 Hi, this is your Saptan Bhatia and today we have with us once again guy Martin director of open source and standards at Nvidia Guy is great to have you back on the show swap. It's great to see you again Yeah, and today's topic is something which is close to our heart, which is open source open source program offices Before we jump into this broader topic since you have a long history your long background in open source So I would love to hear from you just tell our audience about your open source history and background I guess that's your polite way of saying I'm old now. I've seasoned a bit in the industry quite a while Yeah, we both have the great hair But I've run open source program offices and efforts at a lot of different places US Department of Defense for a while The precursor to what became red hats open source office helped start Samsung's open source program office ran an open source program office at Autodesk been a lot of different places, which is both cool and Interesting again makes us seem old, but it's been it's been all great experiences And I took a kind of short detour to run an open source and standards consortium called Oasis open for a while to about two years And since you are here, I would like to hear your definition. How would you define open source program office? I think an open source program office is kind of the central nexus of An open source open source efforts in an organization and it what I've learned in being in a lot of these different open source program offices Is that there's not one size fits all it can be very very different depending on the needs of the organization? Samsung for example, we had centralized resources that worked on open source projects that were really critical and key to the company I've been at other places where it's more of a concierge style model where you do you're basically a Place to do to come into training. You're a place to come and advise other parts of the company But a lot of the work happens in a decentralized fashion So it can be a lot of different things, but I think it's really if I had to define it in kind of one phrase It's that central nexus of open source activities in the organization if you just look at your own history your own career graph You mostly work in large organizations, you know who do have much more mature actually the fact is that a lot of companies They are embracing open source. So even the large organizations, they may still have a very nascent open source, you know strategy in place But but when we do look at you know open source program offices Are they critical to a company of a specific size or it doesn't matter whether your large organization is small You should have that approach, you know, I think it's interesting I've been asked this question before and I don't have a precise answer other than to say that at some point With your company is small enough It's going to be too much process and too much heavyweight, right? It's better to have your engineering teams engaging directly with with the open source Communities that they're important that are important to them. I think once your company starts Contributing and using a lot of open source and a lot is kind of relative, right? It's more about how much open source you're using and thinking how involved you are Rather than necessarily the size of your company, but obviously you get to large organizations the size of Nvidia and others You know finding out how you help manage that that open source presence and you know Be an advocate for open source inside of your organization and then also be an advocate for the organization within the open source community I think it's that's kind of where I think the sweet spot of a lot of open source program efforts lies I'm pretty sure that you know companies they have the right motive They do want to become very good open source citizen But can you also talk about that not having an open source program officer not having an open source, you know strategy What are the risk companies might run into so that they should Build, you know, at least start somewhere with open source, right? And the way I would phrase this is open source usage in organizations is not about altruism, right? It's we've said for a long time. It's about enlightened self-interest You participate in these open source communities. You use open source because it's valuable for your business, right? And so I think not having Some sort of open source strategy You don't have to happen of what source program office immediately but not having some sort of open source strategy that you can kind of understand How you want to engage with the community? What kinds of open source you want to use? You know a lot of companies start from the licensing side, right? Licensing side we need to get licensing right and we don't want to be running a foul and being sued and and that's fine And that's great, but it's not it you shouldn't stop there, right? You should understand sort of, you know, what open source projects are critical to your business and then figure out How involved and engaged you need to be in those communities to take best advantage of that? And I think that's where having a solid open source strategy about what open source is important to you And how engaged you need to be in that community whether just consuming it right and keeping up with what's going on or contributing changes back Contributing a lot of changes back setting the direction of that project There are some open source projects that you just need to really consume effectively And then there are some that are going to be key and critical to your business So you need to actually engage In a way that you can help set the direction of that open source project For the benefit of your business as well as the entire community. Let's look at the Look at it from the benefits also that having an open source strategy brings a lot of value to organizations As you rightly said, there may be a lot of projects They don't need a lot of but there are a lot of projects If you're actively involved you can it's not necessarily influence the project But you whichever direction you want you have some kind of stay there So let's also look at it the benefits of having open source program office. Yeah, I mean, I think once you get to be Either the size of an organization that's going to naturally use a lot of open source Or you're an organization that may be smaller But it's really engaged in a couple of really specific open source projects at a minimum having that open source strategy Remember having an open source strategy doesn't necessarily equate to having an open source program office It can and usually the open source program office is critical in setting that strategy But even if you're a smaller org that's just starting to participate in you rely on You know kubernetes will pick or cncf pick one of those you need to have An engagement model in mind into how you're going to work with that community And I think the benefit of having a strategy open source program office Is it gives you a place as an organization to think about that strategy? and to Sort of depending on the organization size meld together the different strategies for different groups that may have may or may not have The same interest in a project right one group may need Just to consume that project whereas one group may need to Help drive the direction of that project And so having an open source strategy and or open source program office Is really the place where you can start to have those discussions that maybe span multiple projects inside multiple products or Engineering efforts inside your company and as you have worked with so many different companies in different rules Can you also talk about you know, is there any typically specific role of open source program office? Or does it really depend on the organization? I think again, it really depends on the organization, right? I found that there's not a one size fits all I find that there's a lot of value in both sort of Again being the advocate for Open source within an organization Maybe there are parts of the organization that need a little bit more Guidance and again that concierge model and then there's also kind of the external Value of an open source program office in reaching out and making inroads with certain project communities that you you may need And then there's also kind of what? What we used to call it samsung kind of a sensing function, right? So I think that open source program offices and this applies to open standards as well Can be a place where you have people with the right technical background Kind of looking out a little further down the road to say hey There's there's a standard or there's an open source project that you know is going to impact us at some point And you don't waste a lot of engineering resources on having you know engineers necessarily following those discussions But you have someone like me or someone who's in an open source program office that goes And kind of searches those things out keeps track of them Does a little bit of kind of intelligence gathering if you will and then Brings that information back in and shares that with the appropriate groups inside of the organization Can you also talk a bit about you know, of course, you know different organizations? They approach it differently, but Are there some like core basic functions of a successful open source program office and if just What are those? I think the main The main kind of core function I've always thought of for an open source program office is again coordination Right when I say it's the central nexus. It's it's the coordinating It's a place you can go have coordination in terms of What is our what is our open source strategy? It doesn't have to necessarily come from that open source program office But that open source program office should be Working hand-in-hand with business side with the engineering side kind of bringing those two groups together and being that coordinating That the place you can coordinate Those decisions. I mean sometimes the decisions again depends on the organization may come directly from management may come You know bottom up, but I think Having a place that is is kind of the place where all those things try to come together And you try to make sense of what your open source strategy is is a is a central function Education is a key piece, right? I mean, I think if I had to break it down it's advocacy education And and a little bit of a little bit of marketing if you if you really want to get down to it, right? I mean, I think that's kind of what one of the functions of an open source program office ends up being is is being that voice That that place that that people can go. Okay. I want to know what's going on an open source that company x Oh, okay. They have an open source program office. That's a good place to start It may not be you know, that open source program office may hand them off to a specific Engineering team if they want to know more about what's going on in the company But it's kind of that central place to start Can you talk about how should open source program office engage with the Larger open source communities because the fact is there is no one community a company may be engaging with a lot of different open source projects So talk about the right way to improve Engage with these communities. Well, I think that's kind of the where I have tended to find myself In roles that I've gravitated towards which is you know, I wrote code for the first half of my career And now I joke that I only wrote right code that annoys my poor partner when the lights don't work in the house So I have an engineering background But I understand the business side and I think that's again really where the open source program office can engage with communities Engage with open source communities and say hey, here's our business. Here's kind of our Reason for being interested in this community and here's our business goals And you know, how do those map to the to your open source community? And if they don't map, okay, great We've identified a conflict that we need to address but it's really Being again being an advocate for that for the company and sometimes as you know, right There are companies and and I've worked for some that haven't had great reputations and I think part of the open source program office and And that kind of role is making sure that you dispel some of the myths that are out there potentially about Company X and and what their reputation is and how they have or haven't done a good job with open source And working with those open source communities to to be again that advocate for the organization to say hey Yeah, we're not here to you know for for purely altruistic reasons We're here because we were in light. We have enlightened self-interest We're in we we're interested in this community because it benefits us But we also understand that it has to benefit the rest of the community to remain healthy If you look at open source program offices, what are the main challenges that they face today? Well, besides lack of resources, but I think that's that's common for all of them I think, you know, it's it's a it's a challenge where they have to understand Intimately the business needs of their organization, right? They have to be wholly in tune with what's going on inside the organization and be be able to disintermediate You know different challenges that different business units might have again One business unit may need an open source project just to to consume it One may need to set the direction help set the direction of it And what happens if that one business unit is setting the direction of an open source project That is counter to what that other business unit that is just consuming it needs, right? So there's I think managing kind of the external excuse me internal expectations of what these open source projects are about is a big part and a big challenge for for open source program office folks, but but also again And navigating misperceptions and and things that the the community may look at a company and judge it based on its past Actions which may or may be justified may be not justified, but regardless, right? I think It's almost open source program office folks are I best describe them almost as an ambassador They're an ambassador kind of from both sides and and sometimes being an ambassador, right? You you're going to get you're gonna get the slings and arrows of either the open source Community or your own organization and and finding a way to to be that effective bridge and ambassador I think is is the key critical role for for any good open source program office person I have one last question which is more about your advice for open source officers I think keep something in mind that if you go back to my description of an open source program office person as an ambassador It's an ambassador that has to understand Not at a super deep level all the technology involved But has to have credibility with technologists and credibility with business people Right. I think that's where I have ended up finding My niche and a lot of other folks that I know that you and I both know in the in the open source program office community There's there's kind of a reason we joke that there's about a hundred or so of us on the planet We all know each other because the skill set to do this Is not one that I've ever seen taught in universities because again, it's it's part understanding the business and being comfortable You know speaking on camera being comfortable speaking at conferences being comfortable Addressing senior executives and explaining to them these values But also being able to sit in a room in a room with engineering Engineers and go okay. I I truly do feel your pain. I understand what you're going through I I may not understand the technical depth of everything you're doing But I understand you're having problems getting you know resources to contribute from my company or from any other company So it's really that that sort of mixed skill set that I think You know as open source program office Folks in the community We really need to start cultivating because I know I learned it right It was very much a learned thing for me that I kind of fell into this and ended up Having to learn a lot more about marketing and a lot more about business execution and strategy and a little bit about sales Right because sales strategy drives a lot of how you you interact with open source communities and what you need for your products And how you how you need to draw that line around, you know, what do you open source? Versus what do you keep proprietary right? I think that's the other piece In all of this that that open source program offices get asked a lot is where's the line? What do I make proprietary? Where do I keep proprietary? What do I make open source? When do I do it? When's the right time to do it? and so all of those things um are kind of Just part of the job and you know it ends up being I think one of the most interesting and challenging parts of the job for me Guys, thank you so much for taking time out today and talk about this Important topic today, and I would love to have you back on the show. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. It's awesome. Great to see you