 Hey everybody, today we're debating anti-theism on trial, and we're starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for this epic debate. This is going to be a lot of fun, folks. I want to let you know we are very excited for a number of reasons. In particular, we have today a number of debaters who are teaming up. So this is going to be a tag team debate debating whether or not theism is by anti-theism. I'll let the debaters explain, but as a general rule we it's oftentimes defined as anti-theism means that religion is thought to do more harm than good. And so that may be I may have that wrong if the debaters want to correct me and I'm open to that. So just want to give you an idea though. Why by the way, if it's your first time here, consider hitting that subscribe button as we have a lot more debates coming up. So for example we are very excited that this coming Friday in the evening at 8 p.m. eastern time we are going to have Matt Dillahunty and Jonathan Sheffield debating who the authors of the Gospels were. So that should be a lot of fun and also want to let you know if you have a question during today's debate feel free to fire it into the old live chat. If you tag me with an at modern day debate it'll make it a little bit easier for me to be sure I get all the questions in the Q&A list for when we do Q&A at the end. Also super chats an option and by the way 100% of super chats that you send in today will be going to a good cause namely COVID relief. And so we're going to be giving that to the American Red Cross as they are trying to help as much as they can right now in terms of getting mass to people with medical workers as well as many other things. So with that very excited to let you know we're going to have the anti theist side go first they are on your left so you're seeing Robert and Amy they are a team and then Gary and Godless Girl will be going second and it's going to be 10 minutes split among each team. So with that very excited to have you all and one last thing before I get handed over to the speakers I've linked them in the description folks. So if you're listening you're like I want to hear more I have included the links to their channels down below so that way you can hear them more. And with that thrilled to have you all here thanks so much for joining us today. First I'll just say hello thanks for being here. Hello. Hello. Excellent and Robert the floor is all yours. Oh thanks uh my name is Robert Reed. I'm an atheist uh apparently I'm also an anti theist. I grew up a hardcore Christian and I was a fundamentalist firm believer six day creation type of guy on the street prophetizing all the way up until about my 38th or my 39th birthday before I just realized this this isn't going to cut it for me it just isn't. So that's kind of my story in terms of becoming an atheist and as I do more and more research and as I kind of look behind you know the almost four decade trail that I left behind as a religious person that's what kind of turned on my anti-theism in that you see some of the atrocities and I'm not saying that is Christianity because we're talking about Christianity today that's not necessarily Christianity but it gives it a pass and I think about all the teachers that you see on the news that are having sex with students we throw that person in jail we call them a predator they get locked away they have their teaching credentials snatched out from underneath them it's because they are following the law of the land and I'll use an extreme example when I say the Catholic church their priests do the exact same thing and instead of jail time being you know de-certified as a priest or anything they just get transferred to another parish where they're allowed to do the stuff over and over and over again and there's several other examples to kind of support my position but I'm anti-theist because of the damage that the institution of religion has to offer for the rest of us you got it thanks so much we'll now kick it over to Amy who will be giving the remainder or I should say who is welcome to use as much of the time that remains which is a little bit less it's about eight minutes 40 seconds and thanks so much Amy glad to have you here the floor is all yours absolutely hello everyone so for today's discussion I'm going to be talking about anti-theism on trial why theism is a superstition and why we should work against superstitions so what is a superstition well it's a belief or practice resulting from ignorance fear of the unknown trust in magic or chance or a false conception of causation why are superstitions bad well they're not based on evidence or other ways that can be verified information is often conveyed from holy text instead of testing and sometimes they block us from finding the real answer by making us think that we already know the solution some common superstitions include a lucky rabbit's foot giving us good luck breaking a mirror giving us bad luck and knocking on wood preventing injury so what exactly is theism well it's a belief that there is a conscious creator of the universe why should we be against theism well there's currently no good evidence that such a being exists or could exist there's also no reason for them to have cells that's no reason for them to be conscious also the micro claims are quite silly moses with talking bushes jesus walking on water mohammed flying over the moon meaning that theism is a superstition so one of the most popular religions well christianity is clocked in about 29 percent of 2.3 billion we got islam coming in at 24 percent with 1.9 billion and hinduism coming in third place with 14 percent at 1.1 billion so the interesting thing is the non-religious are actually tied for third and buddhism ends up coming in at fourth and we lodge everyone else in at the 13 cent in other words christianity is the world's most popular religion islam is the fastest growing religion and hinduism is the most popular eastern religion so what's the game plan well first of all i think europeans and a lot of us americans we get a little bit too focused on which religion is the worst when they all are instead we need to actively proselytize skepticism reason and critical thinking especially in the middle east latin america and africa aren't we imposing our morals well no we're not we are correct to call out chateau child pedophilia riggs we are correct to be against girls genital mutilation we are correct to be against boy genital mutilation but the proper etiquette of course is that we must love our theist brothers and sisters they are victims of superstition they are not our enemies we must win them over as family via debate and discussion in conclusion i believe that non-theists who are looking to make a difference should be anti-theists not because we hate theists but because of the negative worldwide impact of theism by acting as skeptic ambassadors we can make this planet just a tiny bit more rational thank you you got it thanks so much appreciate that opening statement from amy we will now switch it over where we were going to hear from the he could say anti anti-theists the people who would say i don't know if it does do more harm than good so thanks so much for our guests on both sides and amy once you're ready to unshare i'll switch us back into the dialogue boxes no problem if it's no problemo and with that thanks so much to gary hall and godless girl who will be going next yeah so as far as what robert said um about religious organizations an organization you can be anti-organized religion and still be a theist anti-theism isn't anti-organized religion so you could be against the catholic church and still be a theist like we have uh secular organizations that do uh like uh doctors about borders it's a secular organization but most of them believe in god so being anti-theists doesn't um the examples we do have of anti-theist organizations is things like american atheists who aren't concerned with like maximizing well-being and minimize suffering but they're concerned with is spending millions of dollars taking cases all the way to the supreme court because they're upset that some christian put a cross on a government property and uh amy talking about the the superstition look people are superstitious because they're irrational they're they're uh irrational actions aren't caused by the superstition themselves just because you drop a superstition doesn't mean that you then become rational i'd rather like amy on here said that she uh had saw she told canadian catholic and tom jump on modern day debate that she had solved the hard problem of consciousness okay just because you're an atheist you don't suddenly become rational like the idea of somebody that's categorically delusional like that like implementing social policies or something is disturbing and all this anti-theism stuff it's just all going to boil down to a moral claim which the atheist has no um ground to stick they have no ground to stand on uh it's going to be all just what they what they don't like it's all going to boil down to what they don't like right they're going to have nothing to offer today except to whine and bitch like the atheists do i'm an atheist myself but i'm anti um militant atheist because i see more dishonesty in the great debate community coming from the atheist side than the than the theoside and it's just all going to come down to let's i could grant you know i could grant um that belief in theism say everybody everybody if they believe in a deity is going to start burning puppies with cigarettes i could grant that the atheist that doesn't entail the atheist has any can make any claim about the way the world ought be what's the what's going to be their justification for we ought not live in a world where the is burned puppies with cigarettes so we should be anti-theist it's just going to boil down to their preference and it's just going to boil down to it's what they don't like go ahead gary uh i don't know how to fault that um my main problem is it's not just really anti-theism but it's with anti-theism as well because to me it tries to build down complex problems within society to one thing so it is a religious fall or it is a systemic belief in a god that is causing problem x or problem y because my position is that it's a people problem you're going to get bad people you're going to get good people uh the bad people it doesn't matter what it is it could be sport it could be politics it could be good ownership it could be whatever we'll do bad things because that's the sort of people they are now some of the things that robert brought up i thought were interesting because again the things that i'm against you know i'm against child pedophilia i'm against you know people being hurt but the thing is that's not unique to religion there's a lot of that in the secular community like i can name names i'm not going to hear that have been accused of doing bad things and it's not their fault it's bt's fault or whatever and i think you know the thing is is that we want to be fair which is that again it's on those unique people the problem is is religion on its own a harmful thing no because it can have a societal aspect that people can get into a closed community and be close to each other but also it gives people you know something to focus on like a good moral your backbone and stuff like that the problem is is that there are people who take it too far but there are people who take sports too far there are people who take what your good ownership too far are those things bad i don't necessarily think so again it's not necessarily the belief itself or the action it's what you do with it that i think so you got it thanks so much for all of the opening statements from each side so we are going to go into discussion mode now thanks so much and as a reminder all superchats going to covet relief today and so we do thank our speakers for being here helping make that possible and we also thank you for hanging out even if you maybe you're in a country where you it doesn't have the software to give a superchat or maybe you're just in a spot where you're like it's hard to give a superchat right now just want to let you know just by being here at the channel supporting it by just watching and engaging like saying hi in the super in the uh live chat that is just already a huge help to us and we appreciate you being here so with that we will go into the open discussion whoever like to lead first feel free uh godless made a lot of points and i wanted to see if i can remember them all uh you're absolutely right becoming an atheist does not make you more rational just because it doesn't make you smarter just there is no right i think there's at least there's three of us here that are atheists i don't remember getting my atheist encyclopedia when i became an atheist right so you're right it doesn't make you more rational and to piggyback off of what amy was saying in terms of uh you know the superstition world views that have a foundation in reality more times than not yield better results i think i'm even stealing that quote from somebody and so when an atheist screws up it's on that atheist right hopefully it's a learning experience from what i can tell and again nothing at least from my point of view is 100 across the board again let's just stick with the pedophilia ring they get the past because they have a foundation that is not founded in reality they will get forgiven they'll go to another parish and they'll continue to do what they do in the secular world the rules are different so when we strip away the superstition which i think is a great way to put it you can kind of start to operate in the real world and i wanted to ask godless don't you think that your that your beliefs have repercussions that people act on their beliefs that beliefs aren't just isolated things that believe people act on their beliefs yes yeah how is that relevant very well because it means they are acting on superstitious beliefs wouldn't it be better for people to have less superstitious beliefs yeah but what um at what acting on like you're you're saying is an alternative we should act on atheism what does that mean wouldn't it be better if the muslim bombers didn't believe in islam wouldn't it be better if north korea were christian rather than atheist no wait north korea rather you'd rather live in north korea than america i well first of all i that's a false dichotomy i don't consider america a christian nation so it's like a secular nation or north korea it's like i'd rather live in the secular but most of them believe in god is that being secular or the relevant well yes the most of the lay people in this country currently believe in christian we're not talking about anti-religion we're talking about anti-theism well that is anti i mean i'm anti-theism because i want them to stop believing their religion because i think it's a superstition god what most americans believe in god currently but we're we're working on that we're lowering the number how is that relevant because we're winning no we're eventually there's not going to be theists in this country yeah where it's all atheist or would you rather live somewhere else in the world where they're most of them believe in god i think that's a false dichotomy because in north korea they have to worship their leader i don't worship the government i'm not i don't worship the government and i don't worship god you can find deity is the creator of the universe they don't a conscious creator of the earth no they believe that you better listen to what i say or we're gonna put bullets in your head it's actually very motivated i asked you why are you an atheist and your answer is because well multiple reasons one of the reasons is there's no evidence but i actually because of my theories on consciousness i actually think that it's silly i don't understand why i why a floating consciousness is doing anything i don't understand why it exists i don't understand why it would be there you don't know why consciousness exists therefore i know why consciousness exists i don't know why god would have a consciousness why consciousness exists because i study it i mean it's oh i'd love to hear this how do you know what would you like to know about consciousness that's a better question why does consciousness exist because it's a rival to plants and fungi plants and fungi have a defensive mechanism they don't need consciousness we need to actually walk on the macroscopic landscape so our body needed a consciousness it is the way that your body walks gathers food gathers energy gets rid of the energy and multiplies i don't understand how you would eat how you even know that uh plants aren't conscious what do you think plants are conscious i don't know generally speaking they do not collect sensory data the same way we do they don't walk around they don't have any reason to have a conch they may have so there may be things that are like conscious like their plants may actually scream they may actually admit a low high energy frequency uh when you cut them which is cool and it may be similar to like conscious traits but to say that we are conscious as the same way as plants are so we do have to go back i hate to interrupt but we just to return to anti-theism and kind of the societal consequences though i do find this interesting and i'm being very serious about that it may be on another time we can host it but just to kind of bring us back to the main topic for today yeah i don't think that we don't know what the world would look like as uh an atheistic world would look like we'll have the example of north korea that doesn't have any societies that are atheistic so we don't know that's actually not true we do have societies to where the majority of the landscape is atheist and i think at least i'll clear it up for myself and amy can you know jump in if she has to disagree with what i'm getting ready to say and i've heard this from like christian apologists in terms of where we're talking about uh an atheistic world view or an atheistic there's no such thing atheism is simply a response to a single claim you believe in any gods the answer is no everything else is everything else and you're right you can't hang your hat on atheism to tell people how to treat others that's why my world view over here is humanism my atheism does not tell you whether i'm tall or short whether i vote republican or democrat whether i like k versus high so human what's that take humanism so why ought we be humanists how is it going to boil down to anything except you making a moral claim which is going to be what your preference is you're right and it is my preference and here's the thing i bet you dollars to don't i want to know what i'm saying other than you don't like non-humanism what are you saying other than that i did not say that i actually didn't say that at all you and you're right it is my preference it is my preference that if my next door neighbor needs help i'm going to help my next door neighbor you don't have to i'm not saying i've got the ultimate morality i'm not even saying i'm right but my preference is is to be a nice person versus being a jerk so my atheism says nothing about who i am as a person so i mean if we can just kind of put that one in the trash can that'd be great because atheists you're right you can't hang your hat on atheism it's simply a response to a claim you guys are supposed to be justifying a claim about the way the world ought to be i want to know what your justification for that is i think i think for that claim other than what your preference is which is an adjustment but it's all preference it is all preference you're just you don't like it you're on here to debate you're on here to say you don't like atheism with no arguments and i don't believe in subjectivity i think they're wrong because they don't have evidence so it's not subject i don't believe in subjectivity i don't believe in relative well i believe in general relativity i don't believe in i'm not a moral relativist none of that stuff but godless you're giving your preference in your opinions as well that's all any of us have are preferences and opinions what am i right all the only preference i've said is i point out i'd rather like live under a christian theocracy than atheistic north korea godless can i ask why you don't believe in a god how is do we really i mean i can get into that but i don't it's definitely not going to be for the same reasons yours is but i don't think that's right maybe i'm actually kind of yeah test us of why i don't believe in a god yeah um well it's not going to be the like the atheist saying oh there's no evidence for god or richard doc is treating us like social justice warriors just answer the question so we don't go too far off the subject uh and one also i don't want to be too controlling of where the conversation goes but i also we haven't heard a ton from gary yet so i do actually uh it's because they've been talking to godless and i didn't want to interrupt because i've done it would be rude all right go ahead no no it's fine because i don't ask you a specific question and again if you want to answer that subject again like because again i can't answer the reasons why you're don't believe it to you if you want to do that to the that's fine but if you don't mind me jumping in after that that's perfectly fine i'll read the thoughts once that question okay you guys want me to answer why i don't believe in god sure sure it's gonna be a conceptual issue with uh uh a being creating the world creating the big bang which is when time started when uh it doesn't make any sense to say that god created time because then god would have had to existed prior to time which is uh just in coherence just gibberish i couldn't agree with you more what i could not agree with you more i did what i said i doubt you could like restate it back to me so you just stated that it doesn't make sense that a being would would start the inflation event right why and that we just said yeah i'm asking you why i'm not i gave my why because an inflation event is a thing of gravity and generally speaking no no what do you mean no it's not it's not repulsive gravity had nothing to grab god could we could have been saying god created a world with no gravity in my mind no i'm saying i'm telling you the inflation event is there doesn't matter it's a repulsive gravity event it's um but i don't know how gravity is relevant to my objection i know you know but that's okay i'm talking about a universe with no gravity what i'm i would that that my objection would still apply i was gravity but i'm saying it's a force of nature and beings are normally high level things that take billions of years to get here at least from what we know oh that's not anything like i said well no no i'm now i'm adding on i already said what you said didn't yeah i'm not playing what you added on was all relevant to my claim but but you but didn't i just say what you said no you started talking about gravity you started talking about inflation well no because i talked about a report that's what i'm that and shon shon carol believes that the it was repulsive carol believe i knew you okay well he's a physicist so what i don't know i was just trying to repeat what you said fan of godless i said it doesn't seem like you're a real big fan of atheists no i hate atheists but you are one right okay this is gonna spin what's your problem with us and by us i mean one two three atheists the uh you know the cognitive dissonance that i see you guys having debates then let's go with the cognitive dissonance what do you mean by that christians and you'll like walk walk away cheering like you're a champion or something when you get walked over by theists all the time theists win the majority of debates against atheists okay okay if that's the case why are you not a christian i well i just gave my reason which you guys just totally went over your head i just gave one of my reasons for not okay because you're really coming off with an attitude i don't think that's necessary you i you say you're one of us but you're dumping on us and and you can sit and you can sit there and say that about both sides hold on godless you can say that about both sides when william lane craig debates uh christ an atheist this what's gonna happen everyone who went into that auditorium rooting for william lane craig is going to say he dog walked the atheist every atheist that walks in is going to say the exact same thing i used to be one of them what's that i used to be one of you which uh and then what which uh i think contributes to my disdain for stupid atheists because i used to be one of them okay then what's your definition of a stupid atheist what is your definition of a stupid atheist i want to give uh robert and amy a chance to defend themselves and then i do think we have to go back into the question of whether or not religion is more harmful if possible okay we could if you guys want to come back for another one we're i'll jump into that right now i'll jump in that right now why uh religion is more harmful okay but if godless wants to go or gary wants to kick in i'm sitting here as i said i i'm the law i'm the law religious person in this chat so maybe i'm more absolute godless to defend my own position you can't tell go ahead sorry well it's true i ain't here again i said i'm alone i'm a christian but i'm a quaker so i'm the i'm the law religious person in the cause so i hold a god belief so again like uh i would ask avian robert what harm am i doing to society by believing i'm not hurting anybody i'm not raping anybody not stealing from anybody i'm what i'm what do anybody any harm i go to my church and we do a lot of work for the poor and the homeless in my society the thing is is that again you're taking what fundamentalists do and again i will agree with you if they do harm there are people out there who do religious based harm but again saying that the catholic church this catholic church excuse me has changed its things recently the other people restoration which hasn't happened for what 200 300 years so again they are trying to address these issues but again it's not as simple as do you think x again it's a systemic thing and it takes time to fix what have you got systemic anything in it if you've got systemic abuse it takes years it's like the systemic abuse in the prison system it takes years of reform and going back to try and fix these things so is it not reasonable to like give them the time with a more reasonable person like paul francis who has addressed these things and says we need to fix these things these things are in our back walls we just need to bring in the policies to police these things and i would say it's not you personally gary i think you're probably an amazing guy you sound nice you've been a gentleman so far it's not about you personally to me it's about the macro claims and what we're trying to do as a people it's not that each individual and that's why i tried to point out even though the label is anti-theist it's not that i'm against you it's that i'm against theism it's that i see i from what i can tell there is no evidence for this being and the belief systems that they make and i think that overall it does a net negative more than it does a net positive because i think that individual religionists do tons of good things i'm not going to knock anybody for doing their works being a kind and gentle person it's just i think the person who did that was you not the religion and what i'll say is um gary i don't know you you did an interview with lilith and peter if i'm not mistaken i thought it went well i i i truly hope you're a good guy my problem with it is that every christian thinks they're it's always not their church you know what i mean so when you point x y and z out that's atrocious it's never that person's church they're never that type of christian and it's always the moderates that will keep an ideology aligned because if christianity was just pat robertson uh west borough baptist church the numbers would be cut in half by tomorrow morning it's the moderates that keep this thing going and yeah you you don't need religion to be a good person and so every time ten christians stand up and say i'm a christian you're adding logs to that huge forest fire right and it just won't go away and it gives it more power you don't need atheism to be a good person i never said that i never said i actually just said that three minutes ago you're right my character has got nothing to do with my atheism it's just like when christians say well what does atheism offer in a hard time it's like not a fucking thing it's also like saying what does geometry do for you in a hard time not a fucking thing because it doesn't address that it's simply do you believe in any gods the answer is no everything else is everything else that's it like a deism is a form of deism a deist just believes in a god created the universe and there's no organized religion the god doesn't intervene at all they don't even have to believe in an afterlife what's the problem with the deist what's your problem i'm not talking about deist i am talking about fees anti-theism deism i how about this i am talking about christianity in general because i live in the united states and that's what i'm surrounded by god i'm talking about that is what i am surrounded by deists could be anti-christian you're saying that you're against deism why are you against an anti-christian deist i never once said i was against deism this is the second time you put words in my mouth and that's not how it works anti-theism defend anti-theism anti-theism i'm pretty sure both me and amy already have anti-theism entails your anti-theist who is anti-christian and so i'm against deism because there's no evidence for deism so i mean it's the it's the nicest version of the superstition i mean it's just going how little harm are you doing well the deists i mean the least amount of harm but it's still a stupid i mean how how much trouble are the people who are knocking on wood doing to society not very much but if if all the sudden we start creating a knock on wood society and the knock on wood people start governing our laws i don't know what that means then do you know it do you know the superstition knock on wood no i mean what somebody says oh they supposed to be looking like they they knock on wood so they they say oh i've like that was the one superstition i used to have so i can relate to it that i've gotten rid of is that you know i've never broken a bone before so i say that out loud and people go oh you better knock on wood and so i mean that is what theism is to me just a different form okay but i i would argue it's because it's based upon different things it can be based upon one's experience because some people have said again i've never experienced this so again i can go go that they've actually seen it and that's that's what we go by we go by ad senses now you could say some sort of psychological problem but again they are taking that into into account some people like myself have gotten there for a reason for you're studying the literature and i think it isn't necessarily a superstition it's a faith which is that it's based upon a trust that god exists because again i admit and i'll freely admit now i can be correct because i'm a human being and we're proud to ever i'm we're proud i'm we're proud to ever ask you but aren't you too aren't you too proud to ever aren't you proud to making mistakes and making inferences when they're not there i don't i don't i don't that's the the whole point i'm trying to get across is that we're all we're all edge in our bets i hate using that term can i ask what your definition of faith is uh for me uh religiously based faith is believe that god will exist as a entity that exists in the world well i want to say the world i mean you do you but that stands for universe because again if i start my new shy into beyond the university again i could go into my scientific theory of where the god comes from but then we'll be here all day i don't do that but is it just a belief or is it just i mean normally correct me if i'm wrong but normally what i get is the belief without evidence the belief the thing the evidence of things unseen i hope it's not seen yes wait that's the whole thing about faith because i can't prove that i can't go to like the university of majesties or i live in majesties so i'm using it because it's one of the biggest universities in the world i can't go to university like just to put god will draw a microscope because if we caught then this whole theist debate wouldn't be necessary because we'd have an absolute answer but isn't it it's based upon no because again it's based upon philosophical philosophical ideas it's based upon inferences we have in the world so again it's a taking of what we know and taking from that now there are things that you could say our superstitious like for example the whole thing of maybe holding the rosary can be a superstition i'd say probably not because it's probably more of a habit but again we could discuss that as a minutiae the problem that i'm having the problem that i'm having is that again the things you mentioned before about the pedophilia the stuff like that happens in secularism and is just as defended in secularism now if it was not you probably would have a point but it's and i'll give you a perfect example david silverman was accused of having i think it was raping some woman dog having sexual assault with somebody no evidence all it was was a claim by three different women and he lost his job in america atheists and had to resign from another organization just because some woman said that he sexually assaulted her yeah but the the point the point i'm trying to get across is that there are the atheist communities but the point i was trying to get across godless was that there could be bad people doing bad things but i think it's when they're on our side of the fence and i hate using that term we tend to defend them but we tend to defend more what they say and do then is there another side like i've seen people defend horrible stuff that that i don't believe it will save well if i don't even believe it was to say it they're not holding the same standard and i'm guilty of this so i'd ask the other two is the reason that i don't believe or it said that you both find where we report that see my thing with that is like robert said it's not that secular and religious people don't do it we have a problem with the fact that they seem to have known and not reported it anyway that they not only did they know and not reported in any way they knew didn't report it and then help move them around so it wasn't it's not just like it because of course it happens and it's going to happen the secular anyone because we're human the problem we have is that religion seems to give people this rain check like i don't understand i do do okay it probably could but there are not many reasons i can imagine for why anyone would cut a woman's or man's genitalia beyond biological reasons in the doctors and religion it always seems to be religion you don't think that atheists circumcise their children uh well i think atheists circumcise their children because we have been we have a religious influence right now i don't think that we would circumcise our children if it wasn't for the uh does christians it's not atheism that's and i i gotta keep going back to this do atheists circumcise their circumcise their kids no i guess no robert and my kids won't be circumcised can you just said the only reason that somebody would circumcise their children is because of religion or something doctors which isn't the case because we have atheists circumcising their sons all the time but why it's not not because because christians it's not because christians it is i never said christians uh this one this one's on the jews that has gained traction in this country and again you keep hanging your hat on things that are atheistic robert do you agree with her that the only reason people circumcise their children is because they're religious or because i very rarely use the word only and i will let amy you disagree because she's a grown person only making a truckload of sins right now and i'm saying what i think is the reason why in america the reason why in america people are circumcising is because it has gained traction from a religious practice i'm not going to sit here and try and trap amy into a yes or no and use words like only i'm not going to do it i'm not playing that game so it's because of their culture which happens to have religious backing it's not only because of religion they're religious i mean that just means it's complex and i mean i'm sure robert and i would agree with you that it's complex i mean i mean maybe i'm incorrect but it's actually become more of a aesthetic thing now that a lot of men choose to do it to make it more aesthetically pleasing i'm not saying that's right i'm wrong with the that's as far as i i'm understanding that it's called three practices to do very good elegant i'm from britain so we don't i don't know many men who did it but let me tell you if it was 18 year olds doing it like if the choice was at 18 they had to do it i'd be all for it the problem is that they're doing it to babies without a choice if at 18 they're like time to get circumcised babies atheists are doing it to their babies without a choice not because okay but do you think they're wrong do you think those atheists are wrong no i don't but i'm not gonna i'm not here to debate child i do that's what i'm saying because i think it's a religious influence i see you yeah well it's irrelevant i'm i'm pointing out that you said the only reason they do it is because of religion and it's not yeah i would say it's a jewish practice i would say that the christians in this country have picked up a jewish practice that i don't think they have any reason for them being jewish where does it come from okay where does cutting the tip off a mens genitalia come from where does that come from because i'm anti-theist answer the question you'll get your answer what where does cutting the skin off mens genitalia come from where did that concept originate i don't know it's probably i'll help you that doesn't mean that they're doing it in virtue of being jewish what does it mean like gary said some people some atheists are cutting their baby sticks because for aesthetic reasons not because thank you i think we have a good reason for anti-theism though isn't that a good reason some people are cutting their baby's dicks for aesthetic reasons what a perfect baby time to chop what how is this i don't see this being complicated i know i don't thank you robert i just think godless you're making this a little bit harder than what it needs to be you robert do you think that the atheists are cutting their baby's dicks in virtue of jewish i've already said that yes i'm pretty sure there are atheists who get their kids circumcised for aesthetic reason there's a religious traction i was born and raised in locker rooms i've been playing sports since i could crawl and i can be the first one to tell you the guy with the uncircumcised crank gets destroyed he's different there there is definitely a societal pressure with conforming and circumcision and that's just one of the examples so yeah i'm pretty sure atheists circumcise their kids it is a religious practice that has gained traction in the united states that's why people still do it and for us when an atheist does it it's probably out of societal pressure to make sure that your kid fits in when a religious person does it it's because they read a book that says by the way see this kid that's been born intact and perfectly whole go cut some skin off of his dick now when it like i said before when an atheist does something it's on the atheist when someone who's religion religiously based does something it's on their religion i can learn from my mistakes tell me how much religion has changed in the last 2000 years my sister just got married four years ago she's gay that was a religious based initiative they have not changed and they will not change so you want to know why i think it's for stuff like that yes sorry sorry you're doing regardless but again you'll see stuff that isn't true that religion hasn't changed in 2000 years it has because again like um all right uh i'll give you a prime one if you'd like do you know irad say that irad irad yeah right now before 19 what 1981 i'd say 1982 i'm thinking we're all that part um the muslims of that were very much moderate muslims in that they were having dream parties they were having like you know mass gatherings they were having a good old time and they guess who joined they wanted to join the party the americans and they decided that they wanted to they didn't like that they didn't like the fact that the people the person who's charged wouldn't do business with them so what they did is put a religious based leader in there and she changed the society of that now that's a negative one positive is that again um you know the reformation changed christianity quite a lot in quite a lot way that divorce wasn't allowed before that in a lot of christian countries um a lot of things about for example um the priests allowed to i think recently um i think that the pope says he's up for for a priest getting married uh there's really a lot of things that i can say okay like for example i'm a quaker mainly because we were what my push is behind the abolition of slavery i that's the one reason that i'm a quaker because again i know i'm c1 as well again it it depends what you mean by religion as it changed because it has but okay you know what very correct also you're right so one i like two i'm gonna walk back what i said just a little bit because i agree with you on those points so i won't say it won't changes kind of but but the progress that religion has made is so far behind everyone else right and so i remember when i think it was pope frances when he got appointed and one of the things he said was i still remember because my phone was blowing up oh we love pope frances he said atheists can be good people do you know who else has been saying that every fucking atheist on the planet since the dawn of time and now here we are in 2000 whatever and someone finally said they're okay he said that gay people were okay every gay person and every gay ally on the planet has been saying that since the dawn of time and so me personally i'm not going to sit here and give the catholic church or any church an applause for doing something they should have done years ago to me it's the equivalent when not my three-year-old takes a dump wipes his backside washes his hand and comes out and daddy i did it i'm going to say way to go son when my son turns 33 and comes out and says dad i washed my hands after i poop you're supposed to right and so i'm not going to give the church credit for doing something that should have been should have never happened in the first place and again to go back to what me and amy have said from the get go superstition hurts and when you're superstition when they're your man in the sky makes you call that gay person a faggot tell them that they chose their sinful lifestyle by the way you can't get married you are less than the person getting married and divorced 27 times there's the problem there's the problem so yeah has the church made some strides gary i will give you that you're right they have changed but they are so slow i'm not going to give them a round of applause for that no i don't think i don't think any organization should look for your applause but i i would say that i get like the the catholic church was initially like that or the roman church should have said that because again like the initial christians were were this overbearing you know thing what they were were people who would do good things and then if people wanted to talk to them about why they would do these things would talk to about christ to the old message but they did that it won't be the thing it is now where it's forced it down your throat constantly and i think that is what causes the contempt in my view so i mean the thing is is that um there are again i'm more i could argue that there are religious people doing harm but the the problem is is that there are religious people doing good are you seeing to see well the religious people doing good it's not something we should take into account but we should because again it should balance it out excuse me go ahead amy do you want to go or and yeah i have two questions uh for you again one you said that the quakers were opposed to slavery which i could i could probably give you the majority of quakers were opposed to slavery but would you also agree that during the time the majority of christians were using the bible as proof that slavery was moral and that they were just a lot of christians were doing that yes and would you agree that there are passages in the bible that support slavery yes i i mean that that is that is the most honest and quickest i have ever seen a question give those answers the other question was then just moving on to homosexuality would you also agree that our passage is in the bible that say to put homosexuals to death uh it's second second says yes but that's the old testament uh i want to hear that i love that saying but that's the old test for any reason assuming they haven't committed a capital crime here in texas because we'll kill you by the middle of next week you hedge so i want to know why you think it's okay to kill a homosexual just base and let me clarify just based on the fact that they are attracted to the same gender what sort of things do you need to put that person to death i want to know that i don't together we should put to death i could i want to desperately so i would get but i think she just asked that well wait let me if i'm wrong yeah first of all gary didn't say that but what what argument do you have that they are not they haven't done anything wrong that's why what's wrong is it just going to boil down to what your preference is which i've already said that and i will never hide the fact that it is my preference i'm a big argument are you just here to tell us you don't like it i you're right and you know what i am i'm going to sit here and tell you that i don't like rape i teach women self-defense i'm around rape survivors all the time and you'll never guess what i think rape fucking sucks that's my preference i don't see this being a really difficult conversation you're right that's my preference i prefer women be able to go to the grocery store to work to the gym hang out with friends do whatever without being raped that is my preference the question is do you have a problem with that well if i if i'm debating you about anti-theism i don't have to grant that rape is wrong right i need i'm asking you for an argument for it i just gave you my argument because it sucks for the woman who's being raped argument you're right it's kind of a conclusion i don't want the women in my life or anyone to be raped that is why i teach them how to fight you're right that is my preference and if you don't like it or if anyone i said this earlier on twitter yes it is my preference that we live in a rape hold on that we live in a rape free world that is my preference right you don't have to agree but if i catch someone violating somebody boy girl man woman child i'm gonna stop her right so let's grant let's grant the theism entails everybody rapes everybody right why let's and let's go that escalated quickly let's just grant for the sake of argument that theism entails everybody rapes everybody that's not an argument against anti-theism that's just saying you don't like rape that's not an argument wait wait wait you say that again that theist rape people are anti-theist rape people what's your argument let's this is the defense against anti-theism let's say hold on so let's say theist rape people now keep going let's say everybody who's the theist rapes everybody Okay. That's not an argument against anti-theism. That's just saying you don't like rape. And am I making sense? Am I? Why are we 10 minute argumentation on rape? Rape fucking sucks. That should be the end of the sentence. I don't get it. Isn't an argument against it. What's that? You saying something sucks that you don't like something isn't an argument against it. You're right. It's a conclusion. I think rape is bad. Why is this a 10 minute conversation? What is the inference? That rape is bad. Bad? Wait, now what does bad mean? It's causing harm to somebody else. You don't like it. Why is harming people? Why ought we not harm people? Why don't we ask the person who just got raped? Let's ask her or him how they feel. I don't understand why this is such a difficult topic. And I said that at the beginning of this debate. It is my preference. It is my preference for people to be safe. Yeah, but why should other people... You don't have to. That's just it. You don't have to. You're just here to say you don't like anti-theism. You don't have any arguments against it. Can I ask you, are you against rape? Yeah, but I don't make the claim that it's morally wrong or that it's morally bad. I do. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't make the claim that it's morally wrong. What is bad mean without morally wrong? What's the argument that rape is morally... I believe in biological morality. So the fact that you are violating someone's will... You're making a moral proposition. What's your argument for that? Yeah, my argument would be that you're violating... You're violating the... She's gonna say why is that bad. Watch. She's gonna say why is that bad. Yeah. What's the argument that it's a moral proposition? But that's what the basis of what things are, man. Other than what you don't like, what's the difference between saying you don't like that and you don't like the flavor lemon? Because the flavor lemon is like a personal truth. It's a preference. I don't know what's meant by personal truth, but it's a preference. And I also, and I actually don't actually believe even in you liking lemon. I actually think that if we were to go back, if we were to clock the time... So let's take that example. Hold on one second. I hate to interrupt. I just want to let you know. I'll give you a chance to respond to me, but I do want to let people know, as well as you guys, that we are going to go into Q&A soon. So maybe about three to five minutes. Thank you, James. I want an argument for moral propositions aside from what you like and what you don't like. Yeah, it's not based on what people like and don't like. It's based on the physical and mental harm that it does to people because that's what ethics and morality is. No, you can't say that harming people is morally wrong. That's a moral proposition. I just did. We just did. What's the argument for that? Why is harming people morally bad? I'm sorry, Amy. Because it is the definition. It would be like saying, why is killing someone not good for their health? Well, it's killing them. Moral propositions is saying what we ought and what we ought not do. That's what a moral proposition is. I don't believe that. I don't believe in should statements and not statements like that. I believe. When you make a moral statement that we ought not rape, you're not saying we ought not rape? I'm saying you shouldn't rape because you are violating their biological. And she's going to say, why is it wrong to violate other people? What you're actually asking is, why should we be moral? Why do we have to be moral? What does moral mean to you? Moral means when you are not actively going against someone's biological well-being. I don't know what that biological, what's meant by the. Do you think that it's moral that I cut your head off? Look, I think that a moral proposition is saying what we ought and what we ought. Yeah. That's what I'm asking. Do you think I should cut your head off? I don't think that it's true or false that you ought not or you ought cut my head off. So you think it actually could be a moral statement that I just randomly cut your head off? I don't think it's true or false. I think they're just people talking. That's what I'm asking. Do you think it's moral that I cut your head off? I don't think it's a true or false statement. Because basically what you're saying is we can't actually criticize the Muslim bombers, right? It could actually be good that they blew their flue claim into the trade center. Saying something morally is morally good. Are you a morally, are you a moral realist? Do you not believe in... You're not a moral realist. You sound like a moral realist. You sound like the SJWs that I think you don't like. I'm seeing the opposite. No offense. Moral propositions are neither true or false. They're just your preferences. Neither true or false. They're just... So you're a moral realist. You just believe in preference. Whatever feels good. That's not what a moral realist is. A moral realist? Okay. What is your definition of a moral realist? Moral realists are like, uh, divine command theorists who are saying that it's objective. Moral objective... No, they are saying it's objective. That's the opposite of moral realism. Objective is mind independent. So they're saying it's good or bad independent of what anybody thinks. A moral subjectivist is saying it's... Yeah, so it's not subjective. That's what... I don't believe in subjectivity. I don't think it's subjective. So I agree with the theist. I don't think it's subjective or objective. What do you believe it is? We're gonna switch pretty soon here. All right. It's the one thing I agree with the theist thought. So maybe we can... Might be a good time in case you have any last things that you guys wanted to mention before we do go right into the Q&A. Anything at all? Yeah, I'll just tack on to Godless because I think we've been saying this for an hour. At least I know I have. You're right. It's my preference. It is my preference that people don't get beat up. It's my preference that people don't be raped, murdered, have their shit stolen from them. It is my preference. And I'll tell you the exact same thing I told that guy that I was tweeting back and forth with. You're right. You don't have to agree with me. You don't have to agree with me. But actions have consequences. And to piggyback a little bit off of what Amy said in the very beginning, which I thought was brilliant, your beliefs do inform your actions, right? So I mean, I believe women should be able to go home and be safe. My action is I teach self-defense and you don't have to agree. You don't have to agree. But actions have consequences. And if I find someone hurting someone I care about or just hurting someone in the general, it may be the last mistake they make that day. And you don't have to agree. But yes, it is my preference that people remain safe. All right. It looks like that might be a decent time to switch over into the Q&A. So really do appreciate all of your questions, folks. All of your super chats as well. We're going to get right into it right now. So got to make this short and sweet as I've got to teach in about 35 minutes. Dwayne Burke, thanks for your super chat, said no one has the right to say what someone believes. I'm confused. He might be trolling. Thanks for your super chat. MeleeTime who said, join the Tom Unbox's Discord. And then in parenthesis he says, this is cringe. Gotcha. Sorry, guys. Well, maybe they're talking about me. Okay. Dwayne Burke, thanks for your super chat, said, because you already pre-assert God is not real, that in turn means you are opposing a fictional character. Now that is a delusional standpoint. Can we respond to that? Yeah. Okay. So you're right. I'm not fighting against a God. I'm fighting against his representatives, right? So far the Christian God has yet to come down here and do anything effed up to me or anyone I know. But his followers on the other hand do. And so to say that I'm delusional, because someone read in a book that gay people shouldn't get married, so they pick it outside of a church when it should be this couple's happiest day of their life. Yeah. If the Christian God came down here and cleaned things up, maybe I would listen. So I'm not delusional. I'm fighting against his representatives. And when God wants to come down here and talk to me and everyone else, I'll pour the guy a drink. So no, it's not delusional. I'm fighting against God's representatives. A God I don't believe in. Can I respond to that? Yes, you may, Jeremy. But are you not following? Because some of his is more stringent representatives, though. Is it more of his? And I always use a sports analogy for what I'm about to say. Now, people say it's about the analogy, but I don't think so. Now, do you follow any sports, Robert? Oh, yeah. I love sports. Okay. Now, there are typical fans who just go to a sports team just go wear a t-shirt round and round. And that's the end of their day. So they go to work and then go back. And that's their release for the weekend or whatever. Then there's some people who take it that much more. Gets like t-shirts on the wall or whatever. There's a second tier. There's a third tier. You go there to be a drunken asshole. I've ruined it for everybody else. Basically, that's the fundamentalist and the idiots in Christianity. They go there to ruin it for everybody else. Because again, most Christians aren't like what you're saying. I don't care who people choose to sleep with. Because again, it's not my business. Again, if God said to make, if God cared about it, he wouldn't make gay people in my choice, in my opinion. Again, I don't care who you choose to sleep with. It's not my business. Those two that are my business, it's my business. So it is when it starts to interfere with my rights or vice versa. So would you say it's more reasonable to be anti the people that you talk about, the more pushy fundamentalist types than people like, not just myself, but the majority of Christians who aren't like that are Muslims even. Most Muslims are trying to bomb you or trying to kill you in any way. Most Muslims are peaceful, loving. They'll come to your house and have dinner with you and they go and do Ramadan or whatever. And that's their life. They don't come to hurt anybody just like that. They're just part of society. I dig it. Do you think that? I actually respect the hell out of that question and that analogy. And so here's my thing. Again, I'll say this for probably the 10th time. Atheism says nothing. It's just a response to a single claim. Everything else is everything else. Now when we talk about Christianity, in this case Christianity, I live in the Bible Belt so I'm going to stick with Christianity. Christians have a book and I'm glad that you seem to be LGBTQ friendly. Way to go, man. And I'm dead just when I say that. Way to go. But there is no atheist handbook that says if a man lies with another man, as he does a woman, what he has done, it's an abomination that we put to death and their blood will be on their own hands. There's nowhere in atheism where that's written. Again, everything else is everything else. So my problem with Christians, in this case Christians, is that they actually have a book that espouses that. Now, you sound like you are different, which is great. But you are one out of how many other Christians that are going to go pick it outside of a church when a gay couple gets married. Just because we do have to keep moving because there's a lot of questions yet. I just wanted to say, I don't pre-assert anything. I would say I've come to this by now with a collection of evidence and I'm asserting it. And I would also be saying, I'm open to being wrong and always open to being wrong and presented new evidence to change my position. Gotcha. And thanks, Ella Bar, too, for your super chat who said, is it best if people held to only literal truth? Literal truth? I don't know if they mean things that you can empirically verify that everybody agrees on or if they mean something different. I'm not sure. I think he means a lot of people, a lot of humans take a lot out of metaphor. And in fact, a lot, if the Christians were to take a lot of what they said literally metaphorically, I would give them a lot of credit. Like, if they were to boil it down to like the nice kindergarten, Sunday school version of Jesus, I mean, I'm all for the nice guy. Gotcha. Thanks so much. Appreciate your super chat from Jen S said, love it. Some people finger point on Twitter and some actually take action. Thanks for donating today's super chats to COVID-19 relief efforts. That's a, well, first, to be fair, those aren't technically mutually exclusive. You could do both. But we do strive to, if we're going to put our energy into it, we do have a vision. We do want this channel to hopefully make a positive concrete down-to-earth impact in the world. And so that's why we do these. Like once a month, we will do these. And so thanks for that encouragement, Jen S. And thanks to the debaters for help making it possible. And thanks to everybody out there for kind of joining us in this vision of both having like truly tolerant debate where we have controversial views, sometimes the most controversial. And at the same time, we're trying to hopefully use the channel as a vehicle for concrete positive change in the world. So thanks folks. We're excited about the future. And Dwayne Burke, thanks for your super chat, said, religion is abstract. It doesn't harm people. People harm. If you won't respond to that, you can. Amy? I mean, it's the ideas themselves. So, you know, the idea of Christianity or Islam or Judaism or any of these religions isn't going to physically hurt something. It's that these religions, because they were made by humans, has both good and bad stuff. And so we're always going to go through and take out the good and, you know, we're going to go, oh, we said these nice things on the Sermon of the Mouth. We're fine with those parts. The problem is, is that when you treat a human book like the Bible that was made by humans and inspired by humans as divinely inspired, you are now going to take all the bad stuff as if it was divine, when we should be just picking and choosing the good stuff from that book to begin with. Gotcha. Thanks for your super chat from our dearest friend. I almost feel like taking that back. Let's see. Michael Dresden, some of your super chats border on libel. So I'm not going to read them because those people aren't here to defend themselves. Let's see. Jen asked, thanks for your super chat, said, so they're coming at you Rob. Jen says, so ignorant Rob says, the Bible says to call people fig. I think that they need other words. Oh, I actually did not say that at all. I actually did not say that at all. He didn't say that. I did not say the Bible said that. And in all honesty, Jen, I think calling them the F word, since we're going to be all clean, which is fine with me, is kinder than the prescription for homosexuality in the Bible. People will get over being called a name well before they get over being stoned to death. And if I'm going to respond a little bit to the previous question, one Amy knocked it out of the park. She doesn't need me for this, but part of my huge problem is that we wouldn't raise our kids this way. If my had a son who every day came to me and said, dad, I'm not worthy. Dad, I'm such a horrible person. Dad, I was born just bad. I'm dad, please. I'm so sorry. Dad, what did I do wrong? I would take my kid in for counseling. That's Christianity. And I'm talking about Christianity because again, I'm in the Bible belt, but we wouldn't raise our kids this way. So if you want to know what the harm is, you are taught from day one that you are lower than a snake's belly. I do have a problem with that. Gotcha. Thanks for your appreciate your super chat from stupid whore energy who says you're wearing too many clothes in that sauna. Very funny. That's the running joke is that I'm in a sauna. Appreciate it. The Chad, thanks for your super chat who said, thank you for the debate and thank you to all of the debaters. That was a nice one. Welcome. Thanks for saying something nice. Next up, we have one of the standard questions going to go for it. Thanks for your question said. Question for Godless girl. If she disagrees with atheists, why not drop the hostile demeanor and engage with them to convince them of her arguments? Does she think hostility will help? Well, I wasn't here to actually, I wasn't, I didn't have a hope of like convincing the two atheists that militant atheists on this silly or anything. I didn't have hope of the, but it's not, I'm not against atheists. I'm against militant atheists. That's, I guess, what was, I'm not sure I understood the question. I think they're saying like, why, if you're trying to Why are you going hard on us? Exactly. How about that? That's just my, that's just my debate style. I'm always Okay. That Rob starts to don't take any personal offense to it. I don't. I don't take anything personal. I thought everyone was good. Yeah, today is like, pretty, like it was a pretty baseline in terms of our how he was a one-on-one debate sometime with Amy about consciousness. Absolutely. Go get him, Amy. Vice D. I like it. I will tune in for that. I will tune in for that. Dwayne, Dwayne Burke. Thanks for your super chat who said T jump is my ma'am. I don't know if they meant ma'am or man and James is my dad. Amen. Well, thank you for that, Dwayne. Appreciate that support. And let's see. Anonymous trans. Thanks for your question. James said, particularly I'm in middle with what I believe in because I don't know. Can we acknowledge that both sides have its bad apples and bad, etc.? I already did. I mean, sure. Again, atheism, and like I said for the minute and time, atheism is simply a response to the claim. Everything else is there. Everything else. Could you find a serial murderer who does not believe in God? Yes, you can. You can find an Atlanta Falcons fan who's a serial murderer. It's got nothing. Everything else is everything else. Bad apples on both sides. I'll kind of agree with that. But there's a difference. Go on. Yeah, I'm an atheist. Look at me. What's that? I'm an atheist. Look at me. I'm atheist. Left-handed and crippled. Look at me. It's funny because it was just a minor amount of sarcasm. So you could almost take that statement, Godless, as what you just said is literal. Because you are an atheist. Gotcha. Well, thanks so much, folks. And thanks again for your questions. We can't get to all of them, but just to wrap up in time. And anonymous trans, thanks for that question, by the way. Do want to let you know, folks, no matter what walk of life you are from, Republican, Democrat, Christian, atheist, if you're part of the LGBTQ plus, no matter what walk of life you are from, we do hope you feel welcome at this channel. And so we have had a great time today. This is honestly doing these streams and getting to listen to these debates and just engage with everybody. Both the debaters and the people in the chat, it just really gets me in a great mood. So it's a really fun time. I want to say thanks too much for our speakers for being with us today, as the speakers are what make the channel fun. I mean, we really appreciate them coming on. And then thanks everybody out there in the live chat, just for whether it be just kind of chilling out, watching, or if you're engaging and saying hello or debating, really appreciate you being here. So that with that, I want to say thanks one more time to our speakers though. Thanks for being here. Yeah, everybody. Nice to meet everybody. This was fun. Rad, take care, folks, keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. And then by the way, I forgot to mention, when we do these charity drives, which is like we want to have as much transparency as possible. So I will send the donation receipt to the American Red Cross for the COVID relief. And I will send that receipt to the speakers. And that's just for accountability and record keeping purposes. But if you're new here, if it's like your first time and you're like, can I see it too? Absolutely. No joke. If you if you email me at modern day debate at Gmail, I'm willing to send that to you. Even if it's your first time here, we just want to have that like legit transparency and accountability where you can actually see they're actually following through and that way if you want, you can go back and count every super chat and see if it adds up to the total on the donation receipt. So that way you can keep us accountable. So with that, I want to say thanks so much, folks. Hope have a great rest of your day. And we will hopefully see you our next week. Are we doing the ending things? I hadn't planned on closing statements for this one just because that's okay. But we just because we had kind of wrapped up with a discussion with a good point in terms of jumping into the Q&A. And I do want to mention too. I forgot folks that this Friday at EPM, Matt Dillahunty will be here with Jonathan Sheffield debating the authors of the Gospel. So that should be a lot of fun. Hopefully we'll see you.