 Uh, our next two speakers. Here's consists of the founder of DangerousMind.io, a biohacking, grinding, implantable tech and network security podcast established back in late September of 2016. As well as another member of the Dangerous Minds podcast with a masters in software engineering focusing on studying RFID vulnerabilities. As well, a PR director slash member of the board of directors of the pro phase, uh, bio studios in Austin, Texas. They clearly didn't really need introductions but I like hearing the sound of my own voice. I was here to present on their talks Implant, Show and Tell, Cooper and Cursor. Thank you all for coming. Uh, we're, I'm, as you can tell, I'm the one that's actually from Austin he's from England. You'll be able to know that very distinctively later. If you didn't know that, I'm sorry. But anyway, we're here to give you a little bit of intro and talk about implantable technology because we have a party tonight that all of you are invited to. Implantable party. So you'll come and you can be augmented. Uh, minimum donation is uh, 50 bucks. If you want to give more, feel free to. Um, like you said, uh, who are we? I'm Cooper. I'm founder of Dangerous Minds. I'm also, uh, PR director for pro phase bio studios in Austin, Texas. And this is my co-host here, uh, Cursor. Uh, he's one of the two co-hosts that are based out of London, England. Now, we're gonna start off with some basic terms. Cause, well, when you're entering, uh, getting a nice intro to things, it's always good to get a basis of things that are going on. NFC, it's near field communications. And then RFID is radio frequency identification. So, what is RFID? Uh, well, hey, I'm the England one. Um, RFID is a short range low frequency passive powered device. Um, used often as a security key in industry. Uh, NFC is, is sort of like a subsection of RFID. They're both considered radio frequency identifiers. But, um, they, NFC is slightly different in the terms that it can also be a sender and receiver. It's kind of a loose definition that the industry has gone with. So often enough, if you listen to the podcast, we highly suggest not to implant this at home. If you do, then you'll run into the same mistakes that we've made ourselves. We'd like you to learn from those mistakes and not repeat them. It's always best to, you know, seek out a trained professional that has done this before. Uh, otherwise you'll end up learning just like us that there will be some blood, some pain. It's kind of like any piercing that you get. Uh, as you can tell by my ears, I've, you know, gauged them up a little bit. But, you know, so you might wonder what an implantation might consist of. So as it says, if you have a weak stomach, just close your eyes. I'll let you know when it's safe, or maybe I won't. It is DEF CON, so I might troll you. But here's a nice little video that gives you an idea of what a basic implantation looks like. But, you know, it's just a simple, uh, insertion of the needle than deploying in the chip. Once it's in there, then it'll, it'll take a little bit of time for the tissue to encapsulate and, uh, make it more stable. So you might be asking, where can I get some? Well, there's a few makers out there that offered augmentation, not just in the, uh, cat, uh, glass capsule, which is often called an X series. Danger Sings was one of the first to come out. CyberizedMe is, uh, based out of Australia and they offer some, uh, some versions of the chips and there's Gigiwell over in the EU. And as well, Grindhouse Wetware has a line of very interesting products that we can't wait to see come out, like the North Star and, uh, Cicadia. So now you're probably wondering, what can I do with this? And I believe Cursor's gonna help us. Yeah, so if you decide to, uh, go down this crazy path that we have, uh, there's a few things you can do. Uh, just to let you know at the top, the XEM is the RFID one and the XNT is NFC. Um, ask any questions you need after, after that. Uh, but it's a quick key. Um, so the first one most popular is NDEF records. So things that can work with your phone, your Android device, uh, you can scan your phone, uh, your, your chip and it will do things like Bluetooth settings, contact details. Uh, it can even set up Wi-Fi configuration. Um, then you have phone entry and key chain access. So if you're on an Android, then that's great because it has a built-in feature for NFC Unlocking. Um, there are third party apps as well. And if you're on iPhone, it's always not lost because iOS 11 was announced to have a core NFC library. So we'll see what happens with that. Uh, Bitcoin wallets. This is something that's been done. Um, someone, uh, made a, a Bitcoin transaction using an implant. Um, the implement, implementation was kind of trivial and not very secure, but it opens up the discussion to what we can do in the future. Uh, you've got travel cards. So, I know recently across the news there's been different things talking about implants and travel cards. Um, unfortunately we're kind of strongly confined by the technology that they choose to use as opposed to what we can get hold of. Um, door, door access and computer access is probably the most used one for RFID. Um, and this is things like if you're seeing like a prox card or, you know, like typical work, work, uh, cards you have on your key chain, um, this can be used for RFID. Um, the access is done by a unique identifier which every RFID device has. Um, so it's not too secure and there's no cryptographic functioning within the tags. Um, but you can configure, uh, a NFC device to sort of hide data in whatever custom way you want to do that. So, you're probably wondering what's coming next with the basis of, uh, this technology. Um, one of the, one of the things that's still under beta right now is called a Vivo key. It's a Java platform that is a PCB that's biosafed with a plastic-ish coating. Not to give away any trade secrets, uh, put out by dangerous things. It's still going through beta, but there's going to be a lot of interesting applications from that. So the tags that you'll be seeing today are, um, the glass capture ones. Uh, there is a different form factor one, uh, which is like a flat, uh, just like the Vivo key will be. Um, and another version of that is a DESfire. Uh, if you know RFID, you will know DESfire is a type of RFID that NXP put out. Uh, it supports triple DES encryption and AES. And the Vivo key itself, uh, as Cooper said, it is a Jacob and global platform compatible card. Uh, so what does this mean? This means a lot more can happen. Um, so again, door access control at this time, you can have fully, uh, cryptographic algorithms, um, especially for high frequency. Um, you can also emulate cards. So like the my fair classic from NXP can also be emulated with the Vivo key. Uh, and low frequency, of course, say the same because most businesses won't think that they need to pay any money to get more security, as we know. Um, wallets. So, uh, using the Jacob and global platform, you can have lots of different wallets. At the moment, it runs on Fidismo platform, uh, which you guys can, it's out of Sweden. I think it is. Uh, you can grab one of the cards from them, uh, and start playing around if you want to develop some solutions before, before this is released. Uh, they already have things like ledger unplugged, some fleet car and the Vivo key, uh, uh, OTP app. Uh, payments. Sorry. Uh, travel travel and identity cards. Um, again, because we're not confined so much, there's a lot, a lot of adoption with Desphire EV1 cards. Um, and Jacob is used pretty much everywhere. Even mobile sims and contactless payments use, use that. Unfortunately, we're still confined by organizations and public thinking. It's a hard thing to get people adopted to. Obviously, a lot of people are interested if you see the lines we have for our talks, but it's getting over that professional step of, ah, you know, it's something crazy. So, uh, and then payments. Um, at the moment it's not used and it doesn't really seem, I haven't seen many people touch in over, over this side of the pond, but uh, we use it all the time. Um, it's something that can happen because the Jacob card is, is similar to what we have in our, in our payment cards now. So this hopefully is along the horizon. Uh, and then the last thing is sort of whatever you guys can think of. So we're kind of doing a call for developers, engineers, noobs, and hobbyists, hobbyists, um, to build some stuff. You know, you guys have the crazy ideas, the awesome ideas. So put something together and then put it on our Dangerous Minds podcast university page, uh, which can find at Dangerous Minds.io. We just want to get as many people to submit as many cool things that everyone can, like a community building project thing. Now with this basis of information, you might be asking how I can know more. Uh, easy book, uh, to pick up, which is out of print, but you can still easily find on Amazon is RFID Toys by Amel, as well as, of course, uh, Dangerous Minds podcast, where we will seek out the experts and find out what got them into it and also, um, what projects they're working on and if they are actively seeking any help, as well as you just mentioned, the, you know, Dangerous Minds University, which is, uh, our attempt at putting it out there to where people, if they have projects they want to share, uh, to be able to post it and get it out there to the community. But we just want to say thank you for listening, um, and of course our tag line often enough is seek the spark, but if you find it, please share it. And, you know, if you want, uh, to be augmented, feel free to come back here at 7 p.m. tonight. And, you know, we do have other, other devices as well available, like a diagnostic card that's put out by, uh, Dangerous Minds, uh, as well as, uh, USB RFID readers to help you with your own exploring of the technology. So anyway, thanks for being here, Biohack the Planet. And if you have any questions, uh, feel free to do so. We've got the mic up here for, if you, if you have a question. We just kind of blew through that real quick. So thank you, thank you so much for speaking to us. So of course when you find a technology that you like, then you start to worry about things that could possibly go wrong. And so one of the things I think about is what happens if I ever need to get an MRI done? Um, do you have any experience with undue heating of implants? Thank you. Uh, we've actually talked to, if you listened to our episode with, uh, Melanie, uh, Segato, she, uh, mentioned that some of the higher end, uh, MRIs have a chance of, uh, damaging the chip, but, uh, some lower end ones, uh, not, not so much. I haven't had any MRIs myself, uh, since being implanted. I don't know if Cursor has. No, but what I would suggest is you go onto Dangerous Things Forum, um, and you can see the test that Amal has, has done. Things like, um, uh, shocking the thing and also, uh, cooking it in a chicken. I don't know what that was supposed to prove, but it's just a, the extent that he's done. Also the, you know, the YouTube videos he's seen lately with the crushing thing. A lot of people worried it's made of glass. Is it going to break? Uh, he's put it inside, um, one of these compressor things and, yeah, hydraulic press. And you, you'll see the amount of testing that goes through it. It's not something we've just decided, yeah, yeah, let's, let's just do this. And hopefully that might you feel a little bit better about, about that. Yeah, like one point to make on, uh, worst thing that can happen. Um, I do martial arts. I used to be a firefighter. Uh, I've, after my own investigation of it, I was very, uh, hesitant at first about having glass shrapnel in my hand. And I've found after, you know, hurrying about the chicken butter, which is basically implanted chip into a chicken, put in hydraulic press. Chicken did not survive, but it's quite spreadable now. The chip itself is, uh, survived. So it led me to believe that my hand wouldn't survive, but the chip would. So I could always pull it out, clean it off, put it back in the stump. Any other questions? Good afternoon, sir. Um, I was wondering like what makes this better than wearable tech? I look at wearable tech with the smart watches and the apps are created for it to really kind of do what you guys listed, which was very little. When you said web URLs and contact details, like why would someone want to go from the garment to like a chip? So um, that's, that's a good question. And it's a question you get asked to everyone as soon as someone figures out that you've got a chip in your hand. Um, the answer that's probably the best one I've heard again is from Amel, the guy that like develops the chip. And that's the fact that in life we have many burdens. Things like your phone, your keys and your wallet. Um, by having a small procedure that is less, you know, less damaged than say an earring can do, then you're almost getting rid of that one burden. If you have things like access systems for your house, et cetera, you don't have to worry about your keys. People have linked these up to their motor bikes, to their cars. Um, and I think the, maybe the, some of them can be seen as a bit sort of like gimmicky, maybe like the contact details and stuff. But if you're, if you're looking to, um, do some networking, uh, they're not going to forget that when they scan your hand and the details go into their phone. Past that, I mean, you know, it's established, it's established, uh, specifications. We're not developing something new. We're running on a platform that's used everywhere. So the confluence of what you can use it for, uh, are your own imagination. You know, you see NFC used every day everywhere. Um, so anything you can kind of think of doing, IOT devices, connectivity, things like that, you can use it for that. Any other questions? Feel free to line up if there's multiple people with questions. We won't hold it against you. I was just curious about, uh, like airport security lines and other security lines. You know, is it, uh, set those off and, and do you have a plausible explanation for those kinds of people? I'm sure cursor has had recent experience. I actually, uh, found out on a trip to Portland myself going through full body scan as well as wands. Unless you show it to them, they don't know it's there. And when you show it to them, they're like, what the hell? What is that for? I was like, well, it's my front door key. What's yours do? And he's like, um, obviously to get here was a bit of a long flight. But, um, so the thing, the thing that I think, uh, maybe take some realization is actually the amount of metal that's in, in these chips is less than say, the, the fly on your jeans. So that doesn't go off when you go through. It won't go off when you go through. And again, on the way here, I had to go through one of those, like, rotating thingy with jiggies. I didn't even get asked what it was, whether we need some help in London with our security or not. That's a different question. But, um, I'm, I'm pretty sure it, it should be fine out of all the people that we, we know that have them. There's a massive community. It's not just us in the room. Um, I've never heard of any stories where someone's had been stopped or apart from the inquisitive, hey, look, look what this does, which I wouldn't advise anyway, especially with you guys and your TSA people. So I'm just curious, what does the upgrade process look like as new? So implanting is one thing, but extracting it, putting a new device in, how does, how does that work? Well, if you want to get rid of it, uh, and then upgrade to a different device, it's just a small incision and then pressing on the bottom, it'll make it pop up. Then you can use some forceps to pull it away with the encapsulated tissue. It's really quick and easy, less than like five minutes. As long as it's, you know, normal in the triangle on the hand, if you put it on the back of the hand, it's a little bit more interesting at that point. Got it. I think all the words that Cooper tried to use made me feel a bit ill as well. Um, things like pulling and pushing. Um, it's, it's not actually as bad a procedure as you think because it's going into like the webbing of the skin. It's not, it's not like an operation. Don't think of it as that. It's more like, you know, you could cut your hand and it's easier actually to take out than it is to put in. And to put it in, you saw the process. It takes seconds. Thank you. Uh, I was just wondering in terms of like let's say you have like scar tissue in the webbing of your hand. Is there, is that complicated? Uh, or is it, you know, just, you know, no problem? It's like any other piercing. It, it might be interesting feel for whoever's applying it. And, you know, just like any cyst, what have you in the body, it doesn't complicate it. It's just going to feel like a speed bump almost. Uh, to be honest, because I've definitely got a lot of scar tissue on me. Anyone else? Cool. I just want to say, uh, the last time Cooper went to a con, we managed to break the provider that we have for our podcast. Uh, we since upgraded with that provider and I'd like it if we could break it again so we can go back to them and hopefully get some free stuff for the next year. Yeah, it was kind of interesting then and we were just trying to break 20,000 downloads early this year, like back in January. Uh, I can definitely tell you that this provider, according to their own stats, this weekend we broke 40,000. It's kind of crazy considering that it got started after DEFCON last year. But, uh, I'm guessing we put out some decent content and those of you that are listeners, thank you so much for everything you do. Those of you that aren't, please like us, subscribe. And if you don't like what we do, please tell us why. If you do like what we do, please tell us why. We like feedback. As you can tell, you know, both of us will talk to you if you have questions further. And feel free to come back and get some holes and find little devices in them. Thanks guys. If anyone has any questions regarding the implants, the implant procedure, if you're worried about it, et cetera, don't feel like you have to be a tough guy. Like, come and speak to us. We've done it several times. And also if you have any questions in terms of what it can do, what you think it can't do, or any ideas, just come and, come and approach us.