical point of view if it's a single trait that is recessive you need to find out the plant that also has that trait that is also recessive that's the only way you will see much of it yeah so that's just from the theory like I think Matt did a better explanation of actually practically how you would try to approach it and but by doing it and everything we've done and also Caleb with the big bad wolf and other of these chem and super skunk hybrids we're kind of figuring out yeah it seems like that that smell in the super skunk lines seems to be a double recessive it seems to be recessive and when you do the super skunk double up technically it seems like it is a double recessive and locking it in and that's why when you do it it consistently shows cool very nice I think that one will be very interesting to a lot of people okay so I actually had a last minute edition I don't think I got to go over this one with you Matt but I think it's I think it's pretty reasonable so it's from Dudnes he's got a male sour diesel unknown provenance so sour diesel quote unquote he describes it as being well-structured sturdy vigorous good gassy stem rub I'm assuming that he doesn't actually know he's not run progeny out from it before so just qualify that he's doing stem rubs doesn't specify so maybe we can make some assumptions I wouldn't assume no if you're doing stem rubs you don't even smell the flower yeah yeah you're probably right there are two female keepers of limelight that is key lime pie by MBBK sorry I'm not as familiar with this one he says that they don't have the greatest frame but they grow well they smell good pine skunk hint of lime and ultimately what he's trying to achieve he wants to put a studio frame on the limelight and maybe add a bit more gas to the back end maintaining or increasing potency he's made the first cross okay so I was mistaken he has made a cross and he's about to run through the first generation to dig through to see what's being passed the questions he's got if I find a male or female keeper in the F1 pop should I go to F2 as well or what would be the best course to try and lock in those traits that he wants in the cross so structure is one of the easiest things to breathe for true that's a good point because I mean hemp has great structure and that's like cannabis and it's real or it's state it's natural state hemp you know like so that's true yeah and when he says it's sour diesel with great structure I immediately think that's not sour diesel because that's not and I think he's kind of aware of that I think he's saying that like you know that's what he's calling it but you know it's yeah and that and that's difficult though that's not even a crack on it because that's that happens a lot it's a male how are you going to know so I guess maybe his male he wasn't able to get much more than stem rubs off of the smell which also can happen with males if he's run through the progeny and he sees what he likes I mean there's no reason to F2 it if you've already got everything you like with the structure in the progeny unless you think it's not quite good enough and it's not keeper enough for your taste like if you think there's something better in there then of course you can F2 it again so I think people have this want to do oh good good I was going to say that his extended question was basically like I thought you may have already answered it he's basically saying yeah how far down the generation should I go and should I consider back crossing as well kind of thing I mean like I said people have this want to work a line or think that they need to work a line but if you've already found what you like there's really nothing else to do but that's one unless you really want a regular seed line of it I think that's a huge point yeah you don't have to keep working it you don't have to you don't need to keep looking if you found like your ultimate keeper that you like it nails all the boxes you can always like I said explore look through the rest and be sure like and maybe there is something way better you didn't even know existed but ultimately when you find that one that is a keeper unless your goal is to have like just a bunch of regular seeds backed up for it then I just don't know any reason to do anything other than s1 or self it so a paraphrase of this is work forward if you are looking for more yes but if you have what you are looking for then it is less less reasonable to do that yeah it's just a why why yeah yeah yeah from a learning point of view maybe but otherwise yeah why it's like when I see BX6 or BX12 or F12 like if you're doing real selections on this stuff you should be able to lock it in or move like at least the trait that you want or multiple traits if be yeah people don't do it bro people say crazy as shit dude like people be making seeds for two years and say they're F12 and you're just looking at them like how dude I was watching I was watching a BBC documentary on the history of apples in Britain I'll say first of all it was the fucking most British thing I've ever seen like it was actually really cool and they were talking about what it actually took to develop some of their new varieties and it was they literally were taking like a decade oh yeah because sometimes they're doing they're waiting for sport mutations which is like a clonal mutation on a branch to pop up like that's just waiting on luck and nature to take its course and time like it that doesn't it's a random occurrence you know like my favorite apples are what do you call them cosmic crunch I think they're called and they're a cosmic crisp apples and they are a sport mutation off of the honey crisp apple and when I first got them I was like fuck I'll just get the seeds out what the hell and then I was like thinking about it I was like wait a minute I know that that's not quite how it works in apples it's not just so I looked it up and yeah absolutely if you pop those seeds you may get nothing from over close yeah it's a sport mutation so it's not going to occur at all like normally yeah they still rely very much on on clones as well grafting and the actually I'll say this I think it was it kind of blew my mind this is the one part that wasn't expecting at all they breed root stocks like oh yeah they will have separate kinds of root stocks and then grafts things onto them and I just didn't somehow I mean I knew this was a thing I know especially in citrus it's a thing but I was just kind of blown away by the idea that like they basically have like a cloned root stock that they will use so that brings the consistency I actually wonder what that would mean in cannabis because I know a lot we do it people do it oh yeah yeah like OGs have really really weak root structure who is doing this the other day I was talking to someone I was talking to is doing this the other day oh I know exactly who it was Farmer Dan but he's been working on it with some of their stock and yeah OGs have really weak root structures and they're known for it you can graft that onto something like a bubble that has like really fat root structure like any plant any a fucking hip cut you know what I mean after that you're fucking solid bro you can pound it out with some OG so yeah it reminded me of another like quite one of those like one of those weird like peripheral projects that you get to see on the forums where it was like basically like root stock with multiple grafts from multiple different individuals like onto the one mother kind of like weird hydra type plant they always have those emerald cut bro like the blue dream with OG on it and like fucking like nine other clones grafted onto it it's like bizarre novelty plants I guess like kind of cool I guess I wanted to buy an apple one yesterday they have a three in one apple plant or tree that they were selling at Home Depot that I think I like I assume it was grafted I don't know how are they also they doing three in one no it must be yeah apple trees but yeah like but it was funny because like I see some of them that would like look smaller than the others and not be as branchy and they would they would be advertised as three in one but there would only be two tags showing that like so one of the branches got knocked off that was a whole other graft but they still wanted the same price obviously I guess they're going back to the the kind of hydra hydra like multi multi branch multi individual graft thing I guess if you were like in a prohibition country like me or under prohibition conditions and like maybe it would be a very ambitious kind of mother project where you technically would be have one mother plant but it's actually many plants absolutely absolutely I mean that's that's that's a solution to a lot of people's problems I think you can't keep many mothers keep a monster mom hydra mom monster mom alright anyone in the discord can please do it I want to see it you know my friend racer X who used to be one of my he's still around but he was really integral in our company early on he would do amazing like graph branch like grafting like monster branches on like tree grafting branches and he would do like monster clones like six foot clones just to see if he could do it like crooning which is where you know you moisten part of the branch and like kind of a little bit so roots come out and they would like that's right and grow into the soil on its own like you have these yeah he had great pictures of doing all this stuff back in the day but I haven't seen it done in a while I mean I think I guess the broad I mean I know this was just like a fun tangent but I guess a broad a broad learning from this for me is like don't hesitate to look outside of cannabis for examples for information for inspiration because like I pointed out last week the information space in cannabis is basically like ruined and if you I mean apart from us of course we're perfect but but otherwise if you want to learn about breeding definitely like look at other crops like you know human civilization has had thousands of years of history of breeding so there's no reason why we can't learn from other types of agriculture absolutely and but one thing I've also learned is that like in scientific data specifically when they are trying to apply say hops or hemp to drug type cannabis they often do that and don't qualify that or people don't understand that it really is qualified as another type of this plant and I mean it can work backwards to where like you over qualify it with cannabis where it doesn't necessarily apply but you should always look outside of cannabis always there's so many outside of the box things that you can bring from other agriculture into cannabis that will apply but do remember not everything always applies yes yes this would be a speculative thing not like you can definitely just bring in whole cell and assume it's the same yeah definitely I was reading a paper the other day and this is something that I experienced myself in reversing like large populations of hemp but they found that hemp reversed relatively well compared to drug type cannabis consistently so even though they are the same plan because one has elevated THC drug levels for whatever reason it is much harder to reverse than like the CBD type plan fascinating yeah okay well coming back I think this is the this is actually a follow up to dude's question and it's probably the last question we'll get to for today in terms of breeding scenarios we have a couple of like miscellaneous breeding questions we'll also answer at the end okay so dudeness has follow up I'd like to try to reverse the sour diesel male to possibly get a nice female individual to pair with once selfed how many crosses of the progeny would be ideal to get a decent look into them well first of all like what is the benefit of reversing the sour diesel male like I don't know much about this so maybe you can speak to that so in reversing males you use a different chemical than you would for reversing females because we're not blocking ethylene we're trying to get it to you know have a lot of weight in it um when you reverse a male just like when you reverse a female you don't just get a perfect male version of a female you get a male parts on a female bud structure vice versa on a male you get female parts on a male bud structure and what you can make seeds with this not all seeds are viable done this way um and also you're not getting a full male line either you're getting a regular seed line when you do male reverses so there's two things to understand there I mean if you want to understand what's in your male it's definitely worth a shot definitely do it worth a shot to see what's in the genetics of this male you have you know if you think it's our reversing and try to make the seeds see if they're viable give them a pop and see what's in the line um yeah it's doable it doesn't mean that it's going to be remotely easy or it's always going to be viable but it's definitely doable yeah yeah and I think the rest of the question is quite similar to the previous one which is like if he does do this um how far should he take working the progeny and I guess it just comes back to what we said earlier well it depends on what you find when what's your goal yeah and what your goal is um which yeah he didn't specify so I think maybe then our response is mostly about the male reversal and what you know and you can use things like ethophon um florelle do male reverses yeah gotcha gotcha is there anything else interesting to say about male reverses um most people do it not to make most people do it not to make seeds they do it to see what the terpene profile like to make the male produce more essential oils or oils so it could so you can see what kind of traits maybe it might be passing you know like oh I can identify this is the male trait because I smell that in the male the resin glands on the male that we did on the reverse male I can smell that there and that wasn't in the female so I know that's coming from the male side or it's most likely coming from the male side um that helps in some scenarios um maybe okay I just I have my own question about this um let's say you had you know your blue bonnet male the you know now almost like mythical blue bonnet male yes could you have so technically you could have reversed that on like you could have self that yes and we'll get out of that like would that have been probably something similar to a if I know in the line it probably would have been something similar to what I'm seeing in the blue bonnet the x1 or the f2 is realistically because it's already so uniform so it's it it just really didn't really serve a purpose in that sense in that scenario cool nice okay that clarifies it for me okay um so I think those are the scenarios that we have for this week okay I don't I I'm not assuming I'm I'm assuming that we will have more episodes if people have more scenarios to suggest sure so if people still do um please keep sending them to me in the in the discord on the in the content suggestions channel for future episodes I think yeah man I haven't really decided like how long this breeding series is going to be so yeah just playing it by ear playing it by rear okay so I guess we've covered all the breeding scenario suggestions we've got Matt was there anything you want to add at this kind of like wrap up of this section no not yet I don't think so they were pretty cool it was I think what I can say is that I can tell you that the vibe for this this week's episode is so different from our very academic vibe last week and I'm already enjoying it not that I didn't enjoy last week it's just very different yeah it was just more um I think more brainpower involved in last weeks for sure for me it was just more heavy it definitely was for me as well yeah and it's nice to kind of have that now as something we can reference and like point two but I'm also glad we did it and that we yeah me too I'm glad we did it too baby it's not over yet Matt I wonder I wonder if MC Whiteout liked me whispering that into his face right here I love that my cover isn't that awesome okay so we can wrap up with a couple of quite interesting questions about like they are about breeding but they're also more about like the supporting infrastructure so McMuffin for example kind of wants to know like how different breeders stay organized I think he specifically had a mention of like notes whether there's like you've developed your own like shorthand for things I know that you might have some stories from yourself and from like maybe CSI what's organization like as like a commercial breeder so like me and CSI are the perfect like polar opposites on organization and I didn't really understand this I mean I've seen like you know people talk about taking notes and notations and stuff but I didn't really understand how organized someone could be when it came to breeding until like he started showing me like his paperwork on like when he would go through and do testing on different things you know like I'd watch it was just so detailed everything was so detailed and you know you know like has everything written down cataloged pictures catalog like and when it came to me I am the opposite like my organization my life is just chaos pure freaking chaos so I have never written anything down everything's been in my head and like I was kind of used to reasoning that like well if anything ever happens like I don't want to have anything out there to you know be incriminating or anything crazy but like in the end it really was just me being lazy because like I'm just not organized so I've tried doing it in my head which it worked for a long long long time until now I'm getting older and like I don't want to say I'm getting older like you know like other people but like I'm further in my career and it's getting harder to remember a lot it's really getting harder to remember certain details and I see why he does what he does and I'm trying to incorporate it more in my life now too and this last round of the punchy stuff it took better notes you know and it was because of what I had learned from him but yeah he's definitely a good mentor to have when it comes to how to take notes and notations and he does have somewhat of a short hand it's usually by tag number, by look, smell, taste by you know and it's detailed it's very detailed because you want to be able to reference all those fine nuances and anything that can be construed or bread with as a trait you want to write down and that's not always readily apparent early on the one thing that I did use to do when I was super interested in reading purples is that I took notes on all the bags and I would always write down the color of the cobblestones however you say it I don't know I'd always take notes on whether they were purple, green to start with to see if there was any correlation to that and flower and yeah that was the first notes I'd ever taken on anything just because I was interested but I think that terribly long too far in yeah I think yeah for me it's like someone who comes from like you know information technology and like and all that like I'd be I'd have spreadsheets have fucking database I'd be like I'd be going hide yeah man we can collaborate on something and now that you're going to know me do you see why like my personality is like I've never kept shit I'm so scrambled with that at the same time I feel like for you to have the kind of recall that you do you must have internally some kind of like yeah internal structure that your brain is using to yeah and I'm curious to know what how that might be. So like I've tried to stop doing it but like on the live feeds I would do a lot where I have to like when I think of something I'd close my eyes real quick and I go to my file system and my brain that I tried like visually doing and accessing it that way but yeah I got a lot of brain fog now so I don't it's not as easy to do that anymore it used to be very visual everything was very visual and quick and now I can't really do that anymore there's a lot that isn't there. Yeah so you're doing some kind of like a little bit of that like memory palace type type stuff you heard of that. Yeah yeah yeah I've never been able to do that I don't think but I think it's my form of that maybe yeah I think everyone has like some structure in their brain. I see screenshots screenshots but they're not even visual screenshots they're just I just think about it and it just places and it's fucking weird I don't know it's not even visual representations of anything it's just bullshit maybe I just close my eyes and pull it out my ass I'm not sure but somehow works hmm it's interesting maybe I'll go and like build some little thing for this for fun or be fun okay yeah I mean I can easily see like a very very simple like breeder's notes kind of tool which is not far beyond like a spreadsheet but you know maybe made it it's not far beyond what you've done with the codecs to be honest with you. It's not either no it's not yeah I could see like a a lot of that would cross over a lot. I did say this to you as well that the codecs even though currently it was intended for historical planets and projects there's no reason why you can't use it to design projects either or track your actual projects so definitely something for us to think about for the future definitely that's cool okay so kind of related it's still to me about like information and it's one that many people have asked like this one's from humblefc in particular but my friend bud Goodman was also asking me about this which is clarifying some of the terminology so I can just say this off the top of my head right you've got planes you've got strands you've got cultivars varieties you've got clones you've got individuals in general yeah you've got phenotype you've got lines and okay I will say this I'm actually not to me some of this stuff is still really blurry some of it is not for example I think I can immediately say that a phenotype does not designate an individual plot is a particular expression of a single trait that is what a phenotype is but yeah what about stuff like what is your understanding of like cultivar or variety or like so I've always understood like cultivar as a cultivated variety in that like the simple definition is a plant variety that has been produced in cultivation by selective breeding so a lot of this to me is very hard to call a cultivar by the most stringent standards of the word and like I'm not you know about a lot but some like vertig I'm super anal about so it's hard to call a lot of these things cultivars but some might be yep yep but most like most cultivars are done with like root and stem cuttings cell division like careful selective seed production and that's that's a very very specific qualifier for a cultivar specific selected carefully selected seed selection so some things I think would qualify and others wouldn't from cultivar. How about everyone's favorite strain right because I think we can immediately say for example cam dog 91 is not a strain is anything actually a strain like in cannabis like I know okay from a technical point of view I know that like strains are used for like viruses in a technical sense right but for in cannabis land people use it as just like a cat roll term for like anything that has a name almost whether that's like a like a cross or an actual individual keeper will still just freely say that's a strain or like that's a strain I think so there's a few different definitions of strains out there right like most people in there for strains are referring to like diseases viruses or like strains of endomycorrhiza or bacteria right but there is also a definition of a strain and it's and it's in connection with it like just I'm trying to think of the word a plant that has been modified through selective breeding or through breeding not say selective breeding through breeding so yeah it applies in cannabis it actually does apply and is correct while strain seems to apply to most things because it doesn't necessarily specify careful super controlled selective breeding it just does the selective breeding and that can be many different things that can mean many different things to many different people so I think it more applies overall than cultivar does specifically I'm sure people will be arguing till they're blue in the face on that but yeah that's my take on it I can say this from the point of view of like the English language at large and like it's used in different practices in fields just because one term is used in one field doesn't mean you can assume that that is the correct definition in every field there are many fields that use the same terms in very different ways so just because you've heard the term strain in like virology or I don't know I'm not I don't actually know what those things are called but you know just because you hear that term used in another technical context doesn't mean that that's the only meaning that it has so I think that goes back to what you're saying about strain in terms of like separating an individual plant from a line you know what would you say about that like what do you mean sometimes you know in a cross you'd see like this parent by that parent but like that's obviously an individual it doesn't represent the entire line right like that kind of thing so when I say expression I it could be I use it very loosely when I say expression because it could be like I like to use it a trade expression but I tend to use it for plants overall expression how it's expressing in that and by reason I say is because it's how it's overall expression is in that particular environment with that particular stringent set of variables so expression works well with me like that's a that's a term that does work but a lot of people say that phenotype that's the phenotype from that line and phenotype is referring to a specific trait expression not the overall plant the overall plant is not the phenotype you can say the genotype is xyz and that's relating to the genes behind the the physical expression but the genotype isn't something you're necessarily visually seen it's something that no underlined genes no by definition it's not what you are observing by definition yeah and I think the other term I've heard that I think I use with when you're talking about the plants it just to use the term individuals this is a that's great too that will vary V2 individual and that applies very well very very well and strand things like that you know obviously that's not what it's called that people do it anyways there's also like other things that here are providence instead of providence like there's a lot of terms that people have tried to move on in or use and adapt don't quite fit but yeah those are the two big ones strand and providence I think that when you get strand out from strain I think in linguistics is called like a it's a kind of slippage if I'm not mistaken but yeah you know I don't know I think one thing I'll say is that you have people on one end who think a fuck it doesn't it just doesn't matter like as long as generally people know what I mean it's okay and you have people on the other end who are like almost like unwilling to communicate with you unless you have like locked everything down and we're never going to get to that end either like it comes back to what you were saying Matt about like there's unfortunately unfortunately a bit of a blurry line between the established scientific terms and some of the terms that we consistently use as a community of practitioners and we unfortunately are going to have to deal with some of that ambiguity because language just isn't perfect and we definitely don't have perfect language for what we're doing yet hopefully one day we will get closer but I think so I just think that either end of that spectrum is not for me like it doesn't really make sense either way like you can't just say anything goes and you can't say like we have to have it perfect before we can talk there's obviously some kind of sweet spot between those two and that's where we are I think so sorry just as a language person I just want to say that yeah yeah okay um those are the two questions miscellaneous questions I thought I'd throw in there to wrap this episode up um maybe I did want to gesture towards some possible future episodes okay like I said we might just have another episode that's kind of similar to this if people have more um scenarios that are different enough from the ones we've covered today maybe we'll do another episode um there's a possible suggestion from Kwazia to do a separate episode on baselines oh yeah when we say baselines I think Matt has referred to that in the past it's like the big names like Hayes, Skunk, what else is in there Matt there's Durbin there's a lot there's a few overalls but like majority speaking Skunk one or Light Hayes are the big three so the kind of major precursors that um kind of like the upstream parents the upstream nodes to a lot of the cannabis that we see today the majority majority yeah yeah and that could be cool for an episode oh yeah the other exciting uh possibility is we may get high and lonesome back for another episode because he did tell me that he would be quite keen to speak on breeding for recessives and also to speak on his Appalachia projects which obviously you know is a is a big story and has you know many twists and turns so that would be very fun to do uh so there's plenty plenty for for people to forward to and the upcoming episodes absolutely and um let's see we also have the C2 custom glass I think tomorrow I get to see the breeder syndicate versions of their glass pieces for the first time so I'm super stoked man like I think that's one one thing like I've talked about it like you get leveled up every once in a while um in certain things and like glass is not my forks sake right and I didn't I don't I didn't really understand it being anything more than just a thing to get from point A to point B a tool right to get from point A to point B smoke to lungs but I didn't really understand that like there are certain techniques that can be used in glass for making things clear fast and like these are overall so much better than any piece that I've ever had like the fact that we get to have like breeder syndicate brand of ones blows my mind that's that's it so props to them I'm stoked to show them to everyone and make them available to everyone so yeah I'm stoked about that I do want to add one more thing while we're doing this kind of like outro like I've been watching our stats and I'm really really pleased to see that the engagement for the last few episodes has really gone up like we're getting the most comments that we've ever gotten really like yeah in our recent episodes you know not counting like very very old videos that have been around for years we're getting like as almost as many comments as those in the in the space of like a couple of weeks so yeah I'm really stoked about that keep commenting keep keep interacting you know like I like engaging with people in the comments because it's fun like it just it just takes the episode further learning further and I actually some of the comments like if you go through there like you'll catch like old talking in there that'll say who they are and you'll realize that's that person you know people chime in that are really cool yeah it's also the place where like if you're not in the discord because obviously people can use the discord to do this but it's also the place where if you disagree with anything that we've said or you have more questions like definitely bring them up there because like I said last week we're not going to always be perfect we're going to make mistakes we're going to miss out on some things so keep prompting us because I don't keep prompting us because we can always follow up like actually I mentioned that like for example it wasn't in the comments but not so actually popped up in the chat last week to kind of clarify that a plan can actually be true breeding just for a one trait and that that's not the same as a plant being true breeding for a whole bunch of significant traits and that's true that's true so you could have one trait that's your plant could be breeding you know homozygous dominant for one trait and that's technically a true breeding plant for that trait but you could also have a plant that's like you know homozygous dominant for a whole bunch of them and then you have something that's a true breeding plant one of those more like it more like a quote-unquote IBL right and that in that set of terms so yeah sorry random example of like you know good little follow-ups here and there yeah it is alright so with that I guess let me see don't forget to join the discord don't forget to click like subscribe share all that good stuff the things you're supposed to do to be supportive that shows you like I guess it does help it really does help it does so please do and or hit dislike if you fucking hate it that's that's cool too I think that is it anything else you got that's it for me thank you all right cheers thanks for us here at breeder syndicate we'll see you next week catch ya want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicatehere.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our 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