 Well, hello, and welcome to the open source summit technical resume writing workshop. That is a mouthful. And I am Lindsay Thorn, and this is Mary Kibrios. She's joining me as a special guest. I kind of strong armed her last minute, so no big deal. I am the managing director of the open source team at Vaco Seattle. A little bit about me. I have been recruiting now for 20 years. We won't talk about how old that makes me, but obviously I've been doing it for a while. And hopefully this will be really interactive. You guys can ask questions along the way and I'll be able to respond here live. I'm gonna respond verbally because typing the answers doesn't work really well during a presentation. But just to give you a little background, I've been with Vaco since 2012 and Vaco now has 45 offices, two in India, two in Canada and one in London, and the rest throughout the United States. We specialize in contract, permanent placement, retain search, manage services. Pretty much if you have a problem finding talent, we have a solution for you. And luckily, the Vaco has been very good about allowing me to keep our open source team, which I don't think very many people at our company really, truly understand, but they let me do it, so it's good. Open source is very important to me and I'm very happy to be here and able to give back to the community. And Mary is here. She was previously the recruiting manager for IngenX and before that, she was the recruiting manager here at Vaco with me. And currently she is the recruiting manager at a company called Transparent Systems here in Seattle. So hopefully between having somebody in staffing and somebody that actually works live for a company, you can hear that a lot of the positions and opinions are very similar, but you'll at least get some different opinions. And we can go from there. I guess I gotta get better at this clearly. This is really a struggle. Magic. So this is the resume workshop as I just discussed and we have a little information about me, but I pretty much told you all of this. And my email will be here multiple times throughout the presentation. You can always feel free to reach out to me and help ask any questions. I'm happy to help look at resumes all of the above. Mary, did you wanna talk at all about your experience? No, I think you pretty much covered it. I haven't yet. It'll be good to have both opinions on both sides, but she's kind of right, it's basically the same. So we'll move forward, maybe. All right, so we're gonna jump right into the resume template here. I'm gonna come back to this later in the presentation after we talk about some of the do's and don'ts. But what you're gonna see is I highly suggest your first and last name. City and state is fine unless you're looking to relocate then I suggest not putting it on your resume. And obviously a phone number and email. I think sometimes people forget this really obvious thing. So make sure you have both of those listed. The other thing that you're gonna wanna do is have your LinkedIn referenced on your resume. And if you have a GitHub, I highly suggest a GitHub URL. If you have decent code online, you absolutely should let a company see all of that. So make sure you reference your GitHub. But the trick is making sure there's something in the GitHub. The other thing is unless you're a PhD data scientist, I would tell you to print education at the end or maybe a new grad. If you're a new grad and you don't have a lot of work experience, it makes sense to print your schooling top of the page. But everybody else, they just wanna see what you've done. And I know that school is super important, but live experience is a little bit more of a priority at this point. So make sure that you kinda show the growth of your career, going over major accomplishments and making sure that you're really showing off what you've done technically. Part of that is because a lot of people reviewing your resume are not going to be super technical. I know that you're probably applying for a technical job being a project manager or an engineer or a data scientist, but most of the first people that review your resume are not technical. It's probably a recruiting coordinator. It might be their very first job and they haven't figured out what technologies work with what technologies. So a lot of times I'll talk to candidates that feel like, oh, that's just a given. You would know if I've used this technology, I've absolutely used that technology. You only know that if you are a computer science major. I would tell you most average people don't know those things and it took me in recruiting probably a year and a half to two years to even learn some of the tech that is assumed. And yes, the slides will be shared after. So at the very end of this presentation, there is going to be a link to a resume template that Vaco has provided. So it's a good cheat sheet to create your resume around that. So that should help. So I want to kind of go through the do's and don'ts. Happy to try to explain this, hopefully it all makes sense. But like I said, include a GitHub link, but make sure you have stuff on your GitHub link. And try really hard. I think the one page resume is a total myth unless you are a brand new college grad. You need to show off what you're doing. You absolutely have no reason to keep it super minimal. At the same time, we don't need to create a novel here. So the 10 page resumes adds a little much. If you have a lot to show off, you can always have a shorter resume and a longer version. But usually if you're applying through an ATS or just to like an email address at a company, the person that's looking through it, like they're not necessarily going to know or understand. So sometimes having a 10 page resume just looks like overkill, especially if they don't understand some of the relevance of the things you've added to said resume. So I like to suggest four bullet points of things that you're proud of from each company. But making sure to show what your contributions are. And I mean that in, if you're the one building the programs, don't be afraid to say I because it really does explain who's done what. And there is some judgment that goes around like, if we've used we too many times, maybe that means that said person wasn't so great at that skill. So just kind of keep those things in mind and make sure everything on your resume is something you feel super confident about. I can't tell you how many times I've had hiring managers look at me and say, well, it's on their resume. So I decided to ask them about it and come to find out. They really didn't know anything about that. That is usually a red flag. And I think it's mostly because people have, I don't know, had a minute or two of experience maybe playing with the technology and so they're familiar with it, but not at an intermediate level. And then putting it on your resume kind of creates the assumption that you know about that. Unless you make the distinction on your resume, you can certainly make the distinction of interests or things you're learning. But yeah, putting it on in the list of technologies does make that assumption. One of the big things that I always tell new grads when they reach out to me in regards to starting their job search or what they should do is participate in open source. I mean, I realize that's kind of a given considering we're at the open source summit, but it makes a huge difference. It changes everything because you don't have to show in ongoing exercises, oh, I know how to code. You have public code, your work can be seen. Make sure to get credit for that stuff that you're doing on the side, especially if you can find an open source project that you're passionate about. And even for non-engineers, I'm not sure if everybody's aware, but there are many positions in open source where people can volunteer their time, whether it's technical writing, project management, if you do not have to code to participate in open source. And I think it's really, really important that people know that. The Linux Foundation has lots of different programs that you could volunteer with. So does the Apache Foundation. I can help you research the right place for you if you wanna email me, but there's so many options out there and being able to kind of work on your own, it shows quite a lot to companies. Aren't you agree? Yeah, and especially when you're working or applying to open source companies, I can't tell you how many times hiring managers and interviewers appreciate seeing an interest in open source outside of just wanting to work at a company. Yeah, yeah. So, keep that in mind and please reach out if you have questions about where you should spend your time. But it's the best advice I think I've ever given anybody. And if you have a lot of program experience, you can actually increase your salary by like 10K off the top if you can really show how strong your skills are. I've been able to leverage that to get candidates lots more money than what they would originally have been asking for or looking for. Anything else you can think of on that? So I guess the only thing else I would say and it goes to Lindsay's point about putting experience that you're proud of or that explain something is also making sure that your experience shows and tells what you did in your job. Earlier this year I was looking for product managers and I can't tell you how many resumes I saw that each job in that one resume said the same thing about user stories and XYZ. So that told me they had, they knew what a product manager did and they did that but not how that changed from company to company or what that accomplished in that company. So keep that in mind too where you kind of wanna show what that meant to that company. Yeah, absolutely. The other thing to keep in mind, let's say you wanna get in open source and you have no open source experience, make sure to include your volunteer work then on your resume, make sure it's towards the bottom but I have a lot of open source hiring managers that if they haven't worked in open source, understanding what it's like to volunteer for a company or for an organization and have to work in a community, getting along, making sure that you are making an impact but not having the ability to have somebody in control, so to speak or some manager to go to to solve a problem. Having that volunteer experience kind of shows that you can work in that type of environment. So keep that in mind, even if you don't have open source experience you can still get your foot in the door and I know I can only assume a lot of people here have maybe been affected by COVID. So I do know that it's a very stressful job market right now and wanna be a resource to you. I wanna be able to help you with your resume, answer questions. It just allows me to give back to this community which means so much, so don't feel bad if you start emailing me questions, I promise. I will get to them, I'm really good. Let's see, what else did I wanna make sure I went over? I think I've said this a few times but the person reviewing your resume is not going to be technical and that's the same thing for an ATS. If a company is so large that they have an ATS remember that the ATS is sometimes pulling buzzwords and so if your resume doesn't have enough of the key words that the job description has it's not gonna get flagged to be looked at. Let's see, what's an ATS? An Applicant Tracking System. So when you think of all the third party, I don't know, let's say you go to IngenX back in the day, used to use a greenhouse. So when you went to their website it would send you to greenhouse and then you would apply there and you would put your resume in. That's another thing I wanna add. I know a lot of people have their resumes in PDFs so that the format doesn't get changed when you send it around but I've done a lot of reading lately and some ATSs actually don't convert a PDF very well. And I have heard from those recruiting managers that they just tend to move on to the next one. So it might be worth your time to have a Word document just so you can make sure that your information is getting picked up and scrubbed. And the same goes with LinkedIn. I can say that LinkedIn works with the same type of systems where if I'm looking, if I put a job description in for an embedded systems engineer and I don't capture any of the same words from that job description on somebody's LinkedIn profile, you won't show up in my search. So it is important even if it seems repetitive, if you've used Java in all of your last five jobs, make sure you put it in every job that you talk about on LinkedIn and your resume. Don't just assume because, oh, I put it at the very top, I'm good, the more times that you repeat yourself, the more likely it is to get picked up by these systems or by the recruiting coordinator who doesn't know tech and this is their first job. So just kind of keep that in the back of your mind. And it's okay to provide references like, and I mean testimonials. If let's say my last company, I made a huge impact and I was recognized for something and maybe my manager has given me a professional kudos. It's okay to print that, two sentences and who said it about you, but do not print references with names, phone numbers and emails. Your references will really not like you, but secrets of these staffing world, lots of people will come and look at the contact information and use it for their benefit. And then you just don't want people reaching out to your references without you knowing it. So make sure you control that process. Can you think of anything else? I think you've covered a lot. Only 20 minutes, that's pretty good. No, you do have a question. Oh, do I? I can't read it. If you have a YouTube channel, is that something to bring? I guess it would depend on the type of job that you're looking for. And make sure that your YouTube channel actually is relevant to the job you're applying for. I mean, if you are an engineer and you are teaching people secrets to coding, great. I say, wonderful, highlight it. But other than that, I don't know. It would depend too. If it is like a UX or a UI role, right? You're going to have a portfolio. If you have that featured on YouTube, I think that's perfectly acceptable. But I would just be really careful about making sure that it shows off who you really are. And that it captures your personality along with something that is relevant to the job. That's a good opportunity for a company, once again, to see you and to see your presence. And so you just want to be careful. I wouldn't apply that to anything outside of YouTube. I know Lindsay specifically mentioned LinkedIn and GitHub, but obviously depending on your job or what you're doing, there could be things outside of that. But yeah, it has to be relevant to your profession. The YouTube channel about cutting wood isn't going to be as relevant, unless perhaps it's a company that has to do with wood cutting. Right. Show passion. But yeah, it should be relevant. Fair. And David asked, to add a GitHub URL on a resume, do you need to have a large project in your GitHub account or will smaller bits of code work? If the code is good, show it off. Smaller bits of code is fine. I mean, plenty of people fork code multiple times. I think a little bit of code is perfectly acceptable. As long as it's good. I'm just trying to see if there's any other questions. How about GitLab? Is GitHub better from the resume perspective? I have some personal WIP projects on GitLab. Sorry, I need a bigger screen. Just wondering if I should move them once finished. I don't think so. I mean, I think either works perfectly fine. I'll be honest, I haven't jumped on GitLab as much as I have GitHub. So I'm not as educated, but I've never seen a hiring manager go, I don't want to look at that. So I think you're safe. Personal interests and traits, still a thing on a CV. Only if your personal interests are related to the job. I can't tell you how many hiring managers want to know if somebody's involved in tech outside of their job. But being able to show, hey, I've got a side project where I've started tinkering with something at home and I've created this, yeah, show it off. Even if it's, I mean, even if it's sailing, right? I mean, there's gotta be at least something else going on with you, hopefully, unless you're me. So I think the worst it's gonna do is start conversation, but keep in mind, you don't want to affiliate yourself with any situation that might cause some negative spin. And I say this from kind of a political standpoint, stay away from calling out specific religious organizations or specific political groups. If there's a way to show an organization that you volunteer with without kind of specifying, it's probably safer. People just make assumptions, so it's easier. Say, unless you volunteer for them on a engineering basis, right? That I would say there are plenty of, for example, IT administrators who have worked for churches and stuff like that was their profession. Right, right. Now I'm just saying on like a side project, just make sure, for instance, like if you volunteered at five churches, you know, maybe just leave off the name of said church or maybe just talk about what you did. Or just keep that in mind. Besides traditional education should one mention relevant courses taken, Coursera, edX, Udacity, et cetera. Yes, just keep in mind that people want to see continuing education, that you're kind of staying up to date with things. They're going to be a little nervous if you're just showing off a whole bunch of schools or programs that you've completed. Sometimes people are just kind of chronic class takers. That becomes something that they want to show up on their resume. But keep in mind, a lot of companies want to make sure that you've used this in production. Is that fair? I would agree with that wholeheartedly. I don't think it hurts you. However, they're going to be more interested in how that was put into production. Do research papers, public conference talks, matter and a resume? Okay, the public conference talks, yes. Absolutely, everybody wants to know if you've spoken publicly about tech, if you have that experience. Papers, make sure they're relevant to the job. I mean, yes, for like a data scientist, absolutely. But maybe not for every position. So just make sure, and if you have a lot of them, make sure you pick specific to the organization. Is it a security company? Was it a paper on security trends? That's super relevant. But if you have a lot of them, maybe you just want the three most relevant. Did it patents? Oh, patents, yes. And I mean, I would even put in news articles and blog articles assuming they are professional in nature. Yeah, yeah. If you have one or two great blog articles that have been picked up or that you know created some buzz, absolutely refer to them. It's never going to hurt you unless it's just not related to the job you want. Let's see what. Demonstrate growth, is it better to order job experience chronologically? Most recent on the top. Absolutely, no question about it. Most recent on the top. I'm not sure why anybody would want to show off what they did 10 years ago versus what they're doing currently. But to me, it's somewhat of a common sense situation. You've touched it most recently. You're probably the strongest in it. So I would definitely make sure that that is at the very top of your resume. Lindsay, how do you feel about gaps in work experience? Do you address that on your resume directly or just leave that gap in time and don't say anything? I go back and forth on this. I would say I actually go back and forth on this too. I think, look, have you taken a year off because you were taking care of a family member? Absolutely, pretty you took a sabbatical. It is very common, especially in tech, to take sabbaticals. So I think that that's perfectly okay. Just be aware that if you've done it a lot, it's gonna pose some questions. So if you've done it a lot, you might want to just refer to one thing and then let it be a conversation once you get kind of tagged for the interview. Does that make sense? Makes perfect sense. Do you feel the same way? Yeah, I think sometimes if there is a particular reason that you are off, it's easier to mention it. I did that earlier in my career because I took time off between college and starting a career. Ditto for acquisitions. A lot of people will separate out acquisitions in their resume or their company was acquired. So their role changed and they worked for a new company and it can kind of be confusing because that can look like, now suddenly you've been at a lot of companies when really it was one company for four years. So sometimes it's easier to, if you're gonna list it as a separate company or separate job because it was, noting maybe in the job before or the company that was acquired or the one that was that company acquiring. Acquired by all. So this happened to me twice. With they go in with F5, acquired by F5 on the state. I think that usually I'll pick it up, but it actually it takes me a couple of minutes, which is time that people frankly could get confused and leave the resume. Sure, sure, it makes sense. Another suggestion for acquisitions and just showing off on your resume, let's say for me, I've been at Vaco for eight years now. Vaco acquired my past company. So I don't show on my resume or on my LinkedIn, oh, I started a new job. I say I've been at Vaco the whole time because I haven't job hopped. I want people to know that. And then underneath it, I list my different responsibilities. Oh, I was a manager of this team for these two years. I was a director of a team for these two years, but at the very top it shows for eight years, I've been at Vaco. Because a lot of times people are going to the resume and they wanna see how many times have you job hop. And sometimes people bury the lead on their resume because they didn't job hop, but it looks like two different companies because of an acquisition there. All right. Okay, so another question that came in. How can a recruiter possibly sell me to a client if they don't understand my technical background? They can't. I'm gonna tell you this right now. And this is very, very unpopular. Recruiters can be amazing and they can also be awful. I do not like recruiters and I am a recruiter. So I don't know what that means, but I really am like the anti-recruiter. If you, I fell in love with open source. So I understand the technology. And because I do, I have a team of people that equally understand the technology. I would tell you most recruiters do not. Doesn't mean that they're bad recruiters, but if they can't articulate to you what they're gonna do to sell you, it's okay to interview your recruiters. If you want to work with an outside staffing agency, which I do suggest, if you're looking for a new job, why would you put everything on you? Why not try to help yourself out and make sure to get out there and be recognized as much as possible. Working with an outside recruiter is often good because they can tell you things happening in the industry that you otherwise would not know. So kind of keep that in mind, but please, please interview your recruiter and only work with one to two recruiters. Do not work with all 10 that reached out to you. I'm gonna tell you right now that a lot of recruiters are then not going to do you much of a benefit in the sense that maybe they don't sell you well, and then you're already in somebody's system. And then I can't present you because Joe over at Terrible Recruiting Company over there subbed you, didn't do a good write up and now you're in their system. They're ATS and I cannot represent you. So make sure that you're working with one to two agencies and make sure that your recruiter agrees to tell you before they send you to any client. You should control that. So, and I'll go one step further to when I am representing a candidate, I actually write my sales pitch on them and send it to them first so that they can review it and make sure that they're comfortable with what I've said and that I'm not kind of over exaggerating anything. I wanna make sure that they feel like this is a solid representation of myself. And then they can give me input. Did I say something wrong? Did I misunderstand something wrong in my interview? Make sure if you're gonna work with a recruiter that you partner with them, this can be your very best friend. And I can't tell you how many people I've helped even if I don't work with a client. Maybe I'm not going to lie to a candidate ever. So if I don't work with company X and you want to, I'm happy to go and try to sell you to them. And if it doesn't work, I'm equally happy to tell you you should go apply directly because that's gonna be your best way in. So work with a recruiter and use them as your advocate. Make sure it's a mutual relationship and not just one way. Is that fair? Yeah, I run on play. I get this question a lot from my family members because I won't represent family or good friends. It's just awkward. So usually I just tell them to, like Lindsay said, interview them, trust your gut. To an extent, you do wanna build a relationship with these people just like you would your colleagues. And make sure they kind of understand what you're looking for. But I think it's very valid to ask them, not only what they know about the company, what companies they work with, if there's a particular job they're pitching you, how long they've worked with that company, what the teams are like, they see how much information they know. And usually the more information they know, the closer they are with that client, but I will preface that by saying if they've only worked with the company for like a month, that's not a bad thing. And they might not know a whole lot yet because they're learning. So that's why, just dig in a little bit and find out. But Lindsay's right. And a lot of companies work with a lot of agencies. So it is kind of important to find a few recruiters who are working with different companies, finding two recruiters who are working with the same exact companies and help you. No, and if you can really develop that partnership, it's going to, I mean, I have candidates that I've worked with for 10 years because we're friends now. I mean, they come to my family events, they're on my Facebook, they're on my Instagram. You just, you develop really close relationships if you're good at this. And job hopping for a recruiter. This is once again, not going to be popular, but I've been with an agency now for eight years. And I have team members that have been with me six, five. It's okay to judge your recruiter. If they haven't been able to stay at a job, they might not be really good at what they do. There is a possibility. Now that's not always the case, but it is a possibility. Anything else? Yeah. It goes both ways. Yeah. Where in my resume, should I print my open source contribution, experience section, skills, or a separate section? And should it be at the very top or middle? How impressive is your open source contribution? It depends on what the job is and how much attention you want that to get. I am a huge fan. So I say you show it off at the top. But I also think that it's okay to associate open source work with jobs. Maybe you did some work in Cassandra because your company was using that. And so you want to call it out at said specific company. That's fine. I mean, we can be creative. Yeah. I don't think it matters as much where it necessarily is. I would say the only thing that could cause confusion potentially is if you have like a lot of different open source kind of projects mixed in with your experience because if someone's reading really quickly, it can look like, again, a lot of different jobs. But even with that, like if there's a major one you've been working on for four years, I don't think it's bad to put it in your experience. So just think about it within context, right? And ask a friend. Maybe if you have put it on your resume in a certain way, ask a friend if it looks confusing. Ask your recruiter if it looks confusing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Shall we talk about what not to do? Yeah, that's the next slide. I just want to make sure I'm not forgetting anything. Is there a limit for how long a resume should be? Yes, there absolutely is, but it depends. So I mean, I think, look, don't date yourself. Your resume should probably go back about 15 years. And then at the bottom of it, you can always say request extended resume if you were looking for more, what do people say, all sorts of things. Or you could always just have your LinkedIn being kind of your extended resume, from maybe add that into your experience. Either of those is fine. Yeah, and I would, sorry, I'm thinking out loud, I would keep it to like no more than four pages unless you are a PhD and you are trying to show off a whole bunch of patents you have or something to that extent. So only time I really see resumes go longer than four pages. And I would tell you if you can keep it to two or three, it's the best, but I don't think there's any hardcore rules. I don't mind four or five if it is relevant and useful. But I've seen some 12 page resumes and I will, I'll be honest after six pages it's hard to continue. But I think what you've heard a lot from Lindsay when you think about a lot of these questions and I don't know if you've noticed the themes the same way that I have, it's about relevance and reasonableness. So if you have these questions and don't have a recruiter to ask, think about is it relevant and is it reasonable? I will say I've never found a 12 page resume to be reasonable, never. Usually we might be kind of going, oh my goodness, it's still going. We're even just also don't find them reasonable. No, no, most of them do not. Let's see, next question. Any recommendations for people just wanting to work online? You virtually? Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the question completely. If it's working from home, I mean, you can print on your resume remote only, but you're also just keep in mind that if you do that, you're definitely limiting yourself. Some people just aren't gonna call you and maybe they only want you to come in the office once a week and you're not gonna know that unless you talk to somebody. So just keep in mind, if you do print like remote only on your resume, you could just be limiting yourself, but it is okay if that is a situation that you're in where I've worked remote for 20 years, I'm absolutely not going in the office. It just might take you a little longer to find something. I had a couple of friends recently looking for remote only jobs. And one of the things that I heard from them is that a lot of them were getting quite far in the interview process and they were doing very well and they were being passed on. And the company's feedback was basically you're really good. Like you're really, really good, but remote jobs are highly competitive right now. A lot of people are going for them. So it might take you a lot of your time and it could be frustrating. That's why I know, because they were calling me frustrated asking me if they could do something. And a lot of people want to be remote and that increases the competition. Yeah, absolutely. Next question, how much does a certification matter? That depends. This is my favorite answer. Now let's say you're looking for contract work. Maybe you prefer a contract. Maybe you like to work in short stints on different projects. And companies need that, don't get me wrong. So there's a lot of certifications that matter for those jobs. I would tell you for a full-time role, it's 50-50. It just depends on how relevant it is to the job. Again, I know I keep saying this, but I see that more than anything. People are referring to things that don't really catch attention. Is that fair? Yeah. I mean, if you took like, let me put it this way. If you're an engineer and you took a Microsoft Excel class, let's not put that on there. Only because they assume that you would know that. Um, participation in engineering meetings, events, and communities are relevant at an addition information. Trying to understand that question completely. It says participation in engineering meetings, events, and communities are relevant at an additional information question mark. I think this goes to community involvement. Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely if it's going to, once again, help you. I mean, if you're applying for an evangelist position, you definitely want to show off all of your community involvement. And especially if you're like a PM and you are managing the relationship between engineers and maybe the end user or the client, then that type of communication is super important and we're showing off. But it just depends on how relevant it is to the job. I just keep saying that over and over. All right, so I'm going to go to the dumps and then I'm going to, don't worry, I promise I will get through the questions. Okay, so this isn't going to be super popular. So please don't judge, but do not use Hotmail, AOL, or Yahoo. They don't exist anymore as far as people are considered technical. So think about it, Hotmail has changed to live. Let's update those email addresses to end with live.com, Google, Gmail, hay.com, but to some extent using Hotmail, AOL, or Yahoo, not only are there some level of dating yourself, but there's some assumption made that you are not as technical. I know plenty of people that create their own proprietary email address, which is fine. I just would stay away from the Hotmail, AOL, or Yahoo. And I know that there's a bunch of you right now that are glaring at me and thinking of what you're going to change on your resume, but that's my suggestion. Do you agree? Yeah. Do not use different fonts, okay? And don't use anything that's so small, I can't read it. Keep that in mind. I know some people try to get creative and it's okay to take some creative liberties, but let's not go overboard. You want to make your resume super easy to read and easy to follow. So when you're looking at it, it takes longer than 60 seconds to figure out what you do and who you are and where you've been. They're going to stop looking. Most coordinators or recruiters, they're going to review your resume for no more than a minute or two before they talk to you. So they're not going to get your entire work experience in that resume. So just keep that in mind. I think sometimes people want to put everything they've ever touched. Ever. Um, let's see. Do you have any tips on cover letters? Or are they not generally required now? Very opinion even on this topic. Uh-oh. Maybe I should go first since Mary has such a strong opinion or maybe I should go second. I don't think cover letters are super important anymore. The other thing I will tell you is if you're going to write a cover letter and you don't take the time to change the company name, I just threw out your resume. I can't tell you how many people maybe started a cover letter for company X and then they applied a company Y and then they include that cover letter from company X and I'm like, oh that? Nope, not the same. No attention to detail, bye. So if you're going to do a cover letter, please make sure that it is the one for the company you're applying to and that you're speaking to the experience that you have that matches the job description. Now I'm gonna let Mary go with her super opinion. It's fairly similar, which is good. I apply the same principle to like objectives on the top. If it's a stock cover letter or a stock objective, it doesn't make a difference to me. I will probably stop reading, not the resume, just the cover letter. So if you're going to include those, I think they need to speak to why you're interested in that job or qualified for it. And again, in a non-stock way and especially if there's a particular reason you're very interested in that company. So the only cover letters I've written and included on a resume were for companies that I really wanted to work at and my cover letter really called that up specifically including like our company histories so it's clear that cover letters have changed by mine to give someone a call when they're good and they changed my mind to not call someone when they're not stock cover letters, but really bad. So I think it's something that can hurt, I'm sorry, help, but it can also hurt if it's not done right. Under present. The other thing I would say is, so this is gonna sound the same as what I said before, but being a good recruiter is kind of the same as being a good candidate. I'm going to send you a very detailed message showing that I've read your LinkedIn and I know what you've done so that you want to respond to me. Getting a message from somebody who, oh, I'm looking for this and it looks like you did that 12 years ago, awesome. I mean, that's almost an offensive email to get when you send somebody who's maybe now at a director level and you're asking them if they wanna be a cis admin in a state that is across the country. That person is laughing as they read it, the same thing with a cover letter and a resume. If you really wanna work for said company, make sure that you change it to match that company. But I really wanna work for a company, I can tell you why. So make sure that you address that. Let's see, how important is it to structure the resume towards the advertised position? For example, if one experience really is not well aligned to the position as one is trying to move into a different profession, gotten recent qualifications in that profession. If you're trying to change professions, I highly suggest that you work with a recruiter, at least to talk to, because what you're gonna wanna do is show off your progression of why you're moving in that direction. And does it just make natural sense? Changing careers can be hard to show on a resume. So I feel like having somebody that can articulate that for you, or maybe you write such an eloquent cover letter that it's worth the time of somebody. But like Mary said, just make sure that you're aware of what you're saying and that it matches what their mission is and what's critical. And please make sure to use spell check on your whole resume and your whole cover letter. Pretty fair? I was an editor before I was a recruiter, so I will tell you one thing that can help. If you don't have someone to give your resume to, to also kind of do a spot check, you can hopefully maybe save it as a different document just in case it messes up the formatting, but then expand the text like really large, very, very large. I'm talking 60 to 70 points. You'd be surprised how many things you can patch when the font is that large. But again, it's totally going to mess up the formatting. So maybe just, you know, copy of the text over to a different document. I would say that it was quite the benefit working with Mary having somebody that has that as her past life experience because she would catch everything that I would miss. And it is painful when she's not around to make sure that I don't miss anything. It's painful in my head when it happens. But I do think it's important to go back to the previous question to tailor your job a little, or tailor your resume a little bit to the language and the job post. It's kind of weird to say this because I don't know how I feel about it and I've never used these ATSs before, but there are ATSs that actually rank candidates based on- Word match. Yeah, which is always a little concerning to me. But for that reason, I think it doesn't, it doesn't hurt you to kind of pull in some of the similar language or tools or make it obvious in your resume or even have a few different resumes, especially if you're changing careers that are just kind of stock that you can change from there. Like when I was a writer, I had in an editor, I had a writing focus resume and an editing focus resume and a writer edit resume. That was a tongue twister. And like the content in those resumes wasn't all that different. It was the emphasis that was different. So that way, if I saw an editing job I didn't have to change my resume too much. So it just made it quicker to make, five minutes of changes to go with that job versus rewriting the whole resume for a specific job. So if there are a few different things you're interested in, that would be a good way to go. Next question. Can you please explain a bit more on the references, on the reference testimonials like presentation emails or reference emails. So what I mean by the references is if you go on LinkedIn, let's just say in somebody wrote a recommendation for you and you love that recommendation. Like it's amazing. There is no reason not to highlight it under the company when you're putting your resume together. So let me see. Okay, it's me. Maybe next year. Try that before. Well, I was going to look at the resume again and kind of point out, but Mary's gonna try to figure it out. How to, oh, but yes. Mary can fix it. I'm just not computer literate. I'm just a technical writer. So if you're looking here and let's say we put a company name and underneath it, you could literally put the reference in like italics so that somebody can see that this is what somebody thought of your work at said last company. But you're not including the contact information. No, here's the quote. Bob Smith, manager at company X. How to find a recruiter remote or local? Good question. Ask around. Definitely ask your friends. See who, oh, we're not there. It's okay. See who they've worked with. Good recruiters are hard to find, but they're out there. And if you, let's say you specialize in something, search recruiter and search that word. See what comes up and then look and see if people have recommended them from the candidate's perspective or from the client's perspective. Is that somebody that you wanna work with? And make sure your LinkedIn is also up to date. If you're searching for a job, just updating your resume and not updating your LinkedIn is a problem because then people will compare the two and feel like maybe you're not giving us the whole story. So if they don't match, it is a little bit of a red flag. I'm not gonna lie. Any thoughts on that? Big red flag. Mary says, big, big, huge. I've been seeing resumes that have different dates than on the LinkedIn and the LinkedIn has different jobs and it's clear they're trying to hide a job that maybe they left quickly, which it's better not to hide those things and just face them directly. Yeah. I mean, if you were on a date and someone was hiding information from you would be weird, so thank you. That's fair, that's fair. And I would also tell you, there's plenty of people that reach out to me as a recruiter that I'm not the best person to help them, but I can find them the best person to help them. So just to be clear as a recruiter, if you're not willing to recommend somebody else because you're not going to be able to assist this person, you're not doing them any service. So you could use that as your criteria also when you're looking for somebody to work with and partner with, are they willing to kind of go out of their way to help you out? And sometimes recruiters do get swamped. I mean, they're busy too and I know everybody thinks that we're the same as car salesmen. I say it too, but you know, don't be afraid to reach out to your recruiter if you have questions or send them messages or text them. Hey, I'm just wondering, is this still happening or I haven't heard from you. It's okay to bug them, 100%. Let's see. Oh, let's not include head shots. It's just weird. If you want, you know, maybe they use them for real estate resumes, I can see that. But look, on a resume, every time I would get a resume with a head shot, I would instantly think like weirdness factor. It is just unnecessary and it doesn't really help you show off anything. And you're probably going to have a photo on your LinkedIn anyway. And that's important. I mean, I think it is important to show off who you are. So. Also personal detail. It is common in other countries to include details like age, marital status. Yeah, that's right. Don't do them here though. We're not just coming here. No, 100%. Let's see. Is it possible to end up with the same benefit, salary, et cetera, when you're applying for a position versus being head hunted by the company? Yes and no. It depends on are you going from a large company to a small company? It's going to be a lot harder to match that same salary and benefits. So it depends on what your motivation is. If you're just, hey, I need to find a job that's a little different than, hey, I want to look and passively find my perfect job. It can be tough though, to get exactly the same. Usually when you're working with a recruiter though, you're going to tell them like, I'm motivated because I need to make more money. I know what market rate is and I need to make more money. That's perfectly fine. But if you're actively trying to go to a different company, you're going to have a little bit harder of a time convincing them to match exactly their same benefits. And some companies can work with extra vacation. Some can't. Some can work with extra days off. Some can't. Some can give you multiple benefit plans and some can't. So you really have to decide is that a reason not to consider a job? I think it's valid if you decide it is a reason not to consider a job. Oh, absolutely. And I think it's also if those benefits are important to you, I think it's also valid to talk about it in the first call or two early on where you don't want to waste your time or their time. Yeah. One of the other things is don't lose track of where you've applied. I know it gets hard when you're really stressed about finding a job. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, I just clicked the link and I hit the apply button and it does it magically for me and I didn't even have to think about it. Great. No. I mean, so here's the problem with that. First off, it's going to look really bad if you're working with a recruiter and tell them my dream job is to work at the Linux Foundation. Okay, great. Well, I can make a sales pitch to the Linux Foundation that you're their dream job, but if you've already applied, I can no longer make that sales pitch for you. So just keep that in mind that if you don't know if you've applied somewhere, I see that as a red flag, 100%. You have no attention to detail in my mind. And I'm not saying that's true. I'm just saying that these are the assumptions that are made. And whether we like it or not, I mean, that's what recruiting and hiring is about. So is a professional summary required in a good CDB? I almost find an objective is more important to me than a summary. What do you love doing? What do you wanna focus on? I am an open source headhunter and I am passionate about open source. Do I wanna be a recruiter outside of tech? Absolutely not. So I would say I often, I don't think it matters. I really think that that comes down to your style preference, but you do wanna tell them what your goal is, especially if you've had a few different jobs, where you've had different titles, which one are you really passionate about? What are you looking for? Where can you contribute to said company? Don't forget what the word summary means. I've definitely seen some professional summaries that were, it was like a bullet pointed list that went a page and a half. That's no longer a summary. That definitely isn't. And I know we mentioned this before, but I'm just gonna reiterate it again. Make sure that you don't include skills that you're not confident in unless you're gonna call out, like beginner, if you're qualifying your knowledge of said tech, great. But if you're not, let's not list the things because then a hiring manager could start asking you about it. And if you can't really answer it, it just looks like you're fitting. Is not having a presence on LinkedIn for reasons of personal privacy a huge detriment? I'm gonna say yes. Maybe not as much if you're applying directly to a comp. Nope, I'm still gonna say yes. I think back to CEOs that have been interviewing candidates and maybe they go to find them on LinkedIn and can't. I understand why people don't do it, but I do think that it can limit your ability to find something. So I guess you have to weigh the two options. I know that doesn't make people super happy. Will you share these slides? I absolutely will. And I think that the Linux Foundation would be able to share them, but if not, just email me and I'll send them to you. But this is going to be recorded. You should be able to have all of it. I'm constantly asked what I am looking for in salary before I even get a chance to interview and I don't wanna show my hand. Is that okay or does it look bad for me? Okay, this is a good question and I'm gonna really get into it. Salary's tough. Requirements of what can be asked are changing constantly throughout states and countries. U.S., Washington State, California State, gosh, a few more, but Vaco as a company, we just did an overall rule on it for every place because we don't know what state, what location. They cannot legally ask you what you were making in your last job. I can ask you what you're targeting. Yes, however they can ask you what you're targeting. Here's the thing. When somebody tells me going rate, I always respond with, well, going rate to you and going rate to me can be very different. If you're talking to a company, I play this game a little different. If you're talking to a recruiter, I give them all the information. An outside recruiter, just so you know, they usually make more money on your base salary. So the higher they can get you, the better it is. I'm never going to undersell one of my candidates, but I'm also gonna tell you, hey, if you want 150 and the max of their range is 145, I'm gonna tell you that. And I do think that it's very realistic to tell people, hey, I'm very flexible if the job is a good fit because that's 100% true. For 90% of the population, if I'm gonna wake up every morning and love my job and never ever have one of those days where you just wanna hit your head against the wall, I probably don't mind taking a 10K hit. But if I have to drive 30 more minutes, I probably really mind taking a 10K hit. So I would be very, very truthful with your staffing recruiter. And then how would you answer it from internal? So from my perspective, we do, well, I do, usually like to cover target salary in the first call. And it's mainly to save us both time, right? As Lindsay was saying, if I'm at a small startup which can be limiting in salaries, and I know that I can only pay 140 for an engineer and you're targeting 160 and you tell me that and I'll tell you, our range is cash out at 140 and we really don't have a lot of flexibility there. Maybe like 5K, would you consider that? It's not because I'm trying to, can't you take a lower salary? It's because I don't know your cost of living. I don't know if you have kids in college and I'm not asking that. There are times that I've taken a job where I've had flexibility and there are times because of my financial situations that I haven't had flexibility. So I think they ask you that sooner because if there is a deal breaker there, you don't wanna go through hours of interviews. So I think it is okay to ask them their range in return. Sometimes they'll tell you, sometimes they won't. Sometimes they don't know. I've certainly started searching for a job where we haven't figured out what the range is yet. Or frankly, we don't know what the range is. Absolutely. Because it's a new job for the company and we're trying to figure out what that range is. So I think you should start, you should give them a range. And I always say you should give them the top of your range, right? Don't, I had friends tell me they gave them the bottom of their range. I'm like, why did you do that? Right? Like when I give a range for myself, I think about what I wanna make and then I usually add a little bit on top of that assuming that we might have to go down and I'll end up right where I wanted to be. Right, right. And I would say the more comfortable you are with the person you're working with, the more honest, I'm brutally honest. So even in an interview, I would be brutally honest. If I love a job, I'm going to probably consider a pay cut depending on where I'm at in my life. But usually you should be able to stay pretty in line. But don't think that there's such a thing as market because the big dogs of the world have made it so there is no such thing. You have companies that are paying well over market. You have companies that are startups that maybe are just paying the median range which isn't terrible, but when your buddy at Netflix told you about their salary, you feel like, oh my goodness, there's no way that I'm not getting that much. Well, it does depend on how their compensation package works. A lot of times companies look at stock, equity, bonuses, vacation time as extra benefits, you have to be able to take all of that into consideration. Is it okay to apply for multiple positions at the same company? At the same time or several months later? So once again, it depends. So I'll give you an example. They're really, really bigger companies. They have no idea if you applied for another job. Think of the Amazon, think of the F5s, think of Microsoft, right? They don't know if you applied for job 008524 or not. There's just not enough recruiters to sit there and go through a huge database of resumes. So if there's two jobs at the same company and it's a huge company, absolutely apply for both of them. But if it's a small company, if it's less than 100, 200, 300 people, probably don't. It's probably one recruiter managing that. And if they see your resume and they, oh, maybe not for this position, but maybe for the other one, they'll totally pick up the phone and call you. So once again, I know that that's a little misleading because you don't know exactly how big the company is. And if, worst case, yes, go ahead and apply. It's not going to hurt you. Just make sure that you're qualified for both jobs. I guess that's the secret. I agree and disagree. I don't mind it when someone applies to multiple jobs, but Lindsay is correct. When I first started managing the recruiting at IngenX, I was the only recruiter. So I knew every job, but that's not always the case. So I don't mind that so much. However, I have had candidates apply to a sales position an engineering position and a product management position. And I find that highly confusing and is a little bit of a red flag for me. At that point, it just looks like you're applying for any job and I can't tell what your interests are. So yeah, if there's two front and engineering positions at the company, sure. If you're qualified for both, absolutely. Otherwise maybe just apply for the one you want the most and then mention your other interests during the call. Right, right. Let's see. Can you speak on ideas on finding out market value based on experience, field and location? There's lots of websites that give you ranges. Salary.com, which I'm sure is an aggregate from something else. Dice.com puts out a salary survey every year. Last door. A lot of recruiting agencies put out salary reports. There's a lot of different. And even if, like I said, use a recruiter to help you. So even if it gets down to, I'm not sure what going market is for this, this and this. Could you give me an idea? I'm literally just gonna tell you. Like, okay, what were you making? 130, you were definitely underpaid and I would target this for instances. But overall, there are enough aggregates out there that you can get an idea. But just remember that there's some wiggle room to those. So. Although there are definitely some jobs that have absolutely no range. Yeah, yeah. Like IT systems admin can go anywhere from 60K to like 150 depending on how close they are to operations or security or X. So there are some jobs where I literally, I couldn't get someone right on market range. But some engineering jobs are pretty tight in range. What's your opinion on engineers that go to job interviews from time to time not to get recipe? And mixed feelings. But I definitely, I don't think that there's anything wrong with it. Like interview, interview, interview, interview. Who knows? Fall in love with something you never thought you would. I don't think that it causes an issue. Just make sure you're not leading somebody on. If you really don't think you're going to take something, just make sure that you kind of make that clear. I know it's not always easy to read everybody's intentions in an interview. But if you get them super excited and then you turn them down, let's just pretend you lose your job in six more months and then you reapply. It might work, it might not. I mean, I wouldn't tell them that you're practicing or doing. I think it's okay to tell them that you're a pass up. Especially if you think you're going to start looking for a job. I'm very much a big fan of practicing or doing. Yeah. Yeah, even if you take one just to, hey, I just want to remember how what they're talking about and see if there's nothing wrong with it. Just make sure that you're just realistic and definitely let them know that you're only passively looking. Because if they think that you're 100% looking for a job and then they can't close you, they're going to feel like they failed. How should I evaluate compensation if a new position now involves travel? One week, a month, and thus I'm away from family and personal obligations? Should I expect to be compensated more and how do I determine how much more? I don't think there's a good answer to that question. Yeah, I mean, I would look at it. Are you currently traveling for your work and would taking this new job require travel that you're not currently being asked to do? Yeah, so you want to be compensated for that, but here's the other side. I work in a job where face time is super important, whether it's a candidate or a client. So I'm not compensated anymore for all of my travel, but I don't mind doing it because it helps me do my job better. I know in some situations, people feel like I can do my job remotely. It's kind of hard because I don't think that there's any true rule out there for that. No, I think you just have to decide what you're comfortable with. Yeah. Assuming, hopefully, it's not very unreasonable for that position in general and what it would normally be paid, right? If a position that travels doesn't normally get paid 50k more just because it's travel paid position, that's not gonna. But I think it's kind of like the salary conversation and you have to decide what you're comfortable with and then make that decision. Yeah, absolutely. Let's see, are there any other? Do companies recognize resume templates or the companies biased using templates versus laying it out by myself? I don't care. I mean, I always find it funny when I can tell someone who didn't lay tech, but that's only because my husband and lay tech, literally our cookbook isn't laid tech. That's fine. I don't care personally, unless you're a creative role. If you're a designer, yes, they will judge you or not judge you, but it could be a hindrance. But I think for other roles where that's not a factor and it matters. Yeah, I definitely don't have a preference. My biggest concern is, is it correct? Did you spell everything right? Do you have issues with the layout? Yeah. Let's see. We've got 10 more minutes here. So it's how to deal with particular tooling environments that are not on your resume. Well, I would tell you if you're proficient in a tooling environment, it should be on your resume. I'm not sure if that answers that completely or if I'm not understanding my thing. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if it's a tool that you use, it should be, I would say, in your skill section at a minimum and hopefully in your description of your work if you're talking about what tools you used and how you accomplished it. Okay. This is a great question because I didn't really talk about this on the last slide. Have references ready for an outside recruiter. Now, if I haven't worked with you before, I'm going to wanna call your references before I start selling you to my clients. That's to protect me. My reputation is on the line with the people that have worked with me and trust me. So I want those references upfront, but like I said, make sure you wanna work with me before you give me those. How do you politely decline if you're just, if you're not looking at a contract job, if you're looking at a full-time job or a permanent job with an organization, I would just tell the organization I have references. I'm happy to provide once we get to a verbal interview or a verbal offer. I'm not comfortable giving you my references until we have a verbal offer. A lot of companies will not write a written job offer until they have a verbal yes. And that's just because of the time it takes, but they're also not going to write that written offer until they have your references. So just keep those things in mind because both are accurate. I've had companies that like to do references before the offer, but traditionally they do them after the offer. Yeah, and I mean, look, if you know that you're at offer stage and your recruiter asks you like, hey, can you get me your references because they're gonna want those before I can close this, help them out. But oh my goodness, please talk to your references first. I know it seems like a given, but I can't tell you over 20 years how many times I've called a reference that had no idea that they were listed as a reference. So maybe let your references know. References should be that no brain or like, check off stage, you know, the reference I'm sure is going to senior praises. Yeah, like there shouldn't be any issue. And then let's see, next question. I was a senior system software engineer, but I have been on a long sabbatical. Skills are stale, planning to reboot skills with Bootcamp or something. How do I deal with explaining the long gap? Well, it just depends on what the long gap was for. Like I said, if long gap is, hey, I decided to raise my family. You know, that's perfectly okay, but then you are gonna wanna show off that bootcamp. And I would maybe even speak to it in my resume. Maybe if it's been a really long time, I would print a section that says sabbatical, maybe what I was doing. And then wanting to get back in the workforce, I've taken these three classes, or I did this bootcamp. And then people know that you're serious, you're committed. Any others? I mean, this could be a good time. There are plenty of organizations out there that have different coding challenges and stuff, which can kind of build up a GitHub for you or a GitLab. I've recently been looking at some new organizations or some new companies and recruiting companies that specialize in doing part-time work or externships, is that what they call it? So there is a lot of ways to get creative there. And so the part-time work is for like getting you back into it so then easier to jump in the full time, getting those skills unrestrained. I'm not saying just find part-time work. Or like I said, if you work with an agency that does some contract work, so you can show like, hey, my skills are still there, that also helps. So keep that in mind. And just so you guys know, at vego.com, you can find the resume template, you can find a recruiter that you could connect with. And then there's a lot of blogs and resources and some podcasts about like interview tips and such. Does number of GitHub repos matter? Yes and no. I mean, of course it's beneficial to have some, but I don't think that you have to have a certain number to make it relevant. I think it's quality over quantity. Quantity is not bad if the quantity that's high is still good quality. I prefer not to have my phone number in my resume, but have my full mailing address. Is it better to provide my phone number and remove my street address? Yes, 100% because let's be honest, how much interaction is done via the mail? Not very much anymore. And I don't think that it's relevant to know exactly where somebody lives, but they do need to be able to talk to you. And you would be surprised how many people have an email address that doesn't work or that was entered incorrectly on the resume or was in incorrectly to the applicant tracking system. Make sure you have a phone number there. Yeah, I mean, even if you can do like a Google voice number where you can know who it is calling before you answer or Skype. Yeah, I didn't think of that. If you're applying directly to a company, yes, include the phone number. I could see if you're applying to a number of recruiting agencies and ones you might disagree and you don't know them yet, right? And you don't want your your phone number to go into a crazy amount of databases, I guess, maybe, but can't tell you how many times I've been embarrassed because I didn't realize a candidate's phone number wasn't on their resume. And we had emailed to schedule a call and like they didn't tell me their phone number. I assumed it was on the resume in two minutes before. I'm like, oh, email. I don't have your phone number. Nope. So I mean, if you're not going to include it for some reason, like make sure when you're talking to the recruiter via email, they know your phone number. Totally fair. Let's see, another question. We've got three minutes left. So adding an unfinished education, I lost it. I'm going to assume it was, should you add an unfinished education? Yeah, so I did not finish college. I think that the problem here is whether it seems deceiving or not. So if you're going to pretty college down, then and you didn't finish, make sure you print that. Graduation in process, if it's still like a master's degree that you're working on, or some college. But call that out, because otherwise it can really seem deceiving. And that's what you want to avoid more than anything. Is that fair? Yeah. But another resume, though. Oh, yeah. Very bottom. Is it still customary to send thank you notes after interviews? I'm going to be honest and tell you I love a good thank you note. I still think that they're absolutely exceptional. The one thing I always tell my recruiters is to ask their candidates to send them to them before they send it to the client. And that's just so we can make sure that they don't say anything that is going to turn off said client. So that is something I do keep in mind. Yeah. OK, this is something that can hurt and help. I've definitely had thank you notes sent to executives that were borderline rude, and it did not help at all. One other question here, what about a career change? Do you have to show me as a rookie? I mean, it depends. Is it a complete career change? Yeah, I mean, probably you're not going to come in with a level of experience that you have in your current industry. So there is going to have to be some start over, but it doesn't mean that your resume has to be blank. You just want to try to tailor it to what you're moving into. And you might have to take a pay cut. Yeah, there's a good chance. If we were fired from a previous job, should we write about it? Or what is your suggestion on the situation? So most companies, 99.9% of them will not say if you're eligible for a rehire or not. Most of them use an automated system. So it's going to verify your position and your time in. And it is not going to have anything to do with how you left. So I don't believe in not being truthful, but at the same time, I think it's perfectly acceptable to tell people, well, it's not the best fit. We're out of time. Staying with one company for 13 years an issue while looking for a job change, even though I've worked on multiple projects and roles. As long as you, and I think this is going to have to be the last question, but you guys are all free to email me anything that you want, should we proactively contact with a recruiter or agency? Absolutely. I've worked with most of my candidates for years before I ever placed them. And I think that that's perfectly normal. They should know you. This is a friend. This is a relationship. This should be a lifetime experience if they're good. You didn't answer the question about 13 years. Oh, 13 years. I think it's OK to stay in the job while you're searching. But keep in mind that the longer you're with one company, the less it seems like you can adapt to change. So if you can show off that you've worked on multiple projects or you've worked in multiple different divisions of the organization, that is in your best interest. Hopefully in that 13 years you're able to show progression. Yeah. And I think we're at the end of our time. I can't believe it because I really didn't think it was going to take a full 90 minutes. So I am so glad that so many people had questions and that we were able to help you guys. Please feel free to email me. Like I said, you can find both of us on LinkedIn. And happy to help you in any way. So I hope everybody has a wonderful day. And bye.