 Welcome to the Monday, August the 7th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Martha Smirsky, member. Has been there. He is there. He's... Sorry, it didn't work. Sometimes when I hit spacebar, I can talk. But Benjamin Cheney, member. I'm here with Crandall Steph. And Steven Everett, member. At this point, we will let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. All right. So can everybody see my screen? It's a little slideshow. All right. So. So for anyone viewing this meeting tonight via the Orca media live stream, you can participate in tonight's design review committee meeting via the zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. You can type and there's Eric. You can type this into your web browser and it should bring you directly into the meeting. Alternatively, you can call into this phone number 9292056099. And when prompted put in this meeting ID, if you are trying to get into the zoom meeting, and it doesn't let you in directly and asks for a meeting ID, it's the same number. If anyone is trying to access the meeting and is having problems, please email me at mcrandall at Montpelier hyphen vt.org. And I will be monitoring that email throughout tonight's meeting. For those attending via zoom, turning on your video is optional. For everyone attending, please do your best to keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking this will reduce background noise, especially because we're, we're all on on headphones and everything now so it's picking up, you know paper noises all of that stuff. If you've called in over your phone, you can press star six to mute or unmute if you don't see the mute buttons on your zoom display. Please reserve the chat function in zoom for troubleshooting or logistics questions that I can answer any questions or comments about a particular item on the agenda should be dealt with verbally during the meeting so please raise your hand either physically or by using the raise hand toolbar button on your zoom toolbar. And then once you've been called upon, you can state your name, and then what you're asking it so far today we just have applicants on. I don't have just general members of the public. Just note that because this meeting is remote only if the public is trying to gain access and can't. It will need to be continued to a time and place certain. I will hand the meeting back over to the chair. Okay, unless anybody has anything else to add at this point, we can go to the first applicant for 89 Main Street owner Doug netty applicant jager netty. Go ahead and describe your application for us. Even thanks for having me back. So, as you guys know we went before you once before we're installing a new exterior entrance on East Main Street, or each street sorry, and we were planning on putting a window in where door was inside that but aesthetically we look far superior after testing with the window with brick. So I'm coming for you again to ask for that change. I don't know if I'm allowed to share a screen or should share this. You can share your screen if you want or I can share the documents. Yeah, I do. I even have pulled it up. So this is the diagram of what's going on. So here's the, the new entrance space, and instead of trying to put a window where this door is now it's showing brick so this is it'll match it looks like it'll match in with everything else there. And it just keeps a uniform look throughout and talk all the windows on that side of the building, and it is just a better design we feel and so does our architect and you guys agree. Were you able to match the bricks exactly. Yep, yep we have existing brick we saved from the entrance so we plan on just reusing the brick there. It's done a very good job using the brick that he has around your entrance. Yes. So I would approve this right away. I think it'll look nice. I'm good with it. Okay. And by the way, the Eric Gilbertson has joined the meeting. So at this point is read down through the criteria sheet. And again, this is a very small change to an existing application. So exterior off for all projects exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing building shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The alterations to non historic dotted not apply here. So the alteration in this building is acceptable existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use acceptable compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of with to height of windows and doors, acceptable. Visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings, windows and doors in the facade of a building shall create a rhythm that's acceptable. Architectural features, including but not limited to cornices, windows, shutters, fan lights, and tablature trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building. So it's acceptable. All in favor of the application. Your names. This is Martha I say yes. Yes. Then yes. Great. Eric, he was a yes. Okay. And Steve says yes so it passes for that thing. And describe the next step. Yes. So, in this instance, because there were no tweaks or anything, I'm not going to require that we also get the applicant signatures on the recommendation form. So, Jager once I've got the recommendation form from Steve, whether you have or he gets that to me because he's got to sign it will get the permit issued. Given the difficulties with mail in Montpelier, do you want us to send you an email when it's ready so you can just come pick it up. Yeah, that works for us. Thanks. Okay. Sounds great. I think that's probably going to be your standard operating procedure for anything that that is happening in the near term these days. Thank you very much for coming and good luck with your project that's looking really nice so far. Thanks everyone appreciate it. Thank you. Bye bye. The next application is for one granite street owner applicant Dan Clark review new review new sighting windows canopy ribs, new exterior stairs and lighting is Dan here. Sorry, yep, did that whole thing about the mute button. Hi everybody. Oh, okay. Hi. Go ahead and describe your project for us, Dan. All right. So on the big building. You know there's two buildings on this property there's the large building that that kind of locally we know of as the clothes pin factory and then there's the small building out by the river. On the large building we're looking to be reciting the exterior new windows on the exterior. There are a few canopy roofs over some of the entries that were interested in building and the lighting that goes along with those new rooflets over over the entry doors. That kind of summarizes the large building on the small building back by the river we're looking to make some changes to that as well. And that include, well, I assume you were looking at the packet of materials, but that includes converting some of that what is storage space now into some kind of cleaned up storage space and also, and Meredith am I am I right in bringing this one up is during this during this part of the meeting. Yes. Okay, that's fine yeah it's the giving them the concept of what you're doing makes sense. And so that small building will become a store it's already storage it was storage office. Some decades ago was office and apartment, and we'll be looking to kind of turn that part of that building back into an apartment so it'll be maybe a third, a third ish apartment and two thirds storage some somewhere in there. Dan what is the eventual use of the big building. Yeah, same as what it's been used at used as for a number of years my business is housed on the first floor will be expanding into some additional space on the first floor. The upper let there's no there's no change of use in the upper levels they've been rented out for for years and will continue to be rented out. So yeah, there's no there's no change of use happening on the for the interior of the space at this point. Were you adding any additional lighting to the exterior. Yeah Steve there's on those on those canopy roofs we'd like to be installing some recess to lighting somewhere in the materials packet is a spec sheet on that light fixture so the lighting that were that we'd be adding are the recess canopy roofs and some new lighting over the entry door to our offices. There's a couple of gooseneck fixtures that we'd be looking to install over that entry door facing stone cutters way. Okay. And then your intent is to strip all the siding put in all new windows insulate and put up new clavards. You got it then exactly. Wow. That's a ambitious job good for you. Yep. How are you going to get the cool weathered paint job back. Say it again. I just love the paint job on that building as it's like warned, but I don't know how you would ever get that back. Now those that that siding has has run its course it's time for some new material there. Yeah, I get I get that. Yeah, you would it would be a wooden clapper per the notes in there. Yep, we'd be using a half by half by five clapboard. Yeah, so it'll keep the same pretty pretty small reveal on the clappards. Yeah, we'll be maintaining that you know three inch plus or minus reveal on the clapboard. Yeah, great. And keeping the trim details around the windows and corner boards and kind of all that the same. You got it. It's it's gonna, it's gonna read like a freshened up version of the original thing. We don't all of the trim details that we have no plans to change the trim details that the change, you know that we're the you know the appreciable excuse me the appreciable change as those are those canopy roofs, but all the deciding in the trim, it's all going to read just like just like original details. Yep. And the you're going to keep the the dust, dust blower part of the old dust system on the roof there. Yes. Cool. It's not attached anything correct. No, it's firmly it's firm. Yeah, but as far as a machinery doing Oh, oh, oh, oh, no I don't think it's going to fall off. Yeah, no it is firmly attached to to the building but it is not operational at all it's not attached to any equipment. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're going to keep it because I think that's important. Agreed. So, Meredith, could you put up drawings of the canopies. Yep, we'll do. So, this is the proposed. So here's that proposed east elevation so this is the view from stone cutters way. Right. Yes. So there's this canopy here and there's the recess lighting will be under it so you can actually like see those fixtures from here. And then the, this is the, where am I that's existing east that's existing north. Sorry, post east. Why did I lose something here. Oh, so this is the existing east. So there's no canopy here. So there's going to be added here. And then existing north right now or proposed north has here's there's the flat canopy here. But here's more canopy here. That on the left, that's existing over this one's existing. So you're doing one that's sort of going to match it but it is slightly different. Yeah, there's there's a you can be in this two dimensional image it's not so clear but on that left that's actually kind of set back on the right it's actually kind of projecting out towards the viewer some so and this will be a long granite street. No, that's that's in the alley facing the lumberyard. Oh, thank you. Sorry. Does that mean you're taking down that like kind of awkward I beam sort of roof structure. Yeah, it's it's yeah it is. That's got to go. Yeah. Yep. It looks a little scabbed onto the building and may not be all that functional. It's it's was certainly not safe to use at this point. It's been kind of decoupled from the building over the years as structure other structural work has happened it's it's not it's not safe as it as it currently is. Yep. Yep, but you'll keep the we'll still keep the, the kind of big slidey barn door. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna well that yeah there's that existing area actually is kind of is wood siding right now and the sliding door and hardware is all right there and yeah we'll we'll be putting new siding up there and and plan to keep the sliding door. Yep. Great. Dan is Eric I'm assuming that you're going to use matching windows. Matching windows throughout the building. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, you know I think I'm not sure if the Marvin window cut sheet made it in that we had an original packet of materials delivered into Meredith's office before the flood and then yeah that disappeared and for some reason I'm thinking that when we resubmitted the paperwork. Meredith correct me if I'm wrong but maybe we forgot to include the Marvin windows cut sheet for the replacement. Oh, goodness. I don't even know anymore. Yeah, it's life has been all over the place. No, of course, of course, of course, and it's just on me this morning that I think I forgot to include that in round two of the paperwork. But to answer that question yes all of the windows will be Marvin windows that are that yeah that all are all of the same variety. I can't remember are they, I think you sent me the cut sheet and I think it was all were they all the six over six. They're going to be whatever they are now yeah we're not window sizes. Yeah, we're not changing the window sizes of anything. So whatever the cut of the window is now six over six that's what they will be. Say it again, true dividers in their month. No, they will be a simulated divided light with space or bar. Is this the integrity or the ultimate. It is the. Yeah, so it's it's the it's the ultimate. Okay, the ultimate profiles seem to have the best profile matching historic characteristics so Right. Yeah, that's my experience as well Steve. The one piece of fenestration that kind of I am asking for a change on is that entry door that you can see. You know, at the top of that little stair set of stairs right there. Thank you. Yep. That is presently maybe it's a I think it's a half light door and yeah there's that's going to be a new door that, you know, we'll read a little differently than the existing does. Is that like a two thirds light. I would I would call it a three quarter light but yeah something like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, the existing and you're proposing to change the direction of the stairs. That's correct. Yep. Yeah, so I'm showing existing here in the drawing. Yeah those old the original stairs that we have now back when this was you know the factory that it was, you know it made sense to orient those stairs towards the back of the building where the offices were now it doesn't really make sense to have them oriented that way and so for users of the levels, you know I'm thinking to flip that around as people will be you know accessing it from stone cutters way side. Are the stairs going to be wooden or concrete concrete. I like your proposal for the clothes pin factory those as a as a sign there and I like in in the in the band of your canopy roof. As you have it laid out there. Can you talk a little bit more about what your sort of like thoughts are is how that's being mounted or what it. Yeah, so we're actually not that's represented here, and we'll be I think you know but I Meredith correct me if I'm wrong maybe is that a different permit then we're asking for today. Sorry, you want to make sure it was unmuted. Um, yeah, I think we're gonna have to come back because we don't have the the sign application. Yeah, that's part for this we kind of slipped under the radar that the sign came in and was on here. We're going to do that separately but I mean I think that if you know I think because we don't have the exact type for the letters all of those details on this. Yeah, but this is sort of we can talk about it a little bit if the designer, you know if the committee members have some thoughts or even if they just say yes we really like it. But then I think we need to come back for this and then you and I need to talk about the sizing for your different directory signage on the building to figure out which things actually fit within need sign permits versus which fit under exemptions. Yeah, so to speak to the first question as far as the closed pin factory sign. There is a there's a similarly styled sign around the front that will be the sign for my business. And you know, I like as Meredith said we don't have those details worked out but the gist of it is it's going to be an individual cut out letter, then maybe did you make the sign for that condos building over on. The Foundry. Yeah, the Foundry. Yeah, yeah, I made something of that type of something like that but I can't speak to the details too too much yet other than they're going to be individual letters that are kind of stood off the building some amount is the is the general kind of design scheme there. Which I think is really beautiful. I also really like that you don't have a sign band behind it that the clavards read continuously. I realize that makes it a lot harder to actually install the words but I think it has a way more sort of like clean cache and sort of like reference to the historical building without because they wouldn't have had some big light. I was, I was inspired by a conversation I had with somebody, you know, somebody who worked at the clothespin factory years ago and I spent a ridiculous amount of time looking for photographs of it and I couldn't find it but there was apparently I was told by this older fellow that there used to be the clothespin national clothespin painted right on the building. I couldn't find any signs of it but or any pictures of it but it was kind of my nod to that. I agree with Ben I like it also Dan. Thank you. Meredith is that something based on the opinion so far is that something that could be administratively approved. Meredith you're muted theoretically yes as long as you didn't feel like you needed to look at the letter height. Because that's something that we don't have you know the current regulations have limits on the total square footage of signage, but not letter height. And so that's something that right now usually the designer view committee speaks to. So that's sort of a judgment call item that I don't know if you guys want to waive or not. Dan what were you thinking of in terms of letter height 1215. You know, I was going to say I hadn't thought that far ahead yet but I actually did think that far ahead and unfortunately I don't have those emails up in front of me but our designer who mocked up a couple different versions of it and I had some immediate reactions of that is too big or that is too small and in those email responses. Yeah I down what is being represented here is it I think 12 inches is the number there Steve but I don't remember off the top of my head and I wasn't really prepared to be thinking about that tonight but we mocked up a couple different versions of it and I think we did end up on a 12 inch height. Okay, was that this one as well as the one on the front was Clark construction a little smaller. Yeah, yeah. Meredith why don't we say you could administratively approve it as long as the height doesn't exceed the 12 inches. That sounds great. If you want to do that and then if the signage comes back bigger than that then we'll send it back to DRC but otherwise that's dealt with that sounds great. Dan, a number of historic districts use a formula of one inch and sign height for every 10 feet of distance that the sign can be read. So at 12 inches, you're looking at 120 feet readability. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Hi. So again if it's no longer if it's no taller than 12 inches that can just be administratively approved as well as I'm assuming if you're doing a directory sign that would be to one side or other of the doorway probably the side where the stairs are coming up. Exactly. Yes. And the same thing. As long as it meets the requirements for size. I'm fine with Meredith administratively approving it. Great. Thank you. Does anybody have any other questions comments or suggestions. Nope. Nope. Okay, if not I can write read through the criteria that applies to the application. I would design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. The removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided. Any features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved. Deteriorated character defining features shall be repaired or in this case of the siding replaced where the severity of deterioration requires replacement of a character defining feature the new features shall be replaced in kind. This will cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments shall not be approved. And this case this application is acceptable existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale. Architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities mechanical equipment trash stores and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screen from public view. Acceptable. Proportion and compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable. The visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings windows and doors in the facade of the building shall be create a rhythm acceptable. Architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of the building acceptable. Roof drainage systems shall not hide or obscure architectural character defining features and show run adjacent to building corners when possible. Acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building and compatible with the neighborhood acceptable. Windows and doors on historic structures character defining windows and door patterns placement sizes proportions and original features such as trim sash and molding shall be preserved to the extent possible. When preservation is not possible such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind. The doors that are not character defining may be replaced but such replacements must be compatible with the historic building style materials and architectural features acceptable. Orches and stairs on historic structures, the location of porches ramps and stairs shall be placed on a manner that does not impact or undermine the original and significant ornamentation or detailing them the existing building. Stairs ramps and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect and be compatible with the historic and important design features of existing buildings and new construction. Stairs and ramps shall be designed in a manner with details and materials that provide the most sensitive and compatible structure and that fits the building design and layout acceptable. All in favor of the application as proposed. Speak your names. This is Martha I say yes. Ben says yes. And Steve says yes. I think it's unanimous. Approved. All right. Thank you everybody for your work. I appreciate it as always. It'll be interesting to see the progress on this building as it changes. Best of luck. It's such a huge job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to bite it off in, in some chunks. Won't all happen at once, but it'll happen. Well, good. Thank you for coming. I think it's a tremendous, tremendous project and I appreciate the quality and care that you're taking with it Dan. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you Ben. Appreciate it. All right. Have a good night everybody. Good night. Good night, Dan. You'll hear from me via email. Thank you. Bye bye. Next slide. Let's get on to the next application for 149 Main Street. Owner Fisher, O. M. House. Applicant Woodenwood signs. Trish Peppa and Sparky Potter. Go ahead and describe your sign for us. Okay. The best way to describe the sign is to probably show the sign. I know the mayor has seen this, but basically it's, it's this, this structure. We've met with a client several times to, to determine the best lay of the land. We were certainly used the inner mob to your sound, which we had done many, many years ago as a sort of a benchmark for setbacks and how to do it in style. So we're trying to fit into the neighborhood as well as fit into the architecture of the, of the building. There's a lot of weight in the building and there's a, there's a, you know, there's a logo that's been existing for a long time. With the Gary folks. So we just kind of re-adapted the color scheme. To fit that particular landscape in that building. So we've done work for, for, for, for this time previously. And so we've adapted a similar message of fabrication that we did many years ago at Westview. So, but we were careful about trying to figure out the square footage and the setback. So it was on site a couple of times to, to measure and, and state and make sure that the location was appropriate and accurate. So I think there would, there will be no lighting for this sign. The client did not want any. So it's fairly, it's fairly uncomplicated with regards to, to, it's, it's application. And it's, it's, but I think it's, we drove by several times to the full size. So we, so I think it's been well vetted with them. And I'm hoping that you folks agree. This time was designed by the architect. And it was passed on to us. We took the same, the same font that was used on the free standing sign. And applied it to this location. They are particular on this particular case preferred a, a sort of an aluminum brushed aluminum letter per their, their taste and their sense of aesthetics. So we, we went along with that. And just, you know, sort of presented pretty much what they presented to us, except for the different font. And there's no lighting on this sign either. I do have some physical samples and I have color samples here that I can, I can flash and show to you if that would be helpful. But the free standing sign. Sparky. I saw the similarity between this sign and the one at the, you know, Montpelier. It, it looks like they'd be very compatible. Yeah. So we, we went along with that. And just, you know, sort of presented pretty much what they presented to us, except for the different font. And there's no lighting on this sign either. I do have some physical samples and I have color samples here that I can flash and show to you. Yeah. That's how we, you know, we did, you know, at least 25 years ago. But I think that the, the, the, the client also appreciate kind of the airiness of it's not, not as a, not a strong coast and beam system, but kind of a lightweight look with kind of an airy property to it. So it doesn't take up a lot of visual space on the lawn. But the lettering, we've added the lettering to make sure that they're readable on the drive by. So that's, so I think that that was a prerequisite is to make it readable. And I think it's theirs. I think it's subtle, but it, you know, people will not drive by it without recognizing it. And I think the, the client also dearly loves their, their logo. So we just had to find a way to, to make it fit into the sign, but also be kind of pleasing to look at. So I think that, that is, that's been achieved. And the colors that they have chosen, they really, they rethought the whole process of with their, with their internal team to make sure that they, these colors did not compete with the building. So that was a, the early drawings were very different than this. And I did bring color chips, Marcia, if you, if you feel the need to look at them, they're called out in the drawing, but if you feel the need to visually see what they are, I could, I could hold them up and show them to you. I'm good. This is, this is a nice representation. Okay. Regarding materials, the, the post are wood, the pressurized wood. And the background is this two and six sign foam. When you get paint on it, you really can't tell whether it's a wooden sign or other materials. So, so I realized that historically, that material never even existed. So if need be, we can certainly go back to making it a wood sign. And the, the, the, the, the, I'll tell you what was a wood sign. So that, that may be something that is worth your consideration. Basically found out over the years that sign foam is more of a, kind of a rugged outdoor material in terms of not warping and not kind of going through checking processes that are wouldn't sign some concerts. That transition has been slowly, slowly happening because it's just, it's more, it's just more stable and holds paint great. And, and doesn't have some issues that would, will have. I'm going to stop sharing unless somebody has questions and wants to look closer just because I know everybody also has these. But that way we can also sort of see each other a little bit better. Do any committee members have any comments, questions or suggestions regarding the sign? Looks like a thoughtful project to me. I have no concerns. Yes. Okay. Based on that I'll go. I can go through and read the criteria for signs in the design control control district. The size, location, design, color, texture, lighting and material of all exterior signs within the design review district shall be compatible with the buildings and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable. We're appropriate. Signing shall respect the original sign placement and sign bands on historic structures in this location. These signs are acceptable. It is recommended that sign placement be centered over building entries. And again, in this location, the signs are acceptable. Sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining materials on the building. Acceptable. The only comment and suggestion is that attachments to the building, if it's a masonry face, be in the mortar joints, but otherwise that's fine. In masonry buildings again, fasteners to be in the mortar joints. Sign design, color and typography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings. Acceptable. Sign support structures shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves. Acceptable. All in favor of the applications. Your names. Eric, yes. This is Martha. I say yes. Ben says yes. And Steve says yes. So it's approved unanimously. Do you want to describe the next step? Yeah, so it's, I mean, this one again, I'll get the, the sign form from Steve. There's no, you know, strange, strange recommendations or anything on here. So we'll get that permit issued. And then you actually, I think on your application. Have to have the permits. And then you can send it to Woodenwood signs, not to Gary home. So we'll probably mail those out for you. And then you can handle getting those, that blue notice card posted on the, on the site. Around, you know, all of their construction equipment. Okay, we'll find an appropriate place. Awesome. Great. Thanks. Thank you everybody. Really appreciate it. Thank you for coming and the signs look great. So good, good luck with your project. And thanks again. I know that we're very pleased to hear this. Thank you so much. Okay. See you. Thanks. We can move on to the next application for eight dash 20 Langdon street. Owner applicant lucky boardman, reviewing window replacement of all windows except storefronts. Good morning. Good evening. Go ahead and describe your application for us. So what we're looking to do is do an exact replacement window that. Of the curve. And look that's on the building. Using the fire. The windows that we sent the specs to. They're just simply replacement windows that go into the existing. Lucky, it looks like you're showing a double hung. Basically one over one instead of a two over one. That's just there. I don't know what some of my representatives sent it. That's just their cut sheet or template of a universal window that they sent. I can. It's the exact match to the top has the grid. Yeah, I don't know. I just sent bill of message on that because it doesn't show the top grid either. But he said that's just a universal conceptual quote photo that they use. But they are exact replacements. So it does have that single top grid. Of the window and everything as well. As a true divided light or a simulated divided light. It's a simulated, I believe. These windows are all in the second and third floor. That's correct. Yep. And the first floor remains the same as it, as it is now. Yeah, I don't lucky. I think you've been cutting in and out. You might want to repeat your answer to that one. Oh, sorry. Yes. The, it's just the second and third floor of the building, the storefront and the original storefront windows. You're, you're not doing the main and state street sides of the building. Yeah, we're doing the entire building. Just the second and third floor. The first floor is going to stay as is. That's correct. What's the manufacturer of the window? It's a Farley. And what's, what's the material of the window? Um, it's in there. The material of the window. I believe it's. I think it's just a fiberglass window. I'm looking on that RK miles cut sheet. I'm not finding the material either. Lucky. Yeah, I don't see it listed here. But I know it's not what I'm assuming it's just a fiberglass window. And then I guess my next question is. What the commercial Brown is. And I'm assuming that. Simulated divided light on the top sash. Is also a commercial Brown. Yeah, we, they suggested picking that because, uh, the building that TD bank is in those windows and those replacement windows. Um, are those to match the street? So it could be, it could be white if chosen. But I'm not sure. The commercial Brown to match the windows across the street. Cause these are like, uh, None of them been painted, but they're just lighter windows. And they have a commercial Brown looking. Storm window to cover them. So you can't really tell on half of them what they are. From the exterior. Yeah, it looks like there's. Some of them have a storm window on the set. And maybe a few. On the third. Right. Uh, this is, this is Eric. I think you should do a. By scraping on the windows and match the original color. To paint them. I don't care how you do it. Just match the original color. And not. Just arbitrarily pick a color. Okay. Well, I mean, it's, it's to the existing color. Sorry. That's why we went with the commercial Brown because it more matches the streets. Existing colors. Now I have a question for you. The, according to the information on Farley windows. The 4,000 series is a vinyl window. Okay. The vinyl is, vinyl is opposed to fiberglass or a clad. Or a clad over wood. Sash. Has any thought been given to using that window in an historic building? Well, I know when they came to do the walk through RK miles, this is, um, it was based on availability. And so this is what they suggested based on that due to the, you know, Issues of access to everything that is. So this was their best option for replacement that we could. Access and get. Did you explore it all rehabilitating the existing windows? Yes, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, is there another thing for the new windows? Yes, it's, It still allows me just a single pane of windows. So in that building. To give the tenants. Proper heating and comfort and make the buildings affordable. the building. So this is our best option to keep a affordable apartment or housing. What kind of condition are the existing windows in? Oh, they're in poor original condition. A lot of them are just painted in or non functioning. The weights are broken. Some of the glasses are broken. So I mean, the functionality is a big issue, as well as the thermal loss from the building envelope itself. So that would be easy. Lionel is not a terribly durable material. It's subject to UV deterioration and all of that. And did you explore one of the other kind of the clad windows that Steve mentioned? Yep. Again, to be able to access the windows and get something that's similar in view and look, this is what R.K. Miles suggested for their availability and something that would match the current design. It's difficult to get anything nowadays, let alone 100 windows that match. I think with vinyl, you're probably going to be replacing the windows again in 20 or 25 years. That's part of a problem with an historic building. I'm sure we just have to decide if the committee is willing to go along with vinyl windows. We've never approved vinyl windows in an historic building prior. Well, it is on Langen Street, so I don't know if the historic value is the same because it's just in the district. It's actually not an historic building on a registry or anything. I think it actually is lucky, I think. I believe they looked it up and they could not locate the historic register. It was just in the district because I know my neighbor is looking to do the same with the conversation previously. Well, I can answer that question in just a minute. Excellent. Always feel free to call me. It is building number 186 on Montpellier's National Register of Historic Places National District Registry. I can send you separately an email with the description of that building, as it's described on the National Register. But it is still on there considered a contributing structure, as are all of the buildings on Langton Street. So if you have a neighbor who is saying that their building isn't on the register as an individual building, have them call me or email me and I can give them the information. Excellent. Thank you. It makes no difference as far as the National Registry concerned whether a building is individually listed or part of a district. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that that detail was clear. But yeah, for design review purposes, it doesn't matter. I'm also inclined to agree with Eric regarding the color of the window. Lucky in that I'm looking at the white versus the brown storm window because I do feel like you're still going to see some of the white trim of the existing window frame. Even when you pull that window out, I think it will look a little hodgepodge to go from brown to white versus having the whole window be more white, which feels like the original color based on how often people get to the third floor of these buildings to paint the exterior of these windows. Yeah, I would actually prefer the white. But due to the building across the street and the existing storms, that's what we were trying to match is the current layout, but white would much easier for me. So I would happily do that. The bill matching the building across the street, you want to match as closely as you can what you've got in your building, not necessarily the building across the street. Yeah, it was just a little bit of a mix due to those storms added. So it was difficult to tie in what one. I think those storms look terrible in comparison to the windows that don't have the storms and being able to keep one more unified color versus that sort of transition would be much, much preferred. Perfect. It's easy enough to find a space where you can tell whether somewhere in that window where it's protected, you'll find be able to scrape down to the original color. And I would just, that's what I would certainly recommend. Yeah, I mean they behind those storms, I believe they're all the wider color anyways. I think that'd be perfect. And then back to Steve's question regarding the vinyl. I don't know what sort of precedent we may or may not be setting. I agree that vinyl is not a, is a lower quality window over the long haul. And but I also hear Lucky's concerns about availability. So I don't really know how to move forward with that. Yeah, I mean we researched obviously everything, you know, traditional, but the whole world's trying to find the same kind of materials and, you know, the concept is great, but we just, we just can't, there's no access to it, especially with the volume. If it was six or something, that'd be one thing, but to have a functional building that serves the each of the tenants and with that volume, this is what they came up. I mean, out there's 84 windows in the outside of that building. So just to come up with that is a task in itself. Do you know what color options there are with the Farley? There's a, I think there's a couple of them. There's like a gray or a slate. There's the brown. There's a white and there's another one that's on the website. I could try and pull up, but nothing that would be closer than the white. There's ivory, mocha, and that would be the options. What was the average cost of the vinyl windows? I want to say it was not the installation, just the material, the window itself. There's about $700, I believe, on average of them. I'm not finding the 4,000 series on their website. I'm finding the 6,500 and the 3,000 series. Well, in the brochure I have, it's on page 9, 4,000 series. It's for three and a half inch. Let's see what I can find here. I'm finding it as a Home Depot product, but not on the Farley website. I don't know, it's RK Miles suppliers, Farleys, I'll be serious. Okay. Yeah, so I can definitely use the white, which that would be nice. I would do what Eric suggested and scrape down in one of the original sash to come up with a color, whether it's black, brown, white, whatever the original is, write down to the wood and find out what that original color was and then because the different series of Farley windows, they have a number of colors to suit the building. Okay, we'll take a sample of it and see if I can get it matched at like Sherwin Williams or something and then see if I can transport that into the Farley collection. So just a reminder to everybody that under the regulations, the color isn't really something to regulate anymore, but it's definitely an option and the suggestion that the committee can make, I just can't make it a condition of the permit. Thank you. I would naturally want to get it as close as possible. Yes. Yeah, that would be great. That's definitely a lovely thing to be able to do. I just wanted to make sure that if you weren't able to or something happened that the committee wasn't wondering why. Meredith, do we have, and I should know this, but do we have jurisdiction over material use of the windows in this situation? Yeah, materials or something, especially here where the original is being replaced with something that doesn't exactly match it, that is something you do have. If you and the applicant disagree, it's got to go up to the Development Review Board. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, for my earlier comment, I mean, it's vinyl is unfortunately the accessible material. And depending on the series and the Farley series, they actually offer, again, depending on the series, they offer many, many different colors. Yeah. Everything from white, black, brown, different shades of brown, off whites, everything in between. Yeah, I will definitely take a sample of that color and see where we can match to the closest for the exterior for sure. And how do the rest of the committee members feel about the vinyl windows? Steve, I don't have access to the information. Does Farley make one that is a vinyl clad? It's a pure vinyl product. I've never seen anything other than their vinyl windows. Okay. I wonder if it's appropriate to table the application at this point in regard to the color of the windows. And I'm prepared to vote no on vinyl windows. So my question is, if other windows aren't accessible, then do we leave the units with unfunctional windows? And that's my dilemma. I mean, you know, a broken window, I can replace per se as far as a pain, but an unfunctional window. I don't know how that works. Steve, you're more familiar with Marvin and all of those windows, but they are all going to be custom made anyway. No, I know that. But the material is the issue. I just, if you can't get anything beyond vinyl, per se, as I can't, because that's what I'm told, then we wouldn't replace the windows. Is that the option? So they'd be left with unfunctional windows? Frankly, I have a hard time. It might take you some time to get a better window. Quality is an issue with historic preservation. And, but I can see you probably have a better handle on this than I do. But I can't believe that you can't get a better quality window. It might not be this year. It might be next year. I don't know. I haven't gotten any recently, but I actually got some Marvin integrities a year and a half, almost two years ago. And they were in the same price range. And that was a fiberglass clad wood window. It was the wood frame with a cladding on the exterior. And that has been universally my favorite window. But I haven't checked its availability recently. What was that manufacturer? Steve Marvin. The five brands that are depending on availability at any given point in time, the five brands that make really good quality windows are Marvin, Pella, Anderson, Harvey. And then there's another brand that RK Miles sells because I've accessed information on those through Scott Wilson, who actually goes out and measures and he knows as much about windows as everybody, at least the ones that RK Miles has access to. Yeah, I believe Bill and Scott actually came out and did my measurements on site. So all these windows have already been measured and priced and selected. So that's Scott and Bill Morvan, is who came out and did all the legwork. I too have worked with Scott over the years and is certainly a very knowledgeable person about windows and has been doing it forever. I also have a hard time believing that Marvin somehow doesn't have windows, but I would trust Scott, if that's what Scott says. Yeah, that's what I'm told. I mean, it's not that I can't get, say, four, but the problem is, is my availability to do the building. I mean, if you rent the equipment, you shut the building down, you start putting people in, you got heating systems, and Vermont's a short time. I mean, if I can get, if it takes 14 weeks to get nine of them, and I have to keep running back and forth, they're concerned and my concern is just, as everybody timing. But I will happily circle back and I can even get maybe a document stating such to present. So obviously our, obviously our options are either to approve it, not approve it or table it until the next meeting to see if there are any other options. And again, we've never approved vinyl windows in an historic building. So again, that's that's what we have to decide. I'm prepared to make a motion to table it. I would agree with that as well. I'll move that move that we table a application pending further research on the availability of windows and research on the color. Okay, in the meantime, like if you could take take the some of the colors down to the wood to see what what lived there in the past, that would that would be helpful to know. Yeah, absolutely. We'll work right on that. Okay, so there's a motion to table it. I'll second the motion. Did you second the motion? I did. Okay, all in favor of tabling the application, speak your names. Eric, table, yes. Hi. Yep. In favor of tabling as well. So the application is tabled. And till a little further research is done, and then we'll come back and address it again. So the next meeting lucky is August 21. So two weeks from today, I will actually not be in town. I am. That's my wedding anniversary week. Okay, is there somebody else who'd be able to present the information then? Let me work on that, but let's preemptively place that and then we'll work on that. Okay, because yeah, if not, then it would be the Tuesday after Labor Day would be the next meeting we'd be able to have you in. Okay, the 21st and then we'll go from there. Okay, sounds good. Thank you very much for your cooperation. We appreciate it. And again, this is sort of a tipping point because it's something we've never approved before. So certainly happy to take a look at all the options. And again, thank you for your patience. Okay, have a good evening. Yes, lucky. I want to reiterate appreciation for your patience and willing to do this work. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. We just want to do it right and we'll see what we can do. Yep. All right, thank you. Has everyone had a chance to take a look at the minutes from June the 5th? Yes, and I'll make a motion to accept them the way they are. Do I hear a second? I'll second it. All in favor of the minutes from June the 5th, speak your name. Martha. Eric. Ben. And Steve. So the minutes are approved. Steve, I might have missed it, but I don't think that we approved the agenda. And even though we've just gone through it. Sorry. So I'm going to make a motion to approve the agenda. So in retrospect, since we've already gone through it, I guess it's approved, but we can do it formally in retrospect again. Okay, well, I'll make that motion. I'll second it. Okay. All in favor of the agenda, speak your name. Martha. Ben. And Steve. Skip right over that one. We're all trying to get used to this again. Yes. Yes, I notice we keep interrupting each other. We can't help it. On that subject, is there any... Thanks a lot for coming to me. I'm sure you're really busy. Yes, it's been a challenging few weeks. Meredith, what is the status of City Hall and any sort of random pie in the sky projections and one might be back there? No idea, because they're going to have to re... That's part of the community discussion. Rate is what is the basement of City Hall going to be used for? How is City Hall reshuffled? Because there's a bunch of offices that cannot go down in there again. You had Community Justice Center, Department of Public Works, Planning Department, the team center, all of those spaces were in the basement. They all got destroyed. Everything is gutted down to the metal supports. So we don't know. But I do have a Dell Development Review Board meeting in 12 minutes. Thank you, everybody. And I will see you in two weeks. We have a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. All in favor. Martha. Eric. Ben. And Steve. Meeting is adjourned.